Latest / The Virtual Couch / Spoiler Alert: “NO!” to the question “Is God Disappointed in Me?” — Author Kurt Francom’s New Book!

Transcript

Spoiler Alert: “NO!” to the question “Is God Disappointed in Me?” — Author Kurt Francom’s New Book! · The Virtual Couch

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Music.
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To episode 417. This is my interview with Kurt Francom. I'm your host,
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Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.
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But Kurt Francom, he is the executive director and podcast host of Leaning Saints,
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which is a nonprofit that he set up, I think it was almost 10 years ago,
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with a mission to help provide leadership training to people who are called
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into positions of leadership within the LDS Church.
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But if you don't think that that applies to you, please don't hit hit that stop button.
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Because if you have any type of relationship with the virtual couch,
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waking up to narcissism, love ADHD, the mind, the mirror, me,
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murder on the couch, or my daughter said in my live relationship question and answers any of it.
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So I guess that is probably an awkward way to say that if you and I connect
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at all virtually, please listen to this episode because thanks to my own emotional
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immaturity, I truly almost let a friendship get away from me because I was not mentioned in a book.
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Book and I promise you it'll make sense when you listen to the interview.
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But I also want to say that I am humbled by the work I get to do on a daily basis.
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I can't believe how fortunate I am to get to do the work I do,
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not just in sessions, but I get to share information in podcasts.
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I get to speak to groups of people that I can help because a decade of my work
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life, that was absolutely not the case.
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So never ever would I have imagined these stories that I created in my my head
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about not being mentioned in my friend Kurt's new book. So, please stay tuned.
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Listen to this interview with my friend, thank goodness, Kurt Francom.
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He does have a new book that really is good. It's called Is God Disappointed in Me?
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Removing Shame from a Gospel of Grace. It's now available on Amazon,
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and I will put a link in the show notes.
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But I don't want to share much more than that, but we talk about all kinds of things.
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Immaturity, the plague of validation, how we find our identity,
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our egos, some good old emotional immaturity and narcissistic traits and tendencies talk.
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There's that and so much more. And also just a quick heads up,
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Kurt was dealing with a pretty bad cough.
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So I tried to edit those out, but there are a couple left in there. So I am aware.
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And then hopefully the software I use in post-production to smooth out the edges
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will make it a little easier to listen to.
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And if you like Kurt and my dynamic, which I'm telling you, this is not the
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typical author comes on a podcast interview.
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It just isn't. But I have I've recorded several interviews with Kurt on the
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Leading Saints podcast from everything about removing shame,
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about narcissism in church leadership positions, about healthy ego validation.
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Actually, a lot of those are things that are...
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That are in Kurt's book that we'll let you find out if I was mentioned or not mentioned in.
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And I also did a four, five-hour leadership training that Kurt brought me in to Wallsburg, Utah.
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And I know that's available through his Leading Saints nonprofit.
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He and I, we get along really well. And I think you'll see that in the podcast.
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But boy, the stories, the narratives I created in my head were just amazing.
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And while I have you, very quickly,
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let me bring some awareness to a new podcast that I'm part of as well.
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It's called the Q&A Files. And this is done with my good friends,
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Tricia and Jeff Jamison.
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Tricia is the host, and she's a coach. And then Jeff is a doctor,
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and I play the role of the therapist.
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And it's a project that I always thought would be really exciting.
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So I was grateful when they invited me to be a part of the Q&A Files project.
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So there are, I think we've got four or five episodes that are out already.
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Ready. You can hear them wherever you listen to podcasts.
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But we take, in essence, a life coach, a therapist, and a board-certified physician's
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take on a lot of different questions and different problems.
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And so it's just fun to get our three different takes on certain things.
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And sometimes we agree, other times not so much.
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And so I've really enjoyed that project. It's fun to not be necessarily in charge
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of a project and be able to just show up at a recording and then just kind of go with it.
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And what is really funny about that is I also realized I don't get necessarily put on the spot so often.
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So Tricia loves to just ask some questions that I'm not prepared for, I mean, in a good way.
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And so I went into some of the recordings almost like, oh man,
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okay, I'm almost nervous, which is really funny because I don't feel like I
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get nervous in these kinds of situations very often. So that's been fun.
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It's been exercising my discomfort muscles, so to speak.
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So check that out, the Q&A files, wherever you listen to podcasts.
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But now let's get back to this interview with Kurt Francom.
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Sit back, relax, and enjoy my awkwardness and emotional immaturity as Kurt and
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I talk more about his book and whether or not I eventually found my way into the pages of it.
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So let's get to my interview with Kurt Francom, executive director and podcast host of Leading Saints.
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Music.
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Yeah so i think sometimes when you see people
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that are actors and they say they were so brave oh bravely
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told their story yeah so kurt frankham you've been
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so brave today because you're coughing how do you do it you know
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lots of training and and you ate
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a whole rack of ribs i think there was delicious you
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did okay kurt frankham welcome technically to
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the the virtual couch and and this isn't a virtual couch for me you're here
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in person on the couch i know technically yeah we're
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in person i know it's nice back down you are i have so many funny things i want
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to start with but i'm really grateful that you're here we're here to promote
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your book called is god disappointed in me removing shame from the gospel of
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grace which is an amazing book well thank you you did really read it everything
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i ask you it seems like you're You'd be like,
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oh, yeah, I know that chapter. So I did.
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You don't have to read every word. No, but do you know why I read every word,
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Kurt? Because I was looking for my name in it. And that's embarrassing.
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Do we start right there? I think I had these funny jokes in my mind where it
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was going to be the title. Kurt, tell me about the title. Is God disappointed
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me? Because I am. But I don't think God is.
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Oh, yeah. Everybody that has somewhat of a sense of humor and they see my book
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and they're like, does it just say yes inside?
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Is that it? OK, but that's the wrong. No, he is not disappointed in you.
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But I am I think it would be a great gag if I would do like another edition
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where it's like it's just all it just,
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Let pages and pages of one word. Yes. Yes.
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Okay. That's really funny. When I actually did my internship for therapy for
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the church, there was this guy that shared an office wall with me and I was pretty new.
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And I just said, do you ever feel like you just want to tell somebody sometimes,
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well, how about you just knock it off?
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You know? And I said, probably not really a therapeutic response,
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but then I then would say, okay, another chapter in my book.
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When somebody comes in and says, why do I do this stuff? Or why can't I stop doing this?
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And I want to say, have you ever just thought about not doing it?
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Maybe like knocking it off. So have you seen this? Have you seen the,
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who's the Newhart? The comedian?
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Bob Newhart. Bob Newhart. Have you seen this clip? Okay.
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I don't, I can't even come up with a funny age-related joke.
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No. He's like. For all you kids under.
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Classic comedian. Yeah, he was good. What's the clip? But basically,
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he's this therapist and someone comes in and she, then basically she's saying,
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oh, well, sometimes I experience anxiety when I feel like I'm getting,
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someone's going to put me in a box and he's just, well, stop it.
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Stop doing that. And then, and then it escalates from there.
