Latest / I Used To Be Crap At Sales / Why 94% of Salespeople Never Become Elite, And How To Fix |EP21| Will Aitken

Transcript

Why 94% of Salespeople Never Become Elite, And How To Fix |EP21| Will Aitken · I Used To Be Crap At Sales

• 0:00
  Mark Ackers: Listen. It's hard
• 0:00
  work making a podcast. I want
• 0:02
  to know that it's worthwhile.
• 0:03
  Like, subscribe, share, show
• 0:05
  me that you enjoy it, and
• 0:06
  we'll keep making them. If
• 0:08
  not, I've got two orange
• 0:09
  chairs for sale. What's coming
• 0:11
  up in today's episode? My
• 0:12
  Will Aitken: wife asked me,
• 0:13
  Are you sure sales is right
• 0:14
  for you? I felt like I was
• 0:15
  failing, and I felt like it
• 0:16
  wasn't doing good, and I felt
• 0:17
  like I couldn't get any
• 0:18
  better.
• 0:19
  Mark Ackers: Today's guest has
• 0:20
  made millions laugh while
• 0:21
  teaching people how to sell.
• 0:23
  Gone viral on Tiktok. He's co
• 0:25
  founded sales feed and built a
• 0:28
  LinkedIn following of over
• 0:29
  65,000 people. Behind the
• 0:32
  skits is someone who nearly
• 0:34
  gave up on sales completely.
• 0:36
  My guest is will akin did you
• 0:38
  used to be crap at sales?
• 0:39
  Will Aitken: Yes, I was crap
• 0:40
  at sales for a very long time,
• 0:42
  far longer than I should have
• 0:43
  been during the interview
• 0:44
  process, I realised I was
• 0:45
  horribly under qualified and
• 0:46
  not what they were looking
• 0:47
  for. I tried to keep the focus
• 0:48
  off me as much as possible. I
• 0:49
  basically just recited what I
• 0:50
  just learned, which wasn't
• 0:52
  necessarily the truth. The
• 0:52
  whole job of sales is to make
• 0:54
  the company money, and if
• 0:55
  you're not doing that, then
• 0:56
  you are losing the money
• 0:57
  Mark Ackers: 100% good
• 0:58
  salesperson shouldn't cost
• 0:59
  anything.
• 0:59
  Will Aitken: I blamed
• 0:59
  everything. And I thought, Oh,
• 1:00
  it's my territory. It's my
• 1:02
  manager. Ironically, after all
• 1:03
  this, after dropping the ego,
• 1:04
  my ego made me leave that
• 1:06
  company. I knew they were they
• 1:07
  had the senior candidate
• 1:08
  title, but they were being
• 1:09
  paid much more aggressive,
• 1:10
  both accelerators and a base
• 1:11
  salary, and that made me
• 1:13
  bitter and hurt. So I went to
• 1:15
  my manager and said, Give me
• 1:16
  the promotion. I've earned it.
• 1:17
  And he didn't. How
• 1:18
  Mark Ackers: have you become
• 1:19
  so self aware? Because so many
• 1:20
  people aren't 2023. Is
• 1:22
  Will Aitken: probably the
• 1:23
  worst year of my entire life,
• 1:24
  because I didn't believe in
• 1:25
  what I was doing. I wasn't
• 1:26
  learning anymore need for
• 1:27
  approval validation. I wanted
• 1:29
  to be the best. That wasn't
• 1:30
  about being successful, in my
• 1:32
  mind at the time, it was about
• 1:33
  trying to look the most
• 1:34
  successful. If someone
• 1:35
  Mark Ackers: listens to this
• 1:36
  has realised that they've got
• 1:37
  a need for approval or even a
• 1:39
  need to be loved. What's
• 1:40
  something they can do to start
• 1:41
  to overcome that. Think about
• 1:42
  what you do with
• 1:50
  Hello and welcome to a new
• 1:52
  episode of The I used to be
• 1:53
  crap at sales Podcast. I'm
• 1:54
  Mark Akers, your host, the co
• 1:56
  founder and Head of Sales here
• 1:57
  at my sales coach today's
• 1:59
  guest, born in Milton Keynes,
• 2:01
  armed with what he calls a
• 2:02
  pointless degree. He's been a
• 2:04
  pub bartender, a recruiter, a
• 2:07
  SaaS AE, a content creator,
• 2:09
  and now he runs his own sales
• 2:11
  business. In their bio, they
• 2:13
  say they're a salesperson, a
• 2:14
  sales trainer, a keynote
• 2:16
  speaker, an author and a piss
• 2:19
  taker, fluent in English,
• 2:20
  memes and sarcasm. They're the
• 2:23
  chief vice directing,
• 2:24
  president of managing things.
• 2:27
  If you've not guessed it, by
• 2:28
  now, I'm really excited for
• 2:29
  this episode. My guest is will
• 2:31
  Aitken will? Hello and welcome
• 2:33
  to the
• 2:33
  Will Aitken: podcast. Mark.
• 2:34
  What an intro mate. Very happy
• 2:36
  to be here. Thank you for
• 2:37
  inviting me on. It's
• 2:38
  Mark Ackers: good to have you.
• 2:38
  Will we start the podcast in
• 2:40
  the same way every time, which
• 2:42
  is a yes, no question, did you
• 2:44
  used to be crap at sales?
• 2:45
  Will Aitken: I wouldn't have
• 2:45
  agreed to come on a podcast
• 2:46
  called I used to be crap at
• 2:47
  sales if that wasn't the case.
• 2:49
  Yes, I was crap at sales for a
• 2:50
  very long time, far longer
• 2:52
  than I should
• 2:52
  Mark Ackers: have been. When
• 2:53
  you think about being crap at
• 2:54
  sales. Is there a particular
• 2:56
  moment that springs to mind
• 2:58
  when you really realise that
• 3:00
  to be true?
• 3:00
  Will Aitken: Yeah, probably,
• 3:02
  when my wife asked me, Are you
• 3:04
  sure sales is right for you?
• 3:06
  You know, like the person who
• 3:07
  knows me the most is you sure
• 3:09
  you want to be in sales? You
• 3:10
  know, because I was in a place
• 3:11
  where I was I felt like I was
• 3:13
  failing, and I felt like it
• 3:14
  wasn't doing good, and I felt
• 3:15
  like I couldn't get any
• 3:16
  better. And she asked me that
• 3:17
  question. I was like, damn,
• 3:19
  but do what am I? Should I? I
• 3:20
  I don't know,
• 3:21
  Mark Ackers: but I figured
• 3:22
  out. So take me to that
• 3:23
  moment. Where were you when
• 3:24
  she asked you that question?
• 3:25
  I'd
• 3:26
  Will Aitken: been selling
• 3:28
  media sponsors, advertising,
• 3:30
  that type of thing, for a
• 3:31
  couple of years, and the
• 3:33
  journey to that point had been
• 3:34
  a lot of highs and a lot of
• 3:36
  lows as well. Really
• 3:37
  inconsistent, right? So we're,
• 3:39
  you know, going from feast to
• 3:40
  famine each month, no
• 3:41
  consistency whatsoever. And
• 3:42
  then when my son was born, I
• 3:44
  took some time off, as you
• 3:45
  should, as a father to help
• 3:47
  out. It's a really tough time,
• 3:48
  especially when it's your
• 3:49
  first kid, you don't know what
• 3:50
  the heck you're doing. And I
• 3:51
  came back and I just had
• 3:52
  nothing, no pipeline. And
• 3:54
  following that, there was just
• 3:55
  a few months, just in a row,
• 3:56
  just zeros or very low numbers
• 3:59
  on the leaderboard. And I was
• 4:00
  like, I don't know how to make
• 4:02
  this work. And that was, I was
• 4:03
  having a lot of self doubt,
• 4:04
  right? I'm like, Okay, well, I
• 4:06
  obviously don't know what I'm
• 4:07
  doing. I've been lucky in the
• 4:08
  past. You know, that's kind of
• 4:10
  how I felt about my past
• 4:11
  performance, and those, those
• 4:12
  feast I mentioned the high
• 4:13
  months. So when we had that
• 4:15
  chat, that was, that was where
• 4:16
  I was at
• 4:16
  Mark Ackers: when she asked
• 4:17
  you, What did you say? Like,
• 4:18
  how taken back were you by
• 4:19
  that question?
• 4:20
  Will Aitken: Obviously, it's
• 4:21
  within the context of that
• 4:22
  conversation, and I was
• 4:24
  complaining about, you know,
• 4:25
  things not going well, and
• 4:26
  being nervous about making
• 4:28
  enough money to support a new
• 4:30
  family as well, right? I'd ask
• 4:32
  myself that question, to be
• 4:33
  honest, I hadn't probably said
• 4:34
  out loud, like, you know, you
• 4:35
  when you when you have that
• 4:37
  self doubt, you're like, maybe
• 4:38
  I shouldn't do this. Maybe
• 4:39
  it's just go and be something
• 4:40
  else. I also thought, what
• 4:41
  else am I supposed to do? I
• 4:42
  haven't got any skills. I
• 4:43
  haven't really got any
• 4:44
  passionate desires or interest
• 4:45
  to do anything else. There was
• 4:47
  nothing really that that was
• 4:48
  calling to me, or that a lot
• 4:49
  of people go I want to be
• 4:50
  this, and then end up finding
• 4:51
  that they can't make that and
• 4:53
  then end up in sales box, and
• 4:54
  I just didn't have anything.
• 4:55
  So I just got into sales
• 4:56
  because I could, right? I
• 4:57
  thought to myself, well, I
• 4:58
  don't have anything else. I
• 4:59
  kind of have. Be good at this,
• 5:00
  because otherwise I won't.
• 5:01
  I'll be starting again. And as
• 5:03
  I said, I was young family, so
• 5:04
  I thought starting all over
• 5:05
  again in my career wasn't
• 5:06
  really an option that point as
• 5:08
  well.
• 5:08
  Mark Ackers: It's really
• 5:08
  interesting. I imagine so many
• 5:10
  people listen to this would
• 5:11
  have had that moment where
• 5:12
  they think, what else am I
• 5:14
  meant to do? It's not going
• 5:15
  well, but what else am I meant
• 5:17
  to do? I really feel the
• 5:18
  similarities. I felt that I
• 5:20
  remember there was a point
• 5:21
  where I was in sales. I fell
• 5:23
  into it. Well, fell into it.
• 5:24
  It's probably not quite right.
• 5:25
  I went into it because I
• 5:26
  wanted to earn more money.
• 5:27
  Sounds like you're saying the
• 5:28
  same wasn't going so well.
• 5:30
  What am I meant to do? I
• 5:31
  remember that exact thought, I
• 5:32
  wish I just had a skill. And I
• 5:34
  was thinking, Could I be an
• 5:35
  electrician? Could I be a
• 5:37
  plumber? Could I be a
• 5:38
  carpenter? I wished I had a
• 5:39
  skill. And it feels like at
• 5:41
  that point, though, you didn't
• 5:42
  realise you had a skill,
• 5:43
  because you've got one, and
• 5:44
  you've got many, actually, and
• 5:46
  but you probably didn't
• 5:47
  realise at the time that sales
• 5:50
  is a skill, and it feels like
• 5:51
  you've got on that journey to
• 5:52
  realising not only is it a
• 5:54
  skill, it's a fundamental
• 5:56
  skill that if you can and
• 5:58
  look, Master's a very strong
• 5:59
  word, but if you can get good
• 6:00
  at it, actually, there's a lot
• 6:02
  you can achieve. And it feels
• 6:03
  like you've had to go on that
• 6:04
  journey to a place where you
• 6:06
  are today, which is really
• 6:07
  what we want to get to in the
• 6:08
  podcast, right? That journey
• 6:10
  of how you got into sales,
• 6:12
  realising it was crap to where
• 6:14
  you are today, because so many
• 6:15
  people follow your content,
• 6:17
  love your content. I'm one of
• 6:18
  those people, and so many
• 6:19
  people look up to you, and
• 6:21
  they think, Ah, it's easy for
• 6:22
  this guy. And I know, you
• 6:23
  know, that's just not true.
• 6:24
  You've gotten a journey, and
• 6:25
  that's we're going to share
• 6:26
  today. Let's take it right
• 6:27
  back when you were growing up,
• 6:28
  you were the odd child. What
• 6:29
  do you mean by that? A
• 6:30
  Will Aitken: lot of people in
• 6:31
  sales often are add a HD, that
• 6:34
  type of thing sometimes just
• 6:36
  correlates with ending up in
• 6:37
  sales in the first place. I
• 6:38
  find I was never the worst at
• 6:39
  school, like in terms of
• 6:40
  academics, but I was
• 6:41
  definitely the most in trouble
• 6:43
  at the time, you know, acting
• 6:44
  out, probably looking for some
• 6:45
  kind of attention, if I'm
• 6:47
  honest, but then also being
• 6:49
  the loudest and doing things
• 6:51
  somewhat differently to
• 6:52
  everyone else. I was known by
• 6:53
  a lot of people, not because I
• 6:55
  was their friend, but just
• 6:56
  because I got noticed for the
• 6:57
  right things and the wrong
• 6:58
  things, most of the wrong
• 6:59
  things, getting in trouble.
