Latest / Neighbourly: Real Stories of Care and Community / Leading Differently Together | APEST Series Introduction With Zach Manntai

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Leading Differently Together | APEST Series Introduction With Zach Manntai · Neighbourly: Real Stories of Care and Community

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What does loving your neighbor actually look like? This
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is Journey with Care, where curious Canadians get inspired
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to love others well through real life stories and honest
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conversations.
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Hey, curious Toejourners. We're kicking off a new series today,
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Leading Differently Together. I'm so glad you're coming on this journey
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as we meet up with some fascinating Canadians who embody our new
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series Leading Differently Together. Ephesians 411
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and 12 says he gave some to be apostles, prophets,
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evangelists, shepherds, and teachers To equip the saints for the
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work of the ministry for building up the body of Christ. So what does
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this look like for Canada? You'll have to listen to find out because we're gonna
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gain new imagination and appreciation for the ways our
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featured guests are boldly impacting their communities across
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Canada living out these exact qualities that Ephesians
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4:11:12 talk about, the apostles, prophets, evangelists,
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shepherds, and teachers. We often refer to it in our series as APES,
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the the acronym of all those 5. I'm your host, Wendy Park.
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And in studio today, we have a special guest from Calgary, Alberta, Zach
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Manntai. To kick us off in the series, Zach, welcome to the
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podcast. Thanks so much, Wendy. Love to be with
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you. And how are things in Calgary today? You know
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what? We're a blustery blooming 10
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degrees Celsius. It is a beautiful day. And you know what?
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I think that there's some amazing conversations happening across
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the country. And here in Western Canada, there's Just some amazing stuff that
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god is revealing and opening up people's eyes to, and I'm grateful to be a
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part of the conversation today. Well, I'm so glad to have you. I know
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we were introduced, not too long ago within this last year.
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And when I looked up your profile On LinkedIn, and
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we we did have that conversation. What grabbed my attention right away
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was your description of disruptor You're extraordinaire, and that
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resonated with me. And I'm like, yeah. This guy, I do
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want to meet. You are doing some extraordinary things in in Calgary,
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Specifically for the city and whatnot, can you tell us a little bit more
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about what gets you up in the morning? You betcha.
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Disruptor extraordinaire, Canoe Tipper. Often when you're with
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me, things don't stay, simple. And I
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think that When I look at the world around me and the way that god
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has wired me, a lot of the conversations
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are about saying You've heard it said. And I think that when
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Jesus did that throughout the gospels, there was a lot of
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trying to really Bring back what god's intent was.
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And there's been this amazing opportunity in my life, in my vocation, and in my
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personal life to be able to ask the questions.
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Well, that might be the way it is, but is that the way it's supposed
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to be? Is that the way it should be? Is that the way that brings
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blessing and hope into the people's lives around Me and
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sometimes the answer is no. And are we willing to
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wrestle with that and understand it? One of the things that kind of always
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makes me chuckle when I think about The early church fathers,
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they didn't have this long list of things. They only had the old
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testament. They had the Torah to Kind of reflect on. And so today,
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we have, like, literally 2000 years of additional
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conversations and additional things. And when we acknowledge the fact
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that people have been wrestling with the truths of God as as they've
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revealed through scripture and through creation over the years
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that sometimes we need to sit back and wrestle with it a little bit more.
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And whether you like me or not is sometimes dependent on whether or
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not you like to wrestle with me. Sometimes, like, with Jacob being God,
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you don't walk the same afterwards. But, you know, hopefully,
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we're all better for it. Well, Zach, I think we're a dangerous combination to
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kick off this series because there's a lot we could dive into that Ephesians
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4. You have background in in church ministry,
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a lot of background in that. You have been a pastor prior
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to the work you're doing now. Can you tell us a little bit about
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your journey into faith and where it's led you
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today? Yeah. One of the struggles when I think about,
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you know, let's get, somebody's testimony is that it it
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feels like you're looking for a a single point in time where
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God did something and life was always perfect after that.
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And, I accept the mess, I think, in my own
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life. I come from a a broken home. I come from a a
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family that both tried and
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failed often at being What god intended.
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My mother has dealt with many different things
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over the years. I'm adopted into a a new family. And When
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I was grafted into a, Pentecostal charismatic church
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at an early age, I had already felt the sense of
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god's hand on my life. There is this understanding of
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my father, both earthly, my adopted and biological were
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not necessarily Perfect. But there was this intimate
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relationship with the creator, with the heavenly father that I think
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really formed a lot of the ways that I now view the world.
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But a lot of that sense of god, where are you moving and how do
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I follow in your footsteps? When Jesus
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says, Why were you worried? I was just about my father's business. That's been a
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bit of the foundation for a bit of my life where sometimes I
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like the disruptor extraordinaire, I'm found to be outside
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of the box thinking Wendi really all I feel like I'm doing is is doing
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my father's business. And so, I was raised up in Edmonton,
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in a in a Pentecostal church that that really tried to
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anchor itself in good strong teaching, in good
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strong worship. Music and the word were anchors
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in our life, but There always felt like there is this sense of
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and then what. And I think that while I was raised,
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the the language in the in the early nineties was a fivefold ministry.
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That mindset of taking all 5 of these gifts into practice,
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often it didn't fully see itself realized in
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the, priesthood and kingship of all believers.
