Latest / I Used To Be Crap At Sales / Benjamin Dennehy's Most Honest Interview YET| EP03 | Benjamin Dennehy
Transcript
- Benjamin Dennehy 0:00 It was a Friday afternoon. I was struggling to get meetings struggling to get through to people. And I was doing the usual typical sales but be happy smile as you dial put ominous positive, wasn't working, and my boss is a bit of a surly bastard. And he just comes out. He goes, What's wrong? I said, like I said, no one's around. It's Friday afternoon. I can't even get up. But I had to get out of my seat. We sat down at my seat. And he picked up the phone. Benjamin Dennehy 0:27 And he sounded so miserable when he talked to me. sounded so rude, Benjamin Dennehy 0:33 almost. And he got passed, and then he got through but as soon as he got through, he switched. Benjamin Dennehy 0:41 And he had a conversation and he got a meeting right there. And he hung up the phone he goes, that's how you do it. Mark Ackers 0:54 Welcome to another episode of the ISP crap sales Podcast. I'm Mark Akers, co founder and head of sales and my sales coach, and today I'm joined by the nuclear option. The self proclaimed UK most hated sales trainer, someone whose audio name on LinkedIn is leave me alone by the King of Pop. Michael Jackson. If you've not worked out by now, today's guest is Benjamin Dene. Benjamin. Welcome. Great to have you on the podcast. How you doing? Benjamin Dennehy 1:23 I really good. It's good to be here. Thank you for inviting me on. It's always a pleasure to come and talk to you. Mark Ackers 1:29 More than welcome, Benjamin, I'm really looking forward to this. And let's just kick this off with a yes, no question. All right. Did you used to be crap or sales? Benjamin Dennehy 1:39 Yes. Mark Ackers 1:40 How crap? Are we talking? Benjamin Dennehy 1:44 Oh, how crap? Well, I was like both salespeople, I'd show up, I'd throw up and I'd hope. And I used to believe that people would buy on my winning personality and my commander knowledge of the product. And if I just presented it in an intellectually compelling way they buy and I fell into the trap that you've just got to do enough of those because eventually someone will buy that selling is just a numbers game of doing something. Well, turns out that it's all crap. But that's how most people sell. Mark Ackers 2:14 I feel like there's two Benjamin DNase and I feel like I've got the real one in front of me rather than I'll Benjamin Dennehy 2:19 correct it. It's pronounced dinner. Hey, everyone says hey, it's an interesting thing. So I'm Mark Ackers 2:24 pleased you've done it. Then at dinner he dinner Hey, yeah, Benjamin Dennehy 2:28 there's not even a he. But everyone always defaults to hey, I don't know it should be dinner. I don't know what the hell it should be. But it's dinner. He just Oh, yeah. There's Mark Ackers 2:36 less leave and the podcast. So all three listeners, including my dad, three. Yeah, we'll know exactly how to pronounce your last name. So in terms of just a bit of a backstory, Benjamin, I obviously have had the opportunity to speak to a number of times more so than probably 99% of people that follow you on LinkedIn. Like, I've met you at events, and then yeah, through train, yo. And I've got to watch you train as well. So as part of train, yo, I was reinforcing a lot of your training, you know, a couple years ago now. But yes, I remember one weekend at this random weekend where I was alone, my wife, and my boy was not there. And I knew how to watch your content. And I watched about 12 hours over the weekend. Yeah, just just watched it all. And I think what I've taken from what I see online, UK is most hated sales training. So playing the nuclear option. And then what I've witnessed when I've met you face to face, and we I remember, we had a good felt like 45 Maybe an hour at the sales Innovation Expo yesterday for COVID. And then obviously watching your train, there is just there's two Benjamins, there's the persona that you've created. And in my opinion, like genius persona that you've created for lottery is very divisive. And you will know that people will either love you or hate you. No one's really in the middle. I don't know what that split is like and how many love and how many. I know you don't care. But that is just a character that you've made up. I know there's the real Benjamin that when I watched the training, very meticulous, incredibly intelligent, really understand selling and buying and the mindset of both people. It's the questions you ask how you ask them when you ask them, what you don't say what you do and when. And I just wondering, I feel like I know what Benjamin do I have in front of me today. Benjamin Dennehy 4:43 Probably the performer. Whenever I do an event, any any any podcast, any opportunity to speak, I have to always be in character. And it's only when you work with me or you meet me on a one to one basis that you see another side of me and you're quite right. It's all done. I'm deliberately it's part of the psychological game that I play. And the reason why I'm so harsh and blunt and brutal, the character that I created is one as you're right, it cuts through and I designed to be controversial and challenging, because I think most people themselves are stuck in a malaise, and they don't realise how much of a malaise is stuck in a need to be slapped around to get out of it. And the other one is, whenever people meet me, the most common expression I hear is, you're a lot nicer than I thought you're gonna be, you're a lot more children, I get that part of it. So if a prospects expecting me to be a certain way, and then I'm not that way, and I come in, I'm far more nurturing and far more empathetic. I get their defence water lower a lot, lot faster. So the whole character is created to feed into when I get in front of people. So yeah, so it's been designed on purpose. And I liked that a lot of people would know that. But that is the reason for it. Mark Ackers 6:05 I mean, it just makes sense. And, like, I almost feel like it must be fun to get to be the bad guy. And just put things out there, knowing that it's not always like you've got a mask on. And I'd say when I watched those 12 hours of training you, you were teaching people that had never been an SDR before the basics of pitching cold calling how to lead with problems. I just saw this totally different side view. And as I say, I watched it and I was compelled just to watch the whole thing. And I took a lot from your, your training as well, particularly on the mindset. How did you learn all of that? I know, it's a huge question. But like, like, Where Where does this start from you? I suppose? Why don't we break that question down there? Right. Let's look at where you learn to sell. And when I look to your LinkedIn, got once you finished being young, three, free and not committed, you got your first role at Hayes recruitment. That's roll with Hayes. Yes. lasting six months. Yes. What happened there six months, like I was interviewing you, I think you failed in that role. Yeah, Benjamin Dennehy 7:14 yeah. So I suppose I was asked a question on a podcast several months ago, about when did I first start selling and I did say it was my first sales job with Hayes. But they don't realise Actually, I'd always been selling as a child, I completely forgot about this. I've always, never had a fear of putting myself out there. I've never really cared what people think. So selling requires a very thick skin. And the less you care about what people think about you actually the BDR as a salesman, unfortunately, most people fall into sales because they have a pathological need to be liked. Whereas I've become quite the opposite. So throughout my childhood, I was always selling. So I used to every year to raise money for our school, they'd sell these absolutely shitty plastic products, plastic lunch bags, plastic pegs, plastic prints, all plastic, and you go from door to door in your neighbourhood, knocking on the doors, trying to get people to buy this tear. I also used to try to get sponsorship, there was something when I was a kid growing up called the 40 Hour Famine. I don't know if you ever have it over here. It was to raise money for starving kids in the third world. And you would not eat from six o'clock Friday to lunchtime Sunday. And as a 10 year old or 12 year old that was really quite hard. So you get sponsored by the hour, and you'd raise money. And I went to law school because you asked me what did I want to be when I grew up and I wanted to be a lawyer and I did become a lawyer I qualified as a barrister. And then I realised I didn't want to be a barrister. I'm one of those guys that likes to achieve something and once I've done it, it's kind of move on to something new now. And then so I had to get a job I decided to go travelling. And I spent years as you point out working in pubs and having a lot of time but then I finally had to grow up and I needed a proper job. And what do you do if you're a lawyer who's never really had a job? What do you do? What there's nothing all I could do is interview well and string sentences together pretty