Latest / The Lila Rose Show / E142: How She Broke Free From Fundamentalism w/ Jinger Duggar Vuolo

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E142: How She Broke Free From Fundamentalism w/ Jinger Duggar Vuolo · The Lila Rose Show

0:00
What would you say was the most challenging aspect of that kind
0:03
of a life being, being a reality star from a young.
0:06
Age. Probably one of the hardest
0:08
things was whenever you walk through challenges and trials
0:11
and it's also public. You can be in that place where
0:14
everybody's praising you one day and then the next day they're
0:17
all hating you and it reminds you just how dependent you are
0:21
on the Lord. What inspired you to write
0:23
Becoming Free Indeed. The harmful teachings of Bill
0:25
Gothard. It needed to be exposed and I
0:28
wanted to be able to help people who are still stuck in these
0:31
teachings. Did you wrestle with what to
0:33
share and what not to share? Was there times where like, this
0:35
is too personal? Ginger Volo, welcome to the
0:42
podcast. Thank you so much for having me.
0:45
So you are Some people know your background, some people may be
0:49
just learning it. You were a star of the hit
0:52
reality, multiple hit reality TV shows, and then you recently
0:55
wrote a book, Becoming Free. Indeed.
0:58
I'm excited to dive into all of it because your story is so
1:00
powerful. So let's just start with who is
1:03
Ginger? Tell us about your background.
1:05
Yeah. So I am probably most well known
1:09
from growing up in the Duggar family.
1:11
I'm one of 19 kids. I'm number six of the kids.
1:15
And we grew up in the public eye and we were on TV from the age I
1:21
was on TV from the age of like 10 all the way up until 27.
1:25
And so just like 3 1/2 years ago when the show ended, we had been
1:29
filming all of that time, a reality show.
1:32
So it's kind of crazy, crazy upbringing.
1:35
A lot of fun though. My parents pointed us to Jesus,
1:39
like they were such firm, like devout believers.
1:43
And so I was really thankful to like have a foundation of faith.
1:47
And my family was very close knit.
1:49
And so I was really grateful for that foundation that they laid
1:52
for us from an early age. And you just wrote a best
1:56
selling book, so tell us a little bit about that.
1:58
Yeah, so I just wrote a book. It's called Becoming Free
2:01
Indeed. And it is my journey of
2:03
disentangling faith from fear. And so I was raised in a setting
2:08
where I followed a teacher, Bill Gothard, who basically claimed
2:13
to speak for God, but he didn't. And he taught a lot of
2:16
legalistic rules, things that I would look back now and say
2:20
we're kind of cult like as teachings that I thought were
2:23
the Bible for so many years. But then looking back and
2:27
comparing that with the word of God, I realized, wow, like
2:29
that's not what it was. It was not the Bible at all.
2:32
It was just man made teachings. So I'd love to start with the
2:37
reality TV show upbringing and I know that you know, you have
2:40
such close rapport from what I can see with so many of your 19
2:44
or 18 sub legs, but what was it like growing up on reality TV?
2:49
It was so much fun really. I have so many awesome memories
2:52
of traveling with my family. I think that my parents always
2:57
sought to like make the best of whatever trips we would go on
3:01
before the show started. But it was also really
3:04
challenging with that many kids. It was tough to be able to
3:08
travel all the time or to get out and see sights and stuff.
3:12
And so once the show started, it was really cool because it kind
3:15
of kick started for our family, this awesome adventure that we
3:18
could go on learning together, going together, traveling across
3:23
the United States and then also outside of the country.
3:26
And so we basically with the show, they would come in, it was
3:31
like 3 to five days a week and every week of the year, every
3:35
week pretty much. I mean, there were a couple
3:37
times there were sometimes where they would take like little
3:40
breaks, but I mean, I, it didn't really feel like it.
3:43
I don't know, like, 'cause we were so used to them being
3:46
there. So like I wouldn't film every
3:47
single day because I had so many siblings.
3:49
So maybe like one day they would follow me to like a photography
3:54
shoot or something and then the next day they would go with Joe
3:57
to fix a car. And so they would kind of just
3:59
like jump around. And then another day we'd do
4:02
interviews for like 3 hours. And so it was just the life that
4:06
we knew growing up. And so the reality side of it
4:09
was like, for us, we would feel like the crew, they were like
4:12
our best friends and they were all just hanging out with us,
4:16
just filming what we're doing in everyday life.
4:18
And so it seemed very normal because that's basically what I
4:23
knew from the age of 10 all the way up.
4:25
And so whenever like you step outside of that, it's like,
4:28
wait, that was kind of crazy. Like, that was a unique, sweet
4:31
season, but it was a little wild.
4:35
Your parents, from what I understand, they were very like
4:38
this was done with a lot of intentionality in terms of their
4:42
decision to, I mean, have 19 kids, their decision to do
4:45
reality TV with their young children.
4:48
I mean, your, your mother was having babies while this filming
4:51
was happening. What went into their decision
4:53
making that you know of? Or how did they better question
4:55
would be how do they communicate that to you kids?
4:57
Like why the crew was there so often?
5:00
Yeah, I think that it was interesting because we grew up
5:04
having been in the bogothered system.
5:07
We didn't have cable TV in our house.
5:09
So being on TV and not having TV in our house was kind of like a
5:14
little confusing for a lot of people.
5:16
Like why would you do this? Why would you put your family on
5:18
TV when you won't even watch it yourself?
5:21
And so my parents, I remember when they were first approached
5:25
by the TV crew, it was first started out as like a
5:29
documentary. So there were about like, I
5:32
think 3 or 4 one hour documentaries that Discovery
5:35
Health did on my family and my parents before that.
5:39
They had prayed about it and they were like, I just, you
5:41
know, we want this to not be like a distraction for our
5:45
family. We went out all of our kids to
5:47
like think about this as a ministry and as like pointing
5:51
people to Jesus. And so that was like their main
5:55
heart and focus as to why they wanted to tell you.
5:59
Yes. And then that kind of just
6:03
basically as, as the show went on, they were very good about
6:07
like sitting down with us and just saying don't let this get
6:09
to your head because the older you got, you realize, like
6:13
people are stopping my mom everywhere.
6:14
She can't go anywhere in the grocery store.
6:16
It's crazy. Like anytime we travel, you're
6:19
getting stopped because it's like, it's just, you know, our
6:22
family is so unique. So we kind of stand out and they
6:25
just would always kind of keep us grounded just of a
6:28
conversation and the why behind why we were doing the show.
6:33
And that was so helpful and foundational.
6:36
Because I feel like without that, there are so many even
6:39
like child celebrities who like get in the spotlight, but
6:42
they're doing it alone. They're not able to be in a
6:45
place where they're able to talk about it.
6:47
Even as a family, you're not experiencing the same things
6:49
because it's like one child's pulled out of that.
6:51
And so I was thankful that it wasn't like that, that it was
6:53
like a family thing that we did. Because a lot of that really, it
6:58
kind of bonds you in a different way because you have this life
7:01
experience that maybe I feel like hardly anybody else could
7:05
understand. That's around you in your
7:08
community. And so, yeah, it was an
7:11
interesting, interesting process, but I feel like they
7:13
did such a good job walking us through it as kids.
7:16
Did you feel growing up, because I'm earning 10 year when you're
7:19
a 10 year old girl, you're about to hit puberty.
7:21
It's a very personal time, quite frankly.
7:24
I mean, your mom, of course, is having her own personal time,
7:26
having children. So these are really intimate
7:28
moments. Did you feel that you were able
7:32
to express there was a space for you to express your boundaries
7:35
and your feelings about the process and in A and it was done
7:37
in a way that you felt protected or were there times when you're
7:40
like this, this felt off for you growing up?
7:43
Yeah, I didn't really think too much about it.
7:46
I think I was so young. It just all seemed so normal.