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It was more akin to there were some that were given these
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gifts. There were some that were elevated to the office of apostle
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or prophet, And they were put on a pedestal. We would do these
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things called presbytery where, I know that
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terminology is used differently in in different denominations. But in the Pentecostal
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tradition I was raised in, it was akin to, a prophetic ministry coming
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into town, and you sitting under these prophets that were seen as God's
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anointed man APEST like in the Old Testament rather
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than what I would say some of the more nuanced
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expression that you and I will talk about a bit Today is that sense of,
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like, we were called in a leadership capacity, I believe,
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you and I today and and others in ministry and not,
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To encourage and empower all members of
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the church to understand their giftings in these ways. And so
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that wrestling I had Really pushed me into
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both a practical ministry where I was serving in
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social services, in emergency medicine, in different
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spaces is where I was hands and feet of Jesus, but also
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always trying to hold my faith and works
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intention And saying, god, you are moving in the way I
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am serving in your church with the people in my community as
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well as in the way that my vocation and the way that my Paycheck and
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my mortgage is paid. So would you say you sort of
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naturally fell into or fit into
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some of these wirings of leadership styles, that apostolic,
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possibly prophetic. We can go into that. Or did you try
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Other forms that just didn't fit and it rubbed you the wrong way. How did
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you come to really live in this outside the box thinking and
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embrace it? Because it let's face it often in the church that
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is a bit threatening, speaking as one like you,
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that it it might not fit within the teaching, shepherding
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kind of context of a comfortable
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congregation. Very good point. I would
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say I have always attempted to,
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by wearing my heart on my sleeve, Say,
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like, I am fully embedded into my beliefs. And
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so I never would have used the language of apostle or prophet
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or evangelist in who in identifying who I am because I would
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see more the outputs. And in the
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charismatic sense, it's like, Where is holy spirit leading? Where am I
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flowing into? But it was more a matter of
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saying I am, some would say, naturally
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More a helper. But when I would do things like in,
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you know, when you do those personality tests or you're doing vocational assessments
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before you're Going off into colleges, it's like, who am
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I? And it would almost always come to, like, this sense of helper, but more
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than just helper. There was a, Myers Briggs that I
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did probably 20 years ago, and the name still the the title
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for my personality type, I say, with scare quotes, was a
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teacher idealist because I would see myself both as someone who
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saw what was possible, the potential, And
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seek to be there, but also to raise up and walk
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alongside those to help create that potential. And
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so about 5 years ago, I did Alan Hirsch's
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five q assessment. And I think when you and I were talking
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about where we scored on that, I am high
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apostolic prophetic scoring based on my responses, and
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it fits when you start thinking about it through the lens of APEST.
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But at the time, it was, it was a natural
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expression of my identity, of who I saw god making me
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and giving me those skills, Those affinities. And I think it
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was a very interesting way to then say, like, vocationally and
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spiritually, it's easier to just say you're this
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job. This is you're an evangelist or you're a bricklayer
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and just leave it at that. And I think one of the things that
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I know you and I Probably would say is that
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in that sense of focusing as the church
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often has done over the last 2 centuries, Focusing
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on shepherd and teacher as really the office of APEST,
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where someone's job in a
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Role is to either be educated as a theologian
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or to take care of a congregation.
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Left much of these other gifts as
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outside of the box. And coming back to that disruptor
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extraordinaire, Not something that people wanted because you had a system
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that worked. You had a system that was predictable. You had a system that allowed
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for those things. And when I would sit with church leadership
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and say things like, we believe these things
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aspirationally in scripture, we we feel called to live in this
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way and yet we don't, let us
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encourage and equip and release, well, then
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We don't have control over those people. We lose our
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volunteers. We lose our our, tithe base sometimes.
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Right. And we we have this tension too of the office
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of pastor and the institutional church, which It's just a
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an organizational way of bringing the church together. That in itself
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isn't bad at all, but we also have to look at the tension with
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the Priesthood of all believers. And when we talk about the apostolic
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gift, we're not necessarily talking capital a, coming
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apostle, Coming through town and doing some
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signs and wonders and great things, there may be some APEST
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specific lens of how we look at, And and we are all kind
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of part of the body of Christ. And going back to Ephesians
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411 and 12, why do we have these 5 things, the
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apostles, prophets, Evangelist, shepherds, and teachers thinking priesthood
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of all believers, it's to equip the
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saints for the work of the ministry. It's not to sit on our pedestals
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and say I am this, and I'm gonna sit in this office. And it also
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says for building up the body of Christ. And One of the
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things that I'm excited about this series is that we're gonna dive into
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those 5 different titles that Ephesians 4 refers
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to and hear people's stories Zach they've lived
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in these giftings and what it looks like and what
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maybe in immaturity it might look like as we need to mature as
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believers, but have A place in the church to
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exercise these needed gifts because one of the things that you and I have
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talked about in the past is that we need all 5. Absolutely. To be a
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healthy church, to see any good revivals happen,
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to see any movements happen, there's always elements of all 5
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things. And so I know this is gonna touch on some of our audience's heart.
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They want a healthy church. We want healthy communities where the church is attuned and
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vibrant and And alive and well and impacting their
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cities, but then we're gonna have to pay attention to where do we fit in,
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what is god creating me to do And, b, more than anything,
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and how does that affect how do I live out my theology and my
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understanding of who god has created? So really looking at that
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Leadership diversity around the table that there's a place for
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everyone, not just the the typical one that we often
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hire, that we vote in to leadership. But what does it
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look like for you and for I and that other person listening in
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thinking, k. Where do I fit in? Do I fit in? And how can I
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best serve, equip others, and build up the
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body of Christ for the service of others? Any thoughts on that?
