Latest / The Virtual Couch / Finding Harmony in Uncertainty: Musician Ian McConnell on Navigating a Faith Transition, Acceptance, and Self-Discover

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Finding Harmony in Uncertainty: Musician Ian McConnell on Navigating a Faith Transition, Acceptance, and Self-Discover · The Virtual Couch

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Music.
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Hey everybody, welcome to episode 426 of The Virtual Couch. I'm your host, Tony Overbay.
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I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist and excited to get right to the topic at hand today.
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So there's a famous quote by Carl Rogers, who was one of the founders of humanistic psychology.
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And the quote goes something like this, the curious paradox.
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So the curious paradox is that when I accept myself just as I am, then I can change.
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And I think this quote just perfectly sums up the paradoxical nature of acceptance,
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accepting yourself and becoming a real motivating factor for actual personal growth and change.
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But what I really love about this is if we follow up from the episode last week
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where I shared the selfish side of shame, where we still have this default setting
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to go to what's wrong with me, I'm a big piece of garbage as a way to improve
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our situation in life rather than a place of self-acceptance.
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So Rogers suggests that self-acceptance rather than the self-criticism or attempts
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to force something to happen, force change, that that's what creates the psychological
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conditions that are necessary for actual growth and actual transformation.
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And Russ Harris, one of my very favorite authors, says the more that we try
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to avoid the negative experiences of life, the more that we struggle.
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So today I am interviewing Ian McConnell.
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Ian McConnell is a songwriter. He's a musician. At first I thought he was a
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comedian who just happened to sing, but it turns out he's a a songwriter who is also pretty funny.
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But in this conversation, I think that we cover so many different things.
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We talked, obviously, about music.
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We talked about creativity. We talked about personal growth.
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We talked about mental health. We talked about therapy.
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And there are a lot of things that I think come through in this interview,
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especially for people who are fans of mental health podcasts or things like The Virtual Couch.
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Because we talk about the concept of experiencing a crisis, a crisis of faith,
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or it could even be a crisis of your own worldview.
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And Ian talks open about how that impacted everything in his life,
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especially his creative pursuits and how that impacted his personal growth.
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We talk about the challenge of finding motivation and purpose after you let
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go of certain beliefs or ideals, which can be really scary.
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As somebody who works with people that are navigating faith journeys and faith
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transitions on a daily basis,
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you often find that when people let go of some of that certainty,
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all of a sudden that uncertainty feels incredibly uncomfortable and boy,
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we are not wired to deal with the discomfort very well. So Ian and I talk a bit about that.
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And he also talks about the balance of this desire for external validation,
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whether we talked about it from parents or in a relationship.
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With staying true to your authentic self. And especially as somebody who creates art,
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who writes songs, how he needs to really find his own voice in order to be more,
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and it's not even successful, but to be able to really feel like he's working
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in more alignment with who he is as a person.
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And then I really appreciate it. We talked a lot about the ups and downs of
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social media success and how social media has impacted relationships that we
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have with ourselves, with our work and with our own self-image.
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And Ian has a very large social media presence. I think when we were going to
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press here, it sounds so fancy.
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As I'm recording this morning, 700,000 followers, I believe on TikTok,
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maybe 400,000 or 500,000 on Instagram, a lot on YouTube.
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And so he has definitely dealt with a lot of feedback from people.
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And he talks about that in the interview.
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But I think that we touch on one of my very favorite concepts,
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acceptance versus apathy.
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Acceptance means to take in without defense in its entirety.
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And how that doesn't mean if I accept who I am or I accept where I'm at in life,
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that That means then just back up the floats to the lazy river and just call it a life.
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No, sometimes that acceptance can mean now I've got that pressure off and I
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can just start to be and do.
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And I think Ian does a pretty amazing job at doing that.
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He is kicking off his primary source tour and it starts August 16th. It's in Dallas, Texas.
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But on August 21st, and he's going all over the country. I think there's 24, 25 dates, might be more.
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But on August 21st, Ian is coming to a city very close to me.
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Me, Phoenix, and he will be playing at the Rebel Lounge.
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But honestly, I would hurry and get your tickets if he is coming to a city that
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is even close to you, because I kind of don't want to say this out loud.
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If you're in the area of the Phoenix area, I feel the same way about my beloved Salad and Go.
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Everything is so affordable that I don't want the Salad and Go folks to know
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about it because then they might raise the prices.
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I felt the same way when I went to buy tickets to Ian's show,
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I thought, okay, this is like a really good deal. Where's the catch?
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And there really wasn't one. So I have tickets and I was happy to pay what I
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paid, but it's an incredible deal, especially if you're a fan of live music.
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So if you really like what you hear on the interview today, and if you go check
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him out, go get those tickets.
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And I will be at the Phoenix show. If anybody in the area is going,
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please reach out to me at contact at tonyoverbay.com.
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Let's make plans to say hi, hopefully get a picture with Ian.
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And you can buy tickets through his website, Ian McConnell mcconnellmusic.com
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and that's I-A-N and then we've got a bunch of doubles here m-c-c-o-n-n-e-l-l
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music.com and I'll have the links to Ian's socials also in the show notes or
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just type in Ian McConnell wherever whatever social media platform you like
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and I'm sure that you will find him.
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So with that said let's get on to today's interview with Ian McConnell. Action.
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And so it's funny because I thought when I see you on the phone,
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okay, he's talking to some big Hollywood producer. I didn't know it was Breakmasters.
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No, no, no. Yeah, it's Blue Ridge Automotive telling me I had to replace my
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battery, which was annoying, but not the worst.
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Okay. And then a lot of stuff, they're like, maybe you could do it now.
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You probably don't need to. And I'm like, can I make it 9,000 miles?
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And they're like, this, yes, this, no. I'm like, okay, do that.
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Just do it all because no matter how expensive this is, it is less expensive
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than breaking down in the middle of the desert.
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I can't imagine my door on hold or anything like that.
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Yeah, man, it'll be fine. Ian McConnell, welcome to the virtual couch.
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I know you mentioned the desert and I'm in Phoenix.
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You're coming out to Phoenix and I'll tell the little origin story of reaching out to you.
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And I'm so grateful that you were willing to get on the podcast,
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but I've only been in this Phoenix area for about three or four months and it
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is definitely the desert. 110, 115.
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So we want you to drive in here safely. That'd be a good thing.
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Where did you come from? Where did you Northern California? I'm in a trauma
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bond with the Phoenix area because it's not treating me very well right now,
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but I've been told that the best is yet to come.
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There's eight months where it's going to be nice to me and it's going to be
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really kind. But right now we're putting up with a lot of garbage and we'll see.
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Okay. And then where do you live?
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I live in Georgia right now, just outside of Atlanta. Okay.
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Let's jump into the tour because I'm so fascinated by this. Have you gone on
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tour before? I have. I have. I've done four tours.
