Latest / Catholic Spirit Radio / Catholic Conversations #174: Finding Hope and Healing: Scott Wieman's Journey with Catholic in Recovery

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Catholic Conversations #174: Finding Hope and Healing: Scott Wieman's Journey with Catholic in Recovery · Catholic Spirit Radio

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Catholic Conversations on Catholic Spirit Radio Hello everyone and welcome to
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Catholic Conversations on Catholic Spirit Radio.
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I'm your host, Paul Garcia, and today I'm joined by Scott Wieman,
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the founder of Catholic in Recovery, a powerful ministry that blends the spiritual
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wisdom of the Catholic Church with the healing tools of 12-step recovery.
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You may have heard their radio spots airing on this very station.
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Catholic in Recovery serves people facing a wide range of addictions,
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from alcoholism and drug use to pornography, food, gambling,
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codependency, and more.
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Scott's story is one of hope, healing, and grace, and today we'll talk about
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his journey, the impact of Catholic in Recovery, and the Recovery Rosary,
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and the two books he's written to help others on their path towards freedom.
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They're titled The Twelve Steps and the Sacraments and The Catholic in Recovery Workbook.
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He's a marriage and family therapist, holds a master's degree in clinical counseling,
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and is a practicing counselor in Tennessee, working with individuals,
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couples, and families dealing with addiction, trauma, anxiety, and more.
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You may have seen or heard him on EWTN's The Journey Home, EWTN Live,
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as a recurring guest on Catholic Answers Live, or even through the Hallow app.
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Scott currently lives in Nashville, Tennessee with his wife,
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Jacqueline, and their three children, and he somehow balances life as a husband.
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Father, therapist, counselor, author, and speaker. so it's a true gift that
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he made the time to be with us here today.
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So Scott, thank you very much, and welcome to Catholic Conversations.
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It's great to have you with us.
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Yeah, thank you, Paul. It's really great to be with you, and I appreciate the
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opportunity to share some hope and healing with those who may be in a place of struggle.
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Absolutely, and there are plenty of those individuals, and we love people like
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you that are just, you know, driven to really help those people.
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So before we get too far into this conversation, Can you just share a bit about
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your story and what led you to start Catholic in Recovery among all of your other ventures?
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Yeah. So my, you know, really the basis, the foundation of the work that I do
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and the identity that I found as a beloved son of God stems from.
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The darkness of my own challenges with addiction. And, you know,
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briefly, I grew up in Northeast Wisconsin.
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I, a little context as well, grew up nominally Catholic.
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I say that we, you know, describe our attendance at mass was like Christmas,
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Easter, a few extra credit weekends each year, and then CCD on Wednesday nights.
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So I went through the sacraments of initiation as a youth and adolescent.
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I took my first drink when I was 17 years old, and I loved the effect of alcohol.
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And I wouldn't say that I was an alcoholic after my first drink,
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but I certainly began patterns of escaping reality or escaping life through
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mood-altering substances, alcohol,
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drugs, harder drugs, and even some behavioral challenges or compulsive behaviors
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like lust addiction and gambling and other things.
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I really just, you know, different symptoms of the same spiritual malady, I would say.
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I went to college. My first attempt at college was a school in New York City
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where I went on a policy debate scholarship,
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although that lasted three semesters as my pursuit of alcohol and drugs really
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trumped any kind of pursuit of academic achievement or other things.
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And so in my early 20s, had two drunk driving citations,
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went to treatment after my second, although I made the rationalization that
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I was too young to be an alcoholic or an addict,
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making comparisons to my peers, who, if I wasn't honest with myself at the time,
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but were able to go to school or work on Mondays, and I just continued to chase.
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And so I did, shortly after, though, this treatment experience,
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fell in love with a girl who was from a great Catholic family.
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Our relationship was on and off as I resumed drinking, drug use,
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and all the manipulation, deceit, dishonesty that comes with that.
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That on and off relationship lasted for a few years and brought us to Southern California, San Diego.
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And about a year into that, she did what she needed to do for herself and was
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probably the best thing that anyone's ever done for me and broke off the relationship.
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She just couldn't do it anymore. And after about a month and a half of isolated
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drinking and drug use, I finally found my way into the rooms of recovery and
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found a group of recovering alcoholics who had a solution to my problem.
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I was very hopeless at the time Thought that I was,
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maybe too smart or too complex to, you know, be part of the solution.
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But I remember the relief that came when walking into 12-step recovery meeting
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and really just surrendering.
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And that was kind of a forced surrender as there wasn't really another house on the block.
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And, you know, a man in that meeting, that October 10th, 2011,
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the day that I, it was my first day of sobriety.
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After that meeting, a man darted across the room, looked me in the eyes and
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said, I know exactly how you feel. You don't ever have to drink again.
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And he really saved my life and walked with me immediately.
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We went that morning to go get coffee and made a routine of going to a recovery
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meeting each morning and getting coffee afterwards, reading the big book at
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Alcoholics Anonymous, cross-referencing that with the Bible.
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And he encouraged me to get back to my faith.
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And so I became active in my Catholic faith, thanks to a great young adult community in San Diego.
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And yeah, my life took new form thanks to these life-giving entities of the
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Catholic Church and 12-Step Recovery, which ultimately both drew me into a desperate
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relationship with our Lord. And for that, I am so grateful.
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Certainly, there's much more that we can discuss to kind of color in the rest of the story.
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But yeah, my life and all that's good in my life, the foundation of my life,
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which at the top of that list includes my wife and three kids,
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is really as a result of the freedom and the mercy that I found in the rooms of 12-step recovery.
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So can you tell me a little bit more about what role your faith had in your recovery?
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And is faith intertwined with most 12-step programs already?
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Is it in most AA meetings or have I heard the wrong thing?
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Yeah, absolutely. And it's central. It's a central principle of 12-step recovery.
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And there are 12-step recovery groups for all sorts of conditions related to
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alcoholism, drug addiction, food-related addictions, gambling,
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codependency, internet and technology addiction. I could go on and on.
