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From Stuntman to Author: Eric Jacobus on Violence and Action Design · Cinema Yūgen

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G'day. That's right, it's that time again. Time for Cinema Yugen!
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Music.
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Yes, welcome back Yugenites, first show of 2025.
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If these fists could talk, action, filmmaker and motion capture stuntman Eric
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Jacobus writes an hypothesis of violence and challenges anyone to discuss it.
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Stuntman and indie action filmmaker Eric Jacobus fought for 15 years to make
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it in the entertainment business.
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He finally got his big break as a stuntman for Kratos in Sony PlayStation's God of War.
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Then he set out to build an action design and motion capture.
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Sorry studio in las vegas with the
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smash hit game god of war ragnarok as
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his target to get such a massive massive
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contract jacobus had to
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give the picture a lifetime to the games developers he
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would design the action based on a
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new hypothesis of human
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violence which he had been developing for years
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the presentation was success super ally
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opened its doors with god of war ragnarok as
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its first contract which was followed by
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a string of hits sifu call of duty modern warfare 2 a destiny 2 midnight fight
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express and mortal combat 1 as well as such films as Zack Schneider's Army of the Dead.
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I'm very happy to have him back. We talked last time about the re-release of his film Contour.
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Now we have Eric Jacobus. If these fists could talk.
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Eric Jacobus, welcome back to Cinema Ugin.
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Good to talk to you. Thanks. Mate, this is a fantastic book,
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an autobiotextbook book.
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Essay study appreciation of
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hong kong cinema everything you want like
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it says right near the end of the book the question
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which you pose is the question i was going to lead
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with how does a stuntman write a book like this
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in the book that you said you hope to understand the people around you is that
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is that yeah i think that that's that's actually why i originally started making
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action movies and that didn't really occur to me until i started writing the
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book you know i was a computer programming kid was just big on video games and i was never,
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i was never very good socially i meant that something happened when i saw police story,
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back in it was 1998 and i saw jackie chan's police story it was like a fluke
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it was some random showing on usa network at midnight and when i looked at it
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i i what i what i saw was uh people moving.
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I was watching the, it started, I didn't see the whole movie then,
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but it was in the middle of the mall fight at the end.
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And the way that people were moving almost felt like a different language, you know?
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And I was always really, I was always into foreign languages,
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but I thought like, how could it be that people move in a different language?
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You know, what was it exactly that made this different from American action movies?
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And I wanted to learn how to move like that i wanted
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to know what that meant and what that felt like
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yes and it sort of forced me to like put
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a team together to try and do that and and
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then and by virtue of starting the stunt people you know we had this common
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goal which was let's try and emulate this this hong kong style however however
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we do it which was this puzzle that we just were always you know struggling with and And, you know,
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it's really hard to emulate that. But that was sort of the fun puzzle of it.
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Yes. Kind of like, probably like finding an old LP.
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I imagine it would have been like that in Japan when they started doing jazz in Japan.
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How do we emulate this? How do we think like this? And then you have some of
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the best jazz musicians in history coming out of Japan.
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And so, like music...
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You know, my theory at the time, and I couldn't even put it into words,
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but my theory was that even violence action itself is a language and it has dialects.
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And I really wanted to know that.
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And that's why I started doing this. And again, I couldn't even formulate that
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into words until I started writing the book. But there it is.
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You brought up in the book talking about the translation of the language.
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And it's interesting reading recently that a
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lot of John Woo's early films are going to be receiving sort
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of a 4k restoration finally it's
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amazing how and you talk about this
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in the book too how these Asian filmmakers
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come to America and a lot of what marked them
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as great in Hong Kong cinema eventually disappears
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as they become their voice becomes more
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generic and more you know balanced
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with the american style as opposed to that frenetic dynamic
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electric hong thong
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action style even the even the staging and the framing
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i mean let's face it john woo got worse the deeper he
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got into america wow that's a really interesting observation
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and it makes sense i mean it's almost like it's
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almost like you're going from you know barbaric languages
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to latin right and and
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that's just maybe that's part and parcel to global globalize
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the media i mean you kind of see it too with like box cover art in america yeah
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cover art in the 80s is so good and then as soon as like 94 95 hit every cover
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looks the same it's three three heads two big Two heads, yeah.
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Two heads or three heads, a landscape.
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I mean, let's face it, the poster for every Tom Cruise movie is Tom Cruise's face.
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Yeah, yeah, whereas it would have been like a piece of art, you know,
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it would have been commissioned.
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It would have had a car going this way, and it would have been interesting because
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that's what local dialects are.
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Yeah, I mean, as opposed to Asian, even Asian cinema posters,
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as opposed to Western cinema posters are very...
