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Matthew Chapters 14-15 Q&A: Bible Study by Atheists · Sacrilegious Discourse - Bible Study for Atheists

0:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Wait, I'm so excited.
0:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you know what we're doing today?
0:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm pretty sure we're not doing a regular episode.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We're not.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So what are we doing today?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Q&A.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's not Saturday.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's okay.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because I'm here with lots of really good information.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I think instead of doing just one, we're going to end up doing
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[SPEAKER_00]: two-parter again.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
0:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
0:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm fucking new testament.
0:26
[SPEAKER_01]: It is a bit much.
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[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's a lot of things we've got to cover and a lot of unfortunate social relevance that we have to address.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And history also.
0:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I shouldn't say unfortunate.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's unfortunate in the way it's being used currently by certain groups of people.
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[SPEAKER_00]: the right by the right.
0:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
0:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The right is weapon.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I was trying to be vague and allow for us, you know, others to interpret themselves.
0:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I don't believe in vague.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, heart on the table, the right is weaponized.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Those fuckers, you know, the ones that had a UFC fight tonight at the White House as we're recording terrible.
1:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, anyway, enough about that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm assuming you have some good stuff for us.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And you should assume it because I said it, um, we are covering today Q&A for Matthew little Maddie chapters 14 and 15 and then part two will cover little Maddie chapter 16.
1:28
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
1:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you ready to get into this?
1:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
1:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Fuck him.
1:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's do it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: All right, we are hopping into the Q&A for Little Maddie chapters 14 and 15.
1:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
1:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
1:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:46
[SPEAKER_00]: First of all, chapter 14, and he said, is one of the most famous chapters in the gospel of Matthew.
1:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
1:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it contains the execution of John the Baptist, John the Baptist loses his fucking head.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He does.
2:02
[SPEAKER_00]: He does.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
2:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't feel like I got enough information about John the Baptist.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't either.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But we'll find out a little bit more.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
2:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I have some details for you.
2:11
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
2:11
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why I was excited to hop into that.
2:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Got it.
2:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
2:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
2:15
[SPEAKER_00]: We also get the feeding of the 5,000 with.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
2:19
[SPEAKER_00]: That's, you know, huge.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Apparently it was big magic that nobody recorded.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then forgotten later.
2:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
2:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
2:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Spoiler alert.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We get Jesus walking on water with also a big deal.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We get Peter briefly walking on water.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I feel a little bit.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
2:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And then we get more healings and stuff.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, magic.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But it's it's a big deal in so far as this chapter's big news.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's also a chapter where Matthew emphasizes two specific themes.
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[SPEAKER_00]: the political power of hered versus prophetic truth in John.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
2:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to elucity on that a little bit.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
3:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And then we also get fear and doubt versus faith.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And both of those are from the disciples.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
3:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
3:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Those are the two big themes of this chapter.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
3:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But before we talk about that, let me reread verses one and two real quick.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
3:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_00]: At that time, Harid the Tetraq heard the reports about Jesus and he said to his attendance, fuck, this is John the Baptist.
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[SPEAKER_00]: He has risen from the dead.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Fuck.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That is why miraculous powers are at work in him.
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[SPEAKER_01]: My name's Fuck.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, mine is a fuck, yeah.
3:38
[SPEAKER_00]: So we've got so much to unload here.
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[SPEAKER_00]: First of all, hair the Ted Turk.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We were like, what's the Ted Turk?
3:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And why no, he's not the original hair red.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that's something I forgot.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Um, this is the son of Herod the Great.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And Herod the Great was the guy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Remember when Jesus was just not yet born and then he was being born.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And Herod wanted the the senses.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so Joseph was like, oh, let's settle in this city.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Wait, no, let's go to that city instead.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
4:09
[SPEAKER_01]: He was going to kill all the other two year olds.
4:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That was, um, that was Herid.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The great.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So the Herid, the tetrarch, this is his son, Herid and Tippus.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
4:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And also remember when Herid, the great died, he gave land to his three sons.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that's a big deal because remember Joseph settled in one of the, I can't remember which brother, but he settled in one of the brothers that was like less likely to give him up.
4:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
4:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Or maybe Philip and not Arcalayas is what I meant to say.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Got it.
4:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
4:55
[SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, so we've got Herod and Tippus, the son of Herod the Great.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
5:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And he was the king with the nativity stories.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And the other two, as I said, are Arcalayas and Philip.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
5:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's not extraneous details on giving you.
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[SPEAKER_00]: This is important.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
5:14
[SPEAKER_00]: So Herod, the tetrarch is in Tippus.
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[SPEAKER_00]: and his brothers are Archolius and Philip, okay.
5:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And here it and Philip, go at it with each other.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, they are at arms with each other and it's over a woman and it's a big deal, okay.
5:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but we're not there yet.
5:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, we're not there yet.
5:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I just wanted to give you information so that you would understand that I'm not just dropping names to try to like muddy the waters.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It actually matters.
5:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
5:49
[SPEAKER_00]: But let's talk what the fuck is a tetrarc?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
5:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
5:52
[SPEAKER_00]: That word signifies a person who rules over the fourth part of a country.
5:58
[SPEAKER_00]: So I was wrong.
6:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought tetrar was three, but it's not, it's four.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But because there weren't three sons, they only divided the land into three.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So the word became more in a general sense by Jewish writers.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Just to mean, regardless of the number is just kind of a governor or a king or just a leader of ruler.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not gonna stay and where does the four come in here at all?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Tetrarck used to mean when lands were divided into four pieces.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_00]: A Tetrarck would have been the ruler over a fourth piece, a quarter.
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[SPEAKER_00]: A Tetrarck was a quarter.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So the word has different meaning.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Now, they're using it differently than what was originally intended for what you're saying.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Correct.
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[SPEAKER_01]: OK, sorry.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't following what you were getting out there.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because when we were reading this, I was like, oh, Tetra, that must be a three.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm saying that I was wrong.
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[SPEAKER_01]: OK, it was originally I just, like I said, I just didn't follow that's all.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Got it.
7:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So, um, by Jesus' day, the word had just become, now let's not worry about, it's not three.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's not four.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's just a ruler.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Got it.
7:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
7:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And, um, it's just a general title for a minor regional ruler.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Got it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that's, that's what it's like a mayor or governor or something.
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[SPEAKER_00]: More like a governor than a mayor, I would say, because, again, Harry's lamb was split into three pieces of which hered the tetrarch and tipus got one, okay?
7:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's the guy that we're dealing with currently, okay?
7:40
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the hered we're dealing with.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
7:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So the estates of Herod the Great were not at his death divided into four tetrarkeys, but only into three.
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[SPEAKER_00]: One was given by the Emperor Augustus to Arcoleus, the second to Herod and Tippus.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's our guy.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And the third to Philip.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They're all three Herod the Great sons.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_00]: He was not, Harriet was not, Harriet and Tippus was not a king.
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[SPEAKER_00]: He was just a Roman client ruler governing Galilee under Roman authority.
8:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So his title sounded bigger than it was.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, but that's what a touch arc is.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's just a ruler.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, if you're a governor, kind of guy.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Um, then we get to the part where he's like, whoa, this is John the Baptist risen from the dead.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Whoa, what the fuck?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that sounded very jeezy or something.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, he's hearing these rumors of Jesus and he's like, fuck me.
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[SPEAKER_00]: This must be this, uh, this Jesus guy must be
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[SPEAKER_00]: the reincarnation of John the Baptist who might just had killed, okay?
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's how this was interpretive?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, okay.
9:01
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's a few things here, and I'm gonna get into that in a minute, okay?
9:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
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[SPEAKER_00]: More about I had John the Baptist killed.
9:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot to that, and it's very interesting.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
9:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But let's just talk about he is risen from the dead.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Whoa, and it must be
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[SPEAKER_00]: Um, Jesus.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it must be John.
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[SPEAKER_00]: This Jesus guy that I'm hearing about must be John.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Got it.
9:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
9:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
9:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So from that statement itself, we can tell that the resurrection of the dead was a common opinion held among the Jews at that time.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They just believe people.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's interesting.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Because of the phrasing like he's it's not a surprise that
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[SPEAKER_00]: Jesus is not a surprise that John the Baptist has risen from the dead or is reincarnating somebody.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's not the surprise.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The surprise is God damn it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm being hunted by my guilt because I just had this guy killed and he's back to haunt me doing the same things that John the Baptist was doing, that's how I know it's John the Baptist.
10:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But that lie in there in John her and Matthew.
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[SPEAKER_01]: chapter 14, kind of undercuts a lot of the whole Jesus story.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It does because they were already predisposed to believe that that kind of thing was commonplace.
10:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
10:25
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's interesting that I got that it's in there.
10:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I guess they didn't really when they wrote this initially, they didn't really know that Jesus was going to become the Jesus of Jesus.
10:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like he's this is a new thing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so this wasn't really this is just how it was seen back then.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like to us, we're looking back thinking that that's the big deal.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And for them, they're like, what people rise all the time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because silliness, because magic, because there is miracles in every corner.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
10:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Jesus, Jesus, and demons, people healing, people getting raised from the dead.
10:59
[SPEAKER_00]: What?
10:59
[SPEAKER_00]: This is calm days.
11:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that's something that's easy to overlook.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
11:05
[SPEAKER_00]: You read the way it's phrased and you're like, oh, he wasn't, he wasn't upset about the fact that it was happening.
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[SPEAKER_00]: He was upset about why it was happening.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what I
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[SPEAKER_00]: grasp.
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[SPEAKER_01]: No, that's really enlightening.
11:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that's that's interesting.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and when you find out like why he had John the Baptist killed and all of that, it makes it even more like it reads almost like a fucking Hamlet kind of Shakespearean thing.
11:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
11:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
11:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
11:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So, which I mean, that's probably where Shakespeare drew a lot of his inspiration, I would imagine.
11:47
[SPEAKER_00]: But, ancient Jews held a variety of beliefs about resurrection, spirits, and holy men returning from the dead.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So, again, this shit was just everyday occurrences.
11:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
11:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like we missed some really important lead-up in that 300 years.
12:00
[SPEAKER_01]: It's missing between the macabees and this.
12:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
12:03
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, the 400 years of silence?
12:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, yeah.
12:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
12:08
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of cultural changes that have happened that this version of Judaism, that's occurring during Jesus' time, their beliefs are so dramatically different than what they were during the Old Testament times.
12:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
12:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And we saw that it was starting to happen.
12:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
12:30
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, that 400 years of silence really fucked us historically as far as understanding
12:35
[SPEAKER_00]: how it changed.
12:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Because it's a hard transition to, and especially looking at it 2000 years on, it's a hard transition to go from the old testament to this, and interpret it in a way that makes sense based on what was happening at the time because you're talking about two dramatically different time periods, and you're also talking about,
12:55
[SPEAKER_01]: much more modern and propagandized speech that's being used generally versus what was being done before.
13:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
13:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Not that it wasn't propaganda back then, too.
13:05
[SPEAKER_00]: But it was different.
13:07
[SPEAKER_01]: It was different.
13:07
[SPEAKER_00]: It was different.
13:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Who was saying it and why might have been equivalent, but not the same still?
13:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, it's just like there's so much to untangle here.
13:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
13:18
[SPEAKER_00]: It's what I keep saying.
13:18
[SPEAKER_00]: It's really hard to read the New Testament and context of we've got how today is using it versus how Matthew was using it versus what might have actually been intended in the Bible versus what actually happened historically.
13:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
13:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Four different layers just makes it so difficult to untangle.
13:36
[SPEAKER_01]: right, but you know, just take it on faith.
13:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
13:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
13:40
[SPEAKER_00]: So Matthew is portraying this whole event.
13:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
13:45
[SPEAKER_00]: That he's writing about, you know, after Jesus' death long after he's portraying this as the guilty conscious of a man who knows he murdered a righteous prophet.
13:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and again, I'm going to get into that murder of John the Baptist because we didn't get the whole story.
14:03
[SPEAKER_00]: There's more historical relevance here.
14:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, and the ghost haunting here it isn't literally John is here it's guilt.
14:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, that's very Shakespearean so hamlet.
14:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, I just like I got chills.
14:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, oh, that's a great story, actually.
14:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
14:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Hamlet talking about the murder of his father and then going through everything that he goes through and having to face up to his uncle and his mom marrying his uncle.
14:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Like that is so fucking that's the story.
14:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I just get chills when I'm thinking about it.
14:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I'm sorry.
14:49
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, and then we get the phrase for her heriradiasis sake.
14:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
14:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's where some bitch, Ray is dancing at his party, his birthday, and for her sake, he has John's head brought in on a platter.
15:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
15:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
15:08
[SPEAKER_00]: That's where I'm about to break this down.
15:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
15:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
15:12
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the story.
15:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
15:13
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what this chapter really hinges on.
15:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Got it.
15:17
[SPEAKER_00]: So Herodias was the daughter of Aristobulus and Bernice, which, who the fuck are those people?
15:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, but she was also the granddaughter of Herod the Great.
15:33
[SPEAKER_01]: What?
15:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Because, yeah.
15:37
[SPEAKER_01]: This got weird real quick.
15:38
[SPEAKER_00]: This got weird real quick.
15:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
15:40
[SPEAKER_00]: So she is one of
15:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Herod the greets, granddaughters, okay?
15:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
15:49
[SPEAKER_00]: So like one of his daughters had a child who is herodious, okay?
15:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And she, her first marriage was two brother Philip.
16:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
16:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, you said this is original Herod's granddaughter.
16:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
16:09
[SPEAKER_01]: That means a child of Herod, which also... No, no, a grandchild of Herod the grand.
16:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm...
16:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm getting there.
16:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
16:20
[SPEAKER_01]: A child of Herod had this child, right?
16:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Had what child?
16:25
[SPEAKER_01]: The one that's dancing in the party.
16:26
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
16:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought you said it was the granddaughter of Herod the Great.
16:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
16:32
[SPEAKER_01]: If that would be in the child of her at the great had this child, it's the child of child.
16:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
16:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I see what you're seeing.
16:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Actually, Herodias wasn't the one dancing at the party.
16:43
[SPEAKER_00]: It was her daughter dancing at the party.
16:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh.
16:47
[SPEAKER_00]: So great granddaughter, Salome.
16:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Great, grand, okay.
16:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
16:53
[SPEAKER_01]: But very close relation.
16:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes to this king person or whatever the fuck.
16:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, Philip and all of these three sons.
17:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that got land from here.
17:05
[SPEAKER_00]: The great those are her uncles.
17:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
17:08
[SPEAKER_00]: There are all three her uncles fucking weird.
17:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
17:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So she marries one of them.
17:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Phillip.
17:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
17:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And that, she had salamé.
17:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
17:17
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why I was telling you, it's not just name dropping.
17:20
[SPEAKER_00]: It's important that we understand these three brothers.
17:23
[SPEAKER_01]: So she had a child with Phillip.
17:25
[SPEAKER_01]: With Phillip.
17:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Which is this child that's dancing.
17:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
17:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And Phillip is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is,
17:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm not there yet.
17:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I'm just, this is a lot of it says.
17:40
[SPEAKER_00]: This is a lot of incest.
17:42
[SPEAKER_01]: So, okay.
17:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so, so let's talk about Herodias.
17:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
17:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Granddaughter of Herod the Great.
17:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
17:48
[SPEAKER_00]: She gets married to her uncle Philip.
17:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay?
17:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
17:51
[SPEAKER_00]: By choice or not, I don't know, but they have salami.
17:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
17:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Sometime after that, she leaves Philip.
17:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Fuck you Philip, I'm out.
17:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
17:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
18:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And then she goes and lives publicly with Antipus, her brother-in-law and uncle.
18:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
18:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
18:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
18:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Who is that's our guy.
18:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
18:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
18:11
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the mean character.
18:13
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
18:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
18:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry.
18:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I got it.
18:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And um and Tippus had been married at that time to the daughter of the King of Arabia.
18:26
[SPEAKER_00]: King of Arabia, Petraia, he'd been married to his daughter, Eradis, okay?
18:35
[SPEAKER_00]: This is kind of important because it's like a side note, and it's interesting.
18:40
[SPEAKER_00]: So, it's soon as Eradis understood that hold on, hold on, hold on, okay.
18:55
[SPEAKER_00]: uh the pet the tetrarch.
18:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
18:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
18:58
[SPEAKER_00]: He's married to this daughter of erotos king of Arabia.
19:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
19:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
19:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Whatever her name is.
19:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
19:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Now as soon as the king of Arabia, I'm just going to call him king of Arabia.
19:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
19:11
[SPEAKER_00]: King of Arabia finds out.
19:13
[SPEAKER_00]: that Herod and Tippus is dumping his daughter.
19:16
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, oh hell no.
19:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And not only is he dumping her daughter, he's dumping her for his own grand, uh, niece for his own niece.
19:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
19:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
19:27
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, you nasty, you a son of a bitch.
19:30
[SPEAKER_00]: You jilt in my daughter like that.
19:32
[SPEAKER_00]: The King of Arabia's pissed.
19:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
19:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Um.
19:36
[SPEAKER_00]: He makes war on Herod eventually.
19:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
19:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And the two armies meet and Herod gets caught to pieces.
19:44
[SPEAKER_00]: His army is dawned by the Herobians.
19:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
19:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is believed to be a judgment of God on Herod and tipus, the tetrarch for the murder of John the Baptist.
19:57
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's actually a judgment on his marion choices.
20:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Well,
20:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Hold on.
20:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm getting there.
20:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm getting there.
20:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
20:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
20:06
[SPEAKER_00]: And then a few years after that, just more side note that's just interesting, not important, but interesting.
20:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
20:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Herodias, you know, his niece, sister and law that he, you know, now is like,
20:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know, our guy, to seek a higher title from Rome, but it backfires spectacularly and the empire then exciled into this to gall, which is modern day France.
20:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
20:43
[SPEAKER_00]: So he needs so many bad choices.
20:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
20:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
20:46
[SPEAKER_00]: That's extra curricular.
20:48
[SPEAKER_00]: That's outside this go.
20:49
[SPEAKER_00]: That's all historical.
20:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
20:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, well, you said it was exiled, but I thought it was killing battle or something.
20:56
[SPEAKER_00]: No, his armies, or his armies got eviscerated by the king of Arabia's armies.
21:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I got it.
21:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
21:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
21:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, let's go back.
21:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
21:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
21:06
[SPEAKER_00]: So on Harrod's birthday, Harrod and Titus the Tetroc are guy Harrod.
21:12
[SPEAKER_00]: on Herod's birthday, the daughter of Herodias, Selame.
21:17
[SPEAKER_00]: So this would be Herod's, Herod and Tippus, the tetrarchs, Great Nies.
21:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
21:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And his sister-in-law's child, but now his wife's child.
21:32
[SPEAKER_00]: So his stepdaughter, his great Nies, stepdaughter,
21:38
[SPEAKER_00]: whatever, okay, danced for the guests and pleased heritage so much, lived to your imagination how that was a nasty looking at your stepdaughter like that.
21:49
[SPEAKER_00]: You need to stop that he promised with an oath to give Salome the dancer, his stepdaughter slash great niece, whatever she asked for.
22:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and she asked for John the Baptist.
22:04
[SPEAKER_00]: No, hold on, hold on, hold on.
22:06
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's talk about his birthday first, okay?
22:09
[SPEAKER_00]: His birthday was either the day he was born or the day he began to reign because they called both of those birthdays.
22:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, both were called that.
22:21
[SPEAKER_00]: So we don't know which one it was.
22:22
[SPEAKER_00]: It might have been his birthday, it might not have been.
22:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
22:25
[SPEAKER_00]: The Kings of Persia,
22:28
[SPEAKER_00]: All of these guys were accustomed to rejecting no petition requested of them during the entertainment.
22:36
[SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of times people would wait to the King's birthday party to make whatever request was most important to them, because it was that the King couldn't turn it down.
22:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so it would like hold it in their pocket, right?
22:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
22:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, when Herid heard the news of Jesus' miracles at the beginning of the chapter, right, he fears that Jesus was really John, come back to life and that supernatural powers were working in him, right?
23:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And then having mentioned John the Baptist death, the writer is Matthew of this book, right?
23:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Then they go back to record the events that led up to it.
23:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And you were like,
23:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, do you remember that?
23:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Have vaguely.
23:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Like at the beginning of the chapter, it was like, this happened and then here it was like, fuck me, this Jesus guy keep hearing about, is John the Baptist who I killed.
23:38
[SPEAKER_00]: What?
23:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And then it was like three weeks before, you know, and then you had like the first work of yours, right?
23:46
[SPEAKER_00]: So I interpreted that correctly.
23:48
[SPEAKER_00]: That is what happened.
23:49
[SPEAKER_00]: They went back in time and were like, that was a flash forward.
23:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Now we're going to tell you how we got there.
23:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
23:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So John, the Baptist publicly condemned Herod's marriage to his sister-in-law slash niece, Herodious,
24:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Brody is fuck and unlawful unnatural disgusting and horrid.
24:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Any chance he got he was spouting off about that ain't right You are doing it wrong.
24:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Got it.
24:20
[SPEAKER_00]: You suck so much Stop put your dick away.
24:25
[SPEAKER_00]: You nasty.
24:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
24:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay
24:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So, Herod and prison John because John had accused him of adultery in marrying Herodias because Herodias had been the wife of Herod's brother Philip.
24:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
24:38
[SPEAKER_00]: You ain't supposed to do that.
24:39
[SPEAKER_00]: That's written, you know.
24:41
[SPEAKER_00]: That's in the Old Testament.
24:42
[SPEAKER_00]: That's in the first, that's in the, the pen to to you ain't supposed to steal your brother's wife.
24:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Both to be fair.
24:49
[SPEAKER_01]: These guys are Roman, so they're not necessarily Judaism.
24:53
[SPEAKER_00]: That is true.
24:55
[SPEAKER_00]: That is true.
24:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know that for a fact, but like I could be I will allow it, but still he's like, I don't care.
25:02
[SPEAKER_00]: That's nasty.
25:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
25:04
[SPEAKER_00]: You grow.
25:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, especially because even before she's built up his wife.
25:09
[SPEAKER_00]: She's all knees.
25:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
25:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Neither of you should be marrying her guy problems all around.
25:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
25:15
[SPEAKER_00]: So the problem is that hered.
25:19
[SPEAKER_00]: uh... the tetrarch and tipis he both respected and feared john the baptist because he knew that john was a godly man and also additionally that the accusations were actually fucking true sure okay no amount of discussion with john could persuade hered to conquer his passions and give up heredias he's like that's we pussy though i got to have it okay
25:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, think about like how much he wanted her.
25:48
[SPEAKER_00]: He gave up the King of her Arabia's daughter for this woman.
25:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
25:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what was in his brain, but I think he was thinking with his wrong head.
26:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is nasty.
26:05
[SPEAKER_00]: So, John's place of imprisonment was probably the dungeon within Herod's palace.
26:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
26:14
[SPEAKER_00]: He sends them down, he sends his guys down there at the party to bring them the head in the middle of the party.
26:21
[SPEAKER_00]: So this gave her the opportunity to speak to him often.
26:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And so they kind of had a relationship.
26:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's how.
26:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, Harid knew he was a good guy, but he can't have somebody spout enough, you're nasty in public, right?
26:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, but this also made it easier for Haridias when an opportunity arose for her to get rid of John, because John was embarrassing her.
26:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not, I'm not an nasty host.
26:51
[SPEAKER_00]: she hated John for John's interference and she did not you know want the relationships of her past called out in public true though they may be right okay so when she saw the chance to have a Mexican as she went for it so Salome was dancing right and then so
27:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, Harriet, Harriet was like, oh, you're so great.
27:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Give me whatever you wish for.
27:16
[SPEAKER_00]: You can have it.
27:16
[SPEAKER_00]: You want a new car.
27:18
[SPEAKER_00]: You want a computer, um, free Netflix for five years.
27:21
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you want?
27:22
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you want?
27:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
27:23
[SPEAKER_00]: She's like, let me go ask my mom.
27:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Hold on.
27:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And she goes and asks her mom.
27:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And her mom says, you know what I want.
27:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I want, um, John the Baptist head on a platter.
27:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
27:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, that's where that phrase comes from.
27:35
[SPEAKER_00]: So Salamay tells Herod, oh, Mom wants John's head on a platter.
27:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry.
27:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry.
27:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so there are stories claiming that when Herod Dias got John's head when it was brought up to on a platter to her.
27:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
27:51
[SPEAKER_00]: There's stories that she drew out the tongue and thrust it through with her hairpin.
27:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh wow.
27:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, she was like, I think this got so much.
28:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it wasn't enough that he got the headed.
28:04
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't enough that it wasn't enough that he was jailed.
28:08
[SPEAKER_00]: It wasn't enough that he was beheaded then.
28:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And it wasn't enough that this was done in front of everybody.
28:12
[SPEAKER_00]: She had to further desecrate the body and stab his tongue.
28:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
28:18
[SPEAKER_00]: That nasty.
28:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
28:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that story.
28:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to see this movie.
28:22
[SPEAKER_00]: This movie would be so good.
28:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
28:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So here's another thing that's really interesting to me.
28:30
[SPEAKER_00]: All of this that I've told you is recorded by other historians at the time.
28:35
[SPEAKER_00]: So John the Baptist was actually a person who existed and his death is one of the few gospel stories independently confirmed.
28:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Interesting.
28:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay.
28:49
[SPEAKER_00]: So this actually happened.
28:51
[SPEAKER_01]: So it also lends some historical credibility to the Jesus story as far as like it's a good reason to have it in there.
28:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
29:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:01
[SPEAKER_00]: But again, they were like, yeah, everybody be raising up from the dead all the time.
29:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Why is Jesus any different?
29:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, but that wasn't the surprising thing.
29:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
29:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:14
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the question I have.
29:15
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I mean, yeah, all I'm saying is that historically it gets limbs to the time it limbs to historical corroboration of these people at least existed, which is probably a large part of why a lot of historians agree that Jesus, yeah, he probably
29:33
[SPEAKER_00]: So the Jewish historian, Flavius Jacifus, which we have mentioned him before, he was, again, a Jewish historian.
29:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
29:41
[SPEAKER_00]: He also records John the Baptist execution, but he gives a completely different reason.
29:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Josephus reports that Herod executed John because John had become politically dangerous.
29:54
[SPEAKER_00]: John the Baptist was attracting huge crowds with all of his chatter.
29:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
30:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, that's was happening and that does make sense.
30:05
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, Jesus came after him was doing the same fucking thing and, you know, he got killed too.
30:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
30:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
30:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
30:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So most historians think that is probably a bit of both.
30:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
30:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Because the other, the, the, the in-saster relationship stuff, that happened to.
30:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I, I would tend to believe Josephus more than I would believe the Bible account because it was probably a mixture of what John the Baptist was saying about Herod.
30:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
30:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Combined with the fact that he was executed.
30:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
30:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what made the story become what it is.
30:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
30:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Instead of being an actual account of what happened because the chances of someone writing this,
30:42
[SPEAKER_01]: that was there to witness this event happening.
30:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
30:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Are probably slimmed it on.
30:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
30:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
30:49
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's conjecture based on events that they know might have that could have transpired.
30:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
30:57
[SPEAKER_01]: But the reality is probably something slightly different.
31:00
[SPEAKER_00]: That was some of the stuff I was most excited to tell you about though and I know some of that was confusing like the three brothers and who was who and how many herids and what in which land.
31:10
[SPEAKER_00]: But you could see why I was like no we got to we got to get through this because it's important.
31:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
31:15
[SPEAKER_00]: It's such a good story, right?
31:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
31:17
[SPEAKER_00]: So Matthew's story of all of this breaking down focuses on the dramatic personal story whereas Josephus, his report focuses on political reality.
31:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
31:32
[SPEAKER_00]: So we get a nice little collection of the two.
31:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
31:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's why historians are like, hmm, bit above, probably both.
31:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
31:40
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
31:41
[SPEAKER_00]: So now we can move on.
31:42
[SPEAKER_00]: We can leave John the Baptist behind.
31:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
31:45
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
31:46
[SPEAKER_00]: So Jesus departs.
31:48
[SPEAKER_00]: He doesn't want to run a foul of Herod.
31:50
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, peace them out.
31:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
31:54
[SPEAKER_00]: We get his compassion for the multitude and he distributes bread.
31:58
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of the times, the numbers were supposed to be symbolic.
32:06
[SPEAKER_00]: actually like 5,000.
32:09
[SPEAKER_00]: That was just a nice round number.
32:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Like they couldn't even count like that.
32:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
32:13
[SPEAKER_00]: They had no way to judge totally 5,000 people.
32:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Like so it was just like a lot of people.
32:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Scabs of folks.
32:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
32:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
32:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Also with the 12 baskets of the leftovers.
32:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
32:27
[SPEAKER_00]: That was almost for sure a tribute to the 12 tribes of Israel.
32:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
32:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that was pretty.
32:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
32:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Pretty obvious.
32:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Anytime you see a 12 in the Bible, you're like tribes of Israel.
32:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
32:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
32:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
32:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Like there's nothing to ask without fail.
32:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
32:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So the multitude get fed and then we get Jesus walking on the water.
32:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
32:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
32:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And let us not forget that this was a big deal, not because he was super magic, but because he was tame, much like when he teamed the storm in previous chapters.
33:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
33:00
[SPEAKER_00]: He is taming water as a natural phenomenon.
33:04
[SPEAKER_00]: He's taming the element.
33:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, and there is something extra special about water, even in the Old Testament.
33:11
[SPEAKER_01]: There's like the whole of Iethan thing.
33:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And like there was a lot about water in the Old Testament.
33:16
[SPEAKER_00]: It was scary to them.
33:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
33:18
[SPEAKER_01]: water was scary and if you don't know like and john even pops up and and Matthew.
33:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, like being able to master the water means not just that you're magical, not just that you're powerful.
33:29
[SPEAKER_00]: You're a god because only gods can do that.
33:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
33:34
[SPEAKER_00]: So that automatically raised him up in the people's eyes.
33:39
[SPEAKER_00]: It could make that story stick and they did.
33:41
[SPEAKER_00]: They did.
33:42
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, 2000 years later, the story sticks.
33:45
[SPEAKER_01]: They did.
33:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not seeing whether it happened or not.
33:48
[SPEAKER_00]: The story stuck.
33:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
33:51
[SPEAKER_00]: It did.
33:51
[SPEAKER_01]: It did.
33:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I hate that.
33:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I just, there's so many clues that this is all BS.
33:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
33:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
34:00
[SPEAKER_00]: But there's also clues as to why the stories were told.
34:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
34:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that, I think, but the reason that the stories are told are more about politics, more about the historical context.
34:14
[SPEAKER_01]: The people that are involved, it's not about mere origin.
34:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's not about miracles and and Jesus necessarily.
34:20
[SPEAKER_01]: It's about the times and what was happening.
34:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And these are the people that were involved in
34:27
[SPEAKER_01]: furthering this story, but it doesn't necessarily live truth to it, just it's a story that got embellished that got passed along and passed along and passed along.
34:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
34:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, unfortunately, we're stuck with it today.
34:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
34:43
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why we're reading it to find out what the fuck.
34:46
[SPEAKER_00]: No, absolutely.
34:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
34:48
[SPEAKER_00]: So Jesus walks on water, he comforts his disciple, he heals the sick and all of that happen.
34:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, remember when he is walking on the water and the dudes, they see him coming in the distance and they're like, fuck me, what the fuck is that?
35:02
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a spirit.
35:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Remember I was like,
35:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Spirit, like, what?
35:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
35:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, that's where you went.
35:08
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what you thought.
35:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
35:10
[SPEAKER_00]: We were like, what is that?
35:12
[SPEAKER_00]: But let us not forget much like at the time, people were rising from the dead on every street corner.
35:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
35:20
[SPEAKER_00]: The spirits of the dead to them were also appearing on every street corner.
35:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
35:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So the spirits would actually appear to them according to doctrine held by the people of that time.
35:32
[SPEAKER_00]: The Greek word is often translated as phantom apparition ghost.
35:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's why they said, is that a spirit over there?
35:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
35:42
[SPEAKER_00]: They didn't necessarily mean is that Jesus a spirit.
35:48
[SPEAKER_00]: They didn't, they couldn't see who it was.
35:50
[SPEAKER_00]: It was dark and stormed.
35:51
[SPEAKER_01]: There's something coming at them.
35:52
[SPEAKER_00]: It's something coming at them in the dark.
35:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe glowing a little bit who knows.
35:57
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what they saw.
35:58
[SPEAKER_00]: They didn't know who or what it was.
36:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
36:03
[SPEAKER_00]: scared.
36:04
[SPEAKER_01]: That's all assuming that this actually happened.
36:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Totally.
36:07
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I'm just telling you what the story means.
36:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
36:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Not whether or not the story actually happened.
36:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
36:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
36:14
[SPEAKER_00]: So the outer storm is dark and someone appears out of nowhere walking on the sea.
36:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And so their first reaction is, um, excuse you, that should not exist.
36:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Let us hide a fuck we're on a boat we can't.
36:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
36:26
[SPEAKER_00]: right?
36:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
36:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And there's nowhere to go.
36:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
36:28
[SPEAKER_00]: So they assume that is something super natural along the lines of what horrifying thing is coming towards us.
36:35
[SPEAKER_00]: It has to be a spirit.
36:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
36:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
36:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Kind of like today, JD Vance says, oh, aliens must be demons.
36:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
36:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
36:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
36:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it must be some kind of evil, malevolent, scary, magical thing.
36:52
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so.
36:53
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so fake and stupid.
36:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, I was I was going to say of the fact that our vice president mentions the words demons at all.
37:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
37:01
[SPEAKER_00]: In a realistic sense of some type, horrifying and embarrassing.
37:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
37:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
37:07
[SPEAKER_01]: What the fuck?
37:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I know I'm embarrassed.
37:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yes, as we all should be, but yeah, here we are.
37:17
[SPEAKER_00]: So we had the question, um, these things keep happening.
37:22
[SPEAKER_00]: All this magic stuff.
37:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Why are the disciples shocked by every new miracle?
37:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And yes, why?
37:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Like what the thought indeed.
37:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was probably literary license.
37:34
[SPEAKER_00]: don't on purpose.
37:35
[SPEAKER_01]: No way.
37:36
[SPEAKER_01]: They used literary license and the Bible.
37:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
37:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
37:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Matthew wasn't writing for history.
37:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Like he wasn't being a record keeper.
37:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Like remember, we've read some places where they were actually being record keeper's player.
37:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Particularly, I think it was second Macbees.
37:57
[SPEAKER_00]: They're just trying to record the story as they saw it.
38:00
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not Matthew's
38:04
[SPEAKER_01]: He's been a fucking story.
38:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Writing theology.
38:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
38:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
38:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And so the disciples are being used repeatedly.
38:13
[SPEAKER_00]: They function as stand-ins for the audience.
38:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
38:17
[SPEAKER_00]: So he talks about how stupid they are because all look at those guys falling down again.
38:23
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't get it because it's convenient.
38:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Just to show a point is make a point.
38:28
[SPEAKER_00]: it's a literary trick.
38:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's what's happening.
38:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Got it.
38:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
38:33
[SPEAKER_00]: So the issue wasn't necessarily a lack of evidence.
38:39
[SPEAKER_00]: It's that each miracle that occurs up until chapter 14, because we haven't got to the second feeding of the people yet.
38:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
38:47
[SPEAKER_00]: That's in the next chapter.
38:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
38:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so up until now, each miracle breaks a different category, okay?
38:53
[SPEAKER_00]: So we've had, we've had magic people that like they could do this magic.
38:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And some other guy could do that magic.
39:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And some other guy could do these magic.
39:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Jesus is breaking them out because he can do all the magic.
39:09
[SPEAKER_00]: He not just heals somebody, he then also exercises demons.
39:18
[SPEAKER_00]: He then also walks on water.
39:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
39:20
[SPEAKER_00]: He's doing all the things, which magic can be found on every street corner, but then a parent had specialists.
39:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Granted to other people also, because he granted multiple magic powers to his apostles as well.
39:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
39:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Which, again, and then we have a lot of historical data on any of this is just astounding to me.
39:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
39:47
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, Simon called Peter couldn't walk on water very long, but yeah, he did, though.
39:52
[SPEAKER_01]: He took like a few steps, so maybe this isn't understand the powers, you know, I don't know who fucking he didn't know.
39:59
[SPEAKER_01]: It all sounds like a lot of bullshit.
40:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it is totally, it is.
40:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just bringing you like what this was about.
40:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, I got it.
40:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I got it.
40:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
40:08
[SPEAKER_00]: So, um,
40:11
[SPEAKER_00]: They're thinking, is that just because God heals people through Jesus?
40:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
40:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Which we've seen happen, quote unquote?
40:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
40:21
[SPEAKER_00]: That doesn't automatically mean therefore he can control the sea.
40:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So when they see Jesus, they're like, oh, he can do that.
40:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And this, what the fuck?
40:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's supposed to be what that's about that.
40:34
[SPEAKER_01]: But when you already had an Omy God moment, when they were when he stopped the storm,
40:39
[SPEAKER_00]: He stopped the storm, but he didn't welcome water.
40:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, no idea.
40:42
[SPEAKER_00]: That's time he walked on water.
40:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
40:44
[SPEAKER_00]: It's different.
40:46
[SPEAKER_00]: It's controlling the elements differently.
40:50
[SPEAKER_00]: ancient peoples had high expectations and they were very specific about what profits could and could not do.
40:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And Jesus was not staying inside their box of understanding.
41:03
[SPEAKER_00]: He was like, brick and down all the walls and doing his own thing.
41:06
[SPEAKER_00]: He just kept up in his game, okay?
41:09
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's why they kept being surprised, two reasons.
41:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
41:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
41:16
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
41:16
[SPEAKER_00]: So then we get to, as you said, Peter can't walk on water.
41:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
41:20
[SPEAKER_00]: He can, but then he doesn't.
41:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
41:22
[SPEAKER_00]: So Peter's failure is a little bit weirdly realistic in in being included, because if Matthew was inventing propaganda, Peter is a very strange hero.
41:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, one argument that Christian apologists would make is, why would the early church repeatedly embarrass its leading apostle if the stories were prudent or pure invention?
41:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
41:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Skeptics would respond as your face is telling me, uh, because flawed heroes make better teaching tools.
41:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, yeah, duh, and because Matthews, we already know Matthew is using the apostles as
42:06
[SPEAKER_00]: tools and stuages, burnt stand-ins for the audience.
42:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, and I can already see the Sunday school lessons, right?
42:14
[SPEAKER_01]: If Peter fails, then it's okay that you fail.
42:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you just have to keep trying to get more faith, more, you know, keep going, keep going, yeah.
42:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Even though Peter failed, I mean, even though he got called Satan, he kept coming, he kept going.
42:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
42:27
[SPEAKER_00]: He kept following Jesus.
42:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
42:28
[SPEAKER_00]: That's the lesson.
42:30
[SPEAKER_00]: You just got to keep to.
42:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, that's literally what that message was.
42:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
42:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I just hate it.
42:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it,
42:49
[SPEAKER_00]: face the face in front of their fucking eyeballs, literally standing there and they see magic happen, right in front of them, and they still doubted.
42:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Why should anyone, two thousand years later, be a believer?
43:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I specifically asked that.
43:04
[SPEAKER_00]: You did.
43:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, I know, right?
43:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
43:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And that is one of the strongest skeptical observations, particularly about this chapter.
43:18
[SPEAKER_00]: This chapter does no favors for itself because it really doesn't these folks are looking at magic and they're like
43:27
[SPEAKER_00]: what's going to happen, how will we ever get through this?
43:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it diminishes the magic, right?
43:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Because, because what we have learned through studying, actually no, what we've learned just through reading the Bible is that there's other miracles going on, hypothetically, in this world that they exist in, right?
43:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And not only that, but like, even resurrection isn't surprising, apparently, right?
43:56
[SPEAKER_01]: The fact that these are not, you know, amazing and to the world at large.
44:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And these guys are still like, oh, we get through this.
44:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
44:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Unlike you live with magic every day, you know how.
44:10
[SPEAKER_01]: So obviously, what you're writing is fiction.
44:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
44:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Not truth.
44:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
44:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And that alone makes this just so...
44:21
[SPEAKER_01]: unbelievable.
44:23
[SPEAKER_00]: It makes a question matter even more.
44:25
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it makes like the fact that those guys thought resurrection happened all the time and they still doubted Jesus' abilities.
44:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
44:36
[SPEAKER_00]: That makes them even more unbelievable.
44:39
[SPEAKER_00]: agreed so yeah I'm sorry we could stop now like and I would feel comfortable like nope Bible got nothing off for me we're not going to do that we're going to keep reading right sure we have kept reading past this chapter we have to right I'm just saying like at this point we've read enough of the Bible that I can confidently say
45:02
[SPEAKER_00]: There is nothing else past this chapter that is going to offer me anything because we're done.
45:10
[SPEAKER_00]: We're done.
45:11
[SPEAKER_00]: The disciples were cooked.
45:13
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm sorry.
45:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
45:16
[SPEAKER_00]: So.
45:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, the Gospels repeatedly portray eyewitnesses as very doubting.
45:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Like we got John the Baptist questioning Jesus.
45:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
45:29
[SPEAKER_00]: We get the disciples panicking all the fucking time tripping over themselves.
45:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Peter sinks.
45:36
[SPEAKER_00]: because he doubts he sinks, and the crowds keep demanding more and more signs even though.
45:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
45:43
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like we've seen signs, show us more signs, give us a sign, we need a sign, more signs, more signs.
45:50
[SPEAKER_00]: So, ironically, the Gospels themselves acknowledge that miracles do not automatically create belief, which I'm like, yeah, no shit.
46:03
[SPEAKER_01]: But Christians told him that that Christians won't admit that right right even though it's in their book Yeah
46:09
[SPEAKER_00]: but okay.
46:10
[SPEAKER_00]: That's crazy.
46:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Like no, actually we're the normal ones you guys because they saw the magic and they still doubted.
46:17
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't see the magic.
46:19
[SPEAKER_00]: It's perfectly natural that we would doubt.
46:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
46:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is the worst show.
46:24
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it makes sense.
46:25
[SPEAKER_01]: If you guys just be a little bit realistic about your beliefs.
46:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
46:30
[SPEAKER_01]: What is wrong with saying, okay, I mean, the Bible literally says this stuff.
46:35
[SPEAKER_00]: But I mean literally says, I can see why you would think that.
46:39
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're a Christian and smokes reading yourself from the words that are in the Bible, yeah, you're doing this wrong, right?
46:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that's just that's my opinion.
46:48
[SPEAKER_01]: My opinion is that if you are not reading this and trying to interpret it and trying to ask the questions that we're asking,
46:56
[SPEAKER_01]: You're probably doing this wrong.
46:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I think so.
46:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't have a problem with you having faith, right?
47:01
[SPEAKER_01]: You people can have faith.
47:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And we have Christians that join us in discord, right?
47:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, which I think is really awesome, actually.
47:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's awesome and interesting.
47:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
47:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's, but they're willing to engage and engage their religion.
47:22
[SPEAKER_01]: even though they don't mind asking the question right which means that they're awesome people I I will say this as far as Christians that I have met in my life the ones that I have met through our discord have been some of the strongest most amazing ones that I've met in in my life because because of what they're trying to do because of what they're allowing themselves to question because of how they're they're choosing to see their
47:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like the believers in our discord group are less specifically followers of the Bible and more spiritual in nature.
48:04
[SPEAKER_00]: And I appreciate and respect that because
48:08
[SPEAKER_00]: If I could believe that way, I do lean that way.
48:12
[SPEAKER_00]: I do.
48:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm an atheist.
48:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't get me wrong.
48:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't believe in magic.
48:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
48:18
[SPEAKER_00]: But there is a part of me that does yearn for that spirituality.
48:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
48:24
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I have a deep reverence for people who have that spirituality.
48:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
48:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And I appreciate it.
48:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Which is why you have zero reverence for me.
48:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
48:39
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I revere you in other ways, because you're an awesome husband, you're an awesome wife.
48:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, thank you.
48:47
[SPEAKER_01]: That was the crowd was waiting for that.