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Family members impacted by a loved one's addiction, adult children of alcoholics
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in dysfunctional homes.
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All of them really lead to and encourage a relationship with a power greater than ourselves.
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I think these spiritual or faith terms are kept pretty broad as it's not just
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Christians or Catholics who are seeking recovery or in need of new life.
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But ultimately, you know, I'd say it's a large funnel that draws us into a deeper
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relationship with our higher power.
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There is some freedom in choosing our higher power.
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However, within, you know, the essence of recovery literature is a description
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of referring to a Christian God or a God that we can do business with and leaning
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into the tenets of our faith.
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I was far from the church really in my young adult years until this moment of surrender.
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And so I needed to form kind of a new understanding of who God was in many ways
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that was critical to doing business with Him, if you will.
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And so the understanding that I had of God at first was God standing high up
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in the sky, tall, and really not active in my life, but being more of a divine
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scorekeeper, keeping a list of assets and liabilities.
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And of course, the liabilities far outweigh the assets.
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And I need to come to understand God in a new way.
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And so both through my encounters with the body of Christ in recovery meetings
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and in the church, through the sacraments, through scripture,
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which in my early recovery, reading the gospel stories was all new.
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And so I just couldn't get enough of getting to know who Jesus was and coming
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to learn that He has an innate interest in my life and wants to be there for me.
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He's someone who I could rely upon and, you know, ultimately turn my will and my life over to him.
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So, yes, I would say that faith plays a critical aspect for everyone in recovery.
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You know, there's a key notion that we say that God doing for us what we could not do for ourselves.
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And, boy, I've experienced that so much through my faith and my recovery.
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And if you don't mind me asking, how exactly did you experience that?
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You know, God doing things for you that you couldn't do for yourself?
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Yeah, you know, at first, I'd say probably one of the first encounters was just
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I had so much shame, as most people do who enter the rooms of recovery.
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You know, there is just such a great deal of shame and fear and resentment that
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we carry and can really cloud and creates really challenging relationships for,
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you know, by all who are affected by it.
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Alcoholism and addiction, not just the identified patient, quote-unquote, in the family.
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And yeah, so I think, you know, just God showing me the eyes of mercy and,
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you know, through the loving eyes of people who were serving me,
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men and women in my recovery groups who were, you know, had months or years
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or decades of recovery and sobriety and were willingly offering their experience,
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strength, and hope in a way that helped me understand that I wasn't alone,
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that I wasn't the lost cause, that there is hope.
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And I think I refer to this, Father Jacques Philippe in his book,
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Interior Freedom, refers to the eyes.
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We need to find the eyes that are the most truest, tenderest,
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most loving eyes in this world.
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And those might be from a spiritual director, a mentor, a teacher,
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a parent, but they are the eyes of God, the Father.
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And, you know, Michael, who darted across the room and expressed his understanding
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of what I was going through and just poured so much love and care into me,
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he was a representative of those eyes of God.
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And I would say also as, you know, two or three months into my recovery,
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I recognized it took maybe it wasn't like a crashing gong or anything like that
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that went off, but just it dawned upon me, you know, I haven't thought about
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drinking or using drugs for like two or three days.
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And the obsession, the obsession to drink, which haunted me and haunts so many
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who are impacted by addictions and compulsive behaviors, that was lifted.
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And that clearly was an act of God that provided a new freedom,
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a new clarity, and a new outlook on life.
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Those are just a few examples of the many ways that I've encountered God.
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And I get to encounter Him still on a daily basis. and the eyes or in the embodiment
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of those who come into recovery new,
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seeking hope, maybe without a ton of it themselves, and also by those who just
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continue to give themselves very selflessly.
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To the spirit, this movement of recovery. You said compulsion there,
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and it made me just wonder, what was this experience like dealing with specifically
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alcoholism or maybe addictions with drugs?
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I don't know which one was the most prevalent in your life at this time, but what was that like?
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I never had heard it explained as a compulsory behavior, if that's what you said.
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You know, you drink because you think you should. I don't know.
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Is it an intense craving?
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I'm just asking because maybe some people listening, they experience one of these symptoms.
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Maybe they don't know that they maybe have an issue or I'm also just plain curious.
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What was that addictive feeling like with alcohol or drugs?
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Yeah, the best way I can express it is this combination of physical craving and a mental obsession.
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You know, the first drink or the first hit of a drug would create this,
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I would say, abnormal or unhealthy reaction where I immediately wanted more.
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And that, yeah, that physical craving. And then when I wasn't with it,
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you know, perhaps the next morning, usually I would wake up after,
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you know, a bit hungover, not feeling so good, feeling a ton of shame about
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not taking any action the day before.
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And I would be dead set on, today's going to be the day that I do something different with my life.
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I feel so bad. I can't let this happen again.
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And then I would get to work. By around noon time, I would probably have enough
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hydration and caffeination and think to myself.
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Maybe that actually wasn't so bad. I think that maybe that intention that I
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made earlier today was probably a bit of an overreaction.
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And then the mental obsession would come into play.
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And I just couldn't stop thinking about it. I can't be well until I get my first
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drink or my first hit and just kind of take me out of it or allow me to escape from life.
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And, you know, then stop on my way home at the liquor store on my way home from
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work, buy a bottle of vodka and a bottle of Gatorade,
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chug half the bottle of Gatorade in my car, pour some of the vodka into the
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Gatorade bottle because I couldn't even wait the seven or eight minutes that
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it took me to get home because the relief was such a,
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you know, it was so, had such a grip on me.
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And so, yeah, the balance of that mental obsession and the physical craving
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that takes place and accompanies people with all sorts of different addictions
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was certainly a part of my story.
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Additionally, I think that oftentimes, too, addiction is both the problem and the solution.
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So our compulsive behaviors or our compulsive pursuit of a substance,
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you know, both certainly has great consequences.
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And for me, I sought relief or the solution from those consequences in the drink
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or the drug or the lustful behavior, whatever it might be.