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That is good and it is you would appreciate it's funny
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as i've now made enough about your book let's talk about me
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thank you it is on amazon if
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anybody's curious no it's i want this
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to be a fun interview because you're a fun guy and we
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had a great lunch and over the last two or three days greatest podcast at lunch
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that nobody else for real we really did we really did because i i texted you
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yeah that's why you know that's why i did that i don't know if you've had that
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experience where somebody says i'm not texting somebody i'm just gonna take
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notes on my phone And I'm thinking, no, I'm texting somebody.
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So I texted you my notes on the phone. But I think that this interview might
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go a little bit of a different direction.
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So I'm sure everybody's doing that. Tell me about your book and what's that
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been like for you in the process. And I do want to know about those.
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But part of why I think we had such a fun conversation at lunch is because of
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the days that have led up to you coming out here. Yeah.
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Tell me about that. I need to, Kurt. I went from Darth Vader. Yeah.
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Oh, if Darth Vader had a dad or maybe he does. maybe that I'm sure Star Wars
8:08
people are gonna do you know who Darth Vader's dad was somebody does yeah
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Well, no, wasn't he like a single, his mom was single? I mean,
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obviously he had a dad. I assume that works that way. Well, okay.
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Welcome to Tony and Kurt's ADHD journey. One of my funniest moments for me personally,
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again, making it about me for your book, when the pandemic hit,
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and that doesn't, you're like, you know, one of the funniest moments I had when
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the pandemic hit. Yeah, that was hilarious.
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No, so when the pandemic hit, I wanted to make a big difference and a change.
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Change and i came in here and the first weekend i filmed a
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parenting course and it was called positive parenting during the
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not so positive times and then i put the word
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out to some local tv stations and channel 31 the clips
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out there but they said oh we would love to interview you for
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it and i and again everybody's on zoom and remote i was
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sitting in my office and i was waiting for my part to
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come up so they had a producer that would come on and say okay you're two
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segments away i was getting a little bit nervous and so then
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they said okay you're after the next segment and the segment that came
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on was they were talking to Elmo's dad for real
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the clips out there and so then I'm sitting there and
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my my whole thing is saying okay I didn't know Elmo had a dad and I thought
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I've got two and a half minutes when I go on there and I said do not talk about
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Elmo's dad don't talk about whatever you do whatever you do and now I want to
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be able to insert this into my own podcast because sure enough then they cut
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the anchors they're saying And hey,
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we got a local therapist here who's put together some parenting tips for our
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listeners. They're free.
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And then they said, let's bring him on. You know, hey, Tony.
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And I just said, I didn't know Elmo had a dad.
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And so a minute and 15 seconds of my two and a half minutes,
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I talked about Elmo's dad.
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Nice. Yeah. Okay, so. Go ahead.
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He's coming to town. Kurt and I will joke about being best friends.
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I've really felt a connection to you over the years. And so I've gone on a couple
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of other podcasts, Unashamed, Unafraid. And then we even had a who likes Kurt
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more contest, which I win, obviously.
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And so I just, I really like you, Kurt. We'll text funny things.
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And so then this Marco Polo that all the kids are doing, we decide we're going to Marco Polo.
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And then I realized, but when you do Marco Polos, you have to listen to the people and record.
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And that takes time. And so then I put it off. I do constantly lose the notification.
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Do I though, or do I just ignore the notification for being honest?
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Every now and again, I get one that says, Kurt sent you a message 21 days ago,
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you know, that kind of thing. but we had a nice little run going and I was having a blast with it.
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It's funny, my buddy, Preston Pugmire, he's you and him. I said,
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I'm going to Marco Polo you guys.
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And then I would, and then you
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guys would Marco Polo back. And I just wouldn't respond for a long time.
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So I missed a key one that you had sent. Let me set the stage.
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So I find out from somebody else that Kurt has written a book and I was excited
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for Kurt, but I also thought we were best friends.
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I thought he would have told me about writing this book again.
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Let's just go ahead and say right now to get rid of no one but myself's discomfort.
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Kurt had told me and it was in one of these Marco Polos that I had not listened to.
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So then I'm creating this narrative and I talk about it and we make an observation
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and a judgment and then all of a sudden the other person's guilty and they have to.
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Prove themselves based off of my judgment of
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what they've done you've written a script of your movie and they're
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yeah and let's go back to that darth vader's evil darth vader
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whatever not only are they in your movie but they're the villain yeah
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yeah yeah and so then i'm creating this
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narrative oh so kurt my supposed best friend wrote
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a book that's okay it's all right he wrote
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a book he didn't tell me about it but then i get a text that
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you were coming in town from someone else so then i think okay
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so he wrote a book and he's coming to town
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and apparently he's doing a fireside about
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don't just talking about faith journey faith christ the stuff
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that i love talking about on a daily basis in my own land
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and he hasn't even let me know and so then i get the book and this is the part
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and i sent you the book didn't i yeah so here's where i think that when you
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had texted me later and you said i don't i did that none of that made sense
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old man i think was the text that you sent me because i'd sent a big old vulnerable
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text so here's what happened And this is almost embarrassing. It is embarrassing.
12:01
So then I get the book and then I'm putting these pieces together.
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He's coming into town. He didn't let me know. Somebody else had to let me know.
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And he wrote a book, didn't let me know about that either. And then I told you,
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I remember we had talked about, I did an act in the gospel podcast on Leading
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Saints and I loved it. It was one of the first times I've ever put those concepts together.
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And then you and I started talking about, let's write a book about that.
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And I thought, man, Kurt's my boy. We're writing a book together.
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So we're probably going to talk about books all the time. And Kurt knows about
12:26
my book. and so then I'm sure he would tell me about his book.
12:29
So that's all going through my head. So you can start to see.
12:32
So then I get the book and I literally, I brought it here and you had sent me
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a text at that point then and said, did you get my book?
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And I didn't respond because I was gonna do the greatest.
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Thing and put it on Instagram and TikTok. So I set my camera up right here and
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then I get the book out and I narrate this.
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I say, oh, my supposed best friend, Kurt Francom wrote a book and I'm just now
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finding out about it. Again, I didn't know that you had sent this Marco Polo.
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And so then I open up the package and then I say, it's funny,
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I actually had to shoot it two or three times because I showed your address,
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your home address on the video, which I don't know if that matters or not,
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because it was on the package you sent.
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So then I would reshoot it and reshoot. I'm being hilarious.
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I can't wait to see this. So I open it and I say, So since we're best friends,
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it's probably I'm in the acknowledgements. So I look on the back and it's not there.
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So then I open the first page and then I see, oh, there's a lot of quotes from
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a lot of people that have already read Kurt's book.
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And I ended up turning the video off and then going into the corner in the fetal
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position, having a good cry.
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Because at first I was like, oh, not only do I not know about the book,
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but everybody else knew about the book. Maybe this is an intervention.
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So then I think I'll flip through the book. Maybe it's a book for me about something
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I need to know. And then I flip to the next page full of all the quotes from
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people that read it before me.
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And then it gets to the two and it's not to me. And so then I start just flipping
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through and I'm seeing, man, he quotes a lot of people. He probably quotes me.