• 7:00
  Nothing mean or nasty, just
• 7:03
  normally, just being very
• 7:04
  mischievous, not following the
• 7:05
  Mark Ackers: rules. Obviously,
• 7:06
  you talk about not being
• 7:07
  academic. You went to
• 7:09
  university. You call it a
• 7:10
  pointless degree, which is not
• 7:12
  saying I'm comfortable with
• 7:13
  because I think with degrees,
• 7:16
  really, it doesn't matter what
• 7:17
  it's in. It's showing that you
• 7:19
  can self study, learn, hold
• 7:21
  yourself accountable, show up.
• 7:23
  You can take a project, you
• 7:24
  can break it down, you can you
• 7:25
  can provide information in a
• 7:27
  way. It's digestible like
• 7:28
  that. When I look at degrees,
• 7:30
  that's what I'm looking for,
• 7:32
  and I put far more weight on
• 7:33
  what Mark did they get versus
• 7:35
  what was it in? But you call
• 7:37
  it pointless. What made you
• 7:38
  choose that and has it helped
• 7:40
  you at all? Do
• 7:40
  Will Aitken: you really want
• 7:41
  to know? Absolutely, I wanted
• 7:43
  to be an engineer when I was,
• 7:44
  like, high school age.
• 7:45
  Apologies, I've been in
• 7:46
  America for so long I can't
• 7:47
  remember sick form. I wanted
• 7:48
  to be an engineer. I wanted to
• 7:50
  be I had a private pilot's
• 7:51
  licence that I got when I was
• 7:52
  16, so I was really into
• 7:54
  planes. I want to go and do
• 7:55
  aerospace engineering at
• 7:56
  Liverpool, and my backup was,
• 7:57
  like, Swansea or something
• 7:58
  like that. But the issue was I
• 8:00
  really struggled with math and
• 8:03
  physics, and I didn't actually
• 8:04
  like them that much. And I
• 8:05
  don't think I quite realised
• 8:07
  it's not about aeroplanes.
• 8:08
  It's about like science and
• 8:09
  things that I probably didn't
• 8:10
  enjoy as much I wanted to do,
• 8:11
  but I had it in my mind. You
• 8:12
  pick your A Levels sometimes,
• 8:14
  and you kind of feel a bit
• 8:16
  stuck in that path at that
• 8:17
  point, even if you know you're
• 8:18
  not enjoying it or doing well
• 8:19
  and you're too young to have
• 8:21
  the the self awareness to say,
• 8:23
  maybe this isn't what I
• 8:24
  actually want to do. I just
• 8:25
  said it because it sounded
• 8:27
  cool, and I like planes, you
• 8:28
  know. So then when my a level
• 8:29
  results came back, and I did
• 8:30
  have to get some extra
• 8:31
  studying and tutoring to even
• 8:34
  get to what I got to, but they
• 8:35
  were, they're pretty bad
• 8:36
  grades. So naturally, the bull
• 8:37
  didn't want me to on that
• 8:38
  aerospace engineering course.
• 8:40
  Swansea gave me an option, a
• 8:42
  second option, of doing a
• 8:44
  course I wasn't as interested
• 8:45
  in. It was called something
• 8:45
  like aircraft maintenance
• 8:47
  engineering or something like
• 8:48
  that. But it was kind of like
• 8:49
  it was a trade. You know, it
• 8:49
  was more of a trade. It was
• 8:51
  like a mix between a degree in
• 8:52
  a trade school. And I said,
• 8:53
  Well, maybe I don't want to
• 8:54
  either of those things, but I
• 8:55
  knew I wanted to go to
• 8:56
  university. I knew I wanted
• 8:57
  the independence, and I had a
• 8:58
  bit of pressure for my parents
• 8:59
  to do that as well. All my
• 9:00
  sisters, my old, two old
• 9:01
  sisters, had also gone to
• 9:02
  university. And even my dad
• 9:04
  said, what you kind of almost
• 9:05
  said, it's about not just
• 9:06
  going to university and
• 9:07
  learning something that you're
• 9:08
  going to plan to use about
• 9:09
  being independent. It's about
• 9:10
  going out there and learning
• 9:11
  skills of just learning and
• 9:13
  getting better. So then what I
• 9:14
  decided, I went through clear
• 9:15
  I decided to say, note
• 9:16
  Swansea's offer of this second
• 9:18
  course I wasn't interested in.
• 9:20
  And I went on Google, and I
• 9:21
  typed in which university,
• 9:23
  because I was 17 years old,
• 9:25
  has the best, I shouldn't say
• 9:26
  best, the highest girl to boy
• 9:28
  ratio. Yeah, 817, year old
• 9:31
  boys only have really one
• 9:32
  thing on their mind. And I was
• 9:34
  thinking, oh, yeah, university
• 9:35
  girls. And then I went on a
• 9:38
  step further, which course at
• 9:40
  the University of the most
• 9:41
  girls has the most girls on
• 9:42
  it, and that was events
• 9:43
  management, because a lot of
• 9:45
  people on that course wanted
• 9:46
  to be, you know, conference
• 9:48
  planners or wedding planners.
• 9:49
  That was, like, the thing that
• 9:50
  was standing out to them. So a
• 9:51
  lot of people wanted to do
• 9:53
  that. And I just said, you
• 9:54
  know, it's something and it's
• 9:55
  it by the coast, and it will
• 9:56
  be good fun. So I chose that
• 9:58
  and, and that's how. Ended up
• 10:00
  at
• 10:00
  Mark Ackers: it. I feel like
• 10:01
  such an idiot. I picked, I
• 10:02
  picked my university based on
• 10:04
  what was the furthest away
• 10:05
  from home that had a Premier
• 10:06
  League football team where I
• 10:07
  could get a
• 10:08
  Will Aitken: ticket. I'm glad
• 10:09
  to know that we've made
• 10:10
  decisions based on things that
• 10:11
  probably weren't that
• 10:12
  important. Yeah, no,
• 10:13
  definitely. And how many times
• 10:15
  did you get to go see the
• 10:16
  footy?
• 10:17
  Mark Ackers: Because I
• 10:18
  realised back then, you could
• 10:19
  get away with buying a child
• 10:20
  ticket, and no one checked. So
• 10:22
  I was getting tickets for
• 10:23
  like, five quid, and walking
• 10:24
  up
• 10:25
  Will Aitken: to you because I
• 10:25
  didn't manage to get pull any
• 10:27
  girls, I won't lie. So my plan
• 10:28
  didn't work out quite the way
• 10:29
  it went. I wanted to
• 10:31
  Mark Ackers: Fair enough. So
• 10:32
  okay, so that's really
• 10:33
  interesting. I've got a little
• 10:34
  bit of insight here from you
• 10:36
  in school, in university, and
• 10:39
  from there, it feels like you
• 10:41
  couldn't do what you wanted to
• 10:42
  do. You've got this degree,
• 10:43
  not really wanting to use it.
• 10:45
  And it's it feels like you had
• 10:46
  then a bit of time to
• 10:47
  yourself, where you worked.
• 10:49
  Well, it says on LinkedIn, you
• 10:51
  worked in
• 10:51
  Will Aitken: a pub. I worked
• 10:52
  at that pub while I was at
• 10:53
  university. So after I
• 10:54
  graduated, I was sat there
• 10:56
  thinking, I get a job. And I
• 10:57
  did get a job. I went and
• 10:58
  worked. I don't know if this
• 11:00
  is still on my LinkedIn,
• 11:01
  because it was a short stint.
• 11:03
  But I worked for Connells, the
• 11:04
  estate agent, a call centre of
• 11:08
  people who basically would
• 11:10
  call anyone else who had their
• 11:11
  home listed with, I know,
• 11:13
  tailors or wimpies or whoever
• 11:14
  it may be, and try and get
• 11:15
  them to switch estate agents.
• 11:16
  So for three months, I was
• 11:18
  just banging the phones on
• 11:19
  that. I enjoyed it, and I was
• 11:20
  okay at it as well, but it
• 11:22
  was, it's, you know, that
• 11:22
  classic, very high volume
• 11:25
  cold, cooling environment. I
• 11:26
  think that's good for people
• 11:27
  as well, in an office in lane
• 11:29
  buzzard. And then while I was
• 11:30
  doing that, I was like, I'm
• 11:31
  still young. I still want to
• 11:32
  travel. So I went and then did
• 11:35
  a ski season in France where I
• 11:37
  managed a bar in a hotel and
• 11:39
  skied and did the class thing
• 11:40
  there. And then I came back
• 11:41
  from that the bar that I was
• 11:42
  managing. That hotel, like
• 11:44
  most, like shallow people,
• 11:45
  it's kind of weird. I had a
• 11:46
  quota as the bar, so I had to
• 11:47
  try and get as many people to
• 11:49
  buy from that bar as possible
• 11:50
  every single week. So I'd be
• 11:51
  throwing pub quizzes, just
• 11:52
  doing anything to get people
• 11:53
  to go from dinner, where they
• 11:54
  got free wine, to come and
• 11:55
  spend money in the bar. And I
• 11:57
  was actually really good at
• 11:58
  that as well. Pub quizzes
• 11:59
  would always go down. Well, it
• 12:00
  was a chance for me to get to
• 12:01
  know everyone in the room,
• 12:02
  because every room, because
• 12:03
  every week we'd have a new
• 12:04
  round of guests staying in the
• 12:05
  hotel. And after that, they
• 12:06
  paid out a big bonus, because
• 12:07
  I absolutely smashed the bar
• 12:08
  target and and I used that
• 12:10
  money to then go backpacking.
• 12:11
  That's where I went across
• 12:12
  Asia, did all that stuff, and
• 12:14
  landed in Australia, which is
• 12:15
  where I had met my partner and
• 12:18
  got probably my first real big
• 12:19
  boy job, which was when I got
• 12:21
  into recruitment.
• 12:21
  Mark Ackers: Wow. So first of
• 12:23
  all, I'm starting to see where
• 12:25
  some of this event management
• 12:26
  degree did get used.
• 12:27
  Organising pub quizzes is
• 12:29
  definitely an event. Play it
• 12:30
  down, if you like. But what,
• 12:32
  what I think you're you are
• 12:34
  doing, though, is you're
• 12:35
  learning the fundamental
• 12:37
  skills of sales when it comes
• 12:39
  to communication with
• 12:40
  different types of people.
• 12:41
  You'd have met different
• 12:42
  people at university,
• 12:43
  different people in the pub,
• 12:45
  different people at the ski
• 12:46
  lawn, learn ski lodge, then
• 12:47
  you've gone travelling, and
• 12:49
  one of the key things that
• 12:50
  sales people can do is adapt
• 12:52
  to whoever they're speaking i
• 12:54
  In your case, whoever you're
• 12:55
  serving. And you'd have been
• 12:56
  learning without even
• 12:57
  realising it, how you need to
• 12:59
  adjust the way in which you
• 13:01
  communicate with different
• 13:02
  people, which is such a
• 13:03
  difficult thing to do. And
• 13:05
  you've been at a call centre
• 13:06
  in a pub as a university,
• 13:08
  you've been travelling, so
• 13:09
  you're learning the
• 13:10
  fundamentals here. That's
• 13:12
  going to set you up for a
• 13:13
  strong career. You're right. I
• 13:14
  saw you went travelling, went
• 13:16
  to Sydney, and obviously, for
• 13:18
  reasons, everybody understands
• 13:20
  LinkedIn is not 100 accurate.
• 13:22
  I've got your first job as
• 13:24
  search it local in Sydney. You
• 13:26
  mentioned advertising earlier.
• 13:28
  You only left two months. I
• 13:30
  didn't know that was part of
• 13:31
  like work placement on there,
• 13:33
  Will Aitken: because from
• 13:34
  there, it's all honest. I
• 13:36
  think the Connors thing wasn't
• 13:37
  really worth putting on there,
• 13:38
  because then it would have
• 13:40
  been a break as well. But the
• 13:41
  Yeah, I got a call centre. And
• 13:42
  that was actually where I did,
• 13:44
  I did meet my my wife. She was
• 13:45
  sat next to me. And that was
• 13:47
  if, if I made Connells sound
• 13:49
  like a bit of a boil over
• 13:50
  environment, that was insane,
• 13:52
  like, at least Connells had a
• 13:53
  click to dial, you know, this
• 13:54
  was like, tapping on the
• 13:55
  phone, yellow pages, you know,
• 13:57
  this was in, like, 2015 2016,
• 14:00
  yeah, and I was just tapping
• 14:01
  away, and yeah, the cold hard
• 14:03
  target was 300 and the
• 14:05
  service, we didn't realise it
• 14:07
  at first, because they did a
• 14:08
  very good job making sure no
• 14:09
  one knew this, like it was
• 14:10
  helping people set up a free
• 14:12
  page that they could do for
• 14:13
  themselves on Google, and then
• 14:14
  charging them subscription
• 14:15
  price for it. So the product
• 14:16
  was kind of scammy as well. So
• 14:19
  you just had to just make as
• 14:20
  many dollars until you get
• 14:21
  someone who was willing to
• 14:22
  stay on the phone with you,
• 14:23
  and then they would be like,
• 14:24
  stood behind you, like, don't
• 14:25
  let them go. Don't let them
• 14:26
  go. Don't let them hang up.
