Latest / The Lila Rose Show / E49: Is Manhood Under Attack? w/ Prof. Nancy Pearcey

Transcript

E49: Is Manhood Under Attack? w/ Prof. Nancy Pearcey · The Lila Rose Show

0:00
The message from evolutionary psychology has been not only
0:03
that men are naturally promiscuous, but they're
0:05
naturally flesh obsessed pigs who are irresponsible, crime
0:09
prone. We really need to counter the
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notion that men are just naturally, you know, beast at
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heart and come back to a vision of men made in God's image who
0:17
are naturally oriented towards marriage and family and
0:21
fatherhood. Is masculinity toxic?
0:28
Are women usually the victims and men usually the villains?
0:33
You're going to hear sometimes these sorts of scripts or
0:35
narratives in popular culture today, but a new book by
0:39
professor and best selling author Nancy Pearcey is
0:43
shattering some of the misconceptions about
0:45
masculinity. I'm really excited to have on
0:47
the podcast today Professor Pearcey, who I'm a big fan of,
0:51
and to talk about her new book called The Toxic War On
0:55
Masculinity, How Christianity Reconciles the Sexes.
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2:16
Thanks so much, Nancy for joining the podcast.
2:19
Thanks for having me, I appreciate it.
2:22
So first of all, what you've written, book?
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You wrote the book Love Thy Body.
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You've written other books. You're a professor, you study.
2:29
A lot of your study is of Christianity, masculinity,
2:32
femininity. What inspired this book?
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The toxic war on masculinity. Well, my eye was caught first of
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all by the incredible hostility that has become socially
2:43
acceptable to express toward men.
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For example, there was an article in the Washington Post
2:49
that was titled Why Can't we Hate Men?
2:52
And I thought really. In a mainstream publication, a
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Huffington Post editor tweeted hashtag Kill all men.
3:01
You can buy T-shirts that say so many men, so little ammunition.
3:06
And books have come out with titles like I Hate Men and No
3:09
Good Men and Are Men Necessary? And even men have jumped on the
3:14
bandwagon. There was a, a book written by a
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male, male author and the main sentence that's been quoted from
3:21
that book is talking about healthy masculinity is like
3:25
talking about healthy cancer. And you may have seen this, It
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was in the news just a few weeks ago.
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The director of the movie Avatar, James Cameron, said
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testosterone is a toxin that you have to work out of your system.
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So no wonder a survey found recently that almost half of
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American men, 46%, say these days society seems to punish men
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just for acting like men. And by the way, that's what that
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one's in the book. But there was a more recent one
3:53
in Britain, 55% of men. So the number's going up.
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And whether you agree with that or not, that is a lot of men who
4:00
now think that they're getting a bad deal in modern society.
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And so I wanted to get to the bottom of this.
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You you cannot really oppose the social trend unless you know
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where it came from and how it developed.
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And that was my goal in the Toxico and masculinity is to
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help people understand where it came from so that they could
4:16
respond more effectively. So you do an amazing job in the
4:19
book of sketching the history, sorts of sort of history of
4:23
masculinity and how different cultures and, you know,
4:26
especially the Western culture has viewed masculinity and kind
4:30
of debunking some stereotypes. Tell us what your research found
4:33
as you looked back at the history of masculinity.
4:37
Yeah, this was an interesting because I think most people
4:39
think the concept of toxic masculinity arose, say, in the
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1960s with second wave feminism actually has much deeper roots
4:48
and that's what we need to understand.
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You have to go all the way back to the Industrial Revolution.
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Before that time, men worked with their wives and children
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all day on the family farm, the family business, the family
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industry, and so the ethos for masculinity really focused on
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their caretaking role. You have to be gentle and
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patient 'cause you're working with your wife and kids all day.
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Even the concept of authority had a very specific meaning
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then. It didn't mean you get to do
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whatever you want, It meant you had responsibility for the
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common good. The idea being, you know, you
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look out for what's good for you.
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I look out for what's good for me.
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But who looks out for the common good?
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Whether it's the marriage, the family, the church, school,
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civil society and whatnot. And the favored word of the day
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was the person in authority was not was to be disinterested.
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Which means he was not supposed to look out for his own
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interest. He was supposed to look out for
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the good of the whole. So how did we lose this?
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The Industrial Revolution took work out of the home.
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And of course, men had to follow their work out of the home into
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factories and offices. And for the first time in
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American history, men were not working with people they loved
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and had a moral bond with. Instead, they were working as
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individuals with other men. And this is when you start to
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see the language change. Already in the 19th century, you
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see in the literature of the day, people began to protest
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that men were losing the caretaking ethos that they'd had
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in the colonial era, that men were becoming individualistic,
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self interested, egocentric. Look out for number one, get
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ahead at all costs, greedy and acquisitive, to use the language
6:26
of the day. And so already back then for the
6:29
first time, you start to see the male character described in
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negative terms. People people didn't like it,
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but they did say that our men are changing and they are no
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longer following. Well, either the colonial ethic
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or or the Christian ethic too, because this was when
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secularization really permeated American culture.
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As large public institutions emerge, the business factories,
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financial institutions, universities, banks, and so on,
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these people began to say that these large public institutions
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should operate by scientific principles, by which they meant
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value free. In other words, don't bring your
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private values into the public arena, which is what we still
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hear today. And since men were the ones
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getting that secular education and working in that secularized
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workplace, they became secular earlier than women did.
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And you see that in the literature of the day, too.
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People began to complain that men were not going to church as
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often. They were not governing their
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behavior by biblical ethics. They were losing a biblical
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sense of manhood. And so there were the two
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factors, you know, the economic factor, but also it became the
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catalyst for the secularization. So along this same time as men
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are kind of leaving that family farm and the tenderness and the
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sort of cooperative nature of that family business, right?
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They needed more maybe tenderness or gentleness, like
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you said. How is this affecting femininity
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or the experience of femininity for most women?
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Because if the men are leaving and going into the factories and
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into the office, how does this impact women and their living
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out their feminine role? Yes, good question.
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Because if values were kicked out of the public arena, where
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would they be cultivated? In the private arena?
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In the home and church? And who presided over the home?
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The woman. And so, for the first time ever
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in human history, women were said to be morally and
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spiritually superior to men. They were set up as the.
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I, I want to pause for a SEC because that statement is such a
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tremendous 1. And it's when I was reading your
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book, I thought most people do not know this history, but this
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what you just said that for the first time women were seen to be
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morally and spiritually superior.