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Yeah, I think Japan still kind of maintains that, you know, I had a friend and
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stump people one time, Hiroshi,
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his dad worked in advertising and we asked him, Hiroshi, what is up with Japanese graphic design?
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Why is it, I mean, it sounds weird to say, but like, why is it so odd?
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It just doesn't fit. It's its own thing.
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And he says, because it's made for Japanese people.
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And I thought, well, that's actually, that actually makes a lot of sense because
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so much of advertising now is made for all people everywhere in the world.
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And now they can cater it to people, obviously, but they tend,
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I don't know how much they do that.
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Because, for example, just real quick, you know, when I released Death Grip,
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we had an original cover art that was this beautiful kind of almost hand-drawn style that I loved.
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But the sales agent said, no, you should do something that's much more like this.
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And he kind of gave the template, which is the three heads.
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And it's kind of like, or, you know, it's the one in the front and like two more on the sides.
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And that's the one we went with. And I was like, never very happy.
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I always liked the original.
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And then he said, oh, by the way, it came out in Japan. They did their own cover art.
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You want to see it? And I saw it and it looked way better than anything else.
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It was so cool. but but it like it's not like
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that global language so you you know what you're talking
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about is as john woo became more mainstream
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and i can kind of see that i can
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see how art and action as
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it as you sort of design action to
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saying the lowest common
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denominator is not really fair you're trying to sell as
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you're trying to sell global tickets yeah and
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you're sort of beholden to the fact that you
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know if you're working on a you're doing this for a film that's a
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300 million dollar movie or a game well
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you have to design it so that
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it appeals to enough people to
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pay all that off yeah and sort of like a self-perception
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don't you think don't you think it's ironic that the films that they
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say the action films that they say have a
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hong kong style to them when they're reviewed and
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it's mainly because they have actually they've hired you know one of those teams
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like in the case of the matrix they have wu ping doing the you know choreography
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so of course the fights are gonna have that quality to them because you've got
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the guy you know yeah so yeah i think that's absolutely true.
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And what I, what I do hope, I mean, I, I.
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I think thinking about action and violence like a dialect is really important.
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And what makes Ong Bak work is that it was Thai.
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You can't make Ong Bak in America. You can emulate it, right?
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You can do your own kind of take on it.
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But what makes that film work so well is that it's so damn Thai.
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It's like the Thai-est thing you'll ever see.
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And we love it for that. And then as soon as you throw a hundred million dollars
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at it, it's not Thai anymore.
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It won't have that. And it's like a different language. It has this mass kind
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of language to it. That is what it is.
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But it's a big commercial with farting in it. Right.
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And I, you know, this is probably the thing that Nietzsche was complaining about, right?
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I'm not a big Nietzsche fan, but his idea of like the Dionysian folk kind of
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art and And how that was going away and sort of being subsumed by the Apollonian kind of art.
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And I can kind of see that with America being the Apollo.
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And China, too. Being these kind of big commanding markets where you have to
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make everything global.
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Nothing can be folk anymore. Nothing can be local.
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It's too risky. I have a friend, Mike Cheslick. His movie, Hundreds of Beavers. All right.
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Nobody would have enjoyed that yeah of course it's fantastic nobody would have
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ever like if you if if if mike had gone to a producer and said i got i got the
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next hit it's a black and white silent film about a guy in the woods fighting
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beavers they would have said get out of here.
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Nobody's gonna love that and that movie is dominating so people love the folk art and,
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And so when you throw $100 million at the next biggest action star or whatever,
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you're not going to get the folk art.
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You might get something great nonetheless, but it's not going to be that.
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Yeah. Like when Dylan went electric, huh?
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But one of the interesting things I got while reading your book,
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I don't know why this kept sort of popping into my head, but...
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It made me think of The Shining a lot because of you and your relationship with a chap called Quilt Man.
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And I thought of, you know, why are we doing this, Tony? You know?
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Yeah. Don't go into that room. Yeah, yeah, I know. A little bit's bad. Yeah.
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Yeah. So I have a character in the book called Quilt Man who's sort of my inner,
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not really a subconscious. I like to consider Quilt Man as like my debugger.
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Because as you said, you don't actually hear a voice.
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No, there's no actual voice. It's all sort of exposed, right?
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Like when I think back on how I dealt with trauma, how I dealt with really hard
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situations, how I realized things.
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Like the way that I sort of imagined it is that there's this part of my personality
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that he's this kind of inner voice.
