Latest / The Virtual Couch / Embracing Change, Discomfort, and Connection in Parenting w/Mackie Overbay

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Embracing Change, Discomfort, and Connection in Parenting w/Mackie Overbay · The Virtual Couch

• 0:00
  Hey everybody, before we get to today's episode, which you are going to learn a lot of things
• 0:04
  about parenting and the adult-child-parent-parental relationship and so much more, but my daughter
• 0:10
  McKinley and I, we buried the lead.
• 0:13
  There's a big announcement that we made, but we did not make it until the end of the podcast.
• 0:16
  So I hope that you will stay tuned until the end because there's some exciting things that
• 0:20
  we are going to reveal. Okay, let's get to the show.
• 0:22
  Hey everybody, welcome to episode 388 of The Virtual Couch. I am your host, Tony Overbay.
• 0:23
  Music.
• 0:49
  I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and a host of this here podcast.
• 0:54
  Mackie Overbay, welcome to the virtual couch.
• 0:56
  Thank you. You rattled me and I did not finish my typical introduction.
• 1:01
  Do you wanna keep going? I don't actually. Okay, moving right along.
• 1:05
  Do you feel okay with me invading your personal space like this?
• 1:09
  We gotta do what we gotta do for the podcast. Mackie and I spent quite a while watching YouTube videos
• 1:14
  to make sure that the microphone was set up correctly, something I probably should have done a year ago
• 1:17
  when I invested in nicer microphones.
• 1:20
  Today's a new cool day. Today's a new day. And Mackie is bailing me out a little bit.
• 1:25
  I don't even know how many times you've been on the virtual couch, do you know?
• 1:28
  I really don't, two or three? Oh, it's more than that. Four? Maybe more.
• 1:33
  Okay. Maybe five, maybe six. Then why didn't you just say what it was?
• 1:35
  I don't know, that's a really good question. And I am not just trying to kill time,
• 1:40
  but Mackie is here to bail me out because I have a couple of podcast interviews in the can,
• 1:45
  as we say in the business,
• 1:46
  And one of them, I really, I cannot wait to get out.
• 1:49
  It's an artist I showed you, Mackenzie Mitchell.
• 1:53
  She's amazing. She really is. I'm really excited for that.
• 1:55
  Yeah, and so that was one I wanted to get out today,
• 1:57
  but I know that I need to let it curate.
• 2:01
  It's being edited right now, and Mackenzie's actually doing some artwork
• 2:05
  for the thumbnail of the podcast
• 2:08
  that is, I think, gonna have me in her artwork.
• 2:11
  But just to prep you for that, I'll put the link to her account in the show notes.
• 2:15
  But she's an incredible artist, and we talked about Enneagrams and mental health.
• 2:18
  And are you familiar with the Enneagram? I am. Are you really?
• 2:22
  Well, I don't know all of them. I know what I am. What are you?
• 2:24
  I'm a two, which is like the helper. The helper? Also known as pushover.
• 2:29
  Pushover? I was gonna say, we talked about that in the episode next week.
• 2:32
  So maybe we'll have to have you back on and we'll talk about that.
• 2:35
  I'm the enthusiast if that's kind of shocking. Shocking.
• 2:39
  I know. But if you're not familiar with Enneagrams, and I am setting the table for this episode next week,
• 2:43
  it's really fascinating because it's one of those things where that sounds cool, the enthusiast,
• 2:47
  but then the dark side is, I need constant validation.
• 2:50
  That's also shocking. There's always a little negative.
• 2:52
  There is, there's the positive and the negative to that.
• 2:55
  Mackie's here to help out with the podcast episode and I texted her and I said hey, I got a really really interesting.
• 3:02
  Message from someone and,
• 3:05
  There's somebody that I really want to to help them. They are a loyal listener and here is the question
• 3:12
  They said I love the episodes that you've done with your daughter Mackie
• 3:15
  And I'm learning more about Parenting is my own kids get older and I went back and I listened to an episode with the two of you,
• 3:21
  and it was like a completely new podcast because now I know what I didn't know then.
• 3:26
  Can you two do an episode and let me know what I need to know now that I don't know that I need to know?
• 3:34
  Does that make sense? It actually really does.
• 3:36
  It really does because what does that sound like to you?
• 3:39
  I mean, just that you only know what you know and you do the best you can with it
• 3:43
  and as you grow, you need to know more things.
• 3:45
  You really do and so what she's asking is that as her kids have gotten older,
• 3:51
  she's realized that a lot of the things that she thought just made perfect sense from a parenting standpoint,
• 3:56
  no longer make perfect sense as her kids move into different stages and different phases of life.
• 4:00
  And you and I have talked about, we've talked about parenting,
• 4:03
  we've talked about mental health and anxiety and depression.
• 4:06
  And so I just thought it would be fun to get, we will answer her questions and we will come together
• 4:12
  and I would love your take.
• 4:14
  So we're gonna be going a little bit off the cuff of your take on what does this person need to know
• 4:19
  that she doesn't even know that she needs to know now that her kids are older?
• 4:23
  Yes. Yeah.
• 4:25
  Sounds good. Oh, I was like ready for you to answer the question.
• 4:27
  Are you supposed to go? No, you don't. And I thought about how do we even set this thing up?
• 4:31
  And I was doing a session with somebody recently and it's funny because I will go through these phases
• 4:36
  and I will talk all about the nurtured heart approach parenting or I will just talk about
• 4:40
  how you start parenting kids these days.
• 4:44
  And then I haven't really talked about that stuff in a while, and so I have this client, a fairly new client,
• 4:48
  and this person's getting in a pretty good place as far as just some overall tools go.
• 4:53
  And so then we started talking about putting those tools in place with some of their kids,
• 4:58
  and their older and adult kids.
• 5:00
  And then I got really excited, and I thought, man, I haven't talked about this for a long time.
• 5:04
  So do you remember, or have I ever told you about this concept of, I did a consulting gig
• 5:09
  at a very large company, and they were talking about losing their employees under the age of 25.
• 5:17
  Do you know the story? I don't think so. Okay, I think this will be a way to set the table
• 5:20
  and then you can jump in. And then we've got some questions that we've written down as well.
• 5:24
  The gist is I can't say the name of the company, but a friend of mine has a very large consulting,
• 5:31
  Company and they were brought on because this large software company was I think they were and I now did I understand the way?
• 5:37
  Memory works and confabulated memory. I probably made all of this up and I don't even know if I went.
• 5:43
  No, I think I did I'm pretty sure I went I remember staying in a hotel and It does and so I was here at this big software company and they were losing
• 5:53
  losing, it was, I want to say, thousands of employees a year under the age of 25. And
• 6:01
  in the past, now I know I'm making up the numbers, but the gist is that they hire a
• 6:05
  whole lot of people, young people, and then in the past, those people would stay on board
• 6:09
  at least five, six years before they would look to change companies. And now they were
• 6:14
  leaving after 11 months, 12 months, really soon, and they were leaving to their competitors.
• 6:20
  So this company, that cost them a lot of money to train the employees.
• 6:24
  And so it was in essence, older people in management saying, how do we get these kids to stay?
• 6:30
  And it was a fascinating experience because they had a lot of data, I think, that they
• 6:33
  had reached out and paid for. And that data went something like this.
• 6:37
  I feel like now you need to bust me a sick beat.