well. So I the only thing I'm suitable for was selling. So that was my first job was in Hayes as a recruiter. But you are right. I didn't recruit anyone I said a company record didn't recruit a single person. Absolutely. shite it it. I guess I just didn't like it. But so I was given my notice. I was literally told you got one week. You got till next Friday. And if you don't achieve anything, you're out of a job. So that was a motivator, Kickstarter. So I went in the next week and all I did was prospect my guts at least to go to canvassing back in the day canvassing and I can list and I got a load of appointments with companies that a lot of people in my office had tried to get into before, but had never had any luck. So I've got to stay of execution. The manager at the end of the week. Say, Benjamin, let's delay our meeting I want you to do next week what you've done this week, just do more of that. So I did it again, got a load of meetings. And then we had my meeting. They said, Okay, I'll tell you what beans, but this is what we're going to do, where you're not going to be a recruitment consultant, because clearly you don't have the aptitude or ability. I don't know why we have a heart. But anyway, I lack something. But what we want you to do is we want you to do purely lead generation, for the others to go other meanings. So that's how I sort of fell into prospecting as a career. And ironically, I ended up getting poached by another company that specialised in lead generation for advertising and marketing agencies in London. That's how the Hasting to haze kicked it off. And yeah, had I had I not turned out to be a crap recruiter, I never would have become a prospect, and then I never would have led on to where I am today. So that's how it all began. I fell into sales just like everybody else. I didn't choose this. I just had to do it. Mark Ackers 11:00 And you're right. Like that's how most people end up in like, they just fall into it. Like I've yet to meet someone that wants to grow up and be a salesman, yet to be a student at uni that wants to be a salesman. It doesn't happen. So obviously, it sounds like when you were recruiting you were crap. You were. So Benjamin Dennehy 11:20 yeah, I look back. I don't know why. But I mean, I think at the end of the day, because I thought it was I tell you what I disliked about recruitment. And I think it was more of an ethical thing. And I didn't like deep down what they do. I remember listening to consultants, convincing someone to stay in a job that they were hating, so that once they hit the three month mark, that the client couldn't get a refund or a free replacement, and they'd lose their commission. So I remember listening to this and thinking, I still had a bit of ethics and me younger back then I remember thinking this seems wrong. And I just don't think I liked it. Because I didn't like it. I don't care. So I think that's probably the real reason I thought it was unethical, it might have changed, but I don't know. Mark Ackers 12:07 Who Who knows, recruitment recruiters will Benjamin Dennehy 12:10 let us know after this podcast goes out. If they if Mark Ackers 12:13 they listen, listen. And so yeah, then then I saw you moved on to be an account manager, but the buyer he said appointment setting, so I'm guessing, did you book an appointment with them and they're like, this was it. Benjamin Dennehy 12:24 So my job then was it was a company called new business or NB eventually went bust. But when I went in, this would have been the mid 2000s. Lots of money sloshing around and advertising agencies, they only worked with advertising agencies. And they would basically pay my employer between three and 5000 pounds a month for someone like me to sit on the phone and get them appointments that I would have at any given time for clients. So he's making between 12 and 15,000 pounds a month off of my labour. And my job was to set appointments and you would normally targeted with three or four per client per month. So you're looking at pretty much a meeting a day. And I was actually quite good at it though. So I was talking to brand managers, brand directors, account directors, marketing directors, anyone in the industry, and I can't think of a company a big company in the UK that I haven't set an appointment with at some point Pepsi, coke, Nestle Mondelez Kellogg's. Yeah, most of them I've set meetings for during this period. And so that was a very big learning curve. And now my boss, I've got to be careful because I've mentioned the company names. I won't speak to disparagingly about him. But at this way he did things that I didn't think were quite right. But one thing he did do, I remember this distinctly. It was a Friday afternoon. I was struggling to get meetings, struggling to get through to people. And I was doing the usual typical salesman be happy smile as you dial put on as positive, wasn't working. And my boss is a bit of a surly bastard. And he just comes out. He goes, What's wrong? I said, like I said, no one's around. It's Friday afternoon, I can't get up. But he I had to get out of my seat. He sat down in my seat. And he picked up the phone. And he sounded so miserable when he talked to the gatekeeper. sounded so rude almost. And he got passed. And then he got through but as soon as he got through, he switched. And he had a conversation and he got a meeting right there. And he hung up the phone. He goes That's how you do it. He just fucked off. And I remember thinking, Oh, I can't do I can't. I can't be like that. That's That's not me. But that's what got me thinking I had to be like there. I was phoning up always trying to be me on the phone. Always trying to be who I am. And what I realised in that moment was as being who I am as irrelevant. I've got to be the person I I'd like to the character that the gatekeeper needs to do a job and put me through that the prospect needs to feel comfortable wanting to talk to me. And that's when I realised I have to be an actor. This isn't just be you and you always talk be yourself, be authentic, be genuine. Just be you. actually turns out that it's bollocks because most people don't naturally like your personnel about one in five people share your personality, the other 80% probably think you're a bit of a knob at first instance. So I got to start giving people the personality they need, not the one that I want to give them. So that that actually started the journey of discovery actually, all from this, one guy sitting on the phone behaving in a way that I thought was wrong. But it turned out he was right. Mark Ackers 15:42 How much of that moment do you think was calculated? By your boss? Do you think he knew what he was doing? Or is just how he wasn't? Because, you know, he said he switched. But equally, I'm wondering how how much intelligence was behind that decision? versus how much Benjamin Dennehy 15:59 does wonder Yeah, I was too, I wasn't smart enough to ask him because he was a bit freaky, pit stop. I don't know. But he was always good at getting in front of people. So I think there was a lot of intelligence behind it, he was just no good at imparting that in the way he was trained was no teaching, no education, no training, just sink or swim. And so that's Yeah, but I think in some ways, some ways, I kinda like that, because I think in sales, you have to be a natural self starter and self motivated. And if you can't, you're never going to be very good at it. Anyone that sets up a business, like you have an I have, you have to be a self starter, self motivated, you have to be able to go out, when you could just sit around and do nothing. When all your friends are doing stuff. You you actually I can't I got to work on my business. So it takes a lot. So I think, yeah, if you suffered it too much for people, you're actually doing them a disservice and trapping them in a career that really they're not suited to. Mark Ackers 16:59 I, that point, certainly resonate. I think, one of the things not I don't apply it too much, but give the context, one of the things that we can provide it my sales coaches and assessment, and the assessment will look at someone's will to sell their sales DNA and their tactical aspects. Tactics, we always expect to be low on the assessment because no one's really had formal training. Last words out, we have never had formal training, sales DNA, some of that comes with experience some of that you just have some of that you learn but the will to sell. If they're low on commitment, low on desire low on motivation. They're not going to succeed. No. And you obviously had that. Yes. But the manager didn't help you. And I'm wondering, what were you doing when you got served your notice, other than just hustling and trying hard? Were you doing anything to try and learn how to do this? Benjamin Dennehy 17:54 I worked for this company for about 18 months, and then it suddenly dawned on me, I can make a lot more money. If I went out and found my own advertising agencies and worked directly for them instead of being the middleman like this guy is. So I did I quit. I gave my notice. And I did what I