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He's kind of a conscience who i who i
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look to to understand people to
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kind of like you know a lot of us have social anxiety when we go into a party
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for example right sure and well but you know when i go in place where you don't
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know anybody yeah whatever the situation is anytime i go into a room with more than three people,
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it's not intuitive to me what I should do.
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Social interaction has never been intuitive to me.
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It's always been a very cognitive act. And a lot of it's just been trial and
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error. How long do I talk?
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How long do I wait for someone else to talk?
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Which eye do I look in when I'm talking to somebody?
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And I've always picked my left, your right.
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I just always look in, you know, my left, your right eye, just,
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and some people look at both. I just pick one.
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And so there are just these like rules that I just am constantly following.
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I have a timer going all the time and it's all very like mechanical and it sounds exhausting,
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but I think a lot of us kind of approach the world that way where it's very
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kind of cognitive because social skills are not our thing.
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And Waltman is kind of like the, the, the entity that I, that I sort of imagine
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working in my subconscious that sort of helps design all that stuff. Right. Right.
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Sort of is like, okay, so last time you talked for five minutes straight and
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like their eyes were doing this, which means that they were getting kind of
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tired of it. Maybe don't do that again.
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Maybe try three minutes and then wait two or wait four.
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And so Quilt Man is a character that recurs throughout the book who kind of
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helps me formulate a theory on violence, which is something that I...
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Devised not just for making action movies but also
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to deal with the fact that like while i'm making action
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movies in the bay area i'm getting robbed at gunpoint i
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i wanted while i was making rope-a-dope 2 i walked
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into a grocery store armed robbery you know
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police broke into my house at 2 a.m looking for
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a guy who used to live there like there was a
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lot of kind of crazy trauma that was happening at
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that time and and yeah quote man is kind of like the guy the thing that helped
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me make a lot of sense of all that so you get to read about that in the book
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no it's very interesting another thing i found very interesting is this memetic
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theory and the escalations to extremes,
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could you talk a little bit about that for the audience that was um particularly
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well there's this famous,
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French philosopher slash anthropologist named René Girard taught at Stanford.
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And he was teaching literature.
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And what he found, you know, a lot of the time when you teach literature,
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you're supposed to talk about how all the different literary authors have their specific genius.
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And it's kind of a comparative, you know, or like kind of a,
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it's like, it's kind of like religious studies. You know, when you talk about
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religion, you're supposed to talk about this religion has all these aesthetics
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and this one's different.
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You're showing the sort of beauty of the diversity of all these things,
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right? Yeah, like compare and contrast.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Girard, Girard, and you pronounce it René Girard,
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but I don't speak French.
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Girard would, he would read things like, you know, Cervantes,
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Don Quixote, you know, Dostoevsky's The Idiot, all these famous authors.
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And what he found was that their heroes, their protagonists in the books,
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they're often driven by a desire to be like the model.
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In other words, the way that Gerard, and I'll just cut right to it,
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the way that Gerard defines rivalry is that human rivalry actually stems not
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from the fact that we might be different, but from the fact that humans will
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desire the same thing. Right.
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And one human, one person will borrow or inherit the desire of something or someone.
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There's a table with one jar of cookies and
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there's only so many cookies and everybody wants one yeah sure
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and capitalism makes sure that we can all have those cookies right and communism
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parses it out piecemeal whatever it might be so there are all these kind of
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like you know some political solutions to this and advertising knows this very
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well the perfect example would just be an advertisement of a beautiful person.
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Holding with a watch right and they have a watch on their wrist now this beautiful person,
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it doesn't actually say really anything about the watch
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but it is a watch advertisement and so
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as the as the audience what what the
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advertiser is expecting of you as the audience member
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is to desire the being of the person
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right because that person is beautiful they
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are desired the way that you can inherit their being is by getting that watch
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that's how they say you all watch right that's why they put beautiful people
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in advertising and that's why i just never made it in advertising i don't know
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why and no i found that very interesting like going through.
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You know because i mean that when they talk
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about you know journeys they always say joseph
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campbell but i like this theory that
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you know he went into all of these different authors with
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that write about similar subjects and found the you
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know i mean it's like when you look at enough films like
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for instance like most of terry gilliam's films
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are about men whose reach at exceed their
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grasp you know and they
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ultimately either die or or or fail
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or or never you know
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or in the case of fear and loathing in las vegas he he just
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goes on and on and on it's just you know
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i mean he's people kept alive by
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the pursuit of of something which is which
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is what this theory talks a little about too like that is
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that incentive that carrot that hangs out in
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front of your face whatever that is is the
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is the driving force and and certainly in
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in you know what you say you know what
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escalates violence to extremes is
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then impacted then by the uncertainty you talk about the uncertainty of weapons
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like the weapons add uncertainty because you don't know the the skills of the
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person using the weapons can that also apply to to the person like you're not
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sure whether the person your opponent is.