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I think today, even among many Christians, Catholics, this idea
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that, you know, women are, you know, the, the, the level of
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womanhood is the measure of civilization.
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That's Archbishop Fulton Sheen. So it's a Catholic, you know,
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idea in Catholic world as well as in the evangelical world.
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You know, women are supposed to have these, like, are especially
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spiritual. They're usually more spiritual
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than men. But are you saying that that is
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actually more of a modern idea? Very much, very much so.
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All the way back to the ancient Greeks and Romans, people had
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thought that men were morally superior, stronger.
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The idea was they saw the insight into right and wrong as
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a rational insight, and they thought that men were more
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rational and therefore men were more virtuous.
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In fact, the word virtue comes from the the Latin VIR means man
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as in the word virile. So the very word virtue had
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overtones of masculine strength and honor.
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And so it was completely new in the 19th century when people
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began to turn to women and say, well, men are sort of losing
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their biblical moorings, their ethical moorings.
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So women, it's up to you now to be the moral guardians of
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society. And that had that had negative
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consequences because first of all, it created tension,
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obviously, between men and women.
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I mean, who wants his wife to be his moral overseer?
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But it also let men off the hook because essentially they said,
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well, men are not naturally oriented toward marriage and
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family. Men are not naturally virtuous.
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They're naturally more prone to stem and vice and temptation,
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sexual temptation in in particular.
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So it was and and I think what you're saying is very good.
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I had AI did an interview with a young Christian couple not long
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ago. So I turned around and
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interviewed them and I asked them, what do you think among
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young people today in the church is, is this double standard
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still there? And they said, oh, absolutely.
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It's, it's just thought that that boys and men dating, they
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were young married couple, but dating and married couples, that
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the man is more prone to pornography and sexual sin in
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particular. And that it's up to the woman to
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hold the line. It's up to the woman to to hold
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the man in check. So as you were saying, I think
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that double standard is still there in the church.
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And it does two things. It puts way too much pressure on
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women, but it lets men off the hook.
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And so I think that we need to call men back to a moral
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standard rooted in Scripture and persuade them that in fact, if
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this is their true nature, if we say that their true nature is
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not to be oriented toward marriage and family, well, then
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marriage and family seems to be an imposition, you know, imposed
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by women and, and not and contrary to their true
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character. And so I think that's a very
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dangerous point of view. And, and you're absolutely
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right. I think since you since the 19th
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century it it still exists today that same double standard.
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So it seems like part of your argument is that today's modern
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world, you know the office and you know, the urbanization of
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family life and you know that we don't have the factory as much
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anymore. But I guess there's like a
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little bit of a factory sense of just sitting at one's laptop all
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day, like a machine typing away. So that this has brought out,
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you could argue, the worst in men or it's not been healthy for
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men and especially in terms of family dynamics.
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Do you think that is the case today?
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I mean, I know it might be maybe was more severe when men had to
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leave the home for, you know, 12 to 16 hours to go into a factory
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or even live at the factory away from their family.
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But is today's modern society really not set up for helping
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the masculine strengths, the good things about masculinity
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flourish and instead draw out devices?
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That seems to be part of the argument that you're making in
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the book. But look at how fathers are
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treated in the media. Fathers are ridiculed, mopped,
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made fun of. You know the dimwit dad the
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doofus dad is. It populates all of our
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advertisements and and movies and animations from Homer
12:50
Simpson on. Where did that come from?
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You know, we know most of us know that's the case.
12:55
But where did it come from? Again, if you go back to the
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Industrial Revolution, when fathers were taken out of the
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home for the first time, they really were not deeply
13:04
integrated into the family dynamics anymore.
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They didn't really know what the children were doing throughout
13:09
the day. They were no longer sort of
13:13
closely connected to their children's experiences and
13:15
feelings. And already in the 19th century,
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you see people protesting again. First of all, they protested
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that. Here's how one columnist put it
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at the time. The Father who was meant to be
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the prototype of the Heavenly Father is not here, you know,
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all week. He's only here on Sundays.
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So people were in shock at the time, right?
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It was, it was we're we're used to it now.
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But at the time, they were really shocked by the the change
13:42
in the family dynamics. But you also see in the
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literature of the time, people beginning to say, well, I guess
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the fathers are basically irrelevant, insignificant,
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disconnected and even incompetent.
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You know, the doofus dad already shows up.
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In the 19th century, people began to say, well, fathers
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really don't know much about what's going on in the family.
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So, you know, they don't have much to say.
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So if you want to reconnect the men to the children, well, this
14:08
does give us a a clue to how to do it.
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I have a whole chapter on, you know, can we flex the workplace
14:13
a little, even even after the Industrial Revolution to help
14:17
fathers be more in touch with their children.
14:20
And the pandemic had a very minor silver lining, which is
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that a lot of fathers said, hey, we actually enjoy being home.
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One survey found that 65% of fathers said they did not want
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to go back to the office full time, that they preferred to
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work at least part time from home.
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And The New York Times had a really fun article.
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The title was something like during the pandemic fathers got
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reconnected to their families and they don't want to lose
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that. So it does also give us some
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direction on perhaps practical things that we can do to
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reconnect fathers to their children.
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And that is after all, the long term answer to toxic behaviour
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in men is fathers raising their kids in a healthy biblical sense
15:05
of masculinity. 1 psychologist put it this way, we're not going
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to have a better class of men until we have a better class of
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fathers. Fathers who don't run out on the
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job. So, you know, there's a, there's
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obviously the trope about toxic masculinity, which is can be
15:20
real, you know, a very harsh, angry, lustful, domineering
15:26
masculinity, right. But then I think some of them
15:29
may be very conservative space or maybe hyper traditionalist,
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I'll call them sort of fundamentalist traditionalist
15:34
would say, well, the they don't agree with toxic masculinity,
15:38
but they say that, you know, men shouldn't be changing diapers.
15:41
You know, men should be out there providing and leave the
15:44
entire house to the wife and she should be, you know, have
15:48
dominion over the household entirely.
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And his job is to bring in the money basically.
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And the more feminine tasks of caretaking of children,
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especially very young children is, you know, not masculine.
15:58
These seem to me to be too very, too bad extremes.
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But what's your take on that? Yeah, I agree with you.
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By the way, Martin Luther had a wonderful quote that I ended up
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cutting from the book for space. But Martin Luther has a
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wonderful quote when he where he says if if a father is washing
16:15
his child's diapers and doing some other mean task, that's how
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he put it, some other mean task for his child.
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And he is ridiculed as an effeminate fool.