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And so that's how I would describe this spiritual death cycle of addiction,
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whereas the problem and the solution become the same thing and just take us
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lower and lower into the pits of despair.
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That is so, so fascinating. And it makes me think of a conversation I had with
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an exorcist of all people explaining that there are three phases to demonic possession.
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It starts with obsession.
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That's one of them is it can anyway. It's one of the forms is obsession,
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oppression and possession. And it seems like this.
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Do you believe that? I mean, the devil had a big role in this,
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in this cycle of making you feel shame, guilt and fear for where you were at
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and also tempting you with, you know, just, hey, it'll all be all right. right?
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You went too hard earlier today when you said you don't need this or you should
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stop. You know, that was all nonsense.
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Do you feel that the devil had a play in your life during that time?
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I think it's, yeah, very likely. I certainly don't want to diminish the spiritual
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battle that is at play with those who are impacted by addiction.
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And those three phases seem very appropriate to apply to one's experience with
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addictive or compulsive behaviors.
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The obsession, and certainly then the possession.
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It was described to me early in my recovery that addiction or alcoholism is,
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we refer to it as a disease, a spiritual disease, and I might extend that to
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be a spiritual family disease that impacts the whole family and all need some
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cure and treatment from,
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that alcoholism and addiction is the only disease which makes you believe that
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you don't have a disease.
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And we rationalize, go to great
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lengths in order to rationalize our bad behavior, our selfish behavior.
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And that helps to give some justification to our pursuit of these substances
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or behaviors that might provide temporary relief,
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but ultimately are the source of most of our problems individually,
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as a family, and even as a community or as a world.
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So yeah, I think that there is a cyclical nature that the father of lies has
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a grip on us and seeks to keep us stuck in this death cycle of addiction.
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Absolutely. And we're talking all about the incredible grip,
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the intense grip that addiction can have on our lives, especially with alcoholism.
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We're talking about your great journey. And of course, now I want to ask about the fix.
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What was the big fix? You talked about the program you went through,
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and I just had on the show a Catholic counselor. And by the end of the conversation,
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I thought, why would anyone go to non-Catholic counseling?
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And I'm sure I'm going to wonder why would anyone go through,
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you know, another type of recovery that's not Catholic?
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I feel like that's the reality is we live in a Catholic reality, a Catholic universe.
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But all that, you know, you might disagree with me on something I said there,
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but I want to cover all that in just one moment.
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Hello, everyone, and welcome to Catholic Conversations. This is part two of three.
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I'm your host, Paul Garcia, and I am joined by the one and only Scott Wieman,
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the founder of Catholic in Recovery, a powerful ministry that blends the spiritual
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wisdom of the Catholic Church with the healing tools of 12-step recovery.
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And Scott's not shy about it. He's been sharing a great journey through addiction,
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battling addiction, overcoming addiction, all with the saving grace of our beautiful
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Catholic faith, and probably a few other things as well that we're going to get to.
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But Scott, we had just talked about, and you did a great job in describing it,
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the pains and the intense grip that addiction can have on one's life in their
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mind, the battles with justifying or explaining away, you know,
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I'm not actually addicted or I don't need help.
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I'm too young to really be an alcoholic.
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I want to know what was the big fix? What was the answer to all your prayers?
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I would probably simplify it by saying fellowship and the grace of God.
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And, you know, the fellowship of others who have walked through a similar path.
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You know, there was for years during my active alcoholism and addiction,
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which I wouldn't have described it as such during the time.
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I would have just said I could stop this at any time that I want to,
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or again, make other rationalizations.
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But the fellowship of people who have been in my shoes helps to recognize that
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there is a solution to this.
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And I can live life with peace and purpose and joy, something that I thought
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was not going to be possible, that I would essentially, if I wasn't drinking
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or using drugs, that life just wouldn't have the same pizzazz to it.
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And a lot of that was, you know, believing, you know, really clinging tightly
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to this crutch, this thing that was allowing me or a very effective means of
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escaping the realities of life.
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And, you know, I really withdrew from my family, from my, you know,
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responsibilities, from my vocation.
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And yeah, that was very damaging. And it wasn't until an experience with rock
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bottom really recognizing that everything that I was, was important to me was
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gone as a result of my selfish and alcoholic behavior that I, you know,
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had hazardly or really maybe without a ton of hope walked into the rooms of recovery.
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And, you know, the joy and the peace that those people shared with me was really critical.
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And also then the journey, you know, integrating the 12 steps into my life and
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starting to work through the steps.
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First, you know, admitting that I was powerless over alcoholism and addiction
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and making really getting honest with myself about all the consequences that
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had taken place as a result.
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My pursuit of unhealthy behaviors and substances.
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And then moreover, through really a surrender to God, a radical surrender to His will.
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And that meant being honest with myself and other people and kind of digging
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into what's at the core, what's at the center of my disease.
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You know, I said before, alcoholism or drugs or food or lust or gambling or
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internet and technology are but symptoms of a deeper spiritual malady.
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And so needing to get to the root of that malady, that illness,
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and what lies at the center of most of our addictive illnesses is resentment, fear, shame.
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And so through steps four and five, doing a thorough moral inventory of myself
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with the help of a sponsor,
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recognizing all of the resentments that I was holding and seeing how much fear
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was playing into my behavior helped to take away the power that fear and resentment held over me.
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And then doing a lot of the work to bring justice to situations that I had wronged
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in making amends with those who I had harmed, or at least becoming willing to make amends.
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And I remember, and if what I'm describing sounds a lot like the sacrament of confession,
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you're right on, Whereas I think that the steps, particularly steps four through
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nine, are really the fullness of the sacrament of reconciliation in the preparation,
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then the act of confessing and asking God to remove whatever defects of character
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stand in our way of serving Him and others.
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And then a penance, or as we in recovery would refer to as an amends.
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In making a list of all persons we had wronged and becoming willing to make amends to them all.