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You know skilled or not as as you know in in
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combat anytime right well well first
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what i'll say is uh you know gerard created the
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term escalation to extremes but he never he never defined it as a mechanism
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he never pinpoint how escalation happened in people because what you find with
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people is you have cold wars and you have civil wars that just are that can
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erupt a Cold War didn't erupt,
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but the civil wars will erupt and millions of people will die.
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You just don't see that in animals.
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In animal societies, combat is never a crisis to an animal society.
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I won't go into the Gombe chimpanzee war yet. If we get there, I'll talk about that.
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But the book lays out this chief differentiator between human and animal society,
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which is that animal combat is actually very sort of stable for,
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for setting the dominance hierarchies in human societies,
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aggression,
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combat is, is like a total powder keg.
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You just can't really use it. It's not, it's totally, we are totally unoptimized for using combat.
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It's almost like we do everything we possibly can because, and this is where
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the escalation comes in because we escalate. Now, why do we escalate?
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Well, it's because unlike animals who are sort of tied to their natural weapons,
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they can't, like an elk can only use its antlers.
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An elk is not going to pick up a bomb with its antlers and throw a grenade over
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to the other elk. You can't do that, right?
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And even an animal that can use a tool, like a chimpanzee,
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There's no evidence that chimpanzees actually use tools to attack each other.
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They might use it for intimidation, but in terms of actually attacking,
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it just doesn't use them. It just sort of relies on its fists and teeth.
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So animals are always beholden to their own weapons instead of outside tools,
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even if they can use those tools in other contexts very well.
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So humans, because we have the capacity to use objects.
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Things outside of our body, by by object
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it's like you're not even just limited to weapons like
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you could use a cliff right like oh i'm
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gonna i mean if you want to like murder somebody right like i'm
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gonna lead them over to a cliff and i'm gonna push them off animals just
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don't do that and they might actually do it in like what's
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interesting is they might actually do it in predation you know
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uh an eagle an eagle will pick up a baby lamb and
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drop it off of a cliff right but but an
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eagle it can't do that with another eagle right but
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but but so like
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humans though we can just use whatever we want we drown people we
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throw them off clips we burn them we stab them we
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stomp on their heads we just there's all these like horrific things
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that we can do to each other and because we are capable
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of doing that we anticipate that everybody else is also
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capable of that stuff but we have no idea what they're
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going to do because it's it's not like
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an antler coming out of their heads we can't just read that it's
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impossible to know what weapon they
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currently have what weapon they might have during the
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fight and if they back down are they going to go and
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get back up and you know bring more weapons bring their
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cousins or whatever i always use the example of cousins
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because cousins are always the guys that start trouble and it's so that is what
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causes escalation because if you know that the other that this you know even
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a hypothetical opponent is capable of bringing Any object well you might as
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well Maximize your firepower when You go out there.
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Hmm and now it's um it's it's
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very intriguing certainly after reading this i probably won't
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watch action movies the same way because now seeing
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now seeing this all this violence as
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you say and as you said a lot during the book all
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the different types of languages of violence i
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like the section about all the different punches the hong kong
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punch the you know the american punch the
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japanese punch the indian punch could you
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talk a little bit about the punches for every every
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every locality has its own sort of language of
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combat and you know
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you see it obviously with action
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films and so the
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question then is when you watch a hong kong action
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film and you see these hong kong guys you know fighting the way that they do
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is that is that really representative of how violence works in hong kong right
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in the same you could ask about japan when you watch a samurai film is that
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really how violence works in japan well not exactly.
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People tend not to have katana fights nowadays and people in hong kong they
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don't break out into eagle fists on the streets but that doesn't mean that these
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just are arbitrary i don't think that people just came up with these movement styles out of thin air.
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They seem to be actually embedded as these, as like symbols of real combat. Almost like a token.
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Where, okay, this Hong Kong style where you have like a Sammo Hung movie where
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you have, you know, and we just watched Spooky Encounters recently, right?
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And Sammo becomes possessed by, I guess he becomes possessed by the
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the monkey king right he becomes possessed by the
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monkey king at the end and then his opponent gets possessed by i guess it's
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new ninja the the child with the ring right and then the two of them are doing
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this like very acrobatic and very sort of like cooperative choreography that
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has a lot of acrobatics right well nobody actually fights like that but like
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that does tell you something.
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If you look at those symbols and what all of that is yet it's like a winzip
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file you have to have you have to kind of unzip this thing to see what the inputs really were.