• 6:40
  Does that sound like I was about to bust out a rap? It did, but I'm not qualified.
• 6:43
  Okay, that's fair. That's fair.
• 6:46
  But the data was something to do with, it was like when I was, when I used to work in
• 6:50
  the computer industry, which was a long time ago, the speed of a microprocessor
• 6:54
  and the size of a hard drive doubled, and I'm making this part up too, every
• 6:57
  couple of years. But then it would, as the years go on, then that went to every
• 7:03
  18 months, and then every 15 months, and every year, that the microprocessor
• 7:07
  would double in speed and the hard drive would double in size. And at some point
• 7:10
  now, and I've had people write in when I've talked about this in the past,
• 7:13
  it's the there's a something principle, it's a mathematical equation, or I don't
• 7:17
  know, there's a bell curve involved in some graph paper of some sort. Maybe a protractor.
• 7:22
  That's what I would guess. I would think so too. Maybe one of those compasses.
• 7:26
  And but the data showed that then the generations of kids these days are moving at this.
• 7:34
  Equal to this rate of how fast technology increases and so then I'm skipping so much
• 7:39
  But then I would say and I'm doing this with my hand I know this isn't a video episode today
• 7:43
  But so now step back and say that when I was younger if my dad was talking about records,
• 7:49
  I was talking about CDs.
• 7:50
  So we really kind of knew what each other was talking about.
• 7:53
  But now, if I'm talking about CDs, and I would go with this, the kids these days,
• 7:58
  the technology curve is so drastic that I'm talking about CDs and they are way over here,
• 8:04
  wherever this curve goes. Not even remotely similar. Not even remotely similar and they don't care.
• 8:09
  And so then no longer do I really have more of the shared experience.
• 8:13
  So now as a parent, if I start talking about, you know, when I was a kid,
• 8:16
  we used to go outside and play and television was called books and you need to call your friends.
• 8:20
  And so if my dad was telling me things about him growing up,
• 8:24
  I was still paying attention because I had a similar, I could- Somewhat of a shared experience.
• 8:30
  But then if I'm telling you guys growing up about, hey, get off your phone and go outside
• 8:36
  and call your friends on the phone.
• 8:38
  That's like unheard of to younger kids. Yeah, so if I was saying that literally to you,
• 8:43
  were you so curious and saying, tell me more about what that was like, dad?
• 8:47
  Or is it just, no, we don't do that. Yeah, so then what was fascinating was
• 8:50
  for the next couple of days at this consulting gig,
• 8:53
  we, it just felt like everything that, the data that they would bring up,
• 8:57
  they would say things like, okay, in the past people would sign up for health insurance
• 9:01
  by a certain day, let's just say November 1st,
• 9:04
  and 90 something percent of the people would do it.
• 9:06
  And now everybody under the age of 25, maybe it's 70% are signing up.
• 9:10
  But then on November 2nd, somebody breaks their leg and they say, hey, where's my health insurance?
• 9:14
  And then the company is saying, well, you've missed the deadline.
• 9:17
  And the people were saying, I don't understand what you're saying.
• 9:20
  Like you're moving your mouth and I hear noise coming out, but I need my health insurance.
• 9:25
  And so it's kind of terrifying, it really is interesting. And so then all of us in the room, for the most part, were these older people.
• 9:31
  And we're saying, well, they should have signed up for health insurance.
• 9:33
  And then the whole point was, the reason we were all there was that the people, the.
• 9:38
  Employees were saying, OK, does company B, C, D and E have a deadline or can you just get it
• 9:44
  whenever you want? And the data was saying, oh, you can get it whenever you want. You can work
• 9:48
  in your pajamas if you want. You can work out of a straw tent in the middle of the Amazon.
• 9:54
  As long as you have Wi-Fi, and if you want to look at a different job within the company,
• 9:57
  sure, why not? And if you want lunch, then we'll bring it to you. And if you want to go cook the
• 10:02
  lunch, we'll teach you how to cook. And it was almost to that point where, hey, if you're here,
• 10:06
  you're one of us, you're in the family. So people wanted to work there. And this company had a
• 10:11
  reputation that they'd been around forever and they were huge, but they were losing their
• 10:15
  employees because their employees were still stuck in this, hey, let me tell you about records.
• 10:20
  If that makes sense. Yeah. So then this person even at one point brought, they said, why do we
• 10:25
  have this healthcare deadline? Let's say November 1st. Instantly, the whole HR department comes up
• 10:30
  and says, it's because that's the way we've done it and it's easier for us. And so then the person
• 10:35
  said, well, let's stop doing that. And then even the older people in the room, I remember saying
• 10:39
  things like, okay, but they need to do the deadline. And then the theme of the time that we
• 10:44
  were up there where people were saying, well, then we're going to lose them. And it was this
• 10:48
  really awkward moment where it was the the kids these days versus the old people and they were
• 10:53
  talking about things like on some of the campuses of these other companies they were doing let's say
• 10:58
  i don't know instagram photo challenges of the week and hashtag whatever that was on campus
• 11:05
  and this place was saying well we can't just have people running around taking pictures because they
• 11:08
  might run into proprietary information so what's the vibe you get from that what do you hear in
• 11:13
  there. I mean it's just it's weird because it makes a lot of sense. Yeah. How that unfolded
• 11:20
  and how that happens and I can see how that's a thing constantly. Like not in things there but
• 11:25
  then what we're talking about today even you think about it that way and just what mental health was,
• 11:30
  was viewed as.
• 11:32
  Instead of the older people don't worry about it or rub a little dirt in it or it's not a big deal or have you thought
• 11:37
  About not thinking that yeah, so it just makes sense how that happens and then where that that disconnect just yeah
• 11:43
  It is and so then I think it's really interesting because you have to be as a old person
• 11:47
  I'm 53 and you have to be very intentional about getting outside of your own ego or what you grew up with
• 11:54
  There's a whole bunch of stuff going on where well, I want validation of what my childhood was like
• 11:59
  Well, if I want that I need to go see my own therapist or I need to talk to my wife who has a similar experience,
• 12:05
  But no longer are I don't think the kids wanting to just hear all about the you can't rely too much
• 12:11
  Yeah, because they aren't really relatable. I sit there and just go, okay, right.
• 12:17
  And I think that this is one of those concepts to where I don't know what it was like to grow up with the phone,
• 12:23
  And and when you look at what the concept of implicit memory or what it feels like to be you or me
• 12:27
  which is based off of the slow residue of lived experience.
• 12:31
  Do you always remember having a phone? No. Okay.
• 12:33
  I mean, because I still had a little bit of, I mean, we played outside and we like,
• 12:39
  you know, called people. We had our house phone and all that stuff, but I guess we always had a house phone.
• 12:44
  Yeah, we did.
• 12:45
  But I didn't get a cell phone until I was 14.
• 12:48
  Okay.
• 12:48
  And now that's- Which now that's crazy. That's like a full grown adult, like not having a cell phone, which I hate.
• 12:54
  I don't think that should be that way, but, and that was even, I felt like I was way.
• 13:01
  Like now looking back, I don't, but at the time I couldn't believe I didn't have one yet.
• 13:05
  Really? Because I think it was already transitioning there.
• 13:08
  Yeah. But then it's what you're saying where you as a slightly older guy, that wasn't a thing.
• 13:13
  So why would you give your little kid a phone?