7:49
And there would be, you know, a time or two where maybe the crew
7:53
would come into the girls room because we had like one big
7:55
girls room, 1 big boys room, and they would like come in and
7:58
maybe I was still in bed and I was like a little embarrassed.
8:00
So I'd just get under the covers or like wait till they moved or
8:03
they'd say, oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know somebody was still
8:05
sleeping. And then I'd like run and go get
8:07
ready, you know? So there were a couple times
8:09
that, like, something like that happened.
8:10
But for the most part, I think it was, it actually like, so
8:15
improved our quality of life in many ways that the show provided
8:20
more for our family than we had ever had.
8:22
And so I think that a lot of us, like, I can't speak for all my
8:26
siblings, but I mean, a lot of us really looked at it as like
8:29
such a positive thing. And it like gave us
8:32
opportunities that we never would have had otherwise.
8:36
So what was one of the like, most memorable and fun things
8:39
that you got to be a part of or do because of the reality show
8:42
growing up? It's a great question.
8:44
I had to think through like all the years.
8:48
I think really like the travels that we went on.
8:50
We got to travel overseas a lot. Eventually 19 of.
8:54
You, all of us, and then even some of the married siblings and
8:57
their kids would travel together.
8:59
My grandma would come with us on a lot of those trips.
9:02
She always wanted to go to Israel but never could make it
9:05
over there. And it was really cool because
9:07
she was able to take a trip with us over there to Israel and it
9:12
was like a dream for her. She was just thinking, wow, like
9:15
how could I be? You know, we were all able to
9:17
experience it together and I think that was such a memorable
9:20
trip. She since passed away.
9:23
And it's just amazing, like looking back at that because it
9:27
like growing up in such, you know, a large family, there are
9:32
also things you have to sacrifice.
9:33
You can't just fly everybody across the country because it's
9:36
so expensive. And so the show provided that.
9:39
And so the travels are something that I definitely will look back
9:44
at that. It was like my most fond memory
9:46
is just traveling as a family. I love that Israel is so
9:50
special. Obviously, there's so much
9:52
prayer that that whole region needs right now.
9:55
What is what would you say was the most challenging aspect of
9:58
that kind of a life? Being being a reality star from
10:02
a young age. I think probably one of the
10:04
hardest things was just like the negative sides that come with it
10:10
whenever you walk through challenges and trials, and it's
10:13
also public. And so I think that's something
10:16
that it really humbles you and it reminds you just how
10:23
dependent you are on the Lord, and it gets you on your face
10:26
before him because I think that you can be in that place where
10:30
everybody's praising you one day and then the next day they're
10:33
all hating you. And I think that it really jolts
10:37
you. And you see, like, I don't want
10:39
my identity be found in like being on reality TV or being
10:43
over here. I want it to be found in who I
10:46
am in Christ and what he thinks about me and not about what
10:49
other people think. And so I think the negative
10:52
sides, definitely negative comments, as anybody who is on
10:56
social media at all knows. I think so many people who now
11:00
they will have the same idea and like they'll get that same taste
11:03
of what it's like to be in a public place just because of,
11:07
you know, Instagram or wherever they are online, you'll have
11:10
those really harsh negative comments that will come.
11:14
And it just really makes you think, OK, why am I doing this?
11:18
And who am I trying to please? And so if you're trying to
11:21
please the wrong people, you're always going to be left empty
11:24
and void. And so I think walking through
11:28
such challenging times as a family and just so much pain and
11:33
brokenness that we endured, it's not easy like it.
11:38
It really is so hard being in a public place.
11:43
You just want to fade into the background and not to be known
11:47
in that time. But I think like looking at it
11:50
in a bigger picture, God knows why he allows that.
11:53
And I think that my parents, again, did such a good job of
11:57
pointing us to Jesus, even through the pain and through the
12:01
hardship and like, helping us not to just run and like, want
12:06
to isolate forever, you know, 'cause like that can be a
12:09
reaction, but just to trust in what God's doing.
12:14
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12:21
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You have your own kids now and we're going to get into the
14:00
book. But this is such AI think it's
14:01
beautiful. I get to watch from a distance
14:03
about how you're living your family life now and all the
14:06
choices you're making to love your kids and your family.
14:09
And then you're still sharing. You know, you have a public
14:11
ministry through obviously your book and speaking out on
14:14
different matters. We're going to get into some of
14:16
those details about the book, but I am curious how the
14:19
decisions you're making about your own kids.
14:21
Yeah, because you, I think you know, you, you have so far not
14:25
done reality TV at this time with your kids.
14:28
I'm sure you're getting those offers and those opportunities.
14:32
How are you approaching decision making about what to share, what
14:35
not to share, the level of exposure?
14:37
Yeah, it's so hard. I think even, you know, like
14:41
when you have kids, like it changes how you view life and
14:45
everything around you. And so for us, Jeremy and I
14:48
talked about it a lot, and it was one of the main
14:52
conversations we had before we even decided to have kids was
14:56
how are we going to handle this being in the public eye?
15:00
And the show is still going on. When we had Felicity and she was
15:05
born on the show, in a way, like I was very guarded about how
15:10
much I let them put on because I think that at that time I didn't
15:14
have as much freedom to choose. And so it was more of like a
15:19
thing where I realized, OK, this is what I, this is what I'm
15:22
required to do is to give some footage.
15:24
So we just took our own footage of the birth, of the birth that
15:28
we felt comfortable with. And that was what was aired for
15:32
Felicity. And then later on, like they
15:36
filmed all of her up until she was like maybe 2 1/2.
15:42
And then I was pregnant with, I had another pregnancy actually
15:48
in between the girls. I miscarried that that little
15:50
one. And that was also something that
15:53
was aired. But then after that, when I had
15:56
Evie, her show was the show was never aired.
16:00
They end up filming some, but then it was never aired because
16:03
the show was cancelled at that point.
16:04
And so it was something that we were actually kind of grateful
16:09
for just to see like, OK, we didn't want our kids in the
16:12
public eye. And that was something we had
16:15
decided we didn't want to do. And so we were actually very
16:17
grateful that that chapter of our lives had come to a close,
16:21
even though it was very hard and it was all very fast, too.
16:24
I think that was the other thing, because when you have
16:27
people in your house three to five days a week, and that was
16:31
like when before I was married, right?
16:34
Like at my parents' house, it was like we would film that many
16:37
days. The crew was always there and
16:39
they were like family to us. And so one of the producers, he
16:43
started out as a cameraman. So he was there the entire time
16:45
with us. And other ones were there like
16:47
1215 years. And so having those people
16:50
there, that was the hardest part to like break with and to like
16:54
have to say goodbye to them. But you didn't get to say.
16:56
Goodbye to you. Yeah, they were.
16:58
They had been there through everything, and I feel like they
17:03
understood more than anybody else, even your closest friends
17:07
around you, they understood your life.
17:09
And so the hardest part was just like realizing, OK, we're not
17:13
going to get to see them every week.
17:16
And so I think like when something you have like a career
17:20
or something's like kind of ripped out from underneath your
17:22
feet, it's like I trusted God. And I was so excited for that
17:26
next season and what the Lord was going to open up for us.
17:30
But it also was a jolt because it was all I had ever known and
17:36
it was just a huge transition for us.
17:39
How did how does, how you were raised and your experiences with
17:42
media, being on TV and now social media impact the choices
17:45
you're making about your own kids?
17:47
Yeah, I think initially it started out really, really good
17:50
and positive. I think the older you get, it's
17:54
harder because there are more relationships to juggle and
17:57
family and business come together and it, it is
18:00
difficult. And so I think that for our
18:02
kids, we've chosen to like keep their lives very private and not
18:06
show their faces on social media.
18:08
Try not to talk a lot about them.
18:10
Like even on we have a podcast now, but I've like try to talk
18:14
more about just our lives and things that are happening or
18:17
mention our kids and stuff. So we'll mention their names,
18:19
but not talking about every detail of their life and just
18:23
trying to give them as much privacy as we can.