was doing for my clients I prospected advertising agencies in London. And I said, Tell you what, this is the deal, though. Instead of outsourcing. I'll come and sit in your office one day a week, and I'll make calls from your office and I'll get you appointments that way. It's open, it's transparent. There is none of this. Is he actually working on our account, which you can get when you're outsourcing you don't know are the leads genuine? Because a lot of times you would share leads to these call centres. Someone would book a meeting with say the brand director of Pepsi and then everyone else would they vote the brand director and you know, so it was all a bit. And you got paid commission if someone but anyway, so I said I can eliminate all that I can be open, I can be transparent. You can hear what I'm saying how I'm saying it. And it was from that experience that I started getting quite a lot of good feedback from my clients. They all used to say to me, you're very good at getting appointments, we've used other agencies in the past and we've outsourced in the past. We've never had the results that you've got why? I remember one CEO literally sang to me, he ran a Travel and Tourism Agency. He said, Well, how are you so good, what is it you do? And I said, I don't know. As you know, honestly don't really know I said, but I do know certain things work. And he goes like what? I said, well, the more I struggle, the more people help me, I said I don't understand that. But what I've discovered is as the less professional I am the more time people give me, I say I put on a fake stutter. I said very hard to hang up on a man with a stutter just seems rude, right? So I used to do there, I said, and I said what I found is the less I talked about what we did, more interested people seem to be as inspired. I don't know why any of this works. And he said to me, he said I'll tell you what, he goes you're wasted just doing this. He goes if you can figure out why won't you do work and then teach other People, he goes, that's where the money is for you. It's almost like that McDonald's moment in the founder movie where he says to him, What business are you in? It goes burgers, he goes, No, you're not in a burger business. You're in the land business. You own the land. You want it. And that was my burger moment. You're not in the set meetings business, Benjamin, you're in the teach people how to set meetings. And yeah, and from that, I got introduced to a guy that you know, Mark is Kalki. Yeah. And he opened my eyes to a lot of psychology and a lot of things. And I spent some time with him, mentoring under him and learning from him, and then taking that and just literally going out and trying to get really, really good. That was it. That was just, I know, these things work. I now know why they work. I understand the psychology behind why it works. I just now have to master it. And if I master it, I'll never be poor, broke or hungry ever again. That's exactly what I did. It took a long time to get really good. But I was determined. And every time I wanted to quit, or go back to doing it the old ways, I would say to myself, if you were truly competent at this, is there any reason it wouldn't work, and it was otherwise known. So you have two choices, admit it's beat you or keep going out there and getting good until you've mastered it. I chose the second option every time even though it was the hardest. Mark Ackers 21:27 And really just was I could have kept listening there. And some of it I've heard you say before, like the training the Oh Benjamin Dennehy 21:34 good. It means I'm not making it out. That's nice. Like aren't Mark Ackers 21:37 what I remember, listen to you. I remember you telling the students who drain you know about the stutter about forgetting things about miss hearing. And it did I just thought Bloody hell, like there's so much into this. And you said it took you a long time to master? Do you feel like you're a master now? No, Benjamin Dennehy 21:54 I think no, I still have lots more to learn. I think the reason I came up with the title UK is the most hated sales trainer is because I didn't want to sound like everyone else in sales that thinks they're good. And they all say number one top performer top biller 10x. It's the usual look at me like me sort of crap. And I came to the conclusion that if you want to be an expert in something other people have to call you an expert. If you call yourself an expert. Yeah, I don't find it. So I've never you could read anything I've ever written. And I know you've read my stuff over the last 10 years not once have I ever, ever referred to myself as a thought leader, a sales leader, a guru, an expert, I've just put out my ideas and concepts. And you either like it or you don't either they work. So I don't care if people say it's bollocks. It's like, well, that's your problem. You haven't even tried it. And the only reason you don't want to try it is because deep down I know, you know the work. It's just the fear of having to change is what prevents you? Yeah, it's like trolls on LinkedIn. The reason people troll you Is it because they think you suck. It's just they miserable with their own life. This is the only way they can feel better. So I know when I meet people, the most negative about what I teach is because deep down they're the ones that know how to work the most. And they realise how much they're going to have to change. Most people don't want to change. So yeah, so yeah, so I've just went out and got as good as I could. Mark Ackers 23:20 And how long do you feel that process but you said it took a long time. You're not a master at them, Benjamin Dennehy 23:26 I would say I've been I've been doing sales training now pretty much. I think it's 10 years next year 2025. I started properly doing around 2015. So between 2010 and 2015. I was trying to master all of these techniques so that it was done in a way where it came across as natural. This is the thing with technique and skill. When you first learn and it's clunky you can see it, it's a move. It's how do you take this and manage to actually personalise it. So it's no longer a technique. It's actually just your way of communicating. It's just who you are. And so people are unable to separate your character from your personality. And it takes a while and all my clients and all my students say this is really hard, because under pressure, you always revert back to type you always revert back to original programming. So I was cold calling yesterday I was filming a load of cold calling sessions yesterday here, here in the office. It got through to this guy then the people filming it said it was fat because I got a meeting. I wasn't intending I was trying to get a nose in a row. You only got to the number five and I got a yes. And this was a guy that said he goes though I hate cold calls. Because I'm not a fan of them. I don't like receiving them. I said okay, well look before you hang up. Can I ask? Why do you hate them? Is that because you don't believe their work? Or is that just because you personally dislike them? Because well, it's a bit of both. And what does that mean? Then this guy ended up opening up and then he said look, we don't even need cold callers and he starts rambling and all I did was listen than anything he said I just asked him Question. And here's how we went about 30 to 40% of our purchase. I go well, why are you still putting in quote? It? Is what you got it? I got I don't I'm assuming you charge for them. Because what what do you mean charged for them? Well, you're not going out just doing free quotes and proposals, are you? Is it? Well? Yes. Because I don't think I don't believe he can charge. So when you say you don't believe. What do you mean? I guess well, I just, I just don't think it'll work I could do you don't think it'll work? Or do you think it would be wrong? That's all I can say, this guy's going through the motions. And he said, This is all my job is, I'm a therapist. And at the end of it, he said, It's alright, I guess I think we should meet he goes, I found this conversation thoroughly. enlightening, and here's a guess maybe you can help us heal? Maybe okay. I don't know. But let's have our meeting and see where it goes. So that's all selling is, is just listening to the profit. It's not going in with a prepared list of questions. You know, like a cross examination, it's, it's more a therapy session. And if more people realise that they realised that easy selling is. Yeah, and people just don't get this. And it frustrates me at times, but my clients that work with me all get it and they see it. So yeah, it's It's a bittersweet sort of thing, the world I operate and people that work with me get it and love it. People that hate it constantly slagging off, and it's like, but you haven't even tried it is your chickenshit. Mark Ackers 26:35 So many things I could ask. One of the things I noticed that I want to get your take on this is, in that example, when you are asking questions like yeah, why why don't you like cold calls? You always gave two options? Yes. Now most people would just? Well, most