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From Meh to Meaningful | A Cynic’s Guide to Compassion with Troy Lydiate · Neighbourly: Real Stories of Care and Community

• 0:02
  Me honoring that person has nothing to do with their perfection. It's me
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  knowing that they've been made in the image of God. And so, just as much
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  as they're susceptible to fail, there's also a very good
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  opportunity for them to actually succeed. And I just want to be one of the
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  people that's there to see. What a cynicism isn't just
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  skepticism. It's self protection. And what if it's not
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  just about doubting others, but about avoiding disappointment?
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  We don't start out as cynical, but if somewhere along the way we get
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  burned, and sometimes it's just easier to stay that
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  way. But what if there's another way?
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  This is Journey with Care, a podcast by Care Impact where
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  curious Canadians find inspiration to love others well through real
• 0:47
  life stories and honest conversations.
• 0:54
  It's easy to slip into cynicism. But when it settles into
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  indifference, we risk losing something far greater.
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  It's one thing to question whether something will work, but after a while,
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  if we're not careful, we just stop caring altogether. We hear about another
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  initiative, another big idea, another story of someone trying to make a
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  difference, and instead of engaging, we shrug and
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  think, yeah, good luck with that. I think about Brandon
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  Stanton, the creator of Humans in New York. Before he became a
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  storyteller, he was living in a world that had nothing to do with people's stories.
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  He was a bond trader, staring at screens, watching markets rise and
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  fall, making decisions about things that didn't feel personal. And
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  when you live like that, it's easy to get cynical, easy to believe that
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  everything is just a transaction. And then he lost his job.
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  And instead of scrambling to get back into that same world, he did
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  something different. He picked up a camera.
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  At first, he was just about taking pictures. But the more he stopped and
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  talked to people, the more he realized everyone had a story.
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  Strangers on park benches, people rushing down sidewalks, ordinary
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  faces with extraordinary lives. And the more he
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  listened, the more he cared. And the more he cared, the more he saw.
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  What started as a personal project turned into something so much
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  bigger. A movement that has connected millions of people
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  across the world simply by reminding us that every person
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  has a story worth hearing. And it makes me wonder,
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  what if the biggest change we can make starts by simply
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  choosing to see again? Choosing to care even when
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  cynicism tells us that it's not worth it. So what do we do with
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  that? How do we challenge that part of us that wants to disengage, to
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  assume the worst, to stay in the safety of those cheap seats.
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  That's what we're talking about today because cynicism might feel like
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  wisdom. But if it keeps us from showing up, from believing
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  in good, from actually caring, it's costing us much more
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  than we think. Our guest today is Troy Lydiot,
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  a creative and cultural thinker who has spent years navigating the tension
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  between faith, culture, and compassion. Troy is the
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  creative director at Apologetics Canada and host of the AC
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  Podcast. Troy tackles through tough conversations about faith and
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  meaning in a skeptical world. Under the name Scribe Music,
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  Troy has released four studio albums using his music as a bridge
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  between faith and culture, challenging cynicism, sparking
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  honest conversations, and creating space for hope in a skeptical
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  world. So, Wendy, we're gonna hand it off to you now to
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  get this conversation started. Yeah. I would love to. Cynicism
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  is what we're talking about today. And that's actually,
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  I would say, Canada's unofficial love language, if
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  I dare. Oof. We go there. But, Troy, what's a
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  moment where your inner cynic kicked in hard?
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  What's a moment is the the challenge in and of itself.
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  Honestly, I think my where my cynicism has
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  popped up the most is probably when it has come in the realm
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  of certain church culture, I would say, for a prime
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  example. Having people be genuine and
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  having people actually mean what they say. And so for listeners who don't really
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  know me for my music, anyway, I I've been a recording
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  artist for over ten years. And the amount of times I've had
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  different individuals, organizations say, hey, Troy. We wanna work with you. Hey,
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  Troy. We're so excited to having different label
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  representatives. And those sorts of people say, hey, man. We really love what you're
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  doing, and we wanna partner with you. And naturally, as a young
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  artist, I'd be like, wow. This sounds amazing. I would love to do something
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  like that. And next thing you know, like, okay. But you just gotta pay this
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  amount of money, and you can maybe be a part of it. Or, hey. Sorry.
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  We wanted to do this thing, but it's just not formulating. And it just
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  happened time and time again to the point where now I
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  actively fight against my cynicism whenever a new email partnership comes
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  up, and someone's like, hey. We wanna work with you. And I'm like, do you
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  really? So that that's probably one of the most pertinent
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  examples of cynicism, which is kinda creeping in my life. Well and
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  you are for those that haven't heard, go on to Spotify or wherever.
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  You can Google him for Scribe. You are an amazing
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  recording artist resonating with so many people with my kids
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  included. They were excited that I gotta talk with you.
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  But I I relate to what you're saying, Troy. I I feel
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  that sometimes also people love the innovation, the creativity,
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  the the guts that it takes for my innovative team to do
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  something different in Yeah. Between social services and the church, and they're like, wow.
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  That's so cool. But I don't know if you are a follower of
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  Brene Brown. She has this amazing quote in I think it's the book Daring
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  Greatly. Cynicism and sarcasm are the first cousins that
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  hang out in the cheap seats. They're not the real
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  players on the field daring greatly. Yeah.
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  To do the deep work, we have to get through that cynicism, and
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  that goes vice versa. People might also be cynical
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  of, k. Is your music legit? Is that spirit
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  filled? Yes. Can we actually work with social services? And and
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  cynicism is so entrenched here.
