Latest / We Regret Nothing / 1930s Fashion Part 1
Transcript
- Sean: Welcome back to We Regret Nothing. I'm your host Sean, and today we're stepping away from the screen and radio dial to explore another way the 1930s expressed itself, through fashion. Over the course of this season, Michelle, Andrea, and I have been building a cultural time capsule of the 30s, selecting the films, books, songs, and radio shows that best capture the spirit of the 1930s. Today, we begin the final category, fashion. clothing in the 30s tells a fascinating story. After the bold experimentation of the 20s that we discussed, ⁓ this brought a shift toward elegance, practicality, and resilience. Even in the middle of the Great Depression, style continued to evolve, shaping identity, status, and everyday life. To help guide us through the world of 1930s fashion, we're joined today by our special guest, Lori, who brings a deeper historical perspective to the trends. In-person participant 1: tells a fascinating story. After the bold experimentation of the 20s that we discussed, this brought a shift toward elegance, practicality, and resilience. Even in the middle of the Great Depression, style continued to evolve, shaping identity, status, and everyday life. To help guide us through the world of 1930s fashion, we're joined today by our special guest, Lori, who brings a deeper historical perspective to the trends, silhouettes, and cultural meaning Sean: silhouettes and cultural meaning behind the clothing of this era. So in this episode, we're going to introduce the first 10 items from our list of the top 20 fashion elements of the 30s. And then over the next two episodes, we'll debate them, narrow them down to a top 10 and eventually decide which five belong in the capsule to represent the look of this decade. So let's open the wardrobe and start with the first 10 pieces of fashion that helped define this era. Welcome Michelle. Hello, Andrea. In-person participant 1: behind the clothing of this era. So in this episode, we're going to introduce the first 10 items from our list of the top 20 fashion elements of the 30s. And then over the next two episodes, we'll debate them, narrow them down to a top 10, and eventually decide which five belong in a capsule to represent the look of this decade. So let's open the wardrobe and start with the first 10 pieces of fashion that helped define this era. Welcome, Michelle. Hello. Hello, Andrea. Yep. Sean: Welcome, Lori, and thank you so much for joining us. to get started, what are your thoughts overall about fashion in the 1930s? In-person participant 1: Welcome Lori and thank you so much for joining us. Hi, thanks for having me. So to get started, what are your thoughts overall about fashion in the 1930s? My thoughts overall is it was very influenced by film. ⁓ they, what I was researching about it is that it was going more feminine look, but it still had a practicality about it because it was still, like you said, it was, you know, in the end of the depression. And so there were more ladies going in the workforce. So they really had to think about, Hey, I still want to look feminine, but I have to be practical. have to, a lot of ladies were still making their own clothes. And it just kind of evolved into a more feminine style from the more style of the 20s. Sean: their own clothes and so it just kind of evolved into a more feminine style from the more boyish style of the 20s. Andrea, anything to add to that or other thoughts? I fucking love 1930s fashion. In-person participant 1: Andrea, anything to add to that or other thoughts? fucking love 1930s fashion. When you sent this list, I was like, I own that, I own that, I own that, I own that. And Michelle will tell you, because it would often be, I'd be like, we're going to go to lunch. And she'd be like, what the fuck are you wearing? Not in a bad way, but I wasn't aware we were. I'm wearing this. So 1930s fashion, I think, is such a twist to use something that said so much though, but it's like 1920s walked so 1930s could run. Like this, it's so fantastic. I'm going to make a leap here that there was a resurgence of this fashion in the 80s and 90s. Yes. are you a time traveler? ⁓ both. Okay. Got it. But don't ask me about my business. Okay. Michelle, any, any other thoughts? No. Okay. So I, I obviously fashion is not, my, ⁓ topic. I'm wearing sweatpants right now, but, ⁓ Sean: It's so fantastic. I'm going to make a leap here that there was a resurgence of this fashion in the 80s and 90s. Or are you a time traveler? Both. OK, got it. But don't ask me about my business. Michelle, any other thoughts? No. OK. So obviously fashion is not ⁓ my topic. I'm wearing sweatpants right now. But ⁓ my kind of impression of the 30s, a little bit like what In-person participant 1: ⁓ My kind of impression of the 30s a little bit like what you said, but I think the 30s gets overlooked a lot because the 20s seemed to be like really memorable. was a lot of we talked about this all the the transformation for women all the independent the 20s just seemed like the roaring 20s following World War one. There was this fashion thing and then in the 40s the war a lot of the fashion which we'll talk about in a further episode. Sean: You said, but I think the thirties gets overlooked a lot because the the 20s seemed to be like really memorable. There was a lot of we talked about this, all the the transformation for women, all the independent the 20s just seemed like the roaring 20s following World War One. There was this fashion thing. And then in the 40s, the war, a lot of the fashion, which we'll talk about in a in further episodes were defined. But the thirties, I feel like kind of get overlooked a lot as far as fashion go. So I'm excited to talk about all of this with you. So let's just let's get right into it. Number one, ⁓ bias cut dresses. But really we're talking about bias cut ⁓ in fashion, right? So I think we'll get into that. But ⁓ Lori, how do you feel about a bias cut gown? In-person participant 1: We're defined but the 30s I feel like kind of get overlooked a lot as far as fashion goes So I'm excited to talk about all of this with you. So let's just let's get right into it number one ⁓ Bias cut dresses, but really we're talking about bias cut as a in fashion, right? So I think we'll get into that but ⁓ Lori yes, how do you feel about a bias cut gown? Beautiful. I mean because it's meant to drape the hug the body. So when a lot of the 30s, a lot of the look was a low back and so and then kind of you know off the shoulder just a little bit. So it was meant to really give a glamorous look. So the bias cut really lended itself well to a lot of different fabrics. Okay and Andrea? I just what Lori said I love a bias cut. ⁓ Sean: well to Okay, and Andrea? I just, what Laurie said, I love a bias cut. I have good on you, Madeline, because it was Madeline Vionnet. I love this. I remember when my mom used to make me dresses that she was always worried about the bias cut. didn't matter not to me. I was like, just make sure I look good, Rose. In-person participant 1: I have good on you, Madeline, because it was Madeline Vionnet. I love this. remember when my mom used to make me dresses that she was always worried about the bias cut. It didn't matter not to me. I was like, just make sure I look good, bros. ⁓ I love the hug, the flow, the very... To me it seems very sensual, back in my really small days I wanted my wedding dress to be just the high, like this cross and then bias through the hips and then the back just nothing, like a little bow right above where it would be a peekaboo ⁓ for you or whoever I married, I don't know, but... But yeah All ⁓ right, so clearly I'm not a girly girl, but this is a dress I always wish I could wear and I don't want to it Yeah, we're not gonna do that We can talk off off air we'll take this we'll take this off screen if you will Sean: But yeah, Michelle In-person participant 1: No, just I love I love like particularly like the draping in the back where it would often look like a pleat or come down and just like right. Yep. Right above the moneymaker. Yes. It's like looks great. Love it. Sean: Yeah, so the bias cut part of it, I think you all kind of explained it, but I had no idea what it was. ⁓ But this curvaceous silhouette this gown became known for, the idea is instead of being cut following the straight line of the weave, the flowing fabrics of these dresses were literally cut on the grain. In-person participant 1: Yeah, so the... Sean: And with that pattern positioned at a 45 degree angle on woven fabric, that's what gave this the look that you all were describing it. And again, became known as bias cut. I don't know why it's called that. Maybe one of you do. In-person participant 1: I don't know why it's called that maybe one of you do because you're cutting it on the bias What is the bias that's against the grain against the weave? This is a bias cut, know when you cut a steak ⁓ Against the grain. Yeah, it's a bias cut when you see Scallions on something on an ad in Asian restaurant and they they're kind of diamondy pointy. That's a bias cut. Okay ⁓ Okay, we can stop I learned something today ⁓ Sean: What is the bias? That's against the grain, against the weave. Never heard it before. is a bias cut. You know when you cut a steak against the grain? Yeah. That's a bias cut. When you see scallions on something at an Asian restaurant and they're kind of diamondy pointy, that's a bias cut. Okay. I learned. Okay, we can stop. I learned something today, so we're good. Yay, 45 degree angle. In-person participant 1: ⁓ Sean. Why'd sound like Dana? Okay, there's Dana. It's a 45 degree angle, Laurie, what were you saying? No, she's right. It's just a fancy name. Okay. Sean: Why do you sound like Dana? Okay, there's Dana. It's a 45 degree angle shot. Lori, what were you saying? No, she writes just a fancy name. Okay. Well, I'm not a fancy guy, so let's keep it. Let's bring it down to Shawn level. Okay, so number two, wide leg trousers specifically for women. Andrea. Yes. In-person participant 1: I'm not a fancy guy, so let's keep it, let's bring it down to Sean Lowe. Okay, so number two, wide-leg trousers specifically for women. ⁓ Andrea. Yes! You know how I... What do you have written? Yes, yes, yes. I love wide-leg trousers. They are, which sadly, tried on a pair this week and they just didn't. Those palazzo pants didn't work. ⁓ you just saw it. Cause that led to a whole breakdown and me rocking back and forth in the corner. Exactly. ⁓ I love that they originally, they're like beach pajamas. Which is crazy. Beachwear, lounging, gardening, as we all know we've all resorted together so we do all have something like this. ⁓ Cotton, linen, silk, I mean this is great. At one point, and I want to get back to this, ⁓ The widest opening on the bottom was 24 inches. Girl, please. And I, with my former, with those ⁓ mermaid stripper shoes that I used to have, that would look so cute. It would. Love them. Love them. Okay, Michelle. ⁓ hell yes. As a big thad girly, I'm fucking here for it. And you also all know about... So these had a sad resurgence. Sean: resorted together so we do all have like something like this cotton linen silk i mean this is great at one point and i want to get back to this ⁓ the widest opening on the bottom was 24 inches ⁓ please and i with my former with those ⁓ mermaid stripper shoes that i used to have that would look so cute it would love them love them okay michelle ⁓ In-person participant 1: in the ⁓ Sean: in the ⁓ In-person participant 1: Those are always made me feel like a golfer. Do you like 30s? I yeah, I like them. Lori? Hello? Wearing them? Hell yeah. Wearing them right now. My leg. Super comfy. god, can fit right in there with you girls. Right? And a lot of them had the sailor. Yes. there, which was popular in the 30s, but I'm not about that look, but I eat there. I, what, they're. Sean: Those always make me feel like a golfer. I do like them. I like them. Laureen? Wearing them? Yeah, yeah. Wearing them right now. In-person participant 1: The whole thing for the 30s was accentuating the waistline, right? And so this was a little bit more forgiving when you had the wide leg. And they and ladies wore them for everything whether they dress a satin or they were wearing Denim or wool up to you know work outside and to go back to like so for that part of it like the where they were like ⁓ you have your kitchen You know pajamas and your gardening. Yeah, also like when you dress this up like Katherine Hepburn, right? ⁓ tiny waist Wide leg right. I just looks great. It looks crazy. Mm-hmm Really with a belt. Yeah Yeah. Number three so double-breasted suit jacket, but really we can just talk about you know in general suits for men in the 30s Michelle Big fan. I love a double-breasted suit on a man. It looks amazing. I will also add I love it on a woman Have you seen Zendaya in a double-breasted suit? No shirt on underneath you I do love that look No, I just like it and then back again is our you know our friend the Duke of Windsor who was like the fat Sean: And to go back to like so for that part of it like the where they were like, ⁓ you have your kitchen, you know, pajamas. you're gardening. Yeah, also like when you dress this up like Katherine Hepburn, right? ⁓ tiny waist, wide leg. Right. It just looks great. It looks classy. Really with a belt. Number three. So double-breasted suit jacket, but really we can just talk about, you know, in general suits for men in the 30s. Michelle. I'm big fan. I love a double-breasted suit on a man. It looks amazing. I will also add, I love it on a woman. In-person participant 1: icon apparently he like influenced all of like a lot not all but a lot of men's fashion in those decades ⁓ yeah I just I'm big big fan I do I It's interesting to me that they were more as a sporting jacket rather than what we think about when we think of like the 90s ⁓ power suit where that came back. Right. So it's interesting to me that when these came out, they were more a sporting jacket rather than a formal jacket. Sean: It's interesting to me that they were more as a sporting jacket rather than what we think about when we think of like the 90s power suit where that came back. Right. So it's interesting to me that when these came out, they were more a sporting jacket rather than a formal jacket. Well, I had read that it was originated from the navel jacket. In-person participant 1: that it was ⁓ originated from the navel jacket. So it was originally designed to keep warm, but it evolved into something a little bit more casual and then took a whole nother turn. Yeah. Where you put a pinstripe on it and it's dressy, you know? Yeah. Andrew, anything else? I. Sean: So it was originally designed to keep warm, but it evolved into something a little bit more casual and then took a whole nother turn. Yeah. You put a pinstripe on it and it's dressy. Yeah. Andrew, anything else? In-person participant 1: I just have that I I loved that that's when the like plaid for spring because it was lighter herringbone for winter because it's heavier ⁓ That then the men started switching up a little bit and you would did a patterned jacket But you had to have a solid pant you did a solid patterned pant with a solid jacket like kind of but what Michelle said and I loved was Women in a double-breasted which again. This was something else that I had I had it in pink and I had it in cream at except I had tapered pants instead of the wider bottom but I absolutely love that look on a woman. Barbara Stanwyck wore it, Katharine Hepburn, Greta Garbo. It's amazing. ⁓ The nipped weight, really... It's a look. A whole vibe. And you know, we just have to say, since Michelle said Zendaya, we have to like send out our congratulations since they're now married. I mean, good on you, Tom. Like, you, good on you. You win. definitely a fashion icon. ⁓ my gosh. She so Everything wears. Sean: And you know, we just have to say, since Michelle said Zendaya, we have to like send out our congratulations since they're now married. I mean, good on you, Tom. Like, you, good on you. You win. She's definitely a fashion icon. ⁓ my God. She so Everything she wears. In-person participant 1: love, I fucking love her fashion. ⁓ I can't think of another pairing of a designer and an ingenue that's much better than Law Roach and Zendaya. He just knows how to fucking clothe her. She looks amazing. All the time. Sean: can't think of another pairing of a designer and an ennui that's much better than Law Roach and said that. He just knows how to fucking clothe her. She looks amazing. All the time. Okay. ⁓ breasted. ⁓ In-person participant 1: So. ⁓ double breasted, let me just, cause we didn't really talk about what that means. You talked about how much y'all love them and who you love wearing them. But ⁓ so it's any coat, jacket, waistcoat or actually, or a dress. I said men's fashion, but it does count on a dress. We're talking about buttons here. And so, ⁓ boy, overlapping front flaps, which has on its front two symmetrical columns of buttons. Right. Is that accurate? By contrast, a single breasted Sean: Let me just, cause we didn't really talk about what that means. You talked about how much y'all love them and who you love wearing them. But ⁓ so it's any coat, jacket, waistcoat, or actually, or a dress. said men's fashion, but it does count on a dress. We're talking about buttons here, right? And so, ⁓ boy, overlapping front flaps, which has on its front two symmetrical columns of buttons, right? Is that accurate? Yes. By contrast, a single breasted jacket has a narrow overlap and only one column of buttons. So if you can kind of imagine the difference between those two things. So when we say double breasted, that's what we're referring to is typically have one to four rows of buttons, each containing two buttons in a row or a column. mean, sorry. ⁓ And only one of the rows is functional. So like one, you don't button. all of those buttons. One seems like it's just for looks, for show. And so each fastening method on a sport coat or a jacket is used, they use number on number terminology. So the first number is the total number of front buttons. The second is the number of fastening buttons below the