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Well and I think that this is this is what it's been really difficult for
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someone like myself. So some Some of your listeners might
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be familiar with the the language of bivocational or co vocational
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pastoral ministry. I have sat in Church planting
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roles. I've sat in formal pastoral roles in in congregations.
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And more recently, I've spent a lot of my time more in
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the, quote, unquote marketplace where I work
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and and employ myself to do a job, where at the
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same time, I'm Serving in a local congregation,
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helping build up a small community of of believers to try and walk
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this out. Because of that, It is easy for me
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to throw shade against someone whose job is to
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be a traditional pastor within an evangelical church in
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North America, Where your job is to functionally
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act as both CEO for a congregation, for a business,
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and prepare things like sermons and manage staff, and
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that's your job as a pastor. And yet I
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acknowledge that the tension then that sits in is
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Any of the conversation about trying to create a leadership
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diversity that has more apostolic when we talk about
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apostolic, we're talking about lifting up, Envisioning
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pioneering ideas. Well, that challenges,
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perhaps, maybe the budgetary requirements of the church pastor.
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Maybe it requires more volunteer hours or or things that
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are not easy to manage when you're stuck
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in a nonprofit Scarcity mindset. And
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so whether you're trying to simply keep the ship that you
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have as a pastor in a local church Afloat, whether
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you're trying to keep your healthy people in that
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shepherding mindsets present, The tension is any
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of these more, I think you use the term disruptive
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often, leadership types Will make it
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actually difficult for the existing
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status quo. And so what has been very interesting, I think, when I
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look at A lot of what we call disciple making movements or
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DMMs around the world, much of their
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focus is around these disruptive, leadership types, the
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apostolic, prophetic, and evangelistic personalities,
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because the skill sets within those individuals are the ones that
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create Shifts. When we're talking about the the house churches in
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China, when we're talking about some of these beautiful expressions of faith
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in Africa, When we're talking about missionaries living in Muslim majority
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countries, you won't survive as a shepherd
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teacher in those environments. You won't. And so when
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we look at the Western church in Canada and in in Europe,
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there is a a question around, How do we
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bring in a a different style of leadership,
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both bringing a pest in, in a more holistic
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approach to How we hire, what skills we need at the table, but
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also perhaps away from a single
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pope within a church, A single bishop, a single pastor
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who has the full authority of of god
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in that space. And there are many denominations that work
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very hard to remove that. There are some denominations that have
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gone so far as to make the pastor almost more of a
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employee of a board that tries to manage it, to try and make sure that
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they don't have a single, I guess point of
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failure, but also a single responsibility. Like, I I've been an
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executive director, and I can tell you, It is not easy to try
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and manage an organization. And if I was also thinking
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about their spiritual health and And all of the performances
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that go into a Sunday gathering, my goodness. Like, that that is a
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lot of weight to place on somebody, and that is what many of the pastors
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across North America are doing. They're effectively an
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executive director of a nonprofit and the performance
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manager for a small play and performance theater
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Every Sunday. And so when we're expecting that of
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them, I don't want them to feel like they are
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Failing, but I think our expectations are wrong.
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Unrealistic. Right? And we're gonna go through what those five
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types of leadership are in a little bit of detail. We're gonna,
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obviously, in the the subsequent series, interview different people with those
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giftings and get their insight. Lovely. But What I hear you saying and
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what I I've been doing some research myself and experienced in in church
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settings, not only do we want balance, but to have a Healthy
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ecosystem within a church and a community and expression,
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all of it is relational. Absolutely. Any one of those that foregoes the
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relationship Of each other and with God and with
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community, there's always unhealth in that area,
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and and there's a need to be relationally integral. And it
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is hard. Apes, like, I like to refer them, the the apostles,
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prophets, and and evangelists. Yes. They're naturally
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the disruptive APES, but When in relationship with
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others that are comforting the shepherds and the teachers, it actually creates a
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really balanced ecosystem where there's times for
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comfort, but there's also times to be pushed beyond our our own
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comfort towards what could be and towards what god is calling
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us to do, and so I think that's beautiful. So let's just
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go briefly through each one of them. We won't have a lot of
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time today, but let's go through each. For the apostle, how can
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we describe apostleship in a contemporary way? What
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would you say that looks like In the marketplace, in the pew,
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on the pulpit, what does a apostleship look like?
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Well, like you said, sometimes when we think about these terms, We go
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straight to a title. So the title of apostle
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versus the role and the function or the gift of an
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apostolic mindset and approach. And so sometimes we
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think about people within scripture like Paul, where it's like the apostle
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Paul did these things. But When we talk about it in a more
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contemporary perspective, sometimes we're talking about a more entrepreneurial
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perspective. But also somebody who is, I I often
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find apostolic in a coaching mindset because
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they're trying to catalyze change,
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Which is almost always what apostolic ministry comes around,
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and then lift up and bring alongside those
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that are going to create that change with them. They don't need to
20:30
own it. They can be a vision caster. They can
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try and create systemic change by bringing
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the right people to the table. And like Paul,
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I think over 3 years, he planted 7 churches. You don't
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do that as a single individual. You do
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that as a team. And, sure, when you think about him going through
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Asia Minor and and launching these things, he is lifting
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up. He is empowering. He is creating
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new furrowed ground so that others can come alongside
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him and do the other pieces. And so I often think of the apostle
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as someone who is is willing to be the tip of the spear,
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who is willing to take sometimes the brunt of the things because it
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It is it is something they see and believe in and they wanna
21:18
create. And I think that one of the beautiful pieces of that apostolic
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ministry is one that A true apostolic ministry
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requires a sense of community. Much of
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these, like like you said, are healthier when they're in community,
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But some of them can be done more so than others
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as individual. I have the ability in this role to
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do more of this. And so When you have an apostolic individual
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within organization that is like a nonprofit, often they're
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gonna be okay with things like Skunk Works, where you're developing new
21:52
ways of creating the change that you're trying to
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to craft. You're okay with the uncertainty because
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What you see drives you forward. Mhmm. Well,
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Care Impact is a case in point. I lead with apostolic
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vision. What you're saying is, like, uh-huh, uh-huh, And always feeling a sense
22:11
of maybe being a little too much for the church because my mind drove
22:15
me outside the walls and, like, what could be done? Systemic injustice,
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Systemic racism, denominational rivalry, and
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and things like that that I'm apostolic minds can tend to
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Notice those things and say, what could we do differently?