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  Maybe to to pitch it this way, why do you think cynicism
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  is so tempting?
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  Well, I mean, I think when I when I think about cynicism, first and
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  foremost, I think of it as a lack
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  of faith in x, whether it's a person, place,
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  or a thing. A person who, I think, becomes a
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  cynic didn't start that way. And I think it's important to remember that, is you
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  actually become a cynic. You're not born a cynic, whether it is
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  unmet expectations or it is reasonable expectations
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  not met. And that's when a person naturally,
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  when those things are repeated, that's when a person becomes a cynic. They
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  no longer have faith in a person following through Mhmm. Or
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  something coming to pass. And per your
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  question, I think one of the challenges for a person who
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  falls into cynicism is that it actually becomes a comfortable
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  place. We become comfortable with cynicism because it helps us build a
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  barrier of protection around us. What's that that term? Aim
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  low. Right? Or how does I I'm not exactly sure how this the saying goes
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  exactly, but it's like if I keep my standards low, then I won't be disappointed.
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  Right? If I aim high and I miss, then there's a greater
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  opportunity for me to be disappointed. And so if I keep my expectations
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  low, then the chances of me getting hurt because someone didn't
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  meet those expectations is far greater. Right? So
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  I've been finding that in order for me to really move
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  past my cynicism, it's actually a call for me to allow myself
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  to be put into the uncomfortable and actually allow people to just be people
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  and and be okay with that. Yeah. I really like that reframe,
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  Troy, because rather than just see
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  cynicism at face value, we are asking the question, what's
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  underneath that? Yeah. What are we masking? What are we not being
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  vulnerable about? What are we protecting? Maybe for good reason.
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  Your example case in point. There's good reason for it and to not
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  shame ourselves for being cynical, but maybe not glorify it in the
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  Canadian way that we tend
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  to do. It it could be a form of passive aggression
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  of not wanting to deal with the deeper rooted things. And,
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  I think that's something that we really need to take to heart. How would you
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  say cynicism, shapes our culture? Where do you see it
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  prevalent? Even in your your interactions with Apologetics Canada that
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  you're very much involved with, you must be dealing with it on a national
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  scale in many on both sides, on the the faith side and also the
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  secular. Where do you see that shaping our culture?
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  Well, I think people are always on the tiptoes of the next
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  catastrophe or the next person falling out of grace.
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  And I think at the core of that is because, one, there's this huge
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  issue of idolatry, like, just across the board. And
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  so we raise people up so quickly that when
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  they fall victim to their humanity, not to minimize what they've
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  done, but when they fall victim to their humanity, we act
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  surprised. Or we're very quick to just take them and throw them out
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  and be like, see, this is what I thought was gonna happen. It's like, okay.
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  So we went into celebrating this person with
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  presuppositions and preconceived notions about what could happen
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  there. It means that there wasn't a real faith that this person actually could
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  be a person of integrity. Right? And you wanna talk about seeing with
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  Apologetics Canada very practically. A lot of people have been hearing all
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  this stuff about Wes Huff and everything that Wes Huff is doing. Right? The
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  amount of people that were also watching just, okay. Well, let's
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  see how long this lasts. Well, let's see wait till they find out
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  that. And I'm like, what do we and I have the I have the
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  the beauty of knowing Wes as a friend and a coworker.
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  And you're talking about a guy who didn't ask for any of this. You talk
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  about a guy who was just making content based on his field of study, who's
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  working on his doctorate. The last thing he needed was to be the poster
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  boy for all things apologetics and theology.
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  Right? That's really cool. So do you feel that Canada is just it's a
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  setup waiting for the shoe to drop to expose
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  the humanity of everybody like Cuff? I I think so.
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  Because I think there there also is a fear
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  of people actually being genuine and good people.
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  Mhmm. Because we I think honor is a really tough thing
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  for people today because of cynicism.
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  Right? I have a great pastor, and I love honoring my pastors.
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  And some people have asked, like, man, you guys, like, speak really highly of
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  your pastors. I mean, like, they're human like everybody else. I'm like, yes. They are.
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  And they're actively pursuing being better people. They're actively
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  pursuing being more integral, being more trustworthy,
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  and ultimately walking out what the faith in
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  Christ asks them to do. Me honoring that person has nothing to do
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  with their perfection. It's me knowing that they've been made in the image of
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  god. And so just as much as they're susceptible to fail,
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  there's also a very good opportunity for them to actually succeed. And
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  I just wanna be one of the people that's there to see it. I wonder
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  if there's people that when they put on a pedestal like that, there's more
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  cynicism that comes out. Like, thinking about Wes again, like, my my
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  eighteen year old son is a huge Wes Huff fan, and this was before Joe
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  Rogan. And then he got put on this pedestal. And then you look online and
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  all the comments, and it's like, oh, well, he didn't say this. He didn't explain
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  this properly. He didn't he wasn't outright preaching the gospel, and that's not what
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  he was trying to do. Yeah. It it and and that's just it.