• 14:27
  Because if they hung up,
• 14:28
  they'd go online and they
• 14:29
  would Google the company see
• 14:30
  all these negative reviews. So
• 14:32
  you can do this stuff for
• 14:33
  free. You can do it yourself.
• 14:34
  We can get someone pay someone
• 14:35
  like on Fiverr to do it for
• 14:36
  you, and they would never, we
• 14:37
  would never be able to get
• 14:38
  them. So it was either like,
• 14:39
  close them on that first call,
• 14:40
  or you would never talk to
• 14:41
  them again. And that was
• 14:42
  really high pressure. And I
• 14:44
  remember I was pretty good at
• 14:46
  that, but also, like those
• 14:47
  kind of I don't want to call a
• 14:48
  scam, because they did
• 14:49
  actually provide a service of
• 14:50
  sorts, but like that naturally
• 14:51
  attracts some very intense
• 14:53
  people who were okay of all
• 14:54
  that, and the environment was
• 14:56
  just very toxic sales
• 14:57
  environment, right? So one day
• 14:59
  a. I was sat next to my wife,
• 15:01
  and I said, you want to go get
• 15:02
  some she wasn't even, I wasn't
• 15:03
  even date her. At that point,
• 15:04
  I went. I was like to go grab
• 15:05
  some lunch. And she said,
• 15:07
  Sure, I don't think I love
• 15:08
  working here. She I'd made a
• 15:10
  few sales, she'd made none.
• 15:11
  And then I was like, Hey,
• 15:13
  would you like to go have
• 15:14
  dinner? And then we actually
• 15:15
  made it start a real
• 15:16
  relationship. But once we left
• 15:17
  that, I was like, Okay, now I
• 15:18
  need a real job, because I
• 15:19
  don't want to do that. And we
• 15:20
  left on the same day. We just
• 15:21
  quit. And we just quit, and we
• 15:22
  actually moved in together
• 15:24
  very soon after that, very
• 15:24
  fast. The reason I even
• 15:25
  started working at Connells in
• 15:27
  the first place, the reason I
• 15:28
  got a sales job the moment in
• 15:29
  Australia, was because
• 15:30
  everyone always said, you'd be
• 15:31
  great at sales. Will you'd be
• 15:32
  great at sales and or you'd be
• 15:33
  great, you'd be great at
• 15:34
  recruitment. Because I find
• 15:35
  recruitment, a lot of sellers
• 15:36
  who work in tech don't realise
• 15:38
  this, I don't think, but it's
• 15:39
  very sales adjacent. If you're
• 15:40
  working in an agency, you are
• 15:41
  going to have to cold call and
• 15:43
  fire clients. If you do not
• 15:44
  have a process, you will not
• 15:45
  place candidates. Is very
• 15:46
  quota based as well. So I
• 15:48
  started working as a recruiter
• 15:49
  at that point, and that was
• 15:50
  actually a real job and great
• 15:52
  company. And I had an amazing
• 15:53
  boss there. God, I remember
• 15:54
  him the way he he really
• 15:55
  invested in me and his team.
• 15:56
  Mark Ackers: So yes, I saw
• 15:58
  you. You move from there to
• 16:00
  recruitment. And the line that
• 16:01
  you used was you were reading
• 16:03
  a Reddit article, and it said
• 16:04
  you could make bank moving
• 16:06
  into recruitment, which made
• 16:07
  me laugh. I've not heard that
• 16:08
  phrase before, but obviously
• 16:09
  you can depict what it means.
• 16:11
  But you moved to recruitment,
• 16:13
  and you said you were top
• 16:14
  performer there. How long
• 16:15
  before you become a top
• 16:16
  performer? From joining to
• 16:18
  become a top performer? How
• 16:19
  did that
• 16:19
  Will Aitken: take you? So they
• 16:20
  had a grad scheme, and I don't
• 16:22
  think, I think a lot of people
• 16:23
  don't realise this, but
• 16:24
  sometimes companies will hire
• 16:26
  five people with the not full
• 16:27
  knowledge that three of them
• 16:28
  will not make it. So they
• 16:29
  hired a grad scheme of people
• 16:30
  who were like, had the right
• 16:31
  attributes, have had no
• 16:32
  experience in their field,
• 16:33
  with the idea of training them
• 16:35
  up because they were trying to
• 16:36
  grow as an agency. And how
• 16:37
  firing and finding good
• 16:38
  recruiters is just as tough as
• 16:40
  finding a good salesperson,
• 16:41
  oftentimes a good recruiter
• 16:43
  will be making enough and be
• 16:45
  happy enough that they won't
• 16:46
  want to leave a lot of the
• 16:47
  time. So they thought that was
• 16:48
  a better strategy. And in that
• 16:50
  grad group, it was just like
• 16:52
  nine day between me and the
• 16:53
  other people who joined. I
• 16:54
  just showed up, I guess. But
• 16:55
  also, I think the biggest
• 16:56
  difference actually, was
• 16:58
  probably the fact that I was
• 16:59
  willing to cold call, because
• 17:00
  I just come from what I just
• 17:01
  described, like, it didn't
• 17:02
  like, I could get clients, and
• 17:04
  if I had enough clients, I
• 17:05
  could, it meant more
• 17:06
  placements, basically, you
• 17:07
  know, whereas they were all
• 17:08
  struggling to try and fill
• 17:09
  these jobs that that they'd
• 17:10
  been given, but the ones they
• 17:11
  were being given weren't the
• 17:12
  best jobs, you know. I mean,
• 17:13
  so like, they, they would be
• 17:14
  working with another recruiter
• 17:16
  in the office who'd be like, I
• 17:17
  need you to help me find some
• 17:18
  candidates for this role, but
• 17:19
  I'd be going out and making
• 17:20
  calls to start finding new
• 17:21
  roles where there'd be more
• 17:22
  urgency and there would
• 17:23
  actually be, it'd be a
• 17:24
  placeable position, basically.
• 17:25
  And while I was doing that as
• 17:26
  well, I mean, I was focusing
• 17:27
  on hiring salespeople, a lot
• 17:29
  of them in the SaaS industry
• 17:31
  as well. And that's where I
• 17:32
  started. My first exposure to
• 17:33
  software, which is which
• 17:34
  informed my direction, going
• 17:35
  Mark Ackers: there as well,
• 17:36
  looking to unlock your team's
• 17:37
  full potential. At my sales
• 17:39
  coach, we pair individuals and
• 17:40
  teams with expert coaches for
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  personalised one to one and
• 17:44
  group coaching sessions. Our
• 17:45
  platform makes booking
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  seamless. It tracks progress
• 17:48
  and delivers real results.
• 17:50
  Studies show expert coaching
• 17:51
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• 17:54
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• 17:55
  an individual or a team
• 17:56
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• 17:58
  that sticks and delivers visit
• 17:59
  mysaliscoach.com use the link
• 18:02
  in the bio, and start
• 18:03
  achieving your goals today.
• 18:04
  And it's interesting, because
• 18:06
  you're right. You see
• 18:07
  recruiters get exposed to
• 18:08
  these jobs all the time, and
• 18:10
  they think I could do that
• 18:11
  job. But I suppose, just
• 18:12
  before we get to that move to
• 18:14
  I'm guessing it's hr.com you
• 18:15
  went to next when you're with
• 18:18
  the other grads. I get it.
• 18:20
  You, you've you've made cold
• 18:21
  calls before, you've been in
• 18:23
  boiler rooms, etc. Equally,
• 18:25
  I've seen this happen far too
• 18:26
  many times. You hire someone
• 18:28
  knowing they know how to cold
• 18:29
  call. They've done it before,
• 18:30
  they've been that boiler room,
• 18:32
  but they get in with a group
• 18:33
  of other people that don't do
• 18:34
  it, so they just stop. They
• 18:35
  just follow the norm and the
• 18:37
  pack. And that's really easy
• 18:38
  to do. What made you not
• 18:40
  follow the pack and think I'm
• 18:42
  gonna go outbound here, I'm
• 18:43
  gonna go and win new
• 18:44
  customers. I appreciate it
• 18:46
  might seem obvious now, well,
• 18:47
  make money, makes up, but it's
• 18:49
  really hard to do that. That's
• 18:51
  Will Aitken: a really good
• 18:51
  question, actually, because
• 18:52
  you're right. It would have
• 18:53
  been easy to not do it. I
• 18:54
  think I'm really competitive.
• 18:56
  A lot of I know I said I'm did
• 18:57
  it to make bank, but a lot of
• 18:59
  the things that actually
• 19:00
  fulfil me. Working in sales is
• 19:02
  sometimes just being the best,
• 19:03
  not necessarily the best trait
• 19:05
  to have, because if you're
• 19:06
  constantly comparing yourself
• 19:07
  to someone else or measuring
• 19:08
  your success against other
• 19:10
  people, that's not really a
• 19:11
  route to fulfilment. I don't
• 19:12
  find but I wanted to be the
• 19:14
  best I and I saw that as my
• 19:15
  competitive advantage. Have
• 19:17
  you always felt that way?
• 19:18
  Yeah, I've got. I grew up in a
• 19:19
  family of with two older
• 19:21
  sisters, we're still competing
• 19:22
  today. And even when I started
• 19:23
  making really, really good
• 19:25
  money selling software, I was
• 19:27
  like, I didn't necessarily
• 19:28
  need the money, you know? I
• 19:29
  mean, like, I didn't have a
• 19:30
  plan for it. And even when I
• 19:31
  had it, I didn't know what to
• 19:32
  do with it, it was still, man,
• 19:34
  this feels good. Just feeling
• 19:35
  accomplished and being a top
• 19:37
  performer. That was almost
• 19:38
  like a big, big thing that
• 19:39
  kept me going. It was like,
• 19:41
  that was it. But the opposite
• 19:42
  side of that is that when
• 19:43
  things aren't going well and
• 19:44
  you value that type of thing,
• 19:46
  you can end up in this
• 19:47
  opposite end of the spectrum
• 19:49
  where you feel self doubt
• 19:50
  because you're not doing as
• 19:51
  well against other people, or
• 19:52
  you're you're underperforming,
• 19:54
  and you're not feeling like
• 19:55
  you're a winner, you know? I
• 19:56
  mean,
• 19:56
  Mark Ackers: yeah, attaching
• 19:57
  your self worth to your
• 19:59
  performance. Went to work. I
• 20:00
  think I see a lot of people do
• 20:02
  that, and I've been quite
• 20:04
  vocal that I've struggled with
• 20:05
  that, you know, periods of my
• 20:06
  life where you not had the
• 20:07
  quarter a month that you want,
• 20:09
  and you take it home with you,
• 20:11
  and you've shared before we
• 20:13
  got on a couple of points in
• 20:14
  your career that we're going
• 20:15
  to get to just before we do
• 20:16
  that. As I say, it feels like
• 20:18
  you're an upward trajectory
• 20:19
  here. You've got a new job,
• 20:21
  you're in recruitment, you're
• 20:23
  a top performer. How long did
• 20:24
  that take you, though, to get
• 20:25
  to the point where you knew
• 20:26
  people were tapping your
• 20:27
  shoulder at this recruitment
• 20:28
  company saying, Will you're
• 20:30
  one of the best you could see
• 20:31
  you're one of the best. How
• 20:32
  long did that actually
• 20:33
  Will Aitken: take you when I
• 20:33
  was the last grad left, and I
• 20:36
  was I was making more
• 20:37
  placements than people in
• 20:38
  doing it for years, and here's
• 20:39
  the thing as well. Like, I
• 20:40
  didn't necessarily do it, by
• 20:42
  the way. I was told I had a
• 20:44
  team lead there. So the
• 20:45
  managing director of this firm
• 20:46
  was the guy who sit me down.
• 20:47
  He felt like therapy would do,
• 20:48
  like coaching one on one
• 20:49
  sessions. He would recommend
• 20:51
  books you should go and read.
• 20:52
  It was really helpful stuff.