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His own words that God with all his angels was looking down and
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smiling. So Martin Luther himself was
16:30
very involved in washing diapers and doing mean tasks for his
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children. But so with the colonial
16:35
fathers, Colonial fathers were expected to be just as involved
16:38
with their children as mothers were.
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And in fact, they were. They were.
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Of course, mothers have a special role when the when they
16:45
have infants, when they're nursing and so on.
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But it was expected that fathers would take the lead when it came
16:52
to the spiritual and intellectual training of their
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children. And most books on parenting in
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the colonial era were written to fathers.
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You know, today, if you go in a typical bookstore, books and
17:04
parenting are usually, you know, most of them are for women, for
17:07
the mothers. But back then, whether it's
17:09
sermon, pamphlets, advice manuals and so on, addressed the
17:13
father because the father was seen to be just as deeply
17:18
involved with his children as mothers.
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In fact, there's a word for it. They were called house fathers.
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Today we talk about housewives. That was actually a common word
17:26
back then, house fathers. So fathers were expected to lead
17:30
their lead the whole family in terms of family prayers, for
17:34
example. So I think we've kind of lost
17:38
touch with the colonial fathers when we today say, well, you
17:42
know, men should not be involved.
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We've lost touch with well, most of human history because you
17:47
know, pre industrial era is most of human history.
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The industrial world has been around since 18th, 19th century.
17:54
And also, I would say this too, the idea that men find their
18:01
true nature outside the home was also a late 19th century trope.
18:07
What what happened is after the Industrial Revolution, when men
18:10
were no longer being raised on the farm and, and young men were
18:15
no longer Hardy, strong, you know, farm boys, people began to
18:20
say men are getting soft. You know, they're, they're
18:23
working at a desk all day. They're losing their
18:26
masculinity. And and there was actually a
18:29
word that entered the English vocabulary over civilized.
18:33
The fear was that men, men and boys were becoming over
18:36
civilized. And that's when we see the
18:38
beginning of the notion that, well, to find you true
18:40
masculinity, you've got to get away from the home, away from
18:44
family, away from women in particular.
18:47
And this is when, for example, in the literature of the day,
18:50
Westerns became very common and and other literature that said
18:54
the way to to find your true masculinity is get out with the
18:57
Cowboys and rope cattle and sleep under the stars.
19:01
And and, and you know, some of that literature is fun.
19:03
I like westerns as much as anybody.
19:05
But this the underlying message was, again, marriage and family
19:10
are not true to the male nature. And to find his true self, he
19:14
gets out mountain climbing and hunting and soldiering and
19:17
sailoring. And that was a big part of the
19:19
literature of the 19th century. And I'm concerned that today
19:22
would sort of just taking that literature and baptizing it
19:24
again instead of really thinking ourselves what is a true
19:29
definition of masculinity. Well, it's, it's interesting
19:32
because I think for people that have experienced it, they know
19:35
it. You know, if they had a father,
19:37
who was that house father? I mean, they were providing, but
19:40
they were very much engaged in the home emotionally,
19:42
physically, they it's easy for them to, you know, laugh off,
19:47
you know, extreme versions of masculinity bubbling up in
19:49
culture. But from the many of many people
19:52
today didn't have that for whatever reason.
19:55
And and that's where I think it's easy for them to fall into
19:58
these extremes or to think that the extreme.
20:01
Is correct. Another popular lie that I hear,
20:04
Nancy, is that, and I believe it's a lie, is that men are not
20:08
prone to monogamy, that, you know, women are prone to
20:11
monogamy because they can carry a child.
20:14
And so they, you know, having multiple sexual partners isn't
20:17
as, I guess, helpful for them. But evolutionarily speaking, men
20:22
are not prone to monogamy because they have this desire to
20:25
impregnate as many women as physically possible and you
20:27
know, have, you know, thousands of offspring.
20:30
Biologically speaking. I don't buy that.
20:32
I can give my take on it, but I really want to hear yours.
20:35
Why? That actually isn't true about
20:37
men, and it is a lie that men can't be happily monogamous.
20:43
Well, yes, let me give you the bigger picture of the whole
20:45
impact of of evolution on constants of masculinity.
20:49
I mean, it starts with Darwin, obviously.
20:51
So Darwinian thinkers began to say that the men who came out on
20:57
top in the struggle for survival would by necessity be men who
21:00
are rugged, ruthless, brutal, savage, barbarian, and even
21:05
predatory. And this is the language that
21:07
evolution sort of inserted into our vocabulary that to find your
21:12
true self was to get in touch with the beast within instead of
21:17
living up to the image of God in the in in yourself live down to
21:22
the beast within. So this is for example, when the
21:24
Tarzan books became popular and the the son of the author
21:28
actually writes that his father wrote the Tarzan books to
21:31
communicate a Darwin in worldview that we're just, you
21:34
know, human beings are just part of nature, products of natural
21:36
natural selection. And so Darwin so so Tarzan
21:40
retains his inner wildness because he's been raised by the
21:44
apes. And even though, even though he
21:46
learns European customs and languages, he still at the end
21:50
of the book, turns to Jane and says, I'm still a wild beast at
21:53
heart. And so and, and, and by the way,
21:56
there was also a much more serious literature also called
22:00
it was a genre called literary naturalism, which was also
22:03
explicitly designed to use fiction to to treat a Darwinian
22:06
worldview. The best known being Jack
22:08
London, who wrote about dogs. But of course it was the
22:12
metaphor for humans because his, his his message was that humans
22:17
are just products of genes and environment, natural selection.
22:22
When he was a young man, London read books about Darwinism and
22:27
experienced what 1 historian calls a religious conversion to
22:32
radical materialism or naturalism.
22:35
So that was in the in Darwin's day, it was called social
22:39
Darwinism, but it's come back in our own day under the title of
22:43
evolutionary psychology. The idea being, if your body has
22:46
evolved, so has your whole psychology, your whole way of
22:49
thinking. And these are the people who
22:51
have popularized the idea that from from an evolutionary
22:56
perspective, a man should spread a seed as wide and far as
22:59
possible to get as many of his genes into the next generation.
23:03
Of course, that doesn't even make sense biologically because
23:07
why human infants are so fragile and needs long term care that if
23:13
a man quickly moves on to his next sexual conquest, that
23:16
infant is much less likely to survive and he won't get his
23:19
genes into the next generation. So even from a scientific
23:23
perspective, not even a moral one, it doesn't even make sense.
23:26
But evolutionary psychology has popularized the idea that men,
23:31
well, I'll give you another example.