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  Right? This is where I believe that the big
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  brother cynicism is idolatry. Because I'm not gonna be a cynic
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  towards the Taygo Westhoff situation if I'm not
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  looking for someone to perfect it. Right? If I'm not
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  looking for the person who's gonna who's gonna debunk Joe
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  Rogan like, here's my honest thoughts. If West gives Joe
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  Rogan the gospel, they live in two separate worlds, entirely different
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  worlds. He gives Joe Rogan the gospel, which he did. Joe
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  Rogan, right on his podcast, all of a sudden accepts Jesus Christ as his lord
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  and savior. The next question that people need to ask
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  is, now what? Because right now,
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  as we're seeing, Joe Rogan does not have a kingdom minded
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  accountability group that's gonna hold him up, that's going to help walk
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  this this ministry out with him. Are they expecting Wes to do
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  that? So Wes is supposed to forsake his family, the ministry he's a part of,
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  the things that the lord has called him to back home where he lives. And
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  so I don't think a lot of people are paying attention to that. If
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  anything, anyone who may be in Joe's corner
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  after Wes has delivered the gospel has a greater responsibility
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  of men. Wes set it up for us. And look how receptive Joe was at
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  least hearing it. Right? And I think this is
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  why I I I'll say, like, one of the most dangerous things for a
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  person who is living as a cynic is you're actually
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  pulling yourself away from an actual faith and believing
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  people can be good. And if you actually and as a believer,
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  that actually is coming against what scripture is asking of me and telling me.
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  Yeah. And and I think it it plays itself out in some
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  very secretive, almost, like,
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  like, in ways that we don't even realize it creeping in. Yeah.
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  Especially when like, at Care Impact, we're all about seeing the church
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  engage in community. Yeah. And social services bridging into that and saying,
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  hey. Maybe there is something still left in the church that we can we can
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  Yes. We can reconcile and work forward in a good way. And
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  it
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  sneaks in as, like, within the church, I hear it as much as I hear
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  it as I just came off a call with government. But we've tried
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  that before Yeah. And what happened historically? Or
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  the government should handle it mentality Mhmm. Of, like
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  like, that's not our business. We would have done it better. Or
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  something like, well, maybe a savior complex, like, I would have done
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  it this way. This is how we we as the church are better
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  than. But those are the cheap seats. Yes. Those are the cheap
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  seats because it means that we are being safe and not playing the hard
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  game of seeing human to human in that other
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  person Yeah. And and doing the hard work
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  and getting away with it. Well, I mean, to your point, I
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  did youth working specifically for two separate organizations, one
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  in in Manitoba, one in Saskatchewan. And one of the things I
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  found across the board was cynicism. Right?
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  Just and I was an honored frontline worker with working
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  in youth. Like, not sitting at the executive level, not sitting at even the director
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  level. Actually, didn't want to work at the director level because I loved
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  being in the mix. One of the the most cynical things I
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  saw was a person would re was just the person opening up the
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  file, opening up that person's file, reading why they were in
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  the the program. Most specifically, you could think
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  about someone who maybe was there because of violence, because something had happened,
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  because they did something in school. And now you're watching
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  you're watching staff members walk into that house, like, guarded.
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  I think there's a difference between walking in with wisdom and walking
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  in, like, well, let's see how this goes. I hope he doesn't. And day
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  after day, when you really got to sit with these kids,
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  you realize you know, I coined my own phrase, like, read beyond
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  the file. Like, actually sit when you actually sit with some of these
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  kids and you realize, oh, while I was reading their file,
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  I wasn't seeing the the person in there. Now I'm sitting with this kid,
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  and people are wondering, hey, Troy. How is it that you've had no, you
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  know, incidents? And I'm like, k. Well, first of all,
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  well, that's the Lord. But second of all is because I'm not
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  trying to adjust to their presence according to what their file has told
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  me. Because if someone were to open up our file, if someone were to
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  look up all the things I've said, all the things I've done out of my
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  humanity, you'd probably think the same thing. You know? I'm not saying I've
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  attacked anybody, but what I'm saying is we all have a file on us that
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  the lord knows about. And so if we were to really consider that for a
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  moment, thank god that he doesn't look at us cynically. One of the things
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  I I I think the church the church needs to be
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  willing to start taking the same risks that we were asked in the book of
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  Acts. When you read the book of Acts, when you see the original building of
• 16:46
  the church, it was a risk. The Jews and the
• 16:49
  Gentiles coming together under the common thread of
• 16:54
  we saw Jesus. Some of us walked with Jesus.
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  We saw the resurrection. That commonality
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  of not only seeing him come to the people
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  of Israel, but walk among the Gentiles and then hang on a
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  cross and then be resurrected, that was their commonality.
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  That is so true because so often we can get the the real twenty
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  twenty hindsight version of flanograph Jesus, and it just kinda plays
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  out. We know how the story goes. But in the moment,
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  the cynicism that people would I'm like, say what?
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  You know, like, are you really for real putting your name to this claim? Are
• 17:32
  you really gonna proclaim these things? And yet if
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  we're serving the same Jesus and Jesus is still active, god is still active
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  in the everyday, he hasn't left the building. Well,
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  that could be argued. How are we putting
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  ourselves out there in those ways when Jesus in the flesh
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  is not here? How are we manifesting those things in
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  our communities, in our churches? Are we willing to dare
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  and face the cynicism and do it anyway? Because I think it
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  has to come from a hope way beyond what our our
• 18:05
  culture can provide and then the safety net because there is no
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  safety net in culture. No. No. Each man for their
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  own. It's it's it's dog eat dog in some ways with cynicism,
• 18:17
  but there's a hope. I I I a % agree with you. I when I
• 18:20
  look at scripture, I'm like, oh, there was a cynic among the 12. His
• 18:24
  name was Thomas. There was a cynic among the 12. His
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  name was Thomas. Dare I say, you could even go far saying
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  Peter walked in a measure of cynicism. Do I
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  actually believe you are who you say you are? And do I
• 18:39
  actually believe you're going to do what you said you're going to do?