18:26
Because there are details that I think the older you get, you
18:29
realize like, OK, maybe something shouldn't be shared.
18:33
And I don't have any. Like I'm not looking back at
18:36
those years of filming and having regret, like thinking, oh
18:41
man, I so wish I wasn't on TV 'cause I also see how God had
18:45
orchestrated that and used it and he's still using it today
18:49
even though it was hard. And there are days where, yes,
18:53
you might wish that, that you could just fade into the
18:56
background. But at the same time, I think
18:58
for our kids, there's like, it's a juggling act because social
19:01
media is still blowing up. We're all as parents realizing
19:05
like if you have 10 followers or 10,000 followers, you're still
19:08
realizing like this is just evolving.
19:11
We don't know the effects of this.
19:12
Kids having phones, all of these things that are around us.
19:15
And so we've just chosen to protect our kids and give them
19:19
privacy at this point. And then in the future, I don't
19:23
know where that will lead. I don't see us having a reality
19:27
show. Again, that's not something that
19:29
we're like desiring, but yeah, you never know.
19:33
I think we want to hold everything with an open hand and
19:35
say, As for now, where we are, this is our decision as a family
19:40
and what we think is best for our kids.
19:42
And then as they grow older and have their own opinions, like
19:45
we're open to like hearing what they have to say and seeing what
19:48
they want to do and exploring that.
19:50
I think there is a distinction between making the kids the main
19:53
character in what's shared publicly via social media or
19:56
reality or whatever, versus occasionally they're included,
19:59
but in a way that's still protective of them.
20:01
And I think a lot of people are wrestling with that.
20:03
I know, like influencers who, you know, previously maybe have
20:06
included their kids a lot in their content who are now
20:08
saying, I don't want to keep doing it.
20:10
Maybe when they're in a baby they're little bitty baby, but
20:13
now they're in these sensitive, tender years.
20:15
Where protection is even more important, and there's this push
20:18
against a reaction against it because we're realizing it comes
20:22
with these certain consequences and risks that some people maybe
20:24
didn't even realize before. Yeah, for sure.
20:27
I think so. I I definitely think that will
20:29
affect a lot of parents and their decisions moving forward.
20:32
And that's that's where it started for us too.
20:34
And as soon as I got on social media, I was older when I got on
20:38
Instagram, but still just seeing all of the negativity that comes
20:42
there. And there is also a lot of good
20:46
that can come from that. And so like I said earlier, it's
20:49
like the why behind it, Why are we sharing this and who are we
20:53
trying to please? And what do I want to get back
20:55
from this? So when I want to share, I'll
20:57
share something on there. And then other times we'll,
21:00
we'll keep some things private and we we won't share every
21:02
single detail of our kids lives with the world.
21:06
Yeah, so when what inspired you to write?
21:08
Becoming free indeed. Well, that was a long process,
21:13
really for me. To get to the place where I was
21:15
ready to write this book was hard because it had been years
21:20
of me working through and processing the journey, coming
21:24
out of the harmful teachings of Bill Gothard and coming into
21:28
freedom myself in Christ, and not abandoning everything that I
21:33
had learned in my faith. But the challenge was I saw
21:38
people all around me who were just totally abandoning
21:43
everything. They were running to the world
21:45
looking for answers there. Meaning that had grown up in the
21:48
bill. Got a grown up yes yeah, totally
21:51
and they. Just totally rejected.
21:52
Everything. Everything.
21:53
Like a ton of my friends were just running away from that
21:55
system. And really quick for, for those
21:59
that don't know the name, Bill Gothard, I think because we were
22:01
both homeschooled, so I knew and we were both, I think, raised
22:05
evangelical. So I, I, I was adjacent to that
22:07
world. I think because I knew people
22:10
like from a distance involved, but I wasn't directly involved.
22:13
And I know some of our listeners may have heard the name, but
22:15
just for folks clarity, who is Bill Gothard?
22:18
Yeah, So Bill Gothard, he was somebody who came on the scene
22:22
in the 60s and 70s, seventies. He was promising a guarantee for
22:26
families. He said if you follow my 7 basic
22:28
life principles, then your life will be a success.
22:32
And all you have to do is to like listen to these lectures.
22:35
He had 60 plus hours of basic seminar that you could listen
22:39
to. And he said if you do this,
22:42
you're going to be a light to the nation's.
22:43
You're going to have the perfect family.
22:45
They're all going to turn out well.
22:47
You're going to be protected from your kids, will be
22:50
protected from the sexual revolution that's happening all
22:52
around them. And they will grow up to be
22:56
mighty in spirit and to, like I said, lead nations.
23:00
And so that was his promise and guarantee.
23:02
And so a lot of parents in that time were freaking out because
23:05
they were looking at the world around them.
23:07
The rebellion of kids was so bad.
23:09
And they just said, we need an answer.
23:11
So it was crazy because Bill Gothard, at that time, he
23:15
started filling up massive stadiums.
23:17
So he had thousands of people who would come, they would fill
23:20
up these stadiums and he would teach them his basic life
23:24
principle seminars. And it was wild because I feel
23:29
like even some, you know, like decently well-rounded good
23:34
churches would go there. They would send their people
23:36
there because initially the teaching started out where it
23:40
had some good things. He had like a lot of good things
23:42
to say. It's a lot of people reasonable.
23:45
And so they would like get hooked in his teachings.
23:48
But then he very quickly started to add more teachings to where
23:53
he would bind your conscience to something.
23:55
So he'd say, I want you to make a vow before God that you will
23:58
read your Bible for 5 minutes every day, or I want you to make
24:02
a vow to like a single service commitment to where you're not
24:05
going to get married for so many years.
24:06
Whatever you feel the Lord lays on your heart.
24:08
What? Happens if you accidentally
24:09
break the vow of reading the Bible.
24:11
Well, that's the thing. Because you're not supposed to.
24:12
I mean even the Bible says like get let your yes, yes and your
24:15
nobody. Knows.
24:15
Yeah, and it's. Scared if you get sick, and I
24:18
mean would that mess with people's head?
24:21
It would. And that's, that's the whole
24:22
premise of the teachings. They were all based in fear.
24:25
And so for me as a young girl, I went to his seminar at the age
24:29
of 12. You could go.
24:30
And so I went there and I made this commitment and it was
24:34
something that terrified me because immediately he said,
24:39
after you made the commitment, he's like, don't you, you know,
24:42
forget to pay this vow that you made to God?
24:45
If you do, he's like, it would been better for you to like not
24:48
hear these teachings and to hear them and depart from them.
24:51
And so it kind of like gripped you in fear.
24:54
And then he would tell these stories about people who
24:58
basically, like, it was superstitious stories about how,
25:02
you know, like, objects could cause people to, like, die.
25:07
And like, if, if if you had a picture of a painting on your
25:10
wall, this is one story he told. There was a woman who bought a
25:14
ship painting. She hung it on her wall while
25:17
her husband and three sons ended up dying at sea.
25:21
So this pastor comes over, talks to her, and he's like, why do
25:24
you think they died? And Bill Gothard is recounting
25:27
the story, and she's like, I don't know.
25:30
I'm like, so heartbroken. And he said, it's the picture on
25:32
your wall of the ship. And she's like, I didn't know.
25:36
I didn't know. That's what caused them to die.
25:38
So like, immediately take it out.
25:39
And it's like, at what point do you think that that's actually
25:42
helping people? But he would connect, like,
25:45
superstition to things. And so he would have you make
25:47
vows, but then he would say if you had.
25:50
Like superstition can be good. It's like he would say, it's
25:53
like that's what's going to cause.
25:54
So a very simple cause and effect sequence, that's how we
25:58
live our lives, is by cause and effect sequences.
26:01
And so whether it was a Cabbage Patch doll that you happen to
26:05
have in your house that could bring in evil spirits, there
26:09
were times where it was like, you know, just little things
26:13
that he would come up with and he would say, now this is the
26:16
new rule basically. And so you need to follow this.