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The first two were very, they were, I played only like house shows and bars
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and stuff like that. And I only went out for five days or whatever.
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And then I did two actual tours, headlining tours last year.
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One was seven shows and one was five shows. And both of those went fine.
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They, the first one went up kind of in the Midwest and the second one was all
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East coast, which are kind of my markets. It's okay. I was in Nashville seven years.
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And so kind of staying where I could drive easily and all this stuff.
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But this tour is 26 cities and it's all the way around the country.
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I'm leaving from Atlanta.
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On Wednesday, I guess, I don't know what day this is, but it'll be Wednesday
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the 14th, I'm leaving Atlanta and then I get back to Atlanta on September 21st
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or something like that, having gone all the way up to Seattle,
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to Boston and all that stuff, could be a lot.
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David Pérez- Had, did you have to plan or did you have to, did you get to plan that all yourself?
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Yeah. I have a booking agent who just was like, do you want to play shows in 2024?
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And I was like, yeah. And he's like, where do you want to play?
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I'm like, dude, anywhere that will have me like, let's just kind of party.
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Yeah. Oh. And so he just hooked up a bunch of shows in a row and yeah,
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I'm going to drive my Chevy Malibu all around the country.
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Uh, see how that goes. I'm a big proponent of just kind of learning from the failures on the way.
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So I've done some of my planning and all that kind of stuff.
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I mean, I've performed many, many, many, many, many times.
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And so I feel confident about putting on a good show and all this stuff,
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but I'm sure there are things that I'm neglecting that I'll realize once I get
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to Los Angeles a week and a half in, like, oh man, I really should have thought
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of this, but it'll be fine.
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You figure out on the way. If you believe it'll be fine, then it'll probably
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be fine. And so maybe that's a nice intro to, I've started getting more active
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on TikTok and the TikTok therapy is a thing.
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I've got more videos going out there. So then the more time I'm on TikTok,
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I so want to know what the algorithm was hearing me or seeing me do.
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But then all of a sudden you start popping up.
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And I think when I reached out to you, I said, okay, I really liked the way,
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I don't know if you had an existential crisis.
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I don't know if it was just a very bad breakup, if it was all the above and I can't wait to hear.
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But then I just felt like you were you're really speaking to where I'm I'm at
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as a therapist almost this place where people are trying to just make sense
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we desire certainty so much and.
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Almost like that letting go of the fact that okay what if things don't really
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make sense and there's not a lot of certainty and how that feels so scary until
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it doesn't maybe you are my muse and I'm assuming that those are all the things
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you're going through and so then when I saw that you were on tour and you were
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here and it's in a couple of weeks I literally immediately bought as many tickets as I could.
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I will be there and might even buy another round of tickets.
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I want anybody that is in the Phoenix area to come hang with me and we'll watch Ian.
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And, but then I, now I want to hear everything about, am I off base?
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Was there an existential crisis Ian? Or tell me about what, what motivates you with your songs?
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Oh, yeah. Dude, there's all of it. To me, like, everything that happens is a
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new piece to, like, add in, you know?
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You're talking about, like, you want things to make sense, but you can't make
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sense of them or whatever.
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I believe in, I did have, like, kind of a religious crisis when I was four.
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Or I was, I grew up Presbyterian and I was very like everything I do, I do for the glory of God.
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I am pursuing a godly life. The things that are important to God are the things
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that are important to me.
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And that was great because I didn't have to make any decision for myself about
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what was good with that whole, you know?
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And then I took, I took acid when I was 24 and I was looking at the sky and
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I was just, I just don't feel like if, I mean, there could be this God force,
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all this kind of stuff, But if there is, it doesn't make sense that God would
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have just been waiting around the whole time for the humans to be the important ones, you know?
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And that's where the idea of strong important comes from. I'm not important either.
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We've only been around a short amount of time in relation to the whole thing.
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If there's a God, I can't imagine that it cares at all about anything.
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Caring is kind of something that I feel like we a little bit made up.
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And if it does, why should it care about us more than it cares about other creatures?
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Years in which case what is good and what is bad and all this stuff
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so many that we think of as good are very centered
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on being a human you know and being good like humans
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which is something that i still very much want to do but i
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have to come up with a new motivation because i was on this reward system that
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was just like you do a good thing go to heaven you permanent reward everything
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is perfect and i'm like that is a very nice feeling to have i don't want to
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i think that religion is like a super useful tool that is you know brought people
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together over the years as a community and all this stuff.
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But I feel like now we're in this age where we learn so many things about the
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way that the universe works, that there's new ways, I feel like,
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to find a good life in the world.
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That's really what my pursuit has been. It's like, okay, how do I live a good
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life? How do I live well? Yeah.
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Age where there's a lot of information i'm connected to
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everybody i can communicate with everybody all the time and also
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we're learning so many new things about the universe that just a
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static view of this is the way things are doesn't feel like a
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useful way to interpret the world okay well and i'd love
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that you're writing my shit well it's good because i
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so appreciate that i think that that is i listen to your
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songs you can almost see this evolution of that process
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it feels like even to the point where i think it was
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episode 12 of season 2 do episode 12 is
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i can do it i can do it is not that
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serious which is the one where i talk about it'll be okay yes but they
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kind of go together you know okay well and that's right it's interesting
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because i think when you start at the your first actually i was i'm gonna do
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this deep dive i want to pull this music critic vibe here in a minute like to
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say okay i've got pulled out a bunch of these lyrics i'm so excited to hear
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what led to that but i want to i wanted to say because uh the virtual couch
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i've got a mental health podcast and i've got some very loyal listeners that i love to death.
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And I do a lot with faith deconstruction and faith crisis.
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And so it's interesting because I didn't know that that was part of what you were working through.
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And I love it because it can really feel when people are going through that,
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they feel all of a sudden, and you have a line in one of your songs about,
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was it, I miss religion or I miss the... I miss religion, yeah.
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That spoke to me because so many people then when they go through this,
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they want to go back and just feel like, okay, no, everything makes sense and I know what to do.
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And I love what you said there about it does take a little bit of
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that accountability away because then if i did this
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thing and well i mean god told me to do it
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so it's not not my fault or if something didn't
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work out then what was i supposed to do i think that's a pretty fascinating
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concept so when people go through that faith deconstruction it feels like they're
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just kind of floating out in the in space for a little while and nothing to
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really tether to and that's where i think even in the email i sent you,
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I said, sometimes with clients,
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we'll call it the nothing matters club, but if you welcome someone there too
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soon, they don't think it's a very fun club, but if they, yeah.
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But if they get there over time, it's a pretty fun time. Yeah.
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I posted clips of my song, Important World, where I talk about,
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you know, I'm pretty sure life doesn't have like a meaning, all this stuff.
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And I get, you know, there's always a number of comments that are like,
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what a depressing way to view the world.
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And I'm like, well, I mean, if it is this way, maybe perhaps it's not, I could be wrong.
