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The Coworker Meltdown · Sunday Scaries: Work Edition

• 0:03
  Welcome to the Sunday Scaries Work Edition, a podcast for hot takes and real talk on all your workplace quandaries, hosted by two burned out girl bosses who've seen it all.
• 0:13
  I'm Bijal Mehta. I started my career building warehouses and super fast delivery for the Internet's magical two-day shipping. I've worked in Africa, Asia, Europe and North America with both big tech and startups. Over 15 years, I became a vice president leading drone delivery operations. I've managed more than 500 people across the world. And these days I raise my playful daughter and chat with my good friend, Emily.
• 0:37
  And I'm Emily Tao. I got my start making coffee as a production assistant at CBS News. Eventually, I became the first director of communications at the largest entertainment union in the U.S. and Canada. My 15-year career, and counting, has taken me from red carpets to political fights to Ivy League admissions offices.
• 0:57
  We're here for your weekly dose of workplace reality. Let's jump in.
• 1:03
  Hey Bijal, I got a question for you. Yes, what's your question? This is not a submitted question. Okay. Do you know your Myers-Briggs personality type, your MBTI? To quote my good friend Emily, “Get out of here!”
• 1:21
  It is, I read somewhere online. It's like, it's your star sign, but for MBA bros. It's like astrology? Yeah, astrology. Like, what's your sign? What's your MBTI? Oh my God. I think that's an apt, I have- Look. Do you know yours? I, I don't? What do they stand for? I've had these very different results.
• 1:41
  There's like extrovert, introvert, sensing versus thinking, judging and feeling. What's the last one? Perceiving or something. I do all of those things. Yeah. I judge hard, I feel hard. Yeah, I think, me think good. Me think good. I'm definitely, I definitely took- Okay, there was for a while that this, this term got popular, I think “ambivert.” Have you heard of that? Yep, yep. Yeah, so then I was like, I'm an ambivert, which I think there might be something to that. I love people. I get a lot of energy from people, but I'm also so awkward.
• 2:17
  Oh, you can still- Especially around new people. It's so fine to be awkward. I'm so awkward. And so being awkward drains you. So then you're like, what are you? Does it? I don't know, I feel like I'm not awkward and I get drained from being around people. I think you're an introvert. I am definitely an introvert? You're definitely an introvert. But I am also, I can be very charming. No, no, you're- Which makes me a sociopath. I was going to say, makes you a great dinner companion. That too. That too.
• 2:42
  All right. Our question today is a little bit longer. Just read it out loud. Okay.
• 2:48
  “Dear Sunday Scaries, I had an older male co-worker lose it on the phone and scream at me. He talked down to me and said things like, “Who do you think you are? You don't have this authority over me!” And while it's not the first time someone's gone bananas on me, it was the first time I received that from a teammate as opposed to someone on an adversarial team. It was also the first time someone that old yelled at me and I kind of froze.”
• 3:18
  Not laughing at you, with you. Okay. “I handled it then, but would love to dissect alternative approaches. I worry he didn't actually understand that he can't speak to me like that. Also, though, the way he yelled at me did make me wonder, “Are you unwell?” It was concerning how unhinged he got.” Oh my God. “Signed, Frozen.”
• 3:41
  Oh, poor Frozen. I have been yelled at in the workplace by my coworkers, teammates, subordinates, boss, every direction because the work culture. I worked at a labor union and it was very old school and very masculine in a lot of ways. I actually have not seen Mad Men because the first episode I saw was so, like, 1950s sexist. It was very triggering, I imagine. There might have been some crossover.
• 4:13
  Anyway, I have been yelled at, except I'm a pretty high conflict person. And so either I yell back or I just pretend it doesn't phase me. And that was some, those were some habits I had to unlearn at future jobs because yelling at people in the workplace, slamming your hands on the desk, those kind of like, kind of aggressive, violent behaviors was all fine. And then later you'd be like, sorry, man, we're on the same team. And then you keep working together and it just, it just happens. It was just understood. This is how the people who work here, mostly men, express their feelings, mostly anger.