• 13:15
  Makes no sense at all. It makes no sense. And again, this is where I look at me right now,
• 13:19
  I want to tell stories. I want to say, I remember when I got my first texting plan and it was
• 13:24
  $10 or $5 a month and it was 200 texts and I thought when am I going to use 200 texts?
• 13:30
  I don't even know what that means. No, now I think I did 200 in the last couple of hours probably.
• 13:34
  I'm sure. Yeah.
• 13:35
  But this is what's so fascinating too, and earlier this week I had a session where somebody, a teenager,
• 13:41
  had run into some struggles, some challenges, and the parent was immediately saying,
• 13:45
  do we take their phone?
• 13:47
  And I have strong thoughts on that that probably aren't the norm, which are not necessarily,
• 13:53
  because I've worked with enough teenage clients where if you just take everything away,
• 13:57
  And especially if the punishments or the consequences are a little bit haphazard,
• 14:01
  and there is no rhyme or reason, that eventually the kid just feels like,
• 14:05
  okay, whatever. I don't even care. You're going to take it anyway.
• 14:08
  They probably have a burner phone or those sort of things anyway.
• 14:11
  Did you ever have your phone taken away? Never. Okay. Did you ever deserve to have it taken away?
• 14:17
  I don't remember. Maybe. Did we threaten you? I don't think you really did.
• 14:21
  Yeah. And you turned out perfect, right?
• 14:25
  What? Okay, so, all right, let's talk though about, so that's where I just thought there's a way
• 14:31
  to start framing where we wanna go because I think parents and this person listening
• 14:35
  that wrote in, that we really have to sit with some discomfort, we have to look
• 14:40
  at all these opportunities for growth,
• 14:42
  and we have to just watch ourselves and just, well, yeah, but, well, yeah,
• 14:47
  but you need to just sign up for insurance by November 1st.
• 14:51
  And if you're hearing that metaphorically, it's like, I don't even know what we're talking about.
• 14:55
  So it's like that communication looks different now.
• 14:57
  Yeah, it really does. And it's not a thing where you can just disregard that.
• 15:02
  You have to feel the uncomfortable things and grow with it, which is scary.
• 15:09
  And some of these questions, you can go in whatever direction you want, but if we're
• 15:12
  just talking about communication, we use the phrases so often now, feeling heard and feeling
• 15:17
  understood. And are those concepts that you were aware of in high school or they meant something to you?
• 15:23
  I mean I don't think I was necessarily aware. I feel like at that age, I think...
• 15:29
  Like a high school age person, you're seeking that, but you don't really have a name for it. Yeah.
• 15:33
  Like you don't really know what you're seeking or what you're looking for,
• 15:38
  which is really hard then for anyone trying to help because there's not really a name to it.
• 15:44
  Is there a time where you can identify that you felt heard or understood by mom or me?
• 15:49
  I think a lot, being that age, a lot of it was like, it was hard to grasp that feeling
• 15:56
  because there was no immediate fix or anything.
• 15:59
  So it was hard to feel heard, but I did feel like, I think we've talked about this in other episodes too,
• 16:06
  but just you would come sit on my floor.
• 16:09
  A very messy floor.
• 16:10
  Okay. We didn't need to go into that. Okay, we can edit that out.
• 16:15
  But anyways. A very clean floor. Thank you.
• 16:19
  You would come sit on my floor, whether I wanted you to be there or not.
• 16:22
  And I'd be being grumpy on my bed or whatever, and just wanting to be left alone.
• 16:27
  And I think that you just showing up that way was then allowing me to,
• 16:35
  I don't even know if that's right.
• 16:35
  Yeah, like feel, like even if I wasn't putting the words to it or acknowledging it
• 16:40
  because I was being grumpy and get out of my space and like that type of thing,
• 16:44
  I think there was an aspect of, okay,
• 16:47
  even if it doesn't, even if I can't figure this out, this guy's in my corner. Yeah.
• 16:51
  And I don't know if that even answers it at all. Oh, it does.
• 16:54
  It does and so this is gonna be fun today because I want to introduce some concepts that I haven't talked about and probably since
• 17:00
  We talked about things last and they weren't part of what I would have talked about with parenting
• 17:04
  So I like to say that every kid and especially teenager exhibits signs as if they were a young narcissist in training,
• 17:11
  Very egocentric and everything again. This is a bless their heart, but everything revolves around them,
• 17:17
  So if the parent doesn't give them what they want, then they what does that feel like?
• 17:23
  Like, I don't, you probably got everything you wanted all the time.
• 17:26
  Yeah. But I mean, but can you think of times where it felt like you must not care about me
• 17:32
  if you aren't doing what I would like for you to, or is that too general?
• 17:36
  I think maybe it's still general, but I think it's that,
• 17:42
  it goes back to that there isn't an immediate fix thing.
• 17:46
  But when you are in that high school age, slightly narcissistic, everything revolves around you,
• 17:51
  when somebody's not offering you up an instant fix or if what they are offering you doesn't instantly fix it,
• 17:58
  it's such a strange feeling because in one sense, you want to be like, well, they're trying to help,
• 18:03
  but in another sense, it's like, you're not fixing this.
• 18:06
  And there becomes this kind of disconnect and this weird thing.
• 18:09
  Looking back at it now, I know you were just trying to offer up things to help,
• 18:13
  like with my anxiety and my depression and all of these things,
• 18:15
  but because it didn't fix it in the moment.
• 18:18
  I had such a hard time just being like, okay, cool. Oh, Mackie, let's talk about, let's stay there for a minute because I think that is difficult
• 18:24
  because you're capturing it perfectly where if you didn't feel good about yourself or
• 18:30
  about a situation going on in your life and I would come lay on your floor or mom and
• 18:34
  I would want to talk to you and then we're saying what's going on and then if you would
• 18:38
  be upset, well, I just feel this and nobody cares and these sort of things.
• 18:43
  Then we immediately, and this is the stuff I don't think I've ever really laid out from
• 18:46
  from a parenting standpoint before, that makes us feel anxious.
• 18:50
  And so we wanna get rid of our anxiety. We wanna get rid of our discomfort by telling you it's going to be okay.
• 18:55
  Right.
• 18:56
  Oh, I feel better. How do you feel, Mac? And then I'm sitting there going, it's not okay.
• 18:59
  It's not going to be okay. Stop saying that.
• 19:02
  Yeah. Because I remember you offered up therapy and you offered up, okay, let's go see a psychiatrist.
• 19:05
  I remember sitting on my floor in the middle of a panic attack
• 19:07
  and you pulled out headspace and you were- That's not the time.
• 19:09
  Is it? Like I'm freaking out. And you're like, let's breathe.
• 19:13
  And I'm like, you know what I mean? Like just this crazy thing.
• 19:16
  And so it's just, I don't even know what to do with that. Because that's not helpful.
• 19:20
  No, I love this so much, Becky, but that, because in that moment,
• 19:22
  it's about me or the parent wanting to get rid of their discomfort.
• 19:27
  Right, sometimes that's, as much as it makes sense as a human
• 19:30
  to want to try to get rid of your discomfort
• 19:32
  and the discomfort of your kid, sometimes you have to hold onto that discomfort.
• 19:37
  Yeah, because it's not about you at that moment. You're gonna be there.
• 19:39
  Yeah, it's just not, and that's hard.