23:33
It was a best selling book. Best selling called The Moral
23:36
Animal and the author says the human male is a possessive flesh
23:43
obsessed pig. Giving a man a book on how to
23:47
have a good marriage is like giving a booklet to Vikings on
23:51
how not to pillage. So the message from evolutionary
23:55
psychology has been not only that men are naturally
23:58
promiscuous, but they're naturally flesh obsessed pigs
24:02
who are irresponsible, crime prone.
24:04
Yeah. There, George Gilder has a book
24:06
called Men and Marriage in which he says a man's deepest impulse
24:10
is to get on the road, you know, get his motorbike out on the
24:13
road and again, get away from civilization, get away from
24:17
women. But then he turns around and
24:19
says, and women need to tame these men.
24:21
It's up to women to civilize them.
24:24
What really, first of all, men are a lot stronger than women.
24:27
If they really are so prone to sin and vice and crime, what
24:30
woman is going to be able to tame them and which what woman
24:34
would want to? So I think we really need to
24:37
counter the notion that men are just naturally, you know, the
24:40
beast at heart and come back to a vision of men made in God's
24:44
image who are naturally oriented towards marriage and family and
24:50
fatherhood. Do you buy the analysis today?
24:54
It's a more modern analysis that men are naturally more
24:57
promiscuous now. I think it is a fact that, you
25:00
know, men due to their size and their strength, you know,
25:04
typically are the aggressive part, aggressive party when it
25:08
comes to sexual violence. You know, I think that that
25:11
literature is clear, that research is clear.
25:14
But you know, I, I, I, I have, you know, one, one thing that I
25:17
saw in your book a few times, it wasn't a huge focus of the book,
25:20
but was a little bit of debunking of the idea that women
25:25
are more sexually virtuous by nature.
25:27
It's easier for women to choose sexual virtue, self-control,
25:31
than it is men. No, I wouldn't deny that the
25:35
sexist baby have somewhat different strengths and
25:38
weaknesses. So I don't have a problem with
25:41
saying that there may be some things that men are more prone
25:44
to versus women, but the very notion that men are more
25:49
promiscuous does come from those evolutionary assumptions.
25:53
And like I said, it doesn't even make sense scientifically, let
25:57
alone morally. So what I do in the book several
26:00
times as I come back to what's called the cultural mandate, and
26:05
half my students have not heard that term.
26:07
So the cultural mandate is in Genesis 1, where God has created
26:12
the physical universe. He's created the animals, and
26:14
then he creates the first human couple.
26:17
And what's the first thing he says to them?
26:19
He tells them why he created them, what's their purpose,
26:22
What's their job description? And he says be fruitful and
26:25
multiply and subdue the earth. And in the highly streamlined
26:29
language of Genesis 1, we can unpack several levels of meaning
26:33
there. So be fruitful and multiply, you
26:36
know, starts with the family. But historically, all of the
26:39
other social institutions do grow out of the family.
26:42
So it also means, you know, the extended family, the clan, the
26:45
tribe, the village, the nation. And social institutions have
26:49
started to for certain functions.
26:51
You, you need a state, you need a marketplace, you need a
26:54
church, you need a school. And so the word, the phrase in
26:58
Genesis actually means build up all of the social institutions,
27:02
build the entire social world, subdue the earth means harness
27:05
the natural resources. So most, most civilizations
27:09
start with agriculture, but then mining technology, invent
27:14
computers, compose music. One of my students once asked me
27:19
compose music. Really.
27:21
I said, I, I play the violin. So I said, well, what's the
27:23
violin made out of? Wood?
27:25
What's the bow? Me of horsehair.
27:28
So all of the transcendent beauty that we associate with
27:31
music starts with harnessing the raw materials of nature.
27:35
So I bring men back to this, the cultural mandate in particular,
27:40
to counter the notion that men are naturally, like you said,
27:42
promiscuous and wild. Wild at heart and you know, find
27:47
their true nature driving off into the sunset like some sort
27:50
of a Lone Ranger. No, that's not how they were
27:53
created. They were created and they find
27:55
their full greatest fulfilment rolling up their sleeves and
27:59
getting deeply engaged with their families, with the social
28:03
world and with creative and productive work.
28:08
So it's the opposite of the idea that men should escape.
28:11
It's though men find their truth fulfillment in in fulfilling
28:16
their responsibilities. You know, becoming the becoming
28:19
the house father that they used to be called, recovering that
28:23
vision. And the secret to that, like you
28:26
said at the beginning of what you just said, which is so
28:27
beautiful, is the harmony between the sexes.
28:30
It God gave the mandate of be fruitful, multiply and subdue
28:34
the earth to a couple, to a man and a woman.
28:37
And it's through their harmonization and bringing life
28:39
into the world and their collaboration and building those
28:42
social institutions and subduing the earth using the natural
28:46
resources that makes the entire civilization that we we want to
28:50
build the beautiful civilization.
28:51
So it's the family and the marriage, the man and a woman
28:54
doing this project together, that makes the whole thing
28:56
possible. Yes, and, and the other side of
29:00
it is I, I've been, I've been embroiled in a Twitter debate.
29:05
My my book. Those are fun my.
29:07
Book, my book. This book has proved to be more
29:10
controversial than anyone I've ever written, which was kind of
29:13
a surprise because Love Thy Body I thought would be more
29:16
controversial. It just with issues like
29:18
abortion and euthanasia, homosexuality, transgenderism,
29:22
which is really cutting edge today.
29:24
But this one has been more controversial.
29:26
I'll give you some background that's not in the book.
29:28
So I, I taught the manuscript in my classes.
29:32
I LED several reading groups to get lots of feedback right, to
29:35
find any rough edges. And when they would tell their
29:38
family and friends that we were going through a book on
29:40
masculinity, invariably the first question was whose side is
29:44
she on? You know, with that tone, whose
29:47
side is she on? Men tend to to assume I was
29:50
probably some male bashing feminist.
29:53
Progressives tended to assume I was some angry defensive
29:56
reactionary. So I had to write the first, I
29:59
had to rewrite that first chapter many times to sort of
30:01
overcome that initial hostility. And, and, and so back, back to
30:07
your question. Yes, on on Twitter right now, I
30:11
was first attacked by more progressives.
30:14
Now I'm being attacked by more conservatives who basically say
30:17
I'm not giving adequate account of, you know, women's need to be
30:21
domestic and in the home. And I'm like, wait a minute, I
30:24
had a home birth. I did home schooling.
30:27
I work, I work from home. I'm very focused on the home.