• 4:52
  And were you fine with it as well? I didn't like it, but it was like, it was my first big job. I started in my mid-20s. So it was like, to work here, I have to accept it. I'm not going to change it or I quit and I give up this very big, impressive job, which was, at the time for me, a great opportunity. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 5:14
  But I certainly didn't like it, but it helped that I could adapt to it. I could be that person. I could be aggressive. I could be a yeller. I could be high conflict. And they tolerated it.
• 5:26
  Right, so it’s like- I think they preferred that over feelings. It was easier for them to handle. So you didn't love it, but you were also like, “Well, then I can get away with my bad behavior too.” Exactly! Yeah, so me in my 20s, same emotional maturity as these men in their 50s, 60s, 70s. Okay, so it worked. Yes! Because there was, like, a harmony there. Yeah. There was a maturity harmony. Yeah, our dysfunctions matched, so it was great. Our dysfunctions matched. Yeah.
• 5:54
  So that has happened to me. So you’ve never been in this scenario where you, like, froze? Have you ever, like, frozen when someone does something? I don't think I have. My immediate reaction is to yell back. I think the other part is living in New York: I worked in New York, I've lived in New York for a long time. And when you have street harassment, you know, there's several responses. But mine is always immediate “Fuck you” right back.
• 6:18
  And again, I don't think that was the healthiest way, especially not in a workplace, not the healthiest way. Maybe not even healthiest way in the street. There's no right or wrong way. Sure, sure. But for me, I felt like I was just ready. My body was ready to fight, which probably wasn't great for my nervous system, but...
• 6:34
  Yeah, and I have had people on the phone. “Do you know who I am?” Those kind of threats. And later I would learn, oh yeah, Patrick always says that. Did he say that? Did he use that line with you? So you also learn not to take them so seriously when it happens over and over.
• 6:48
  Uh-huh, the workplace gossip. Exactly, yeah. Oh... Oh, that's interesting. Again, not healthy. Do not advocate. Well, you said there's no right or wrong, so maybe not the most healthy, but- Yeah, I don't think I would run into any sort of training or company culture where they would be like, “We're pro-yelling at people when they make a mistake here,” right? Okay, yeah, were there any trainings against this or policies against this? How did HR take this?
• 7:18
  HR was not great. And I think the organization was small enough that HR was not built out enough to apply protocols consistently. Let's just say that. Yeah, yeah. And that's, I think, a common thing. That's common. It's like you got the policy kind of on paper, but you're not really enforcing, so you're not really creating a culture around it. Right. The consistency.
• 7:43
  And there was also different cultures where, if you were more executive level, you had more tolerance for that kind of behavior because you were doing negotiations. You were maybe bargaining with an opposition party, and so it was very clear there's an enemy side and there's our side. So internally, we could have had bickering, but when we had to go up against someone else from the outside, then we were a united front. And then, that really helps when you have people who are willing to fight for you on your side. That same energy could be really beneficial.
• 8:14
  Well, so do you actually think there's a categorical difference between the way that people yelled there and, like, how- Like, it almost is coming across to me like it wasn't personal? I think- It was just like how they communicate. Yeah, I think the intention of the yeller is it's not personal. This is just how we do things. Okay. This is how we do business. This is how historically it's been done and how it's always been accepted. Unfortunately, of course, being yelled at, you're going to take that personally, right? Like...
• 8:45
  Yeah. And for me, when I started, I didn’t come- it's called, like, “coming from the craft.” So a lot of people came from working in Hollywood, working on TV shows, working in entertainment, and a labor union is made up of people in the workplace. It's just a collection of people in the workplace. It's not really anything special, right? And you're all agreeing and having an understanding of the workplace is really important when you're negotiating contracts.