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I like truly don't believe, especially having like been so firm in my belief of what the
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world works and faith and all this stuff at for most of my life i get really
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hesitant being like this is the way that things are because i'm like dude i
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could be totally wrong i've been,
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dreadfully at least in my view wrong before and i don't want to be like so i
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don't want to hold so tightly into like this is the way that things are but
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if if that is the way that things are that
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nothing like inherently matters
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or whatever then it's only depressing for as long as you You let it be.
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I kind of feel like you kind of just be like, this is the way things are.
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Let's just adapt to our circumstances.
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Humans are super good at adapting to their circumstances. That's why we have
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people of all skin tones living at different latitudes than they were.
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You know, it only came up in this stuff. We figured out ways to live healthily
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and safely in different ways. Yeah.
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It really is. Okay. Now, are you cool if we do a little bit of the,
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let's go all therapist approved, like, okay, mental health, deep dive.
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How long was that process for you though? Where you felt like this,
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did it feel scary for a little while when you deconstructed your faith? What was that like? Yes.
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The process, the way that I generally make decisions is things kind of stew
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underneath for a long time and then they burst forth in clarity at some point. Yeah.
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And so this was one that had been stewing for a while and it had burst forth
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in clarity. I had been feeling myself kind of like drift away from the idea
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of like, I do all things for the glory of God kind of situation.
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And I've kind of had built myself drifting away and I was like,
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oh, I should go back to this. But then I started in my mind,
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but why should I go back to this? What is it that I'm searching for here?
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Is it that I don't want my parents to know that I don't care their religion?
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Is it that I am afraid of letting down a past version of me and recognizing
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that there were things that I felt shame about or guilt about in my life?
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I didn't seem to have real negative human consequences.
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And do I want to feel some kind of regret over like a feeling of missed time
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or wasted time or something like that?
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What is it that I'm afraid of? And, you know, just over time it came,
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it just came forth and I was like, okay, well, if this is the situation now,
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I definitely spent a little bit of time depressed. That all happened right when COVID hit too.
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So there was some time, a lot of time on my own to like, think about these things
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at a time of like great outrage and stuff. And so there's plenty of things to think about.
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Um, and by the time that COVID and then the whole election that year kind of
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died down a little bit, I was like, all right, what can I do here?
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Because I can either choose to be very upset or angry and all those things.
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And I know that some things are out of people's control and all this stuff,
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but to the extent that I can control these things, how can I come up with a
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way of viewing the world?
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Doesn't make me really, really bummed out. I love it. I do. And so are you familiar
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with or have you heard of the concept of differentiation?
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It's a good psychology buzzword, but it really just means this desire we have
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to maintain connection while developing our own autonomy or holding onto ourself.
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And so it's a difficult process because we typically find ourselves almost in
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this codependent and meshed relationship with fill in the blank,
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whether it is our church, our parent, our significant other.
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But then we start going through life and having our own experiences and
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then and now we have these feelings but now we're afraid that if
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i really express them will this person like me they want to run away and so
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we're negotiating how much do i share about myself and i think that's part of
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that whole thing where that's so scary that then we'll just kick the can down
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the road and i'll deal with it later but then i like what you say but then all
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of a sudden bubbles up i got to deal with this and then i i often find that
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then it isn't whatever it is isn't as scary as one thought
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it was and it's that fear of that unknown i mean
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do you feel like you can relate to that
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very much so yeah so i definitely i
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am somebody who in theory holds on
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to things with open hands but in practice clings to everything that is close
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to me you know i cling to my identity as an artist i cling to my identity that
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i feel that my parents have of me i cling to a certain way that a relationship
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is going even when i feel things starting to like shift in a certain direction
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I'm like, no, no, change is bad.
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Change is bad. Yeah, exactly. And, um...
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I definitely feel that way and then become dependent on the outcome of whatever those.
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Yeah. So then we're trying to predict that, that future outcome.
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And so showing up, not our authentic self. And you've got some really cool stuff. I did.
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I read a couple of interviews with you. So I want you to know I'm prepared.
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And I don't remember all of the interviews that I've done.
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They were very good. Okay, cool. Because on one of these, what I liked that
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you said was you said the importance of doing something you love because you
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love it, not for the appeal of others. So then when you look at this differentiation
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thing, with so many of the things we do, we're doing for validation.
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I want to know that somebody sees me. I want to know that they approve.
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But I don't know, when I read that line of that, you doing something because
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you love it, not for the appeal of others, I wondered, was that just something that came natural?
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Was that a factory setting for Ian? Or was that something that you had to develop? No, no, dude.
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I have been spending the last several years trying to figure out what is it actually that you love?
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Because what it was that I loved was chasing things.
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I love chasing things. I love wanting something and going after it.
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And you know, when it was doing well in school, I was like, I'm going to do so well in school.
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I want to be a great student, all this kind of stuff because I'm interested in the material.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. But really, because then the teacher will be proud with that
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validation, right? Yeah.
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And you know, I lived in Nashville and i was making country music
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for a while and i was like i don't even know i didn't even
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know if i loved country music i like country music i love that there
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was a formula to be perfected you know i
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was like i can use my puzzle skills to find a
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way to be this unlikely force in
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this area and that was a great motivator um and
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then i gave myself modest goals in that arena and then i reached those modest
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goals and i was like that's so great and everyone's like cool so now you're
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going to the next level of whatever and i'm like yeah i don't know i kind of
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did that one that's fun like okay so now what do you love if I'm not searching
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for the validation if I'm not searching for I'm not searching.
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The approval of my parents, you know, my parents have been very clear as I have
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branched out in my artistic thing
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that they have been like, we support you becoming the person that you are.
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I love it. And I'm like, that's so great. But like, I still,
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I'm still trying to figure out how to like, believe you and feel it.
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And I do believe him on a mental level, but on an emotional level, it's tough. Yeah.
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So now you do something to do it because you love it. What do you actually love doing?
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Is it making music? Is it getting, maybe it's getting the likes on Instagram
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or whatever. ever, but diminishing returns.
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So I'm just trying to figure out what it is.
20:51
Yeah. How do we find out who we are? And I think it's what you're saying is
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I have to do, and I will often have people say, well, do what?
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And then it's anything, because once you're interacting with something,
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then you will figure out if you like it or don't like it.
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But then I think that fear of that unknown is that we hooked to that story of
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the, I don't even know what to do.
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And then that way I can kick that can down the road another week or two.
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I still got to figure out what to do.
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So over time that I'm not doing that and that becomes what I do,
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I'm good at not doing so it does sound like you've done
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a lot of different things i really want to know hello i love
21:19
your honesty about you weren't even sure if you like country music so
21:23
what was that experience what led you to the country music
21:26
uh market and then what was that like what'd
21:29
you do there did you perform a lot did you write well i knew
21:31
that i liked country music i knew that i liked zooming it i was always kind
21:36
of i was just like it always feels good when i'm listening especially i started
21:39
listening to country music in like 2013 through 2016 area era right before i
21:45
moved to nashville in 2017 okay that was like kind of the rise of this like pop bro country oh yeah.