lapels. This was all very fascinating to me for some reason. In-person participant 1: jacket has a narrow overlap and only one column of buttons. So if you can kind of imagine the difference between those two things. So when we say double-breasted, that's what we're referring to is typically have one to four rows of buttons, each containing two buttons in a row or a column, I mean, sorry. ⁓ And only one of the rows is functional. like one, you don't button all of those buttons. One is seems like it's just for shows for show. And so each fastening method on a sport coat or a jacket is used, they use number on number terminology. So the first number is the total number of front buttons. The second is the number of fastening buttons below the lapels. This was all very fascinating to me for some reason. I don't know who thinks of these things or why, but the second number is also the number of corresponding button holes. That made sense to me. So functional buttons and how many button holes that they match. Sean: I don't know who thinks of these things or why, but so the second number is also the number of corresponding button holes. That made sense to me. So functional buttons and how many button holes that they match. So six on two, six on one are common button stances, but there's other things exist. ⁓ And I was just thinking about like different builds that people have and how this wouldn't look good on some people because of their build. So some people find six buttons overwhelm their short torsos, not judging, but ⁓ for six button configuration, ⁓ only the bottom one fastens, would be a option for, I'm not a designer, I don't know why I'm going this deep into this, but Michelle's point, the four button double breasted jacket that buttons at the lower button is often called the Kent, ⁓ after Prince George, Duke of Kent. ⁓ Yeah. In-person participant 1: I don't know. I'm not a designer. I don't know why I'm going this deep into this but ⁓ But Michelle's point the four button double breasted jacket that buttons at the lower button is often called the Kent After Prince George Duke of Kent ⁓ Yeah, that's everything I found and I was fascinated by it So Laurie, can we qualify whether we're talking about rows or columns of buttons? ⁓ like where no, I don't mean you I mean We're when you say six by two and only two of those buttons are fun Sean: That's everything I found and I was fascinated by it. ⁓ wow. When you say six by two and only two of those. In-person participant 1: functioning. Are we talking the top two or are we talking one? I think we're talking this way. Yeah, the column. The column. Yeah, I misspoke when I said row. no. It says column in my notes and I said row. But we are speaking columns. It could be a vertical row. I mean, you could call it what you want. It's a column. Sean: Yeah, I misspoke when I said row. It says column in my notes and I said row, but we are speaking columns. It's a column. Columns up and down, across. And I misspoke. In-person participant 1: Columns up and down rows across. Yes. And I just always see like Jimmy Stewart or Cary Grant like unbuttoning the top like when you go into a cup just like the yeah. Okay. Number four, ⁓ puff sleeves, puffy sleeves. ⁓ That is Lory. Well, this was again, a look that you, you accentuated the shoulders because they were trying to minimize the waist. Sean: Okay, number four, ⁓ puffed sleeves, puffy sleeves, ⁓ that is Lori. In-person participant 1: So they were very into ruffles or bows, puff sleeves. was, you know, kind of gave it a glamorous kind of look, interest to it. I mean, there's a lot, you see a lot of the 30s enjus wearing these. You know, they would come in with these floaty sleeves and it was just a sort of a therial, I think. But that's what I got from it. Yeah. Andrea? I just have the puffs emerged in the early 30s, but it was popular in both day wear and evening wear. Yes. Like you could see it and it came with like a lot of times with the shearing or the smocking and then yeah, the decorative device. Sean: That's what I got from it. Good word. Andrea? I just have that, it emerged in the early 30s, but it was popular in both day wear and evening wear. Like you could see it and it came with like a lot of times with the shearing or the smocking and then, yeah, the decorative device, but to which is what basically I'm, I'm. In-person participant 1: to which is what basically I'm mansplaining Lori like this is what Laura and saying exactly what she said. But yeah, puff sleeves were and sometimes you could get, you would have the sleeve that would puff like this, but then you could push it up and it would be poofier and yeah, still around today. definitely. Michelle. Sean: mansplaining Lori like this is what Laura and saying exactly what she said. ⁓ But yeah, puff sleeves were and sometimes you could get you would have the sleeve that would puff like this, but then you could push it up and it would be poofier. And yeah, still around today. Michelle. To what Andrew was saying was like early, early in the decade, they were lower, like the puff was lower. And then later it got higher. In-person participant 1: to what Andrew was saying was like early early in the decade they were lower like the puff was lower and then later it got higher on the shoulder. I whenever I think about this it just makes me think about like a holly hobby and I knew I knew were going say that gables and shit like that so it doesn't while it was designed and I think so kind of to Sean's point about like the 30s getting minimized like I don't think about this necessarily I'm not breaking the rules yet uh yet because It was designed to make an hourglass like to give you the illusion of the hourglass right they were up here higher puffier so that way as you looked it would slim towards the middle but this always makes me think of like little house on the prairie and shit like that which to me is not at all like it doesn't make me think about femininity and sexiness just makes me think like why did my mom put me in that dress in my kindergarten like fucking school picture what did I like Sean: Shoulder I Whenever I think about this it just makes me think about like a Holly hobby I know Gables yes shit like that so it doesn't well it was designed And I think so kind of to Sean's point about like the 30s getting minimized like I don't think about this necessarily Toe in the line to make an hourglass like to give you the illusion of the hourglass right there were up here higher In-person participant 1: Yeah, they're certainly obviously in the 70s and 80s was not great the 30s I think they did it right because you see for sure me I think Joan Crawford of these looks where they were specifically made for them, right? Taylor or they were mass producing and it didn't really give the best flattering Sean: If ⁓ we go all way back to the ⁓ 16th century during Renaissance, so women, ⁓ I don't know a farthingale is, I'm sure at least ⁓ one of the of you know. ⁓ So during the 16th century, ⁓ the farthingale hoop skirt worn under a dress is to create a wide voluminous silhouette. But to balance out the fullness of that skirt, dresses often featured puff sleeves that were tied at the shoulders and elbows, creating a rounded billowing effect, to Laurie's point. And then they went away for quite a while, and then for, I don't know, I couldn't find why, but somewhere in the 30s, puff sleeves make a significant comeback. So, adding romance and structure, it says. So, large puffs at the shoulder that narrowed to the wrist in the beginning, I think that was what Michelle said. creating an illusion of a smaller waist, stronger shoulders, ⁓ and then utilizing fabrics like satin and velvet for dresses. And there were even some sweaters. ⁓ But I don't know. I'm sure it's AI, but the computer told me the trend embraced femininity with a hint of drama. But Joan Crawford, Bette Davis. ⁓ So back to movies, right? Like film stars wear it, now everybody needs it. And also back to dramatic actresses. Those two were. In-person participant 1: I'm sure it's AI, but the computer told me the trend embraced femininity with a hint of drama. But Joan Crawford, Bette Davis. So back to movies, right? Like film stars wear it, now everybody needs it. And also back to dramatic actresses. Those two work a lot at the, there were a couple of comedy things, but they were always, and also they worked traditional beauties. I'm not saying they weren't, they were traditional beauties. ⁓ Sean: there were a couple of comedy things, but they were always, and also they weren't traditional beauties. I'm not saying they weren't, they were traditional beauties. ⁓ Puffs sometimes combined with subtle shoulder pads exaggerated the shoulders, making the waist appear smaller and creating a more feminine hourglass silhouette. I think back to Michelle again. ⁓ there were, I found some names that I still don't know what they mean, but mutton sleeves, ⁓ gathered puffs and butterfly sleeves. Mutton and lamb sleeves are your, ⁓ Michelle was saying here was where the puff went. And you said to the wrist. In-person participant 1: puffs sometimes combined