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You know, part of that process that Michael overlooked sometimes is really,
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you know, I spent a lot of time praying every day for the people who I had wronged.
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And some of those people I felt, well, they had wronged me just as much,
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if not more, than I had wronged them.
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And so, you know, praying every day for their well-being and for the intentions, their intentions.
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Even when I didn't mean it at first, helped to tenderize my heart in a way that
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I could really just bring forth to them what I had done wrong and seeking reconciliation.
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And I had to be void of any kind of rationalizations or blaming or trying to
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clean up anyone else's side of the street, but certainly just looking at what
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did I do that needs to be cleaned up.
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And then from there, you know, making that a pattern and recognizing,
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you know, not how have I been wronged, but what was my role in,
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what's my role in this resentment that I might be holding?
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And really being, taking responsibility for that and being accountable to keeping
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my side of the street clean, helping.
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And then, and so, you know, in turn, as God and others have so freely helped
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me, then being willing to help other people.
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And that provided a great sense of purpose and joy in life that I really hadn't
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experienced until then.
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Wow. Well, Scott, I got to say you answered my question there,
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but you gave me about 10 more.
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I mean, that was so fascinating. I want to know what the, what were those consequences
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that from your addiction, what was rock bottom? I want to know, I wrote these down.
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You mentioned what you have to wonder what your role is in that resentment that
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you have towards someone or something.
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I thought that was very interesting. And the maturity that that takes to ask
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yourself that it's high, you know, so that had to be a difficult thing.
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It probably is for a lot of people.
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I'm curious what the 12 steps are, but there's so many different places we could go.
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Maybe I'll just pick one from here and, and you can run with it and maybe enter all the others.
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But what was rock bottom for you?
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You mentioned that you had to see those consequences and you You hit rock bottom.
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What did that look like in summary?
25:29
Yeah, so the background is, and I mentioned moving from Wisconsin to San Diego
25:34
in this attempt to keep my relationship with this woman who had become my idol alive.
25:40
And I was really putting a heavy burden on her in our very codependent relationship
25:45
in that she was really essentially playing God. Or I had put her in a position
25:51
to be my God, and that's unhealthy for any human being to carry.
25:55
And it's just a burden that no human being can carry outside of our Lord Jesus Christ.
26:01
And so it was about a year after moving to San Diego that she clearly was no
26:08
longer interested in the relationship.
26:10
And I had hurt her in a way that couldn't be redeemed. And there was this day,
26:15
you know, the day, really maybe two days before I got sober,
26:18
where she had come to my apartment after breaking up with me and really expressing
26:22
that, you know, this isn't going to work.
26:26
You know, I had told her that I was going to get help and that I was going to
26:29
really turn my life around, which I hadn't done. It was all lip service.
26:33
And I remember her walking or knocking on the door of my apartment and coming,
26:37
making a kind of a surprise visit and, you know, almost as if she was excited to see me.
26:43
And then her, this smile turned to this look of disgust when she had smelled
26:47
the marijuana that was in my little studio apartment.
26:50
And, you know, I just look on her face and her looking me in the eyes and saying,
26:54
Scott, you are absolutely hopeless. You are never going to change.
26:58
And that just seemed to hit home. And it was exactly the way that I was feeling,
27:02
but I was absolutely hopeless and I was never going to change.
27:05
And so she left disgusted. I was totally disgusted with myself,
27:10
ashamed, afraid, and drank myself to sleep that night.
27:16
The next day, took my little beach cruiser bike and rode it down to Mission
27:20
Bay in San Diego, pushed it through the heavy sand,
27:23
picked up my phone, which seemed to weigh about 500 pounds at the time,
27:27
called my mom, my dad, three of my closest friends from back home and told them
27:31
what they already knew, which was that I had a problem.
27:33
And that's really where, you know, the next day, I, Monday, October 10th,
27:38
2011, walked into a 12-step recovery group and everything changed from there.
27:44
So that was what rock bottom looked like for me. There is no absolute as far
27:49
as how we experience rock bottom.
27:51
You know, really rock bottom happens when we stop digging and think there's
27:55
a lot that we can learn from the experience of other people.
27:58
And it was when, you know, attending meetings on a regular basis,
28:02
recovery meetings, and hearing my story through the stories of others that slowly
28:07
over time produced hope.
28:09
And so I wish there was, you know, I was looking for a quick fix in the bottle
28:13
or in other substances and behaviors.
28:15
And, you know, God doesn't work in that way, in that measure,
28:18
but He was very patient, offered a ton of grace as i began to really dive into
28:23
my faith learning about our lord jesus christ.
28:26
Participating in the sacraments and attending recovery meetings and getting honest with myself.
28:31
I would say, you know, I was dishonest always, but probably most dishonest with
28:36
myself and started to really believe the lies that I was telling other people
28:40
and telling myself and, you know, that there needed to be a breakthrough there.
28:43
And that was, I can't imagine another way.
28:46
Really kind of humility via humiliation was my experience.
28:51
Right. That's a great way to put it. Humility through by way of humiliation.
28:56
And hey, whatever it takes, I guess. And it's so interesting.
29:00
Researching you, talking to you, you're so well-spoken. You're such a professional.
29:03
You're a very smart individual. You have your hands in so many different ventures.
29:07
And to hear that just a few years ago, someone said to you, Scott,
29:12
you're absolutely hopeless. You're never going to change.
29:15
That's almost hard to believe, but I guess that's what makes a great story here.
29:20
And I want to ask now, what is Catholic in recovery and how is it different
29:24
from a typical 12-step program?
29:27
I've satisfied my curiosity a lot, and there are listeners' curiosity here.
29:31
I better ask, yeah, what is your program, Catholic in Recovery?
29:35
Yeah, so my background in finding 12-step recovery and returning to the church was so critical.
29:43
And these two life-giving entities that really saved my life,
29:47
the church and 12-step recovery, were seemingly running in parallel lanes, but not much overlap.
29:53
There were certain people in my 12-step recovery groups who I also saw at my parish on Sundays.