21:51
And also on the other side there was like casey musgraves um and like some really
21:55
talented moving songwriters and i was like this is a cool scene and the biggest
21:59
appeal of it was that i was in college in greenville south carolina and nashville
22:03
was not very far and i was like okay i'll go to National.
22:05
And I went there for the summer between my junior and senior year of college.
22:08
And I had no idea what I wanted to do after college or anything like that.
22:12
I spent three months there just in the summer and I was like,
22:14
this is a game that I could definitely play.
22:17
So I'm going to plan to come here and do this. And I just kind of threw myself
22:20
into the scene writing songs.
22:22
You kind of like adopt the goals of the community, you know?
22:26
So like that was big on like, and then if you write a number one song on the
22:29
radio for a country music, you'll get $200,000 and like, that would be crazy.
22:34
And everybody will know your name and you're going to be so popular.
22:36
And I was like, all of these things sound amazing. amazing and so you
22:39
just i wrote like a gazillion songs and almost all of them were bad
22:42
but almost all of them had some nugget of something that i was
22:45
like okay that's good that's okay okay see what's
22:48
going on here and i worked really closely with my friend
22:51
lydia doll we wrote like 160 songs in
22:54
the first three years i was there with there was
22:57
always like a third artist there i was artist
23:00
for a long time i just went to write songs because i
23:03
was like i really love the process of crafting the puzzle but i don't really
23:07
want to be looked at okay one like to attract attention really so like i'll
23:12
write these songs for these other people to sing and we had some fairly popular
23:16
songs artists who were not popular or whatever we had like the top song on lots of unpopular artists.
23:22
Thing or whatever uh which is super fun how to write and then after a while
23:25
i was like i'm starting to write these things that i just don't believe that
23:28
anybody else is gonna say or sing,
23:30
so i'll start putting things out myself but i'm
23:33
still like kind of country and so i was marketing my music as country to spotify
23:37
and you ordered a different name at that time right because i went and uh found
23:41
okay tell me about that i didn't i went by a different name when i was in college
23:46
i was mac russell yeah okay mac russell yeah okay mac russell has an album i
23:51
don't know if you can find it anymore.
23:53
I tried to remove it from everywhere when I was just starting out the Ian McConnell thing.
23:58
Now I wish it were still there, but at the time it was important to me for it to be gone.
24:02
Yeah. Yeah. Hey, and I want to say also, Ian, what's interesting is there's
24:05
a book called Atomic Habits. I don't know if you've ever heard of it by a guy. Okay. James Clear.
24:09
And he does mention that the dopamine dump really comes in the pursuit or the anticipation.
24:14
And I remember reading that and I just thought that resonated with me so much.
24:17
And it sounds like is that part of what where you get that rush it
24:20
is that anticipation or okay and then once we get there then
24:23
it's and i think in the type of therapy i do it's called acceptance
24:26
and commitment therapy or act and there's you live a lot in
24:29
this place of i'll be happy when but then you get there and then it's okay that
24:33
maybe wasn't it so it must be this next thing and then that chasing that always
24:36
so is that part of what that feels like or has felt like that has been a fundamental
24:41
change for me since I probably turned around 27-ish.
24:46
I'm 29 now.
24:47
And I was the best at, I'm going to be happy when blank.
24:53
I'm going to be happy when blank. And not that I'm unhappy now,
24:56
but like, oh, but just imagine when I get there, just imagine when I get there.
24:59
And you know, when you're in school, you always have a next thing.
25:02
And then getting started in a community, you always have a next thing or whatever.
25:06
And then once I kind of branched out and started doing my own thing that was
25:09
outside of the community, but I found success doing so on Instagram and TikTok
25:12
and Spotify and all these things, or to be able to pay my bills, all this stuff.
25:16
I was like, okay, well, this is cool. This is super cool.
25:21
But it definitely was the chasing something that was the happiness.
25:26
So I've, but at the same time, I've lost now my main motivator,
25:30
which is I won't be happy until blank. I won't be happy until blank.
25:34
I'm like, well, life is too short to not be happy. Yeah, but it is fun to chase something.
25:38
So I guess I got to find some kind of middle ground. Can I somehow construct
25:42
a goal from something that I currently don't care about?
25:46
You know, is it about being creative and finding a goal or is it about searching the world?
25:53
Around you and being like what's what do i still have questions about
25:56
and that's kind of where i'm now okay that's brilliant
26:00
how does the world actually work when i'm consuming music art film whatever
26:04
it is what is it that i feel like i'm missing that's what i can create you know
26:08
i'm looking at why is the tree like that i can go learn about these things and
26:12
okay that's not that dissimilar from the way that this works it seems that things
26:17
grow and they fell things go
26:19
in waves, whatever. I'm getting a little dumb over here.
26:22
Yeah, no, what's brilliant about this, honestly, and I'm not just trying to
26:25
give you this continual validation party, but you are my muse.
26:28
I really enjoy where you're at with this because as a therapist,
26:31
as a human, part of, I think, my own journey that I didn't figure out till pretty late in life.
26:36
And thankfully, it's part of, I think then I can bring it into the therapy world.
26:40
But it is that when people are so worried about what's wrong with me or I'm
26:44
broken or why did I think that thing or am I doing it right or I need the validation.
26:48
One lets go of that it's wild i call it like a it's
26:51
freeing up of emotional calories spent and so
26:53
now it's like the world has suddenly opened up to if i'm
26:56
not worried am i doing it wrong am i doing it right or is
26:59
this going to be okay i i think that that's something that we
27:02
when you don't know what you don't know that just feels like the way it is and
27:06
then when you can let go of that then all of a sudden there's so much stuff
27:09
to take in in a cool way and then i think i've and i think some of your songs
27:13
allude to this too where I challenge often the right wrong concept not saying
27:18
you know like murder unless they need it
27:21
murdering I think in words like a Johnny Cash but if it's okay
27:23
I did this thing and then if somebody says oh I don't like that you did that
27:27
then we have a tendency to go oh did I do it bad but if the other person says
27:31
I like that thing I'm like oh whoo okay good I did it good and so that just
27:35
had me starting to think about I just did a thing so check that out and then
27:39
removing some of that judgment and so I don't know if that,
27:43
If you can resonate with that, burning of emotional calories that are spent.
27:47
With the what's wrong with me.
27:49
Very much so. I, yeah, that concept of universal right and wrong,
27:53
I've been considering for a while, really, since I read this book called The
27:57
Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. Incredible. Incredible.
28:01
Very points out. It has a couple ideas, mainly that your idea of right and wrong are really,
28:07
subjective based on what culture you grew up in and your environment and all
28:10
all these things and also that humans make decisions primarily based on their emotions.