• 19:41
  And that's asking a lot of somebody to constantly put that aside.
• 19:45
  But in that moment, yeah, it's not about you, as hard as that is.
• 19:48
  That's so good, and it's so well said. And I pulled up this thing around,
• 19:51
  I'm trying to write some stuff, there's a book called Masculine in the Relationship
• 19:55
  by a guy named G.S. Youngblood, and it is not a parenting book,
• 19:58
  but he has these concepts around what is called holding this masculine frame.
• 20:03
  And I'm trying, I'm being honest, I'm trying to rewrite this,
• 20:06
  because when you talk about masculine, feminine, What do you think of?
• 20:09
  It just gets yucky and I don't know. Male, female, like whatever, and toxic masculinity or bro culture.
• 20:17
  And I got to tell you, the book is not that, but I know that that's the concept that people think
• 20:21
  about. But this is why I bring this up. And I think this stuff is so fascinating. Basically,
• 20:25
  in that scenario, you don't know what you want, but you don't feel good. And then you reach out
• 20:30
  and then a parent says, okay, I want to be here for you, but you're making it really hard for me.
• 20:35
  Because again, I just made it about me. And now all of a sudden you feel less heard or less understood.
• 20:42
  And then even as the kid, I think it starts to feel, well, then now I need to ease your discomfort.
• 20:46
  Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah.
• 20:47
  And then it becomes a whole new level of then like, okay, I'm good. Like,
• 20:50
  okay, let's not talk about this. So, you know, like that's what it gets to.
• 20:53
  And so then this concept that talks about this holding the masculine frame. And again,
• 20:56
  I'm trying to rewrite some of this. I think I'm going to set a masculine feminine. It's
• 21:00
  more about presence and radiance. It's more about the picture frame to the artwork,
• 21:05
  or it's the riverbank to the flowing river. So I've been looking at maybe reframing it or
• 21:09
  renaming it assertive and nurturing. So because either male or female can be assertive or male
• 21:14
  or female can be nurturing. Yeah, it's like that fits any scenario. Yeah, but right now it's still
• 21:18
  so in my head about this holding the masculine frame. But here's the concept. So let's say that
• 21:21
  you are feeling emotionally dysregulated. Your amygdala is hijacked, but you don't know what
• 21:26
  you need. And that, and it, and that's usually how it is. Yeah. Not just anybody, anybody. So
• 21:32
  So then a parent steps in and they feel so uncomfortable and they hurt for their kid
• 21:36
  and they want to then get rid of their kid's discomfort.
• 21:39
  But their kid right now is not even sure what they need. And so it's almost like, OK, dance for me, old man, and I'll tell you if you do well.
• 21:47
  And you're not. I'm not a good dancer.
• 21:49
  Right. Shockingly. I mean, I was surprised a little bit. It didn't see that one coming.
• 21:54
  No. So the concepts that I'm trying to put in play here are in holding the masculine frame
• 21:59
  or holding the assertive frame is the first tenet is don't play victim.
• 22:03
  And this is from the role of the parent.
• 22:05
  So, if I come in there and I go, geez, hey, don't say that stuff. You're being mean.
• 22:11
  If I'm a victim, does that help you? Not at all. No.
• 22:15
  The second one, I think this one is so powerful, is know that your kid in that situation is
• 22:20
  testing the relationship for safety because they feel unsafe.
• 22:23
  What do you think about this?
• 22:25
  That's deep. That part alone, and this concept goes in a marital relationship, if not that your mom
• 22:32
  on whatever be an emotionally dysregulated state.
• 22:34
  But if she was feeling like I just feel anxious and angry and sad or whatever, I want to fix it.
• 22:40
  I wanna say it's okay because I want her to calm down because I love her and I wanna get rid of my discomfort
• 22:45
  because if I can't smooth the waters here, it might be a rough night.
• 22:49
  She's not gonna wanna play Rummikub with me.
• 22:51
  Not at all. Right?
• 22:53
  Heaven forbid Mario Kart. Not gonna happen. So I love that concept where it's okay,
• 22:57
  know that your teenager, your spouse, me, if I'm losing my stuff,
• 23:01
  that I'm testing the relationship for safety, I feel unsafe.
• 23:04
  Doesn't that resonate?
• 23:05
  Yeah. So then the third thing, which I think is so powerful as well,
• 23:09
  is putting connection ahead of fear or ego.
• 23:13
  So now is this time where I've been looking so much at the idea of consistency.
• 23:17
  So connection is I'm gonna be here. I'm gonna be here, I'm gonna be consistent.
• 23:21
  And it's ahead of my fear, fear that I may not be able to say the right thing,
• 23:26
  and then you're not gonna wanna play Rummy Cube.
• 23:28
  And if we're talking about a marital relationship, I can say, if you know what I mean, okay.
• 23:32
  But I mean, it's funny though, because I feel like that's not one of resonate.
• 23:34
  Cause that's where if a guy says in the scenario, I got to calm her down or tonight shot.
• 23:39
  Yeah. So then it's, but you're putting connection ahead of your fear or ego.
• 23:44
  When you, any teenager, any young adult, anyone is in an emotionally dysregulated state and they
• 23:50
  want the other person to make them feel better because they feel unsafe.
• 23:53
  And that person is saying, man, that sounds hard. I'm here for you.
• 23:57
  I am so sorry. It looks like you're going through a lot. That isn't what you need
• 24:01
  and so then this concept of connection ahead of fear or ego is that I
• 24:05
  Often say you're gonna start pushing more buttons to try to get me to respond. So the ego now if you,
• 24:12
  How dare you attack my fragile ego and tell me I'm being a crummy dad or I'm bald or I'm not very tall.
• 24:19
  Because that's always what it comes exactly But I like the concept is if I'm putting that connection out of fear or ego because again if you are already in this emotionally
• 24:27
  Dysregulated state what we were talking about and you feel unsafe and I'm trying to be there,
• 24:33
  It's almost and I sometimes say it's almost like the emotionally Dysregulated or in that moment the emotionally immature person needs me to get in a dust-up so that they will feel alive
• 24:43
  or they'll feel like Like something's happening.
• 24:46
  Something's happening. Yeah. Yeah.
• 24:49
  What do you think about that? That's a lot. Yeah. That's a lot.
• 24:54
  But I do think the idea of making it about connection, I feel like then you have to stop
• 24:58
  the thoughts, right? Like think about the connection and stop.
• 25:00
  Like don't even let the other things go.
• 25:03
  Your mind go in any way beyond that.
• 25:07
  And I think too with the second one, going back to testing the relationship for safety,
• 25:12
  I think as the person who is the emotionally dysregulated one in that moment, it is not
• 25:19
  always, but typically it is like the end of the world, you know, like to that person.
• 25:23
  That would feel incredibly unsafe.
• 25:25
  It's so unsafe and it's terrifying and it's, and you don't have the answers and you don't know what to do.
• 25:31
  And we talked about this earlier, but the fact that having somebody in your corner and
• 25:35
  having somebody allow you to feel like you're not going to be abandoned or left alone because
• 25:40
  of- Right, and with all the feelings you're feeling and all the crazy negative things there,
• 25:47
  knowing that somebody is not going to leave, which I think then goes to,
• 25:52
  if that connection is felt in there, and if that person feels safe,
• 25:56
  that feeling of safety and connection goes further than- Trying to manage your discomfort or anxiety.