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  Because after let's take Peter for for example. They've had
• 18:46
  the last supper. Jesus has explained to them what is going to happen.
• 18:50
  Peter says, surely not. It's like, no. This
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  needs to happen. Okay. Garden Of Gethsemane happens
• 18:57
  again. Peter is still in posture of trying to protect Jesus,
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  and Jesus has to correct him. Like, no. This needs to happen,
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  which means that there was a measure of cynicism and doubt because for
• 19:08
  the disciples and this era of the gospel,
• 19:12
  they had seen different messiahs come. They had seen different people
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  come and say, I'm the savior of the world. And they had been, you
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  know, put in prison for it. They'd been silenced, not just by the Romans, but
• 19:23
  by their own people. And then you move on to Thomas. Thomas
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  was a cynic right until the resurrection, but Jesus
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  met him at his cynicism. He met him and said, put
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  your finger where the holes in my hands are. I'll meet your
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  cynicism with my mercy. And I think the church needs to do that as
• 19:42
  well. There are so many people that walk into our churches every single
• 19:46
  day. Take the deconstruction movement. I know that's a buzzword.
• 19:50
  But it comes from a place of, is god really who he says he is?
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  And the reason they have a hard time seeing that is because our churches don't
• 19:57
  look like who he called us to be. And it's costly. I I
• 20:00
  think we'd be remiss to say, okay. We should address cynicism. We
• 20:04
  should look at the root cause. We should be vulnerable and allow us to
• 20:08
  see the in the other person. That is all good. But let's
• 20:11
  also realize this isn't just a a feel good. We should stop doing
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  that. Like, I should stop eating that extra brownie that's on the
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  counter. There's actual damage
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  we might have the privilege not to see. Mhmm. But when it comes to
• 20:27
  vulnerable people that are wounded, that are very vulnerable, not by
• 20:30
  their choice, but just out of their their position, whether that's way high on a
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  pedestal and they're exposed or way low and
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  hidden in plain sight. Yeah. Those vulnerable people,
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  there's a cost to our cynicism Yeah. That when we're in the
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  the cheap seats with cynicism, there's a a cost
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  that cost them compassion and
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  remediated help interventions. It cost our
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  society all kinds of things. I don't know. Like, where do
• 21:00
  you see the cost of it? Maybe even working with your youth,
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  you saw the cost of cynicism when the church and
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  other people had a hands off approach. Yeah. I
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  mean, I'm the type of person that still sees and still
• 21:15
  believes god is doing miracles. And with
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  us walking in this and I really say it. Like I said, cynicism,
• 21:23
  if you really break it down as a lack of faith in in
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  God and and his word to be real, we
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  wonder why we don't see the miraculous in the same capacity. Yeah. I think
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  it's because we're not looking for it. Mhmm. We're actually not looking for
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  it in the day to day. If
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  me waking up today in and of itself, and this is
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  not to minimize the miracles as people say, but me
• 21:49
  just waking up today is a miracle. Why? Because someone as
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  healthy as me didn't. Mhmm. So the miracle
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  of me resting my head at night, my body going into this
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  REM state and operating by itself with
• 22:04
  unbeknownst to me, without my house burning down, without something hap some
• 22:07
  tragic that is a miracle in and of itself. Why? Because that
• 22:11
  happened to somebody else. I just got off a plane. Just the other
• 22:15
  day, someone else didn't. There's been planes crashing for the last
• 22:18
  two months. And for me to get on a plane and land,
• 22:22
  come home and not get in a car accident, it's a miracle in itself
• 22:26
  that there's clearly things being put in place,
• 22:30
  and the Lord is just the grace of the Lord is allowing me to see
• 22:33
  another day. And I find, like, we are
• 22:36
  missing out on the the beautiful, beautiful walk that
• 22:40
  we can have with the Lord because we're afraid to we're
• 22:44
  actually afraid to be let down. Mhmm. But it's
• 22:48
  because we don't take him at his word. This has kinda been a
• 22:52
  phrasing that has been, going through our church lately. Like,
• 22:55
  what would happen if you took God at his word, right, according to
• 22:59
  his word? What would the church look like if we actually believe
• 23:03
  he is the way maker, miracle worker, you know,
• 23:07
  all the songs that we love to sing, all the things that song. Did you
• 23:10
  know that, Troy? I didn't know that. My husband, and he sings that to
• 23:14
  me when I I do a lot of work, never stop never stop working.
• 23:19
  Slightly out of context, but you're speaking to my soul.
• 23:23
  But, you know, I I I find we're actually missing out
• 23:27
  Yeah. On seeing seeing a miracle in what can
• 23:31
  be the mundane. And I find that when a person starts
• 23:34
  appreciating the miracle in the mundane, our day to day stops
• 23:38
  feeling like such a trudge. Yeah. It feels like an opportunity for
• 23:42
  something special to happen at any moment.