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Always pointing back if we're healthy, always pointing back to the cross and
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to To what we are called as followers of Jesus,
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but thinking, our child welfare system, our social
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construct, What would it look like if the church were equipped and
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connected in this area Yep. To do things differently? What would it look
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like What if Yep. We could do
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reconciliation in a way that was equitable, that was
22:56
just honoring To our indigenous brothers and sisters and
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to the lord Absolutely. What could that look like? And so, yeah, we
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we try new things, and we're okay k to be that awkward presence in the
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room, and so I think that will resonate with a lot of people. And and
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one of the fears that I have is that some people will feel that
23:14
urgency, But be conditioned to not say too much because
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that's not being Christian or not being nice to rock the boat and saying what
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if. We need the what ifs, Obviously, to grow in maturity.
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Because if we're not growing in maturity, but we've gotta start somewhere.
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Right? Let that be nurtured and discipled within the church. We gotta
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find people that can can nurture. I I found those people that
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supported me growing up into this what if
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feeling I've always seen something out there. But without that, we
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can be bulldozers. Without that, we can just be impatient
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entrepreneurs and say, Who needs a church? They're too slow to
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just do this and that on our own. No. We do need the the the
23:53
body of Christ. And so it's just that call into relationship
23:57
with others Who might rub you the wrong way, but they may be the people
24:01
that we need. So I would say we need diversity to
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mature us, but we also need to see other people further along
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In our giftings of the apostolic gifting to help nurture that
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and not think that we have 3 heads because sometimes that's what it feels like.
24:16
100%. And I think that that unhealthiness can sometimes be a
24:20
bulldozer that takes out people and lets the
24:24
the dream of the vision of the what if Destroy
24:27
relationships. And and this is where that sense
24:32
of interdependence something I was thinking about earlier.
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I've been talking to somebody about when we collaborate
24:39
with others, whether we agree with them fully or not, There's a sense
24:43
of that mutual submission and interdependency that comes from things.
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An unhealthy apostle will not have that. They will simply
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say, My will be done. I know what's best.
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You're in my way. But a healthy
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apostle is Using that kind of coaching metaphor
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is seeing success through the eyes of those
25:06
walking with them. And their success is as
25:09
important as the end result that you're trying to
25:13
create. Paul could not have been the apostle that
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he was by forcing others to conform
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and bulldozing through them. He could only be APES
25:24
successful as those that he poured into and lifted up as he walked
25:28
this out. And so much of our, I
25:32
think, disciple making, brokenness
25:35
within the North American church comes from a lack of understanding,
25:39
of the apostolic gifting, where within a healthy
25:43
church, The APEST mindset says, I
25:47
see where we are going and where we,
25:51
have Hope towards, and I draw those
25:55
along with me, and we co develop this vision
25:59
together. And we all grow through this In a way that
26:03
simply a a teacher that tells everybody to sit and take notes,
26:07
won't. Or a shepherd whose focus is on everybody being happy and
26:11
safe, Won't. The the apostle says things
26:14
might be rough. They won't be perfect. It won't even be
26:18
a perfect Vision of what things might
26:22
be won't be revealed to us right now. But because we're doing this
26:26
together, because we're coming alongside, where god is
26:29
revealing themselves here in our neighborhood, in our city, in our in our
26:33
context is worth going, and that is something that then they work
26:36
along they bring together, and it's beautiful.
26:40
And they speak courage into a congregation. They speak courage to
26:44
try new things, And we need the apostolic vision amongst us
26:48
to be courageous, to try new things, and for the
26:51
the flourishing of that congregation that they will then in
26:55
Turn, look, and say, wow. We just did that. I would have never thought of
26:58
it, but the apostolic will do that. Hey, prophet. Let let's go
27:02
through the prophetic. What do we mean by the prophetic? I know that word can
27:06
be thrown around in a numerous different ways, but for
27:10
context of understanding this passage, what are we referring to in standing this passage. What
27:12
are we referring to in prophetic? So one of the
27:16
tensions, again, like with the apostle, is that we often think
27:20
of prophet in the sense of someone who has a word from God and
27:23
is they're speaking a revelatory piece of of
27:27
text or language or vision To the people. And that's not always
27:31
true. Often, what prophets did in the
27:34
Old Testament and I think what Paul is very much trying to highlight
27:38
is their ability to speak truth. And so they see truth
27:42
where others might not. They see into a thing and a
27:45
place and a people That sometimes is a direct revelation
27:49
of god like that, where it's like I see, someone
27:53
coming down the road as As a metaphor of of
27:57
what's coming, and this is now going to help us understand what the
28:00
deeper truth of God is. But it's almost always trying to point people back
28:04
to the truth And pointing people back to god. And so that
28:08
truth and understanding of our identity in god
28:12
becomes such a beautiful thing. And, absolutely, god uses
28:16
prophetic revelation throughout church history, throughout the Old Testament
28:20
to draw his people back to himself. But
28:23
sometimes in our current state, we we forget what does it mean to
28:27
be that. So we talk about John the Baptist being one of these great
28:31
prophets And really last prophets
28:34
in the Old Testament style. And so he spoke truth to power
28:38
whether it was to Herod, Whether it was to the Pharisees calling out their
28:42
hypocrisy, he spoke truth to Jesus
28:45
saying, you are The son of man. You are the one who
28:49
I've been calling these people to to look out for. And so
28:53
there's that crazy wild hair with,
28:56
The big shoulders kind of mindset. But I think one
29:00
of the things that's really interesting is when you think about other prophetic,
29:05
expressions were more akin to Anna and how she Mhmm.