26:20
And if you don't, then you're going to bring damnation upon
26:24
yourself. And it was a really scary way to
26:26
live because once you make a vow to God like, then you do want to
26:30
keep that. But it's just the way that it
26:33
was done was not right. And it was in fear.
26:38
And so that was he was very comfortable placing burdens upon
26:41
people that they couldn't carry and they couldn't fulfill.
26:45
And I think that that was something that for many years I
26:49
even as like I was, became a born again believer at the age
26:52
of 14 and my life really changed.
26:54
I wanted to love God. I wanted to obey him.
26:57
But the thing that was hard for me was once I was a believer, I
27:01
was like, OK, I really, I know all these rules.
27:04
Like I know all that Bill Gothard wants me to do.
27:07
And I would look at his teachings as the word of God.
27:09
So then I like went more hardcore into it because I
27:14
thought this is the way that I'm going to please God.
27:17
What? Would that look like to go more
27:18
hardcore? And, yeah, so just like, abiding
27:21
by his dress code standards. So I have journal entries, and I
27:27
put a couple of these in the book, but some I didn't.
27:29
But there was one time I was like, oh, I'm so convicted about
27:31
my modesty because my skirt is maybe when I sit down, it's not
27:36
the right length below my knee. And it needs to be, you know, so
27:39
many inches. And like, I don't want to, you
27:42
know, like, I couldn't buy a sleeveless shirt, but I could
27:44
roll my sleeves up in the sun. So like, they're all these
27:47
legalistic rules that he would put on you of things you can and
27:50
can't do. So I basically just leaned
27:53
heavily into that, like, no drums and music because then
27:56
you're going to call demons. And so I was very careful if I
28:00
ever heard, you know, somebody turn on music with drums.
28:03
I was just so afraid and I wanted to get away from it.
28:06
And so I was like a rule follower to the Max and just
28:11
wanted to do what was right before God.
28:14
But sadly I was just following the span's teachings instead of
28:17
realizing, wait, that's not what the Bible even says.
28:19
Like I need to read it for myself and to disentangle the
28:23
truth from the error and see what God's word actually says.
28:26
At what point did you have this awakening of, OK, these rules
28:30
are in the access. I mean, we could call them
28:32
fundamentalist, right? Where you saw whether it's the
28:36
dress code of the skirt to a certain like long, long skirt,
28:39
nothing sleeveless, or it has to do even with the teachings on
28:43
sex. And I want to get into that in a
28:44
minute because I see, you know, we recently did a series at live
28:48
action called The Truth about Sex where we criticize,
28:51
obviously the sexual revolution, which is insanity, but then some
28:54
of the reactions to it, which can be an excess and that would
28:58
be some of the excesses of purity culture.
29:00
So, but I, I want to start with your kind of awakening, like
29:03
what, at what point did you start to realize this is, this
29:08
is not what God is asking of me. This is something that Bill
29:11
Gothard is asking of me. Yeah, it actually took me so
29:15
many years. It wasn't until I met my now
29:18
husband Jeremy, where I feel like I was able to actually
29:22
question for the first time these teachings.
29:25
And it kind of started out like in a trickle a little bit.
29:29
My brother-in-law married into the family and he had a little
29:32
bit of different like theology than us.
29:34
And so he basically like at their church they would teach
29:37
verse by verse of the Bible. So they were like, not just
29:41
taking a topic and then teaching on it and making the Bible say
29:44
whatever they wanted to say. So it was like helpful.
29:46
He was handling the word of God in a very different way.
29:48
So seeing that, it actually challenged me to read the Bible
29:51
differently. So I started to see things in
29:54
the Bible where I was like, OK, I didn't see that before.
29:57
But it wasn't until Jeremy and I started talking.
30:02
It was so we were dating. We were technically courting in
30:07
our setting. So it was like we had to go
30:10
through a very formal courtship process.
30:13
Jeremy talked to my dad for 5 1/2 months before we could talk
30:17
just about theology. And he had to have his.
30:19
How did you even meet Jeremy? So I met Jeremy through my
30:22
brother-in-law. That same brother-in-law was
30:24
talking about Ben. He introduced us.
30:27
And it was really cool because he was like, yeah, there's this
30:31
guy. He's like pastoring a small
30:33
church on the border of Mexico. And I was like, oh, that's cool,
30:37
you know. So we ended up meeting him.
30:39
He actually stopped in at Bill Gothard conference that my
30:43
family was at and I'm going. To go collect my wife.
30:45
Crazy. He didn't know anything about
30:48
it. Didn't know what it was so.
30:49
He had no clue. Yeah.
30:50
So he showed up at this conference and he was like, wow,
30:53
Everybody kind of looks the same.
30:54
Like, OK, but they're all really extra nice.
30:57
Like everybody has this certain vibe about them, like massive
31:02
smiles, like constant, Like they're all rejoicing, They're
31:07
all happy, like all the time. He's like, wow, this is
31:09
interesting. And he showed up there.
31:12
A lot of it, it depends on from person to person.
31:15
It's really hard to know. Some people, yes, I think a lot
31:18
of it can be genuine. But Bill Gothard also was very
31:22
good about telling us how we need to react.
31:23
We need to have a perfect greeting and we need to always
31:26
be rejoicing. And a lot of that is in
31:28
Scripture, right? Like rejoice always.
31:30
But there's also a side of it where it becomes not real 'cause
31:33
you can't have real conversations with people 'cause
31:36
it's like, are you just putting on a front 'cause you're always
31:38
rejoicing? And.
31:39
You have to be able to mourn when you need to mourn and be,
31:42
you know, grieved when you need to be grieved.
31:44
I mean, that's. Also, there's the balance.
31:45
Part of the life of Jesus Christ and.
31:47
Scriptural for sure. That's exactly right.
31:50
And I think that that was kind of, it felt like it was missing
31:53
at times. So anyhow, he walks into this
31:55
world and he meets my family and we ended up meeting that day.
32:00
But it wasn't until I saw him and I was like, OK, he's like,
32:04
he's good looking and stuff. But he is, he was older than me
32:08
by he's like 6 1/2 years older than me.
32:10
So I was like, OK, he's not going to be interested in me.
32:13
I had other siblings and stuff like that.
32:15
So I was like, surely he's not interested in me.
32:19
So I just kind of left it at that.
32:21
And it wasn't until about maybe like 5 or 6 months later where
32:25
my brother-in-law, Ben, sent him a video.
32:28
We were talking about like witnessing and sharing the
32:30
gospel with people. And I did a little video with my
32:33
brother-in-law. And so like he had shared that
32:36
with Jeremy. And then they really, he was
32:39
like, yeah, what do you think about Ginger or whatever?
32:41
And kind of threw that out there.
32:43
And so Jeremy ended up like having interest.
32:46
And so he signed up for a missions trip we would go on
32:48
every year to El Salvador as a family.
32:50
We go to El Savador and Honduras for like 2 to 3 weeks.
32:54
And so he just signed up super last minute for that on a
32:57
mission to get to know me because he knew it would be away
33:00
from like the crew was not going to follow us that time.
33:03
And so it would be more of like a time where we could just talk
33:07
and he could get to know me a little bit.
33:10
And so that's what happened on that trip.
33:12
He ended up asking my dad if he could like, get to know me
33:15
better. And my dad's like, oh, yeah,
33:17
that's, that's fine. He said maybe we'll talk to each
33:19
other for a couple weeks and then you can talk to Ginger
33:22
after that. And then ended up those couple
33:25
weeks turned into 5 1/2 months. And so by the time my dad and
33:29
mom, like, they gave their approval, then we started
33:32
talking. How old were you?
33:34
I was 22. So do you like even that?
33:38
Do you think that that, I mean, there's beauty in parents caring
33:41
so much because some parents don't care enough, right?
33:44
So obviously there's can be extremes on both sides, but like
33:46
how do you, how do you see that looking back on that now?
33:48
Yeah, looking back, I think there were.