• 23:47
  And the miracle that we see in front of us with the person in front
• 23:51
  of us of who they are, not necessarily their whole resume and
• 23:55
  the things they have or have not done. I I was talking
• 23:58
  with indigenous leader in government, this
• 24:02
  several years ago, and we were talking about, can we work with the church? There's
• 24:06
  cynicism on that side. And For sure. I deal with a lot of churches that
• 24:09
  are cynical that we can even be at the table with government, be at the
• 24:13
  table with reconciliation talks with with indigenous. There's a
• 24:16
  ton of cynicism if you're looking at that. But she turned to me, and we're
• 24:20
  having a really neat conversation over a cup of coffee. And she
• 24:23
  says, you know what, Wendy? This right here, this
• 24:27
  is reconciliation. There was this glimmer of hope that just got
• 24:31
  emerged because we saw the Amalgad Day even though we come from different world
• 24:35
  views, but we were coming together. And those are the miracles. I
• 24:38
  saw a miracle within her. I saw God in her, and we could've
• 24:42
  missed that Yeah. In the ordinary. But we
• 24:46
  have to see that as a miracle. You take this back a
• 24:49
  hundred years. You take this back sixty years for some of the people that have
• 24:53
  been living on reserves and in the indigenous community, that not
• 24:57
  only are you willing to sit with her or him, but they have that
• 25:00
  position in government. Like, that there that
• 25:04
  there even is a table. Yeah. Right? And this is
• 25:08
  one thing that I've been, you know, I've been really trying to work really, really
• 25:12
  trying to work through is, like, lord, help me not grow familiar
• 25:16
  with the things that I see every single day. I don't wanna grow familiar
• 25:20
  with my spouse. I don't wanna grow familiar with my kids calling
• 25:24
  me dad because there are so many dads who don't have a
• 25:27
  relationship with their kids, and now they're calling them by their first name. You know?
• 25:31
  Yeah. And it probably stings. And I don't wanna grow familiar
• 25:35
  with it just because it seems like the way it's supposed to be. Well
• 25:39
  Yeah. Just because that's the way it's supposed to be doesn't mean that it's going
• 25:42
  to be or that it is. Right? At any moment, the Lord could say,
• 25:46
  Troy, your time is up. Right? That's that's it. And
• 25:49
  I don't wanna be found familiar. I don't wanna be
• 25:53
  found with people being able to have a pulse on me as far as
• 25:57
  what is Troy hopeful for. I want people to know, man, Troy is
• 26:00
  always pursuing the greater in people, the greater in
• 26:04
  himself, trying to give people the the gospel, and and,
• 26:07
  honestly, just literally what our mandate is with with, with
• 26:11
  Apologetics Canada, just loving God and loving people. Really trying to get it keep the
• 26:14
  main thing the main thing. And I believe when a person
• 26:18
  has vision, when an organization has vision, that
• 26:22
  means no matter what is going on, I can actively fight
• 26:25
  cynicism when I have a foundation. Mhmm. When I look at this and I say,
• 26:29
  okay. But is this part of the vision, right, for Care Impact? Okay.
• 26:32
  This door got closed. This opportunity didn't happen. But what did we commit
• 26:36
  to doing? Okay. If I've committed to doing this and this is what
• 26:40
  the vision says, then that's actively gonna fight fight against
• 26:44
  cynicism and you know? Yeah. You're absolutely right
• 26:47
  because we've been in it ten years now, and we've seen many different
• 26:51
  versions of how we express ourselves. Our our mission statement is almost to the
• 26:55
  same words. But I can say now through trial and
• 26:59
  fire and innovation that right
• 27:02
  now, yes, there's maybe some setbacks or discouragement when you you
• 27:06
  face cynicism. It's just natural. Like, will this church
• 27:10
  really do they really mean it, or are they just infatuated with me being a
• 27:13
  risk taker? Yeah. But, honestly, I can smile at the
• 27:17
  face of cynicism now because I know there's something so much deeper.
• 27:21
  I can't wait to give you the hope for glory. There there is
• 27:24
  something. This is the hope, that we hold. It's not the only thing.
• 27:28
  We wanna work with you and in diversity, but we carry
• 27:32
  something, a mantle that god has given us that is hope
• 27:36
  filled outside of this world Yes. That I can't just
• 27:39
  wait for the right response to give me a a a different response.
• 27:43
  This is who we are. This is what we're called to. Yeah. And I
• 27:47
  feel like that we have lost often in our
• 27:51
  culture getting back to the the the Canadian culture, this is a broad statement because
• 27:54
  we we're so many different people and For sure. For sure. Perspectives.
• 27:58
  However, have we lost particular in the Canadian church,
• 28:02
  we lost our sense of wonder, our sense of mystery, or
• 28:06
  and apologetics often has had a a bad rap because we're like, we need to,
• 28:09
  like, put Jesus in a box. We need to know exactly our doctrinal statements rather
• 28:13
  than wondering. This generation, they need to ask those questions. They
• 28:17
  need to wonder. And I feel like an
• 28:20
  antidote to cynicism is wondering and
• 28:24
  leaning into the mysteries of God that, oh, there's so much more.