48:49
[SPEAKER_00]: They were going to be a breath.
48:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
48:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyways, I realized I was like, oh, I got to, yeah.
48:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, oh, I got to, yeah, I was like, oh, I got to, yeah, I was like, oh, I'm caught up.
48:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I did.
48:57
[SPEAKER_00]: You did say it.
48:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I know, and you know what, sometimes you haven't.
49:02
[SPEAKER_00]: We're all growing here if y'all one time I cut a foot of hair off of like I cut my hair I cut a foot of hair off.
49:11
[SPEAKER_00]: This is true and it was a week before husband notice.
49:14
[SPEAKER_00]: This is true and Let me rephrase that husband didn't notice.
49:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I pointed out Did you notice that I cut off a foot of my hair?
49:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh And you were like I guess it looks so much on observance sometimes
49:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So an observant, no less loving for all of that, and I love you.
49:37
[SPEAKER_00]: it doesn't take magic.
49:39
[SPEAKER_01]: That's all right.
49:41
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
49:42
[SPEAKER_00]: So getting back to our big question here.
49:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, even within the story, people who supposedly witnessed miracles firsthand often remain unconvinced.
49:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what we're getting into in this chapter in particular.
50:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
50:00
[SPEAKER_00]: So a secular historian would generally say, no matter what actually happened back then, people in the ancient world were interpreting events through a supernatural framework.
50:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Everything that they saw, they had to make make sense in some way, how does the TV work?
50:21
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, demons, you know, and that worked for them.
50:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, the historical possibilities usually considered are there's four points here.
50:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
50:35
[SPEAKER_00]: One, the miracles happened exactly as reported.
50:39
[SPEAKER_01]: We can dismiss that.
50:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
50:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Two extraordinary events were later embellished.
50:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me, me
51:17
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'm gonna give him that ability but even beyond that my guess is that Jesus was just a good speaker Really really charismatic really a charismatic speaker with great slight of hand is where I'm leaving And continuing the brand that John the Baptist had already built right like Obviously if John the Baptist is dead probably a lot of his followers flocked to Jesus right so Jesus now has this large following of people who
51:46
[SPEAKER_01]: believe him and what he tells them, right?
51:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
51:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Now I am going to lean into just a little bit.
51:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, just for the sake of being generous here.
51:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Weird things do sometimes happen that we don't understand.
52:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, for example, there are some places in the world where water,
52:10
[SPEAKER_00]: the whirlpool will flow the opposite direction then normally does.
52:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Right?
52:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Now we have come to learn the science behind that, but when this was first discovered it was like a freak isoid.
52:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Like what the fuck was wrong with this place?
52:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Demons.
52:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
52:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So I understand they probably had so many weird things happening that they didn't understand that
52:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I can see why they did think magic was real.
52:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
52:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I will say Neil the Grass Tyson has one of my favorite coach regarding this.
52:42
[SPEAKER_01]: And it says that God is an ever receiving pocket of scientific ignorance that gets smaller and smaller and smaller as time moves on.
52:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that.
52:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's so true.
52:51
[SPEAKER_00]: It's perfect.
52:52
[SPEAKER_00]: The more we understand the less need we have for God.
52:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
52:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
52:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And at this point, I'm just more inclined to say where things happen and that's because we haven't figured out yet how it works.
53:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
53:05
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how I operate in the world.
53:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that's exciting.
53:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I do too.
53:10
[SPEAKER_00]: I love learning and figuring out new stuff.
53:12
[SPEAKER_00]: I love humanity coming together.
53:16
[SPEAKER_00]: to figure out new stuff.
53:17
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's why you and I both like we love the space missions.
53:22
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, because it is the whole world globally coming together to explore and to learn new stuff.
53:28
[SPEAKER_00]: So cool.
53:29
[SPEAKER_01]: If I long for anything, it's for us to be a more scientifically minded society.
53:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I think there is so much that we could aspire to be as humans that were missing out on by not focusing in that direction.
53:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Imagine what we could accomplish if.
53:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, actually it was having this conversation with one of our patrons and Brazil the day and it was about you know think of all the money that has been spent on churches and and and all the things involved that over the centuries because he had just been to Europe and seen all of the churches over there and he was like man the churches are gorgeous right just imagine now all of the money spent on I think those churches have something to lend to our society as well with his story history and the story of our people.
54:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
54:18
[SPEAKER_00]: You know?
54:19
[SPEAKER_01]: But the sentiment isn't wrong.
54:22
[SPEAKER_01]: We spent so many hundreds, thousands of years focusing on something other than science.
54:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
54:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And even a lot of the early Christians spend a lot of time, you know, hiding scientific discoveries because it went counter to what they're
54:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Christian beliefs work.
54:41
[SPEAKER_01]: So it is a shame that my opinion we could do and be so much better.
54:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Even with the beautiful architecture.
54:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
54:48
[SPEAKER_01]: So yep.
54:50
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
54:51
[SPEAKER_00]: So we covered the first two points.
54:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Miracles happen exactly as they are as they are reported.
54:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely not.
54:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
54:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Extraordinary events were later embellished.
55:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe we'll give you a little bit.
55:04
[SPEAKER_00]: We're extraordinary means weird shit that you just didn't understand yet.
55:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to go with a very small generous.
55:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, being generous.
55:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
55:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
55:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
55:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Number three natural events were interpreted as supernatural, which that kind of leans into the extraordinary events.
55:21
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just things happen and you didn't know what the fuck you were talking about.
55:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Is there another choice?
55:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Cause I'm still not convinced here of the any of these.
55:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Number four stories developed through oral tradition before being written down.
55:33
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the one.
55:34
[SPEAKER_01]: That's that's the one I was looking for right there.
55:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I was I would suggest that there's probably a number five.
55:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Political propaganda added to it and made shit up to what was already being passed around.
55:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
55:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, how many times throughout the Old Testament, right, was there something that was heavily embellished compared to the historical version of it that was done for the reinforcement of the Jews religious vigor at the time to enhance their love of their God?
56:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Most recently we see that in the way the scene events were recorded in first macabees versus second macabees.
56:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's incredible.
56:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know that that's not canon for most Christians of this for some, but not all.
56:24
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's a great example, and it does, there is no God in first macabees, but second macabees is all God.
56:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was written much later to inject that godliness back into that book, exactly.
56:39
[SPEAKER_01]: It's incredible to me that no one, it's just incredible to me that these things aren't discussed.
56:49
[SPEAKER_01]: and such a large part of our society and these things just aren't discussed at all.
56:55
[SPEAKER_00]: One might say it's discussed in.
56:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
57:00
[SPEAKER_01]: this guy.
57:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
57:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
57:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
57:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So most secular historians would go with some combination of points two through four.
57:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
57:10
[SPEAKER_00]: With miracles actually happening being discounted completely.
57:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Obviously.
57:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
57:16
[SPEAKER_00]: But the key point here is that ancient people were not automatically goalable.
57:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And we shouldn't think of them that way.
57:23
[SPEAKER_00]: They just didn't know any better.
57:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
57:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's hard to keep in mind.
57:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, they didn't have a Google they could go and ask.
57:31
[SPEAKER_01]: They didn't have textbooks that they could consult.
57:33
[SPEAKER_01]: They didn't have teachers that thought different things.
57:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And their trusted leaders were telling them things.
57:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
57:38
[SPEAKER_01]: So what else would they, you know, whoa, you're just going home and cook dinner for your kids.
57:42
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, if somebody's telling you these things happen, then that's someone that you trust and maybe even admire, why wouldn't you?
57:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
57:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so these people argued, doubted, they rejected profits.
57:56
[SPEAKER_00]: They disagreed with miracle claims, a lot of like people do today.
58:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
58:01
[SPEAKER_00]: So back then, wasn't much different from what we've got today.
58:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Except that we don't have any current miracles that happened.
58:07
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah.
58:08
[SPEAKER_01]: There's that.
58:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
58:09
[SPEAKER_01]: We're just starting over old miracle claims.
58:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
58:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So now we can move into chapter 15.
58:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
58:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
58:16
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
58:17
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's the one where we get the washing of the hands and how that's not a big deal, right?
58:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Do we want we shouldn't watch hands.
58:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
58:26
[SPEAKER_01]: We're right.
58:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
58:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
58:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
58:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, here's the thing, though, on the washing of hands before and after, particularly eating meat.
58:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
58:35
[SPEAKER_00]: The Jews had, they laid great stress in how important this was.
58:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I imagine it would be because to me, like, they're handling dead meat, right?
58:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
58:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And they don't like touching dead things, right?
58:46
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's something symbolic with regard to that because they can't even, they can't touch a dead body, right?
58:53
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
58:54
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're touching a dead animal, in order to consume that meat, you would want to naturally, ritually clean yourself before and after.
59:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, not just wash your hands, ritually cleanse your self.
59:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
59:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
59:10
[SPEAKER_00]: They considered eating with unwashed hands to be
59:15
[SPEAKER_00]: not just an ordinary crime, but a somewhat extraordinary crime.
59:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
59:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So it would have been a big fucking deal that Jesus was like, yo, okay?
59:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, imagine when they instituted that policy, right?
59:27
[SPEAKER_01]: How many less sick people became?
59:29
[SPEAKER_01]: How much less people became sick?
59:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
59:31
[SPEAKER_01]: So it probably dramatically changed their culture.
59:33
[SPEAKER_00]: It did.
59:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's why it was so instilled into people like, yeah, continue doing this.
59:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, here's something interesting, when they first were trying to induce people to actually follow through on this regularly, before it became just a natural tradition, they fiend that an evil spirit called Shiptah.
59:58
[SPEAKER_00]: would sit on the hands by night and had a right to sit on the food of anyone who eats without washing his hands and make it hurtful to him.
1:00:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So that person who had washed their hands would then get sick.
1:00:15
[SPEAKER_00]: into which goes towards what you just said, right?
1:00:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because a lot of the quote-unquote laws in the Old Testament are based on practical reasons.
1:00:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it?
1:00:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:00:28
[SPEAKER_01]: So, not that the actual implementation of it is a practical reason, but the reason behind it is practical.
1:00:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
1:00:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:00:38
[SPEAKER_00]: So they would consider the person who undervalues this right to be no better than a heathen and they would then excommunicate that person.
1:00:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
1:00:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Because, wow.
1:00:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you're not following this very spiritual rule based on the reasons that you gave on top of the fact that you're inviting
1:01:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
1:01:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was a big fucking deal for Jesus to be like, not a school.
1:01:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:01:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:01:08
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you don't have to wash hands.
1:01:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
1:01:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
1:01:14
[SPEAKER_00]: So, then Jesus is like arguing with them.
1:01:18
[SPEAKER_00]: He gives them the Yabba you.
1:01:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
1:01:21
[SPEAKER_00]: He's like, we don't want your hands, but you don't take care of your parents.
1:01:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's not a good reason to break a law.
1:01:28
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it's not.
1:01:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I am going to talk about the law he was talking about, though.
1:01:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
1:01:33
[SPEAKER_00]: It is relevant.
1:01:34
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
1:01:35
[SPEAKER_00]: He was saying, you accused my disciples of transgressing against the traditions of the elders, because washing your hands before you eat was not specifically a law in the pen to chew, right?