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So you have a lot of shamanism, you have possession, probably a lot of totemism
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because you've got the animals.
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You also have, you know, Southern China having its sort of own distinct martial
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arts system that was very separate from, you know, Northern martial arts systems.
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And similarly with Japanese, you know, Chambara action where there's,
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We might think that, yeah, the Chambara films might have glorified what samurai
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combat was actually like.
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It might not have really been like that. It probably was not so clean.
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But there is some kind of truth to the movement that they're doing, right?
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Which is, if you take any Japanese martial art class, it's still sort of baked into the equation.
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Where you don't really want to show your cards before you make a move.
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It's very sort of conservative regarding anticipation.
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So, you know, if you're taking an actual Iaido class, the entire goal of Iaido
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is to draw without being seen.
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Iaido being Japanese, sorry. You want to draw without being seen.
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When you cut, you cut through and then you kind of wait.
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And then once everything's clear, you sheathe or you go to the next movement.
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So it's a constant, it's constant almost game of like,
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you know, don't be noticed cut through wait
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and then repeat and that's
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the same way i motion capture for japanese
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video games it's the same way that chambara
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films work and i think that you know
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the the the movement language what you call you know
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what i call japanese punch in that case hong kong
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punch is that that's just
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a very encoded version of history
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and i think that you can just sort of you
27:35
can enjoy movies more because you're you're
27:39
you realize that this is not a one-to-one facsimile of
27:42
real combat this is like an encoded this is like an encoded version of combat
27:46
you're like and not all of japanese punch is samurai you can have a godzilla
27:51
film so in a godzilla movie it's not it's like do they really believe that uh
27:56
that a monster came out of the water and had a big, big, like death ray come out of its mouth.
28:02
No, but did they, did they sort of, do they have a sort of like traumatic memory
28:06
of some big Goliath coming from overseas and destroying their cities with a big fireball?
28:14
Yes. That is completely what happened. That's history.
28:17
They've given, they've given form to their, they've given this beautiful form to, yeah.
28:22
So they've taken something horrible like Hiroshima and like turned it into this beautiful form.
28:28
And if you know your history and you can be sensitive to what has happened to
28:35
people, then you can really enjoy these things for the sort of inputs,
28:39
the sort of psychological inputs and the historical inputs that go into them.
28:44
Certainly eric you're a fascinating man
28:47
with a fascinating mind that this is a fascinating book if
28:50
these fists could talk a stuntman's unflinching look.
28:53
On violence eric where can the audience pick.
28:57
This up end of the month amazon it's january.
29:00
Right now look on amazon it'll be available january
29:03
31st they can they can pre-order you can
29:07
go on there i think that the pre-order is available you can
29:09
go and check it out if it's not i apologize this is
29:12
my first book so bear with me there will be lots more though
29:15
where you uh this one this one though should
29:18
be available end of month that's cool there you
29:20
go we'll put we'll put the links in the description too if these
29:24
fists could talk a stuntman's unflinching look
29:27
on violence eric jacobus it's been
29:30
very good to have you back my friend this is a fascinating book
29:33
like i said you're a fascinating man fascinating story all
29:36
round the best of an autobiography of
29:39
a life spent in film computers study i
29:43
mean i can see the books behind you i mean you're you're man
29:48
wow it's fantastic i try
29:51
and read i try and read 65 i'm trying
29:54
to read 25 000 pages a year i've managed
29:57
to do it three years now so it's there you
30:00
go i've got i've i'm i'm i'm
30:03
sadly got a stack of books near me that are
30:06
all gifts from from friends and people who
30:09
want me to read their books and all this sort of stuff and i
30:13
i i longed away i for
30:16
the for the halcyon days where i could had the time to
30:19
sort of sit and get through them all but as
30:22
soon as i sit down to start reading a book i i get
30:25
a writing job so that's you know instead.
30:28
Of instead of reading 30 pages a day it's writing 30
30:31
pages a day so you know there you go but
30:34
thankfully i mean i've just come off christmas time just come
30:37
off the break so i did catch up on my reading so hence the reason that i read
30:41
if these fists could talk and it's been great to have eric jacobus back on the
30:47
show mate and all the best with it and links will be in the description thank
30:52
you again for being on mate yeah thank you Yes,
30:55
check the links in the description,
30:58
Eric Jacobus, if these fists could talk, and also put a link to Eric's YouTube channel there.
31:05
And as always, my little Eugenites, thank you for listening to us on Spotify
31:11
or wherever you choose to listen to your favorite podcasts.
31:14
I'm Kent Hill, and until next time, you've been listening to Cinema!
31:19
Welcome!
31:21
Music.