28:17
Yes. And like, we like have 10%, 10% control or whatever. It's not exactly that or whatever.
28:24
No, I hear you. You have like your rational mind is the writer on your emotional elephant.
28:31
You can, as a writer, be like, let's go this way. But if the elephant doesn't
28:34
want to go that way, it's not going to go. Yeah. So trying to like,
28:38
I'm living, trying to create situations where my emotional elephant that's going
28:44
to go wherever it's going to go, wants to go in the direction that my brain
28:48
wants it to go rather than my brain trying to force it to go.
28:51
You know, you want to create incentives to move in a direction that is positive. Yeah.
28:56
Yeah. There's a book called I'm Being Certain that I wondered even if you were
29:00
going to mention that one.
29:01
And that one has a similar concept where this neurologist, a lot of his life's
29:04
work was not just one experiment,
29:07
but this one blew my mind where there's a, I guess there's a button and then
29:10
they've got him wired up to a nice functional brain scan and they say,
29:12
okay, press it with your left or your right hand and he can do whichever one he wants,
29:16
but you could tell which direction he was going up to three or four seconds
29:20
before he actually made the move. So those neurons of synapses start firing.
29:24
And then based off of that hypothesis, there was a lot of work done around,
29:27
yeah, we're basically three billion neurons walking around
29:30
in a human meat suit reacting to things but then we
29:32
want to make we want to make sense of what we did we don't want
29:35
to think that we just reacted so but then it's not it's not
29:38
entirely that so i like what you're saying whether it's 10 20 percent or whatever
29:41
it is so then in the type of therapy i i do
29:44
it so that happened now what do i do next versus why did
29:46
i do that and i love that concept yeah okay this
29:50
is uh i feel so validated ian that
29:53
it when i found you right like okay this is good stuff okay
29:56
can we well let me ask you the pandemic i
29:59
am curious so when you said that that was that was a little bit of a rough spot
30:02
how was that when you were deconstructing the faith when the
30:05
world shuts down were you pretty isolated where did
30:07
and what did that look like sure yeah i was in
30:10
nashville my main source of income was actually
30:14
really my almost exclusive source of income was playing cover
30:17
songs in bars which shut down for a
30:19
a while um but in in nashville nashville an
30:23
intentional job of trying to open up as soon as possible and
30:26
so they opened up for like a month nashville bars opened for like a month in
30:29
june of the pandemic year and then everything got shut down again because the
30:32
numbers skyrocketed so i suddenly had a lot of time because i was spending all
30:38
my time before that writing going to other people's places writing with them
30:42
and then going to a gig downtown or whatever and so So I didn't have Zoom rights,
30:45
but I was like, I don't love doing this.
30:48
So maybe I'll just take this time, like work on my own thing.
30:51
You know, I'm trying not to get myself sick or other people sick.
30:54
I still have never gotten COVID. I don't know. Okay. And we're the only two. I'm the same. Same.
30:58
We're the only two that haven't. Cool. Yeah.
31:00
It's nice. I would prefer to continue to not. Same.
31:06
But I just spent a lot of time.
31:08
Writing and stuff like that and then i was like i could be doing stuff on
31:11
tiktok i saw tiktok kind of popping off or whatever okay making
31:14
three or four videos a day just kind
31:17
of throwing stuff at the wall for a while until i got
31:20
a couple that stuck which were me singing little one-liner
31:23
jokes that i came up with really okay and then i
31:26
got really into that for a while posting for
31:29
three or four videos a day singing little
31:32
joke songs like i had this one i was like bees are
31:34
starlight commitment because i run away from both of them and that
31:37
was very popular it's very well like it yeah um
31:41
and uh yeah doing that while
31:44
also my country music started to get playlisted on spotify which was a big like
31:51
a big deal especially in nashville for street cred and as well as getting some
31:55
extra money you know okay because the streams would go up or whatever i got
31:59
a song on the hot country playlist on Spotify.
32:02
I was like, that's so incredible. That's so insane. And the guy who put it there,
32:06
the guy who was in charge of like country music outreach for Spotify or whatever, got fired soon after.
32:12
Possibly because you're putting people like me on the playlist.
32:16
Oh, you're trying to make sense of things, Ian, right? Okay. That's right. Yeah.
32:19
And I was living with my roommate of two years at the time, and we just kind
32:23
of spent every night together for like four months.
32:25
And then things just kind of went south there. like we just started kind of
32:29
getting sick of each other we had like some competing ideas about how music
32:33
was supposed to go we had been working there but then we stopped working together
32:35
and there was just kind of this tension at home I got into a relationship,
32:40
That was very, very clingy, very, this is what you're allowed to do.
32:44
This is what you're not allowed to do. And I was just like, well,
32:46
I'm not doing anything else in COVID.
32:48
So like, sure, sure. These were fine by me.
32:51
And that's something that I have noted in myself is that whole adapting to your circumstances thing.
32:56
Do that in relationships too. Pretty hard of like, okay, this is how you live.
33:00
I will just completely conform into the way that you live and see how that works.
33:06
And then often I get really burned out.
33:08
Okay. That's one. Okay. okay, I was going to say, we should talk about that
33:11
one, Ian, you know, but lay down while we go over that. Because that is one
33:14
of those where I think it's fascinating.
33:15
So, I've got a separate podcast called Waking Up to Narcissism,
33:18
and that one's actually more popular than the virtual couch.
33:21
I never anticipated that.
33:22
But early on, I identified, okay, everybody throws around the word narcissism,
33:26
like everyone is narcissistic, but really that's three to five percent of the population.
33:30
But we're all emotionally immature, and we kind of mistake the emotional immaturity
33:34
for this narcissistic personality disorder, but there's narcissistic traits.
33:38
But you find that There's this, they call it the human magnet syndrome,
33:41
and often it's that pathologically kind or that I'll do whatever you need me
33:45
to do person with the more emotionally immature person who then,
33:48
okay, well, this is the way I feel love is control,
33:51
and those two form that human magnet.
33:54
So do you feel like you were a bit of that magnet?
33:56
I do. I do. I hesitate to.
34:00
I mean, I think that a lot of the issue was that I was also emotionally immature.
34:05
Absolutely. Yes. That's not saying, of course, I've surmised that.
34:08
No, but it's like, yeah, that's what I think is right. Because we all are.
34:11
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
34:12
I mean, each, I've been in like four major relationships in my adult life.
34:17
And each time I have found that my tendency to try to like, just please you,
34:25
anything that I people please are happy.
34:27
Like, that's my, like, the feeling that I feel like I'm often pursuing is that kind of validation.