29:09
She heard the voice of god. And so this this sense
29:13
of how She was waiting for the truth. She
29:16
was sitting and waiting for the Messiah to come. And
29:20
when she saw Mary and Joseph coming To
29:24
dedicate Jesus at the temple, she knew that to be true,
29:28
and she was able to see past what is sometimes
29:31
our earthly haze. There is a sense of saying,
29:35
god, where are you moving? Where are you showing me
29:38
truth? And, again, when we see this in concert
29:42
With these other giftings, it's how are you revealing yourself to us, god?
29:46
And then the action becomes often through the other giftings. They're good
29:50
learners. Like, they're they're more students Then they are the the teacher
29:53
teaches another gifting. They're all listening to what god is saying and to
29:57
what they're reading can read culture. They can read
30:01
environments, And they're very attuned and sort of point us to
30:04
the true north. I think of it sometimes you know those speeches you think
30:08
of when you're maybe in the shower or Or walking the dog, and it
30:12
just comes out perfectly. Like, I think most people can relate. They're like, oh,
30:16
this is how I'm gonna tell my boss, or this is how I'm gonna Speak
30:20
this thing out, and it just comes out perfectly. What I say about the
30:23
prophetic often is that those with this gift that have honed in on it, They're
30:27
not just thinking it in the shower. They're able to say it in the moment.
30:31
And sometimes we have to bridle that and learn how to do with gentleness and
30:34
tactfulness or whatever, but what we're saying is probably write. We just
30:38
sometimes people aren't ready to hear the truth and can come out sharply, and
30:42
so I'm learning to figure that out. But that prophetic
30:46
voice will cut right to the chase and say that shower speech
30:49
right dead on. And sometimes I get mistaken, like, oh, could you teach this class?
30:53
I'm like, I suck at teaching. I'm just a student telling you what
30:57
I'm thinking. We still need to lean into those other giftings.
31:01
Absolutely. And this is why it's so easy to think about these
31:05
as, as we go through them as a single
31:08
entity. Wendy is x, and that is all
31:12
she is. And I know it's very
31:16
easy to do that. It's binary or or just
31:19
easily compartmentalized. I think that one of the things that
31:23
maybe we could have talked about earlier is the reality of most of us flow
31:27
through these things in different capacities, That's right. Strengths
31:31
throughout our life. And so if you are truly healthy,
31:34
being a prophet that spends time alone with God that listens to heavenly
31:38
father, that is listening to Holy Spirit, that is actively looking for
31:42
the truth in the spaces that you inhabit, You're
31:46
able to then have that shepherding mindset when you come and speak
31:50
that truth. And and we talk about thing speaking truth to power, but it's
31:53
also speaking truth in love And saying, this is what I
31:57
see, and I love you. And sometimes that's hard.
32:01
It's funny. Being obedient to the truth,
32:05
like you said, doesn't always just mean blurting out the truth.
32:09
Obedience in this role and this responsibility is
32:13
saying, god, how best can I bring forward your
32:17
truth and revelation? And I think that that is such an important thing
32:20
because I know that it it it can easily go the inverse
32:24
and become a completely Disruptive in a harmful
32:28
way to the group and actually undo,
32:32
perhaps, what you were attempting to create. That's right.
32:36
Yeah. And it it could be weaponized, any of these in isolation. Sure.
32:39
And we tend to vacillate in certain areas, and
32:43
and I'll put some links in the show notes For people to listen to if
32:46
they're curious about their own giftings. Some of this might be relevant,
32:50
Tori, just through listening. They might like, oh, yeah. I I fall into these
32:54
kind of Areas more often, but you're right.
32:57
We we can have a variety of giftings,
33:00
together. Let's look at the evangelist, briefly. I have
33:04
a mentality of what an evangelist looks like. I think of Billy Graham. I
33:08
think of the the crusades and Zach. And some of it
33:12
adds a little cringe value to, like, oh, no. Lord, please don't give me
33:16
evangelist giftings. But when I look it through scripture,
33:20
it actually has so much More than that. Absolutely. How would
33:23
you give a contemporary version of what an evangelist is or
33:27
somebody with that gifting? So sometimes
33:30
in the business world, they actually have started hiring,
33:34
roles for, like, a brand evangelist. And it's interesting.