with subtle shoulder pads exaggerated the shoulders making the waist appear smaller and creating a more feminine hourglass silhouette. I back to Michelle again. ⁓ there were I found some names that I still don't know what they mean but mutton sleeves, ⁓ gathered puffs and butterfly sleeves. Mutton and lamb sleeves are your what Michelle was saying here was where the puff went and you said to the wrist that is to the wrist. Because it's like a Sean: That is to the wrist. Okay, because it's like a what about a lamb butterfly sleeve Look at Andrea, okay And so all of the ones we're talking about right now just to tie it back to our first topic often made from bias cut fabrics for the drape Anytime I can tie it Feel so cool ⁓ In-person participant 1: like a leg of lamb butterfly sleeve isn't that where it floated like it was split here and then up is it okay so all of the ones we're talking about right now just to tie it back to our first topic often made from bias cut fabrics for the drape anytime I can tie it you are so cool number five Sean: Number five, ⁓ evening capes. let's just talk about capes. So Andrea. I love a dramatic cape. Shocking. ⁓ I just thought I would talk for Michelle there. I love a cape that is velvet to your ankles lined in satin or silk. am not a fan of a cape left, because that's what I would call In-person participant 1: ⁓ evening capes. let's just talk about capes. So Andrea? I love a dramatic cape. Shocking. ⁓ I just thought I would talk for Michelle there. I love a cape that is velvet to your ankles lined in satin or silk. I am not a fan of a capelet, because that's what I would call a lot of what I saw in going through evening capes were a lot of capelets. You could take it off after. It usually would reveal a strap or a strapless. It was supposed to be like, OK, here we're at dinner and I'm still very ladylike. in I've got this little capelet, I've got the bow or the little clasp and then we're going to go out dancing or somewhere a club anywhere after and then off it to a lot of prom gowns and kept that up for years but uh yeah evening cape love capelet meh I don't know wow Sean: prom gowns and kept that up for years. yeah, evening cape, love capelet. ⁓ Wow. Michelle? I like that this is a crossover trend too, They're big, dramatic, as you pointed out, capes for men, right? Take broad shoulders down to the ground, right? Often heavy materials, velvet. But for the women... In-person participant 1: Michelle? I like that this is a crossover trend too, right? They're big, dramatic, as you pointed out, capes for men, right? Big broad shoulders, down to the ground, right? Often heavy materials, velvet. But for the women, the capelet, but also sometimes they would like sew in the cape to the gown so that it matched and it would hang lower. ⁓ But I like when something will cross both gender lines. right that you can do that and I do like when I mean really and I don't know maybe you can tell us That that the Dracula that we know and love in our brains has a cape right? Yep. Did he always know why because bella legosi Put that asked for that in costuming and then made it his signature look for so the Dracula you picture with the cape and the whole thing Yeah, and the high collar is is the belly. No, see. Yep. You know universal monster Sean: Laurie? ⁓ Well, the one thing that I wrote down that I found fascinating was that it provided drama and didn't ruin the silhouette. you don't want to ruin I mean, if you go to that much trouble, right, to get a cape and a garret and the whole thing, you're going for it. And plus, a lot of people are still walking. There's still not a lot of cars, so people have to stay warm. But if you don't want to ruin the silhouette, and I'm with you about the cape lid. It depends who's wearing it, but it doesn't always flatter you like a long. In-person participant 1: Well, the one thing that I wrote down that I kind of found fascinating was that it provided drama and didn't ruin the silhouette. Which you don't want to, I mean, if you go to that much trouble, right, to get a cape and a gown and a whole thing, you're going for it. And plus a lot of people were so walking, you know, there's not still not a lot of cars. So people were, they had to stay warm. But if you don't want to the silhouette and I'm with you about the cape lid, it depends who's wearing it, but it doesn't always flatter you like a long dramatic cape. Sean: So I have two things about capes. We're not superheroes. So, no, I knew one of you was going to bring it up. No capes, but we're not superheroes. So capes are fine. But there is these two instances ⁓ that ⁓ Jean LaLandvin, ⁓ Paris Parisian haute couture. I don't even know how to say half the words I put in my notes, but she was In-person participant 1: We're not superheroes. Edna mode. Edna mode. I knew one of you was going to bring it up. I was waiting for Michelle. No capes. No capes. But we're not superheroes. So capes are fine. But there are these two instances that Jean LaLandvin Paris Parisian haute couture. I don't even know how to say half the words I put in my notes. But she was renowned for luxurious and imaginative construction of evening wear, including several Sean: renowned for luxurious and imaginative construction of evening wear, including several lavish capes. among the masterpieces she made was referred to as the Moonlighting Cape. And this cape, defined by its soft green hue, intricate embroidery, and a dramatically functional fur lined collar. So looked cool, kept them warm, right? ⁓ So the Moonlighting Cape is like the number two. The number one in this story, we don't have time for it because it was crazy, but there's this American socialite and influential interior decorator, Elsie DeWolf. She was known as Lady Mendel, but she commissioned a cape from designer Elsa Schiapparelli. And so the resulting creation was this monumental velvet and silk cape known as the Apollo of Versailles. So what Wolf wanted, well, let me. In-person participant 1: ⁓ There's this American socialite ⁓ and influential interior decorator, Elsie DeWolf. She was known as Lady Mendel, but she commissioned a cape from designer Elsa Schiaparelli. And so the result in creation was this monumental velvet and silk cape known as the Apollo of Versailles. So what Wolf wanted, Schiaparelli's design served as this homage to Wolf's view out Sean: Shea Perrelli's design served as this homage to Wolfe's view out at her ⁓ enormous house. ⁓ But there was this fountain, the broader landscape of the Park de Versailles, which these things were visible from De Wolfe's elegant home within the estate. Just imagine what that looked like, sorry. ⁓ So this cape ⁓ utilized a profusion of gold embellishment inspired by the statue of the Sun King. In-person participant 1: at her ⁓ enormous house. But there was this fountain, the broader landscape of the Park ⁓ de Versailles, which these things were visible from De Wolfe's elegant home within the estate. Just imagine what that looked like. Sorry. ⁓ So this cape ⁓ utilized a profusion of gold embellishment inspired by the statue of the Sun King. Sean: what this cape looked like. But there are pictures of it online if you care enough. If you're a crazy person like me, go look it up. Both of those capes seemed really cool sounding. Number six, like I said, and we actually had a pre-production meeting, but I said in that to you all, some of these things that I... listed as a certain thing I want to talk more broadly. is number six is Hollywood waves. But what I really want to hear about is hairstyles in the thirties. So if you want to focus on the waves part, that's fine. But hairstyles of the 1930s is Michelle. In-person participant 1: part that's fine but ⁓ hairstyles of the 1930s is Michelle. I think that this was mainly just a move to go back to a more feminine look from the androgynous kind of 20s look so women were growing their hair longer it's a you know and just in general and when the Hollywood waves are just softer flowier longer big volume Rita Hayworth. That's exactly Veronica Lake. Yeah, like the same again the influence from film right like if you I mean we still do it right you see somebody on the screen and you're like ⁓ my god I love that look and then you take you know you take a picture to your To your stylist me like can you do this? Can you do this? Just think about when Demi Moore looked great with that hair and ghost I will too. So let's get like No, but that would yeah, and it was easier for like, you know Sean: take you know you take a picture to your so you're into your stylist and be like can you do this can you do this just think about when Demi Moore looked great with that Naren ghost I will too so let's get my no but that we yeah and it was easier for like you know In-person participant 1: for the modern woman to achieve because they didn't need as much product, they didn't need as much equipment or whatever to make the wave as opposed to the finger waves where you really had to like super glue that shit down and make it hold. Lori. I agree. And all of them pin curls. So it's practical. People use lot of brats, like