34:33
Yeah. Gosh, you're such a good boyfriend. friend you're such a good
34:35
totally friend you always are thinking about me
34:38
i'm like yes this is what i'm being celebrated for so i
34:41
will do this to the total top of my
34:44
ability all the time and then that just always kind of leads to strange situations
34:49
you know i'm not sticking up for myself but mostly because it's i don't know
34:54
what it is that needs to be stuck up for i'm just yeah i don't you know i have
34:58
a therapist i was seeing a therapist
35:00
before this therapist when i was in Tennessee for two and a half years.
35:03
And, you know, you always talk about like, okay, this time we're going to draw
35:06
boundaries or whatever. So I'm totally going to do that.
35:09
And then you're like, but what boundaries do I even draw? I don't even,
35:11
I don't want to draw that boundary because I want to hang out with you.
35:15
But somehow when we hang out, things turn into this or whatever it is.
35:19
So I think that I am still, I think I have a lot of emotional feelings.
35:24
Like data that has been over the
35:27
past three and a half years or so to like
35:30
that i'm still kind of synthesizing into ethereal how
35:33
do i approach relating to other people yeah i've
35:37
tried some current approaches now and none of them have been quite
35:40
on the money okay but what i so appreciate and i love that you're talking about
35:43
going to a therapist i always appreciate that because i think that there's so
35:47
many people that still feel like they need permission to go and when they hear
35:50
other people talk about it and the fact that you just said that on a podcast
35:53
like mine where a lot of people are listening because they're almost trying
35:56
to glean a little bit of free therapy because they want to, but they're afraid to.
36:00
I guarantee that the fact you just said that just had people say,
36:04
okay, you know what? I'm going to do it. So I appreciate that. That means a lot.
36:07
But what I really like too, it kind of goes back to what we were talking about
36:09
earlier. If everything we interact with is an opportunity to self-confront and
36:13
grow, then as is the relationship.
36:15
But then when people are stuck in these people-pleasing relationships,
36:18
emotionally immature relationships, when you try to get somebody to set a boundary,
36:21
a boundary it's an adorable challenge for the
36:24
more emotionally immature because you're basically showing them here's what's
36:27
important to me i think if that's okay and then
36:30
yep yep yes yes yeah so
36:34
no that's that's not that but it's all for a good and uh okay and when you were
36:40
jumping on tiktok and starting to go on the social media accounts this is a
36:43
little bit of a selfish question to ask you have a huge following i think when
36:47
i was looking this morning 700 000 people on tiktok and what is it?
36:50
Is it 600,000 on Instagram?
36:52
And 400,000? Actually, it's 398. So are you really? Yeah. Okay,
36:57
listeners, come on. I'll put the link in the show notes.
37:00
I've been really blessed. The podcasts have done well for the last decade,
37:03
but podcasts, you put it out there before people were putting them on YouTube
37:06
and I'll get some emails, but I can see the numbers and it blows my mind.
37:10
But I throw myself on TikTok and it's wild.
37:12
I never thought I cared about the numbers until one goes pretty well.
37:17
And then that is a rush. It feels amazing, Ian. What is that?
37:21
Are you chasing that? Not anymore.
37:24
I have done that. I might do it again. I might do it again.
37:30
The videos that I made for my most recent album, Season 2, I did everything
37:35
myself because I was really trying to challenge myself to,
37:40
Figure out what it is that you do well, figure out what it is that you don't
37:44
do well, and then figure out which things that you don't do well.
37:47
Are you willing to put in a lot of time to get better at and which do you need
37:50
to ask other people for help? Because I have been working with other people my whole career.
37:54
I just kind of got like, what would happen? I just, I run a lot of experiments. I'm a very pendulous.
38:01
I am like, hey, I know what it's like to work with lots of people.
38:03
What is it like to work with absolutely no people?
38:06
What are the consequences? consequences and i don't have a
38:09
visual i don't have like a visual aesthetic eye
38:13
that like i create something i'm very pragmatic
38:16
i'm very like well all the information is there so that should be plenty i have
38:20
a song the song is good if i'm just standing there and doing this like that
38:24
should be enough or whatever um and a lot of times it is you know a lot of times
38:27
i think that people generally come to me because of the things that i talk about
38:31
in my yes and probably because it It sounds interesting to listen to that stuff.
38:35
And I think that's why I keep people. But I think that for the purpose of gaining new fans,
38:41
like a little bit more mature video style or just something maybe a little more
38:48
grabby that I don't feel like I have the instinct for, which would be very helpful.
38:54
And so all that to say, in my last album, season one, I had lots of videos that went viral all the time.
39:00
And it's fantastic. I always got that rush and then things would start going
39:04
down or whatever and I would start getting this sinking feeling Oh, it's ending.
39:08
Oh, no, but now i've been through enough cycles and i'm like it goes up it goes
39:11
down It goes up it goes down this time around I was like i'm gonna do this if
39:14
they pop off great if they don't pop off fine.
39:16
I'm gonna learn what i'm gonna learn and I Specifically have not been watching numbers on this. Okay.
39:22
I just made the thing that at this moment in time I wanted to make So we'll see what happens.
39:27
Maybe Maybe it will be popular down the road. Maybe it will be super popular tomorrow.
39:30
Right now, it's very popular with people who already like me.
39:34
But it gained a lot of new audience.
39:36
Okay. And what I appreciate, it was funny too, when I started looking at the accounts.
39:40
So when I was following you and it tells you the people that I follow or follow
39:44
me that follow you, there were several therapist accounts.
39:47
And that did make me feel a little bit more validated for some reason.
39:50
I'm like, this guy, this is some good mental health stuff.
39:52
I love that you're writing about your experiences. Are you aware of the positive
39:56
impact that it can have in the mental health field?
39:59
I am. It was not my intention, but a lovely side product.
40:05
Yeah. I said I'm looking forward.
40:09
Yeah. I have found that when I consume stuff, the thing that I'm most drawn
40:13
to is an honest portrayal of somebody's human experience, regardless of what
40:17
it is. Regardless if I'm going to think, well, they're a bad person.
40:20
They're a good person. I don't do that anymore.
40:23
I always am like, okay, like I can see what would happen if a person acted like
40:27
this under these circumstances or whatever.
40:29
And so I feel like what I'm trying to do now is be like, well,
40:31
how do I act under my circumstances?
40:33
Can I describe what my circumstances are and the way that I'm reacting to them
40:36
and come up with some way of making sense of all of that in a digestible way,
40:41
which hopefully, I mean, that's just doing the same thing back that I thought was helping me.
40:46
So I'm glad that it's helping. I love it. It really is. And that's what I'm
40:48
excited about when you responded that my podcasts are primarily to a mental health audience.
40:54
And so I think that that's going to speak more to the people that are listening
40:57
to this podcast than they are aware of.
40:59
I just think that people are going to really resonate. And what I appreciate
41:01
too, and I'm curious, the way you released your music, I really enjoyed that.
41:05
So this season two, you had the video every week.
41:08
So was that just an idea? 13 weeks. And was that just an idea that you had?