• 9:09
  And so that's okay on the stage, right? Yelling at each other is pretty normal. Sometimes you're just yelling to be heard. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was going to say! It's very different than in an office. Yeah. So there's a lot of crossover and I think some allowance for that there, some understanding for that there. But me, I didn't come from the craft. I did work in television, but not too long. Television is also very different from the stage and from theater.
• 9:33
  And so, that's the other part: I also was not a big, strong man. I was, like, am a petite woman, right? And so yelling doesn't become fun, I think, when it's not someone that's your size, your generation, your same kind of background. Yeah. And I think for them it would feel very uncomfortable.
• 9:51
  No, that's a really good point, is that, like, when does yelling turn into that feeling of a threat- Right. Versus just like communication, self-expression? Yeah. And maybe like, and communicating probably, yeah, anger and frustration, to be clear, right? Yeah. But, like, when does communication turn into more of like... To me, communication is maybe, let's define it, at least for this conversation, is like there's a mutualness to it. There's an equalness to it.
• 10:22
  But when it turns into more of a threat dynamic, now you have a power imbalance. You've got, you know, it's not actually about the words being said. There's like power being communicated. Yes. That's when we get into bullying. Yeah. But on the surface, maybe you're just seeing two people yell. You're just seeing two people yell, right? But your point about, like, size differences, age differences, maybe like hierarchical power position differences. Right.
• 10:49
  Yeah. So then for the person asking this question, that detail, that this person was an older man. Yes. And that this person was supposed to be a teammate but then is saying things like, “Who do you-” You know, what was it, like, like, “You don't have authority over me.” Like, you know, in a very like, yeah, “You don't have this authority over me. Who do you think you are?” There's something very demeaning about those words. Yeah, especially when you're supposed to be a peer.
• 11:18
  Right. Same level. Exactly, exactly. Like they're trying to pull rank and like try and like out-alpha you or something. And you're like, that's not what this is supposed to be. Like we're supposed to be teammates. I mean, it sort of betrays quite literally that that individual doesn't have respect for... Or has some sort of simmering resentment for some reason. Right? Which is chipping away at that respect, right? And so, yeah, it's turning this into more of like a power dynamic from someone you don't expect it from.
• 11:47
  You know, I do expect to have a little bit of that outmaneuvering, outranking dynamic with other teams. Because it's like sometimes you're fighting for over the same budget. Sometimes, you know, you literally have opposing goals. Like it can be a little bit adversarial on purpose. Kind of like the legal system, right? And so like, yeah, I definitely have a lot of experience with that.
• 12:09
  I have been yelled at like this person before. Oh, say more. Yeah. Oh, God. It was an individual who was unwell, in my opinion. Oh. Oh, no. Was bringing a lot of like resentments that were stewing in lots of areas at the company to their job and to how they were showing up at their job. But was also somebody of a certain generation that you cannot defeat that. Which, which generation? Which generation? Which generation were you and which generation was their- ? Let's call it- he had grown children, you know, employed and grown children. Okay.
• 12:48
  Right? And so... But it wasn't just with me, which I didn't always know. So, you know, props to workplace gossip! Let me just, I just feel like I want to give a shout out to workplace- Sometimes that's helpful for not taking this stuff personally! Right. So maybe one thing I'd tell to Frozen is go check notes. Oh, for sure! Who else is this person doing it to? Get, gather your intel. Yeah, gather your intel. Like, right? Don't take it personally.
• 13:20
  Yeah. Definitely don't take it personally. And go gather your intel and just see what else might be festering there under the surface with this person. But yeah, no, this individual was... Like, it happened multiple times, actually. And one time in a very public setting, the yelling, and it was bullying. There was threats that accompanied the yelling. Oh my God. There was a threat to harm people on my team because he thought he had the ear of the CEO. And, yeah, it was quite ugly.
• 13:53
  So I've been yelled at a lot. Like at Amazon, it's also a little bit operations culture. Like, you know, you're in a warehouse, it's noisy, you have machinery. Yeah. So I think it's like maybe similar to like you. Like, I actually found that to be fine. Yeah. Because I never felt like I was being yelled at. I always felt like they were just yelling.