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So then I go into the index and I think, okay, I see lots of other people's names. I'm not in there.
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So that's now why I've read every word of your book forward and backward looking for Tony Overbay.
13:58
My inspiration. Right, yes. And I would have loved to have had that there too.
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And this is, again, I'm owning my immaturity on this because we had a great
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conversation, which I think is really funny about this. And I want to see you
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scramble your way out of it on the podcast as well here in a minute.
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And that way I'll see if you're consistent with your response because then we'll
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know if it's true. All right.
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But I've even flipped through and one of my friends, Sam Telemans,
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I see a quote from him. And I've been on Sam's on my podcast.
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I've been on his. I've been on Kurt's a bunch of times.
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You've even a couple of times at the end of the year post your top downloads.
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And I was blown away that I was in a couple of those.
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So obviously I'm going to be in here somewhere. So I don't find myself anywhere.
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And then I see, but you mentioned acceptance and commitment therapy in the back.
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Wait, we should recreate what you said at lunch, though, when you said,
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but I did mention, remember what you said?
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I didn't mention ACT, right? Yeah, you said, but I did mention ACT.
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And I said to Kurt, yeah, it's actually worse because who taught you ACT, Kurt?
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Who was it? I did. But then who does Kurt quote in the book?
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Russ Harris. I love all of his books. But it wasn't my good friend Tony Overbay
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changed my life with the principles of acceptance and commitment therapy.
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No. The next edition. Oh, we already talked about it. The next edition has to
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be, my name needs to be somewhere in the title.
15:06
Oh, yeah. Your face on the cover. All of this is immature because then I text
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her a couple of times and I wasn't even supposed to be here this weekend.
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And then the weather, actually an act of God had to happen for me to be here so we can.
15:19
Yeah. God cared. Yeah, exactly. Right. And so then you said,
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hey, I can call or Marco Polo.
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And I was seeing clients, so I really didn't have time to call.
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So then it's like Marco Polo. So then I go to it and then it's,
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oh, there was one from a couple of months ago.
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And I listened to it. and you said, hey, Tony, I'm so excited.
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I wrote a book and I'm coming out your way.
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And I'd love to, I mean, if there's any chance you could.
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I'd love to do an interview on it. And yeah. And here we are.
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Here we are. And this is, and some people may wonder why, why this long story,
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but this is the. That's a long story.
15:53
But this is like that. Nobody's nobody writes for free as Brene Brown says.
15:57
Yes. Everybody, even if you're a therapist, you still fall prey to mortality
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and the lack of validation at times.
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And the way we make a judgment of that and then insert it into our story and
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then cast judgment on others.
16:11
And yeah and in a simple conversation suddenly like
16:14
it all falls into it did into
16:16
line i think the part where you did and i admire your
16:20
willing to potentially sit with some invalidation or discomfort because i think
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the thing that i just and i love when somebody takes ownership or accountability
16:27
of something which i was not doing until now and i'm doing a hilarious on my
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dad you're supposed to laugh there kurt thank you i'm gonna edit that out but
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i really liked at At one point you just said, oh man, yeah,
16:39
I didn't, I didn't really think about putting a quote in there from you.
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And as much as I would have thought that that would hurt, it's,
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oh, oh, well then that's why I'm not in there.
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Cause you didn't think about it. Now I'm good. Right?
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Cause it's okay. Cause if you've been like, oh, I, I had one in there,
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but they, wait, you weren't in there. Well, you did do that one.
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You weren't in there. You did do that one though. Yeah.
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But I just, I appreciated, we had a good conversation and
17:05
I was making a lot of observations and judgments and you had no idea that
17:08
i didn't listen to that marco polo this is a part that people if
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they are listening and thinking gosh he's a diva it's okay
17:14
it's a diva for the record but i don't think i am but maybe i need to self-confront
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with that it was really funny it was so many emotions going through me because.
17:23
That is so self-serving and egotistical to think that but yet i was thinking
17:28
it so i was being able to step away from that and say don't check this out and
17:31
then i would and try to then stay present.
17:33
And then it was just really funny. Yeah. Yeah. And we talked a little bit about
17:37
this at lunch that the, this is like the battleground that we're on,
17:40
you know, being content producers, having a stage, having a platform,
17:44
a brand, all these things, being the person, a personal brand, like,
17:48
Tony's the therapist. He gets it. He's untangled the knots of life.
17:52
And man, I bet his life. He just goes home.
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Incredible marriage. His kids just love him. Not even a hint of shame.
18:00
Pets don't even bark. They're like so wagging their tails.
18:03
And so I think it's really crucial for people like us who have somewhat of an
18:08
audience to lead out with some of these stories sometimes.
18:11
Where I'm the leadership guy, right? Yes. And with leading saints.
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And there's still times where I'm like, no, I just like screw up with leadership
18:18
or I'm seeking validation in other ways. Or show up 18 minutes late to noon.
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I don't know where I'm going in this town. Oh, that's true. Wait.
18:30
I mean, if only you'd served your mission here.
18:32
Not in this bar. Okay. That's fair. But I like what you're saying,
18:35
though, because it's where it sounds so silly, Kurt, because I think you're
18:39
the same because this is why I think we've enjoyed each other's company so much.
18:42
I still it's the imposter syndrome. I mean, just because I'm talking into a
18:46
microphone, I'm grateful.
18:47
I felt led and called to the career I'm in after 10 years and a crummy career
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to the point where I can't even believe I get to do what I get to do.
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And then speaking about it to people, all I want to do is help.
18:57
So that is the part that was such a paradox in my head where I really don't,
19:01
I don't want to care that I'm not in your book at all.
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Because it's silly to care because I can't even believe I get to be a therapist
19:10
and share stuff to help people.
19:12
So I think that was part of the what is this all about but you were at lunch
19:15
saying you're human yeah right yeah and this is the point I think the very human
19:19
experience of naturally you want to go to this place of no it's fine it's fine
19:23
yeah no I'm good no I'm good but it's okay to sit with this actually that hurt
19:28
a little bit yeah which is and just like sit there yeah right you don't have to live there,
19:32
But you got to feel that. Yeah, you do. Yeah. And as we talk,
19:36
there's no malintent of this.
19:40
But dang, I feel invalidated. And this is the, you know, we talked about at
19:45
lunch that we often in the religious context talk about pornography is the plague of the world.
19:50
No, no, no. It's invalidation. Yeah. Absolutely.
19:53
A hundred percent. And in fact, that's why many individuals go to pornography
19:56
because they feel validated.
19:58
Yeah. Yeah. And I like what you're saying there too, because we don't like to
20:01
sit with discomfort. discomfort. It's not natural for us.
20:03
And so I want to get rid of the discomfort, but if I can sit with it a little
20:06
bit, it really can teach me because I was telling you, I mean,
20:09
I am grateful that I feel like mentally it's a better place inside my head over
20:14
the last few years as I realized I am enough.
20:17
I am a child of God. I am okay. I am lovable.
20:19
But then you just find these brief moments. And I think you mentioned that we
20:22
can still get a trigger or something.
20:25
I think you were talking about maybe there are people in your family that have
20:28
these different callings where Where you can still sit there and feel like,
20:31
wait a minute, am I doing this wrong or bad?