41:12
Have you seen that done before? so this was season two i
41:14
did season one when i was back in nashville um and
41:17
i released season one that way okay working with like
41:21
a management team um it was three of us and
41:24
then the guy there was the main girl and
41:27
then the guy who owned the company and then a girl who was helpful
41:30
and the guy who owned the company had the
41:33
idea of releasing things like a television show his
41:36
name was stephen lynn oh okay i haven't seen him in a long time
41:38
but we have all stopped working together since then but
41:41
that was his idea so i definitely want to credit him i like
41:44
releasing on a week i also just think it's super cool because you
41:47
can that way expand instead of being like here's
41:51
13 songs i hope you're trying to work with them right now because i'm you're
41:54
not going to hear about it after this week like hey there's another thing thing
41:57
and even if the first song you see is episode nine you're like well this is
42:01
episode nine so there's other stuff yes that got me perfectly and then i'm trying
42:06
to make sense of the okay what's is there a through line here What's the story?
42:10
And then I even like the fact that then your songs themselves caused me to think
42:14
and wonder about what that experience was.
42:17
For people listening that are going to go listen and they're going to check
42:19
out both seasons, was there a theme of season one? And would you say there's a theme of season two?
42:24
I feel like season one was kind of diagnosing. Okay.
42:28
Where that I like that. The one was very like, well, I want,
42:32
I mean, I have this song friends of all the things that I want to be true and
42:35
it cannot make them true. And I have this thing.
42:38
I am clearly an adult now.
42:41
What does that mean? How do I deal with that? What is my view on friendship?
42:44
What is my view on like, how am I treating things?
42:47
And then I have this song hating stuff about, you know, I don't really know
42:51
what's going on, but I'm going to focus on the things that I like and see what happens.
42:53
And around, was focused on being by myself.
42:57
What happens? I'm spending time by myself.
43:00
What are the things that I think about? What are the things?
43:02
How does the way that I talk to myself affect the way that I perceive the world
43:08
or the actions that I perform?
43:11
Yeah. Yeah. There definitely is an arc of, there's a little bit of a redemption
43:15
arc of just starting from a low place, going into a place like.
43:20
But this is the way things are. So let's figure it out.
43:23
So if you've got a few more minutes, Can I go through some of the lyrics? Okay.
43:26
So season two, episode one. Okay, right here. I know.
43:30
So yeah, let me regale you with your powerful lyrics because I love them. I really do.
43:34
I bolded some. So season two, episode one, level 429.
43:38
And as a person that has been stuck on games like Candy Crush and whatever,
43:41
and embarrassingly high levels, I was drawn into that one immediately.
43:45
You're talking about, okay, I sort of kind of auto-playing while I spiral.
43:49
I'm a mess, but I'm fun about it. I'm a mess. So what about it? and
43:52
then there's a section where you say i don't know
43:55
what i want from this i don't know what my purpose is i don't believe in
43:58
purposes i don't believe in permanence i don't believe in much these days that's
44:01
where it was i miss religion i miss faith i miss community and praise there
44:04
is so much there what do you remember writing that talk about that yeah i was
44:09
stuck on level four it was actually level like 433 of bricks and balls okay
44:15
okay where you like shoot a number of balls and try to break all the bricks, you know, um.
44:19
Watching the Larry Sanders show on HBO, um, at my, the only house that I lived
44:26
in by myself in Nashville.
44:27
And yeah, I was, I was, I had gotten drunk.
44:31
I had gotten high and I was just sitting at the piano, just being like, what is the state of now?
44:36
What am I experiencing right now? And I, to me, I listened to that song. I'm like, it's funny.
44:44
This is a funny song to me. I don't know if I sold it funny enough.
44:48
Okay. Yeah. These things are, they are funny. They are funny, you know, to be.
44:54
Like, oh, things are kind of a mess, but like, it is fun. It is fun to be in
44:59
this situation and be trying to figure out all these things.
45:01
The religion thing was, has been tough for sure. And I remember that night just
45:06
feeling like, I don't know what to, that thing we were talking about,
45:09
I don't know what to pursue now.
45:11
I don't know this God shaped whole of this is my goal.
45:15
Get to the eternal life. Please the Lord. Do all these things.
45:18
Who am I trying to please? please, I don't want to turn another human into a
45:22
God, but I sometimes do that when I am dating somebody or whatever,
45:26
because I have this God shaped hole and I'm like, I need somebody to please
45:29
somebody to tell me I'm good and tell me I'm good. Yeah.
45:32
And so, yeah, that was really just diagnosing the state of where I was in April of 2023.
45:38
Okay. And what I can, man, I can identify what you're saying there of,
45:42
I thought this was fun or I thought this was funny because when I first discovered
45:45
you, honestly, I think that was what I was so intrigued by was,
45:49
is this a person that I'm watching the depths of despair,
45:53
but he seems like he's kind of having a fun time with it.
45:56
But so this cognitive dissonance, and that's what caused me to just,
45:59
I would watch more of your content.
46:02
And then now thank you algorithm in that scenario, because then every day when
46:06
I'm getting on TikTok, there's more of you, more of you. He's kind of a fun hang.
46:09
But then I love that, that it was like a paradox.
46:12
Season two, episode two, I just school chunk out of here.
46:15
Now, and now I love knowing this backstory too, but then it was,
46:18
what if I accomplished nothing? Would that really be so bad?
46:21
What if I make enough to live until I die and leave no mark behind?
46:24
What's really wrong with that? Why am I any different from your average bird,
46:27
bacterium, or hanging fern that takes a turn alive on earth that then feeds
46:31
the worms? I'm guaranteed that one thing.
46:34
So what if I accomplished nothing? I think why I like that was,
46:36
I think I remember when I first heard you singing that, it's the,
46:39
okay, yeah, maybe he's accepting the fact that maybe I can just be,
46:42
it's okay. I don't necessarily need to accomplish anything.
46:44
But then all of a sudden it's, and why am I any different? And it went from
46:47
bird and bacterium and firm, and all of a sudden I'm feeding the worms.
46:50
I was like, okay, I'm not, I'm not sure then. Is he having a fun time or not? That's interesting.
46:55
So for you though, let me talk about that lyric, what was going on there.
46:58
Yeah. I mean, that's kind of that idea of like, why is it special to be a human?
47:04
And like, I feel like the rest of the album kind of does tackle like, why is it special?
47:07
Yeah. My therapist that I had in Nashville, who I got along with really well, I miss him, man.
47:12
He just can't practice in the state of Georgia, but he, anytime that I would
47:15
ask, well, but what if like, he would be like, answer that question, answer the question.
47:20
What if you did that? So I'm like, okay, I just did that with accomplish nothing.
47:23
What if I accomplish nothing?