• 14:13
  Like they were yelling at the problem. Yeah. You know, like, “Why are the numbers so bad? Why are the numbers so bad?” Or like, “How can this not be fixed already?” Right. And they're getting enraged. And I'm like, “What do I do with my kid?” I'm like questioning. Like, I do raise my voice at her sometimes. Because it's like she knows! Like she knows the rules and she's still drawing on the floor, you know?
• 14:34
  I think it also depends on how people handle it after this happens. I think emotions can run high in a workplace. Good point. Especially if it's a stressful project. You spend a lot of time there. Sometimes your personal life, I mean, often it affects how you show up in the workplace, right? And so I've been yelled at before. And later the person will find me and say, “I apologize for yelling. I just had, this really stressful thing happened.” And, you know, and all was forgiven and they knew that they were inappropriate in yelling at that time.
• 15:03
  Right. But not everyone kind of repairs and I feel like that's such an important thing. No, that's a great point! Because you're maintaining long-term relationships in a workplace, this is not something you can drop. Right? And you have to keep seeing these people, keep working with them.
• 15:19
  Absolutely. I mean, that's what they say in a lot of the more modern parenting content, is that you don't have to put so much pressure on yourself to not like lose it with your kid. You, wWhat you want to focus on more is the repair. And you don't even have to get repair right 100% of the time. You can get it right- “right” slash do it 30%. It's like baseball stats. Like, it's not nearly as high. The thing I know, I don't know anything about baseball. You don't know anything? Which is good. Baseball, I don't know much either, to be honest but I love the phrase. Because it's just like it's not 80-90%. It's like less than average. Okay. You don't have to hit the ball. Hitting the ball 30% of the time is amazing.
• 15:58
  Oh, I had no idea. So, like, yeah, yeah. That's baseball stats. Hopefully that's correct! Please correct us if that wasn’t- Don't correct us, I don't want to learn anything about baseball. If I don't know anything now, I don't want to learn. Baseball has gotten more fun, let me tell you. Okay, that sidebar, putting that aside.
• 16:19
  The repair piece, though. They say in parenting that like, the point of the repair is really at the end of the day to sort of like have some alignment and narrative with your child. Because your child doesn't understand because they're a child. Right? And so they don't know necessarily the greater context that you were like low-energy that day because you had a bad day at work or all this other stuff. They don't know.
• 16:42
  They see things in a, sometimes a smaller way than you do. And so they're like, “Well, I, it must have been, Mom was yelling because it literally was that I did this thing and this thing was bad and it's me.” Right? And like maybe that's all there is to the story, right? But the point is, like, y'all should be on the same page about it. And you can- and the other point is sort of to, like, make sure they know that, like, whatever the situation is, yelling has more to do with, like, my capacity as a parent and where I was emotionally than it is about the situation, actually, right?
• 17:18
  It's like our own wiring. And so, like, maybe I'm OK with that fact I yell, maybe I'm not. But it's like, they need to know that, hey, I did yell in that moment and I chose to do that. And like, I'm kind of sorry I did. Yeah. Or I did yell at that moment and I honestly needed to because this was a safety issue. Right. And so I'm sorry if that was scary for you. But, like, there was a reason I did that, okay?
• 17:41
  Now, would you do that in the workplace? Would I do that? With adults that are not your children? Oh, God. Right? Would you extend that same grace or...? Courtesy? Yeah. So this is where I'm a bit of a hypocrite at work: I 100% did do that and would do that with my team members, the people who reported to me. I would not do that with, like, peers or bosses.
• 18:09
  Would I do it with peers? In the same company, but not on your team. You know, that's not true; I have apologized to peers. Okay, I have a thing about apologies, actually. I- Or, like, let's call them repairs, really. Like, I... I will do it even if I know the other person is going to interpret it as, like, they won and I lost.