sparkly brats or... Sean: the modern woman to achieve because they didn't need as much product, didn't need as much equipment or whatever to make the wave as opposed to the finger waves where you really had to super glue that shit down and make it hold. Laurie? I agree. all of them pin curls, so it's practical. use lot of brats, like sparkly brats or. In-person participant 1: pin curls or like, yeah, just, it was a lot less maintenance for sure in the femininity of it. It made it easier because they could kind of go with their. Sean: Andrew? Everything these two said, one of the things that I read about this was in Hairdresser Weekly magazine in 1939 said, whereas we do not endorse long hair, because then that's when styles started to get shorter again in 1939. But yeah, I love a lot of the styles. In-person participant 1: Andrew? Everything these two said, one of the things that I read about this was in Hairdresser Weekly magazine in 1939 said, whereas we do not endorse long hair, we do, because then that's when style started to get shorter again in 1939. But yeah, I love a lot of the styles. of the 30 hairstyles just because they were easier in my opinion and we haven't got to the 40s yet so but yeah. Sean: of the 30 hairstyles just because they were easier ⁓ in my opinion and we haven't got to the 40s yet. ⁓ but yeah. So one of the things that I saw, everything you said is the move from, and we already talked about this quite a bit, but from the 20s to the 30s, ⁓ focusing on silhouettes, focusing on, and a lot of it was the movies, the movie stars, but also ⁓ what looked good on camera for actresses at the time. But the deep side part was another one of the things I saw that, because it creates this flattering line across the forehead, ⁓ but it looked really good on camera. And so whether or not you liked it or not, it just looked good on camera. Laura, it looked like you had a thought about that. she was referencing Veronica Lake. Yeah. ⁓ it very dramatic and super sexy. In-person participant 1: But it looked really good on camera and so whether or not You liked it or not. It just looked good on camera Laura you it looked like you had thought Like she was referencing Veronica Lake. Yeah Yeah, cuz it was very dramatic and super sexy and so I think that's ⁓ Sean: And so I think that's. In-person participant 1: Like, yeah, it'd take a lot of influence from film. What's funny is you have those two back to back. And the first thing I thought when capes is I always picture it. And it is of that time. The film is not made in that time. It's LA confidential. But remember, she has been done. She's undergone some work to look like Veronica Lake. So she has the hair. It's just it's all very feminine and striking. And yeah, so. ⁓ Sean: Yeah. What's funny is you have those two back to back. And the first thing I thought when capes is I always picture it. And it is of that time. The film is not made in that time is Ellie confidential. But remember, she has been done. She's undergone some work to look like Veronica Lake. So she has the hair. It's just it's all very feminine and striking. And yeah, so. ⁓ I'm interested about number seven. want to get to this to hear. ⁓ wow. I kind of set myself up for that. ⁓ But number seven, I have backless dresses. But Andrea, you already kind of mentioned that as part of the, when we were talking about gowns in general. but ⁓ Lori, talk to me about this, the idea of backless dresses in the thirties. In-person participant 1: I'm interested about number seven. want to get to this. you are. I kind set myself up for that. But number seven, I have backless dresses. But Andrea, you already kind of mentioned that as part of the buy-in when you're talking about gowns in general. but ⁓ Lori, talk to me about this, idea of backless dresses in the 30s. It was like we were talking about earlier, you know, with the high. And so it gave a little bit of the drama that we're referencing. Because it, yeah, they just went low, just kind of, it kind of rounded the shoulders without being too severe, kind of softened them a little bit. And it kind of gave interest, like maybe you weren't comfortable with showing, because at that time cleavage wasn't, they didn't really love it. ⁓ I hated the thirties. So, so I think that's where they were able to be a little bit more dramatic. Sean: Yeah, they just went low, just kind of rounded the shoulders without being too severe, of softened them a little bit. And it kind of gave interest, like maybe you weren't comfortable with showing, because at that time cleavage wasn't, they didn't really love it. Oh, I would have hated the 30s. I think that's where they were able to be a little bit more. In-person participant 1: show you, but with the back. Wasn't I don't think considered so risque and still kind of sexy in my opinion Yeah, a lot of drama on this episode. You drama. You're gonna say what I was gonna say. Well, it's you I feel that a backless gown is more risque because how she keeping the twins at home so that was I mean it was like you did have because underwear changed then to a corset had to be lower a girdle had to be you had the boning Sean: and still kind of sexy, in my opinion. Yeah, a lot of drama on this episode. We've said drama a lot. You're going to say what I was going to say. Well, it's you, Andrea. Is it me? Yeah. I feel that a backless gown is more risque because how she keeping the twins at home. that was, I mean, it was like you did have it because underwear changed then too. Of course it had to be lower. A girdle had to be, you had the boning was now. you would, you were going, some women were In-person participant 1: Was now so you would you were going some women were going without? We're going without foundations You know you would you see? You do see in some of those films if it got passed because you would see like like nipples would be hard because you had that That material rubbing. Do you need me to say it slower Sean? But I find it more risque. I used to ⁓ feel more exposed showing my back than showing anything in the front. Well, so we went from a decade of... showing a whole lot of leg. Yeah. Right. Real short, whole lot of leg, whole lot of arms. Then the gowns in the thirties are floor length for a good portion. Right. All the design goes down. So now if you want to feel sexy or you want to look more feminine, like what are we showing? Right. Well, here's what we're showing. We're going to We're going to cover your legs now, but we're going to show your entire back. And so, uh, And it was like ⁓ to show off your tan. Yeah, that was actually I was like, so they're just out just yeah free ball and. Right. No, no tan lines, right? You can't have tan lines. Yeah. We're in a, you know, a backless gown. And then there were that's the beginning of taping the girls. Yeah. Wearing. you know, uncomfortable shit or nothing at all. Because you also have that clinging to every, but those dresses, the back that they cling to everything. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, yeah. And silk can be, you, you can't have a lot. Like I told you the other day when those pants I put on, was like, but I wouldn't wear panties with these. Sorry, Michelle underwear. I wouldn't wear underwear with these. But, um. Sean: Right no no tan lines, right? can't have tan lines. Yeah, we're you know, a backless gown and then there were that's beginning of taping the girls. Yeah. Yeah. You know. In-person participant 1: But it is very, she's having such... This is so fantastic. Yes, I feel that there was so much being covered up, but just what is underneath. Because that's the thing too. Sometimes you have to, because sometimes a corset or a built-in is going to actually show lines against your dress. Which is like, yeah, silk or satin. Yeah, you can't. There's nowhere to hide. Just think like, like, Farrow in Death on the Nile or, ⁓ god, who is her counterpart in that? Who's Jackie? Think of her. cannot, sorry, I can't remember your wonderful name, British actress, but, ⁓ Sean: But ⁓ Diana Rigg in Evil End of the Sun, these are all just... In-person participant 1: Diana rig in Evil Under the Sun. Like these are all like just... You know, or those actual films. Yeah, that's it. You can edit that. Davis or Joan Crawford could make a dramatic exit with one those. Heck yeah, you've got to like, swish it around. Joan was a big fan of the diamond cutout because she had strong shoulders. She Like, she did. And then she, I mean, we're not gonna get into a whole Joan Crawford thing. We'll just- We can do a whole episode on Joan Crawford. We can. Complicating lady. And Betty Davis. Together. Die. Ryan Murphy already did that with his broke ass making shit up. eight, ⁓ Oxford bags. ⁓ So I mean, I don't know any other way to describe these pants ⁓ that. Sean: Ryan Murphy already did that with his broke ass making shit up. Number eight ⁓ Oxford bags. ⁓ So I mean I don't know any other way to describe these pants that. That's what they go by. I had never heard this term before. look, you know, in looking them up, I now see what these are dumb. They're just ridiculous. But ⁓ but