people would do that. Actually. They would just give what they think the answer is not really learn anything. I think a lot of salespeople that are trying to perfect would kind of ask the question and shut up, Benjamin Dennehy 27:03 open ended everyone's over ask open ended questions and whatnot, an open ended question is appropriate, if an open ended question is appropriate. But your strategy is it you should always be asking, I know that's stupid. I'm trying to direct a conversation. And I'm trying to control a conversation. So I have various techniques. So that is that I call that the multiple choice. Yeah, it's always ABC or something. So so when you say you don't like cold calls? Is that because you don't like receiving them? Is that because you don't like making them or some other reason? So now, they have to pick one of the two or give me a third. And this is the thing that most people don't realise every human being has been programmed from birth that they have to answer a question. Can't help it. The ones that don't answer it are the ones that have learned they don't. Yeah, because they know their job is to guard information. But most people, if you ask them a question will answer it. CEOs, right down to the janitor. And most people don't wear this. I'm aware of it. So I know that if someone asked me a question, I'll just go back with a question. So this guy on the phone could ask me, because Benjamin, because is is are you a company? Is it just you or do you have a team of trainers? And I can give an answer in the form of a question. I said, Well, if I told you, it was just me, you I get the feeling you to tell me that would disappoint you. See, now it's a question. It's no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I got what were you hoping for a T budget? No, no, yes. No, I don't care. You see, this is the other reason. Most of the time prospects ask questions. They don't actually care for the answer. So it's no point even answering them. All you can do is shoot yourself in the foot. Yeah. Mark Ackers 28:44 And so I'm with you, like, there's times where you just need to get a yes or no, or you need to get an answer. And I was just wondering if that was calculated by giving with which, which is, and I knew that from your training, but again, I wait, I wanted the audience to hear that. Absolutely. Benjamin Dennehy 28:59 So I presumptive question. That's another type of questioning people don't use. So a presumptive is where you assume they've done something. But I asked it knowing the odds are, they haven't. And so by saying so when I say to him, but I take it you charge for those proposals. I'd knew we'd say no. And then I go, then I get to go, did I go? Sorry? And he goes, No, I said, No. And then I said, Okay, can I Why don't you charge them? Well, I just didn't know. He said, so this is I'm controlling the conversation. This isn't pre scripted. But I'm in control. So any question that I hear I answer with a question and all I do is ask question because the salesman job is to extract information, not give it my job is to figure out are you someone that can actually buy from me? I'm not here to convince you to buy from me. I can't. And there are more reasons for you not to buy from me than there are for you to buy from me. So I need to figure out can you buy from me? So my job isn't to convince you that this warehouse full of widgets is good. I know they're fucking good. We bought a business selling widgets, you need to convince me that you're able to buy them. It's a total mindset change. And again, so many people struggle with this. This like, No, you can't do that you can't act like you can. You've just got to have the guts. Mark Ackers 30:22 So, Benjamin, like, obviously, that makes a lot of sense. On your LinkedIn, you've got various roles where you're consultancies you're going in, you're selling your time, etc. And let's get back to because we've heard a lot about how you got good the journey you went on. When I asked you, did you speak crappy sounds? You said yes. Is what point of your career come straight to the front of your mind? When I asked you that question. Benjamin Dennehy 30:49 It would be. It would be going back to the early days when I was prospecting. And basically, I did what most people prospecting, do, I was trying to bake my way into people's diaries. And I was good at baking my way into people's diaries. But what I discovered is, when I went out on my own, this was the other thing that I discovered. Advertising agencies, they didn't actually care if they sold, they just liked the idea of getting in front of the marketing director. And so what I discovered very quickly is is they never needed anything qualified. As long as I got in front of the brand director for Pepsi, it didn't matter that he said, Look, I don't have actually anything for you. I know you don't. But I can guarantee that if you see what we have, you're gonna be really, really blown away by it, it's gonna kickstart your love. Honestly, please just give us half an hour of your time, but I promise. And eventually, they'd relent. And, and I had various different tricks and ways of sounding like that. My clients used to come back and say, they were slightly disappointed you with them? Because they were quite looking forward to meeting you, you know, and all this. And then I'd ask them to how's it going? Well, you know, went really well. I go, What do you mean, it went, Well, how'd it go? Well, well, you know, well, there's nothing right now. But we've got the door open beds, we've got our foot in the door, we've been in front of them, it's all about and then this then it was all about building relationships and nurturing this. And I remember, I remember saying, This all seems completely wrong. All you do is show up, throw up and then hope something will happen. And I said, Look, I don't know how to sell. But what I do know is that this is wrong. And everyone said, Benjamin, I'd been doing this for 20 years. This is the way it's done. And I remember thinking, Well, I don't think this is right. But I'm going to try and figure out how to actually sell because there's got to be a better way than just doing this over and over again. And this is where I realised all those phrases came from, it's a numbers game, you've got to be in it to win it. These are all phrases we tell ourselves to justify running on a little rat, race wheel and achieving nothing. And then when I looked deeper into it, I suddenly realised all those expressions are from the lottery, you got to be in it to win it. It's a numbers game, there are a lottery jingoes. So this is a lottery. And if it's a lottery, you have no control over the outcome. That's no way to grow a business. Mark Ackers 33:15 To be you. Talks about the lowest point you've had because you shared again, like the journey you've gone on what was the lowest point you've had in sales. Benjamin Dennehy 33:26 So the lowest point would have probably been I think 2016 17 I was really struggling. I am. What I done in end of 2014, I believe it was is I decided I want to do sales training as a full time job. But I also kept the prospecting side of my life going. So I had an income coming in from prospect is I spent half the day prospecting or doing whatever I had to do to get my clients their meetings to get my retainer. And then the rest would be trying to sell it and prospect in sales training services. And I came to the conclusion I sent to my wife, I said, Look, I said this isn't working. I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not making any traction on the sales training side. And I said, I know why. And she said, why I said, because I have a guaranteed income coming in from the other prospecting. And I said, look, the only way the only way I'm going to get good at this is I have to force myself to do it. I said, so I'm going to file my clients, and we're gonna have to live on our meagre savings and credit cards until I get this work. Yeah, I said so I said, I said so. The thing I do with everything in life is you got to ask yourself, what is the absolute worst case scenario? What's the worst case scenario? I said, What's the worst case scenario if we do this, my dear? I said the I said we're not going to be homeless. We live in the West, we live with a socialist country, the government ain't gonna make it. We're not gonna be homeless, we're not gonna be living on the streets. Plus we got friends and family. They said, We're not going to be homeless. So the worst thing is what? Bankruptcy? I said, we don't have anything really now at all bankruptcy does set you back to zero. I said, So I'm willing to go bankrupt the viewer. She said, Okay, well, I believe in you. I said, fine. So that's, that was it, I cut off my income stream, and said, Now, you gotta go out and do it. And it didn't quite start the way I'd hoped because it took longer than I thought. So what do I have now eight credit cards down 45,000 pounds in debt. I've got a how old now let's have a three year old four year old daughter living in a rented. And I remember crying at times. So I can't make