• 20:53
  But I was at a team lead
• 20:54
  British guy. Every recruiting
• 20:55
  in Australia feels like a
• 20:56
  Brit, you know, just seems to
• 20:57
  be the thing that everyone
• 20:58
  does when they move there, as
• 21:00
  a pom, as the Australians like
• 21:01
  to call us. And he said, Man,
• 21:03
  you never do what I want you
• 21:04
  to do. It's like you feel
• 21:05
  there's more glory in doing it
• 21:06
  your way than just doing it
• 21:08
  the the easy or best or most
• 21:10
  effective way. Like I'm
• 21:11
  building you a bridge, and I'm
• 21:12
  telling you, just walk across
• 21:13
  it and you're going down the
• 21:15
  road, down the stream, jumping
• 21:16
  on a rope swing to swing
• 21:17
  across so you can go wee Look
• 21:18
  at me, and then jumping onto
• 21:19
  the other side. That was the
• 21:20
  analogy using it that stuck me
• 21:22
  for so long. And he was like,
• 21:23
  I'm trying to help you, man,
• 21:24
  and you keep doing things your
• 21:25
  own way, and it works, but you
• 21:27
  could be so much better if you
• 21:29
  had a process, if you listen
• 21:30
  to these things I'm trying to
• 21:31
  help you with. I also felt
• 21:32
  there's a sense of
• 21:33
  responsibility that I think a
• 21:34
  lot of people miss when they
• 21:35
  go and work for a company, and
• 21:37
  it's not something that you
• 21:38
  should prioritise over your
• 21:39
  own career, your own things.
• 21:41
  But I felt, when you're
• 21:42
  getting paid a base salary,
• 21:43
  you know, you're now costing
• 21:44
  that company money, right? And
• 21:46
  it wasn't a huge company, it
• 21:47
  was probably, I think, office
• 21:49
  at the time, of 25 people,
• 21:50
  right? And it was privately
• 21:52
  owned, so I knew, and I knew
• 21:53
  the guy owned it, right? So
• 21:54
  there's a sense of
• 21:55
  responsibility. I felt that I
• 21:56
  had to do make sure that I was
• 21:58
  a profitable person to keep
• 21:59
  around, right? And that was,
• 22:02
  at the start, one of my main
• 22:03
  focuses. So although they
• 22:04
  wanted to focus on hiring for
• 22:05
  tech roles, and that was,
• 22:06
  like, their big focus, I
• 22:07
  remember the first role I
• 22:08
  placed, I just cold called
• 22:09
  this company and said, Hey, I
• 22:10
  saw you hiring a junior
• 22:11
  accountant. I've got someone.
• 22:13
  And then I played and they're
• 22:14
  like, Well, we're a tech
• 22:14
  recruitment agency. Why are
• 22:16
  you placing accountants? Is
• 22:17
  like, because I wanted to make
• 22:18
  a placement, you know. And I
• 22:19
  thought any, any placement, is
• 22:21
  a good placement. Is a good
• 22:21
  placement, and that person
• 22:23
  worked out, didn't, they
• 22:23
  didn't leave, or anything like
• 22:25
  that. And then it became more
• 22:26
  focused on the sales side of
• 22:27
  things, because
• 22:27
  Mark Ackers: that was, that
• 22:28
  was interesting to me. It's
• 22:29
  fascinating, like, in the
• 22:30
  sense of, you've gone out of
• 22:31
  the swim lane to make a
• 22:32
  placement, to have that
• 22:33
  success. The bit that really
• 22:35
  interested me, though, was the
• 22:36
  way in which you were so aware
• 22:38
  of your salary cost the
• 22:39
  business needing to repay
• 22:41
  that. Do you think most sales
• 22:42
  people think
• 22:43
  Will Aitken: like that? I
• 22:43
  haven't asked, I don't know
• 22:44
  content. What do you think I'm
• 22:46
  contemplating me too.
• 22:48
  Mark Ackers: I tell you why. I
• 22:49
  don't know if they do because,
• 22:51
  and I know anyone listening to
• 22:52
  this will take this in the way
• 22:53
  it's intended, to be in sales
• 22:55
  and to be good. And people
• 22:57
  listening to this podcast are
• 22:58
  good at sales because they're
• 22:59
  listening to podcasts. They're
• 23:01
  trying to get better doing the
• 23:02
  work. Exactly they're doing
• 23:03
  that. They're doing the work.
• 23:04
  We've all got some level of
• 23:06
  ego, right? And being aware of
• 23:08
  it, it's important. But we've
• 23:09
  all got some level of ego.
• 23:11
  We've had a level of success.
• 23:13
  I think most people see their
• 23:15
  base salary is that's why I
• 23:16
  get paid, because of how good
• 23:18
  I am not. I'm in debt to this
• 23:20
  business, and I better repay
• 23:22
  that. I don't know. It's an
• 23:24
  interesting one that, like you
• 23:25
  say, I've never really asked
• 23:26
  Will Aitken: people that,
• 23:26
  yeah, and I've never really
• 23:27
  spoken about it. I don't think
• 23:29
  I've ever said this
• 23:29
  definitely, definitely on a
• 23:31
  podcast. But it's also like,
• 23:32
  if you're objective about it,
• 23:33
  the whole job of sales is to
• 23:34
  make the company money, and if
• 23:35
  you're not doing that, then
• 23:36
  you are losing the money 100%
• 23:38
  good salesperson shouldn't
• 23:39
  cost anything. Yeah, exactly.
• 23:41
  It should be a no brainer,
• 23:41
  yeah, that to pay them a base
• 23:44
  and the other commission
• 23:45
  they're earning as well. But I
• 23:46
  think it's harder when you get
• 23:48
  people who
• 23:48
  Mark Ackers: don't, oh, 100%
• 23:49
  like because they are, they
• 23:50
  just a cost on a, on a on the
• 23:52
  spreadsheet, you know, and
• 23:53
  they're not bringing in and
• 23:54
  obviously, it's not just about
• 23:55
  covering their cost. It's
• 23:56
  multiple
• 23:57
  Will Aitken: times that it's,
• 23:59
  it's a similar, I don't know
• 24:00
  if it's, I don't know if this
• 24:01
  is rather just the
• 24:02
  conversation. As you can
• 24:03
  probably tell Mark, Canadians
• 24:05
  don't know this because they
• 24:06
  don't know the different
• 24:06
  lingual areas in the UK. But
• 24:08
  I'm pretty posh. You can
• 24:09
  probably you would you
• 24:11
  consider me posh sounding
• 24:13
  Mark Ackers: when you can't
• 24:14
  really detect where someone's
• 24:15
  from? Yes, yes.
• 24:16
  Will Aitken: Okay, so I went
• 24:17
  to boarding school my father
• 24:18
  sent me to. I think it's like
• 24:19
  the eighth most expensive one
• 24:21
  of the country, but it's also
• 24:22
  the one that's like, also the
• 24:23
  one that's like, all the wrong
• 24:24
  goods go. It's not stove, but
• 24:25
  it's near that, you know. And
• 24:26
  almost my entire life, I felt
• 24:29
  guilt for the fact that my dad
• 24:30
  sent me to school, really
• 24:31
  expensive school, and I went
• 24:33
  to, like, the 78th top
• 24:34
  university in the entire
• 24:35
  country, University of brown.
• 24:37
  At least it said, University
• 24:38
  of of no shame in Polytechnic.
• 24:40
  But at least they had that
• 24:41
  right. I was that was my
• 24:42
  justification, and I felt
• 24:44
  guilty they had spent this
• 24:45
  money on me. I'd actually been
• 24:46
  the least successful of my my
• 24:48
  siblings at that point. My
• 24:49
  sister went to Loughborough.
• 24:51
  My sister went to, I want to
• 24:52
  say she went to University of
• 24:53
  Swansea, actually, but I felt
• 24:55
  this guilt, and I felt like
• 24:57
  that was for a long time until
• 24:58
  I got some therapy and.
• 25:00
  Realise that this isn't how
• 25:01
  you should be thinking about
• 25:02
  things. I felt like I had to
• 25:03
  be successful to make it, to
• 25:05
  make him feel okay about
• 25:07
  spending that now I've now had
• 25:08
  much more mature conversations
• 25:09
  my dad where he's like, Oh,
• 25:10
  well, I wanted for you to be
• 25:11
  happy, man. You don't owe me
• 25:12
  anything. I did that because I
• 25:13
  love my kids, you know. And
• 25:14
  that's a great conversation to
• 25:16
  have, right? In my mind, I had
• 25:17
  to be successful. And I think
• 25:19
  it's very similar almost to
• 25:20
  the fact that when a company
• 25:21
  pays you a salary, I feel like
• 25:22
  I have to, I owe it to them to
• 25:24
  make sure that I am
• 25:25
  profitable. And then some on
• 25:26
  top of that, you know, I mean
• 25:27
  that I think the two mindsets
• 25:29
  are in a similar place. Now, a
• 25:31
  couple of years back, my dad
• 25:32
  was like, will you make twice
• 25:33
  as much as me? And I'm like,
• 25:34
  holy crap, you're the most
• 25:35
  successful person I've ever
• 25:36
  known, or in my mind, he
• 25:38
  always was. Then I realised
• 25:39
  that's not even just it, it's
• 25:40
  not just that, it's not just
• 25:41
  that's not all success and
• 25:42
  happiness, right? That's just
• 25:44
  a side tangent of I was
• 25:45
  thinking about it when you
• 25:46
  asked me that question. That's
• 25:47
  like, similar to
• 25:47
  Mark Ackers: that. I think a
• 25:48
  lot of people can relate to
• 25:49
  that. You know, this feeling
• 25:51
  indebted to someone that's
• 25:52
  given you a great opportunity
• 25:54
  and and part of me wondered if
• 25:55
  the fact that you knew the
• 25:56
  owner of the business that you
• 25:58
  were talking about made you
• 25:59
  feel a slightly different way.
• 26:01
  I think a lot of people will
• 26:02
  relate to that. And it's it
• 26:03
  comes down to that need for
• 26:05
  approval. And that affects so
• 26:06
  many salespeople. And, you
• 26:08
  know, I appreciate people
• 26:09
  listening to this won't see
• 26:10
  the facial expression you just
• 26:11
  pulled, but you kind of pull
• 26:13
  that face where you almost
• 26:14
  saying, now that
• 26:15
  Will Aitken: Yeah, and this is
• 26:16
  something that that I still
• 26:18
  work on today. It's need for
• 26:20
  approval, validation. And you
• 26:21
  can almost hear it when I say,
• 26:22
  I say I was the thing I
• 26:23
  enjoyed about being a top
• 26:24
  salesperson wasn't helping my
• 26:26
  clients. It wasn't making
• 26:27
  tonnes of money because I
• 26:28
  didn't need the money because
• 26:29
  we bought a house at a good
• 26:30
  time, and our payments aren't
• 26:32
  that high, you know, like we
• 26:33
  weren't ever struggling. It
• 26:34
  was winning, being the best.
• 26:37
  And then even now, when you
• 26:38
  look at what I do for my work,
• 26:40
  there is a lot of that they've
• 26:42
  you, if you, if you prioritise
• 26:43
  that over anything else, you
• 26:44
  can become dependent on
• 26:45
  LinkedIn likes and engagement,
• 26:47
  you know, I mean, and I've had
• 26:48
  to, I've had to rein that in.
• 26:49
  I've, I've actually spoken to
• 26:50
  professionals about that very
• 26:52
  topic. That's why, yeah, need
• 26:54
  for approval, chasing
• 26:55
  validation, versus just
• 26:56
  there's this thing of, do you
• 26:58
  want to look successful, or do
• 26:59
  you want to be successful? And
• 27:00
  being successful is a much
• 27:02
  more fulfilling and happy and
• 27:05
  whole place to be than trying
• 27:07
  to look successful. And when I
• 27:08
  say I wanted to be the best,
• 27:09
  that wasn't about being
• 27:10
  successful, in my mind at the
• 27:12
  time, it was about trying to
• 27:13
  look the most successful.
• 27:14
  Mark Ackers: This is one of
• 27:15
  the greatest challenges that
• 27:17
  salespeople have, is a need
• 27:18
  for approval, and it ties back
• 27:19
  in. There's so many threads
• 27:21
  that we could tie this back to
• 27:22
  right, feeling like you don't
• 27:24
  have a skill, feeling like
• 27:26
  you've got to earn money to
• 27:27
  repay, feeling like you've got
• 27:29
  to be the best, feeling like
• 27:30
  you've got to go out and win
• 27:32
  new customers and and validate
• 27:34
  the reasons for being hired
• 27:36
  and being better than
• 27:37
  everybody else. It all comes
• 27:38
  back down to need for
• 27:39
  approval. The impact this has,
• 27:41
  though, in sales
• 27:42
  conversations, and I want to
• 27:44
  be really clear, everybody in
• 27:45
  the world has got a degree of
• 27:47
  need for approval, a degree.