1:01:49
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a tradition of the elders from way back.
1:01:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
1:01:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Still, it was all but law, right?
1:01:58
[SPEAKER_00]: He's saying, you're worried about traditions of the elders.
1:02:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm accusing you of transgressing the fucking commands of God and in favor of your own tradition.
1:02:10
[SPEAKER_00]: thus preferring the inventions of man to the actual precepts of God.
1:02:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Now let's talk about what those laws of God were that he's talking about, the taking care of your parents thing.
1:02:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:02:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
1:02:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
1:02:27
[SPEAKER_01]: That's an intense damage, right?
1:02:29
[SPEAKER_00]: It is.
1:02:29
[SPEAKER_00]: But what does he mean by it, though?
1:02:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, what do you mean they're not taking care of their parents?
1:02:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because he just told us earlier
1:02:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, yeah, but I'm just bringing that back up for so we can remind ourselves there that right now, but he even called him hypocrites, right?
1:02:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay, and so that's from the 10 commandments on or your father.
1:02:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, in Exodus 20, but then in Deuteronomy 5, honor your mother and father, right, blah, blah, blah, right.
1:02:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And then, um, the treatment of servants and the penalties for acts of morality from Exodus and Leviticus, anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death, and anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death, like,
1:03:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, you know, right.
1:03:17
[SPEAKER_01]: That was that confused me.
1:03:19
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's right there in the Ten Commandment Commandments.
1:03:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:03:22
[SPEAKER_01]: But whatever.
1:03:23
[SPEAKER_00]: So here's the thing.
1:03:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Jesus was breaking Jewish traditions, which is actually a much stronger objection than many Christians today would acknowledge.
1:03:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you and I have said, like, whoa, there's a big deal.
1:03:40
[SPEAKER_00]: What the fuck, Jesus?
1:03:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:03:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're looking at Jesus all skeptical and a lot of Christians wouldn't, right?
1:03:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, because we're trying to take this at face value, right?
1:03:48
[SPEAKER_01]: We're like, okay.
1:03:49
[SPEAKER_00]: this is God's book let's let's take God's book and say okay you say to do these things and let's see how that pans out it doesn't pan out very fucking well right we do need to keep in mind the dispute wasn't primarily about hygiene because the Pharisees are asking why Jesus Jesus' disciples ignore the tradition of the elders right or old body of interpretations that
1:04:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Importantly, they're not accusing Jesus of violating one of the 10 commandments, whereas he is accusing them of that.
1:04:27
[SPEAKER_01]: So he's accusing them of a higher threat.
1:04:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, and that's the big deal.
1:04:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Jesus responds by accusing them of elevating tradition above God's actual commands.
1:04:38
[SPEAKER_00]: His example involves something called Corban.
1:04:43
[SPEAKER_00]: whereby a person could dedicate property to God and then claim that they were exempt from supporting their aging parents.
1:04:53
[SPEAKER_00]: They're like, I'm gonna give this money, all my money that I have when I die, it's going to God.
1:05:02
[SPEAKER_00]: okay not not taking care of my aging parents.
1:05:06
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a way of holding on to wealth and throwing your aging parents into a ditch.
1:05:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.
1:05:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:05:12
[SPEAKER_00]: So Jesus is arguing with the Pharisees here, you're using religious loopholes to avoid this specific fucking commandment to honor your father and mother.
1:05:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
1:05:25
[SPEAKER_00]: You're worried about fucking little hand washing rituals that are not a commandment while people are neglecting their parents and breaking God's actual 10 commandment law.
1:05:40
[SPEAKER_01]: You mean kind of like when he was doing that speech and like ignored his mom and others?
1:05:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:05:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
1:05:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm just, like, I mean, I'm just, he's doing it.
1:05:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me be clear.
1:05:50
[SPEAKER_00]: He's still pulling a yabba, you.
1:05:52
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's still saying, well, I mean, I like, I was speeding, but like, you're doing heroin.
1:06:02
[SPEAKER_01]: It just sounds to me like it's a bunch of people running around saying, well, I have a better reason.
1:06:07
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
1:06:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, okay, okay, great.
1:06:10
[SPEAKER_01]: That's awesome, dude.
1:06:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:06:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't know why you think you have a better reason, but apparently you really think you have a better reason.
1:06:17
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
1:06:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's all this sounds like to me.
1:06:20
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it's so true.
1:06:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And what's really funny is if you study psychology, right?
1:06:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:06:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Like a lot of counseling, like therapy and stuff, they will say that when couples come in for counseling that, you know, if you're a response to, I have an issue with you is, yeah, well, I have an issue with you too.
1:06:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
1:06:48
[SPEAKER_00]: you're supposed to like table the second complaint and yeah like okay I hear you that is a valid complaint that you're making.
1:06:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I see that you're frustrated with it however let's you know put a pin in that I do want to talk about it but let's address the first one first.
1:07:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, natural for
1:07:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And Jesus should know better.
1:07:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, son of God.
1:07:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:07:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Dude is son of fucking God.
1:07:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm not saying that your accusation is wrong, Jesus.
1:07:25
[SPEAKER_00]: It sounds like you actually have a very fucking valid complaint.
1:07:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
1:07:30
[SPEAKER_00]: But the way this is being pitched at us is you're using their crimes to excuse yours.
1:07:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:07:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Just because there's this bigger than yours doesn't mean that yours are not criminals.
1:07:42
[SPEAKER_01]: And mature as fuck.
1:07:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:07:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:07:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And so...
1:07:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I get that you're trying to teach us a lesson, but wrong lesson because we are more emotionally mature than that psychology has come a long way.
1:07:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me rephrase that your immature as fuck for someone who claims to be the son of God.
1:07:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah exactly exactly.
1:08:04
[SPEAKER_00]: So he then starts talking to the multitude about religious extremism.
1:08:09
[SPEAKER_00]: The whole what goes into your mouth and what comes out filing blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
1:08:15
[SPEAKER_00]: So him saying what enters the mouth, that teaching wasn't fucking explosive as hell.
1:08:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
1:08:22
[SPEAKER_00]: When Jesus says food doesn't make someone spiritually unclean, he's undoing like,
1:08:30
[SPEAKER_00]: So many years of ancient love shellfish bacon, I mean, yeah, yeah, I mean, I get what he's trying to say, but this goes back to when we first started this With Jesus coming in and being like the rules don't matter don't they don't matter you're doing it wrong follow my rules like No, the Jews literally got smited for picking up sticks on a wrong day
1:08:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
1:08:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And Jesus himself said that we're going to continue to, you know, adhere to the old, old, old, old.
1:09:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:09:02
[SPEAKER_01]: So like, it's very, this is a very confusing message.
1:09:06
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it totally is.
1:09:07
[SPEAKER_01]: That's trying to be pushed here.
1:09:09
[SPEAKER_00]: It totally is.
1:09:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So inton juice would not have just shrugged this off.
1:09:14
[SPEAKER_00]: That would have been rightfully up in arms and like, what are you doing?
1:09:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:09:18
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not Judaism.
1:09:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
1:09:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, if you want to talk about shit, let's sit down and talk, but you want to come in understanding Jewish law and telling us that what enters our mouth, even if you think that we're being hypocritical by breaking other rules or that we're only giving it lip service, let's talk about the lip service, not do a way with the rule all together.
1:09:43
[SPEAKER_01]: but it strikes me that this is partly why he's he's not speaking to your normal everyday Jewish people yeah right like he even says we're not talking to all these doing like we want these other people the outsiders right yes so he's speaking to different crowds on purpose because he is
1:10:02
[SPEAKER_00]: He is Trump speaking to rural rural Americans.
1:10:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, he's going into the trailer parks.
1:10:07
[SPEAKER_01]: He's going into the, you know, whatever.
1:10:09
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's just an early fucking Trump.
1:10:11
[SPEAKER_01]: That's exactly, I mean, like the parallels of this or so.
1:10:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Sickening and unreal.
1:10:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:10:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:10:18
[SPEAKER_00]: So food laws were a major marker of Jewish identity as we know.
1:10:22
[SPEAKER_00]: We've discussed them.
1:10:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
1:10:24
[SPEAKER_00]: So this message would have been really revolutionary.
1:10:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:10:28
[SPEAKER_00]: The people who thought it was cool would have been like, wowed out at the audacity, whereas the people who were true believers of Judaism would have been just appalled in like, what is wrong with you?
1:10:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:10:45
[SPEAKER_00]: One reason scholars debate whether Jesus actually taught this exactly as presented is because it does create a bridge toward the later Gentile church like Christianity and
1:11:01
[SPEAKER_00]: taking Christ as his body and his blood, you know, like you take of the bread in the wine is the body and blood of Christ in communion and a lot of that break would have happened that post Jesus is dead.
1:11:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
1:11:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And so Christianity loves to support this stuff because it conveniently supports the movement's expansion beyond Judaism.
1:11:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
1:11:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And like lens validity to their very exciting new little cult.
1:11:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
1:11:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Plus bacon.
1:11:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:11:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Our cult is better than yours.
1:11:38
[SPEAKER_00]: And we get to eat shrimp and bacon.
1:11:43
[SPEAKER_01]: sometimes even together.
1:11:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:11:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, sure.
1:11:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Wrap that shrimp and bacon, baby.
1:11:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:11:48
[SPEAKER_00]: So I mean, the whole thing is so fucking gross.
1:11:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry.
1:11:52
[SPEAKER_01]: But not shrimp and bacon.
1:11:54
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, just the people and what they were doing and what Jesus was doing.
1:11:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
1:11:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't know.
1:12:00
[SPEAKER_00]: find him innocent and all this.
1:12:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I think he was a very bad man with a very bad message.
1:12:06
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I agree to an extent.
1:12:09
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not that there hasn't been, it's not that there hasn't been good things he said, but he's also said some kind of shitty things, too.
1:12:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And any good thing that he said has been within Agenda?
1:12:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And he's definitely a wrap of... Rapplerals are.
1:12:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:12:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And for a reason, and I don't like it.
1:12:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, Matthew clearly wants readers to cite with Jesus.
1:12:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
1:12:31
[SPEAKER_00]: He's doing a shitty job, but he really wants you to.
1:12:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you can say he's doing a shitty job, but turns out.
1:12:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, if nobody reads the Bible, it doesn't matter how he writes, doesn't.
1:12:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, well, and that's the other thing, right?
1:12:45
[SPEAKER_01]: So we have, we have this entire text that was written, but who would have been reading it?
1:12:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Not your normal everyday parishioners, even back then, right?
1:12:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
1:12:55
[SPEAKER_01]: People didn't probably start reading the Bible on their own until many, many centuries later.
1:13:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, yeah, I mean, it would have been after the Gutenberg Press wasn't mentioned.
1:13:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, so I mean, like this is all going to be interpreted for their followers for many centuries before it ever goes to print to where other people can interpret this for themselves.
1:13:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And at that point, the legend of what Jesus is has already been instilled in society.
1:13:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, established.
1:13:22
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no need to go back and read it, right?
1:13:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Like why would you go read the book of the movie as a song?
1:13:28
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it's so true.
1:13:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And moreover, they wouldn't have had a Google to talk about like, these three brothers that were the son of, you know, hair of the gray and them interpreting or not inheriting the land and how that impacted where Jesus ended up being born, you know, or how that impacted
1:13:54
[SPEAKER_00]: all of the babies being killed, or how that impacted why John the Baptist was killed.