this work. And I wanted to quit. But every time I wanted to quit, I asked myself the same question. If you were actually any good at all the things you're trying to learn and want to teach? Will it work? That well? Yes, then you either admit defeat, or you just what was my option? If I quit now, what are you gonna do? You have to go back to the other way, and you don't live there. So I was stuck. I literally was complete, I had to do this. And I just kept pushing through. And you don't see changes in yourself because they're incremental. It's not until and then one day, I just got in front of a CEO of a very big company called call them got in front of him. And the meeting went so well, we get to the end, he doesn't want to work with you, because I don't even know what you're charging. But I know you can help me. And so I had this external validation from this guy. And this guy was really successful. I've everything good. From that I suddenly had a boost. I went out and the business started to grow, started getting more people to my events, more people started buying. And it just it just got compounding, compounding and the better I got, the more I attracted, but it was a long journey. But I was willing to go bankrupt. This is what I most salespeople, I was willing to put everything I had on the line to get good. And this is why I'm so fussy when I work with companies. If your salespeople aren't willing to stump up out of their own money to get better at this I wouldn't invest in them. Don't invest in people that won't invest in themselves. I don't believe in this bullshit. Oh, you got to know every lawyer every surgeon every accountant I know how to spend their own money in their own time mastering those skills. Sales is the only one where you turn up with no background no education and then expect everyone to spoon feed you the answers. And then they wonder why no one likes us and why we're useless. Mark Ackers 37:41 Take me back to a credit cards in 45,000 pounds in debt. Three year old girl. You you crying at times. Where do you go when you cry? You might call her the room by yourself is in front of the one I Benjamin Dennehy 37:57 was using. was sitting at my desk in the spare room in disappear. My wife said she could hear she said she goes always remember I would hear you would be she goes it would be funny. You'd be on the phones at 830 in the morning. She goes I knew you'd be sitting there just in your boxers in a T shirt. But yet you're always putting on this act sounding like this slightly pissed off frustrated CEO to get past the gatekeepers. He because I used to hear you day in day out and there was she goes Hey, Seth so much sympathy for you. I say that. It's it's what you have to do to grow a business. It's not handed to you on a platter. Yeah, it was hard. It was hard. But I always had that hope. Not that hope I always knew that this stuff would work. I just wasn't good at it. Yeah, you can't say I can't ride a bike and riding a bike doesn't work just because you can't ride well. People ride bikes all the time. They jump off cliffs, out of planes on parachutes on bikes, you can do anything on a bike. You know how to use it. You just got to learn how to use it. So yeah, just because I can't ride one doesn't mean they don't work. And that was the same approach. This is I can't do this doesn't mean it don't work. I've got to I've just got to get good or quit. Those are the choices Mark Ackers 39:10 who who helped you for free that period, you know, can be a lonely game. It Benjamin Dennehy 39:16 was lonely. So there are a couple of guys obviously Mark has Kalki he was always there another gentleman called Brad Burton. Brad Burton, UK is number one motivational business speaker. In fact, meeting him was what kick started my branding actually. We've got a story we've now we now I had lunch with Brad just last week, we've remained friends. And I our story is I was supposed to go to a networking event at six at 7am or whatever it started. And I was lying in bed at 5am And I remember this voice is I can't be fucking I can't be born. And then this other voice said this is your job until you don't need to do this. You have to do that. So I got up, and I drove all the way to Portsmouth from where I live in Bournemouth, 60 miles away to go to a breakfast networking event, because that's what you do when you're trying to build a business. And unbeknownst to me, Brad Burton, the guy that owned all of Fournette was going to be there. I didn't know that until I arrived and everything well, this is for Georgia. I remember thinking you got to stand up, you got to give you a little 32nd pitch on who you are, and whatnot. And I remember thinking to myself, the only man in this room I want to impress is Brad Burton, I want the guy that owns this company, to want to talk to me. So I stood up and I let rip about why it's all your mother's fault. You can't sell and you're a pathetic loser. And he loved it. He made a beeline for me when you got to swap your cards and who you wanted to talk to? And he said, How come I've never heard of you before? I see. I'm a nobody. He goes, No, you got something. You got something, he goes, You need to figure out a way of marketing yourself. Because like me, number one motivational business speaker he goes, How do you think I became? I don't know. He goes, read page 26 of my book. So page 26 of his book, what does it say? I made it up. And so I did one of his courses, how to be a better speaker. And that was where the idea to create this character came from. So Brad Burton was a big influence in seeing in me something that maybe I hadn't quite seen. That was very important. And he kept saying, you've got something, you've got something. Go out there, you'll make it just go out there. Yeah. So he's been a good source of inspiration and confidence, I guess at times as well, him and Mark is Kalki. Mark Ackers 41:39 How close were you to giving up are Benjamin Dennehy 41:44 very close. But the problem was and this this this is this is this is an I'll be upfront with people if you're in sales. Unless you go off and retrain as something completely differently, like a teacher, or a barista, or a lawyer or accountant or something. You have no transferable skill set as a salesman. You think about if you're in sales? What jobs are advertised for wanted x salesmen? What skills? Do they list that you have? Yeah, the only options you have as a salesman is either completely retrain and get out of cells. But you don't want to get out of sales. Because you know, there's more money in sales. You know, if you become a teacher, you're going to be stuck on 27k a year for years, and you don't want 27k I want to be able to earn 50. But if you're not earning 50 and stuck in sales, it's miserable. So where do you go, you've got nowhere to go, unless you set up a business, but then you're selling again. So if you're in sales, and you're not very good, it's a very lonely, depressing place to be because there's nowhere to go other than something completely different. And so a lot gets stuck. And they just go through the motions for the rest of their life. It's not hard to be in sales for 30 years and not really achieve a lot. Yeah, you just got to swap jobs every three years, because they'll always hire for experience. Right? So but think about it. If someone was to write a job advert, what would they write that would that would be you suddenly are looking for a salesman? Is there any other there isn't one you're stuck, right? So I realised it doesn't unless I go back to New Zealand to become a lawyer, which I'd qualified to do. I had that option. But I didn't want to do that. So I'm stuck. I'm stuck. There's literally nothing else to do. I have to make this work. So no matter how despairing it got. I was sober last year. I'm a prisoner here. Unless I fundamentally want to change my life. Turns out I did fundamentally change it by sticking it selling. Mark Ackers 43:52 And it feels like you had people to really help you through that period. And mentor and coach you Benjamin Dennehy 44:00 Yeah, I had people had my faith there was always praying. I remember this is a true story. I was praying one day and my daughter was in the lounge she must have been five something only little kid while I was praying it must have been probably girl I'd say Did God Wait is this gonna work? I remember sometimes you get these little bit my daughter just said that she my daughter. She just said it was the weirdest thing she just said not yet Dad. What she just said Not yet. And it was the weirdest thing you're saying? Well, that's a maybe that's a message not yet. From a five year old kid who was listening to me pray I don't know how she came up with that thought. Maybe God inspired her but it was just it was one not yet. So all these little moments just kept me going. But yeah, it's a very lonely place sales if you're not doing very well. The very lonely place and I know what it's like. So that's why I like helping people, because I know where you're at. And I say, but you do have a choice. You either give up and admit that's beaten you, which