20:33
Yeah. Yeah, because I'm the, there's three. I was hoping you'd tell this, yes.
20:37
So there's three boys in my family, one girl. And me and my two brothers,
20:41
we were all bishops at the same time. So it was easy for people.
20:44
And you were like 18 when you were bishop. You were very young.
20:46
You were very young though. I'm 28. Yeah.
20:49
Because I'm a big deal and I need validation.
20:54
I spit water all over my stuff. It's your fault. Gaslight you.
20:58
And so it was very easy for people to look at the Francom family and be like, oh, look at them.
21:02
They figured it out. They did it. They cracked the code.
21:05
And we're like, wait, what's going on? They just asked us to do this,
21:08
right? But now it's progressed that we're not bishops anymore,
21:11
but those two brothers are stake presidents.
21:13
And so I'm like- What's wrong with you? The only Manning, the third Manning
21:16
brother that didn't win the Super Bowl and is an accountant or something is like-
21:21
Did you not work hard enough, train hard enough? What's the problem here,
21:23
right? So, yeah, there's those
21:24
moments where you have to really take any desire for validation of God.
21:28
And he is the true source of validation.
21:31
Yeah. Because his answer will be the same to everybody. Yes.
21:34
All the time. That you are beloved.
21:36
I love the scripture, John 15, 9. How God feels about Jesus,
21:39
Jesus feels about you. And God called Jesus beloved, so therefore you are beloved. You're beloved.
21:44
Always. Yeah. Every day. I often refer to the quote by Carl Rogers. Is that a name in your?
21:49
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he's a psychologist. Yeah, Rogerian,
21:51
he's like all about, he was one of the first client-centered therapy,
21:55
or the therapist gets to be a part of the experience.
21:57
Yeah. So you're not just a mirror. So the therapist, the client wants to know
22:00
why you can even speak to this instead of me saying, well, why does that matter to you?
22:04
Yeah. So I actually learned about him from another therapist.
22:07
Did you mention him in your book, The Other Therapist? I did. Oh, no, not.
22:10
I mentioned Carl Rogers.
22:14
See, I didn't include everybody. Okay. I feel so much better.
22:18
But I love one of my favorite quotes from Carl Rogers is that the curious paradox
22:22
is, is that when I accept myself just as I am, then I can begin to change.
22:27
Absolutely. And I project that onto Jesus that the curious paradox is that when
22:32
I realized Jesus Christ accepts me just as I am, then I can change.
22:37
Yeah. Because there's this paradox in acceptance that if I accept you,
22:42
Tony, just as you are, maybe you won't change, right? We feel this with our children.
22:45
Absolutely. You can't let them know that they're accepted today because you
22:47
really need them to get a job and go to college and become functioning adults.
22:51
But this is the paradox of the God we worship is that when I realize I'm accepted
22:56
today, even if I'm never the stake president, if I'm never the next leader, if I'm never whatever,
23:01
then it's like that's the enabling power of the atonement, enabling power of
23:06
grace that then I begin to change.
23:07
Yes. Okay. In my beloved acceptance and commitment therapy, one of the biggest
23:11
parts that was, I think, a game changer for me was in that world, acceptance.
23:16
And I would always say acceptance doesn't mean apathy. Acceptance means to take
23:20
in without defense in its entirety.
23:22
So then, given that example of if somebody is afraid that they will be anxious
23:27
in a situation, then they will avoid that situation to avoid the anxiety.
23:30
But if I accept that I will be anxious, then I also get to go interact with whatever it is.
23:35
And I might love it. I might find joy in it. And oh, and there's that anxiety.
23:40
So I have to accept it. But I love it because then people will say,
23:42
if I accept it, then I'll start to move forward.
23:45
But that isn't the point. Yeah, and this is – for whatever reason,
23:48
this is the way we're wired is we walk around just feeling like,
23:51
okay, today, my purpose today is I got to go figure out if I'm accepted in the world.
23:55
And you just constantly do this, right? We all do, right? Yes.
23:59
And from your story, this is – like today, you woke up and you're like,
24:02
oh, I have to figure out if I'm accepted by Kurt today. For real.
24:05
And like go through – oh, it must not be. Therefore, many people must reject me.
24:10
And so this craving for validation. And when I –,
24:14
I tell this story throughout the book, my own journey of that quest for acceptance and validation.
24:20
This is where daily repentance comes in. It's not that I've looked at pornography
24:24
or embezzled a bunch of money or robbed a bank, and therefore I need to go to my knees and repent.
24:28
It's that a hundred times in a day, I will look to something else to prove that
24:33
I'm accepted and not to God.
24:35
Hey, and I like that one of the classes when my wife and I were teaching it,
24:38
and the concept of repentance was there, and we had got this definition of it means to turn to.
24:42
Okay because do you agree because i think
24:45
even when you just said i have to repent daily that there are people that
24:48
have an association with what that means and it comes with a feeling of
24:51
negativity that repentance is like oh man i gotta
24:54
repent oh right right yeah so when it's i've got
24:57
to turn to and then i and then in my world but if
24:59
i feel like god is mad with me which here we get to yours
25:02
he disappointed then oh man i have to turn
25:05
to a god that is disappointed in me every day
25:08
way to then feel like that i'm really bad
25:11
and i think there's so much that is i think
25:14
not the way it is in that setup right and
25:17
this is the poison of misunderstanding who god is yeah that oh we project our
25:22
earthly parents onto our heavenly parents yeah yeah hey while you're coughing
25:26
there which uh by the way i joked with you too that you're doing a fireside
25:29
tomorrow night by the time people hear this that will have already happened
25:32
and if i will have poked enough holes into my Kurt Frank voodoo doll,
25:36
then you will go up there speechless and I will come up and save the day.
25:39
Yeah, you'll save the day and be the hero.
25:40
Yeah, so we'll see it. And then everybody will love me. Then everybody will love me finally.
25:44
Yeah, finally. Sam Tielemans, again, this good friend of mine who you did have on your podcast.
25:48
He's great, isn't he? Yeah, he is. He's great. Apparently he's better than I am.
25:51
No offense, Sam. I'm sending him a lot of validation. Yeah, Sam's great.
25:54
And it's funny, Sam shared this quote with me and I told him I am going to say
25:58
this so many times that it's going to become my quote and I keep giving him
26:02
credit for it. So it's not working. working.
26:04
And when we were talking about, let's say that we find out that,
26:06
oh, we are lovable. We are enough.
26:08
We are a child of God. And he said, the strongest force in the human personality
26:11
is to act in alignment with how you see yourself.
26:13
So however you identify yourself, you're going to find a way back to your home base.
26:16
And we were talking about it in the context of people that are struggling with
26:20
turning to unhealthy coping mechanisms.
26:22
I mean, that's what I like to say sometimes instead of addiction,
26:24
because if somebody says I'm an addict, then they may be sober for long periods
26:28
of time, but I'm an addict.
26:30
It's almost like, but it's inevitable. I find a my way back to my home base.
26:33
And so, I like saying, but what if I'm enough? Or what if I'm lovable?