33:50
You do that with your daughters, I guess would be, you know,
33:52
it's. Interesting.
33:53
Looking at the girls now I'm like, I feel like daughters are
33:56
different. Like, it's harder.
33:58
It would be harder to like let go at some point.
34:00
And I don't have any boys. Good to bet the guy.
34:03
I mean, I think there's a lot of value in.
34:04
That I think a lot of it too also was because we were in the
34:07
public eye. And so that's we had like, I
34:10
mean, 25 letters come in and it's like, OK, you don't know
34:14
these guys from Adam. Jeremy was an outsider.
34:16
He was not somebody that we really knew.
34:18
My brother-in-law knew him, but only for, like, you know, five
34:21
to six months. And so any time that somebody
34:24
would come in that you didn't know, it's a longer process
34:28
because you're like, why are you here?
34:31
Jeremy hadn't watched the show. Like, he hadn't really watched
34:33
it. He lives in a family's house
34:35
who, like, would turn it on. And he'd be like, oh, that's so
34:38
weird. Like, you know, he kind of,
34:39
like, almost make fun of it at times, but it was just because
34:43
it was so different from his world.
34:45
And so when he met me, he wasn't even thinking about that.
34:48
He actually came in one of the hardest seasons of our lives
34:51
when we were walking through the most painful time we've walked
34:54
through publicly, that's when he showed up.
34:56
So it really was like he came in in the midst of that.
35:00
And I thought like, OK, if a guy can see that and the hardship
35:04
that we're walking through and not be turned off by that and
35:08
also respect to my dad and what he had put out for him to do.
35:12
I was like, he is the real deal. Like he has a heart of gold.
35:15
I could see I knew he loved God. I knew he loved his word.
35:18
He was serving in a very not easy place to serve and it was
35:24
sweet to see his heart just in so many ways through that.
35:27
So that process was not, I think there were a lot of things that,
35:32
yes, we probably would have changed once we were talking.
35:36
I think there were like a lot of rules that were placed upon
35:38
couples when you needed to have a conversation alone.
35:42
It was impossible. So like, OK, I'll call you at
35:44
night. Like we'll talk on the phone.
35:47
And so I think that some of that was imbalanced, but for the most
35:52
part, I think that because we were in such a public place,
35:56
some of it was needful. It worked.
35:57
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37:57
So he came during that season. So you mentioned the hard times
38:00
a couple times and obviously folks watching some of them may
38:02
be familiar with your book already and your whole story.
38:05
But for those that weren't, who aren't yet, if you're willing,
38:09
can you share what was that hard time?
38:11
Yeah, I can talk about it. I will probably get emotional
38:14
because it's hard to still talk about this day.
38:20
But yeah, the hard season was when my brother was found out to
38:26
be living a lie, a double life. And it just really, it was so
38:32
hard for all of us to walk through that publicly and to see
38:36
how how much brokenness and pain is it caused his family, his
38:42
kids and all. And all of us who had to deal
38:46
with that and set aside the public stuff that doesn't even
38:51
matter when you're in that place.
38:52
You just, you just realize like, yeah, it can, it can make
38:56
everything seem a little harder in the moment, but at that point
38:58
you're just thinking, man, like it just shakes you because this
39:03
person you thought you knew, you didn't know.
39:06
And so I think that with that, we move forward as a family and
39:15
began to heal. And then there was another round
39:17
of of that again that was worse. And so I think.
39:22
Totally like the because I remember, I mean, I met your
39:26
brother at this one point, you know, when I was living in DC
39:28
and he was getting involved in politics.
39:30
And so you obviously when you meet someone, you may have a
39:32
initial thoughts or feelings. It's like quick snapshot.
39:35
But did you were was the family surprised, very surprised when
39:39
that second wave of truth came out about him?
39:44
Or was it more like there was not as much surprise I.
39:47
Think, I think when the second round came out, it wasn't as
39:50
surprising. I think some, some may have been
39:53
caught off guard, but a lot of us I think had our guard up and
39:58
we were not as trusting anymore. And I think that at that point,
40:03
when you walk through something like that, you have to just, you
40:08
almost protect yourself emotionally.
40:10
And so I think that that's kind of where a lot of us probably
40:13
were. And it was hard.
40:17
It was a very difficult season. And through it all, like I said
40:20
earlier, I think I realized God uses all of those things to
40:24
humble us, to keep us on our face before him.
40:26
Because we could not be arrogant and proud and think that, you
40:29
know, our family has it all together.
40:31
We have it all together. We all have to be dependent on
40:33
God every day to keep us from sin, from walking in a way
40:36
that's not pleasing to him, from, you know, bringing a blot
40:40
against his name publicly. And so that's something that is
40:44
like a burned in reminder for us now and moving forward.
40:48
It just makes you think like you cannot, you cannot handle sin
40:54
lightly and it's not OK. And I think that that's the
40:58
lessons that we walk away from now.
41:00
And see God uses all of that, the pain trials to like help
41:05
other people who are in that place and to be able to like,
41:07
reach out to them and minister to them.
41:10
And it's not something that we ever would have wanted.
41:14
But we're, you know, still in a place where it's painful and
41:18
hard because it will never be easy whenever one of your
41:22
siblings has chosen that path because you want them to be in a
41:27
place that's right before God and to not hurt other people.
41:32
And I think that that's something that will will be
41:37
difficult for a very long time. One of the things that we've, I
41:41
mean, I know live action has done a lot of work on and then
41:43
I'm passionate about is obviously sexual abuse and
41:47
exposing it. Covering the cover up of it is
41:49
part of the problem with it because unfortunately, and this
41:52
exists in the Catholic Church. I mean, there's some horrible
41:55
scandals in especially in the 90s, but you know, the scandal
41:59
of covering up the sexual abuse of a, of a priest, you know,
42:02
someone who's in a position of spiritual authority, who's doing
42:05
evil things. It happens in the evangelical
42:07
world. It's something that I mean, our
42:09
fallen human nature, this can happen, but then the additional
42:13
problem is when it happens and then it there's not justice,
42:15
right? And there's not accountability
42:17
and protection of the victims. I don't know if there's anything
42:19
you want to share about just your perspective on even just
42:23
the, the sin, not just of sexual abuse, but the sin also of cover
42:27
up or the fallout from it and how that's dealt with.
42:30
Or just having gone through all the things you've gone through,
42:32
you know your perspective on how to best protect victims and make
42:37
sure there's protection for future potential victims.
42:41
Any any thoughts on that? Yeah, I think that having walked
42:45
through a lot of painful things around that, like it is sad to
42:51
see how many times things are just covered up and not taken
42:55
care of and dealt with. And I think Bill Gother did that
42:58
too. There was so many things that
43:01
happened, the allegations against him, there was a lawsuit
43:05
and it was all just like, no, that's not right.
43:08
It's not accurate. You know, a lot of denial.
43:11
There was cover up with his brother, things like that that
43:13
are happening within these settings.
43:15
That's with, you know, a cult like thing.
43:17
But then when you move to the church, it's the same.
43:19
Sadly. There are so many places where I
43:21
think you're not exempt when you're in a setting that it's so
43:26
easy for people to put on a face of wanting to be something and
43:31
wanting to be in leadership or wanting to deal with the
43:34
vulnerable. And that is such a great place
43:38
if you have a good heart and you genuinely want to serve people.
43:42
But then also can be dangerous on the flip side, because you
43:45
can see that taking advantage of the weak in the vulnerable who
43:50
come to a place for refuge like a church, then that's even more
43:55
difficult. And it's traumatic for somebody
43:58
if they come to that place for help and then they're harmed
44:00
there. And I think that that's
44:02
something that we do see, sadly, that will come up time and time
44:06
again. And those people will stand
44:08
before God ultimately with like such great judgement.