is fine. You're allowed to do that. There's nothing wrong with admitting something's beat you or if you don't want to quit, don't grumble Don't moan, don't whinge go out and get better. That's it. Mark Ackers 45:24 So, just, uh, I mean, I didn't realise you're a man of faith, to pray regularly? Benjamin Dennehy 45:30 I do. That keeps me going. You can't rely on humanity, that that'd be stupid. Mark Ackers 45:35 And then where do people start? Let's just imagine someone's listening to this right now. They're crap. They're struggling. Maybe they're on their second or third credit card. They're trapped? I understand exactly. So in there. Where do they start? What do they do? Benjamin Dennehy 45:56 Where do they start? That's it's a good question. Where do you start? Well, the first thing you got to admit is you don't know how to sell. I think that's the first you got to you got to admit you don't know what you're doing. I think a lot of people don't want to admit that. Because if you admit that, how do you go to your boss, if you're in a sales job and say, Look, boss, I'm gonna be upfront with you, I don't have a fucking clue what I'm doing. Ah, I don't know how to sell. I don't know. Because what most managers do, they'll just most are pretty crap. And I'll just say we just follow the script stick to the script. So no one ever teaches you or helps you understand why we're selling or what the purpose of selling for us, or how you communicate with you, no one teaches you any of this, they just expect you to go out because that's the way they were trained. And because no one ever shows you why you're doing what you're doing or how it works. It's very hard. So if you are struggling right now in sales, what you need to do is you need to admit you don't know how to sell. And then you've got to look for help. It may not be at work, it may be external. It's people like me or other people, I don't care who you go to. But you've got to turn to somebody for help. But then also, when you're appealing to this person for help, you have to assess them on how they're interacting with you. Because how anyone interacts with you in sales is what they're going to be like as a salesperson. And so if you kind of see yourself in the way they're behaving, I probably wouldn't hire them either. Yeah. Because if you see them behaving like you and you start to feel comfortable, it's because you're seeing so if you want to get good, you have to become uncomfortable. Yeah, so you got to start doing things that make you uncomfortable. And if you buy help from people that tell you what you want to hear, you're not getting help. It's like the prosperity gospel. You know, big in America, you know, believe in God, and you'll be wealthy, healthy and successful. I know where it says that in the Bible. Most people have miserable lives in the Bible, have you read it live their lives ended pretty badly. So there's so but when you hear what you want to hear, I can 10x your business. All you got to do is this this this? You know, and that's what people are like. They're looking for a quick fix a quick answer. took me five years to qualify as a barrister. And then I was a junior around. Yeah, four years to qualify as an accountant seven years to qualify as a doctor, and then you're a junior a junior, you're at the bottom of your profession, to be considered a sales professional. What is it three days product knowledge, a new suit, a CRM system, and you all walk? You're now a sales professional? No, you're not you just know, there's nothing about. So you have to say to yourself, if I'm feeling like this, I've got to figure out how to sell it. It's not just going out there and blagging it it's not a numbers game, there's gonna be a skill to this, there's got to be a way to get good. And I know how to do that. And that's what I teach people to do. But it's uncomfortable. And it takes a lot of time. It's you're learning you're learning a profession. Mark Ackers 49:07 It's uncomfortable, I think, is the key. Very Benjamin Dennehy 49:10 uncomfortable. And just you got to learn to communicate differently, act differently, behave differently from the way you've been raised. Mark Ackers 49:17 Let's just break that down. Because I've said this before, like you say, to get into sales, there's no barrier to entry. Now, anybody could go and get a form of sales job somewhere. Like yes, they exist. There's no barrier to entry. There's no qualifications, you can get a sales job. Yeah. Why do you feel so many people take that low barrier to entry job, but have the ego that I know what I'm doing. I'm experienced, I'm seasoned, etc. Rather than be open and admit that this is a skill that can be mastered. I'm going to work with someone that's walked in my shoes, had success in my role achieved what I want to achieve. Why is there so much ego In a role that anyone could just fall into with no barrier to entry, Benjamin Dennehy 50:04 I think you need it. Because if you didn't have it, you'd have to admit you're a loser. So I think the ego is a protection rate measure against the realisation of reality. Let's think about it. But yeah, most people actually say, I'd say 95% of people fall into sales. It's not what they wanted to do. So you got into university and you've studied, I don't know, sports psychology or gender studies, and you suddenly realise no one's gonna pay you for that crap. So you're educated, you're young, you're thin, you can string a sentence together. Who's gonna hire you? Sales? Yeah, people say, Well, he again, he seems alright, he's got the right personality to give him a shot. And then you get into and when you first started sales, you often do relatively well. I call it the rookie phase. And the reason why rookies are good at selling is because they don't know what they're doing. So when you don't know what you're doing, you're naturally better at asking questions of understanding. Yeah. And so they start off, all right, they think well, this is this is easy. But as they fill their brain up with product knowledge and information and then experience, they go away from being curious and interested in prospects and trying to understand to trying to impress them, to show them how much they know, because they feel that a professional because when you look at other professions, they're very good at demonstrating this skill. So salespeople want to emulate that. But in fact, that's the worst thing to do, because then they become a character and a personality that actually turns most prospects off. And then we get shows like The Apprentice, right? I swear to God, the apprentice is funded by the procurement Society of Great Britain. It's a PR campaign to make people remind people of just how awful actual salespeople are how sleazy dishonest unethical, it's all part of this. Yeah. And then people grow up with this is what salespeople alike. This is how I have to be. It's a gift of the gab, you know, those expressions, he could sell ice to an Eskimo that means he's a crock. There's nothing no Khaled selling ice to people that don't need ice, you know, so we got this, there's almost a bravado in our absolute unprofessionalism. And salespeople also are quite independent, a lot of them. And the last thing they want is accountability. This is the one thing they forget about other professions, lawyers, doctors, accountants, they have very high accountability thresholds. If you screw up, we're able to figure out exactly where you screwed up and how and then we can assign blame with salespeople. never their fault. Never our fault, we lost the deal. And we did not know. But when they when they get all the price. Yeah, and I bring accountability. It's like, no, no, no, no, let's listen to that. Cool. Why don't you fuck that up? Yeah, and you got to get them to go through that meeting. Why did we we should have won that deal. Why didn't we? And you can go back and figure it's because you never asked this. Have you ask that one question? Had you understood that better? We would have one. Or how was it? We got all the way to the end of this pitch process. And we suddenly discovered they have no money. How did you screw that up? How did you not get out of them that they were broke? Oh, boo, boo, boo boo. Will they lie? Yeah, we know and prospects are gonna lie. Your job is to get to the truth. What do you do all day? So I kind of lost where I'm going. But what I'm getting at is sales. People don't see what they do as a real skill. They just think you can blag your way through it. Yes. If you get in front of enough people, people will give you money. It's not hard getting money off of people. You can lug an old lady you kick a tramp today, you can rob a bank, getting money is not hard. And it's even easier if you discount and negotiate. Yeah, I mean, I prohibited our worth of saas companies. It's a rule. Sick and tired of saas companies. Their entire model is beg beg, beg, beg, beg free trial, free trial, free trial discount discount discount, is just not selling. Yeah. So that's that guy. And the Biden said is just that volume, volume. And it's good for the VC capitalist, because