29:58
But, you know, so over time, a couple of years into my own recovery,
30:02
having found this new freedom, new life, new joy,
30:05
I recognized the church could learn a lot from what happens in 12-step recovery
30:10
groups in the way that we share in such an honest and humble way,
30:12
in our desperate need for fellowship and reliance upon one another and God.
30:18
And also that there were a lot of people in 12-step recovery groups who are
30:21
longing for a deeper relationship with their higher power.
30:25
And, you know, perhaps even, you know, some spiritual story,
30:31
we might hear some, there's certainly been a secularization of 12-step recovery
30:35
groups as our culture has become more secularized.
30:38
And so, you know, and sometimes you might even hear in a 12-step group,
30:41
someone described themselves as a recovering Catholic, as if it's a condition
30:45
that needs to be recovered from.
30:47
Anyway, so I started a website, catholicandrecovery.com, which really was just
30:51
writing blog articles related to our faith and addiction recovery and topics that overlap the two.
30:58
And there was not much in the church that was really speaking about the experience
31:02
of people with addiction or recovering from addictions.
31:05
Six to eight months into that or so, I got an email from a woman from Ave Maria
31:09
Press, Catholic publisher out of Notre Dame, asking if I was interested in writing a book.
31:14
And she had read some of my articles and stories and thought that it might make
31:19
for a good resource to be put into a book.
31:21
That was far from my plans, and she was really a huge grace.
31:26
And as I was writing the manuscript for the book, this was like late 2016,
31:30
I did a four-week series. I did some local speaking in San Diego where I was living.
31:35
And four-week series at the St. Joseph Cathedral, really on the overlap between
31:40
the sacraments and the 12 steps.
31:42
Anyway, the best part of those nights, those speaking nights,
31:45
was when I was done talking and other people had a chance to share freely their
31:49
challenges with addiction or their recovery or their loved ones' challenges with addiction.
31:54
But through the lens of our faith and sacraments and scripture and Catholic
31:58
saints, devotions, that might be a little bit too specific to refer to in a
32:02
12-step recovery meeting, and it became very clear. We need to keep bringing
32:06
these people together on a regular basis.
32:08
So we formed our first Catholic in Recovery Group at St. Joseph Cathedral in January 2017.
32:14
The book was later published in November of that year, and we put a format together,
32:19
bringing people together who some were new to the church but in recovery for
32:23
some time, some have been in the church for a long time,
32:26
but their life was darkened by an addiction or a compulsive behavior.
32:31
And in blending those people together, others were in recovery and in the church,
32:35
but looking for a place where they could integrate the ball and just created
32:39
this blend of people who were finding new life or returning to our Lord or coming
32:44
to Jesus for the first time.
32:45
There was one gentleman that first year who was fully baptized and received
32:50
into the church by way of finding Catholic in recovery and returning to the
32:53
church or coming to the church that way.
32:55
Next year, we had a gentleman in that group who returned to the sacrament of
32:58
confession for the first time in over 50 years. 50? Five-zero? Yeah.
33:04
And his life, he had turned away from God and the church, found recovery,
33:09
and slowly being drawn back to the church.
33:12
And yeah, it was just wonderful to see how Catholic and Recovery was providing
33:16
a place for people in the church and in recovery who maybe have felt in the past, like,
33:22
I need to take my Catholic hat off before I go into a recovery meeting,
33:25
or take my recovery hat off before I go into the church, but,
33:28
you know, really being fully integrated in both.
33:31
And the book was published, it's some Catholic media, and word got out about Catholic and recovery.
33:37
You know, fast forward to today, we've got 200 active Catholic and recovery
33:40
meetings serving people around the world, about 130 in-person meetings.
33:45
Throughout the U.S., Canada, and Mexico, and about 70 weekly virtual meetings
33:49
that serve people with a variety of different addictions as well as family members
33:53
impacted by a loved one's addiction.
33:55
Right, wow, incredible. I really love the part where you said the gentleman
34:00
who hadn't been to confession in 50 years returned to confession,
34:04
and that just reminds me of the story of the prodigal son, the parable,
34:07
you know, God's mercy, forgiveness, and the joy over one sinner who repents
34:11
and how all of heaven rejoices over that, even more than someone who never left
34:15
And it's just so beautiful.
34:16
And I think it's so great that the Catholics in Recovery, that group that got
34:21
together at that cathedral, we need a lot more of that.
34:24
And you're doing so many great things. I still have to ask about the Recovery
34:27
Rosary. And I'm going to do that here in just a moment.
34:30
And I'm going to ask you a lot more questions than that. I want to ask about
34:33
the types of individuals you help, the addictions or struggles that you help
34:36
people with. I'm curious, what is your main gig?
34:40
Which is, what do you define yourself as mostly? All that in just one moment. and more than just that.
34:46
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36:22
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Heavenly Father, source of all holiness, you raise up within the Church in every
36:30
age men and women who serve with heroic love and dedication.
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You have blessed your church through the life and ministry of your faithful
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servant, Archbishop Fulton J.
36:40
Sheen. He has written and spoken well of your divine Son, Jesus Christ,
36:44
and was a true instrument of the Holy Spirit in touching the hearts of countless people.
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If it be according to your will, for the honor and glory of the Most Holy Trinity
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and the salvation of souls, we ask you to move the church to proclaim him a saint.
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We ask this prayer through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
37:07
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Catholic Conversations on Catholic Spirit
37:11
Radio. I'm your host, Paul Garcia,
37:13
and today I am honored to be joined by Scott Wieman over the phone.
37:16
He is the founder of Catholic in Recovery, a powerful ministry that blends the
37:20
spiritual wisdom of Catholic teachings with the healing tools of 12-step recovery.
37:25
He does a lot more than just that.
37:26
He's written a couple books. He is a counselor, a therapist,
37:31
an author, a speaker, a husband, and a father, and it's really great to have him with us today.
37:36
Scott, where we left off, we were just talking about the group that got together,
37:41
the gentleman who had been to confession after 50 years, and all sorts of other things.