• 26:02
  Any words, any, it's just- Like I'm here.
• 26:05
  Yeah, which doesn't fix it necessarily. It doesn't, but I think that's the whole concept
• 26:09
  is that you want it to be fixed and the parent wants to fix it.
• 26:13
  And I think we're looking at the wrong solution, the wrong.
• 26:17
  Resolution solution. Yeah, but it's that's not going to make it better And so it's like it is just about it's like about being there without saying i'm there if that makes any sense
• 26:26
  Well, okay, you just set me up and I don't think you are aware of this, but the next one so we've got
• 26:31
  Don't play the victim. That's an easy one Know that the emotionally
• 26:35
  Dysregulated person is testing the relationship for safety and put connection ahead of your fear ego
• 26:40
  And I think that's so much about consistency,
• 26:42
  And then the fourth one is show your love. Don't tell it. I didn't even know that was coming
• 26:47
  Oh, I know it's in this one I mean kind gives me the chills because as I was learning these and trying to put these into practice,
• 26:52
  They're hard because as somebody like myself would go back to the Enneagram stuff
• 26:56
  We started with and I I want validation. I want to know that you know that I'm trying but that's a me issue,
• 27:03
  It's not the time for that. So show your love don't tell by showing your love in these situations
• 27:07
  You're just I like to just say you're just being and doing you're being calm. You're being confident
• 27:11
  You're being consistent and you're validating the,
• 27:16
  I don't like calling the emotionally dysregulated person, the diaper baby?
• 27:19
  I mean, you're- The diaper baby?
• 27:21
  Is that it? Sure, yeah. No, no, but you're just, you're being there
• 27:26
  and yeah, you're validating the,
• 27:28
  well to say we're validating your kid in this moment or your spouse or that sounds hard.
• 27:33
  How can I show up for you right now? I appreciate you sharing this with me.
• 27:35
  I'm here for you. And if I go back to that one before, they may say, oh, you appreciate me opening up to you?
• 27:41
  Well, how about I open up by telling you you're a big piece of garbage, right?
• 27:44
  And then it's, oh man, that sounds hard.
• 27:47
  You know, thank you.
• 27:48
  Right, and then it's understanding that that kid in that moment,
• 27:52
  again, is feeling all of these crazy, terrible things and they're not trying to hurt you.
• 27:58
  They're not trying to ruin the relationship or get rid of that connection.
• 28:02
  They just are so hurt and uncomfortable that it's like they don't know.
• 28:08
  They don't know how to deal with that. And so as hard as that is,
• 28:12
  because I don't want to say like, okay, if you're the parent or whatever in that situation,
• 28:15
  just shove everything inside, you know, because it's like, you're still allowed to be human
• 28:18
  and you're still allowed to feel the things.
• 28:20
  But I think there is a balance that can be worked on there in each specific scenario that is that balance of.
• 28:29
  I'm still human and I'm going to feel these things, but I can set this aside at least
• 28:33
  for the moment because you need me right now.
• 28:36
  Yeah, because if not, the parent can so easily make it about themselves.
• 28:40
  And so that part where it's the show your love, don't just tell it, just be and do,
• 28:44
  is that often the person will make it about the parent in that situation, makes it about
• 28:49
  themselves, and now they're going to tell you, or I'm going to tell you all the things I've done for you.
• 28:56
  Don't you know how hard I work for you? and you know how many times that I've been here for you.
• 29:00
  And again, what's that, the common component there?
• 29:02
  Me, I'm making it about me. And it's the thing, it doesn't help either person
• 29:06
  in that scenario. Not either, good point.
• 29:07
  Because then the parent is feeling bad that they're not getting this validation,
• 29:11
  but then the kid is now, you're adding this layer of like guilt almost,
• 29:14
  or this layer of like, you're not good enough because you're not appreciating me.
• 29:18
  And so it's not, it does not benefit anyone. No, and I think this is a good place
• 29:23
  to start laying out that, and then the more that this doesn't go well,
• 29:26
  the less safe you will feel, the more frustrated the parent will feel.
• 29:31
  You may even feel like, now it's gonna take on a whole lot for me
• 29:34
  to even try to come communicate to the parent.
• 29:36
  Well, yeah, I think it just, it makes it harder and harder then.
• 29:38
  And then it's just going to continue to create this distance. Yeah.
• 29:42
  And then it's, I mean, it's so hard to then rebuild that. It is, yeah.
• 29:45
  Which sucks, but it's just, it's the reality of it. And so the less damage you can do there
• 29:49
  in every interaction is just going to set the relationship up for, you know.
• 29:56
  Connection yeah and then so then after that don't show your love just be and do then the next one
• 30:02
  that I talk about is you'll never take credit at this moment for your past good deeds because again
• 30:08
  the the masculine or the unhealthy assertive right now then wants to alleviate their own anxiety and
• 30:15
  their discomfort by controlling the situation even from a loving place you know they'll make it about
• 30:19
  themselves and just say look yeah you I I know what you're going through I've been there before
• 30:24
  And you don't understand all the things that I've done behind the scenes to try to set you up for success.
• 30:30
  And again, I think maybe what people are going to hear from this is that what you said a minute ago,
• 30:35
  we're both kind of hurting in this moment.
• 30:38
  But I think this is the opportunity for the adult, the parent, to then be there, to sit with that discomfort
• 30:45
  and to step into this role maybe where they now have the tools to know what to do to just be and be present
• 30:50
  and show their their love at a deep level yeah and then I think knowing that too.
• 30:57
  As you build that relationship, then it's like in those moments, you're setting aside your things,
• 31:02
  but as you're building that relationship and it's growing, you're opening up this future.
• 31:09
  Relationship where then you can communicate and have the feelings.
• 31:12
  And you make a space for it. And as the kid gets older and gets into adulthood and everything, that relationship
• 31:19
  will be so much different in a great way and in a way that you can openly communicate as the child,
• 31:26
  but also as the parent. Absolutely.
• 31:28
  And then you're hopefully learning tools to be able to show up different.
• 31:31
  Right, to then bring that up later, yeah.
• 31:33
  So there's a couple more that I think are interesting. One's that this one's a quick one,
• 31:36
  and it's just you should know that you can usually ask for a do-over, and that's just one.
• 31:40
  It's so funny, when I first was looking into this, these concepts around holding this,
• 31:44
  what again, I'm gonna call the assertive frame, or the masculine frame,
• 31:47
  is knowing that you can ask for a do-over because we're still human.
• 31:51
  So I may respond in an unhealthy way at first because I'm not quite up to speed on what's going on.
• 31:57
  So if you- And you are human and there's hurt there. And so it makes sense.
• 32:01
  So if you call and you're down and all of a sudden I'm saying,
• 32:03
  hey, what's going on buddy?
• 32:05
  Hey, let me tell you about my rough day.
• 32:07
  Right. And all of a sudden I realize- And I'm over there and it's the end of the world.
• 32:10
  And I'm like- So that's where instead of me going victim and going, sorry, I know I'm a horrible,
• 32:14
  I just, I would make it, it's all man, hey, so what's going on?
• 32:17
  That's big though. That really like just, yeah. To have just a nice, easy do over. Do over.
• 32:22
  And just know that both of you are human. Yeah.