let's get into it. Number eight is Andrea. Yeah, I did not. I knew of the pants. did not know what they were called. I'm not going to lie. was like, are they like and the bags made out of Oxford? In-person participant 1: That's what they go why I never heard this term before I look you know in looking them up I now see what these are dumb Yeah, I did not I knew of the pants I did not know what they were called not gonna lie I was like for their like handbags made out of No, but the fact that these are wide-leg to be worn over knickers Why are wearing two pairs of pants? I hate to do this to you, but that That seems to be a false. Oh, that was in that story. I know really okay, so what you're wedding Andrew is Shut my shit down. No, no, no, I can't have another podcaster making up shit. No, no, no, no, it's not what I'm doing I'm just saying the first thing that I I'm trying to figure out why they're called Oxford bags so Sean: No, but the fact that these are widely to be worn over knickers Why do wear two pairs of pants and I hate to do this to you but that? ⁓ That seems to be a false Story of I know So what you're when Andrea's referring to no, no, no, that's not what I'm No, no, no, no, it's not what I'm doing I'm just saying the first thing that I I'm trying to figure out why they're called Oxford bags So with a lot of these things, I'm trying to run down the origin of why it's called that. And so the story I think you're referring to, but the story I first found and that I was gonna go with is that Oxford ⁓ banned, ⁓ what do you call them? Four by four or plus fours. They banned plus fours and then because students wanted to wear them so bad, they started wearing these pants to hide the plus fours. But that actually is not, In-person participant 1: So with a lot of these things, I'm trying to run down the origin of why it's called that. And so the story I think you're referring to, but the story I first found and that I was gonna go with is that Oxford ⁓ banned, ⁓ what do you call them? fours. The plus fours. Plus fours. They banned plus fours and then because students wanted to wear them so bad, they started wearing these pants to hide the plus fours. But that actually ⁓ is not that... Sean: That is not true. That's not what. Plus fours were for sports. Yeah. So they were showing up to lectures. Lectures. Okay. Thank you. mean, wait a second. is a bunch of jeeps and They were like, you can't, we'll be formal or you'll not come to class. so the, the, the, you know, The story. Yeah. Okay. Then would wear these over the top of. In-person participant 1: Plus fours were for sports. Yeah, so they were showing up to lectures lectures. Okay. Thank you was like, wait a second. is a bunch of jeeps in Oxford. They were like, you know, we'll be formal or you'll not come to class and so the the the you know, okay, the roar is that they then would wear these over the top of okay, the plus fours to you know, I didn't even see that origin story to go to Sean: Okay, okay. I didn't even see that origin story. go to class. And also just to still be able to just like... And I liked the story, but then as I read more about it, it was like this is dumb. This story doesn't make any sense. Okay. And I know that I said like big wide leg and I love it. but not before it. In-person participant 1: class, but then also to still be able to just like, I like fucking tear away. then as I read more about it, it was like, this is dumb. This story doesn't make any sense. Okay. And I know that I said like a big wide leg and I love it. 44 inches is ridiculous. That's what I have too. I said, come on. Just to be clear, if we're talking about modern time Levi's, pair of 501 jeans, a loose cut pair of 501s is 16 inches at the ankle. Sean: 40, that's what I have too. I said, come on. Just to be clear, if we're talking about modern time Levi's, pair of 501 jeans, a loose cut pair of 501s is 16 inches at the ankle. And these went up to 44 inches at Some of those pictures I saw, I was like, this is ridiculous. To which I did imagine you could wear, why would you? But these underneath, but it's almost like the men. In-person participant 1: These went up to 44 inches. Some of those pictures I saw, I was like, this is ridiculous, to which I did imagine you could wear, why would you, but these underneath, it's almost like the men, and this is shocking, because this is very not in a male thing, where they just wanted to be better than the women with the wide-leg trousers, so the guys had to go a little bit bigger to compensate. These feel like the pickup trucks we see today in Sean: And this is shocking because this is very not in a male thing where they just wanted to be better than the women with the wide leg trousers. So the guys had to go a little bit bigger to compensate. These feel like the pickup trucks we see today in. Boy, Michelle, anything else that we haven't discussed with these? so there was there was a lot of this in. In-person participant 1: I think that like so there was There was a lot of this in In Harlem in clubs because they were easy to dance in so there was a function. Okay, okay 44s, right, but they were rolling on 32 So Because they were easy to dance that makes it like if you think about the scene In it's a wonderful life where they're doing the you know, yeah the dance contest and they're doing the jittery and the Lindy Hop and all those things it was easier for them to dance. so much more sense. Functionally? I read too that they said that this was something the working man could get behind because it could have a casual look because they're not wearing fucking plus fours and knickers because come on no they're not but these ones they were like okay all right and trust me they weren't the 44 inch guys because It's always a JR that does that. Did we go through the Michelle? Yeah, we did get Lori. We over the top of Lori. I he did it all regarding these. It is a look, for sure. You always know, with Lori, it's a look, for sure. I can't beg on anyone's fashion, because it's so individual. But it's a lot. I don't know if it's a practical... Sean: I read too that they said that but this was something the working man could get behind because that could have a casual look because they're not wearing fucking plus fours and knickers because Come on. No, they're not but these ones they were like, okay. All right and trust me they weren't the 44 inch guys because It's always a JR that does Did I did we go through the Michelle yeah and Laurie Lori Lori ⁓ you're so nice In-person participant 1: I get the fellows want to be trendy with the plus fours, but hey, you can't tell them what to do. I get behind that, but yeah, maybe rein it in. Maybe rein it in. Sean: Yeah, they're ridiculous, let's just be honest. Okay, so number nine. In-person participant 1: They're ridiculous. Okay, so number nine, the fedora, a felt fedora. ⁓ Yep, like the one ⁓ in between the three of you there, number nine. ⁓ and fitting, ⁓ I brought this because I love a hat. I own so many hats that I'd never ever wear, and this is one of them. ⁓ Sean: The fedora, the felt fedora. ⁓ Yep, like the one in between the three of you there, number nine. ⁓ and fitting, Michelle. so many. This is one of them. I like that this is kind of an everyday, like an everyman's hat, right? But again, made kind of popular by Prince Edward again. He started wearing them. then you can individualize it by how the crown is dented. You could make your own. If you were so inclined, you could. In-person participant 1: I like that ⁓ this was kind of an everyday, like an everyman's hat, right? ⁓ But again, made kind of popular by Prince Edward again. He started wearing them and then you can individualize it by how the crown is dented. Like you could make your own, you know, if you were so inclined, you could. one off the rack and then make your crown or the top any way you wanted to. And it was kind of just like a, it was an everyman's hat. Sean: one off the rack and then make your crown or the top any way you wanted to. And it was kind of just like a, it was an every man's hat. Lori? In-person participant 1: Yes, I agree. I also read that it originated in 1882 play and became popular with the suffragettes. Oh, I could totally see that. I did not know that either. Yeah, I could see that though. Yeah, and then it was adopted in the 30s, Pro-Mission era, gangsters, detective film noir, you know, coming back to film. But I think you're right. It's every man's hat. It was warm, was practical, it was stylish. Checked all the boxes. Easy to maintain. Based on that it was made of felt or some kind of blend. Anything Andrea? I have Pinch Crown, Snap Brim, Jason Mraz. I like it. Jason Mraz. Yeah, I mean, Okay, okay. He's yours. Sean: Checked out the box. Easy to maintain. Based on that it was made of felt or some kind of blend. Anything Andrea? I had pinch crown, snap brim, Jason Moran's. I like it. Jason Moran's. I mean, you're little... Okay. Okay. I think that... ⁓ I suffered from this, maybe it's just me, but when I was looking at the Felt Fedora, I thought of men. And it's probably the detectives and the gangsters. But