it all looks good on the matrix, but at the end of the day, a lot of hot air. So um, yeah, I think the reason you need an ego is because if you didn't have it, you'd realise you're a husk of a human being. You're a hustler. You're a shyster. Yeah. So they have to have the bravado to get through it. Maybe it's a bit harsh, I don't know. Mark Ackers 54:36 So, when you reflect back, and you end it, what would you say is the biggest mistake you've ever made in sales? Benjamin Dennehy 54:44 The biggest mistake of biggest mistake you've ever made Benjamin Dennehy 54:55 the biggest mistake, I can think of instances where I've screwed up but you Biggest mistake. I think the biggest mistake is of mine. I think it's the world's and societies. And that is, the biggest mistake is no one actually ever teaches this. You could teach people how to sell at university, it could be a whole course it's an entire Communications Corp. No one teaches it. Just like no one teaches you proper math. They teach you Pythagoras and trigonometry math that you're never going to use. No one teaches you taxation, math that you need to know, you know, stuff like important stuff. Yeah. Because maybe they don't want you knowing how the system works. If you know how it works. Maybe you do too well. But also, I think the biggest mistake was never appreciating early enough. But selling is a skill. That selling was just all down to my winning personality and my ability to master the facts. And I think for years, I lived under that delusion. And I did that it was me. People bought me people bought because of me. People liked me they warm to me, and I really bought into that. It turns out that is all bollocks. Yes, there's an element. People need to they can't have outright hostility towards you. But most of the time people will buy in spite of you. If you have something I want, you may be a bit of a nod, but I'm still gonna buy from you. You don't need to relate. I've never met a prospect that's ever said I need a relationship to buy salespeople, the only ones that say you need a relationship. Have you ever said I can't buy from this restaurant? Because I don't have a relationship with them. We've never had any outreach computer systems? Nothing. So no, I think the biggest mistake I had was believing the bullshit that you're constantly forced fed about what makes good salespeople gift of the gab. Yeah, blah, blah, no, it's bollocks. And work harder. Washing machines work hard, but they don't achieve much. Mark Ackers 56:56 Um, so I totally agree with that the need to be liked is one of the biggest things you'll see in elite people versus low performers. They just don't have that need to be liked. When you need to be liked and often loved you just struggling the role of asking the questions and, and whatnot. And in terms of realise at the realisation of that moment that you don't need to be like, it's not about you. What happened for you to realise that? Benjamin Dennehy 57:28 What happened for me to realise that was your burger moment for that. But I don't think this is specific. But what it is, is when you learn that you can pretty much ask any question, so long as you do it the right way. What you soon discover is you can get away with a lot. And the moment I realised I could ask really, really awkward uncomfortable questions of someone I was trying to sell to. And the response was never what your mind is telling you it will be. So when I work with clients, what are the biggest thing is teaching them to ask a lot tougher, challenging, uncomfortable questions. Their fear is you can't, you can't you can't ask a prospect that. And when you challenge it, it's why can't you ask them that? Why? They said, Well, you just can't be rude. Why would it be rude? And then you still get this has nothing to do with the prospect This is you. It's how you're gonna feel if they react in a certain way. You're more concerned about how you feel, not the prospect. So don't give me this crap that you won't ask a question. Because you're genuinely concerned about the prospect know, you're scared about how you're feel if they react in a way that makes you uncomfortable. And because you're so scared of being uncomfortable in front of a prospect. You don't do your job. Imagine hiring a lawyer or a surgeon that didn't ask you personal questions to get to the truth. How can they help you? If they don't know what's going on? How can I help you if I'm trying to be your friend? And I don't want to ask you anything that might upset you or or make you feel awkward. So I won't do my job as a surgeon? I won't I won't do that. It's pathetic. We don't expect that. And I say do you have to like your lawyer? No. You have to like your surgeon. No. You just need to trust that they're going to be able to do their job. Yes. And this is it with salespeople. They don't have to like you now don't get me wrong, you don't go out of your way to be a prick. But there's a difference between being liked, and trying to be liked. And most people that meet me in the flesh when I get them, kind of like me. They want to me, but I'm not going out of my way to be like that just happens because I'm doing my job well. And it's I respect what he's doing. I quite liked the way he's doing it. And yeah, I actually do think that guy can help us yet maybe he's a bit blocked rough around the edges, but I'm not hiring him for that. I'm hiring him to learn how to sell. So that was the moment for me And then when clients phoned me up and say, I asked this question and yeah, how do they respond again, not the way I thought. And the reaction of a prospect is never as bad as what you tell yourself. So it's all about salespeople are very self centred, and I centred, it's all about them, getting the deal getting the win, getting the prospect over the line, getting the answers to my question, giving them to see my wife, they're very selfish. And so why would I do anything that makes me uncomfortable? I won't. So I'll do whatever I think makes me comfortable. And I justify it by saying, but that's what the prospect wants. Now, though, what the right solution to fix their problem. That's what they really want. Mark Ackers 1:00:43 spoke a lot about what you've learned and how you've learned it and said, by your own your own words, you're not a master yet. Do you believe today you still do enough to learn and develop? Benjamin Dennehy 1:00:57 Do I do enough to do? Probably not will be the honest answer. I I've tried reading sales books, but I find most of them frustrate the hell out of me because they seem to regurgitate the same thing just slightly repackage it. And I still feel a lot of people that teach selling don't fundamentally get it. And I'm, I always, I always look at how a sales have been, I've run business against other sales trainers. Because the sales trainers are acting exactly like the prospect salespeople. I remember one occasion, winning a bit of business. And I found the guy well, I was asked to phone him. And I found this guy. And he'd already met with two other sales trainers. And what I got out of him during a conversation was what was pissing him off the most is that he's got the sales guys. And all they do is they go out, they meet with prospects. They draw up a quotation a spec on how they can help and then I spent their life chasing. And I said, and we, the conversation went for about an hour. And during this, he explained how often they were doing that, how many times a month we were able to figure out how much it was costing him and all of this. That's a lot of money. Yeah. And then I said he goes through. So how does it work with you, Benjamin? I go, Well, the other sales trainers, what are they doing? How when are you doing? They're tasty? Because no, I've I've asked them to send me a proposal. Can you send me one? I go, Okay. Well, before I do that, can I ask you a question? Yeah. The other guys that have the other sales trainers. Have they sent your proposal? He goes, Yes, I got out of interest. How much did they charge you for it? They said no, no, they haven't charged me. And then I then I give them a stroke as it was that because you negotiated them down. Because no, no, no, no, no, they send it for free. I said okay, I say I'm confused. Because why? I said well, we spent about 50 minutes of you telling me how your guy's going out doing quotes and proposals and chasing was pissing you off yet the very two people that you've asked the team tries to sell are acting exactly the same way as you as Why the hell would you work with them? Because it's very good point. I said so he goes want to live with us if this is it, you're gonna pay me X amount. I'm going to come and I'm going to do a taster session and at the end of that day, you're gonna make a decision. Do we want to work with Benjamin or do we not? I got that set I don't know proposal I guess all right, let's do that. Then I go What about the other two? Yes, no, no, no, no, you've you've just made me realise they're doing exactly what I have to do what you've just done that is it. So yeah, it's the selling is not being like everybody else. Selling