• 18:31
  Like, I, I, I'm a little bit principled about it and kind of snobby about it. But I'll just be like, you know what? I don't think I did right. So I'm going to say I didn't do right. And so that I can move past this because that's, like, my principles and what I've decided to care about. And I don't want the job to change me.
• 18:46
  But I actually feel like it, you cede power in the workplace when you apologize to peers. That is, I feel like that’s such an- Not to- To your team members, you gain respect, I think. Like the people who report in to you. I feel like that's such an old school way to think about it, coming from a place where- But I work with these old school people! Oh, that's true, yeah. Yeah. I think it’s, it's not, like, it's not how it ought... But it's, like, fundamentally the culture is based on, like, the common denominator.
• 19:15
  It's not me. Let me, I mean, I do- As much as we started talking about, like, leadership training and everything, like, never got it but have a ton of empathy, read books a lot, like, have developed my own, like, style. Like, I've put a lot of effort into my leadership in a way that I think other people don't. Right. At my sort of peer level being, like, my working group level. Right. And so, like, the common denominator of the leadership culture isn't me. Yeah. It's them. Yeah.
• 19:49
  Hmm. That's tough. And it's, when a work culture is established, it's really hard to change. Are we saying that you have to yell in the workplace? This might not be, I don't think that's the norm. I don't like it. Yeah. I took that from my first job to my next job, which was in an academia workplace. And it did not fit.
• 20:09
  It was not good that I was yelling. It was not good that I was aggressive. Uh-huh. Even if I wasn't yelling and I used a tone, that's just not how they did it. And they were all kind of indirect communicators. And they would never, like, straight up say no to something. Right. Yeah. It was always kind of like, and so I had to relearn how to navigate those conflicts and how it presented. And that was really frustrating for me because it just felt... It felt like it took so much longer because everyone was so indirect about what they wanted and what they didn't want to do. Oh, yeah. That would frustrate me.
• 20:42
  Yeah. But it was interesting because I came from a place where everybody was very direct and immediate. So aggressively so. And sometimes they were like, this is obviously the right action, no research needed. And then going from a place where we were like, “We need to research for a year before we decide an action to take, and that's not even execution. That's just deciding an action.” Oh, my God. You went to two extremes, didn't you? Very different extremes. And I will overall say, I'm like, it sucks that you get yelled at in the workplace. I don't think you should get yelled at anywhere.
• 21:10
  However, this is with the understanding that we're all human and you have feelings and you have things that happen and you're going to carry that with you. But what does it mean to not be a jerk? And what does it mean to have to work with someone in a long-term relationship like you do with a coworker, even if you're there for a year or two and that's not long on a workplace level? That's long on a “seeing a person every day, every weekday” level, a year or two.
• 21:37
  And I think it just creates a better work environment for everyone. It makes it easier to disagree and to have conflict when you're not yelling and being yelled at. Yeah. Yeah. And how to handle it? I mean, tell on them. Which didn't really work, it doesn't always work. I love your ideal. I'm just not convinced it's most people's realities.
• 22:02
  And I think like at the end of the day, there's like a practicality to this question. Yeah. Right? So let's go back to the question. What would you actually tell Frozen? They're asking for alternative approaches. And I think there's an emphasis on making sure the other individual understood they can't speak to them like that.
• 22:23
  Yeah. I think for me, how I would have handled it, especially since this person was supposed to be on my level, it would require a follow up conversation. I would hope that that person is mature enough to realize and initiate that conversation with me and see where it goes. But if not, I'm like, well, there are a few talking points that we would have to cover, which is: is there repair, right? Like, does this person, does he acknowledge that, yeah, blowing up at someone like this on your team is not great. Blowing up over something that’s not - where you’re yelling “Do you know who I am?” or, you know, things like that is kind of wild in a workplace. Right.