• 32:25
  There's one more that I think this one will, this is the one that might sound like it doesn't quite fit,
• 32:29
  but I think it's interesting.
• 32:31
  In the book, he's talked about one of the most effective things you can do when dealing,
• 32:35
  and he's talking about in this scenario is like with your wife,
• 32:38
  but I would say with the diaper baby, the emotionally immature, the dysregulated, the ones struggling.
• 32:44
  The diaper baby. Is to accept her, I wrote, as your lighthouse,
• 32:49
  as your oracle, as your beacon.
• 32:50
  And this simply means that while you are on this journey, let's say again, as a parent of becoming and being
• 32:57
  and understanding that I can provide that connection
• 33:00
  and I can provide safety when this person I care about is feeling emotionally dysregulated,
• 33:07
  that then is there truth in what they're saying?
• 33:09
  If they're saying, I feel like you haven't been there for me, or I feel like you sometimes say this
• 33:15
  and sometimes you say something else, then honestly, it's my opportunity to self-confront
• 33:19
  and grow, because there's probably some truth,
• 33:22
  even when that person is in this emotionally dysregulated state.
• 33:25
  Because I think sometimes they hold things in so much that then they may express things
• 33:31
  that there's some elements of truth in it.
• 33:33
  And so I do wanna look at that as it's not only just an opportunity for me to provide safety,
• 33:38
  but then I wanna be better, I wanna grow, I want to be able to provide consistency for you
• 33:43
  in this scenario as my daughter.
• 33:45
  And so is there truth in the fact that I could show up different or better,
• 33:49
  but that isn't something I'm gonna let you know. That's something for me to take a look at.
• 33:53
  But then again, I think if that relationship has been built.
• 33:57
  It's something that can come up later.
• 33:58
  You know, like it's a conversation that can be had later and it's something where you can both then grow.
• 34:03
  But in that moment, yeah, keep that, you know, you keep that in.
• 34:06
  Yeah, that'll get any inside voice. We bring it up later.
• 34:10
  Yeah. So I didn't even know we were going to go down that path there, but I,
• 34:13
  I I'm grateful. Do you feel like that would help of being able to provide that assertive frame,
• 34:18
  or helping provide that?
• 34:20
  No, I think it's great. Cause I do think as I think just human nature,
• 34:24
  like the way humans are, I do think that is, we go into the defensive mode when there's discomfort. Yeah.
• 34:31
  And I think that happens a lot with a parent and a child because it is, you know,
• 34:36
  societally, the parent's role to then step in and really be the assertive person, and
• 34:43
  to some extent, you know, there is truth there, like yeah, but I do think it's good to view,
• 34:49
  it that way and view it that way, that you don't, it's a moment that isn't about you,
• 34:54
  and that's just the hard truth of it, but it's a moment that isn't about you, but it's It's a moment.
• 34:58
  That can lead to growth. Yeah. Which is just...
• 35:02
  No, that's good. Those are always good. It is. And so, okay, while we're talking about this too, I like the...
• 35:06
  When we're talking about getting rid of our discomfort and being and doing, you said something
• 35:09
  earlier where, yeah, it isn't that we're going to necessarily feel better after this, but,
• 35:14
  I like bringing up the point that we're going to be able to get through this emotionally
• 35:20
  dysregulated moment and then get to hopefully a more productive conversation.
• 35:24
  Something better.
• 35:26
  Yeah. Any encounter you can have that isn't negative is fueling that growth.
• 35:32
  And I think anytime, even if you leave that conversation neutral,
• 35:36
  as long as it's not negative, you're heading in a better direction,
• 35:40
  which I think is the little things add up and then that relationship grows, which is good.
• 35:45
  It is. Okay, I almost feel like maybe I will need to edit this part out,
• 35:51
  but the first time that I put this into practice, And I know I will spare details, too many details,
• 35:58
  but mom and I were driving home from a restaurant
• 36:01
  and we were having a conversation and I realized in that moment that I was thinking,
• 36:06
  oh, we'll have one of my four-pillar conversations, my four pillars of a connected conversation.
• 36:10
  I'm gonna assume good intentions of whatever she's sharing and I'm not gonna tell her she's wrong
• 36:14
  and I'm gonna go into my third pillar and say, tell me more, and then I'm gonna stay present
• 36:17
  and I'm gonna say, man, I hear you and I feel and I wonder and I thought this would be amazing.
• 36:22
  But I remember that particular conversation. In that moment, I think maybe she was feeling
• 36:27
  a little bit more emotionally overwhelmed.
• 36:29
  Grandma Dodie was sick and there was just a lot of emotion going on.
• 36:34
  And so I remember, and I was just reading this and I was studying this concept,
• 36:39
  and I realized, oh man, in this moment, I just said, oh, that sounds hard.
• 36:43
  Tell me more about that or what's that like for you?
• 36:46
  And she was saying some things and I noticed that I wanted to fix.
• 36:51
  I wanted to let her know. I wanted to say, hey, it's okay, or you just need to look at it like,
• 36:55
  and I realized, oh, that's a me issue.
• 36:58
  And it was really hard. But it's a human thing, which I think is important to acknowledge that it's a normal human reaction,
• 37:05
  but that doesn't mean it's the best.
• 37:07
  No, and the crazy part was as an anxious attachment, ADHD person, that then I just said,
• 37:14
  tell me more. And then there was some quiet. And I realized what that anxious attachment
• 37:20
  looks like in that moment where I don't like quiet because I wanted to say, are we good?
• 37:25
  You've got to fix it, right? Yeah, exactly. And then I noticed I even wanted to say, Hey, just so you know, I'm over here holding the masculine frame. So I'm doing that.
• 37:34
  Just in case we didn't establish this. Yeah, but then I realized that's the whole thing about just be.
• 37:38
  Just connect and stop. Stop there. Don't let the mind keep going.
• 37:42
  There was one of the, and then this is the part where I realized that how difficult, you know, or maybe it can be, it can be hard with an anxious attachment as a parent to a kid or as a kid in general.
• 37:51
  But then with that silence, then I think maybe mom said, you know, hey, are you okay? Is everything okay?
• 37:57
  And I wanted to say, hey, that's my line. Like that's, that's me.
• 38:03
  That's what the ancient tattoo says. And I just felt so, I felt so validated.
• 38:06
  And I did. And then I said, oh, I'm good. And then we drove a little bit further.
• 38:10
  And then I remember bringing up some other topic and what I'd like.
• 38:13
  And then we drove home. And the reason I bring this example up is
• 38:16
  because then at the end of the night,
• 38:17
  we didn't resolve or solve whatever it was, But I didn't jump in and try to fix
• 38:22
  that wasn't what I don't think she was looking for.
• 38:24
  So then I can imagine she might've left that one feeling like, okay, he doesn't get me or understand.
• 38:30
  And I would have left feeling like I was just trying to help.
• 38:33
  And instead, so we didn't have a kumbaya moment then.
• 38:38
  But you didn't make things worse. Yeah. And you didn't harm the relationship
• 38:43
  or make anyone feel unsafe or anything like that.
• 38:45
  And so again, I think even though that's maybe not the dream ending to something like that,
• 38:51
  I think it's a win. And I think that if we're talking about the parent and child scenario, that is good.
• 39:00
  That is a good thing. And that is a- We want for consistency and safety.
• 39:03
  As a parent, if you can make your child feel safe and connected to you, that is such a win.