37:45
But I want to ask, before I forget here, can you tell us about the Recovery Rosary?
37:50
How did that come to be, and how was it used?
37:54
Yeah, the Recovery Rosary, recently published by Ave Maria Press,
37:57
is a book of meditations written by members of the Catholic in Recovery who
38:03
come with a variety of different types of addictions,
38:06
some experiencing and finding freedom from the family, spiritual disease of addiction.
38:11
And is a tool or really a book that can be used in a group setting or as an
38:15
individual, and has, you know, at the beginning of how to pray the rosary.
38:20
We get a lot of people who are coming back to the church or to the church for
38:23
the first time, and some of these Catholic devotions, such as the rosary or
38:27
Divine Mercy Chaplet or other prayers, sacramental rites and such, are quite new.
38:33
So that can be helpful for people to renew or find a new relationship with Jesus
38:39
through Mary and the rosary.
38:41
And there are 20 different mysteries of the rosary, each with a different meditation
38:47
that shares the experience, strength, and hope of various individuals who have overcome addiction.
38:54
And what I think is really beautiful about this book is the honest and frank
38:59
language that's used and really making it a very personal experience.
39:05
I think sometimes we can intellectualize our understanding of Mary in some ways,
39:10
but this brings just down-to-earth real-life examples of how people have come
39:14
to form a new relationship with Mary that's bringing them closer to Jesus.
39:20
The crucifixion is one of my favorites. This is a story written by a mother
39:25
who lost her son to a drug overdose.
39:27
With her ton of humility relating her story to that of Mary's experience.
39:32
Understanding that we can't truly understand what Mary was going through at
39:35
the cross, but having a similar experience to that, I think very inspiring and
39:41
showcases the grace of God.
39:43
Additionally, the ascension of the Lord is written by a recovering addict who
39:47
depicts the pain of wanting to escape the world through the pain of the Lord
39:51
unhealthy behaviors, substances, and also Christ's presence with him,
39:55
even through his active addiction and into his recovery.
39:58
And I think that the meditations, the reflections found here,
40:01
along with some of the reflection questions, can bring us into a deeper understanding
40:05
of the power of the rosary and make it accessible for all.
40:10
I really loved how earlier in our conversation you said so eloquently and so
40:14
simply, really, that really the root cause of a lot of this,
40:19
of course, you mentioned resentment more specifically for you,
40:23
but it could be a lot of different things for a lot of people,
40:25
but it all kind of generalizes as escaping the realities of life.
40:29
And there's so many different unpleasant realities in so many of our lives.
40:33
And I think that moral inventory too, that you mentioned earlier,
40:36
I thought that was just so fascinating.
40:39
And if you can, regarding the 12 steps, we've referenced it so much.
40:44
Everyone has heard of it. But what are the 12 steps? Are they short enough to say or summarize?
40:52
Yeah, we rattle them off. And the first step, step one, which is really the
40:56
only step that is in the recovery literature, the only step that we need to
41:01
do 100% or perfectly in some ways, although we can't do it perfectly.
41:07
And that is, one, we admitted we were powerless over fill-in-the-blank,
41:11
alcohol, lust, drugs, that our lives had become unmanageable.
41:15
Step two, came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
41:19
Step three, made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care
41:23
of God as we understood him.
41:25
Step four, made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
41:29
Step five, admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact
41:32
nature of our wrongs, which again sounds a lot like confession.
41:36
Step six, humbly asked him to remove our shortcomings. Step seven,
41:41
made a decision to, I guess, yeah.
41:44
Step six and seven is essentially, you know, humbly ask him to remove whatever
41:47
defects of character stand in the way of serving him and others.
41:51
Step eight, made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.
41:55
Step nine, made direct amends to such people, except where to do so would injure them or others.
42:00
Step 10, continue to take personal inventory and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
42:05
Step 11, sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact
42:09
with God as we understood him, praying only for the knowledge of his will for
42:12
us and the power to carry that out,
42:14
And step 12, having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps,
42:19
we continue to practice these principles in all of our affairs and use the opportunity to help others.
42:25
And so there's, yeah, we, you know, kind of overlap them with the sacrament,
42:29
steps one, two, and three, overlapping with the sacrament of baptism,
42:33
and really our desperate plea and need for power greater than ourselves or a
42:38
relationship with our Lord.
42:39
Whereas we don't, you know, it's not about identifying ourselves by our addiction.
42:43
When I say, my name's Scott, I'm an addict and an alcoholic,
42:46
I'm not saying I define myself by the darkest part of my lives,
42:50
but rather that I have experienced a relationship with God that has brought
42:55
freedom from this strong grip of
42:58
addiction, and ultimately that I find my identity as a beloved son of God.
43:03
In steps four through nine, we overlap with the Sacrament of Reconciliation,
43:06
seeing a lot of the congruency and overlap in the sacrament of reconciliation with those steps.
43:12
Steps 10 and 11 are like our daily bread, the strength that we gain from the Eucharist.
43:17
And I think there's no greater conscious contact with God than our reception
43:21
of Him through the Eucharist.
43:23
And then in step 12, we're really called as an imperative to help other people
43:28
and to deepen our spiritual life one day at a time.
43:32
In our confirmation, we are given the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
43:35
And as a result are called to make disciples of all nations or share the good news.
43:40
And I think that I see discipleship. There's a lot of discipleship and evangelization
43:45
that we can learn from those who are freely giving away their recovery.
43:49
And the way I see it, the greatest gifts in life, our faith,
43:52
my sobriety, our life itself can only be kept if we're willing to give them away.
43:58
Right. And you mentioned, of course, so much there, the sacraments.
44:01
And there's a reason I'm not a counselor or a therapist like you.
44:04
I'm not a professional like you. It's because I'm too pushy and too aggressive.
44:08
I can think of some friends who have battled with things, even minor addictions,
44:13
maybe more serious addictions than I realize.