26:36
What if I'm a child of God?
26:37
Then I might have a setback, but I'll find my way back to my home base of I'm lovable.
26:42
And that's what I love about your book. The part says, when I wasn't angry,
26:45
when I wasn't angry reading it, that there's so much good in there that is the
26:49
concept of where you are okay, you are enough.
26:52
Yeah. Yeah. And that's the power of acceptance, right?
26:55
Yeah. And so, as I repent every day, that's what I'm repenting of,
26:59
that I turn to another source.
27:00
And you know you talk about unhealthy coping mechanisms oftentimes we talk about
27:04
the stigmatized unhealthy coke yeah yeah porn right yeah and a lot of people
27:09
say well i'll tell you i don't.
27:11
I don't look at porn, so I'm good. I must not be in this world or experience this dynamic.
27:16
But there's so many other ways that we cope where it could even be Netflix.
27:20
I feel so activated or so much discontent about not being accepted.
27:25
It's just hard to sit with that feeling.
27:27
So I'm going to just go dive into a Netflix series and forget the world I even
27:31
live in and go to a different world for a while. Right now, there's nothing wrong with Netflix.
27:34
There's nothing wrong with watching a series. But when we're using these unhealthy
27:38
coping mechanisms, even if they're not stigmatized.
27:41
And oftentimes, for me, one of the great things of being a bishop is that there's
27:47
this constant reminder that you're accepted.
27:49
I wasn't Kurt Frankem. I was Bishop Frankem. I didn't go to meetings. I presided at meetings.
27:54
And so for 10 years of my life, I was high on this drug of validation in an unhealthy way.
27:59
Now, there's nothing wrong with being a bishop. There's nothing wrong with serving that way.
28:03
And, of course, we need bishops. We need church leaders and to do all the things.
28:07
But so many times I went to it in this place of, ah, I can, I can at least no
28:13
matter who rejects me, at least at the end of the day, I've checked that box
28:17
of being a bishop. Yeah. And nobody can take that from me. Right. Yeah.
28:20
Where God is looking at me like, Kurt, what are you doing? Yeah.
28:23
I just love you completely today.
28:24
Yeah. Yeah. Of course I need to serve as bishop. That has nothing to do with
28:27
our relationship. But for so many years, I remember that moment.
28:31
I talked about this moment in the book of.
28:33
When I was called as a bishop, after all these years of, I'm the youngest of
28:37
four, I wasn't, didn't perform very well in school while I had another brother
28:40
who was excelling valedictorian, full-ride scholarship to the college I wanted to go to.
28:45
I was rejected three times from that college. I just couldn't keep up.
28:47
He was a leader on his mission. I was never a leader.
28:50
And then I had this moment when I'm 28 and I get called as a bishop and I couldn't
28:54
help but drive in person over to my parents' house to tell them.
28:58
I actually went, not only my parents' house, I went to each one of my siblings
29:00
in person to tell them, in person. Yeah.
29:03
I've been called as a vision. What was that like? Do you remember?
29:05
Did you get the validation you wanted at that moment?
29:07
Well, yeah, but it was one of those things like, of course, it's not like my
29:10
parents were like, yeah, let's bake a cake and celebrate.
29:12
But they're just like, wow, that's fantastic.
29:15
But just sitting in that validation, it was almost like I'm saying like,
29:18
finally now, mom and dad, do you accept me now?
29:22
Now, if they knew I was thinking that, they'd be like, what are you talking
29:24
about? Like, of course we do.
29:26
But these are the games we play in our minds in mortality where we're often
29:31
chasing this this validation from the wrong source.
29:34
And that's why it's so important at the end of the day or in this several times
29:38
during the day to make that repentant step of turning to God and be like,
29:42
okay, just remind me one more time. Do you love me?
29:44
Of course I love you. And he will tell you every single day, every single time.
29:48
You could never do anything right the rest of your life. And I cherish you.
29:53
And that is as, as it's defined the enabling power of the atonement,
29:57
because when I feel that grace, I can't help, but turn to him and say,
30:01
okay, okay, now how do I become like you? And he'll say, I've got commandments.
30:05
I've got covenant. Do those things, not to earn my love, not to earn my validation,
30:09
but to step into a relationship with me.
30:11
And we can become something great. You'll be something great.
30:16
Because I've developed you. Because you are my cherished one.
30:19
Not because you've done anything, but because of who you are.
30:21
So it's what's interesting when you say that too. And I realized another narrative
30:24
I had created was as I was putting this picture together that you were no longer
30:28
wanting anything to do with me, that I was on the naughty list and more and more. Isn't that funny?
30:34
Because it's like you thought you were writing a tragedy. You were writing a comedy.
30:38
Oh, now it's hilarious. Because another one was I have been telling people for
30:41
quite a while because I love going on your podcast. And I do feel like you allow
30:47
me, I'm never going to get on there and try to say, I'm going to say something controversial.
30:50
I'm just going to say the things I really feel passionate about.
30:53
And so I think I'd share with you, actually, this is maybe what started the
30:57
Marco Polos was I said, I would love to come on and talk about differentiation.
31:01
First, I said, I want to talk about that. We're creating at times we're creating little liars.
31:05
If we tell people they have to be perfect, like guys that want to go on a mission
31:08
or before somebody can get married or to get a calling.
31:11
And if we say you haven't done this have you
31:14
whatever it is or how long has it been since you've looked at porn
31:16
and then if the person doesn't answer it correctly then they're gonna
31:19
they're gonna feel a tremendous amount of shame so if the
31:22
person isn't going to get help then they just start to say okay i just need
31:27
to say i'm i'm okay and i'll figure it out later and so then that person will
31:31
get praised and then they will get to move up the chain or they get to go on
31:34
the mission or whatever and then if somebody's saying oh i'm struggling then
31:37
it's like then you you, you don't get to go.
31:40
So I think I was starting to tell you that. And then I was looking more into
31:43
the concept of differentiation where every single thing is actually a me issue in a good way.
31:47
And then, uh, and then I started thinking in terms of, I've been talking about the concept of a muse.
31:51
So then any interaction, any
31:52
situation like this very thing that we're talking about became my muse.
31:56
It became the thing that, that caused me to reflect and on myself.
32:01
And so even while I had this narrative created that you did not care about me,
32:05
Kurt, I was like, like, but doggone it, I'm okay.
32:08
So now it's really funny to look at that because it was something where I would
32:12
find myself wanting to get down, but I feel like I've got enough reps in now where in the...
32:19
I am okay though. And I'm disappointed because, man, I like Kurt.
32:22
And does this mean we're not going to be able to hang anymore?
32:25
So, then I would go down that path and I'm like, I would come back to the present and I am okay.
32:28
But that concept of being differentiated or so if this relationship with God,
32:32
that then it does become a me thing.
32:35
If all of a sudden, if I'm feeling like, wait, now he doesn't like me today
32:39
and he does like me tomorrow, but he loves you all the time.
32:42
So, it is a me thing when I feel like he doesn't.