• 28:28
  I I believe it's either Ephesians four or Ephesians five. It's funny because I actually
• 28:31
  just preached a sermon on this. Ephesians five, it talks about
• 28:35
  one of the towards the end of the passage, it says, and pursue the
• 28:39
  the things that please God. And it's this converse like, you're seeing
• 28:42
  this whole interaction that Paul is talking about in living life set
• 28:46
  apart, living life in holiness. It says, and actually
• 28:50
  seek after what pleases God. Well, seeking
• 28:53
  requires curiosity. Mhmm. Right? And so exactly what
• 28:57
  you're saying, if we are no longer curious for the things of
• 29:01
  God and this is not a universalist statement of saying looking for God
• 29:04
  everywhere. No. I'm not saying I'm looking for God in a rock or in a
• 29:07
  speaker. No. But according to his word and his nature,
• 29:11
  I should be able to see God moving. And nature cries
• 29:15
  out. Right? Absolutely. Absolutely. Right? If
• 29:19
  I'm curious for God, that means I can walk into a government
• 29:22
  building, and I could say, god, I pray that you open a
• 29:26
  door here so that we can fulfill the
• 29:30
  great commission, so that we can fulfill loving people as you would
• 29:33
  as you have called us to. So that doesn't necessarily mean that I'm gonna get
• 29:37
  to go and hold a worship service at parliament in the, you know, in the
• 29:40
  parliament offices. That doesn't mean that. But what it does mean
• 29:44
  is that maybe the person that I interact with is actually gonna see
• 29:48
  that how I practically want to present the
• 29:52
  gospel is by helping kids in the system.
• 29:55
  Practically pursuing the gospel is me trying to
• 29:59
  pour into the community and serve people, opening soup kitchens,
• 30:03
  doing whatever it takes to, you know, as it as it and take care of
• 30:06
  the widow, take care of the orphan. That's all in the Bible. So I don't
• 30:10
  need to actually plaster that verse everywhere. I actually get to live it out,
• 30:14
  and I get to pursue that. But I have to be looking for
• 30:17
  places, spaces, and people where god has
• 30:21
  made room for me and where god has made room ultimately for himself
• 30:25
  because we just so happen to be to get to be the vessels and the
• 30:28
  carriers, but it starts with curiosity. Yeah. And that
• 30:32
  right there is the cynicism extinguisher to
• 30:35
  any conversation that could be shut down. How often in government
• 30:39
  and in other, cross sections of society that
• 30:43
  we interact with and within churches and denominations, we
• 30:47
  shut down the conversation of curiosity because we're like,
• 30:51
  this isn't. And then they there there's this, like, it's a it's a
• 30:54
  hope killer. Yes. A vision, dyer,
• 30:59
  and and it really stifles community. Yeah. I mean, the
• 31:03
  word says my people perish for lack of vision. Yeah. Right? We we've
• 31:06
  allowed, actually and I was just thinking about this the other day.
• 31:10
  How does that saying go? Curiosity killed the cat. I grew up in the
• 31:14
  Prairies. Curiosity actually fed the cat.
• 31:18
  Like, cure that cat like, I go to my my in law's farm.
• 31:21
  These cats are getting in the barn. They're looking all over the place. They're sneaking
• 31:24
  in the place. Why? Because there's a hunger, and they're actually trying to find
• 31:28
  food. So curiosity is actually gonna feed the cat.
• 31:32
  Right? It's gonna feed the cat, and then you have the amount of stories of
• 31:35
  people that have found a stray cat, and they've taken them into a
• 31:38
  home. Like, hey. I found this stray cat. Now I'm gonna give him a home.
• 31:42
  Now I'm gonna give him bedding. Now I'm gonna give him food. And I know
• 31:44
  this is kind of, like, a fun metaphor, but it's also
• 31:48
  individuals. How many people have walked into our church is purely out
• 31:51
  of curiosity. We've had people come to our church just because they heard the
• 31:55
  music. And in that curiosity, they walked in, and they found
• 31:59
  people that looked like them. They found a community that looked
• 32:02
  vibrant. They found a community that see seemed very loving and very
• 32:06
  welcoming. Next thing you know, that person now serving in our community
• 32:10
  has given their life to the lord and is not turning back.
• 32:13
  Curiosity fed them. Yeah. I love that. And
• 32:17
  that's actually one of our taglines or our tagline, Johan.
• 32:21
  Let's get curious. Yeah. Or stay curious. Right? Stay
• 32:24
  curious. So, I mean, we can probably end each podcast with saying,
• 32:28
  don't be cynical, and they're kinda synonymous, aren't they? Yeah.
• 32:31
  Right. And what we're really talking about is lack of connection
• 32:35
  too. Yes. So when you know an individual and that's why we think stories are
• 32:39
  so important because when you Crucial. Heard someone's story, when you've got to know them
• 32:43
  a little bit better, it's hard to be cynical about it because
• 32:47
  you you've heard their experience. It's hard to be cynical from an experience.
• 32:51
  Yeah. That's right. That's right. The the thing I I would add with
• 32:54
  experience is even with that experience is just the
• 32:58
  the door opening. Right? It sometimes we also
• 33:01
  stop at experience. Sometimes you'll find this in in the,
• 33:05
  you know, you not just the apologetics world, but then, like, the the Christian
• 33:09
  world at large where this is your experience,
• 33:12
  but this is my intellect. Well, god didn't ask you to throw away
• 33:16
  experience, but he also didn't ask you to throw away intellect. Right? He challenged
• 33:20
  he challenged both the the like, take the Pharisees, for example.
• 33:24
  He challenged their intellect with the living experience right
• 33:28
  in front of them. Right? Today, this has been fulfilled in your
• 33:31
  hearing. Yes. So you're hearing me release this word, this
• 33:35
  gospel, this message as he was I believe he was quoting,
• 33:39
  the prophet Isaiah at the time. He was reading that scroll. Today, this has been
• 33:42
  fulfilled in your hearing. And they're like, wait. What what does he
• 33:46
  mean? Right? You have the intellect. I'm trying to give you an
• 33:50
  experience with me. And then as far as the disciples, they got
• 33:54
  an experience with him. Paul had an experience, and
• 33:57
  then he sent them to get educated. There was an equipping that came.