47:25
This is my deepest fear. My deepest fear is this
47:28
failure or failure to leave a mark on things or whatever
47:31
first of all you're gonna leave a mark you're
47:34
gonna be food for something you know all the
47:37
things that you've interacted with are slightly different because you've
47:40
touched them yeah you know buddy that you've affected all this kind so you can't
47:45
really accomplish nothing and i don't really get into that in the song oh that's
47:48
a good i like that that's a good point you can't really accomplish nothing but
47:51
if you do accomplish nothing what are the real consequences of doing so and
47:56
it doesn't you know in the bacterium hanging from like,
47:58
what are the real consequences of accomplishing something.
48:02
Nothing. Maybe I just haven't discovered them yet, but also it's difficult.
48:07
You would really have to try to accomplish nothing. So it's really more of like,
48:11
what if I accomplish nothing now or today or there or whatever.
48:15
When I was mentioning this therapy modality act earlier in ACT,
48:19
we talk about that we worry about the future and we ruminate about the past
48:22
in an effort to try to make sense of right now, but it's this flawed premise.
48:26
And I love what your therapist is doing Because if somebody's saying,
48:29
yeah, but I did these things in the past, then I'm always like,
48:33
totally, you did those that those are things.
48:36
And then, but what if this, what if I don't do this thing in the future?
48:39
Well, that will be a thing.
48:40
But then what about the now? And it's all that version of this is all we have
48:43
any bit of a semblance of control over is literally right now.
48:47
And now that's already gone.
48:48
So with next, so I love that. So we, our brain thinks it's doing us a solid
48:52
by worrying about the past and worrying about the future. And, but those are things.
48:57
Yeah. Yeah, those are things that were really helpful for humans getting to this point.
49:02
Yeah, you're right. Yes. The collective idealizing of what do we want our world to be?
49:07
How do we create that world? Like, is why we have created all these great technologies
49:11
that help us talk. You're in Phoenix. I'm here. We're talking.
49:14
It's amazing. And, you know, becoming just what it means to be human is based on all of those things.
49:20
But that indomitable human spirit, when it doesn't feel like there's enough to get done.
49:26
Or okay there's a lot to get done but i don't feel that i can affect global
49:31
politics personally you know or at least i don't think that i can affect it
49:35
with the amount of effort that i'm willing to put into it so instead of being
49:40
like just angry and spinning my wheels how can i,
49:43
push myself away from that and be like i'm going to observe that and see what
49:46
happens and anytime an opportunity falls to me to affect this like voting or
49:52
something yeah i'm like we'll do that.
49:53
That's great. I would love for my voice to be heard, but in terms of how these
49:58
things are affecting my life, like, how should I.
50:02
Just control the things you can. Absolutely. Yeah.
50:05
Yeah. No, I love it. And I do. And I know I wish I did not have a client at
50:09
noon, Ian. I'm like, I can't believe this went so fast because I have more lyrics there.
50:13
But I do want to, what I like where you're going with that too,
50:16
is I often talk about acceptance and we think that acceptance and you use the
50:20
word apathy in one of your songs.
50:21
So I always like when somebody can pull a good apathy reference,
50:24
but acceptance doesn't mean apathy.
50:26
If I accept the fact that this is where I'm at now, it doesn't mean that I'm
50:29
just like Like laying down and doing nothing for the rest of my life is acceptance
50:32
and commitment therapy.
50:33
Acceptance means to take in without defense in its entirety.
50:36
So I give that example of if somebody says, yeah, but I don't want to be anxious.
50:40
So I'm going to avoid the things that might cause me anxiety.
50:42
And that anxiety is the thing. But if I accept it, then that means it is there.
50:47
I will go do things and then there will be the anxiety.
50:50
But then I still get to do things. Oh, yeah. And then here the anxiety is coming along with me for a ride.
50:55
And it turns out it's maybe not as scary as I thought it was. but that's such
50:58
a foreign concept though when we want i don't want to feel it oh it's like oh
51:00
yeah it's a hard hurdle yeah it's a tough hurdle to get over i
51:03
do tend to especially when i'm
51:06
like this is uncomfortable whatever it's okay it's the easiest thing to control
51:09
it i can just remove myself totally at least long enough to try and think about
51:13
it and be like what the heck is wrong with this situation yeah i'm still still
51:17
working on accepting all these things and then when you talked about the uncomfortable
51:21
that's my biggest fixation is around that concept of differentiation
51:24
we're all wired to get rid of discomfort but then really sitting with the discomfort
51:29
turns out i'm okay and that's where growth occurs i love that concept but it's such a.
51:34
Difficult one because your brain's also telling you hey you're
51:36
uncomfortable man hit the brakes why are you sticking around or is
51:40
it the okay or is this my opportunity to grow and that
51:42
i think that's even a little bit of a fine line at times i have
51:45
to ask on that note too you've performed a ton do you enjoy the performing part
51:49
do you get nervous before what will that be like when i see you in phoenix yeah
51:53
i love performing it's super fun i go up and i have a list of all the songs
51:57
that i plan to do and then there's a puzzle that i do every single night of
52:01
like how am i going to connect all these songs together in a way that seems
52:03
coherent and all this stuff and how.
52:06
Without just talking about i try to do very little
52:09
talking about the songs that okay i the songs
52:12
are really almost like resting points in the narrative of
52:15
this whole thing trying to figure out what does it mean to live a good life
52:18
what does it mean to try what does it mean to love people what does it mean
52:21
to be loved like how do we do all these things in an age that looks like this
52:27
that is not like the age of our parents and not like the age of our parents
52:30
all this kind of stuff yeah and so So I totally get nervous because it's always,
52:34
there's always that element of uncertainty,
52:37
but yeah, I love uncertainty is just, it's just always going to be,
52:42
it's always going to be an adaptable self for yourself.
52:46
Ian, I cannot thank you enough for responding. That made my whole day. I got all excited.
52:51
I group texted my whole family. I was like, oh, listen to all his songs and
52:54
he's coming on the podcast and I can't wait.
52:57
I will, I will hopefully get to shake your hand when you come to Phoenix and
53:01
then I'll I'll put the link to where they can, people can find you on all the
53:04
platforms, but buy tickets, go see Ian, whether you're here in Phoenix and you
53:09
can get a picture with us both.
53:10
That's me like wanting to make sure that I can get a picture with you while
53:12
you're here, Ian, or you're playing, you're playing all over the country and
53:15
you're just, you're right.
53:16
Okay. And I think Phoenix is the fourth or the fifth stop.
53:19
So get your tickets. And the good news is the podcasts are pretty evergreen.
53:22
So there are going to be people that are going to hear this for the next few weeks.
53:25
And if you're hearing this in a year from now, I'm sure now you're playing arenas.
53:28
So look for him there. Right. Okay. All right.
53:32
Okay, it was you too. And I can't wait to see in person. And I am a fan and
53:36
I will do all I can to spread the good word of Ian.
53:39
Heck yeah, thanks. Okay, all right. Thanks a lot, Ian. Okay, take care.
53:42
Music.