to Laurie's point, 1882 in the play Fedora, I mean, that's what it's called. But Sarah Bernhardt wore a soft brim, center creased felt hat. And a little bit different than like what we think about. In-person participant 1: I suffered from this, maybe it's just me, but when I was looking at the Felt Fedora, I thought of men. And it's probably the detectives and the gangsters. But to Laurie's point, 1882 in the play Fedora, I mean, that's what it's called. But Sarah Bernhardt wore a soft brimmed center creased felt hat and a little bit different than like what we think about. the suffragettes would jump on that. For men, but you know, generally on the Sean: for men, you know, it generally on the brim is, ⁓ it's soft brim so it can be like a part of it is kind of folded up. I don't know what you would call that better than folded up, but just one part of the hat on female on women is either in the back folded up or like on the side folded up on a fedora hat. But then, ⁓ so that's why that was popular. already said that women's rights, liberation defines, but then ⁓ Prince Edward, Michelle's Michelle's boyfriend again. In-person participant 1: brim is it's soft brim so it can be like a part of it is kind of folded up I don't know what you would call that better than folded up but just one part of the hat on female on women is either in the back folded up or like on the side folded up on a fedora hat but then ⁓ so that's why that was popular you already said that women's rights liberation defiance but then ⁓ Prince Edward Michelle's Michelle's boyfriend again ⁓ Sean: ⁓ So he starts wearing them in 24, replaces the bowler hats that we talked about in the 20s. So that we moved from bowlers to fedora hats. Yeah. So I like a fedora hat. In-person participant 1: 24 replaces the bowler hats that we talked about in the 20s so that we moved from bowlers to fedora hats yeah, I like a fedora things about Marlene Detroit guess ⁓ like She wore the shit out of I think it's not much different than the modern day baseball hat where you shape it to how you want it and it had some gift to it so you could make it how you want it. Yeah, and they were durable too, right? So they could, because you were wearing it like every day in the weather and whatever, you don't have to protect it as much as you would maybe something a little nicer or more porous like a straw. I we keep giving a lot to Hollywood and to Edward the eighth But I think what a lot of it comes down to and I don't I find her detestable woman I do not care for her. ⁓ but wallah Simpson ⁓ it's a lot of this is the way Edward dressed was Wallace Simpson. Who is Wallace? She was a divorcee who? Edward the eighth who was set to be king ⁓ Chose to be with her and abdicate Sean: to Edward VIII, but I think what a lot of it comes down to, and I find her a detestable woman, I do not care for her, but Wallis Simpson. The way Edward dressed was Wallis Simpson. Who is Wallis Simpson? She was a divorcee who Edward VIII, who was set to be king, ⁓ chose to be with her and abdicate his throne, and she was also a Nazi sympathizer. ⁓ In-person participant 1: his throne and she was she was also a Nazi sympathizer ⁓ which is why I'm like fuck you Wally but she was she was fashion and she was she did not give a fuck I mean she had to be great at something because a guy gave up his kingdom like right like it was a big deal but yeah but she was she was fashion she wore a lot of this stuff before anybody else did and there it was ⁓ Sean: ⁓ Which is I'm like fuck you Wally, but she was she was fashion and she was she did not give a fuck I mean she had to be great at something because a guy gave up his kingdom like Right like yeah, she was she was fashion. She wore a lot of this stuff before anybody else did and There it was ⁓ In-person participant 1: The nouveau riche liked her, but the old wealth was like, they were fine at first and then I think they thought they were tainted, but she was a fashion icon. Okay. Sean: the nouveau riche liked her, the old wealth was like, they were fine at first and then I think they thought they were tainted, but she was a fashion icon. Hmm. Okay. I learned several things, but I think Michelle pretty well described it, but I've, I'm trying to remember. just want to the, when we're talking fedoras, they're defined by their center dent crowns, often with a pinch, a medium to wide snap brims around two to two and three eight inches. ⁓ In-person participant 1: several things. But I think Michelle pretty well described it, but I'm trying to remember. just want to the when you're talking fedoras, they are defined by their center dent crowns, often with a pinch, medium to wide snap rims around two to two and three eighths inches. Mel doesn't listen to this podcast, so it's made from quality materials like rabbit. No, I was afraid somebody was going to say bunny felt or beaver felt. But then also featuring cross grain ribbon bands and deep Sean: Mel doesn't listen to this podcast, so it's made from quality materials like rabbit or beaver felt, then also ⁓ featuring cross grain ribbon bands and deep earthy colors, browns, grays, blues, blacks. ⁓ Yeah. So just to make sure we're all speaking the same language here. Number 10, the spectator shoe, Lori. In-person participant 1: earthy colors, browns, grays, blues, blacks. ⁓ Yeah, so just to make sure we're all speaking the same language here. Number 10, the Spectator shoe. ⁓ Lori. ⁓ Classy. When I think of the Spectator shoe, I think of a classy look for me because I think you... I don't know, they just look cool. They just, know, a lot of times they were two-toned and they just, they were a little bit flashy, and I love a little bit of a flashy shoe, so maybe that's why I like them. I see, like they were originally, like when I... research was they originally used to hide dirt with their two-tone design. They started as a menswear style and then women wore them as a statement look. I love a statement. And then they were also popular with the 30s swing dance scene. That's what I. I think I just love them because they're I want to come back to that. Andrea? I fucking love a spectator pump. had four pairs in the 90s, all two toned. ⁓ Pretty Woman, that scene in Pretty Woman. was like, I need this at the polo scene. So I have that belted dress, which will come later. I have that. I have that whole look. I and then I just bought them to go with Sean: I think they're just looking because they're Flashing. I want to come back to that, Andrea? I fucking love a spectator bump. ⁓ four pairs in the 90s, all two-toned. ⁓ Pretty Woman, that scene in Pretty Woman, I was like, I need this at the polo scene. So I have that belted dress, which will come later. I have that whole look. And then I just bought them to go with different outfits. I really should have moved somewhere that I could wear those outfits for. Poor Michelle, because I was... In-person participant 1: like different outfits. I really should have moved somewhere that I can wear those outfits. Poor Michelle, cause I was, she had to go a lot of places with me dressed like. We're going to fucking Tower Records, Andrea. She's not lying. She literally said that once when she picked me up. She was so mad. ⁓ Sean: She had to go to lot of places with me dressed like. We're going to fucking Tower Records, She's not lying. She literally said that once when she picked me up. She was so mad. Michelle, anything else other than taking Andrea to Tower Records? I thought it was interesting that you think about it as being. In-person participant 1: Michelle anything else other than taking Andrea to Tower Records? I thought it was interesting that you like you think about it as being classy because what I found was that originally ⁓ it was more associated with like kind of seedy underworldy kind of right because they were also called co-respondence. Sean: because what I found was that originally it was more associated with like kind of seedy underworldy kind of right because they were also called co-respondents and the legal term co-responded is for the third party of an affair so like people are like in court for divorce right In-person participant 1: the legal term co-respondent is for the third party of an affair. if like people are like in court for a divorce, right? The co-respondent is the side piece. So they were associated with those types of people because those like the, know, like the think about like, I always think about like the Fox in the like the Warner Brothers, right? With the big chain. Right, 100 % right they would they would be the people who were right so and they wore that style of fashion It's interesting. I'm very cool. I did not that is so cool It looks great, but then what you're giving into the whole thing where it's real flashy, then it could go the other way. But if you like wearing them like pretty women on the polo field, classy, right? But I can see where you're coming from and I did not. Well, and because it's an Oxford, right? Because it's a true Oxford, it just is a different style. ⁓ It was, you know, more sporty, so it didn't come back into favor until, you know, until