44:15
But I asked him, are you receiving the sacraments? And to mention the exorcist
44:19
again, one of his first questions, if he speaks to anybody who thinks they might
44:24
be oppressed or even possessed is, are you receiving the sacraments?
44:28
It's such a massive channel for grace to enter our lives.
44:33
So my question is, do you think that the sacraments, maybe specifically communion
44:38
or the Eucharist and confession, are those really powerful things for helping
44:43
someone battle back and get their life back from addiction?
44:47
I think it's critical. I think that the, yeah, I think it's such a real,
44:51
especially if we understand what's truly happening, the face-to-face encounter
44:56
with Jesus through reconciliation or the intimate connection with Jesus through
45:02
the Eucharist, as such is so necessary.
45:05
The reception of mercy and hearing the words of absolution coming from a priest
45:10
who takes on the form of Christ and delivers that, you know,
45:15
truly our identity as His beloved children is so necessary.
45:20
And then also the regular reception of the Eucharist is our,
45:23
you know, really our strength to continue on and to, I would say,
45:29
to be broken down like Jesus was, but then also to be really brought back up
45:34
in this communal loaf and communal cup.
45:36
And yeah, this can be such a form of strength and also, helps us to both heal
45:43
and come to know Christ's will for us.
45:46
Right. And of course, when people hear all this, and I apologize,
45:50
I have so many questions for you. I'm trying to manage my time here.
45:54
One first question, then I'll follow it up. How does someone even know if they
45:57
are addicted? Are there signs?
46:00
When did you realize that, okay, now I see it's a problem?
46:04
Yeah, I would say, well, first, if anyone's asking themselves this,
46:09
we have on our website, CatholicInRecovery.com, some assessments that you can
46:13
take related to a variety of different types of addictions.
46:16
So anyone who's asking themselves this question, I'll encourage you to come
46:19
to our website and maybe take this assessment yourself.
46:22
Of course, it's a conclusion that we need to come to ourselves.
46:26
And I think, you know, for me, I kind of knew it all along, although I was unwilling
46:30
to face the truth that there was something wrong, that I had an unhealthy relationship
46:35
with alcohol and drugs, you know, even lust or gambling.
46:40
But I wasn't willing to, you know, I didn't think that there was any solution.
46:43
So what's the point of even addressing or acknowledging the problem?
46:47
Again, you know, at times, too, alcohol and drugs was much more of my solution
46:52
than it was my problem. Of course, it was a solution to the problems that were
46:55
caused by alcohol and drugs, hence the vicious cycle of addiction.
46:59
But I think that there are ways,
47:02
I mean, there's some clinical kind of definitions of what is addiction.
47:06
Oftentimes, that's defined by an increased tolerance.
47:10
We need an increased amount or a greater severity of the behavior or substance
47:15
in order to achieve the same results.
47:17
It also assumes some consequences, relationship consequences,
47:22
career, educational consequences, social consequences, personal consequences,
47:27
loss of esteem, shame, you know, depression, anxiety, things of that nature.
47:31
And I would say that from a spiritual perspective as well, you know,
47:35
this trying to fill this God-shaped hole in our hearts with everything but God
47:40
was my experience, kind of seeking God in all the wrong places.
47:44
And I believe that my pursuit of, you know, this escape, the feeling that I
47:49
got from alcohol, drugs, other behaviors was a cheap attempt at finding God, if you will.
47:58
Right. Wow. Scott is dropping one liners like it's his job here,
48:03
trying to fill the God sized hole in your heart with anything but God.
48:06
It's always a futile effort.
48:09
Well, so say someone has, they know they have an addiction and they know they
48:14
need help. Their lives may be falling apart.
48:16
Go ahead and tell us what are the fruits of recovery?
48:21
Why should someone want to even cure their addiction or find recovery?
48:26
What's the big deal? What's the payoff?
48:28
Yeah, it can be hard to see sometimes is where our mind and our judgment is
48:33
so clouded by addiction.
48:35
And, you know, it becomes this thing, you know, this cycle of shame tells us I'm not lovable.
48:41
If people really knew me, they would reject me. So I need to find something
48:44
that I can rely on in order to meet my needs and therefore, you know, fill in the blank.
48:50
Alcohol, drugs, lust, food, control is my greatest need and source of comfort.
48:55
Now, the cycle of spiritual recovery helps us to understand,
48:58
and it takes some time to realize this, requires fellowship and the connection
49:02
with others to realize I am lovable. If people knew me, they could love me more.
49:07
And so, therefore, God and healthy relationships are my greatest need and source of comfort.
49:11
And for me, I would say that the renewed esteem, the ability to look myself
49:17
in the eye and not be ashamed at what I found or what I saw is kind of this intangible gift.
49:25
That it's hard to put a price on.
49:27
There are other tangible gifts that I can point to, such as my wife,
49:32
who I met a few years into my recovery in the young adult community that was
49:36
so important to my renewal of faith, and my three kids.
49:40
They're now six, four, and three years old, and they're beginning to understand
49:45
as well what I do for work and what propels my passion to help others and how
49:50
I've come to know God through the renewal of life that I found in recovery.
49:55
I mean, getting to enjoy and share life with them is probably the greatest gift of my recovery.
50:00
And it was also, you know, impressed upon me very early on.
50:04
Don't let the life that recovery gives you get in the way of your recovery life,
50:08
which means that I can't, you know, I'm never fully recovered,
50:12
if you will, or at least, you know, I'm not, I'm still not immune from,
50:16
you know, the next drink or drug, which could take me out and just erase all
50:20
of these good things that God has put in my life.
50:23
And so I need to be very vigilant about staying in the solution.
50:26
And today that looks like, you know, attending recovery meetings,
50:29
participating in my faith, sacramental life of the church, helping other people
50:34
as others have freely helped me.
50:36
And that has created a life of purpose and joy and, you know, satisfaction.
50:41
Not every day is perfect, but, you know, the worst days in recovery are so much
50:47
greater than even the best days in active addiction.