30:32
So still both sides, you know, women and men were both called
30:37
to create families and subdue the earth.
30:39
They were both called to have the kind of the integration of
30:43
life and work that they did enjoy through most of human
30:46
history. You know, many people think,
30:48
well, let's let's get back to the traditional family and they
30:50
think to the 1950s. No, the traditional family, that
30:53
wasn't pre industrial revolution, right?
30:58
When I mean all, all through human history until that time,
31:01
men and women worked from the home.
31:03
All businesses, all economic enterprises were within the
31:06
home. So both men and women were able
31:09
to do economically productive work while raising their
31:13
children. And so that balance is what I
31:15
would like to see us try to recover today.
31:18
I think you could write a book. Let me know this is a little
31:22
controversial, but the feminist war on femininity or there could
31:25
be a, you know, a companion piece to this because I
31:27
understand, you know, some hardcore, you know,
31:30
traditionalists, let's call them saying, well, what about the
31:32
women's? You're saying men, you know,
31:34
belong in the home too. Well, what about women?
31:36
Because there is so much narrative today, ideology today,
31:40
pushing women out of the home. You know the boss babe culture,
31:44
you know the we know women empowerment world of not just
31:47
get out of the home, but kill your baby in order to succeed,
31:50
right? That's the whole pro abortion
31:52
rhetoric is you need this choice to be empowered and the choice
31:55
is to kill another human being, your own child.
31:58
What do you think? Do you think that feminism is at
32:02
fault in part for at least the toxic war and masculinity?
32:07
And. Do you think it's also
32:09
responsible for some of the toxic war and feminine
32:11
femininity? Yes, in, in my book, I do I, I
32:16
quote some of the early feminists like Betty Friedan,
32:20
who said point blank that the married woman is a millstone
32:25
around her husband's neck, that she's a Leech and a parasite.
32:31
Because you know, the the woman by at that time, you know, was
32:35
not doing any economically productive work.
32:37
Well, she was not one of the first feminists though.
32:40
She was a forties 50s feminist. Exactly.
32:44
So I mean, the early feminists were mostly against abortion, so
32:47
it's important to keep that in mind.
32:50
But Betty, for Dan Simone de Beauvoir and others of that era,
32:55
often, But that was you back up. When the Industrial Revolution
33:00
took men's work out of the home, it also took women's work out of
33:02
the home. That's the thing we need to
33:04
understand because women did economically productive work.
33:07
The household manufacturer was the only kind of manufacturer
33:11
before the Industrial Revolution.
33:12
So women were baking bread from scratch, doing all their cooking
33:16
from scratch, making candles, making all their clothes from
33:19
scratch. You know, women had a lot of, a
33:23
lot to do in terms of, of economically productive work in,
33:26
in terms of household manufacturing that was taken
33:28
away from women. So I think that that is really
33:31
why the feminist movement started because women said,
33:34
well, wait a minute to to put it in biblical terms, women were
33:37
called to fulfil the whole cultural mandate too, not only
33:41
to be fruitful and multiply, but also to subdue the earth.
33:46
Women were supposed to be able to use their, their talents and
33:49
skills in economically productive work, which they had
33:53
until the industrial revolution. And, and because they no longer
33:58
did real work, quote UN quote, the, the feminists, like Betty
34:01
Foudin said, well, they're childlike, they're dependent,
34:04
they're parasites. She even, she even sympathized
34:08
with men then divorcing their wives because after all, you
34:12
know, who would want this millstone around their neck?
34:15
So certainly a lot of the feminist rhetoric.
34:18
And her, her feminine mystique book, it was all about the woman
34:21
that is just bored to tears and has no meaning as a suburban
34:25
housewife alone in her house. Her kids are off at school, her
34:27
husband's working. She has a laundry machine, you
34:30
know, her washing machine doing her washing work.
34:33
She has a, you know, a refrigerator taking care.
34:36
You don't have to go, you know, get the milk fresh from the cow.
34:38
She has everything in the home. So she has no purpose anymore.
34:41
I think that was kind of the she talked about this, this terrible
34:45
sickness that was harming all these suburban women.
34:49
And so therefore they need to leave the shackles of family
34:51
life and go into the workplace and do what the men were doing.
34:55
Yes. And, and I have some sympathy
34:57
for that because men, women were created to fulfill the cultural
35:00
mandate, both sides of it. But I think the answer is, of
35:03
course, to bring work home again.
35:05
And most women I know who are work, have children, do bring
35:09
some kind of productive work home.
35:11
I know many women who work from home in, in various ways, both
35:14
pink collar work and but of course, knowledge work is
35:18
especially easy to bring home. Consultants, IT consultants,
35:22
writers, which is me. You know, I, I've worked almost
35:25
my entire life primarily from home.
35:29
And so I do think it's, it's valid to say how can we help
35:31
women get a better life work balance by bringing work home
35:34
while their children are young. But it's time to start asking
35:37
how men can also bring their work home during the pandemic.
35:41
I'll give you just one story because sometimes that anecdote
35:43
sort of crystallizes it. But one of my graduate students
35:47
husband was an IT professional and he came home during the
35:50
pandemic. And because he was home more, he
35:53
was able to be more involved with their families home
35:55
schooling. He decided he would be the one
35:57
to make lunch every day. He could take his kids to soccer
36:01
and choir practice. And he was picking up so much of
36:04
the family responsibilities that his wife was able to start a
36:07
home, a part time business. But she was an opera singer and
36:11
a student who was an opera singer.
36:13
So she started a voice studio and the whole family benefited
36:16
from the added income. So I interviewed her husband and
36:19
he said our life is so much more balanced now.
36:22
I am never going back to A to 40 hours in a cubicle.
36:27
And then the final, final kicker was he said the time that I used
36:31
to spend commuting to work every morning I now spend praying with
36:35
my wife. Beautiful.
36:37
So this is what can be done. And that's what I I give lots of
36:44
anecdotes because there's no general principle yet, but lots
36:47
of stories of people who did that during the pandemic and
36:50
then said, I'm, I'm keeping this, this, I'm closer to my
36:54
kids now. I'm more integrated into my
36:56
family. You know, this is what I want
36:58
for myself. So do you think then feminism at
37:01
large was a reaction to this dramatic shift in the in society
37:07
post industrial revolution, where basically the home was
37:10
broken apart for many and there is this new kind of division or
37:15
separation between the sexes. And so with feminism of people
37:19
wanting to vote, people wanting independence, maybe, you know,
37:23
having their own economic independence, it was because
37:26
they were trying to sort of solidify some sort of equal
37:29
equilibrium between what they saw as men now breaking apart
37:32
from women because of economic reasons.