32:45
So, then it's like, why doesn't he? Oh, because I'm down. i'm
32:48
sad yeah yeah and here's a little another dynamic that
32:52
happens in all this in the last couple chapters of the book i talked about this
32:54
concept of grace for grace like once we are able
32:57
we sort of have make this a practice of receiving god's grace
33:00
and receiving his validation as the one true and only source where we can get
33:04
that personal validation once we receive grace we're more enabled to give grace
33:10
okay right and so it can i see what you're saying you're saying i was being
33:13
a baby is what you're saying well and and i get into this place too like when
33:16
i'm having a a hard time giving grace instead of, I don't ask like,
33:20
how can I give more? How can I, how can I forgive Kurt more?
33:23
Like this is kind of ridiculous. And then you're sort of beating yourself up that way.
33:26
You can instead reframe it to say, where am I like not receiving God's grace?
33:31
Cause maybe I'm holding him accountable for the same things I'm holding myself
33:36
accountable for. That's good.
33:37
Oh, it is because now I want to go back and look at the text because I really did.
33:41
It's so funny. I love being this open and vulnerable, even if I may never air it.
33:46
But because toward the end when I knew you were coming out here and
33:49
we weren't going to be here because the storm that was supposedly coming
33:52
in I really did that's why I reached back out and I just said hey
33:55
great book or hope you have a great time or something whatever I said that was super nice
33:58
you know putting that out there because I
34:01
think it is that concept of what you said was once I realized this is a me
34:03
issue and Kurt's a great guy and and
34:06
if I'm not being excited about his book oh my
34:09
gosh I will not feel good about that because the book is
34:12
really good and he is is a great guy and so obviously
34:15
there's something a publisher much it must have
34:18
accidentally left the pages off or something that was
34:22
it is that what it was yeah i'll check with my printer and
34:26
there's a sheet down on the floor and
34:29
it's like how did this thing get out there right yeah okay um but
34:32
honestly the how long has it taken you to write the book so
34:35
it was like four years okay i've always sort of been just working at
34:39
it yeah a few minutes or an hour here and there and yeah and over four years
34:44
i got it done okay which is kind of a normal process i learned from a lot of
34:47
people yeah yeah especially i mean the editing and yeah like five copy editors
34:53
did it yeah i made a lot of mistakes but they fixed them did they find them
34:56
all have you found any since it's been printed.
34:58
Not yet. I'm sure somebody will find one. I realize with my own ADHD,
35:03
I want to blame it on that or laziness.
35:05
But when my book about addiction was going to the whatever, the galleys,
35:09
whatever, all the words they were, that then I was supposed to look it over
35:12
and then it would go to this professional person. So I just thought,
35:15
well, then I don't really need to look it over.
35:17
And then it's out. It's had some typos in it now. So that's fun.
35:20
But as far as the, how's the reception been? What's it been like?
35:24
Because you've interviewed so many people about that have these big positions in church.
35:28
Yeah sure yeah i mean it's been seems to be very well received and now that
35:32
people are reading it and feedback and but yeah it's great yeah so from a validation
35:36
standpoint do you feel like there is i want to know what that's like that dynamic
35:40
where the more you become aware of this dynamic,
35:43
the more you can point out and be like there it is right because there's those
35:47
moments where and this is kind of a tactic i use to work through this is i mean
35:53
it's because it's the wrong Wrong way to go is then we're like, well, Tony,
35:56
we're seeing this validation. Why don't we just shut down our podcast?
35:59
Right. Yes. Change our name and go into the witness protection program.
36:03
Nobody knows where we're at because that then you don't have to.
36:05
But at the same time, like God created us to do something remarkable.
36:10
Let our light so shine, apparently. Right.
36:13
What's the source of that light is God. Yeah. Right. So whenever those moments
36:16
come, I'm like, dang, I'm a big deal.
36:19
Right. Like I'm changing lives and they need me in Sacramento.
36:22
I better go out there and make it happen. Right. I often remind myself,
36:25
isn't this beautiful how God's
36:27
glory is being made manifest through my work. And it's all his glory.
36:30
He could take it away tomorrow. Yeah, absolutely.
36:33
But this is God's glory. my name's on the
36:36
front of the book but he created me and god don't make
36:39
junk as they say i like that a lot actually do you
36:42
i i'm there now i want to say do you know of
36:45
what i've said kurt about the healthy ego but that's i'm wanting
36:48
you to validate me like crazy oh yes oh well tell
36:51
me your favorite part of that we met podcast
36:54
about where we did yeah we did we
36:57
did yeah and how we can't you know oh how dare you actually
36:59
have a good answer to that okay because it
37:02
takes a certain level of ego and narcissism to
37:05
actually create a podcast like we've done sure and maybe just
37:08
let's stick with the ego yeah no no
37:13
keep going no no that's it well where
37:16
i'm going with that is the healthy ego the reason why i talk about that so often
37:19
and i'm looking up here because so healthy ego if i go right to the source there's
37:24
an article about ironically narcissism from elodore greenberg called the truth
37:28
about narcissistic personality disorder and i really want to share this with
37:31
you because I took it, that's why I'm giving her the credit.
37:35
And I took this concept that she talked about, about healthy narcissism versus defensive narcissism.
37:39
And I remember being at a training once when I used to work for the church and
37:43
somebody had talked about Jesus having a healthy ego.
37:46
And they said, Jesus, Buddha, Gandhi, Mother Teresa, that they had to have a
37:49
healthy ego in order to put themselves out there to change the world.
37:52
And I just, I thought that was so powerful, but my own immaturity or insecurity
37:57
was so strong that I think the first time I mentioned it on a a podcast was
38:00
episode like 10 or 20 and I'm at four.
38:04
50 or something now. And I remember when I put it out there,
38:06
I thought, oh, people are going to think that's really bad that I said Jesus had an ego.
38:10
But then the normal healthy narcissism, which is back when narcissism wasn't
38:15
always viewed as what it is, which I understand, because I've got my whole Waking
38:19
Up to Narcissism podcast.
38:20
I really think it's more about there's a tiny percentage of people that have
38:23
narcissistic personality disorder, but we're all emotionally immature until we grow.
38:27
But when you hear this, I took her definition and I,
38:30
instead of saying say narcissism i'm just going to say ego so it's a realistic
38:33
sense of positive self-regard that's based on the person's actual accomplishments
38:36
it's relatively stable because the person has assimilated it
38:39
into their self-image the successes that came as a
38:42
result of their actual hard work to overcome real life obstacles because it's
38:45
based on real achievements normal healthy egos is relatively impervious
38:49
to the minor slights and setbacks that we all experience as
38:51
we go through life normal ego or healthy ego causes us
38:54
to care about ourselves do things that are in our real self-interest and associated
38:57
with self-respect one can think of it as something that's inside
39:00
of us i i really i like having you on
39:03
here we talk a little more spiritual sometimes i feel like that it's inside
39:06
of us help the ego based on real life accomplishments then it's when
39:09
we can really tap into the our god-given talents and abilities and
39:12
then start to really lean into those that maybe that's
39:15
where the light so shines yeah so my ego is firing up here to step forward i'm
39:19
gonna adjust this that's how much ego i'm feeling this i would say that this
39:23
is a realistic sense of positive self-regard that is based on a person's actual
39:28
identity tell me more divine identity this is so there's this that the game
39:33
we often play is that we're.