• 34:01
  That's why he gave the Holy Spirit so that we could be equipped from
• 34:05
  the experience. And so they walk hand in hand. Oh, I
• 34:09
  you're you're speaking my my love language here right now because they
• 34:13
  do need to come together even though even in Christian ministry and church,
• 34:17
  yes, we love God, but we don't have to leave our our brains at the
• 34:20
  door. We also don't wanna be brains on a stick. Could they not speak to
• 34:23
  each other? Yes. Because I feel like there's such an enriching,
• 34:27
  amount of conversation that can happen. And
• 34:31
  the amount of times where spiritual bypassing because of just
• 34:35
  experience, happens because we just talk around it,
• 34:39
  and rather than reasoning and looking at objective
• 34:42
  truth. And then on the other hand, we have
• 34:46
  just the academics and the the the reasoning of it, and
• 34:50
  we haven't brought it into the everyday. Imagine
• 34:53
  if we could put those things together. And that's what I see you doing at
• 34:57
  AP and on your podcast. I'm I'm I'm a a big fan of of your
• 35:01
  episodes, and you're able to to merge those things together
• 35:05
  quite intentionally, I imagine. Yeah. And and that's one of the things
• 35:09
  I love about our team. Right? We have a super diverse team
• 35:12
  with varying levels of biblical education, but
• 35:16
  also experience. Right? I come from the the arts
• 35:20
  world, and and I would never go like, none of us ultimately,
• 35:24
  none of us would really go and say, hey. I'm an apologist. You
• 35:27
  know? They can tell us that, hey. You guys are apologist and this sort of
• 35:30
  thing. It's not us trying to deny what we do or the field that we're
• 35:33
  in. It's just that based on what we are passionate
• 35:37
  about, we fall into said camp. But as far
• 35:41
  as for me, I see apologetics through the art world in a
• 35:44
  way that, say, Wes doesn't. But Wes sees it through biblical
• 35:48
  scholarship in a way that I don't. And so when we go and have a
• 35:52
  conversation about art in the gospel, we come together
• 35:56
  like this. Right? We we're able to have a conversation based off of
• 35:59
  experience and education, and we're constantly learning from
• 36:03
  each other. And, like, I get I tell people all the time,
• 36:07
  sometimes on the podcast when I'm hosting and you hear me go
• 36:11
  silent, it's not because I don't have anything to say. It's because I get
• 36:14
  the unique opportunity to sit under someone who's more
• 36:18
  educated about a specific topic. Where I may have experience,
• 36:22
  I never would have had the framework. I never would have had the
• 36:26
  the language per se, nor would I may have had the historical background
• 36:30
  of where my presuppositions might have come from. My ideologies
• 36:34
  might have come from in the way I'm interpreting scripture. And so when I have
• 36:37
  an Andy or Wes or Steve talking about transhumanism and all
• 36:41
  this sort of stuff, I'm like, oh, I didn't know that that's what that I
• 36:44
  didn't know that's what we would call that. But thank
• 36:47
  you. Now I can properly exist in this space a little bit more.
• 36:51
  Like, I don't wanna necessarily say comfortably because that's not the term I'm looking for.
• 36:55
  Yeah. But I can exist in this space with a better grounding
• 36:59
  for what not just what I believe, but what they believe. Yeah. And
• 37:03
  the cheap seats in that hosting situation would be to be
• 37:06
  cynical Yes. About what they have. Is it really does it line up with
• 37:10
  my experience rather than being curious and saying, how can I learn from
• 37:13
  them what they're bringing to this conversation and that
• 37:17
  you validly have something to offer as well into the
• 37:21
  conversation, but it's that curiosity? I know we have to to end
• 37:24
  this conversation, unfortunately. We'd love to have you back sometime.
• 37:28
  Absolutely. But I I would love to, just ask you, what is
• 37:32
  a challenge that you might wanna give our listeners on the topic of
• 37:35
  cynicism and what we've been talking about? Is there a challenge that we can put
• 37:39
  out there for our listeners to consider? I don't
• 37:43
  wanna diminish it to just don't be a cynic. Right.
• 37:46
  Because it's like, okay. Well, where do where do I start? I
• 37:50
  would say, have have a conversation with someone
• 37:54
  without inserting your own opinion first.
• 37:57
  Mhmm. Ask a question and then and
• 38:01
  actually just ask it. Like, hey. Why do you like
• 38:05
  red? This is a prime example. Why do you like red? Don't follow-up with,
• 38:08
  because I see that you wear red a lot, and I heard that when people
• 38:12
  wear red, x y z happens or x y z is what they believe.
• 38:17
  Yeah. You've now inserted your own cynicism into the conversation. Yeah.
• 38:20
  Now this person's response is not just genuinely telling you why they
• 38:24
  like red. They feel like now they have to defend themselves and
• 38:28
  diffuse your Right. Cynicism. We we've
• 38:31
  got to stop projecting our cynicism on people and forcing people to have
• 38:35
  to fight off that in order to have a conversation. So I would say, have
• 38:39
  a conversation with someone. And I know people can already think of someone
• 38:43
  you may disagree with or someone whose point of view you're
• 38:46
  like, I don't know how I feel about it. But ask them the question,
• 38:50
  hey. Why do you believe stay away from politics because it's a
• 38:54
  little fresh right now. It is a little fresh. As a as a starter,
• 38:58
  exercise. Yeah. But just genuinely ask them
• 39:02
  a question that you you wanna know the answer to and
• 39:06
  just listen. And ask I would say be
• 39:09
  an active listener in it, but do not insert
• 39:14
  your opinion into it unless they ask you for your opinion.