37:35
Yes, yes, exactly. There's a, a huge split, a gulf
37:39
was created between the private world and the public world.
37:42
And of course, men had no choice but to go into the public realm,
37:46
but women would then cut off from many of the opportunities
37:50
that they had had when society was more integrated.
37:53
You know, I, I mentioned Martin Luther earlier.
37:55
Well, his wife, Catherine Keta, Keta is German.
38:00
For Kathy Keta was very involved in raising the children.
38:05
Of course, they had many children.
38:08
She was very involved when her husband had theologians come in
38:11
and they have theological discussions.
38:13
Remember, they didn't have journals very much back then, so
38:16
most of the professional consulting was personally
38:20
visiting each other. So theologians would come into
38:23
their home and stay for a while. And she was a very active part
38:25
of these theological discussions.
38:27
She had been a nun, after all. So she was very well
38:29
theologically educated. She also ran several home based
38:34
businesses. She ran a brewery.
38:36
She she produced beer, she ran orchards, she ran farms, she
38:40
ran, she had crops, she had livestock.
38:43
I mean, she was a Proverbs 31 woman.
38:46
So before the Industrial Revolution, women were not cut
38:50
off from the best of society in the way that they were after the
38:54
Industrial Revolution. And I do think that's a big part
38:56
of feminism. You know, in so far as we want
38:59
to say there was some real needs that feminine were responding
39:03
to. I don't agree with their
39:04
solutions, but there was some real needs that they were
39:06
responding to. And that is that women,
39:09
everybody left the home except women, right?
39:12
You know, husbands, extended family.
39:17
Women used to have help raising the kids with extended family
39:20
and older siblings. And you know, the maiden aunt,
39:24
which was which more common back then.
39:26
Not everybody felt they had to marry so often they would live,
39:29
live with a household. And suddenly women were cut off
39:32
from all of that. Oh, and, and healthcare was
39:35
often done at home, education was done at home.
39:39
And all of a sudden women had none of that.
39:41
It was just early childhood, early childcare and cleaning the
39:44
house. So there was a huge we have to
39:48
recognize women lost a lot at the Industrial Revolution.
39:52
I think it's so powerful to know the history because it just
39:55
answers so many of the questions about not just why we got to
39:58
where we are with so much of the animosity between the sexes and
40:01
extremes and even the rejection of femininity and masculinity.
40:05
But it also just, I think, brings a lot of hope for there
40:09
is a way to be fully man, fully woman in harmony.
40:13
But it takes an intentionality about how do we set up our
40:15
lives. You mentioned the knowledge
40:17
economy earlier and that kind of gives you some hope because now
40:20
people can kind of work from home more.
40:22
And sort of incorporate their work with their home life more,
40:26
both men and women. How do you see economically the
40:29
future looking for especially American Society and for helping
40:34
men sort of reclaim their house father role as women also
40:37
reclaim their house mother role, which is also under attack?
40:43
Yes, well, sometimes people say the industrial revolution took
40:46
work out of the home. The technological revolution is
40:49
bringing it back, but making it possible to bring it back.
40:53
And now I want to clarify that sometimes I get pushed back by
40:56
people saying, well, there's a there's an important social
40:59
component to work that sometimes it's important for a person to
41:01
be in the office. Fine, yes, I'm talking about
41:04
when you have young children in the home.
41:06
That's my concern. My concern is raising the kids.
41:10
So I think that perhaps we should think in terms of work
41:12
having stages, like when your kids are young, you find ways to
41:16
work at least part time from home so that you can be more
41:19
integrated into your family. And when your children are grown
41:22
and gone, you have more options. You know, I'm not saying that
41:25
home based work is the best for everybody.
41:28
I'm saying it's the best for parents who are trying to be
41:30
involved with their children. And I would like to see, by the
41:34
way, I do quote a lot of CEOs during the pandemic who found
41:38
that work from home did not take bring down productivity.
41:42
We've got to convince business as well that this is good for
41:45
them. I quote a couple who said,
41:48
here's what one CEO said. He said we were afraid to let
41:51
people work from home before the pandemic because we were afraid
41:55
that productivity would decline. He said that fear was completely
41:58
exploded during the pandemic. When people worked from home, we
42:02
saw no decrease in productivity. In fact, sometimes we saw
42:05
increases because people who work from home are not wasting a
42:08
lot of time commuting and unnecessary meetings and so on.
42:13
So I, I read several articles by CEO saying, you know, actually
42:17
you have to be careful that people don't work too much when
42:20
they work from home. They don't know when to stop.
42:22
So it's a win win for both sides, but we have to make the
42:27
case to to business and industry that they're actually going to
42:31
benefit more. Here's how one CEO put it.
42:34
She said if you give parents the time to be better parents, they
42:40
actually end up being better workers.
42:42
They, they do, in fact, they're happier, they're more balanced
42:46
and they may not come in on Sundays, you know, the weekends,
42:51
they may not come in on the weekends as much, they might not
42:53
do as much overtime, but their time on the job, they're more
42:56
productive. So I put a lot of those quotes
42:59
in the book so that you can bring that to your boss, you
43:02
know, and and and and make a case for working at least part
43:07
time from home when your children are young.
43:09
I I I love that vision and I think increasingly it's going to
43:12
be possible. The key is helping persuade
43:15
people, giving people the vision of what really harmony between
43:19
the sexes can look like, you know, marriage, the beauty of
43:22
the marriage of marriage and the family project.
43:24
And then, yeah, it's in no way anti masculine to be very
43:28
engaged in the home. And it's also as a woman, you're
43:32
going to find reward, not just doing some work and creative
43:36
work. And maybe you're economically
43:38
providing for the family as well, which is, you know, common
43:41
for many families today. But that the home too is just
43:44
like for the man and more so when you're the mother of a
43:47
young child, is a beautifully rewarding place to be when it's
43:51
done in proper community. Right.
43:53
Like you said earlier, if the woman is just all by yourself
43:55
with the baby, it can be incredibly alienating.
43:57
I think that's one of the reasons postpartum depression
44:00
rates are so high is you just leave a woman with a newborn
44:02
with no support system. The man is off back at work.
44:05
There's no sort of system to support her emotionally and
44:08
physically. Yeah, that can be incredibly
44:10
difficult. And I don't think it's natural.