• 23:03
  Yeah, just all of that is- So a follow-up conversation where they make it clear. Yeah. Yeah. Is going be necessary. And I think if you don’t feel comfortable having that one-on-one conversation with that person, which is totally understandable, neutral third-party. Could be a great co-worker, could be HR, could be someone else. But to have that in the room also could be like a calming or stabilizing presence. Right. And I think that’s fine as well. But this is, yeah, necessary to have a long-term working relationship with these people.
• 23:36
  So interesting. I think that... I almost am like, can we spend another half hour talking about this? There’s so many layers to this. Yeah. And I don’t think my answer to Frozen will be complete. Yeah. But I want to, I want to steal yours. I do love the idea of saying, “Hey, a follow-up conversation.” You don’t have to get it right in that moment. You can freeze in that moment, and you don’t give anything up by doing that. So you know, they said they handled it, I don’t know how far, you know, how much in the past this was but like even now they can still bring it up, I think. Yeah.
• 24:13
  I’ve definitely done that with people and it’s- and I would even recommend, I actually love having those conversations, those uncomfortable feedback conversations, which is really kind of what it is, is it’s setting a boundary and giving feedback on the phone. Hm, how come? Love them on the phone.
• 24:29
  Because I don’t have to police my facial expression. Because I can go on mute and shout all I want because I don’t like how they’re saying things. Because I can be bored because you’re usually going to be defensive for the first ten minutes. Because I can take- okay, another thing I do when I do this is I take, like, literally verbatim notes because it forces my brain to look at what they’re saying and not create a story around what they’re saying and then I summarize what they’re saying because everyone loves to be validated.
• 24:58
  Oh my God, how many alpha males I’ve been able to, like, calm down by just being like, “So what I heard was this, this and this” and, like, quote back their exact words. And then they finally calm down and are, like, maybe have this opening to admit that they were like, “Yeah, I guess I didn’t handle that right, like thank-” Wow. You know?
• 25:17
  But it’s exhausting. So, I do think there’s a second step which is like first take care of yourself before you think about this, right? And it’s- because of the situation, you might, it might trigger something from your past, something from, you know, just like, and they might have actually been kind of threatening in the way they screamed and yelled, right? Yeah.
• 25:37
  You describe this individual as “truly unwell,” so I’m going to say this was a really extreme situation. So I’d say take care of yourself, get yourself in a calm, collected state, like, like, just take- don’t take it personally, you know? Find some trusted confidantes, let it out, like all that kind of stuff. Right? Like take care of yourself.
• 25:59
  Consider the feedback conversation and, and some- these like techniques to maybe help set it up to go well. If this person is really behaving like this in the workplace, you should 100% know and embrace that you are more mature than they are.
• 26:17
  Yes. I think embracing that is so important because that also means for you, acknowledging that for me, this is not about right or wrong. For him, it might be. Right. But I’m beyond that. Yes. And I think that’s very freeing. That’s very freeing and extremely important because you have to validate your own power in this situation, right?
• 26:35
  So your power lies not in the right or wrong but in, like, how you choose and where you choose to put your energy around this. Because you can also just play some damn politics and report that fool to HR. Which is not a bad choice. Not a bad choice, not a bad choice at all, right? And sometimes the right choice. I mean, I had that happen, like... When I- One time, an individual went way too far, it definitely, to me, crossed the threshold of bullying and intimidation. HR report. That person was cajoled into leaving.
• 27:10
  And it was the right call! It really was. And you know, I say this as someone who did grow up in a culture of, like, casual yelling all the time, right? Yeah, same. Yeah, so...
• 27:22
  And I think my other takeaway that comes from this conversation- So like, that would be my advice to Frozen, is like, take care of yourself. Think through your strategy for the follow-up conversation, because you should establish your boundaries, that’s incredibly important. Embrace that you are more mature than them and like, embrace your own power in this and just accept that if this is part of the work environment you’re in, like the work culture is the common denominator of the maturity of the people who work there. Real.