• 39:18
  Because I guarantee you're gonna learn you're gonna learn two things. You're gonna
• 39:22
  learn one, depending on how the conversation goes, obviously. But you could
• 39:26
  learn, one, what they believe about that thing. Two, how they
• 39:29
  came to believe about that thing. And then the beautiful bonus is
• 39:33
  now that they've asked they've answered your question, them asking you, how do you feel
• 39:37
  about how I see that thing? Because now you've what you've
• 39:41
  done is you've organically created a relationship. And like we said,
• 39:45
  relationship Johan, you were saying this relationship actually
• 39:48
  helps diffuse, cynicism. Because now
• 39:52
  it's like that phrase, now I got skin in the game. Now I've actually released
• 39:56
  a part of my heart to you. And if you're actually about to just go
• 39:59
  stomp on that, that says more about you than it does about them. And that'll
• 40:02
  show you a lot about who you are. That's amazing. Hey. Before we end this
• 40:06
  episode, you wanna tell our audience where they can find you, where they can
• 40:10
  connect with some of your content online? Yeah.
• 40:13
  So me, specifically, you can follow me.
• 40:17
  Kinda my my more ministerial journey is through prairie boy
• 40:21
  prairie boy troy just on Instagram. If you wanna follow the music,
• 40:24
  it's just scribe underscore music or scribe music on
• 40:28
  any platform. For my organization, Apologetics Canada,
• 40:32
  our Instagram tag is just Apologetics Canada.
• 40:36
  Nowadays, it we we feel like we're the prize pony, so it's not hard
• 40:39
  to find us. So you can just type in Apologetics Canada. We
• 40:43
  have a host of resources on there as well as, like, the the AC
• 40:47
  podcast. We put out weekly episodes, and, that
• 40:50
  that's really the the simplest way. Awesome. I'll make sure I have all those links
• 40:54
  in the show notes for our listeners if you wanna it.
• 40:57
  Care lingo. Alright. We are in our Care lingo segment.
• 41:02
  I think it it's appropriate to use the term apologetics
• 41:06
  today. Hey, Wendy? Oh, that sounds like the perfect word. Oh, we could have
• 41:09
  fun with this. K. Well, I'm supposed to give the wrong definition for this.
• 41:13
  So if I was someone first hearing this word, this is kind of what
• 41:17
  came to my mind. If I heard someone say they're into
• 41:20
  apologetics, I would think that they're in some sort of weird
• 41:24
  exercising class that mixes exercising
• 41:27
  and apologies, you know, kind of like a quasi Canadian
• 41:31
  exercise thing that we do in the church maybe
• 41:35
  where we get to repent while exercising. We apologize for
• 41:39
  things for our misdeeds and our sins. But, you know, mixing
• 41:42
  exercising and apologies together. Yeah. I see. I
• 41:46
  was gonna piggyback off of that similar vein. I was thinking
• 41:50
  of I know it's a course. It's a it's an academic thing. So I was
• 41:54
  thinking of something that I would register for in Canada, of course,
• 41:57
  to learn how to apologize well. And we we do like
• 42:01
  to say sorry, but maybe to expand our vocabulary, take an
• 42:05
  apologetics course. You'll get really good at saying sorry as a
• 42:08
  Canadian. And you're gonna get a good workout, apparently. So And a good workout.
• 42:13
  So Troy, you're the expert here. What does apologetics
• 42:17
  actually mean? Okay. So apologetics comes from the Greek
• 42:21
  word apologia, which means to defend or
• 42:24
  in defense of. And where we kinda get
• 42:28
  the apologist creed is out of first Peter three fifteen where
• 42:32
  it says, always be ready to give an answer to anyone who may ask you
• 42:35
  the reason for the hope that is within you. And this is the caveat,
• 42:40
  do so with gentleness and respect. So apologetics
• 42:43
  and and it's funny because I thought, honestly, the same thing when I first came
• 42:46
  into this world. I was like, okay. What am I what am I saying sorry
• 42:50
  for? The church is sorry for x y z or whatever. But
• 42:54
  yeah. So that's that's apologetics. And one of the cool things
• 42:57
  about it is that it's not just one topic. I thought that
• 43:01
  apologetics was just a bunch of guys in blazers and brown loafers
• 43:05
  arguing over It used to be. It used to it used to be. When I
• 43:08
  was in seminary, it used to be. So that's that's what I thought it
• 43:12
  was, and then I showed up and kinda blew that all apart. Then you put
• 43:16
  it into rap form. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And so apologetics
• 43:20
  covers a wide range of topics and but it's really
• 43:23
  defending the various aspects of the Christian belief and
• 43:27
  faith according to scripture, obviously. And how appropriate because
• 43:31
  we were just talking about the hope and having a reason for hope, apologetics.
• 43:35
  You would hardly see it in the same sentence as cynicism, but
• 43:39
  it's it's giving reason to the hope that we have. Yeah. And
• 43:43
  so I encourage all our listeners to check out, Apologetics
• 43:46
  Canada. And thank you so much, Troy. Yep. Thank you, guys.
• 43:51
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• 44:13
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