33:38
What I find the best way to describe a contemporary evangelist
33:42
would be to think of someone who embodies the
33:45
ethos and the the desires of a concept
33:49
and can't wait and just innately
33:54
exudes that to those around them. Sometimes my
33:57
friends talk about me as, like, a a technology evangelist or or
34:01
even an Apple evangelist, but one of the things that's True about it
34:04
is that I believe in, in the thing that I'm talking about,
34:08
and I do it in a way so that when you and I are talking
34:12
about something going on in your life, It's natural for me
34:15
to talk about how I might come up with a solution because I saw something.
34:19
I heard something. It's embodied in me. Mhmm. And because of
34:22
that, I can be a natural salesman. I can see those kinds of
34:26
things. And when we talk about, like, these these evangelists, like Wendi
34:30
Peter brings these Thousands of people to bear on on
34:33
something. I don't actually think that that's always the best version of what
34:37
we would consider an evangelist. A good friend, Bill Hogg,
34:41
he's working on a project where, actually,
34:44
this month, they're having An evangelist conference here
34:48
in Calgary called, The Message Advance. And one of the
34:52
interesting pieces about it is that you have different people with
34:55
different ways of being an evangelist, but the one
34:59
core thing through all of them is that you can't stop them
35:03
from talking about the good news, And that is what's
35:07
core to them. It it is bubbling over, and
35:10
every conversation somehow, some way Comes back to
35:14
Jesus, and it is beautiful, and it is not
35:18
necessarily for everyone. There are some people who are
35:21
just They APES put in that way that
35:25
because of their passion and their love for the
35:29
individual, for the situation, for the people around them, It it is
35:33
just amazing. And, like, you think about the, street corner evangelist,
35:37
and it's like they're just yelling truth. That is not
35:41
A good, healthy evangelist. That is somebody who wants to tell you everything that that's
35:45
wrong with you. A true, healthy evangelist is saying, I love you,
35:48
and because I love you, You need to know this truth.
35:53
And I got the cure to cancer type of thing. Like, there's just something
35:56
good. And I think the the operative word here is good news and
36:00
Sharing good news. Sometimes we've limited it to fire
36:04
insurance Uh-huh. To I can keep you from hell, can keep you
36:08
from condemnation to good news as being good news
36:11
for all people in all circumstances. Jesus spread good
36:15
news. He operates in all 5, by the way. But Jesus
36:19
shared good news in how he healed the leper, how he spoke to that
36:22
woman That was condemned and how he was just there's
36:26
social good news. There's technical good news. Like,
36:30
there's ways of just bringing Alignment and
36:33
kingdom values to what we do that galvanizes people for the
36:37
flourishing of community, that is good news. And it
36:41
doesn't take away from salvation. It doesn't take away from Christ. It's just like
36:45
Christ is so much more than those 4 points
36:49
on your Zach. It's so much more. It's funny though
36:52
because my mom and I I I used to drive,
36:56
like, thousands of kilometers a month, and I would just call my mom
36:59
sometimes. And as someone who who was raised Catholic
37:04
and then became a charismatic Pentecostal later on in
37:07
life, she really embraced some of that. Like, I
37:11
was raised on thief in the night and kind of like that.
37:14
Like, Premillennial dispensationalism was, like, core to it. She
37:18
was, like, feeding me. Left behind books as soon as they were coming out. But
37:22
there was this this thing about, like, That was the point was that
37:26
I was supposed to go out and tell people about Jesus so they don't go
37:29
to hell. I was supposed to go out and tell people about
37:33
Jesus Because if I didn't, it was their end
37:37
of life. One of the things that I'll say God revealed to me was
37:40
this mindset of, So when Jesus sent out the 72,
37:45
what was the gospel that he was calling
37:49
Them to proclaim what was the good news. What was
37:53
it? Because guess what? He hadn't died yet. It wasn't Jesus has
37:56
died for your Zach, come to heaven. It was
38:00
something different, and this mindset of the good news should be
38:04
the first thing. An acknowledgment of a brokenness of
38:07
creation, a reconciling redemptive god who
38:11
comes into creation to make right what was
38:15
wronged. That was the good news. I have come
38:19
to give life and life more abundantly. Well, that's
38:22
beautiful. And if that was the guy on the the soapbox on the
38:26
street corner yelling at people saying, you are loved.
38:30
Jesus loves you. Guess what? There'd probably be a slightly
38:33
different response to it Yeah. Than you're going to hell, you
38:37
sinner. And I I I just I struggle with that because
38:41
If there isn't love underneath it, the evangelist is just
38:45
unhealthy and broken and is is not actually doing
38:49
a good job at Proclaiming the good news. And it it's like it
38:53
almost becomes like a bait and switch, where it's like, what are you actually
38:57
selling me? Because if it's not the good news of a redemptive
39:00
reconciliation creator coming to Earth to make
39:04
right all of creation and offer us a chance at
39:07
Restoration. Then, really, what is this
39:11
all about? And so, like, that, like, forceful,
39:15
like, Handing out Zach and yelling at people in the face. That
39:18
isn't being an evangelist. Sorry to say that, guys. If you if you turn off
39:22
the podcast now because I've I've offended you. I'm sorry. But I I'm telling
39:26
you, that is not it. And when you think about that value within the
39:29
church, it's saying it's infectious.
39:33
It's saying these are people that cannot stop
39:38
sharing the love of God to everyone around them I want what they have.
39:42
In novel ways. Exactly. That's what brings
39:45
life sometimes into the church is the evangelist. Because it's like, you know
39:49
what? When you're around them, Everything seems a
39:53
little bit brighter because they're just like, have you heard the good news?