• 27:51
  So, you know, then you start to open up bigger questions of do you want to keep working there? Right. You know, maybe he’s an outlier, maybe this individual is an outlier, right, and is on the other end of that spectrum. But like yeah, you got to, you got to acknowledge that like sadly or- not sadly, I don’t know, it’s just reality, right? Right. Is like, the work culture fundamentally is about the maturity of the leaders who work there. Right. And you should know exactly where you are on the spectrum relative to the average and then the people who are on the far end of the outliers and you should have different approaches of how you deal with them all.
• 28:23
  My personal takeaway though, do you have a personal takeaway? My personal takeaway is perhaps I’m too comfortable with yelling. As I think about this, I’m like, I don’t know if most people are this comfortable. But yeah, I can yell, I can argue. I could argue. But I don’t want to be that person. I don’t want to be that person in the workplace. Yes. I think is my takeaway. I can and I don’t want to be. Honestly, that sounds like the best superpower, right? Yeah. It’s like you don’t have to be that. Right. You can be like the calm in the crazy. Yeah. But then you’re also, like, not too affected by the crazy. Yeah. That’s fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 28:58
  What is yours? I think mine is a little interesting. It’s being more okay with yelling. Really? Well, I think that this conversation has really helped me understand that not all yelling is a power play. And not all yelling is bullying. And, because I think about it in context of my kid, like sometimes you do have to, like, get their attention. There’s safety problems, there’s extreme situations, they need to understand the severity of something, right?
• 29:32
  I think it should be carefully used. But I don’t think I should be so scared to use it. It is part of my- it is honestly part of the lexicon of, I’m a very expressive person, right? Right. So it is somewhat natural to me. Oh yeah, I yell when I’m excited about stuff, when there’s good food for lunch, I yell about that, yeah. Exactly! Exactly. So like, I think in that way- and then I can trust repair. Yeah. I think I should really trust repair because I am pretty able to observe when someone didn’t enjoy, like it didn’t, it wasn’t effective maybe if I shouted or like I see with my kid. I repair with her even though she’s kind of, she’s not even two, and I don’t even know if she understands. Right.
• 30:08
  But like, I’m like, “Oh that wasn’t about her or the situation, that was just about my own shit.” Right. Right? And so like, I think like for me as a leader, being more okay with trusting repair and like putting the emphasis on that. Like, we’re not always going to get it right in the work environment. You know, we do have different baselines. But if we can build that culture where we can expect a little bit more of that repair or that feedback or that ability to go back to a situation. I mean, I kind of like that. I’d have to, like, test this out more in real life. But it’s- Yeah, so my takeaway is sort of more like food for future evolution of leadership, I guess.
• 30:46
  Yeah. So what about for this particular letter writer, this question-asker? So for Frozen, I would just say, excellent question, extremely relatable. Yeah. Clearly a lot of different cultural norms around yelling depending on industries and like all these stories around it. And you know, we don’t have a lot of those details in your question. So those are also things to factor in I think for you. Yeah, generation, gender.
• 31:13
  I think the industry would make me answer differently. Right. The size of the company, but- The intention of this person, how often are they doing it, does it feel like it’s just towards you or are they just, is that how they show up in general? Right. Is this then veering on the threshold of more of an HR problem or is this more of an interpersonal problem? Right. Right?
• 31:33
  But I think a lot of the advice can stay the same, where you’re focusing on what you can control and what you want to handle and what you don’t want to be exposed to. Exactly! All that’s really important to establish. Exactly. So hopefully you’ve gotten the information that helps you kind of calibrate the spectrum of options here, which I think was really what you were asking us for, is can we, like, blow up this question a little bit? Very fun to talk about, could talk about this and continue to talk about this, I think, so thank you so much Frozen!
• 32:05
  That's it for this week's Sunday Scaries: Work Edition. If this episode resonated with you, subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and leave us a review!
• 32:15
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• 32:30
  Sunday Scaries: Work Edition is produced by Emily Tao and Bijal Mehta. Our theme music is by Bitter Old Men and artwork is by Erin Leeder. Until next week: may your inbox stay manageable and your work-life balance tip towards life. Bye!