• 39:09
  And as the kid feeling, again, like your parent is in your corner,
• 39:13
  I mean, it makes the biggest difference. It does, right?
• 39:16
  I cannot believe that we've already gone 40 minutes. Can we go a few more?
• 39:19
  I wanna ask you one thing. Do you remember, I think there was a time
• 39:22
  in the not-too-distant past where we were on the phone
• 39:25
  and you were feeling a little bit emotionally overwhelmed.
• 39:28
  You were saying, hey, I don't feel good and that sort of thing.
• 39:30
  And I was giving you my patented, the brain is a don't get killed device speech.
• 39:35
  I don't think that, I'm guessing that didn't resonate or land in that moment,
• 39:40
  but we talked a lot about the doing instead of ruminating, and I'm curious what your thoughts are on that.
• 39:46
  I think it's, it is one of those things. Cause again, in, so in this scenario,
• 39:51
  in that moment, it was the end of the world for me, right? Like everything was bad and there was
• 39:57
  no light. There was no coming up from it. It was all bad. Right. Which happens. We feel this way,
• 40:03
  like it happens. And so I'm sitting there, you know, and I'm like, everything sucks. And I'll,
• 40:08
  you know, whatever, like, it's all bad. And then you're sitting there. Yeah. Giving me the whole
• 40:12
  whole spiel, and I'm maybe only hearing a few words of it, right?
• 40:17
  Because I'm so focused on the whatever, but I'm picking up on these little things and
• 40:21
  I think it's, I don't know if this will make any sense, but I feel like there are times
• 40:25
  where then you're saying these things and again, I'm freaking out and I'm panicking,
• 40:30
  but I'm taking little bits and pieces of what you're saying and almost like throw them in
• 40:34
  a bank, kind of, if that makes sense.
• 40:37
  Maybe not really allowing the words to set in, but they're going to stick around. And then
• 40:44
  when I've had time to come to a little bit, then it's like, okay, I can think about that.
• 40:48
  And I do think the, I mean, just, yeah, like the last time this happened, we did talk about.
• 40:54
  Doing instead of ruminating. And it was just the thing where you were offering up these
• 41:00
  small things that I could do.
• 41:02
  And I think it's great because it isn't, you weren't trying to necessarily fix it in the moment.
• 41:09
  But it's not, you weren't like, go to therapy right now, go check yourself in.
• 41:13
  It wasn't like that, but it was a, hey, how about we do this?
• 41:17
  And maybe literally one of your things was, maybe you need to pet a dog. I did.
• 41:20
  And it's these little things that don't then feel crazy overwhelming
• 41:26
  to the person struggling, or at least for me.
• 41:29
  And then again, once I've kind of calmed down a little bit, then it is like, okay, I can maybe do this
• 41:35
  and I can maybe be okay.
• 41:37
  So, and thank you for saying that because I feel validated, Maggie.
• 41:40
  But the where I was, and I appreciate where I was going with that too,
• 41:43
  is so this is plays into what I call my emotional baseline theory.
• 41:46
  And when things are not going well, you're feeling bad, your emotional baseline,
• 41:51
  not anyone's emotional baseline is so low that I say you can't even access the tools that you need.
• 41:56
  And then you can even probably feel worse that, man, I can't even get to the tools
• 42:00
  that I need to feel better.
• 42:01
  And that part just breaks my heart as a dad, as a therapist, as a husband.
• 42:06
  And so in those scenarios, yeah, what I was saying was, anything to raise your baseline,
• 42:11
  which is do Legos, pet a dog, go on a walk, eat ice cream. I don't care, but anything other than ruminate
• 42:17
  and beat yourself up.
• 42:18
  But when people's baseline, when their baseline is so low, they do, they just start to spiral
• 42:22
  and beat themselves up and catastrophize.
• 42:24
  And so I think I was telling you, hey, just come visit us.
• 42:28
  Because and you were saying, well, I don't want to and I was like, okay, invite. I don't want you to come with you,
• 42:34
  But then not trying to make me do some big crazy thing. Yeah, that would then make it worse because my baseline was so low
• 42:40
  And so it's like yeah, it is that,
• 42:42
  It's a there's a balance there. There is which I feel like we've kind of talked about this too, but with kids,
• 42:48
  I mean with anyone there it's Like any mental health thing ever is not a one-size-fits-all. No, it's not we kind of talked about that
• 42:58
  but it's just not, and that's not a comforting thing to hear, especially as the person trying
• 43:03
  to support or help, because you want a book that just says, do this, this, this, and this,
• 43:07
  and you're done and you're good and everyone's fine. And it's the hard truth of that is.
• 43:12
  It doesn't work like that. But there is something again, to all these things we've talked about of
• 43:17
  connecting and building this relationship so that you can almost like process of elimination,
• 43:24
  figure out what works and what doesn't work. And it may not work the same the next time.
• 43:29
  Right. But it's like you kind of have to then figure that out each time,
• 43:32
  which again is not a comforting, helpful thing to be like, well, you just got to try all the things.
• 43:36
  But it's like, to just do that and have kind of grace with it and know that it's a process
• 43:41
  I'm going to make a couple of more. And then I'm going to try to find some more,
• 43:42
  It's a thing that every kid and every person needs something a little bit different.
• 43:45
  And I'm going to make a couple more.
• 43:46
  Yeah, in different scenarios.
• 43:47
  Okay, so here's the first one. I'm going to make a couple of more.
• 43:48
  Again, I don't even know where I'm going with this. No, it's good, Miki.
• 43:50
  There's going to be, like, a couple more.
• 43:50
  It's just to know that I think then too for both parties, like you're doing better than you think you are and which is your whole thing.
• 43:52
  So I'm going to make a couple more, and then I'm going to make a couple more.
• 43:55
  Okay, so here's the second one. I'm going to make a couple more,
• 43:58
  and then I'm going to make a couple more. Okay, so here's the third one.
• 43:58
  But you're doing better than you think you are.
• 44:00
  And again, I think anything that's not a negative outcome should be taken as a win.
• 44:00
  I'm going to make a couple more, and then I'm going to make a couple more.
• 44:04
  Okay, so here's the fourth one.
• 44:05
  I'm going to make a couple more, and then I'm going to make a couple more.
• 44:08
  Okay, so here's the fifth one.
• 44:08
  It should be taken as you're both trying and you're both doing the right things to grow and to eventually.
• 44:16
  Figure it out a little bit better. So maybe next time it's a little bit easier
• 44:18
  I mean you can provide a little bit more support or help them feel a little bit more loved or what you know
• 44:23
  Whatever they want and slowly that implicit memory or what it feels like to be you is based off the slow residue of lived
• 44:29
  experience and now you've got another win and you've got another win and I'm
• 44:32
  convinced that over time, then that starts to make it a little bit easier to get out
• 44:37
  of those holes, but it doesn't mean you're going to avoid those holes.
• 44:40
  Right.
• 44:42
  And I think that's that there's a level of acceptance there, right?
• 44:46
  And it's the kind of giving into that acceptance without just giving up on all the things.
• 44:51
  And yeah, then just carrying that through. I think we were talking to about even less to say that you are going to, you're going
• 44:57
  to walk outside and you're going to smell the flowers and you're going to find a squirrel
• 45:03
  and you're going to...
• 45:04
  But every one of those things is not ruminating.