39:57
This is amazing, and that's beautiful, I think. I can't wait to
40:01
get into that conversation. I have a wonderful guest that, will
40:04
exemplify this well. Let's move on to shepherd.
40:08
We Think of a a shepherd with sheep, but we also think of a
40:12
pastoral shepherd. God is the good shepherd. But as
40:16
a gifting within the church, we've already alluded to that that That is
40:19
often, the person in care ministries or pastoral
40:23
ministries within the church. Can you give me a little bit of a synopsis
40:27
of of what shepherding could look like today.
40:30
Totally. And in different translations, that that
40:34
title, like, pastor has been, like, Often aligned with
40:38
Shepherd. And so the concept of coming in and being a shepherd within
40:42
a a congregational setting is very different than I
40:45
think what the shepherding ethos is. Those that are drawn
40:49
towards, like you said, care ministries where they're going into nursing
40:53
or going into social work or simply saying, I want to be a
40:56
part of the the health and the
41:00
Sometimes mundane parts of life, they matter
41:04
to those people. They're the ones that set up the meal trains when a
41:07
family is is having a new baby. They they're the ones that are the 1st
41:11
to check-in on you after, a loss of a family member because
41:15
they are content And happy to sit with
41:19
you holding your hand and say, I am with
41:22
you. You're not alone. And so sometimes that, like, that can
41:26
come into, like, encouragements and empathy, but it it really
41:30
embraces that sense of I am with you. And I think
41:34
that when we turn Shepherd into I need to protect
41:37
you from everything in order to make that, like a helicopter parent, It
41:41
can become difficult because I know working in a psychiatric
41:45
hospital, one of the biggest things is that you need to challenge people. You
41:49
need to give them Opportunities for growth, and a healthy
41:53
individual, a healthy shepherd Zach accepting of that and is
41:56
challenging people in the spaces that they are To say, hey. Healthy
42:00
might look like this. Let's go for a walk. You don't wanna get out of
42:04
your house. I'm gonna show up at your house, and we're gonna go for a
42:07
walk. Right. They have this healthy sense of really nurturing and making
42:10
people safe. Yep. Yet, not just being the massage therapist, but they're giving
42:14
them exercises to to work through some of those tensions, to work through their
42:18
anxiety, through those difficulties so that they have agency as
42:21
well rather than just enabling codependent.
42:26
I'm not strong in shepherding, I would be the 1st to admit.
42:29
However, I think this is, appropriate. I just feel A
42:33
call out to women. A lot of women have a
42:37
shepherding pastoral heart that may not feel they have
42:40
office of pastor within their denomination Or on the
42:44
stage, shepherding is so much more than what we have delegated it
42:48
to in a in election process. If you have a shepherding
42:52
heart, a pastoral heart as women, we need you
42:55
because the female pastoral heart Sees things and nurtures in different ways,
42:59
and I don't wanna get too gender stereotypical. Mhmm. But I think sometimes we
43:03
pigeonhole it into a masculine Office
43:06
job of caring and some there's obviously many males that do it
43:10
well, but I feel like we're missing half the church If we're
43:14
we're also not calling that out in people that are already doing it,
43:18
they they just need to live in that and own it. Obviously, with
43:21
humility, but own it as a pastoral. We need these pastoral
43:25
hearts. Well, going back to what we said earlier, This is not
43:29
meant to be a leadership in the sense of I'm a
43:33
staff member. I have a title. I have a an official role.
43:36
These all of these, every single one of these is a gift
43:40
meant to enrich, empower,
43:44
Engage the entire body of God. And and I think
43:48
it's hard when we think about that shepherd in the sense of it's It's
43:52
my job. I'm gonna be the chaplain for this hockey team. I'm
43:56
gonna be this chaplain doing these jobs
43:59
Versus someone who says, no. I'm just I'm
44:03
I'm not mother hen within the church. I want to
44:07
care about you. I noticed you weren't there. I I'm wanting to
44:11
check-in on you. And this is an important part where
44:15
often With the prophetic and the apostolic and the evangelist
44:19
without shepherding mindset either there or someone
44:22
strong in the shepherd, you will Burn people out.
44:26
You will push them away, and you will not
44:30
not care about their current and long term
44:34
health In the same way. And I think that this is one of those things
44:38
that, like we said before, much of the North American
44:41
Western church is Staffed by shepherd teachers.
44:45
Shepherds and teachers. And, oh my goodness, coming out of the the
44:49
pandemic and the need for care, We're gonna go into
44:52
this in that that episode yet, but the need for self care
44:56
beyond just the stereotypical self care, that
45:00
soul care Of a good shepherd. That is so needed. We need to
45:03
uphold these people that are sometimes overused and and
45:07
abused. But Let's go on to teacher, our last one. We're
45:10
running a little long here, but I can't stop us because this is good.