• 27:50
  There's a company in Boston
• 27:52
  called objective management
• 27:53
  group, and they assess
• 27:55
  salespeople. They've got the
• 27:57
  world's most sophisticated
• 27:58
  sales assessment. It's
• 28:00
  research proven, it's
• 28:01
  scientific, it's validated,
• 28:02
  all all those buzzwords, but
• 28:04
  it's it's a phenomenal
• 28:06
  assessment, and when you
• 28:08
  complete it, it benchmarks you
• 28:09
  against 2.5 million sales
• 28:12
  people and counting. I've
• 28:14
  taken one. Everyone in my team
• 28:15
  has taken one. We provide them
• 28:17
  at my sales coach, not an
• 28:19
  intended plug, but since we're
• 28:22
  here, the thing that's really
• 28:24
  interesting is the need for
• 28:25
  approval is the thing. And I
• 28:27
  won't be able to do the stats
• 28:28
  justice, but I'll be able to
• 28:30
  relay them enough that the
• 28:31
  point is made that need for
• 28:33
  approval is the biggest thing
• 28:35
  that separates elite
• 28:36
  salespeople to weak
• 28:38
  salespeople. And when I say
• 28:40
  elite, they found, bear in
• 28:41
  mind, 2.5 million people. They
• 28:43
  found that only 6% salespeople
• 28:46
  are elite, which is, which is
• 28:47
  such a small number, but when
• 28:48
  they look into the biggest
• 28:49
  differences, and this is the
• 28:50
  bit, I won't know the exact
• 28:52
  maps and percentages, but need
• 28:55
  for approval was the biggest
• 28:56
  thing that they found that the
• 28:58
  elite didn't have it. Okay,
• 28:59
  that was my question. The
• 29:00
  Elite didn't have it. Because
• 29:02
  when you've got a need for
• 29:03
  approval, the weaker you are
• 29:05
  in sales, the more it becomes
• 29:07
  a need to be loved, right?
• 29:09
  Need for approval means you
• 29:11
  don't want to upset the person
• 29:13
  you're speaking to, and when
• 29:14
  you don't want to upset them,
• 29:15
  it's because you're worried
• 29:16
  about what they might say or
• 29:18
  feel to what you're about to
• 29:19
  say. What that stops you from
• 29:21
  doing is asking the tough
• 29:23
  questions that get to the
• 29:24
  truth really going beyond
• 29:25
  surface level pain, and when
• 29:27
  you've got that need for
• 29:28
  approval, you fear asking
• 29:29
  those questions because you're
• 29:31
  connected to the outcome, you
• 29:32
  don't want to upset them. You
• 29:33
  want to be loved, you want to
• 29:35
  be liked, you want to be seen
• 29:37
  as helpful and successful. You
• 29:38
  want to be a servant. You
• 29:40
  don't want to be a
• 29:41
  consultative seller. And I
• 29:43
  think everybody's had a moment
• 29:45
  in their career where they
• 29:46
  realise I'm just doing what
• 29:48
  I'm told. This prospect is
• 29:49
  pushing me around. They're
• 29:51
  bullying me. They're, they're,
• 29:53
  they're getting what they
• 29:53
  want. And, you know, I've got
• 29:55
  loads of stories, yeah,
• 29:57
  exactly, being used, you know?
• 29:59
  And it's fascinating. That you
• 30:00
  seem to be so in tune that
• 30:01
  you've had this need for
• 30:02
  approval. I love that you've
• 30:04
  openly spoken a couple of
• 30:05
  times already just about
• 30:06
  having therapy and, you know,
• 30:08
  speaking to someone that can
• 30:09
  help you work through what is
• 30:10
  head trash, but is put in
• 30:12
  there to everybody as part of
• 30:14
  the way we grow up. So need
• 30:16
  for approval is a fascinating
• 30:17
  topic, and we're not going too
• 30:19
  deep. Everybody listening to
• 30:20
  this podcast, it's had that
• 30:21
  realisation, or they will go
• 30:23
  on to have it as a result.
• 30:25
  Listen to this where they've
• 30:26
  not asked the prospect the
• 30:27
  right questions because
• 30:29
  they've been worried about
• 30:30
  what they might say and how
• 30:31
  they might feel. And the
• 30:32
  reality is, when you don't ask
• 30:34
  the right questions, you don't
• 30:35
  get to the truth, and when you
• 30:36
  don't get to the truth, you
• 30:37
  can't help
• 30:38
  Will Aitken: so Chase lies a
• 30:40
  pipeline full of lies,
• 30:41
  Mark Ackers: well, lies and
• 30:42
  hope and that doesn't sell.
• 30:45
  And I would say, Well, let me
• 30:47
  ask you, if someone listens to
• 30:49
  this has realised that they've
• 30:50
  got a need for approval or
• 30:52
  even a need to be loved,
• 30:53
  what's something they can do
• 30:54
  to start to overcome that
• 30:55
  sounds like you've you've
• 30:56
  gotten a bit of a journey.
• 30:57
  Will Aitken: Think about what
• 30:58
  you do when no one's watching,
• 31:00
  and lose the ego just for a
• 31:02
  minute and realise that you
• 31:05
  need to focus on what you know
• 31:07
  about yourself versus what
• 31:09
  other people might think or
• 31:10
  know about you. Most people,
• 31:12
  when they look inwards, aren't
• 31:13
  happy sometimes with what they
• 31:15
  truly have been bringing to
• 31:17
  the table, what they would
• 31:18
  bring to the table if no one
• 31:19
  was going to pat them on the
• 31:20
  back, if no one was going to
• 31:21
  say they liked them or they
• 31:23
  did a good job, what would you
• 31:24
  do? Then that's what you need
• 31:26
  to think about, versus these
• 31:28
  approvals that don't really
• 31:30
  mean anything. It's a much
• 31:32
  more deep topic than that, I
• 31:33
  think, but it needs to come
• 31:35
  from what would you be without
• 31:36
  approval? And are you building
• 31:38
  the skill set and the mindset
• 31:40
  that would make you proud of
• 31:42
  yourself versus anyone else
• 31:44
  proud or happy with you or
• 31:46
  like,
• 31:46
  Mark Ackers: how old you will
• 31:47
  you don't mind me asking, I'm
• 31:49
  3030, so yeah, you're you're
• 31:51
  seven years younger than me.
• 31:52
  So this will relate even more
• 31:53
  to you, but with the rise that
• 31:56
  you have seen, as I say, you'd
• 31:57
  have been younger when you got
• 31:58
  exposed to it. But the rise of
• 32:00
  social media, I feel like the
• 32:01
  need for approval rocketed. Oh
• 32:03
  my gosh, because everything is
• 32:06
  about instant gratification.
• 32:08
  Everything is about likes,
• 32:10
  shares. This is where I'm
• 32:12
  going to stand a little bit on
• 32:14
  retweets or hearts, whatever
• 32:16
  it is in platforms, right? But
• 32:18
  it's that instant
• 32:19
  gratification and that need
• 32:21
  for approval like you want to,
• 32:23
  you want to share what you do,
• 32:24
  but if you're in a career of
• 32:25
  sales, having that need for
• 32:27
  approval is going to really
• 32:29
  harm your career and the
• 32:30
  trajectory of it. And I think
• 32:32
  just even becoming self aware
• 32:34
  is the starting point. What a
• 32:35
  great segment. Let's start to
• 32:37
  move on. Obviously, we're
• 32:38
  going to end up to where you
• 32:39
  are today will, which is
• 32:40
  obviously in a phenomenal
• 32:41
  place, but we're not quite
• 32:42
  done yet with your with your
• 32:43
  journey, because you shared
• 32:45
  with me, and I wouldn't have
• 32:46
  known this, and I love that
• 32:48
  you shared this in advance.
• 32:49
  When you were@hr.com you said
• 32:52
  you felt like you were
• 32:53
  constantly worried about
• 32:54
  getting fired. And again,
• 32:55
  every salesperson has had that
• 32:57
  feeling, right, like they've
• 32:58
  had bad cause, bad months, but
• 33:00
  you seem to Yo Yo, 230% one
• 33:03
  quarter, 11% another quarter.
• 33:05
  What was going on?
• 33:06
  Will Aitken: Yeah. So after I
• 33:07
  finished up that recruitment
• 33:08
  agency in Australia, and this
• 33:10
  was also like, I felt a lot of
• 33:11
  guilt for because they were
• 33:12
  sponsoring me to stay in
• 33:13
  Australia. So that means they
• 33:15
  were spending money and going
• 33:16
  for effort to make sure I
• 33:17
  could remain now when, when
• 33:18
  you're under a certain type of
• 33:19
  visa there, you wouldn't be
• 33:20
  able to work at a job for more
• 33:21
  than six months. And at the
• 33:22
  time, I knew that if I told
• 33:23
  them I was planning to leave
• 33:25
  within the next couple of
• 33:26
  years, they would never keep
• 33:27
  me employed, because
• 33:28
  recruitment sales, it's a
• 33:29
  longer pipeline than you know
• 33:31
  that normally. And I felt like
• 33:33
  if I told them the truth about
• 33:34
  that, then they would not want
• 33:35
  to keep me around, even if I
• 33:37
  was doing well. But I always
• 33:38
  my wife, uh, is from Canada,
• 33:41
  and she when we met, and I
• 33:43
  started doing all this, she
• 33:44
  was actually she'd gone
• 33:45
  travelling by herself, and she
• 33:47
  had left her degree half
• 33:48
  finished, so she knew she
• 33:49
  wanted to go back and finish.
• 33:50
  So we stayed for longer than
• 33:51
  we planned to, and I carried
• 33:52
  on working at the recruitment
• 33:53
  agency. But I had this. I
• 33:55
  always knew I was going to
• 33:56
  move to North America to help
• 33:57
  her with finishing her studies
• 33:59
  and go there. And this is
• 34:00
  where I was thinking, Okay,
• 34:01
  well, from what I know, I'd
• 34:02
  really like to get into
• 34:03
  software sales, because I've
• 34:04
  been hiring these people. I've
• 34:05
  been recruiting them. I'd
• 34:06
  known about the OTs and I'd
• 34:07
  seen Whoa. I mean, recruitment
• 34:09
  is great money as well. But
• 34:10
  like, I was also thinking, the
• 34:11
  part I enjoy a lot about this
• 34:12
  isn't working with flaky
• 34:13
  candidates. It's also it's
• 34:15
  working for clients. It's
• 34:16
  talking to them. As I said,
• 34:17
  the thing that made me
• 34:17
  different in the office was my
• 34:19
  ability to cold call and
• 34:20
  willingness to do it. So I
• 34:21
  thought, if I could get paid
• 34:23
  more to just do the selling
• 34:24
  part of it, instead of trying
• 34:26
  to manage a pipeline for the
• 34:27
  candidates as well. That's a
• 34:28
  great outcome, right? And it
• 34:29
  was quite funny, because when
• 34:30
  I, when I finally told them,
• 34:32
  they're like, Why didn't you
• 34:33
  tell us sooner? That
• 34:34
  recruitment agency, they, man,
• 34:35
  we would have, we would have
• 34:36
  helped you. We've got you on
• 34:37
  stuff that you could have
• 34:38
  worked close quicker. And
• 34:39
  then, man, they've really
• 34:40
  helped me out as well. They
• 34:41
  gave me a huge bonus when I
• 34:42
  left and they said, You they
• 34:43
  said, You didn't stop trying
• 34:44
  until the day, until your very
• 34:45
  last day, like you were always
• 34:46
  there. They took me out for
• 34:47
  dinner. I'm like, Guys, I've
• 34:48
  lied to you and betrayed you,
• 34:49
  and I'm leaving you guys,
• 34:50
  like, why are you being so
• 34:51
  nice? And they're like, Could
• 34:51
  you show it up? And I was
• 34:52
  like, That felt really, really
• 34:53
  nice. So I still talk to the
• 34:55
  Managing Director, my team
• 34:56
  lead from that company.
• 34:57
  Because, you know, a lot of
• 34:58
  people would have been, wow,
• 34:58
  he lied to us. Get me. Out,
• 35:00
  but they just wish me my best
• 35:01
  on my move to North America,
• 35:03
  and off I went. So then when I
• 35:04
  landed North America, my wife
• 35:05
  is from a small province
• 35:06
  called Prince Edward Island,
• 35:07
  where there are about 50,000
• 35:09
  people who live there and a
• 35:10
  university. And believe it or
• 35:11
  not, there's not many tech
• 35:12
  companies there. So my goal of
• 35:13
  getting into tech wasn't as
• 35:15
  realistic it could be.
• 35:16
  However, there was a company
• 35:17
  that sold to tech companies,
• 35:18
  and they were selling media
• 35:19
  sponsorships, email campaigns.