1:14:02
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the most common arguments I get from a college of some line is how can so many people be wrong, right, and my answer to that is that is ignorance, and not not not not use specifically, correct, but ignorance over centuries that built this massive religion,
1:14:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And now we have collective ignorance through acceptance, right?
1:14:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Like this, this has been so accepted by society that there's no need to understand this religion anymore.
1:14:34
[SPEAKER_00]: Because if you actually read all of this straight through as we're doing, and if you actually asked the questions that we're asking, and if you actually studied any of the history of the world that was happening at the time,
1:14:51
[SPEAKER_00]: You could not possibly walk away.
1:14:54
[SPEAKER_00]: You might still be spiritual as many of our deconstructing Christian friends are.
1:14:59
[SPEAKER_01]: But you would be changed.
1:15:00
[SPEAKER_00]: You could not possibly take the Bible at its word and believe that it is the way it happened.
1:15:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
1:15:07
[SPEAKER_00]: You could not possibly.
1:15:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.
1:15:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Somebody's going to say that they did.
1:15:11
[SPEAKER_00]: But they didn't because they could not possibly.
1:15:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, no, I read the Bible all the way through as we're doing, as the questions that we're asking and studied history of the world as it was happening at that time, the geography and it
1:15:34
[SPEAKER_01]: upbringing.
1:15:35
[SPEAKER_01]: If they allow themselves to step away from there, they're taught version of the book, right?
1:15:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, there's ways to read this and just accept it on face value and skip it.
1:15:45
[SPEAKER_00]: But then you wouldn't be asking what it is and that's what I'm saying.
1:15:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, I understand.
1:15:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I was just clarifying a little bit because there will be people that will say I read the whole Bible.
1:15:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a lot of questions and you haven't done step three, which is learning the history of time.
1:16:02
[SPEAKER_00]: So no, if you do those three things, you cannot possibly believe that this is the way it unfolded and fuck you for being a liar saying you did.
1:16:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry.
1:16:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I stand by that statement.
1:16:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm the one that's more soft and leaning towards spirituality and I'm saying that.
1:16:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
1:16:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Whereas husband is, you know, the kinder man, but he's the harder atheist saying, well, somebody might think that they did the, we all said in odd ways.
1:16:33
[SPEAKER_00]: We really do.
1:16:35
[SPEAKER_00]: We really, really do.
1:16:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Because to me, to me, history and geography and politics and sociology and all of those things, those are actual phenomenon that you can study.
1:16:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, those matter.
1:16:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Whereas spirituality is a feeling that has nothing to do with any one particular religion or religious text.
1:17:03
[SPEAKER_00]: It's separate from that.
1:17:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's how I can be firm on one and soft on the other.
1:17:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
1:17:11
[SPEAKER_00]: There.
1:17:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyways, Matthew is writing after the movement had already picked sides.
1:17:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And so
1:17:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I just just if you're like Matthew or whoever wrote Matthew because of my reverberation.
1:17:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Matthew.
1:17:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no.
1:17:27
[SPEAKER_00]: He and his team Matthew at all.
1:17:31
[SPEAKER_00]: He's not a natural neutral reporter.
1:17:35
[SPEAKER_00]: He's an advocate.
1:17:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, he's creating a theology and he's writing for a community that already believes that Jesus is the Messiah.
1:17:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
1:17:45
[SPEAKER_00]: So this narrative assumes that Jesus is correct.
1:17:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:17:49
[SPEAKER_00]: and that is very frustrating is text is frustrating yeah so we move on and we get the Kina Knight woman asking favor for her daughter my daughter's dying can you please save her yes and Jesus is a complete racist asshole yes he is and here's here's some more interesting
1:18:15
[SPEAKER_00]: We should note that Matthew uses the Matthew or the writers, they specifically chose to use a very deliberately archaic term by referring to the woman as a Canaanite woman.
1:18:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's weird, because at this point, they no longer refer to their enemies as Canaanites.
1:18:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was specifically used to evoke this traditional old testament, very old wound enemy.
1:18:50
[SPEAKER_00]: This is an ancient foe.
1:18:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
1:18:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And that kind of leans toward this probably didn't happen and was more like just a story, bro.
1:19:01
[SPEAKER_01]: That's actually an interesting observation from Beth.
1:19:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate that because it lends to the...
1:19:10
[SPEAKER_01]: the story of literary as opposed to the factual.
1:19:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
1:19:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh no, he was racist, but it was for a literary reason.
1:19:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Hang on, let me explain it.
1:19:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Because my Jesus is there weren't any canonites in the old biblical sense, right?
1:19:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So why would Matthew choose this term?
1:19:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
1:19:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Because canonites were Israel's ancient enemies.
1:19:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And as I said, to a Jewish audience, this woman represents the archetypal outsider.
1:19:37
[SPEAKER_00]: she exemplifies.
1:19:39
[SPEAKER_00]: This is the ultimate outsider.
1:19:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, he, Matthews whole thing this whole time has been all the outsiders get it while his own disciples and the people following him.
1:19:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
1:19:51
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't recognize who he is.
1:19:53
[SPEAKER_00]: He has to keep proven himself.
1:19:55
[SPEAKER_00]: They keep asking for signs, whereas even this dog, even this ancient foe from afar,
1:20:03
[SPEAKER_00]: recognizes and has faith in him.
1:20:05
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so smart, I fucking hate it.
1:20:10
[SPEAKER_01]: It's smart and shitty at the same time.
1:20:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, it's insidious.
1:20:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And the fact is, just the fact that Jesus, the Son of God, is a racist fuck in this moment.
1:20:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And he's using it.
1:20:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Disgusting.
1:20:24
[SPEAKER_00]: He's using racism to show even piece of shit people get it y'all.
1:20:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, but the fact that that's even a thought in the New Testament is disturbing to me.
1:20:37
[SPEAKER_00]: It is.
1:20:38
[SPEAKER_00]: It is.
1:20:39
[SPEAKER_00]: So the shock of the story isn't merely that Jesus decides to help a foreigner, okay?
1:20:44
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not the big deal.
1:20:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that he helps someone symbolically associated with the people that Israel was once commanded by God to drive out of the land?
1:20:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:20:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Murder all the canonites that you find get them out of here if you see any of them kill them.
1:21:03
[SPEAKER_01]: So the mere act of helping this woman is
1:21:07
[SPEAKER_01]: and a front to the mainstay Judaism.
1:21:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:21:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Whatever.
1:21:12
[SPEAKER_00]: To the Jewish audience.
1:21:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
1:21:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
1:21:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Moreover, it expands and supports the Christian movement that it would grow into.
1:21:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Judaism was just for the Israelites.
1:21:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Christianity is for the world.
1:21:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
1:21:29
[SPEAKER_00]: All the shits.
1:21:31
[SPEAKER_00]: right, even the dog.
1:21:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And the time of Jesus, this group may not have been breaking away as much as it's being portrayed in this book, because there was what was in the temple, there was a temple that got destroyed in 70, which is well after Jesus' death.
1:21:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And this was written more and then likely after that.
1:21:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
1:21:52
[SPEAKER_01]: and a lot of this is in reference to that time period which was dramatically different because of the happenings of the time that what was going on when Jesus was actually alive.
1:22:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
1:22:02
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's just it's interesting how this all kind of plays on it's it's just interesting.
1:22:08
[SPEAKER_00]: It did add some flavor to it.
1:22:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, absolutely.
1:22:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it makes the story even worse.
1:22:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:22:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Actually, it does.
1:22:16
[SPEAKER_01]: It does.
1:22:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Not only was Jesus a racist fuck.
1:22:19
[SPEAKER_00]: He knew he was a racist fucking was using that.
1:22:23
[SPEAKER_00]: to make a point.
1:22:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And Matthew was using that to make a point for a movement.
1:22:29
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really incredible to me how much I really hate this book and love 80 at the same time.
1:22:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
1:22:36
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so like the whole Bible is so far.
1:22:39
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just been terrible after terrible after terrible.
1:22:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
1:22:43
[SPEAKER_01]: But here we are.
1:22:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Here we are.
1:22:46
[SPEAKER_00]: So ironically, this piece of shit person, the dog, right, ends up displaying more faith, persistence and theological insight than many of Jesus' fellow Israelites.
1:22:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
1:22:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:22:59
[SPEAKER_00]: In literary terms, Matthew is setting up one of his favorite reversals.
1:23:04
[SPEAKER_00]: This whole literary thing that we keep circling around, the insiders get it.
1:23:10
[SPEAKER_00]: more than the outsider.
1:23:12
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sorry, the insiders don't get it, but the outsider.
1:23:16
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, my favorite bit, that woman put Jesus in his place.
1:23:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm like damn.
1:23:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we had questions about that, though.
1:23:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
1:23:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, what's that about?
1:23:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:23:27
[SPEAKER_00]: So some Christians argue that Jesus was testing her faith.
1:23:32
[SPEAKER_00]: He'd already decided he was going to help her.
1:23:36
[SPEAKER_01]: bullshit.
1:23:37
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I totally agree with you.
1:23:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
1:23:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Not how that read, but that's how, but that's how Christians will they'll just reinterpret it however they fucking want.
1:23:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they'll just make up stuff that's not there that there's nothing to support.
1:23:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
1:23:48
[SPEAKER_01]: There's there's literally.
1:23:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because God knows everything Jesus already knew her heart.
1:23:54
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, the exchange was merely there for a lesson for the disciples.
1:23:59
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think you and I decided already the exchange never fucking happened in the first place.
1:24:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
1:24:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:24:04
[SPEAKER_00]: But this is the common church explanation.
1:24:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Because the church is commonly asked about this specific Jesus was racist.
1:24:14
[SPEAKER_00]: What the fuck?
1:24:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, apparently we're not the first to like realize that, which makes me feel really good.
1:24:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
1:24:20
[SPEAKER_00]: But the church has an answer, can't.
1:24:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh no, he was a racist.
1:24:26
[SPEAKER_00]: He, he was using racism for a point.
1:24:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like, but that means he was still racist.
1:24:33
[SPEAKER_00]: The fact that he had a good reason for his racist statement doesn't make it better, guys.
1:24:40
[SPEAKER_00]: But they haven't thought that through.
1:24:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Just the fact that the church already has an answer is like, oh, okay.
1:24:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's not even given into the contradiction about, you know, God calling the cameonites enemies of the Jews and then now they're not.
1:24:56
[SPEAKER_00]: So they're in the 10 commandments.
1:24:58
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't want to hear it.
1:24:59
[SPEAKER_01]: but they're in lies in another contradiction, right?
1:25:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I mean, it's changing, God changing his mind.
1:25:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know if we're going to be able to do contradiction episodes in the New Testament because like, it's so immense.
1:25:09
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so immense that we would probably spend another year just going like verse by verse.
1:25:15
[SPEAKER_00]: This one, this one, this one.
1:25:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I think maybe what we should do is pick out highlights for our contradiction episodes.
1:25:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we have a whole contradiction,
1:25:24
[SPEAKER_01]: uh resource on our website, we just point people to that for the rest of them, right?