44:13
I know we don't much more time, but I do want to ask you another
44:16
question, maybe a little controversial about, you know,
44:19
again, about masculinity. So men are obviously physically
44:22
stronger than women. There is, I think there's been
44:26
studies done about men and women and their IQ's and my
44:29
understanding is they're largely the same at large, although at
44:32
the end of the bell curve there are more male geniuses than
44:35
women geniuses, but overall women are slightly smarter.
44:38
Is that what your research shows?
44:42
Well, I did find one study that said that, but I wouldn't want
44:45
to say that I would go with a single study.
44:48
Although women do test out higher on test of emotional
44:51
intelligence. That's not quite so surprising.
44:55
But, you know, if I if I can, I wanted to pick up on one thing
44:59
you said earlier when you said it is masculine to be involved
45:01
with your family. Because one of the things that's
45:06
a bit unique about the book is people who try to encourage men
45:10
to be more involved in their families usually take a scolding
45:13
tone. You need you need to spend more
45:16
time at home. I have a graduate student who is
45:20
the leader of a large women's ministry in a, in a big Baptist
45:24
Church. And she said on on Mother's Day,
45:28
we hand out roses and tell the mothers they're wonderful.
45:31
On Father's Day, we scold the men and tell them to do better.
45:35
And so one of those things that was so unique about the book.
45:38
I mean, I was surprised to find this.
45:39
There's a lot of data showing that men benefit from becoming
45:43
involved fathers. I'm not aversed to appealing to
45:46
people's self-interest. So fathers themselves are
45:50
reporting that they're that becoming a father enhances their
45:55
sense of manhood. And it's even biochemical.
45:59
We knew, we already knew that when a Mormon gives birth, you
46:02
know, her oxytocin rises, right, which is a bonding hormone,
46:05
which gives her a little bit of a biochemical boost in, in
46:09
attaching to her infant. Well, it turns out that men's
46:12
oxytocin goes up too when, when their baby is born.
46:16
And the baby's oxytocin goes up when the father is it, it, the
46:20
father has to be actively holding, playing with, cuddling
46:23
his baby. It's, it's stimulated by tactile
46:26
sense. So but when the father is
46:30
holding us and playing with his child, his oxytocin goes up as
46:33
well. His testosterone goes down, by
46:35
the way. So he's a bit gentler, and his
46:38
oxytocin goes up. And so men, too, are
46:41
biochemically primed to be committed, attached, nurturing
46:46
fathers. And the biggest surprise, this
46:49
was the most recent data. It was by an anthropologist and
46:53
she discovered that men's oxytocin is actually rising off
46:58
through his wife's pregnancy. So for the nine months of his
47:02
wife's pregnancy, if they're living together, his oxytocin is
47:05
going up at the same time hers is.
47:07
Nobody knew that. I guess nobody thought to test a
47:10
man's blood during the his wife's pregnancy.
47:14
But when they did, they found out that all those nine months,
47:17
he is also being biochemically primed to be fully involved as a
47:21
father. So fathers do.
47:24
And there's even something called, a psychologist called it
47:27
the dad brain. In other words, there's a nest
47:29
of neurons that that fire when a man becomes a father, that don't
47:34
fire if you don't become a father or if you're not an
47:36
engaged father. So there's a psychologist who
47:39
says, you know, when a man becomes a father, he is actually
47:43
his, his brain activity actually increases.
47:46
So men actually benefit greatly from becoming fathers.
47:49
And so, you know, we can help them realize that they
47:52
themselves will experience a a deeper sense of purpose, meaning
47:57
and just fulfillment of when they become fathers so that we
48:02
can appeal to them in a positive way and not just sort of a
48:04
scolding tone, which I think is more common.
48:07
I, I think it's a great point and I, I love what you shared.
48:10
I think people don't usually get to hear that.
48:12
And it's important to hear about the beautiful benefits of
48:15
fatherhood for men. Where I was going with the last
48:17
question about, you know, IQ or just physical differences
48:20
between women and the IQ was a more of a little, almost like a
48:23
joke. It's a another popular Twitter
48:25
battle between, you know, some on the the left and the right
48:29
and the red pill and the, you know, that whole world.
48:32
But really, you know, these these biological differences
48:35
between men and women, the fact that women can only women can be
48:39
mothers, only men can be fathers.
48:41
Men are physically at large stronger.
48:44
Women alone can nurture. We gestate, we can lactate, we
48:48
do these things. What do you think?
48:50
You know, this is kind of Harkins back to your book Life
48:52
by Body. What what are the lessons, the
48:55
moral lessons about the the differences between the sexes?
49:00
Yes. So of course, one of the first
49:02
questions I always got when I was writing the book was and So
49:04
what do you think are the differences between men and
49:06
women? And so that had to go into
49:07
chapter one right at the beginning because everyone's
49:10
going to ask it. And, and you, you're right.
49:12
Let's start with just biology. Well, psychologically, let me
49:16
say this. Psychologically, men and women,
49:17
of course, are more similar than they are different.
49:20
And so if you even a trait, even a trait like aggression,
49:25
surprisingly, you get a bail curve for women and you get a
49:28
bail curve for men. And they overlap extremely
49:31
closely. They, they differ mostly at the
49:33
edges, at the extremes, which is why 90% of prison inmates are
49:37
male. They're at that, at that extreme
49:41
of aggression. So it is important to always
49:43
remember we are more alike than different.
49:46
You know, when, when Eve shows up in the Garden of Eden, Adam
49:49
doesn't say, oh, somebody who's, you know, kind of different from
49:52
me. No, he says bone of my bones and
49:54
flesh of my flesh. You know, he's excited because
49:57
it's somebody who's like him. So we want to keep that in mind
50:01
even when we discuss, discuss differences.
50:03
But let's go to biology. Obviously men are bigger,
50:06
stronger, faster because of, of testosterone.
50:11
They are tend to be more aggressive and risk taking.
50:14
And it is time for us to just say these are good things.
50:17
This is how God made men and we should be grateful for these
50:21
differences, for these the uniquenesses of the sexes
50:25
instead of denigrating them. I, you do see feminists, you've
50:27
probably seen this, you have seen feminists who'll say, well,
50:30
women could be just as strong as men if they would just work out.
50:33
No, they, they won't be. And it's time, it's time for us
50:37
to say these are good things. Now, here's let me give you
50:40
another study. Though.
50:42
The thing is, of course, what we do have to help men recognize is
50:45
that their greater strength was not given them to get what they
50:49
want. It was given them to provide,
50:52
protect and cherish those who they loved.
50:56
So there was an anthropologist who did the first ever cross
51:00
cultural cross cultural concepts of masculinity.