• 35:21
  They were like this big media
• 35:23
  company, essentially for HR
• 35:26
  people. So a lot of the
• 35:27
  sponsorships you were selling
• 35:28
  into were companies like
• 35:30
  CareerBuilder, the job ad
• 35:31
  sites, indeed, LinkedIn. You
• 35:33
  know anyone who has a HR
• 35:34
  audience, we were selling
• 35:35
  into. So it was close enough,
• 35:37
  and I needed a job that it was
• 35:39
  along along the way of where I
• 35:40
  wanted to get to. It was B to
• 35:41
  B. It was somewhat
• 35:42
  consultative selling. So
• 35:44
  that's where I ended up there.
• 35:45
  But it wasn't all sunshine and
• 35:47
  rainbows from where I just
• 35:48
  come off feeling like I was
• 35:49
  top of the world. Even when I
• 35:50
  left, they still loved me.
• 35:51
  That company was a little bit
• 35:53
  different how so I was working
• 35:55
  fully remotely, and this was
• 35:56
  before 2020 when that wasn't
• 35:58
  really the norm, and I wasn't
• 36:00
  prepared to. I have focus
• 36:02
  issues, be it ADHD or just
• 36:04
  avoidance. So when I was in a
• 36:06
  room by myself, in my office,
• 36:07
  all that cold calling, I told
• 36:08
  you I love doing harder to do
• 36:10
  when I only had myself to keep
• 36:11
  myself accountable, and there
• 36:12
  was detachment from all these
• 36:13
  people I worked with and knew
• 36:15
  it was really, really tough.
• 36:16
  So I'd go through these big,
• 36:17
  big pushes of motivation, and
• 36:19
  then I'd slack off, you know,
• 36:20
  and not work as hard as I
• 36:21
  should have done. I also, oh
• 36:23
  God, the things I was doing,
• 36:25
  the skills that I had at that
• 36:26
  point, you know, I've read
• 36:27
  your book practical
• 36:28
  prospecting. Is it problem?
• 36:29
  Prospecting? Sorry, I
• 36:30
  apologise, you know, my the
• 36:31
  messages, the emails that, and
• 36:32
  I wasn't really making any
• 36:33
  calls, honestly, they were
• 36:34
  bad, you know. And so I was
• 36:36
  just kind of brute forcing it
• 36:38
  by sheer volume. When I had
• 36:39
  the motivation, which was rare
• 36:41
  or inconsistent. Should I say?
• 36:42
  I had a sales leader who very
• 36:44
  quickly left after I joined
• 36:45
  after she hired me, and then
• 36:46
  we replaced him with another
• 36:47
  sales leader. But that sales
• 36:49
  leader wasn't really the type
• 36:50
  to get involved. He just said,
• 36:51
  Oh, cool. Keep doing what
• 36:52
  you're doing. You know. Just
• 36:53
  didn't really have to talk to
• 36:54
  me. You'd cancel out one on
• 36:55
  one every week pretty much.
• 36:56
  And then when we get on we'd
• 36:57
  be like, how you doing, mate?
• 36:58
  Yeah, good you. Yeah, good
• 36:59
  bye. That was it, you know,
• 37:00
  got any big deals? Yeah,
• 37:01
  that's that, you know, there
• 37:02
  was no All right, what are you
• 37:03
  struggling with? What do you
• 37:04
  want to work on? Because I was
• 37:05
  having these big ups and
• 37:06
  downs. I was sometimes being
• 37:07
  celebrated, but then most time
• 37:09
  not or, like, it wasn't even
• 37:10
  that much celebration as a
• 37:12
  team, because we know no one
• 37:13
  knew each other. We were
• 37:13
  remote. We used to go to
• 37:14
  conferences. Sometimes that
• 37:16
  was nice. And I got to walk
• 37:17
  the floor and basically try
• 37:18
  and sell a bunch of trade show
• 37:19
  sponsors. If you've ever been
• 37:21
  to a trade show, you know,
• 37:21
  there's these people walking
• 37:22
  the show. Walking the show
• 37:23
  show floor, trying to sell it,
• 37:24
  you know that then they're not
• 37:25
  there as attendees. They're
• 37:26
  just that. So I was, I think
• 37:27
  it's called briefcasing. I was
• 37:28
  just doing that a lot, and
• 37:29
  that was quite good fun, to be
• 37:31
  honest. That's probably where
• 37:32
  I got the most of my success.
• 37:33
  Because you're at an event,
• 37:34
  you're there, you got paid to
• 37:35
  fly out there, you're going
• 37:36
  to, you know, work. You know,
• 37:37
  I started making a lot of
• 37:38
  excuses for I wasn't doing
• 37:39
  well. Rather than being
• 37:40
  accountable for the fact that
• 37:41
  I wasn't really trying by
• 37:42
  showing up in any meaningful
• 37:44
  Mark Ackers: way. You shared
• 37:44
  that as well. You said you
• 37:46
  blamed everything, like your
• 37:47
  manager, the territory, the
• 37:49
  product, but you didn't blame
• 37:51
  yourself at that point. What
• 37:53
  is interesting is that there
• 37:54
  are, and you can be like a
• 37:56
  degree of one of these, but
• 37:57
  I've just found there's two
• 37:58
  types of people, when you work
• 37:59
  with them, if you think about
• 38:00
  your finger and your thumb,
• 38:01
  when something goes wrong,
• 38:02
  goes wrong, you either point
• 38:03
  with your thumb inwards, or
• 38:05
  you point with your finger
• 38:06
  outwards. Sounds like
• 38:07
  initially you were pointing
• 38:08
  your finger outwards. Oh, big
• 38:09
  time. It's my manager. It's my
• 38:11
  territory. It's the product.
• 38:13
  But then it sounds like you
• 38:14
  transition where you point
• 38:15
  inwards and tell me that's not
• 38:17
  easy for people to do. How did
• 38:18
  you go from taking no to
• 38:20
  responsibility, no
• 38:21
  responsibility to full
• 38:23
  responsibility. I'm
• 38:23
  Will Aitken: not sure there
• 38:24
  was a moment that I can
• 38:25
  pinpoint. I just knew that I
• 38:27
  hadn't been showing up, and it
• 38:29
  was almost like I wanted a
• 38:30
  fresh start. You know, I said
• 38:32
  I had me showing up here, and
• 38:33
  that almost made me go almost
• 38:35
  embarrassed I hadn't been
• 38:36
  showing up, and I knew I
• 38:37
  hadn't been. The thing is, I
• 38:38
  was going, okay, my territory
• 38:39
  sucks. The CEO's daughter, has
• 38:41
  the best territory. No wonder
• 38:42
  she's the best rep. She was
• 38:43
  really, actually very good at
• 38:44
  selling, like, very good. When
• 38:47
  I was on a call, I wasn't,
• 38:48
  like, writing down what she
• 38:49
  was doing. She was doing,
• 38:49
  like, deep discovery on media,
• 38:51
  which is quite transactional
• 38:52
  product. She was really
• 38:53
  finding people's problems. She
• 38:54
  was disqualifying. She was
• 38:56
  challenging people's opinions.
• 38:57
  You know, I'd just be like,
• 38:58
  Oh, all right, here's a deck.
• 38:59
  This is what we offer. Product
• 39:01
  one, product two, product
• 39:02
  three. These the results we
• 39:03
  drive. Would you like to buy?
• 39:04
  Sometimes not even ask that
• 39:05
  quite let's be probably most
• 39:07
  time I would even ask that.
• 39:08
  You know, I wasn't thinking
• 39:09
  about like, Okay, what am I
• 39:10
  showing up with? It was
• 39:11
  probably very soon after that
• 39:12
  conversation my wife, yeah,
• 39:13
  because my son was born in
• 39:15
  April of 2020, I went back to
• 39:17
  work in in late May. It was,
• 39:20
  though, during those months
• 39:21
  where I was having some bad
• 39:22
  performance, I then just said,
• 39:23
  I need to, I need to, I need
• 39:25
  to change, and I don't want to
• 39:26
  give up on sales just yet. And
• 39:27
  I think I'd been reading
• 39:28
  about, I knew, I read that it
• 39:30
  was possible, and maybe even
• 39:32
  the things in my head like,
• 39:33
  Oh, it's my territory. It's my
• 39:34
  my manager, it's my manager.
• 39:35
  Did leave very soon after I
• 39:36
  came back from parental leave,
• 39:37
  my managers, my territory. I
• 39:38
  was like, Oh, I was good to a
• 39:39
  new company, but better
• 39:40
  product, a better manager and
• 39:42
  a better product, a better
• 39:43
  manager and a better
• 39:44
  territory, you know? I mean,
• 39:44
  that was probably my
• 39:45
  motivation to that point. I
• 39:47
  didn't recognise now I look
• 39:48
  back at that company, I'm
• 39:49
  like, I could have made bank
• 39:50
  if I hadn't known them. What I
• 39:51
  know now, that comp plan was
• 39:52
  ripe for the abusing like
• 39:53
  insane. Money could have been
• 39:54
  made there, but at the time, I
• 39:55
  didn't, I wasn't honest with
• 39:56
  myself about that. I just
• 39:58
  assumed they're the problem.
• 39:58
  So I'm going to change. And to
• 40:00
  get that change, I had to find
• 40:01
  a new company.
• 40:02
  Mark Ackers: So you said,
• 40:03
  again, you're very helpful. In
• 40:05
  terms of a few notes
• 40:06
  beforehand, you said this was
• 40:07
  the point in your career where
• 40:09
  you allowed yourself to be
• 40:10
  coached. And you actually used
• 40:12
  the word finally. I finally
• 40:13
  allowed myself to be coached.
• 40:14
  Tell me more about that moment
• 40:15
  and what changed I was at this
• 40:17
  company. I blamed
• 40:18
  Will Aitken: everything, and I
• 40:18
  thought that was that was
• 40:19
  probably the reason why I left
• 40:21
  that company. I didn't have
• 40:22
  the realisation. Company. I
• 40:23
  didn't have the realisation
• 40:24
  while I was working there that
• 40:25
  I was the problem, yeah, but
• 40:26
  then I applied to a new
• 40:27
  company, and during that sale,
• 40:28
  during the interview process,
• 40:29
  I realised I was horribly
• 40:31
  under qualified and not what
• 40:32
  they were looking for. So
• 40:33
  during the first interview
• 40:35
  with the manager there, I
• 40:36
  tried to keep the focus off me
• 40:37
  as much as possible. And this
• 40:38
  is actually kind of a tip I've
• 40:39
  learned since that's actually
• 40:40
  a really good way to run an
• 40:41
  interview. I was just asking
• 40:42
  just asking him questions
• 40:44
  about the role, why the role
• 40:44
  was available, what he was
• 40:46
  hoping that someone would
• 40:47
  achieve in the role, like what
• 40:48
  the rest of the team looked
• 40:49
  like. And inadvertently, I was
• 40:50
  actually doing discovery, but
• 40:51
  I don't think I realised it.
• 40:53
  And I also said to him, hey,
• 40:54
  you know, you mentioned you
• 40:55
  got this team and you're
• 40:56
  really happy with a team
• 40:57
  you've done speak transition
• 40:58
  recently, like, what's some
• 40:59
  things that the team are
• 41:00
  doing, and what resources they
• 41:02
  looking at, because I'd love
• 41:03
  to see if there's any that I'm
• 41:04
  not yet looking at. And he
• 41:05
  said, there's two things we
• 41:06
  love here that really, really
• 41:08
  worked well for us. One is gap
• 41:09
  selling, and the second one is
• 41:11
  the sound of the sales system,
• 41:12
  neither of which I'd even
• 41:13
  heard of at the time. And he
• 41:14
  said, I'd love to take you to
• 41:15
  another interview. You seem
• 41:16
  like an interesting dude.
• 41:17
  Sounds like you're you know
• 41:18
  this, this is aligned with
• 41:19
  somewhat of your experience. I
• 41:20
  was a little bit worried when
• 41:21
  I saw that you were selling
• 41:22
  media. I was worried you
• 41:23
  weren't being going to be very
• 41:24
  consulted, but you're asking a
• 41:25
  lot of questions, which is
• 41:26
  good, give me hope. And I was
• 41:26
  like, Okay, I've kind of faked
• 41:27
  my way through this. So then
• 41:29
  you told me those two things.
• 41:30
  So the first thing I did was I
• 41:31
  went and bought gap selling
• 41:32
  auto, order your book, and I
• 41:34
  booked a second interview of
• 41:35
  the other hiring manager in
• 41:36
  that case, who would actually
• 41:37
  end up being my manager. And
• 41:38
  it was a week later, so I took
• 41:40
  a sound the sales system.
• 41:41
  Course, I paid for it myself
• 41:42
  and listened to gap something
• 41:44
  like three or four times.