women started doing it. Women are doing it for themselves. Sisters. Sean: So going back, it's ⁓ what I ⁓ had was the when you, ⁓ again, Lori called him ⁓ that in the difference between England and America about this shoe ⁓ is ⁓ in the thirties in this shoe was considered too flamboyant for a gentleman and therefore was referred to as a tasteless ⁓ style. ⁓ But in ⁓ In-person participant 1: So going back, it's ⁓ I had found was the contrast when ⁓ Lori called him classy, ⁓ that the difference between England and America about this shoe ⁓ is ⁓ the ⁓ in England, ⁓ shoe was considered too flamboyant for a gentleman and therefore was referred to as a tasteless style. in America, ⁓ point, ⁓ and you're not Sean: Michelle's point, ⁓ and you're not wrong about a third party, but a co-respondent is just anybody in a divorce proceeding, because here's the quote, the shoe was called ⁓ the co-respondent because it was the kind of thing that a divorce, ⁓ someone in a divorce petition would have worn in the days when it would have been accompanied by a stained shirt and a battered brown hat. That was what these shoes were thought of in America. And then to all y'all's point, ⁓ until women started wearing them. And then they were seen as classy. So you're not wrong, Lori. ⁓ all took it back, but it was all about ⁓ gentlemen or men wearing these and an America co-respondence in ⁓ England, Tasteless. But then they became classy through that. And Michelle pointed out, this spectator, I'm sorry, why it's called the spectator shoe is English shoemaker, John Lobb designed the first shoe as a cricket. In-person participant 1: night. They took it back but it was all about ⁓ gentlemen or men wearing these and an America co-respondence in England tasteless but then they became classy through that. I and I think Michelle pointed out but this the spectator I'm sorry why it's called the spectator shoe is English shoemaker John Lobb designed the first shoe as a cricket. Sean: So to wear to cricket matches to observe so called a spectator ⁓ or a co-respondent, which is my favorite But this is a style of low heeled Oxford semi broke or full broke constructed from two contrast contrasting colors So typically having the toe and heel cap and sometimes the lace panels in a darker color ⁓ Darker than the main body of the shoe and to Laurie's point mainly from a dirt again They're going to a cricket match so you can kind of hide High dirt, but ⁓ common color combinations included a white shoe body with black, brown, or tan toe and heel caps, but they used other colors obviously. But it's generally an all leather shoe, but it could be constructed using canvas, mesh, or suede. The original Spectator, which what I found was 1868 was when it was created, ⁓ was originally constructed of willow calf leather and white buck or reverse calf suede. The white portion was sometimes made from a mesh material for better ventilation. That's everything I found about it. just love, I love the contrast and the difference in opinion between England and America. And then those led to the different naming conventions, but ⁓ like, like everything should be, y'all, y'all fixed it. Women fixed it. So, ⁓ okay. Any, any final thoughts now that we've been through the first 10, anything else about this decade? In-person participant 1: Any final thoughts now that we've been through the first 10? Anything else about this decade? No, I do. do have a thought. You said something about, I can't remember if it Andrew or Michelle said that the 30s kind of got lost. I think... Hey, wait, that was the one thing I so sorry. I think because it had such a muted color palette, there was a lot of beige, there was a lot of gray, there was a lot of brown. So I think when people think of that, they're like, it was practical. Sean: Lori. Hey wait that was the one thing I said. Is that what you said? sorry. I think because it had such a muted color palette. was a lot of beige, there was a lot of gray, there was a lot of brown. Yeah, yeah. People think of that, they're like, it was practical. But then they had very... In-person participant 1: but then they had very flashy accessories like the oxfords or the sleeves or things like that. I think it can kind of, because it kind of blended in and there were such major things that went on. And the 20s and the 40s that I can see why that may have gotten there. But I think they still had their kind of fun. yeah. For sure. My Northstrom card thought so in the nineties. What's that? It's a minority. Northstrom card thought so in the nineties, but they had very cute things in the thirties. did. So I was thinking about that when you were talking, but, ⁓ that we talk about how things cycle, right? Things come back through and it's just interesting that the nineties was where apparently according to you and your Northstrom Sean: accessories like the oxfords or the sleeves or things like that so I think it can kind of because it kind of blended in and there were such major things that went on in the 20s and the 40s that I can see why that made yeah yeah I think they still had their yeah okay what's that my Nordstrom card thought so in the 90s that they had very cute things in the 30s That's it. So I was thinking about that when you were talking, that we talk about how things cycle, right? Things come back through and it's just interesting that the nineties was where apparently, according to you and your Nordstrom card, where the thirties fashion. came back where it sprouted up again. Yeah, I think it helped too. It did. There wasn't a huge resurgence, but there were, there were some things, but also I had a mom that was born in the thirties and interesting. Okay. She liked the face. there would be things she'd be like, you know what? This would look cute on you. Like she, she had an eye for it, which, know, looking back, I'm like, Oh, okay. Like she kind of dressed me like as In-person participant 1: card where the 30s fashion came back where it sprouted up again. Yeah, I think it helped too. It did. There wasn't a huge resurgence, but there were some things, but also I had a mom that was born in the 30s and interesting. Okay. She liked the fashion. there would be things she'd be like, you know what? This would look cute on you. Like she had an eye for it, which, know, looking back, I'm like, oh, okay. Like she kind of dressed me like as Probably if she would have had the money would have dressed then Okay, I would say we're did it came back a little bit in the 70s as well. Yes Not as much as the 90s where it like almost replicated what they but in a different, you know, like their hands like there's a lot of stuff in the 90s that came back from the third. Okay Sean: Probably if she would have had the money would have dressed then. Okay. I would say it came back a little bit in the seventies as well. Oh, yes. bit. Okay. But not as much as the nineties where it like almost replicated what they were, but in a different, you know, like their hands, like there was a lot of stuff in the nineties that came back from the thirties. Yeah. Okay. Wow, well, thank all three of you for all the research, the notes, everything you brought. This was great. Like I said, I learned a lot. So that's what I'm looking for. So anybody listening, ⁓ leave a comment if we miss something. Maybe I was wrong about Oxford bags. Maybe they were to hide plus fours, I don't know. But somebody help me here, please. But like. Follow subscribe to the show wherever you're listening to it. I don't remember if I announced it last week Might be repeating myself, but we're now on Apple ⁓ Apple podcasts. We have not been on Apple ⁓ Because the the system I was hosting the podcast on did not like Apple just like me, but we're on a new ⁓ We are hosting ⁓ our podcast on a new platform and ⁓ it likes Apple podcast unlike Sean so ⁓ In-person participant 1: to the show wherever you're listening to it. don't remember if I announced it last week. I might be repeating myself, but we're now on ⁓ Apple podcast. We have not been on Apple ⁓ because the system I was hosting the podcast on did not like Apple just like me. like me. Steve Jobs was a horrible dad. We are hosting ⁓ our podcast on a new platform and it likes Apple podcast. I'm like Sean. So we're on Apple. Sean: So we're on Apple, you can find us on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, iHeartRadio, and Amazon Music. So it's not like we're not out there. so, you you can find us on Instagram as well, we're on Blue Sky. So just look, find us on socials, connect with us. I'd love to, even if it's just to say I suck at this or these three are crazy, hit us up. ⁓ yeah, until next week, take care of yourself and we'll see you then. In-person participant 1: You can find us on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, iHeartRadio, and Amazon Music. So it's not like we're not out there. ⁓ so you can find us on Instagram as well. We're on Blue Sky. So just look, find us on socials. Connect with us. I'd love, even if it's just to say I suck at this or these three are crazy, us up. yeah, until next week, take care of yourself and we'll see you then.