39:35
Oftentimes we're living for an identity yeah I can just if I can be Bishop Frankenblum
39:41
yes I don't like this rather than living from an identity that God gave us that
39:46
is why I love our theology.
39:47
So much is that we literally are invited to go to a house of the Lord to be
39:52
endowed from on high with an identity for his identity that he's given us to be made revealed.
39:56
And when we're living from that identity, that's healthy ego because it's God's ego.
40:00
And then that's when it's not so much of like, I need to live for that identity
40:06
of seeing my name in the book as living from the identity and that peace that God made me as I am.
40:11
He endowed me with an identity and I'm happy to to step into whatever podcast
40:16
platform online, offline that he has for me and knowing that he'll strengthen
40:21
my skills and abilities to accomplish a great work to manifest his glory.
40:25
Yeah. And then now throw in that concept of differentiation.
40:27
And if I can accept the fact that it is all a me thing, that then I am doing
40:31
these things to learn more about myself and it is going to be uncomfortable.
40:35
And I am because this whole experience that we're joking about so much today,
40:39
I've learned, I'm glad that it turned out to be, you're not a horrible person. That really helps.
40:44
Or it's just going to be like a Jerry Springer show. A throwback, right? Exactly, yeah.
40:50
But I like that because it helps me learn something about myself.
40:53
So then I always want to make the joke that the very next time that somebody
40:56
this close to me writes a book and doesn't mention me and I don't check my Marco
41:00
Polos, then I'll know exactly how to handle it.
41:03
That would be good. But that isn't the point, right? It's not like it happens every day. No, no.
41:07
It's every couple weeks or so. So, I do want to throw, and I like what you're
41:10
saying about identity because then I think part of that acceptance is that accepting
41:13
that it is a process and it's an act that we talk about.
41:18
If you are living through values that you have basically been given,
41:23
which we all start from there, but then you don't feel like that really is who
41:27
I am, then you're living this life of social compliance.
41:30
And they talk about socially compliant goals.
41:32
And so if I'm doing something because I think I'm supposed to or I'm doing it
41:35
for somebody else, then my motivation is going to be pretty weak and ineffective
41:38
because it goes against my process of becoming or my process of unfolding.
41:43
And so that's what I like about where, okay, if my goal is to figure out this
41:46
God-given identity and the only way I can do it is by doing and being,
41:51
interacting and having these experiences because all of them apparently are going to be for my good.
41:55
So I heard and I believe that now. A lot of times it's in hindsight.
41:59
I love that. that identity is going to continually evolve.
42:03
And so, and I, tell me if you see this, I see often when couples are struggling
42:07
that somebody is saying, okay, but he or she, but they've changed.
42:11
This isn't who I married. And that's where I often say, well, that's, that's okay.
42:14
We're all changing. Yeah. Hopefully. Hopefully. Yeah. Yeah. But a lot of times
42:18
people that change is scary because it comes with a bunch of uncertainty. Yeah. Right.
42:23
Nothing comes to mind. I know. I was sitting there like, I have talked a lot
42:26
about Kurt's, not talking about Kurt's book.
42:29
No, that's great. We've touched on all sorts of things. So then let me just
42:33
mention there, because while it's up there, the opposite of the normal healthy
42:36
narcissism, I would love your take on this. Okay.
42:38
Because I think that now this is one where it jumps right into pathological defensive narcissism.
42:42
But then when I throw emotional immaturity around this, man,
42:46
I feel like this is one that can really hit people hard if they're willing to own up to things.
42:51
Because I think once you find your ego or your identity,
42:55
part of what comes with that is that, oh, now that I realize I know the things
42:59
I know because they're my experiences and it's things that I have learned or
43:04
they are important to me, it's a little easier to then admit to the things you don't know.
43:09
And this is where I start talking about the things we don't know that we don't know.
43:12
Because once I recognize, oh, now I understand more about these things that
43:15
are important to me and I'm finding my identity or ego, then I know I didn't
43:19
even know this was the direction I would go. So that means there's going to
43:21
be more things I don't know that I don't know.
43:23
So it leaves me more curious. It leaves me not as defensive.
43:26
So the pathological defense of narcissism, this Eleanor Greenberg says,
43:29
this is a defense against the feelings of inferiority.
43:32
The person dons a mask of arrogant superiority in an attempt to convince the
43:35
world that he or she is special.
43:37
Inside, the person feels very insecure about his or her actual self-worth.
43:41
And this facade of superiority is so thin that it's like a helium balloon.
43:45
One small pinprick will deflate it. This makes a person hypersensitive to
43:48
minor slights that somebody with healthy ego wouldn't even notice and
43:51
since somebody with this type of defensive narcissism is easily wounded they
43:55
frequently take any form of disagreement a serious criticism and
43:58
they're likely to lash out and devalue anybody who they think is
44:00
disagreeing with them they're constantly on guard trying to protect their
44:03
status it can be thought as a protective armor on the outside of
44:06
us what does that bring up yeah and that's what strikes me is that in the defensive
44:12
narcissism she's focused on identity where that's not it seems like in the healthy
44:16
narcissism she's more focused on on behavior so So that's why I made that tweet
44:20
where this is a quest for that defensive narcissism.
44:24
He, he or she is living for an identity.
44:27
Yeah. Like I've got to, I've got to make sure that this, cause this protects
44:30
me of that feeling of inferiority. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how to reconcile that feeling.
44:34
Yeah. And so, and what I appreciate that is because then this is where we start.
44:39
And I know we did this on the podcast with you where I was talking about narcissism
44:43
and emotional immaturity and leadership, because then it doesn't leave room
44:47
for somebody else's opinion because then And if you have a different opinion,
44:50
then the immature thinks that, oh, so you think I'm wrong.
44:53
It's all that black or white thinking. That's a threat of being inferior.
44:56
Yeah, yeah. And now throw that invalidation piece in there too.
45:00
And now the person is going to lash out to defend their fragile ego.
45:04
Here's something I've been thinking about lately. And I want you to tell,
45:06
you can yeah about it. You can tell me I'm wrong.
45:08
Okay. But when I've been preparing for the, oh, I don't think I even finished the story.
45:11
So you have never told me not to come out and do this fireside,
45:13
but I not followed up on doing the fireside. And so therefore,
45:17
my first thought when you were now.
45:19
The evil person was that, hey, why hasn't Kurt followed up with me on that fireside
45:25
or that podcast on Leading Saints?
45:27
Oh, because that's my job to follow up with him because I never answered more
45:32
questions about what I thought about it.
45:34
So then I realized I had to take ownership of that. So that was kind of funny. Gotcha.
45:37
But on this concept, though, if the defense of narcissism or the ego defense,
45:41
I will be editing this part out because I lost my train of thought.
45:43
I really want to find it again. You're sharing something that I may say,
45:46
yeah, but. Okay. Yes. Yes.
45:48
So, I was going into this differentiation piece again.
45:52
So, the curiosity, I think that needs to be, it needs to just be everywhere.