44:12
Because if you are taking advantage of the widow, the
44:16
fatherless, the orphan, those who come and need refuge, then
44:20
you are going to be, yes, you're going to be judged so much
44:24
greater. And so I think that that is
44:26
something that is like in the brokenness of this world, we can
44:30
look around and see the pain, the suffering, all the things
44:33
that are going wrong, but we know in the end, ultimately that
44:37
God will win and truth will prevail.
44:40
And so there have been so many times where you see something
44:43
and you're like, oh, like, if only this could be taken care of
44:47
now because the pain is so real, the hurt is so real, and we want
44:52
to protect the vulnerable. We're doing all we can to do
44:54
that, and sometimes justice in this world won't be served as we
44:59
wish it would be. And that's something that's hard
45:02
to reckon with. It's hard to just know how to
45:06
handle it. But I think that ultimately,
45:10
like looking to our future hope, we do all we can.
45:13
We need to fight against that. We need to expose sin.
45:17
We need to speak up when something's not right.
45:21
We need to be bold. And then at the end of the day,
45:24
once all of that has gone through the proper means, then
45:29
it's like we know that this world is broken and it can't all
45:34
be fixed now. And it's a hard reality, but
45:37
it's also comforting knowing that God is not just letting
45:42
these things happen and looking the other way.
45:45
But there will be justice served in the end.
45:48
And it's like a difficult reminder, but it's also like
45:53
comforting at the same time. I think in the, this happened
45:57
obviously in the Catholic and multiple dioceses.
46:00
And then I've seen it and heard of it happening obviously in the
46:02
evangelical world. And it can happen in any
46:04
institution. But this desire to cover up to
46:08
protect status or to protect image or to protect any number
46:11
of things. And then also like, you know,
46:13
well, it's he said, she said, you know, this kind of eagerness
46:16
to disbelieve the victim because the victim is inconvenient.
46:21
And so, you know, but I do think that there's some progress being
46:25
made. The more people speak up.
46:27
You know, I think your testimony is so powerful.
46:29
And the more people, you know, the more evil is exposed because
46:32
people realize we can't just cover things up anymore.
46:35
How do you think? How is your family doing after
46:38
all of all of the fallout? Because I know it's extensive
46:41
and it obviously effects you, but it affects everyone.
46:44
Yeah, for sure. It's hard for me to to be able
46:48
to say, I don't want to speak for my family, but just looking
46:52
at how they're doing today, I think that they're all just
46:56
trying to do the best they can to heal and move forward.
47:00
And like I said, that pain will still be there.
47:04
I think for all of us, it'll be there forever probably.
47:10
But I think that ultimately, looking at how the family is
47:15
doing, I think that they're handling everything as well as
47:17
they. Can what's the what kind of
47:20
impact bacteria or kind of the the thread of disentangling, I
47:25
think is the word you use from the fundamentalism and
47:27
discovering freedom in Christ. You write about the Gothard's
47:32
teaching on sex and there's a lot of emphasis and Gothard's
47:35
teaching on sex. My understanding is on it's kind
47:38
of a one way St. sexual satisfaction.
47:40
So really focus on you need to be sexually available ready, you
47:44
know, just a soft place to land for the husband and the wife's
47:48
job is to bring life into the world and kind of be in the
47:51
home. And if you're not, you know, in
47:55
shape, beautiful, have a well managed home, always sexually
47:59
available no matter what, then it's your fault if your husband
48:03
makes a mistake or is unfaithful, quite frankly.
48:06
And that's a particularly damaging teaching to a whole
48:10
generation of women as a reaction to the sexual
48:12
revolution, because I think it's focusing instead on a man's
48:15
sexual passions as again, somehow being it's OK for the
48:19
man's sexual passions to be uninhibited in a marriage.
48:21
It's like take, take lustful passion and just channel it
48:25
through marriage. But the problem with that is
48:28
it's the objectification then of the wife as opposed to mutual
48:30
self gift between the spouses. I, I love one of the reasons I,
48:33
I fell in love with the Catholic teaching is that it's all about
48:36
self, mutual self gift. And it's not just woman submits
48:39
to man, but it's a mutual self gift in sex, in life and love.
48:43
And you're required to be chased in inside and outside of
48:46
marriage. It's not just you go to marriage
48:48
and you do whatever you want. How did how did your experience,
48:51
what your family went through and then even your relationship
48:54
meeting and falling in love with your husband, How did that
48:56
impact your views on sex? Yeah, I think that within Bill
48:59
Gothard's setting, like you said, it was very warped view.
49:03
I think that it was very oppressive towards women.
49:07
And like you said, we're in like my view now is not one of OK,
49:13
I'm going to be this woman. I'm be this strong leader.
49:15
I'm like, do everything that a man does just because I can.
49:18
Like, I'm not in that place. You're not, you're not the not a
49:20
feminist feminist of I'm going to do whatever I want.
49:23
But at the same time, I think that there was such a warped
49:26
view in Bill Gothard's setting where it was like, exactly like
49:30
you said, the woman has to perform.
49:32
She has to always be ready. She has to always be available
49:35
and look gorgeous, which is just hard to do sometimes.
49:39
And I think that that put a lot of pressure on women.
49:42
And in that setting, I feel like it really made it tough for them
49:46
to feel like they were able to like enjoy the marriage and
49:51
relax. I can't speak for everyone, but
49:52
I, I would say that you could see women who are having so many
49:57
kids, which I don't have a problem with that.
49:59
Like, I think that there are different convictions on that
50:01
within the church. And those who will, you know,
50:06
look at look at the number of kids that you have as, you know,
50:10
like we are, you can do natural family planning or you can't,
50:14
you know, And I think that a lot of those things are debated
50:16
amongst Christians. But I think that within this
50:20
setting of Bill Gothard, it really was hard for women
50:24
because they felt like all they were doing was just being trying
50:28
to like, keep up trying to meaning.
50:30
They had certain way. They had to have a lot of
50:33
children if they were. What if they weren't able to
50:35
have? Yeah, and if they weren't able
50:36
to have kids. Or they were not able to have as
50:39
many as what seemed to be the standard.
50:41
Yeah, that's the other thing, that it would just make you feel
50:43
less than because what am I supposed to do now because I
50:47
can't work outside the home? So you were prohibited from
50:49
working outside the home? So if you're a woman, you
50:51
weren't really supposed to work outside the home unless you were
50:53
working for your dad and it was kind of like a thing or Bill
50:57
Gothard, unless you're working for Bill Gothard and you could
51:00
be 15 and working for Bill. Gothard Bill Gothard knew that
51:03
women make great workers, but they can only work for him.
51:06
Very convenient SO. It is convenient.
51:08
But 15 year old girls? Working for him.
51:10
And that's where some of the allegations against his whole
51:12
crew came in, because there was a objectification and even
51:16
sexualization of girls working for him.
51:18
That's for sure. And it really was a challenge.
51:20
And I think once I saw that like and and stepped outside of that
51:25
world, looking back into it, I thought how would I ever think
51:28
it was good for these 1516 year old girls who would say, I'm
51:32
going to give you something better than education.
51:34
Come work at my headquarters and they would go work for him and I
51:37
just like, it wasn't like they were always working alone with
51:40
him, but still, what would they? Be doing what kind of?
51:43
Jobs. They were like working in the
51:45
mail room or they were traveling to other countries, you know,
51:50
presenting character curriculum in schools or whatever it was
51:54
that he had these different jobs for them to do.
51:56
We're leading girls trips. Whenever people would come to
51:59
his headquarters, then they would be the leaders.
52:02
And it was always the girls who were like the models.
52:04
They were so pretty. We'd always say, like, if they
52:07
were blonde, we'd be like, oh, that's a Gothard girl.
52:10
Or like, we put on a wig once And like at a store, I feel like
52:15
it's Claire's. They have those like, long
52:16
blonde wigs. So like, we put it on and we're
52:20
like, oh, now we could be a Gothard girl.
52:22
Not even thinking of what that meant.