45:14
As far as Teacher, I think it's self explanatory. It's a contemporary
45:18
word we use already, but let's expand our imagination a little bit
45:22
of what do we mean by having that teaching Ability in the
45:25
body of Christ. So one of the things about a teacher is
45:29
somebody that simply sends information,
45:33
one person to another, is not necessarily a teacher. They may
45:36
have the office of teacher, but that doesn't mean that they are gifted in
45:40
teaching. One of the things that's beautiful about the understanding of this in standing of
45:44
this in its in a gifting mindset is that a teacher is someone
45:47
who understands how to convey information
45:51
and expectations in a way that causes the
45:55
individual receiving that information or that expectation to be
45:59
able to act on it, To be able to embody it, to be able to
46:02
take it in. And one of the things that's really interesting is that there are
46:06
websites like rate your professor and and you get to see these
46:09
Amazing professors and and the the world of podcasting,
46:13
again, dating myself. I remember with my 1st iPad
46:17
Listening to podcasts of teachers from across the world
46:21
that were extremely gifted in conveying
46:25
this information. We have the ability to say, like, there
46:29
are some amazingly gifted individuals that we
46:32
have access to around the world that are able to help both take
46:36
complex and difficult topics and make them accessible
46:40
and understandable to the masses. And sometimes
46:44
that puts a lot of pressure on somebody within a local church to say, so
46:48
then what's my job? If I can't be, I don't
46:51
wanna name names. Pick church leader that you listen
46:55
to their podcast. I can't be that, So I'm not
46:59
really that good. It's like, no. Are you in your
47:03
context? Whether you're a Sunday school teacher where you've got 10
47:06
men On a Wednesday night going through some material, do you
47:10
feel empowered and engaged by taking
47:14
in the information and then Bringing it out into a way that
47:17
engages these individuals. And I think that's a really important
47:21
role because a teacher is not just information, it's
47:25
action. And if we want to really go back
47:28
to, healthy disciple making disciples as a
47:32
mindset within our churches, We need teachers who are
47:35
able to say, this is the information in front of us. This is how
47:39
we can can eat it, And this is how we can walk
47:43
it out. Because one of the biggest struggles, I think, has been that
47:47
we have reduced teacher to pulpit ministry
47:51
And listen to me for 45 minutes on a Sunday. And I've
47:55
inoculated you against something, and
47:58
that's all. But, truly, we need our teachers to to
48:02
understand their role within the church as one's taking and
48:06
understanding the Bible, understanding scripture, And being able to bring it
48:09
into a context. One of the the phrases I remember in
48:13
seminary that we used was we were like mother birds at
48:16
times, And we would help preprocess some of this stuff.
48:20
But much in the same way that Paul talks about it, we don't want
48:24
people to stay on milk. We need people to learn how to
48:28
take this and grow. And so as a teacher, sometimes your
48:32
role is saying my role changes over time, or
48:36
I focus on those that are younger in their faith, that are learning about what
48:39
it means to understand their their identity as a follower of the the
48:43
king, And and that is different than someone who is teaching
48:47
university and needs somebody who is gonna be more engaged in a different
48:50
way. And so we need that diversity of both teachers and
48:54
explainers who are able to take that scripture that they
48:57
themselves have processed and and gone through and sat
49:01
in and come into it and say, god,
49:05
where, how, what Do you want me to say
49:09
and do with this? And that, I think, is a beautiful, very
49:12
important part of this because it can easily turn into
49:16
something that is simply Read this and memorize it
49:20
and do a sword drill or or something like that, and that
49:23
isn't truly teaching people anything. It becomes
49:27
a cerebral exercise, and and sometimes that's where we've reduced
49:31
theology into cerebral exercises. And and the teacher at the Front
49:34
knows the Greek or or something some fancy word, and yet if it's not
49:38
disseminated, if it's not something actionable, we we need depth
49:41
of knowledge. But if we can't be brought down to Helping
49:45
transformation, helping that rejuvenation and that
49:49
awakening within the church, we're missing the point. And so I've
49:53
sat under, the Teachings of good teachers,
49:56
and my goodness, do they bring the word of god alive? Do they make
50:00
cultural anthropology alive? Do they make sociology,
50:04
psychology, all these things that we don't have to be afraid of knowledge.
50:07
We just need good teachers from within the body of Christ that are
50:11
centered on Christ To bring it into alignment, what does this
50:15
mean for me as a follower of Christ? We we went through
50:19
a lot, And I feel like there's so much more,
50:23
and there will be so much more in the subsequent episodes. I I'm looking
50:27
forward to hosting new guests, each week,
50:30
And I hope that you can follow with us. Thank you so much, Zach,
50:34
for unpacking a wealth of information, giving us a
50:38
lot to think about. Any last words of wisdom? I'm
50:41
gonna put your your links in the show notes as well as some some links
50:45
to some good resources that people might be interested in. But Any final
50:49
words for you? I would just draw us back to
50:52
Ephesians 4 and and really this understanding of This
50:56
is meant to create I'm reading the NLT right now.
51:00
The responsibility of these gifts is to equip God's people to do
51:04
his work and to build up the church, The body of Christ. And
51:07
if we see each of these as both
51:11
equal and necessary parts of a healthy
51:15
body, We understand then the need to have
51:19
each of these working in unison together. And without
51:22
that, it it is an unhealthy, Broken
51:27
church. And and I'm not just talking institutional. I'm not just talking
51:31
local. I'm talking about the the whole body of Christ becomes unhealthy.
51:35
And I think as we continue to explore this over the the
51:39
coming weeks, I encourage people to to really wrestle with
51:43
How do I engage people that are not like me, that are
51:47
gifted in other ways without it being an adversarial relationship?
51:51
And to allow for disruption and encouragement
51:55
to come from these other gifts. Because as we do that, we
51:58
are So much more healthy. And
52:02
just as the the trinity is an expression of the interdependence
52:06
and and mutual servants Of god themselves,
52:10
I want us to view these kinds of giftings in the same way. As
52:14
each of these serves and lifts up the other, We
52:18
will be a more accurate representation
52:22
of God on earth. And that, my friends,
52:26
is how we are gonna lead differently together.
52:30
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