50:50
Right, right. Right. Do you just curious here, do you find yourself at all in like a state of anxiety?
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I mean, you are the emotional and psychological expert here.
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Do you live in anxiety saying, oh, boy, the next thing that could really derail
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me is just it's right around the corner. It's that easy.
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Does that worry you or do you have peace nonetheless?
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Yeah, I would say my anxieties don't come from the idea that,
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you know, I might take a drink today or tomorrow or, you know,
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that I might reach for a drug instead of reaching for God.
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I try to, you know, certainly live one day at a time and, you know,
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do what I can today in order to be part of, you know, kind of find that spiritual solution.
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I can't rely on what I did yesterday to stay sober and keep me in God's grip today.
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But yeah, I certainly am, you know, deal with my own anxieties,
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which are more, you know, kind of around relationships and responsibilities
51:45
and such. It's not so much fear of the drink.
51:47
You know, I feel very, you know, content today that God has that all taken care of.
51:53
I love it. I love it. And it's so interesting listening to this conversation
51:56
and comparing it to the conversation I had with an exorcist or things we've
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learned about even the demonic and our Catholic faith on this show,
52:04
on all the shows we have on this station, because it just seems like the devil's
52:09
in the details here with addiction. You know, evil wants to enslave.
52:13
God wants to free. It seems like addiction really enslaves. It destroys relationships
52:17
and peace, which is exactly what God wants to bring about.
52:20
It replaces God, so to speak, somewhat as your kind of focus of your life.
52:26
The guilt, the shame, the despair, those are all very symbolic or connected
52:30
to the demonic and lies, isolation that you tell yourself that you've tell others sometimes.
52:35
I just can't help but see the spiritual component within addiction.
52:39
And it's apparent that you see that to some extent as well.
52:43
And as we wind down this conversation, it has sure been great, Scott.
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I is it that you want people to know after they're done listening to this conversation?
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What do you want them to take away from it?
52:57
Yeah, thanks, Paul. I really just am grateful for this conversation and the
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ability, opportunity to share hope.
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And my hope is that anyone who's listening today who is.
53:08
Can relate to some of the things that we discussed, you know,
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the despair, the darkness,
53:12
the hopelessness, to realize that you're not alone and that God cares for you
53:18
desperately, desperately wants your return and, you know, respects our free
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will in a way that He's not going to force it upon us.
53:25
But we'll also provide some invitations. And sometimes those invitations might
53:28
not, may not be the way that we want them to be.
53:31
They may be invitations via humility or challenges or maybe just letting go
53:37
and recognizing I can't do this alone anymore.
53:39
You know, for me, the worst thing that could possibly happen was my alcoholism
53:43
and my addiction being exposed and having to face the truth and face the reality of that.
53:48
And that happened and ultimately turned out to be the best thing that's ever happened to me.
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And so it just, you know, trust in our Lord, trust in our Lord,
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connect with others who can pour into you, who can be the eyes of Christ,
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be the eyes of God, our Father, which are the truest, most tenderest,
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loving eyes in the world.
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And we can connect with people here on earth who have walked our path and can
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be a representative of the body of Christ.
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And so don't be afraid. You know, if you're on the sidelines and you're thinking,
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maybe I need to do something about this today.
54:22
Well, maybe I'll do something about tomorrow, which I told myself almost every day for several years.
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You know, Tomorrow is not going to come, but today is an opportunity to cooperate
54:32
and receive the grace of God that He so desperately wants to offer us.
54:37
Absolutely. Could not agree more. Just like the angel Gabriel said,
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and all the angels in the Bible, they say, do not be afraid.
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They first show up. There's good things to come. Do not be afraid, although it is so scary.
54:49
And I think Mother Teresa had a quote similar to what you just said,
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that tomorrow has not yet come and yesterday is gone. We only have today, so let's get to work.
54:59
And I love it. Everything you said, Scott, I think people are really going to
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benefit and they already have benefited from all of the content that you've
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shared, the books you've published, Catholic in Recovery, the Recovery Rosary,
55:11
the 12 Steps in the Sacraments, one of your two books, and the Catholic in Recovery workbook as well.
55:16
Where can people find out more about you?
55:20
Yeah, catholicinrecovery.com. It's a place where you can find a directory of
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Catholic in Recovery meetings that are taking place in person throughout the
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U.S., Canada, and Mexico, as well as virtual meetings that are taking place every day.
55:32
There is a home for you. You are not alone, and we welcome you.
55:36
We look forward to seeing you in meetings.
55:37
Additionally, people on catholicandrecovery.com will find a variety of resources,
55:42
assessments to discern, do I have an addiction or a compulsion?
55:46
Is there a problem? What can I do about it?
55:48
Pathway of Recovery that will walk through the first 90 days of recovery with
55:52
you and provide resources,
55:54
videos, and other resources that integrate 12-step recovery with the Catholic
55:58
faith and accompany you through the process of enriching your faith and finding
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freedom from whatever addiction, compulsion, or unhealthy attachment is trying to take you down.
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So catholicandrecovery.com, you'll find a variety of resources.
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And if you're in recovery and maybe you're thinking yourself,
56:17
well, there's not a Catholic in Recovery group in my community yet. I'd like to start one.
56:20
There is a place in the website too under support and serve to start a new meeting.
56:24
You can inquire with us and we'll walk with you through the process of getting
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a new Catholic and recovery meeting started in your community.
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We're here to serve. I love it. Beautiful.
56:34
Catholicandrecovery.com. Listeners, don't forget it. And listeners,
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thank you for tuning in to Catholic Conversations on Catholic Spirit Radio.
56:41
That was Scott Wieman. And until next time, may God bless you all and keep you
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on the path of freedom, healing, and grace.
56:48
And until next weekend, we'll talk to you then and may God bless.
56:52
And Scott, again, thank you so much for your time.
56:54
Yeah, thank you, Paul. You've been listening to Catholic Conversations.
56:57
Download our podcasts at catholicspiritradio.com.
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Music.