52:24
And we were so young and it was like an honor if you got asked
52:29
to go work for him. And I think some parents I had,
52:33
you know, friends where their parents were like, no, you're
52:36
going to go to college. You're going to actually like
52:38
stay at home. You're going to finish your high
52:40
school. And then you're going to like,
52:42
go on and like get it, get an education.
52:45
But a lot of them were so they felt so indebted to Bill Gothard
52:51
for these teachings that they would send their kids there to
52:54
work for him. And so I think that the the view
52:57
of sex and the view of the women's roles were so messed up
53:02
that when I got married, I was very passive.
53:05
And Jeremy really had to pull and work on me in a way.
53:08
Like, no, I want to hear your, I want to hear what you have to
53:11
say. But I was so afraid of even
53:12
telling my opinion. Like if you'd say, OK, where do
53:15
you want to go for dinner? I could have told him it wasn't
53:17
a sin for me to tell him like, Hey, I want I want steak tonight
53:20
or let's do tacos, you know, like, but I was so like,
53:24
whatever you want, babe, whatever you want.
53:26
Like I was so in that mindset to where I couldn't even really
53:31
think for myself. And Jeremy noticed that and
53:34
really, really helped me. He wanted to hear my heart.
53:37
He wanted to hear what I had to say.
53:38
If I had an opinion on something, something that he had
53:40
said that I didn't like, he wants to hear it.
53:43
And so he really worked. And like, it was so sweet
53:46
because I was afraid to talk to him about things that mattered
53:49
for so long. But he was so patient with me
53:53
and still is to this day at times when I like you'll switch
53:56
back into that mode because like you're so afraid because it was
54:00
like drilled into you. You have to be a certain way or
54:03
your husband's not going to be pleased with you.
54:05
And Jeremy has just been like so helpful.
54:08
It's taken, you know, all of these years working through that
54:11
and like, you know, when you're pregnant, it's like, oh, now I
54:14
don't feel so pretty, but he's like, no, it's like, don't worry
54:17
about that. Like you're fine.
54:18
Like you don't have to perform. You don't have to be a certain
54:20
way. Look a certain way.
54:22
He's like, I just want to know you for who Ginger actually is.
54:25
And like in every stage of life, I'm with you, you know, until
54:29
like the Lord has its part ways at death.
54:32
And so it's like that comforting reassurance, knowing that like,
54:37
I don't have to be a certain way for him.
54:41
And like, he's so patient and like, we're A-Team everything
54:45
that we do, like whether I'm writing a book or like doing a
54:49
project, he's helping out, you know, with the kids or like
54:52
finding somebody to help with them.
54:54
And like we're A-Team. We're not, we're not like he's
54:58
just at work. And then I, I have to do all the
55:00
things. It's a joy to be at home.
55:02
It's a joy to like be able to raise my kids, pour, pour into
55:06
them and all of those things. I'm not saying that like
55:09
motherhood is such a gift. And I think that's like often
55:11
overlooked in our culture. But at the same time, I'm like
55:15
looking at what Bill Gothard said it was supposed to be in
55:18
those imbalances and just seeing how far how much growth can
55:22
happen when you have a right perspective of what God is
55:25
required of you and what he's designed marriage to be as a
55:28
beautiful gift from God. Two people coming together
55:31
wanting to glorify God, Co laborers and gospel and life
55:35
together. They're laying down our lives
55:38
for one another as Christ would the church and the husband and
55:41
the wife, you know. And I think that, like you said,
55:43
it's just the beauty of that where I had not thought it would
55:49
be, you know, like I looked at my life when I was like 14 and I
55:52
thought, OK, I have all the answers for if my kids rebel.
55:55
I have I have all the answers from Bill Gother on what to do
55:58
if you know I have marriage problem put.
56:00
Them in long. Skirts do it in terms that we
56:03
don't like kids skirts, but so yeah, seriously, they're very in
56:06
right now. So anyhow, with all of that
56:09
though, I think it's just interesting because it changes
56:13
your perspective and it really gives you such a greater view of
56:17
like what God has designed and the beauty of that.
56:20
And I know the world every day is trying to distort that.
56:23
And they can think we're still so old fashioned because we hold
56:25
to the Bible as the word of God. And like these traditional
56:28
values that we do as Christians, they can still think that we're
56:32
crazy and that's fine because we're promised that they
56:36
probably would think they were crazy, right?
56:38
Like the world will hate us. But I think that realizing like
56:42
it, we want to show this beauty of marriage and coming together
56:45
and in the balances of that and the joys of it as we are
56:50
designed to be as Christians, serving God, loving God
56:54
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your order. I love I love that the the fact
57:46
that our faith, like the faith of what Jesus actually teaches.
57:51
There is the ability to take it like a super like you say, left
57:54
wing, like destroyed man and woman as separate genders or you
57:58
know, life is a threat and pregnancy abort your pregnancy.
58:01
I mean, there's people, unfortunately profess the name
58:03
of Jesus who have these extreme views and false views on sex and
58:07
on marriage and on life. And then you have a
58:10
fundamentalist view, the other extreme.
58:12
And I think you grew up with a lot of that, what you're
58:15
experiencing and you described with Bill Gothard and it's a
58:18
different form of objectification, but it's the
58:21
same, I think root misunderstanding the human
58:23
person and and what it means to be a woman, what it means to be
58:26
a man. But it's just, it is true how
58:28
beautiful it is when you meet and also you, it could be a big
58:31
family. You meet a beautiful family
58:33
where you see the spouses are loving and serving each other.
58:37
They're in it together. Obviously there's a level of
58:40
role when you're a mother of young children, you know, like
58:42
you, you alone can carry the baby.
58:44
We alone can can nurture, but that there's a shared team
58:48
spirit with that for sure. And that there is sacrifice
58:52
inside the marriage mutually for each other.
58:55
And I just think that view is what the world needs.
58:58
And when people encounter it, it's so refreshing for them to
59:01
get to, to experience it and see it actually being lived out.
59:05
For sure, yeah. So what does your, you know,
59:08
once you've kind of had your realization?
59:11
I mean, you're, you're married now.
59:12
You're, you wrote this book. When you were writing the book,
59:16
was it, Did you wrestle with what to share and what not to
59:19
share? Was there times where like this
59:21
is too personal? Yeah, I think I went back and
59:24
forth a lot. I really wanted to be sensitive
59:27
and careful with my words and not share anything that would be
59:31
hurtful to anyone. And so that was something that I
59:35
prayed through. I talked to Jeremy about, talked
59:37
to very close friends and just kind of like bounce things off
59:40
of people trying to figure out, OK, how much should I share?
59:43
Is this a helpful piece of, you know, something I should share
59:47
or should I keep that private? And so just keeping it focused
59:51
on the theology and the issues that were there, that was my
59:55
heart. And I wanted to be able to help
59:57
people who are still stuck in these teachings to be able to
1:00:00
come to find freedom in Christ themselves, because I feel like
1:00:04
that was my heart. It's not a tell all.
1:00:06
It's not like this is crazy. Look at what I grew up in and I
1:00:09
resent it all. Like it's not that I see how so
1:00:13
many well meaning even like. Awesome Christians got wrapped
1:00:18
up in this teaching because it promised the guarantee for
1:00:21
success. It's what you want for your
1:00:23
kids. It's what you want them to
1:00:25
thrive. You want them to love Jesus and
1:00:27
you want them to like be well-rounded citizens.
1:00:30
And so I think that's what Bill Gother had promised.
1:00:32
And it makes sense. I look at it and I say, OK,
1:00:35
like, I get how you can believe that.
1:00:37
I'm not saying you're crazy for believing it, but at the same
1:00:41
time it is error and it needs to be exposed as that.
1:00:45
And that was something that took me years to get to the place
1:00:48
where I felt like I wasn't people pleasing too much to like
1:00:52
be quiet. Like I, I can be a people
1:00:54
pleaser by nature. And so I just want to be quiet.