1:25:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, we'll share those links in the show notes after our Constitution, but we can do highlights.
1:25:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to be going to be a lot of focus.
1:25:35
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be a lot of focus.
1:25:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I just every chapter that we read, I'm like, oh my god, that's terrible.
1:25:40
[SPEAKER_01]: That's terrible.
1:25:41
[SPEAKER_01]: This yeah, contradiction, contradiction, contradiction.
1:25:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Everything about Jesus is undoing the Old Testament.
1:25:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:25:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Even as Christians claim that it supports it.
1:25:49
[SPEAKER_00]: at the same time that they're like, no, but we don't need that anymore.
1:25:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
1:25:55
[SPEAKER_00]: whichever's more convenient on any given point.
1:25:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:25:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:25:58
[SPEAKER_00]: So many scholars think Jesus genuinely shared the common Jewish assumption that his mission was directed first and exclusively to Israel, right?
1:26:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And the woman challenges that assumption and then after her response, Jesus helps her, right?
1:26:17
[SPEAKER_00]: That's what scholars think.
1:26:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:26:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And this reading suggests the encounter expands the scope
1:26:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
1:26:25
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's what progressive Christians favor.
1:26:30
[SPEAKER_00]: That's how they excuse this.
1:26:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:26:32
[SPEAKER_00]: But like skeptics are like, no, dog.
1:26:36
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
1:26:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I would argue that maybe even some evangelical churches are actually leaning into the racism aspect.
1:26:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, definitely.
1:26:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Some of the hard or core ones, not directly get the behind me Satan, your Pharisee,
1:26:53
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm doing that.
1:26:54
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't, those churches wouldn't necessarily even have to come up with an excuse for what I said.
1:26:58
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, they're excited about it.
1:27:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, Jesus did a racism.
1:27:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, sweet.
1:27:03
[SPEAKER_00]: That's awesome.
1:27:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and only when she begged at his feet that he relent.
1:27:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he's like, you're still a dog, but I will give you my courage.
1:27:11
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a way to make that sound really ugly.
1:27:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, like, why not?
1:27:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Why not read it?
1:27:15
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why not lean into it.
1:27:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying I agree with that, but like, why wouldn't somebody read it that way?
1:27:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:27:20
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's just as bad as anything else.
1:27:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
1:27:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
1:27:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Go.
1:27:25
[SPEAKER_00]: So having brought up the Pharisees, it should be pointed out that clearly as you and I have noticed, they were not the fucking villains that Christians often imagine them to be, right?
1:27:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:27:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Popular culture has turned the term Pharisee into a synonym for hypocrite, but the Pharisees were arguably the most progressive Jewish movement of their day.
1:27:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Well yeah, the sad justies were the ones that were like the establishment Jewish at that time and the Pharisees were actually broken off from Judaism much like the Jesus movement or whatever Christianity movement, you know, like this they were a separate group that was definitely challenging the establishment show.
1:28:10
[SPEAKER_00]: but but not with Jesus though, right, which is so interesting, but it is infinite.
1:28:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like all this is is competing sex of different breakaways from it's a family fight, you know, man, man group, you know, like they're like, well, we're going to be more popular than you.
1:28:28
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're going to, you know, you guys are terrible.
1:28:30
[SPEAKER_01]: We're awesome.
1:28:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, marketing, right?
1:28:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Like this is something that a lot of this is just fucking marketing.
1:28:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And then whatever.
1:28:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:28:40
[SPEAKER_00]: So the Pharisees believed in resurrection of the dead.
1:28:44
[SPEAKER_00]: They believed in angels.
1:28:45
[SPEAKER_00]: They believed in adapting Judaism to ordinary life, finding those blue poles to make it work.
1:28:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
1:28:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And they believed in making religious knowledge available beyond just the priestly elite.
1:29:02
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's a lot of similarities actually between the Pharisees and Jesus.
1:29:06
[SPEAKER_00]: So they weren't just your HOA going around measuring grass and saying Jesus, you're doing your hairs too long.
1:29:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Get a haircut.
1:29:14
[SPEAKER_00]: They were probably actually questioning like that.
1:29:19
[SPEAKER_00]: We like try to find loopholes, but even you're going way too far, what are you doing?
1:29:25
[SPEAKER_01]: You're breaking all the fucking law.
1:29:27
[SPEAKER_00]: You're breaking all the laws.
1:29:29
[SPEAKER_00]: We try to find ways to keep the laws as part of our culture.
1:29:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, I would love to hear.
1:29:36
[SPEAKER_01]: this time period written from the Pharisees point of view.
1:29:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Me too.
1:29:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Me too.
1:29:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I would love to hear that side of it.
1:29:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Me too, especially.
1:29:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I wish there was a text that had them saying things about Jesus' group.
1:29:51
[SPEAKER_00]: I know.
1:29:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I would be so amazed.
1:29:53
[SPEAKER_00]: I would love to read that.
1:29:55
[SPEAKER_00]: That would be fascinating.
1:29:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure it does not exist, but
1:29:58
[SPEAKER_00]: that's a crime.
1:30:00
[SPEAKER_00]: That's a crime against humanity.
1:30:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
1:30:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:30:03
[SPEAKER_00]: So many of the beliefs that later became mainstream Judaism actually came from the Pharisees, their traditions.
1:30:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
1:30:15
[SPEAKER_00]: which I'm just like, yeah, that tracks, right?
1:30:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I ironically modern rabbinic Judaism is much closer to the Pharisees than to either the Sadducees or the Essenes.
1:30:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
1:30:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And we don't know a lot about the Sadducees or the Essenes beyond
1:30:32
[SPEAKER_00]: hear say like what we've picked up ever we've shown through but we're learning more about the Pharisee.
1:30:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Well it sounds to me much like there was a there was a large cultural thing happening right a shift.
1:30:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And the Pharisees and Jesus both were kind of filling gaps on that shift, right?
1:30:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
1:30:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And so
1:30:52
[SPEAKER_01]: If the Pharisees are the main rabbinical movement at this point, then I'm going to push back.
1:30:56
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to say that the Pharisees were not shifting.
1:31:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to say the Pharisees were following Jewish tradition in law as they saw.
1:31:09
[SPEAKER_01]: They weren't, but they were a shift.
1:31:11
[SPEAKER_01]: The Sadducees were the
1:31:13
[SPEAKER_01]: the traditional Jews at that time.
1:31:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, I see what you're saying.
1:31:17
[SPEAKER_01]: So they were a shift from what traditional Judaism was considered in that time period.
1:31:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Got it.
1:31:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Got it.
1:31:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Got it.
1:31:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
1:31:24
[SPEAKER_01]: So the Pharisees were breaking away from the main temple.
1:31:27
[SPEAKER_00]: They were trying to lighten up Judaism a little bit to make it more livable, but not like hardcore.
1:31:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
1:31:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:31:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And Jesus was like, let's scrap the whole fucking thing.
1:31:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know this because I was listening to that podcast that we had discussed in a obvious Q&A year.
1:31:42
[SPEAKER_00]: But you still can't remember what it is.
1:31:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I linked it in one of the previous episodes, but yes, it's.
1:31:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I can't remember, yeah, anyway, it was a great resource.
1:31:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I will end up probably adding it to our resources on our website because I love having all the perspectives in our website because it's- Because information is good.
1:32:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And what should all have?
1:32:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I personally like having a good resource to go to when I have questions about things.
1:32:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And if it's on my own website that I've created, it's just that much easier for me.
1:32:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And you all can access it too, because I don't like to gatekeeper there.
1:32:19
[SPEAKER_00]: because information is good and we should all have access to it.
1:32:23
[SPEAKER_01]: I missed the old internet where everything was free and everything was just available.
1:32:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And everybody was excited to like, oh my god, I found this cool website.
1:32:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Have you seen like when I come up with something that I think is amazing, I want you all to see it too.
1:32:36
[SPEAKER_00]: That's still funny, this is so off topic.
1:32:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I love when your mom sends us really interesting links, but it's like an article from the New York Times or an article from the Atlantic.
1:32:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the things me and you first do is go find a winky, I, other way to read it.
1:33:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
1:33:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
1:33:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:33:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:33:09
[SPEAKER_00]: So that, you know, we can still have the ability to have information because information should be available to everybody.
1:33:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:33:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And not everybody has the ability to pay for all of the things.
1:33:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
1:33:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes.
1:33:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Like us.
1:33:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:33:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
1:33:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:33:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:33:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Speaking of which, we do have a Patreon.
1:33:32
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, I'm just gonna like summer right here and then bring it home, we're almost done here.
1:33:37
[SPEAKER_00]: So many of the beliefs, oh, I just said that, that became later mainstream Judaism, came from the Pharisees, traditions, and that rabbinic Judaism is much closer to the Pharisees than any of the other groups, so
1:33:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Matthew depicts the Pharisees as these cartoonish villains.
1:33:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:33:59
[SPEAKER_00]: But what's actually happening in reality was Jesus just arguing with his fellow Jewish teachers over how Judaism should be practiced.
1:34:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
1:34:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And that basically goes to what you said, which is just like mommy and daddy are fighting about how to do like the household bills and meal plan.
1:34:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
1:34:20
[SPEAKER_01]: But what's sells better is is this like
1:34:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Enemy good good guys an enemy type thing, right?
1:34:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
1:34:27
[SPEAKER_01]: That sells better.
1:34:28
[SPEAKER_01]: It's why Fox News has succeeded.
1:34:30
[SPEAKER_01]: It's why you know
1:34:33
[SPEAKER_01]: news has become more entertainment than it has been news.
1:34:36
[SPEAKER_01]: If it means it was, it's always been something like on long those lines, but it's become worse and recent and in our lifetime.
1:34:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, it's got to bleed more because of the internet.
1:34:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
1:34:47
[SPEAKER_00]: We've got to get your attention, you guys.
1:34:49
[SPEAKER_01]: That being said, we don't even get sponsored by them, but ground news is an awesome resource.
1:34:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:34:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and I, you know, support your local NPR stations and PBS stations.
1:35:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.
1:35:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't don't get your news from mainstream media because it's all entertainment at this point and why not support something that's actually doing journalism.
1:35:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Get off Facebook.
1:35:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, yeah, I look, we're on Facebook.
1:35:15
[SPEAKER_01]: We're on all the things you can find us anywhere, but let me rephrase that.
1:35:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me rephrase that.
1:35:21
[SPEAKER_01]: All we need on our Facebook.
1:35:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Our platform is available for access on Facebook.
1:35:28
[SPEAKER_00]: You and I personally are not really on Facebook.
1:35:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Great, right, yeah.
1:35:32
[SPEAKER_00]: that I just wanted to clarify that.
1:35:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to be accused of hypocrisy.
1:35:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
1:35:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And that means that I don't really participate much in the social media as these data.
1:35:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Just don't have time or hey, yeah, I don't have time.
1:35:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Nope, the best place to reach us is always in discord and if you and Patreon and if you really want to interact with us, you should be us at our live discord every Tuesday at 10 p.m. Eastern and with that, I think we're going to wrap it up.
1:36:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that was our Q&A for chapters 14 and 15 of Matthew and we will be back next time with Part two of our Q&A which we'll cover a little Matty chapter 16.
1:36:17
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, we'll see you then.