is not showing up throwing up and hoping selling is not quoting and hoping sellings not doing proposals that's that's what you do. Because you're trying to get someone to use you and you're already losing you've given all the power and control to the one person that shouldn't have the power control the person with the problem should never dictate to the person with the solution the rules of the game crazy right when you start to see it like this it's crazy. How am I leaving the person with the problem dictate to me the person with the sword but they got the money? Maybe I could also lie to you I don't need money to get you to do this. I just tell you I got money. We'll try true. Have you ever found yourself being used? Yes. Ever been turned into a free consult yet? Ever seen your ideas taken and run without being put? Yes. So why do you keep doing it? The definition of insanity But no, but it's hard not to do that when everybody else does it, the prospect demands it. What are you a whoop? Mark Ackers 1:05:09 Is a great story. And you're right. Why was a problem person with the problems dictate the rules? If you were to do a self assessment, yes. What do you think's your biggest weakness still yet to be fixed as it sounds freshsales? Yeah. Benjamin Dennehy 1:05:27 My biggest weakness. I still think at times, I don't go deep enough. I've, I think it's very easy. Like with anything life, you can get into a bit of a routine and into a bit of a bit of way. And so I've had so many sales meetings with people that buy my stuff, I can almost do it with my eyes closed, because I now the conversations are so predictable now. And this is what I love about selling. This is what I teach salespeople, we live in a finite universe, there's only so many things your prospects can ever say to you, if you sell any product. There's only so many variables. But once you've heard them all, you've now got your little universe. And if you've got a good mind map, which I've done, it's all mapped out. Now, it doesn't matter what a prospect ever says to be in my world. I'm ready for it. And so I think it's quite easy to become a bit, it's very easy to become a bit too laid back too relaxed. I remember complaining a couple of years I said to my wife, I said, this is start to get boring. This is why I see people just keep giving me money. Now I see I don't even need to like the argument. I know this is good. That's it. This is not a bad thing. I said, but part of me, he's not me, he's a little annoyed. I said if it keeps dying out, they're gonna have to quit. There's no challenge in this anymore. So in order to do that, you have to go deeper. So I think one of my biggest weakness would be maybe not going deep enough at times, because I've just got so good at getting to people where I need them. And yeah, so yeah. Everyone could always be going deeper, I suspect. But I know I should be. Mark Ackers 1:07:02 What would you say to me, then let's imagine I was going to come to you wanting to work with you and where to pay for your training? Yeah. And well, no, actually, let's change that. Let's chat. Let's imagine we're in we're in a pub, just me have a conversation. And I'm saying to you, I don't feel like I go deep enough. But I'm successful enough. Which is basically what you said to me. Yeah. What would you say to me? Benjamin Dennehy 1:07:27 Bizarrely, I'd say then fine. You've just said you don't go deep enough that you're successful. So why change? Mark Ackers 1:07:35 And I wondered, though, if you would not push someone to get better. Benjamin Dennehy 1:07:40 Now, because let's let's listen to what you just said, because it's kind of what I've just said. Because it's interesting, right? So if you see to me, I know I should go deeper. But I'm, I'm successful. So my first question, why try harder? You need to now you need to now come up with a more compelling reason. I now need to go deep. Yeah, no, you need to go do but you said you're successful. So if it's successful, why do you need to go deeper? What's driving that? Mark Ackers 1:08:07 So here's where I'm sort of just thinking and you said it right at the start. Once you've done something, it's easy you want to move on? Have you not just completed this now is it not time to move on to something else? Benjamin Dennehy 1:08:19 It is I've got like 12 months left and then I've gone What has gone mean I'll be doing no more in house training. I'm gonna go travelling, taking the family we're leaving next year, we're going to go do something completely different. I've done very well out of this. I've been blessed and so it's time to have a bit of a change. That's why I've set up my online portal, the my new sales platform, the sales matrix courses.com That's going to be an ongoing creation it's going to become a huge library of all my knowledge content videos, everything's going to be there. It's a subscription model. So this is just to create a passive income but I've always said to everybody, I know this annoys some people but the purpose of getting really good at selling is so get out Yeah, people create businesses because they have at one point they have an exit they'd like to sell it because they want to get out now they may go off and set up another business that's fine and the same was for me my ultimately you want to get to a position when you build a business or a brand where you don't have to go out everyday and sell it people just give you money for it that's that's the dream you just yeah, the irony is you get good at selling to become an order taker. Mark Ackers 1:09:42 Benjamin up, I've loved having you on the podcast. It's been really good to talk to you and I genuinely feel like I could sit for another hour and just ask you questions and and watch you go. What would you say to someone that perhaps has had a lot light bulb moment now they're like, Okay, I don't add a cell. What do I do? I feel like you've slightly answered that. But like perhaps a just in that raw, they're too scared to make that change. They know they need to make a change, but you're too scared. What would you sign off bit of advice be Benjamin Dennehy 1:10:18 toughen up. You got to conquer your fear. If you're scared, and it is scary, and you've got to commit to wanting to get better. Yeah. And you're going to realise it's going to take your own money and your own time. Yeah, no one owes you an education. No one owes you a career. No one owes you anything. You have to go out and make it yourself. Yeah. And, look, it's not hard to just get by in sales. It's not hard. That's fine. And if that's what you want for yourself, then that's fine, too. Not everybody has to be really good at something. Yeah, I mean, I again, I use lawyers all the time. You've got crap lawyers, your average lawyers, and you got Casey's? Yeah, not everyone. If every lawyer was a Casey, there'd be no point to a Casey. Right. So every profession has its categories. If you want to get to the KC level, if you want to be someone that makes a lot of money, but does as little work as people that do average, then great. If you just want to make 50k a year and be happy on that fine. So you got to find what's gonna make you happy. I think go for it. But yeah, it's not every one that we have the top 1% for a reason. Only 1% get there. And only 5% Get to the 5%. If everyone's trying to get there, then then the 5% ceases to be the 5%. So I tried realistic with people. It's not everyone's job to excel in life, just excel. To the extent that you want to excel, there's nothing wrong with being average. There's only something wrong with being average, if you average and you're hated. Then you figure out how not to be average. Mark Ackers 1:12:10 I love that. I would like you to just nominate someone, someone that you think would be good to come on the podcast, talk about how they used to be crap, it sounds just, I'm going to send this clip to them. So I want you to look at the camera, and they're gonna watch what you're about to say. Take the time uniques you can crop that down. But when you're ready, please call someone out to come on there. I used to be crap at sales podcast. Benjamin Dennehy 1:12:35 Who would be good? I'm trying to also think it's not gonna be good for your audience. Have you interviewed Brad Bird? The sea Ease He's, he's got a lot he could bring up he set up for networking, became the largest networking organisation in the UK, then COVID almost destroyed it and then he went online. Now he's as a speaker. He's got a very different journey to me. But he's got a lot of insight. So I think he's certainly someone that I would suggest, obviously, invite him on. Okay, So Brad, if you're watching this, and you have the opportunity to chance to come on Mark's podcast, I do it because you've got a lot of knowledge, a lot of insight and a lot of experience that I know people watching this want to hear and could value as I have. So if you're up for it, let Mark know. Mark Ackers 1:13:37 Benjamin an absolute pleasure to have you on and thanks very much, Benjamin Dennehy 1:13:41 though. Thank you. It's been fun. I hope I didn't waffle too much. Thank you