1:00:57
I want to make everybody happy. And for so many years, that's
1:01:01
kind of how I lived my life. But then once I realized the
1:01:03
negative effects and the people that were be harmed by it and
1:01:07
the friends who were totally running away from everything
1:01:11
that was in the Bible because they were harmed by this false
1:01:14
teaching, it needed to be exposed.
1:01:18
And so that's what drove me was not comfort.
1:01:20
It was not an easy thing to do, but I knew it was necessary.
1:01:26
And God gave me the strength and help to like be able to speak
1:01:29
out and write this book. And not everybody was pleased
1:01:32
with it, but I was thankful that for the most part, the reception
1:01:37
was good and it was surprising. And the Lord has been using it
1:01:42
and I'm very grateful for that. But it's, I think any time that
1:01:46
we have that like conflict within us of should I do this or
1:01:50
should I wait? Like, you know, just taking it
1:01:52
before the Lord and trusting in him and realizing, like, OK, if
1:01:55
people hate me because I write this book, then I want to just
1:01:59
do what's right before God. And I was convicted that the
1:02:03
right thing to do was to write this book.
1:02:05
I think you did a great job of balancing honor.
1:02:08
I think there is a lot of honor and respect in your book for the
1:02:10
good things because there are so many good things obviously about
1:02:13
what your parents did and how they loved you guys.
1:02:16
But then sharing the hard things, I think that takes a lot
1:02:18
of balance to be able to do that.
1:02:20
What have been some of the responses you've gotten?
1:02:22
Have there been other people who have had their own journey and
1:02:26
they related to you or what has that been like?
1:02:28
Yeah, I've been so, so grateful to hear all responses that
1:02:31
people have sent, even from friends who I wouldn't have
1:02:36
expected to reach out to me saying that they really
1:02:39
appreciated the book. Some of them still in this that
1:02:42
setting with Bill Gothard and others who have been outside of
1:02:46
it for years and have wrestled with how to disentangle truth
1:02:51
from error. And it's been so encouraging
1:02:55
overall. Like, that's what drives you.
1:02:57
That's what keeps you going, is just realizing like, OK, even if
1:03:00
it helps one person, it's worth it.
1:03:02
And I've had so many friends and even people outside that I've
1:03:05
never met who have been had the similar story.
1:03:10
And it's God's used it to just help them as well to come out of
1:03:15
those teachings. So yeah, I'm just really
1:03:17
thankful for even the difficulties that we go through
1:03:21
and all of that fear that you experienced, you know, it's
1:03:23
like, well, God is using it now on the other side to redeem that
1:03:27
for good. I think so much, I think even in
1:03:29
my own marriage, there's there's this closeness and intimacy
1:03:33
where how you relate to your spouse, it's connected to how
1:03:36
you relate to God. Because you know, the most
1:03:39
intimate relationship we have is with God and then the most
1:03:42
intimate relationship we have, you know, on this earth and in
1:03:44
one sense is with our spouse. You mentioned just this
1:03:47
beautiful relationship that you have with your husband where you
1:03:50
just really have this trust and he's taught you, it sounds like
1:03:54
a deeper, more beautiful intimacy that maybe you're, you
1:03:57
know, stripping away some of that fundamentalism that you
1:03:59
grew up with. Do you see that in your
1:04:01
relationship with God? What has that been like?
1:04:03
For sure, most definitely. I think, yeah, like you said,
1:04:07
God's used Jeremy in so many ways just to like be there as
1:04:10
such a rock for me. And also like he is pointing me
1:04:13
back to God and so many hard seasons.
1:04:17
And it's amazing because really whenever your view of God is 1
1:04:21
is like a taskmaster, he's out to get you.
1:04:23
He's getting out, waiting to spite his children at any turn.
1:04:27
That's scary. It's very terrifying because
1:04:29
you're just thinking, I don't know what's expected of me.
1:04:32
What is God expected me like? And you're trying to figure it
1:04:35
out all the time on your own instead of like realizing that
1:04:39
God is a kind and loving Savior. We will sin every day.
1:04:43
There is so much then that is still existing because we're in
1:04:47
a fallen, broken world where sinners, we've been redeemed,
1:04:50
but that does not mean that we're exempt from sinning.
1:04:52
And so I think that that's something that has really been
1:04:56
helpful for me to the view is like my relationship with God is
1:04:59
not dependent upon the amount of good that I'm doing right now.
1:05:04
I want to honor him, but I'm not going to do that perfectly.
1:05:07
But his grace is going to sustain me and his forgiveness
1:05:11
covers my sin. And that's something that it was
1:05:14
hard for me to understand for so long.
1:05:17
And Jeremy was so, so good to remind me of that.
1:05:19
So I feel like today my relationship with God is in such
1:05:23
a better place than it ever was because I see him in a different
1:05:27
light and more like I said, the grace filled Christian life as
1:05:31
opposed to the fear based rule based life.
1:05:36
I love the I think it's proverb, but the just man falls 7 times,
1:05:40
but that you know, he gets up again, he rises again and
1:05:43
there's a St. that I love St. Jose Maria Escriva, who says the
1:05:46
Saint isn't made by you know how, how much they're perfect,
1:05:49
but that when they fall, they get up again and they choose to
1:05:52
trust. They choose to say sorry.
1:05:53
They choose to trust again and seek after God again.
1:05:56
Because that's, that's the whole life right of a Christian is
1:06:00
getting up again and trying better.
1:06:02
And, and because of love, because it's a love story with
1:06:04
God and, and Jesus Christ. He's our, he's our first love.
1:06:08
You've been very open about your pro-life stance.
1:06:10
And I know sometimes in the industry, in the entertainment
1:06:12
world, that can be really difficult.
1:06:15
I want to change that. Unfortunately, it's difficult.
1:06:17
What informs your pro-life stance?
1:06:19
Yeah, I think just realizing what God says about life and the
1:06:24
value of human life from conception being important.
1:06:27
I think that as a Christian, I have no other way that I could
1:06:32
get around that. I know some Christians try to,
1:06:34
but I think that life matters to God and so it matters to me.
1:06:40
And so just seeing these precious babies and even inside
1:06:44
the womb as something that I want to speak up for because I
1:06:48
mean, my youngest sister Josie was born at 25 weeks gestation.
1:06:53
And seeing her at 1 LB six oz, you can look at her and say, OK,
1:06:58
like, how in the world is she going to survive?
1:07:01
Like her skin was like almost see through.
1:07:04
And it was incredible seeing that though, because even for
1:07:07
the pro-life, 'cause you look at it and say wow, like she is so
1:07:11
beautifully designed. She's not full term, but even
1:07:15
the tiniest baby matters and that life should not be taken.
1:07:18
They should be able to have a voice even inside the womb.
1:07:21
Amen. What's what is life going to be
1:07:24
like for you in the future? What are you guys?
1:07:26
Any of your podcasts? You have your babies?
1:07:29
What? What does life look?
1:07:30
What does life look like in the future for the boilers?
1:07:32
Yeah, it's been an exciting season, A lot of change.
1:07:36
We just moved to a new house. It was only 10 minutes away, but
1:07:39
it's a project. So we're in the middle of
1:07:40
remodels, kitchen remodels. Our kids are growing felicities
1:07:46
in Kinder right now. And then it's just like there's
1:07:50
so many changes that are happening around.
1:07:53
There are more projects in the works that I'm working on now,
1:07:56
and we'll probably announce that soon.
1:07:59
But it's just exciting. Like there are so many, so many
1:08:02
things that God's doing in our lives, even together.
1:08:05
Like it's just such a fun season.
1:08:07
I love being in the stage with our kids, six and three.
1:08:10
There are so much fun, so much energy, and it's just such a
1:08:14
gift from God. Thanks so much for joining the
1:08:16
podcast. Enjoy.
1:08:17
This has been a joy. Thanks for having me.
1:08:19
A huge thank you to our partner. EWTNEWTN is the world's leading
1:08:25
Catholic network, reaching millions with the truth about
1:08:28
the faith, entertainment and news.
1:08:30
Check them out at ewtn.com.