• 45:07
  And then I think... Even if it's so small, even if it's like turning on a song or something, it's the smallest things.
• 45:14
  But yes, it's the anything to take away from ruminating. Yeah, ruminate, beating yourself up.
• 45:17
  And I think I was joking with you at that point.
• 45:19
  It was, you will be packing bags and you will be driving in a car and you'll be getting
• 45:25
  on an airplane and you'll be going in an airport and you'll be in every one of those is better
• 45:29
  than right, which in the moment I was telling you like, well, no, because then I'll just
• 45:33
  be thinking and I'll be doing no, because when you are doing the little, even if it's
• 45:37
  a little tiny thing. Yeah.
• 45:39
  It is just bringing up that baseline a little bit and you still are going to think but then you're doing and thinking and doing and so it doesn't, it doesn't feel as horrible or as there's a, I was going to, I need to send you a mom this, but I was doing a meditation on the Peloton app today and it was incredible and the person, I forget what her name is, but she just went right into this thing where she said, when we think about the past, she said, I think we get melancholy because we just continually think about what we should have done.
• 46:09
  Or how things, we wish things would have been.
• 46:11
  And then when we start thinking about the future, then we worry about how things may not go the way
• 46:17
  that we want them to.
• 46:18
  And I think that just is- It's not productive even. It's not, it's not.
• 46:21
  And I know it sounds so maybe sometimes cliched and cheesy of just being in the moment or in being present,
• 46:27
  but being present is packing a bag or being present is noticing my hand petting a dog,
• 46:32
  or it is picking at my cuticles.
• 46:33
  It's the tiny little things. Yeah, and in those very moments, those tiny moments,
• 46:37
  you're not ruminating.
• 46:39
  And so even if within a minute, you've ruminated 20 times and you've done 40 things,
• 46:45
  then that's better than 60 things of rumination. Because over time, you will start to feel like,
• 46:51
  I am just bad, I ruminate.
• 46:54
  Yeah.
• 46:55
  Okay, do we solve problems? All of them? Every single one of them.
• 46:59
  That's a good thing, right? Hey, I think we should probably go in and put this on at the beginning.
• 47:04
  So maybe you'll hear this two places, But I forgot at the beginning,
• 47:08
  the other big announcement that we have is, I am getting hair plugs.
• 47:15
  Now I mentioned that when I had Jeff and Aurora on and they're doing the WeFunder for this movie about mental health.
• 47:20
  And when you contribute, which I did, then you're technically a Hollywood producer.
• 47:25
  So I think it comes with hair plugs and a sports car.
• 47:28
  That's pretty nice. Yeah, no, but we, what are we doing, Mac?
• 47:32
  We're doing a little podcast. Yeah, like not the one we're doing right now. No, like a different one.
• 47:36
  Mackie has started a podcast. I am the co-host. The podcast is called The Mind, The Mirror,
• 47:43
  and Me. The Mind, The Mirror, and Me. And I think it is so, it is so good. And maybe I will,
• 47:49
  maybe I will read the podcast description. Should I? Please. Okay. Welcome to The Mind,
• 47:54
  The Mirror, and Me, where the worlds of beauty and mental health come together like never before.
• 47:59
  This is a podcast for anybody eager to explore not just what they see in the mirror, but what
• 48:02
  lies beneath the surface. I was going to say you read the next part, but it's about you.
• 48:06
  Mackie Overbay, a 20-something licensed cosmetologist provides more than just styling
• 48:10
  tips. She offers a window into self-love, self-care, and the transformative power of
• 48:14
  looking your best. Okay, this is the first. We were running some things through some artificial
• 48:22
  intelligence and I put that I'm a therapist. So it said, her mother, an experienced marriage and
• 48:26
  and family therapist. So that's, that's like, I don't even know what that no, why, why does
• 48:32
  a therapist have to be a female? I don't know if you could dive in to that sometimes. So her father
• 48:37
  played by me, an experienced marriage and family therapist brings therapeutic insights,
• 48:42
  offering guidance on relationships, family dynamics, and emotional well-being. Together,
• 48:46
  Mackie, we create a rich tapestry of conversation appealing to listeners of all ages and
• 48:50
  backgrounds. Is that enough? That's a good summary. Okay, so we'll have the link, actually,
• 48:55
  maybe not quite yet. I was just saying the show notes, but we will have a trailer up
• 49:00
  in the next, probably before the weekend. And so please go subscribe to the mirror,
• 49:07
  the mind, the mirror and me, where we listen to podcasts and we are going to do more very
• 49:14
  clever things. I've ran, I've talked enough. Yeah. What's it going to be like, Meg?
• 49:19
  It's just, it's going to be a safe space and it's going to be a place where we can just next.
• 49:23
  Feel our feelings, dive into things, and just keep things surface level, but then take those
• 49:32
  surface level things and dive in really deep, which is just the best way to do it.
• 49:36
  Because you're finding that you are, I know you're not a licensed therapist, but boy, are you.
• 49:41
  But I have a career where I get the opportunity to talk to a lot of people and one-on-one and get.
• 49:48
  For hours. For hours and get personal. And I've just, I've learned a lot of really cool things.
• 49:53
  Yeah. And I've experienced a lot of cool things and I just, I want to do something with that.
• 49:59
  And, you know, a lot of people know feeling is good and we can feel our feelings.
• 50:03
  There's more to you than just what you look like, but it's okay to look good and it's okay to feel good.
• 50:10
  You know, just tie in all the things together. And that's why I think it's so cool
• 50:13
  because we would talk about this and I just think it's the perfect combination for a podcast.
• 50:17
  And then I wish I had hair and I would go sit in your chair and we could talk and you could do it.
• 50:22
  But people can literally go visit you and get their hair did.
• 50:27
  And what kind of stuff, can you remind people that are listening, what stuff do you do,
• 50:29
  where are you at, you have a salon, and what are the things that you do and you like to do?
• 50:33
  So I have a little suite in Orem, Utah, which is Utah County, and I do mainly women's hair.
• 50:42
  So I do color, blonding, brunettes, all the things, haircuts, I do hair extensions,
• 50:49
  And I am capable of a very mediocre men's cut.
• 50:52
  Okay. If anyone's in the market for a mediocre men's cut. Okay, and you've started doing piercing.
• 50:56
  Yeah, and I did, I've started doing hollow needle ear piercings again.
• 51:00
  So that's just another fun little thing.
• 51:03
  And so do go look on the show notes of this episode and find Mackie,
• 51:08
  find Mackie on Instagram at beautybymackie.
• 51:10
  And you can see your work. You can see my work, you can send me a message.
• 51:14
  You can like any, anything. And can I do the thing where, yeah, if somebody books something,
• 51:18
  Can they do 10% off if they say they heard you on the virtual couch?
• 51:23
  Absolutely. Okay. And I hope that people will go find you because you're really good at what you do
• 51:25
  and you're fun to talk about.
• 51:26
  And maybe I'll throw some virtual couch merchandise there in your waiting room.
• 51:31
  Oh, it just got real. It did, right? So Mackie, thanks for joining me.
• 51:34
  Thank you. And we will be talking a whole lot now on the podcast. All the time.
• 51:39
  Okay, taking us out per usual, the wonderful, the talented, the Aurora Florence with her song.
• 51:43
  Music.
• 55:06
  It's wonderful.