• 41:44
  Keenan is an intense guy. I'm
• 41:46
  now writing a book with him
• 41:47
  myself. He is shouting, but it
• 41:48
  really resonated with me. It
• 41:50
  all kind of, it was almost
• 41:51
  like clocking out because I
• 41:52
  was still working in several
• 41:53
  companies like, I've not been
• 41:54
  doing any of this question
• 41:55
  thing, not really been
• 41:56
  understanding anyone's
• 41:58
  situation before they even get
• 41:59
  like, before I start showing
• 42:00
  my product, like, I this was
• 42:01
  like, a light bulb moment, and
• 42:03
  I was hearing this like, Oh my
• 42:04
  God, there is so much I could
• 42:05
  have already been doing
• 42:06
  better. Why did I not listen
• 42:07
  to this and go and look out
• 42:08
  for this stuff two years ago,
• 42:09
  I would have had a great time
• 42:10
  and you, but like, it was
• 42:11
  actually really exciting to be
• 42:13
  learning, right? So then by
• 42:14
  the time the second interview
• 42:15
  came around, I'd like gotten
• 42:16
  consumers resources, so I kind
• 42:17
  of knew what they wanted to
• 42:18
  hear. So I was so this guy was
• 42:19
  like, Can you walk me through
• 42:20
  your sales process? And I gave
• 42:21
  him like the classic, yeah. So
• 42:22
  I go early on, and I basically
• 42:24
  just recited what I just
• 42:25
  learned, which wasn't
• 42:26
  necessarily the truth about
• 42:27
  how I actually was running my
• 42:28
  sales process at the time like
• 42:29
  I told you. I was showing up,
• 42:30
  putting a deck up, and just
• 42:31
  taking them with it and hoping
• 42:32
  they'd buy. So I told him
• 42:33
  instead that I was doing a
• 42:34
  much more consultative
• 42:36
  solution style sale, but
• 42:37
  because I had all this new
• 42:38
  information in my brain, I was
• 42:39
  just kind of telling him what
• 42:41
  I just learned, but I thought
• 42:42
  it was okay, because I said to
• 42:43
  myself, Okay, now I know that
• 42:44
  I there's all this new stuff
• 42:45
  that I haven't even focused I
• 42:47
  will. I'm okay with bending
• 42:49
  the truth a little bit. Let's
• 42:50
  get this opportunity, because
• 42:51
  I know I'll make up for it,
• 42:52
  and I will show up if I get
• 42:53
  it. And this is the point, I
• 42:54
  think, where ego almost
• 42:56
  completely dissolved. I
• 42:57
  suddenly realised I know
• 42:58
  nothing, and if I want to be
• 43:00
  successful, I'm going to have
• 43:01
  to try and work and get
• 43:03
  coached and learn more from
• 43:05
  places like what I'd already
• 43:06
  learned, gap, selling and
• 43:07
  timer, get my manager to help
• 43:09
  me. So I was like, Okay, I'm
• 43:10
  gonna, I'm gonna probably have
• 43:11
  to, like, to get this job. And
• 43:12
  I did get the job in the end,
• 43:13
  but once I'm in there, I will
• 43:15
  not make failure an option. It
• 43:16
  can't be. I would do. I would
• 43:17
  take every piece of coaching.
• 43:19
  I will commit my heart to
• 43:21
  learning this, because at this
• 43:22
  point, I have to make it work.
• 43:24
  And sure enough, then we got
• 43:25
  in, and the two managers I
• 43:27
  worked with at the time, and
• 43:28
  I'll give them full credit,
• 43:29
  Daniel Herbert and Scott
• 43:30
  tower, were incredibly
• 43:32
  involved. We were doing two a
• 43:34
  week call reviews. We were
• 43:35
  doing team tape reviews. We
• 43:36
  were doing training sessions,
• 43:37
  both as a team and one on one.
• 43:38
  I'd never had anyone listen to
• 43:39
  my calls before. At first, I
• 43:40
  was like, oh, that sounds
• 43:41
  scary. I'm gonna have someone.
• 43:42
  Scary. I'm gonna have someone
• 43:43
  listen to my recordings. I'm
• 43:45
  terrified of that. Like, now,
• 43:46
  now they're gonna know I'm
• 43:46
  full of shit. But I then I
• 43:47
  realised, oh no, hang on. Will
• 43:49
  stop caring what they think
• 43:50
  and just look at what they're
• 43:51
  saying. So you can use that
• 43:52
  stuff to get better. And it
• 43:53
  really worked. Like I would
• 43:54
  say, even my willingness to
• 43:55
  listen to my own calls, that
• 43:56
  was probably the biggest thing
• 43:57
  that improved my ability to
• 43:58
  sell and the work on specific
• 44:00
  parts. And I then had a sales
• 44:01
  process as well that I stuck
• 44:02
  to. And then once I started
• 44:03
  doing well, I had this
• 44:04
  confidence, not because I was
• 44:06
  like, being the best and doing
• 44:07
  really well. It's like I
• 44:08
  suddenly felt competent all of
• 44:09
  a sudden. And for context, the
• 44:11
  company I was working at the
• 44:12
  time, they had never had a
• 44:13
  sales rep hit quota, because
• 44:15
  it was a monthly quota, not
• 44:16
  once, certainly not 345,
• 44:18
  months in a row. And I was
• 44:19
  just like, it was, it was
• 44:20
  almost easy, you know, and if
• 44:22
  they were really great, not
• 44:23
  only because I was winning,
• 44:24
  but once I was winning, I
• 44:25
  stopped caring about that as
• 44:26
  well that piece, even though
• 44:27
  I'd always been focused on in
• 44:29
  the past, and I got better at
• 44:30
  disqualifying and asking those
• 44:32
  really tough questions, and
• 44:34
  although I hadn't read the
• 44:35
  book at the time, essentially
• 44:36
  challenging my customers on
• 44:38
  like that, because also found
• 44:40
  that that company, the company
• 44:41
  I was working for, still
• 44:42
  didn't have a great product.
• 44:44
  There was a lot of deals
• 44:45
  where, if I had have gone
• 44:46
  product first, I would never
• 44:48
  have won, because we were
• 44:49
  inferior to the biggest
• 44:50
  competitor. We were, like the
• 44:51
  third or fourth best in that
• 44:53
  space, I would say we weren't
• 44:54
  a widely adopted solution. The
• 44:55
  other competitor had the same
• 44:56
  price point on us, and then a
• 44:58
  lot more functionality and
• 44:59
  integration. And all that type
• 45:00
  of stuff. So the only thing I
• 45:01
  could control, though, was the
• 45:02
  way I showed up and sold and I
• 45:03
  found that would still made it
• 45:05
  possible to do some serious
• 45:06
  numbers
• 45:07
  Mark Ackers: there. Hey, sales
• 45:07
  leaders, do you want a cost
• 45:09
  effective way to develop your
• 45:10
  team skills and help them
• 45:11
  smash their quotas? My sales
• 45:13
  coach offers team memberships
• 45:15
  for just 20 pounds per month
• 45:17
  per individual plus VAT. This
• 45:19
  will give your reps access to
• 45:20
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• 45:23
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• 45:24
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• 45:26
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• 45:28
  over 25 group sessions to
• 45:29
  choose from. Monthly. There's
• 45:31
  something for every role. We
• 45:33
  have. Sessions for SDRs all
• 45:34
  the way out to CROs. Empower
• 45:36
  your team to perform to their
• 45:38
  best visit mysalescoach.com to
• 45:40
  get started. The link is in
• 45:42
  the description. There's loads
• 45:43
  to unpack there, but I'm
• 45:44
  smiling because I feel like
• 45:46
  this is, this is the turning
• 45:47
  point, right? And if I break
• 45:49
  down what I'm hearing and what
• 45:51
  I believe all ties together.
• 45:53
  You go for this interview. You
• 45:54
  meet some people, impress you.
• 45:55
  They name a couple of books.
• 45:57
  One bit of advice I'd give to
• 45:58
  anybody listening to this
• 45:59
  podcast, and this has always
• 46:00
  served me well, is every
• 46:02
  manager I've ever had has had
• 46:03
  a book, a book that they've
• 46:04
  read, a book that they've
• 46:05
  loved, and whether they want
• 46:07
  to admit it or not, maybe they
• 46:08
  don't even realise it. It deep
• 46:10
  down, kind of dictates how
• 46:12
  they feel about sales and
• 46:13
  their philosophy. And I can, I
• 46:15
  can rattle off some of those
• 46:16
  books, right? So one of my
• 46:17
  first bosses, her book was
• 46:19
  Jeffrey Kitman, the sales
• 46:20
  Bible. I remember she gave it
• 46:22
  to me, and I took this shitty
• 46:24
  old book to two new zero on
• 46:26
  holiday with my girlfriend,
• 46:28
  and I remember her looking at
• 46:29
  me like, What are you reading?
• 46:30
  I remember someone at the pool
• 46:31
  laughed at me because it was
• 46:33
  called the sales Bible. But I
• 46:34
  was like, no, no, this. If
• 46:35
  this book's important to her,
• 46:37
  I need to read it. Soon as I
• 46:38
  read it, I understood her a
• 46:39
  whole lot better. I then had a
• 46:40
  different boss, and it was the
• 46:41
  lean startup. I read this book
• 46:43
  I didn't enjoy at all, but
• 46:45
  understood him a whole lot
• 46:47
  more. And then it was
• 46:48
  fanatical prospecting. Then it
• 46:50
  was, I think it was the
• 46:51
  challenges out, right? And and
• 46:53
  then it was no what was the
• 46:55
  predictable revenue, right?
• 46:57
  All these books I'm getting
• 46:58
  the time I say wrong, but
• 47:00
  every manager I've had has had
• 47:01
  a book. If you can find what
• 47:03
  that book is and read it, you
• 47:04
  understand them a whole lot
• 47:05
  better. And you've gone away.
• 47:07
  And this is the interesting
• 47:09
  bit. You've read gap selling.
• 47:11
  I listened to it. I won't lie,
• 47:12
  yeah, no, no, don't worry.
• 47:13
  It's absolutely fine. You've
• 47:14
  Will Aitken: listened so some
• 47:15
  people will fight you on that
• 47:16
  one over accounts, but I
• 47:17
  listened to it like a few
• 47:18
  times on two work speed, one
• 47:19
  at one beat. Speed took notes
• 47:21
  the second time through. You
• 47:22
  know? So
• 47:23
  Mark Ackers: it's interesting.
• 47:23
  I think, look, this comes down
• 47:25
  to everyone's got their own
• 47:26
  learning styles. I think some
• 47:27
  books are totally acceptable
• 47:29
  as audio books. There are some
• 47:31
  books that I feel like you
• 47:32
  need to read because, because
• 47:34
  they're really tactical, but
• 47:35
  that that's me. Do you remain
• 47:36
  like I
• 47:36
  Will Aitken: enjoyed reading
• 47:37
  your book? I don't think. I
• 47:38
  don't even know if you have an
• 47:39
  audio book
• 47:40
  Mark Ackers: on that one. I
• 47:40
  don't know. I feel like the
• 47:41
  accent would ruin it. So,
• 47:43
  Will Aitken: yeah, word, I'm
• 47:44
  sorry, mate, you and Richard,
• 47:45
  Yeah, hello there. You know
• 47:47
  the northern thing, especially
• 47:48
  for American audiences. They
• 47:50
  were like, What are they
• 47:50
  speaking English
• 47:51
  Mark Ackers: Exactly. So, no,
• 47:53
  we don't. But again, I would
• 47:54
  say that I feel like so
• 47:55
  problem prospecting, which you
• 47:57
  kindly reference, and then you
• 47:59
  very kindly help promote
• 48:00
  deconstructing discovery. I
• 48:02
  actually passionately believe
• 48:04
  that they are better to be
• 48:05
  read because of how tactical
• 48:07
  they are in the transcripts,
• 48:08
  et cetera, that. And I do
• 48:09
  think our accents would be
• 48:10
  horrendous, but there we are.
• 48:12
  But back to my point, you've
• 48:13
  gone and read these books, and
• 48:14
  I think this is the moment
• 48:16
  when you realised, oh, hang
• 48:17
  on, this is a skill. This is
• 48:19
  something that you can learn
• 48:20
  and something you can get
• 48:21
  better at. Holy shit. Imagine
• 48:23
  if I would have read these
• 48:24
  books five years ago, and this
• 48:26
  is where you go. Okay, if I
• 48:28
  can just get this job, work
• 48:30
  with these people, learn these
• 48:32
  ways of selling, get get
• 48:34
  surrounded by people that have
• 48:36
  been where I want to be, got
• 48:37
  what I want. If I can get the
• 48:39
  coaching that I need, I can
• 48:40
  build this career that Do you
• 48:42
  know what I've always wanted?
• 48:43
  And then here's the kicker,
• 48:45
  you need for approvals gone,
• 48:46
  because you're now working
• 48:48
  with people that are and I
• 48:49
  know you're saying the right
• 48:50
  way at this point in their
• 48:51
  careers ahead of you. They're
• 48:53
  smarter than you, they're
• 48:54
  ahead of you. They're further
• 48:55
  ahead. They've done what you
• 48:56
  want to do. Your egos had to
• 48:58
  go. You've got a six month old
• 49:00
  baby. You've got a family
• 49:02
  that's depending on you.