51:04
And what he found was no matter how they define masculinity,
51:08
which does differ some from culture to culture.
51:11
What they all agreed on was what he called the three PS that to
51:16
be a man means you provide, you protect and you procreate,
51:21
meaning have a family, you know, build into the next generation.
51:25
He found that this was universal.
51:27
And my take away is men are made in God's image and they do know
51:32
that their strength was not given them to just overpower
51:35
others, dominate others, control, get what they want.
51:38
It was given them to provide, protect and be a good father.
51:43
And this is it seems to be built into the male nature because
51:47
this was this was cross cultural.
51:48
This was among the globe. These weren't Christian cultures
51:52
that he was investigating. Many of they were non Christian
51:56
as well. I mean, people who didn't have a
51:57
biblical background had that innate inherent knowledge of
52:01
what it means to be a good man. They had a knowledge of what
52:04
that that their strengths were given them for a purpose and
52:07
that they would be most fulfilled when they live out
52:09
that purpose. It seems to be a universal
52:13
understanding that that men have that just, you know, like I
52:17
said, it's an innate knowledge. How can we celebrate and
52:22
encourage foster healthy masculinity, especially in boys
52:27
and young men? You know, I think I'll give you
52:30
one more study because this was another one I put at the front
52:34
of the book because, like I said, people were asking what
52:38
side is she on? Who's side is she on?
52:40
And so I put this right at the beginning because it tended to
52:44
defuse that hostility. It's a sociologist.
52:48
He's not a Christian himself, but he's well known in his
52:51
field. And so he speaks all around the
52:53
world. So once again, we're getting a
52:54
global perspective. And he so he came up with this
52:58
clever experiment. He asked young men 2 questions.
53:01
First, he would ask them, what does it mean to be a good man?
53:04
If you are at a funeral in the in the eulogy, somebody says he
53:08
was a good man. What does that mean?
53:11
And the sociologist said all around the world, young men had
53:14
no problem answering that they would jump right in with duty,
53:17
honor, integrity, sacrifice, do the right thing, look out for
53:21
the little guy, provide, be a protector, be a provider, be
53:25
responsible, you get the picture?
53:27
And so the sociologist would ask them, well, where'd you learn
53:30
that? And they'd say, it's just in the
53:32
air we breathe. Or if they were in a Western
53:35
country, they would say, it's part of our Judeo-christian
53:38
heritage. And then he would follow up with
53:41
a second question. He'd say, well, what does it
53:43
mean if I say to you, man up, be a real man?
53:46
And the young men would say, oh, no, that's completely different.
53:49
That means be tough, be strong, never show weakness, win at all
53:53
costs, be competitive, get rich, get laid.
53:58
I'm using their language. And the sociologist concluded
54:02
that men really have these two competing scripts.
54:06
And this is all around the world.
54:08
On the one hand, again, men innately know what it means to
54:11
be the good man. It's an inherent knowledge that
54:15
all men have. But they feel cultural pressure
54:19
to live up to the standard of the real man, so to speak, which
54:24
does include the more toxic behaviours.
54:27
Especially if it's decoupled from a moral vision of what it
54:31
means to be a man, it can easily slide into dominance and control
54:35
and entitlement and so on. And so I think this gives us a
54:40
better way to deal with this issue.
54:41
Because when we talk to men, well, they don't respond very
54:46
well to being accused of being toxic, right?
54:48
Nobody would. So a better strategy is to see
54:52
if we can tap into their innate knowledge of what it means to be
54:56
the good man. Can we affirm and encourage and
54:59
support men in their innate knowledge of and and and their
55:04
innate of aspiration? I think they aspire to be the
55:08
good man. Most men do in fact, inspire,
55:10
aspire to be that. Can we support them in that
55:14
aspiration? And that gives us a much more
55:16
positive way to deal with these issues.
55:20
I love that vision and I think that there's, I, I would argue
55:24
millions of people, parents already doing that with their
55:27
sons. And I, I really hope, Nancy,
55:31
you'll consider a book on femininity next.
55:34
I would you think that might be in the cards?
55:37
Well, yes, I, I did deal with it a little bit here, just because
55:40
you have to, right? You have, if you're going to
55:42
talk about men, you have to talk about women.
55:44
So I did deal a little bit with the the things we talked about
55:47
how the Industrial Revolution affected women and how how it
55:51
did give rise to the feminist movement.
55:53
But you're right, it needs a much fuller answer.
55:56
I had a draft manuscript, more of an outline with a few
56:00
chapters from almost a decade ago called Woman at War, the War
56:04
on Femininity. And I, I'm looking for, you
56:07
know, I don't know that I'm the person to complete that, that
56:09
kind of a book. But after reading some of your
56:11
books, I think you do a phenomenal job of it because
56:14
that that that story I think needs to be told as much as the
56:18
man's story. Because today, you know, as
56:21
women are seen more as the victim and men as the villain.
56:23
You know, women to be empowered is to be pro abortion.
56:27
And all of these, all of this nonsense really about women, you
56:31
know, infantilization of women on the one hand with the sort of
56:34
reckless autonomy with no regard for anyone else on the other.
56:38
It's a toxic femininity that exists and needs to be combated
56:42
as much. So anyways, I'm so grateful for
56:45
your work. It's been really powerful.
56:47
I know you've you've got a lot of work in front of you and how
56:50
can people find you and get get your book The toxic warm
56:54
masculinity. Yes, so the book is available at
56:59
all the normal places. Go to Amazon or if you prefer
57:02
other places like christianbook.com or if you're
57:05
lucky, you have a brick and mortar store, but you can also
57:08
come to my website, my publisher redid, my website, very
57:12
colorful. So come on over nancypearcy.com.
57:15
And Pearcy is P/E ARCEY. So nancypearcy.com, you can
57:20
browse my other books. And by the way, I should say
57:22
Total Truth, one of my earlier books also has a chapter on
57:26
women and the industrial revolution and women a little
57:29
bit fuller than what I give in this book, Chapter 12.
57:33
So look, Total Truth chapter 12 talks about women, but you can
57:38
browse my other books. You can leave a comment.
57:40
I do read the comments. So come on by, come on by my
57:43
website. It'd be fun to talk with you.
57:46
Thank you so much, Nancy. It's been awesome talking with
57:49
you and thank you for all your work.
57:51
Thank you for all your work. I really appreciate your work
57:54
with live action and everything that you do.
57:56
So it was good talking with you. Hey guys, thanks so much for
58:00
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58:02
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