45:59
So, I find that maybe, let's say a Sunday school class and somebody brings up
46:03
a scripture or this is something that they think somebody's quote means this.
46:07
Instead of, I feel like so often, instead of somebody else saying,
46:09
oh, tell me more and I want to hear you.
46:12
I want to know why that's what your interpretation of that scripture or that quote is.
46:15
Then somebody else says well actually i think it means this and
46:19
so now we're getting defensive and so instead of
46:22
i i really feel like the scriptures themselves are these muses
46:25
these things that we interact with and they can mean a
46:28
different thing whenever we approach them based on where we're
46:30
at in our life but i feel so often instead of
46:33
looking at it that way somebody then if they're coming from this unhealthy
46:36
ego then it's the oh so you
46:39
think i'm wrong with what i think it means and i'm
46:42
never saying no it's your experience yeah who am i
46:45
to tell you you're experience or your thoughts or feelings are wrong right but
46:48
i think that happens a lot right right because we're talking
46:50
about the context of the scripture because we feel like there's a certain way
46:54
like these are founded in truth yeah they don't change so there's a one way
47:00
to interpret this scripture when in reality god is inviting us to step in and
47:03
he'll show us he'll come to us in all sorts of ways in scriptures outside the
47:06
scripture absolutely and there's not you don't have to.
47:09
And sometimes we get mixed up with this quest to be the college professor that
47:12
can talk about scripture. Because we'll get validated. Because we'll get validation.
47:15
And that was so difficult for me. You know, when I talk about stages of faith,
47:18
when I was teaching seminary, I always thought, well, if I teach seminary,
47:21
then I will learn these scriptures like the back of my hand.
47:24
And I'll finally be that person that can speak confidently and eloquently about them.
47:27
But I never was because at that point, well, undiagnosed ADHD.
47:32
And I felt like that was one of those concepts where then I felt like that I wasn't enough.
47:36
I was never going to be like these people then that could quote scripture and
47:40
verse because I'd spent years now teaching, but not realizing that the years
47:44
teaching were actually the opportunity
47:45
for me to get to know how to teach in my own way, my own voice.
47:49
So that was amazing when I realized, oh, that's it. It's not so that I can become
47:54
this other person that I think I'm supposed to be like you're saying.
47:56
I was chasing identity. I was. Yeah.
48:00
Fascinating. Yeah. I need to ask you more questions, Kurt.
48:03
What's the best thing when we get together we just have a great discussion what
48:06
are you doing what are you doing with the wheelbarrows full of money that you've made
48:09
from your book oh well i'm investing it in anything your
48:13
your next book okay okay i was
48:15
gonna joke and say man i i my experience so far with the publishing industry
48:20
is apparently that is not the way that we get no i'm just praying for breaking
48:24
even right if we can get to there maybe i'll write another book tell me about
48:27
this fireside you know you know what i know because because i'm hoping Hoping
48:30
that you get sick and don't get to do it. And then people will hear this.
48:33
It will have already happened.
48:34
This is so fun. We covered all kinds of stuff. We're back. We're boys. Well-rounded podcast.
48:38
Yeah. But it'll probably be the least amount of interview on your book that
48:43
you will probably do in your podcast tour.
48:46
Yeah, but you taught me half of this. Oh, boy.
48:50
Even though I didn't give you credit for it.
48:53
Now it's there, it's out. That's right.
48:56
Kurt Francom, what a joy. Thanks, man. We're pals again.
48:59
Again we are the band's back together even though you never knew we weren't that's
49:03
right that's a surprise for you don't let that happen again tony
49:06
i will i will never i will
49:09
never abandon my friend tony because god will never abandon me okay you want
49:12
me to tell you a funny thing though then we'll wrap it up okay i was complaining
49:15
a little bit about this maybe this on my intern nate christensen is awesome
49:18
he's been on the podcast a bunch i think that nate would freak out if he when
49:22
he hears this part where i'm like you should have nate on leading saints because
49:24
he's like no but he's got a great story but then i was just talking about it
49:27
and we were in clinical supervision.
49:29
So I'm supposed to be helping him, but I'm giving him this example of real life
49:32
and how immature a person like myself can be.
49:35
But he just said, okay, let me start this hypothetical. He said,
49:38
what if all of a sudden...
49:40
Somebody came to you and they said, okay, you can no longer do a podcast or
49:44
talk to anybody again, or else I'll do something nefarious to your entire family.
49:48
And you knew that they really could do it.
49:49
I was like, oh, I disappear and nobody would ever hear from me again.
49:52
Oh, so maybe Kurt, maybe the mafia or the mob told Kurt, like you can't ever put Tony in anything.
49:58
Yeah. So is that maybe what happened?
50:01
No. But you couldn't tell me if it was. Right.
50:05
Well, then I'd have to prove it to you by having you on the Leading Saints podcast again.
50:09
Again oh yeah so let's do that okay maybe they gave you one out that you could
50:13
do that that was my whole goal that was the whole reason i threw that so there
50:19
you heard it folks i will be,
50:21
still recurring your way on the podcast again at least two
50:24
more times okay and i will i will demand
50:27
double my fee yes okay okay because
50:31
that is nothing all right kurt franklin thank you
50:33
i would shake your hand but you've you're very sick i'm hacking and i'm
50:36
already too close i should should be wearing a mask very close exactly oh
50:40
find your book though for real on amazon yeah amazon is there yeah and
50:44
select costco's along the wasatch front really arizona okay idaho
50:48
utah i think a few in california but yeah but yeah but desert book is not yet
50:53
validated me really i'm sure that i'm sure they will that's what's that like
50:57
for you it's been hard well i'm sort of like come on guys you know let's do
51:00
this but it's fine that they're on their own timetable and it'll sell what it
51:05
needs to sell regardless of who validates it.
51:07
Yeah, and honestly, I know, I will tell you, get the book, please.
51:11
It is really good. As I was fast and really reading it, then I did notice some
51:16
really good points and I did go back in and slow, happily read it later.
51:20
And I can't wait to do that again. Oh, I saw you, the audio book is out as well?
51:23
Yeah. Who read it? Me. How was that? I know, I should have asked you to read
51:27
it. Oh my gosh, I didn't even think about that.
51:28
Now it is? No, when we did our book, we hired people too.
51:32
And i wish i would have done it was that a
51:35
crazy process maddening process easy process it was
51:38
easy really um yeah i mean the guy i
51:41
worked with i actually recorded everything just at my you know
51:44
because i do a podcast so yeah equipment yeah i just read it and sent it to
51:49
him he fixed you know any mess ups or had me reread a few parts or and it was
51:53
slick easy peasy do you listen to a lot of audiobooks yourself oh yeah same
51:56
do you ever get the ones where you can hear this person's like like nasal breathing
51:59
or they're like with their mouth or anything.
52:01
Or you can tell when they like called it a day, suddenly they have like a morning voice or something.
52:07
And they're like, Hey, did you get sick all of a sudden?
52:10
Okay. All right, Kurt, go and do and be, and we'll talk to you next time.
52:13
Thanks for joining me on the virtual.
52:15
Music.