• 49:03
  There's no time for egos.
• 49:04
  You've realised I'm in this
• 49:06
  career. I can't get out of it.
• 49:08
  This is a skill I've been
• 49:09
  exposed to, this literature,
• 49:10
  these books. I've got this
• 49:12
  opportunity in front of me. I
• 49:13
  actually don't care anymore.
• 49:15
  Criticise my calls, because
• 49:16
  when you do that, I get better
• 49:18
  because you're coachable. And
• 49:20
  this feels like just the key
• 49:21
  moment where so many things
• 49:23
  have come together, but the
• 49:24
  best thing of all is you've
• 49:26
  realised it's a skill, and
• 49:28
  you've dropped your ego, and
• 49:29
  you've lost the need for
• 49:30
  approval, because you know
• 49:32
  this is what's going to send
• 49:33
  you down the path that you
• 49:34
  want to get to, and where
• 49:36
  you're going to do for your
• 49:37
  kid what your dad did for you.
• 49:39
  And I think this is just a key
• 49:42
  moment for you, and I'm really
• 49:44
  happy that you had that
• 49:45
  moment, because it feels like
• 49:46
  without it, where do you think
• 49:47
  you'd
• 49:47
  Will Aitken: be today? Maybe
• 49:48
  trying my best learner trade
• 49:49
  by I'm a clumsy man. It
• 49:50
  definitely just did change my
• 49:52
  life, and I think that also
• 49:53
  speaks volumes to the quality
• 49:54
  of the managers that I had. I
• 49:55
  give them a lot of credit,
• 49:56
  well, I don't give them enough
• 49:58
  credit. Should I say, Well,
• 49:59
  Mark Ackers: you've given them
• 49:59
  a shout. I hear, what would
• 50:01
  you say if someone's listening
• 50:02
  to this and like I say, I
• 50:04
  think most people listen to
• 50:05
  this podcast that they're
• 50:06
  ahead of that part already
• 50:07
  because they are actively
• 50:09
  seeking sales collateral, but
• 50:11
  perhaps they are going for a
• 50:12
  rut. They are blaming other
• 50:15
  things. They are blaming and
• 50:16
  pointing out, and they're
• 50:18
  maybe not as open to coaching
• 50:20
  and learning that they should
• 50:22
  be what advice would you give
• 50:23
  to them?
• 50:24
  Will Aitken: What can you do?
• 50:25
  Like what can you do, both in
• 50:27
  actions and in learning right
• 50:30
  now, they are always something
• 50:32
  in your control. Excuses are
• 50:34
  very toxic. I also don't like
• 50:35
  people who are saying no
• 50:36
  excuses, because I think that
• 50:37
  leaves room for a lot of
• 50:38
  prejudice as well. But
• 50:40
  especially in sales,
• 50:41
  accountability is vital, and
• 50:43
  knowing that I didn't have for
• 50:45
  a long time, it was really
• 50:47
  hurting me not having so wake
• 50:48
  up. You may have taken a job
• 50:49
  that it wasn't everything I
• 50:50
  promised, but be accountable
• 50:52
  for the fact you accepted that
• 50:53
  job. The emails might not be
• 50:54
  getting opened. Okay, be
• 50:55
  accountable for what can you
• 50:56
  do? Can you make calls? No
• 50:57
  one's picking up the phone.
• 50:58
  Okay? Have you made enough
• 50:59
  calls? Have you tried calling
• 51:00
  other numbers? There's always
• 51:01
  something you can do. You can
• 51:03
  do. And if you just say, I am
• 51:04
  in decision of this, I'm in
• 51:05
  the control of this one, then
• 51:07
  you start figuring out the
• 51:08
  answers to those and knowing
• 51:09
  what you can do, instead of
• 51:10
  Mark Ackers: complaining about
• 51:11
  what you accountability is
• 51:12
  such a key word will and
• 51:13
  actually, that's what coaching
• 51:14
  provides, being accountable
• 51:15
  and and I think this is the
• 51:17
  thing that, again, lots of
• 51:19
  people will just resonate
• 51:20
  with. How many times have you
• 51:22
  read something in a book,
• 51:23
  watched something on maybe a
• 51:25
  video podcast, listened to
• 51:27
  something, heard something and
• 51:29
  thought, well, great idea, but
• 51:31
  then done nothing with it. And
• 51:32
  it's because you're not
• 51:33
  accountable. And that really
• 51:34
  is what a great coach does.
• 51:36
  It's where are you today? And
• 51:38
  it sounds like this is what
• 51:39
  your boss is. Where are you
• 51:40
  today? Will I know where you
• 51:41
  can get to? Do you want to get
• 51:43
  there as well? Because if you
• 51:44
  want that, that's great. If
• 51:45
  you don't, we can't want more
• 51:46
  for you than what you want for
• 51:47
  yourself, but we see where you
• 51:48
  want to get to. What are the
• 51:49
  goals then? Okay? And now,
• 51:51
  every time they meet you, it
• 51:52
  is about, have you achieved
• 51:53
  what you want to achieve? If
• 51:54
  you haven't, why not? What are
• 51:56
  the reasons? Let's break them
• 51:58
  down, and what you're bringing
• 51:59
  to the table is, well, I'm
• 52:01
  going to point inwards. What
• 52:02
  can I control? I can control
• 52:04
  showing up. I can control
• 52:05
  being coachable. I can control
• 52:07
  my work rate. What I need from
• 52:09
  you is the guidance, and I
• 52:10
  don't know what I don't know.
• 52:11
  And it's like a perfect
• 52:12
  marriage between a really
• 52:14
  hands on coach that can see
• 52:15
  the potential, agrees with you
• 52:17
  where you want to get to, and
• 52:19
  works with you on a cadence
• 52:20
  that's not about the number,
• 52:22
  not about KPIs. It's about
• 52:24
  actual sales acumen, sales
• 52:26
  skills, and you're there,
• 52:28
  hungry for it, and so
• 52:31
  coachable, which, which is why
• 52:33
  you've managed to go on to
• 52:34
  have the career that you have
• 52:35
  had. But accountability is at
• 52:37
  the root of coaching, and if
• 52:39
  you're not accountable, it's
• 52:40
  very, very hard to achieve
• 52:42
  those goals. And for anyone
• 52:43
  that's thinking, Well, where
• 52:44
  do I start accountability?
• 52:45
  Journaling is the place be
• 52:47
  accountable to yourself. I
• 52:50
  know people that just every
• 52:52
  day write down a few things
• 52:54
  that they want to achieve, and
• 52:55
  at the end of the day, have
• 52:56
  they achieved it or not? It
• 52:57
  takes a couple of minutes. I
• 52:58
  will give a shout out to Steve
• 53:00
  Myers, one of the coaches of
• 53:02
  my sales coach, who's got his
• 53:03
  own bagels. He calls it and I
• 53:06
  won't do it justice once I
• 53:08
  can't remember it, but it
• 53:09
  stands for different things
• 53:11
  about what you're looking to
• 53:12
  achieve. But journaling is a
• 53:15
  great way to start
• 53:16
  accountability. Then then a
• 53:17
  coach,
• 53:18
  Will Aitken: yeah, yeah. No.
• 53:18
  It just sounds like you and I
• 53:20
  have similar things, similar
• 53:22
  things I found to do list
• 53:23
  journaling, but also getting
• 53:24
  your feelings down there keeps
• 53:25
  yourself aware and causes you
• 53:27
  to make sure that you don't
• 53:28
  get that ego back as well.
• 53:30
  Because you gotta, you gotta
• 53:32
  be keeping real of yourself.
• 53:33
  Mark Ackers: So start to build
• 53:34
  this exciting career that you
• 53:36
  are and that you've gone on
• 53:38
  where you are. Now let's start
• 53:39
  with sales feed under Vidyard
• 53:41
  now independent. Just give us
• 53:43
  the headlines. What is it?
• 53:44
  How'd it come about?
• 53:45
  Will Aitken: Ironically, after
• 53:46
  all this, after dropping the
• 53:47
  ego, my ego made me leave that
• 53:49
  company, because I went out
• 53:50
  drinking with some other
• 53:51
  account executives at the
• 53:52
  company. We all got talking,
• 53:54
  and as I told you, I'd been
• 53:55
  the first rep to really even
• 53:56
  hit quota yet alone, several
• 53:58
  months in a row. And I found
• 53:59
  out that I knew they were they
• 54:01
  had the senior candidates
• 54:02
  title, but they were being
• 54:03
  paid much more aggressive,
• 54:04
  both accelerators and a base
• 54:05
  salary, and that made me
• 54:06
  bitter and hurt. So I went to
• 54:09
  my manager and said, Give me
• 54:10
  the promotion. I've earned it.
• 54:11
  And he didn't. So although I
• 54:13
  had completely never, wouldn't
• 54:14
  even consider leaving, because
• 54:15
  I didn't get my instant
• 54:17
  gratification from that.
• 54:18
  Because even honest, the
• 54:19
  things he said to me is, well,
• 54:20
  there's no doubt you've earned
• 54:21
  it from a sales performance
• 54:22
  standpoint, but if you want to
• 54:23
  be a senior thing, you've got
• 54:24
  to be an example for the team.
• 54:26
  And you show up on calls
• 54:27
  sometimes and you're immature,
• 54:28
  and you show up at cool
• 54:29
  sometimes, and you don't
• 54:30
  communicate, or think about
• 54:31
  the way you'll communicate.
• 54:32
  And I heard that, and I was
• 54:33
  like, you're just giving me an
• 54:33
  excuse because you don't want
• 54:34
  to pay me more, versus
• 54:35
  actually. And it's funny,
• 54:36
  because that was that was
• 54:37
  coaching, that was feedback,
• 54:38
  but I didn't take it because I
• 54:39
  was coming from a place of
• 54:40
  emotion. So although I'd
• 54:41
  actually shot down the idea of
• 54:42
  working video, especially once
• 54:44
  I found out that was actually
• 54:45
  a marketing job, EO marketing,
• 54:46
  no sales for life, when I then
• 54:48
  had this, this kind of chip on
• 54:49
  my shoulder that I hadn't got
• 54:51
  the promotion I wanted. So
• 54:52
  when took the interview, and
• 54:53
  at this point, this is when
• 54:54
  I'd started posting stuff on
• 54:55
  LinkedIn, because, as I
• 54:56
  mentioned, I moved to a new
• 54:57
  city, I didn't really have
• 54:58
  that many friends, and. And I
• 55:00
  wanted something to do, so I
• 55:01
  started making these videos,
• 55:02
  just sharing what I was
• 55:03
  learning in my day to day
• 55:04
  sales, but also making some
• 55:05
  skits and things that were
• 55:06
  like almost laughing through
• 55:07
  the pain of like the deals I
• 55:08
  did lose like it. I thought
• 55:10
  everyone must feel this, you
• 55:11
  know. So I started making
• 55:12
  these funny pieces of content
• 55:13
  as well. Got on the this, uh,
• 55:14
  Tyler sods radar, and he
• 55:15
  wanted to bring someone in who
• 55:17
  actually understood the sales
• 55:18
  owners create content full
• 55:19
  time. So when I started
• 55:20
  talking to him, and he said,
• 55:21
  Yeah, this role will pay this.
• 55:23
  And the base salary for the
• 55:25
  role was about the same as my
• 55:27
  ote. I was over performing, so
• 55:29
  it was less, technically than
• 55:30
  the motel amount I was
• 55:31
  earning. But it was a
• 55:32
  marketing position, and it was
• 55:33
  full base. So I was thinking
• 55:34
  to myself, hang on, I would
• 55:35
  get paid this and not have to
• 55:37
  deal with, like, the end of
• 55:39
  quota anxiety, end of quarter
• 55:41
  anxiety, end of month anxiety.
• 55:42
  I'm like, hang on a second.
• 55:43
  And because I was still home
• 55:44
  from ego, I was like, You know
• 55:45
  what? I'm open to it. And it
• 55:46
  was offering a job that was
• 55:48
  basically my hobby at the
• 55:49
  time. Was what I was doing for
• 55:50
  fun. They wanted me to do that
• 55:51
  full time, so I took
• 55:52
  Mark Ackers: it, and really,
• 55:52
  that's been a big turning
• 55:54
  point for you. Well, a week
• 55:55
  Will Aitken: later, I then got
• 55:56
  promotion, right? But I was
• 55:58
  net interviewing, and I was, I
• 55:59
  was
• 55:59
  Mark Ackers: hooked. Talk to
• 56:00
  me a little bit about what it
• 56:01
  takes to create funny content.
• 56:03
  Where I
• 56:03
  Will Aitken: found the most
• 56:04
  success is one journaling,
• 56:05
  because things happen to us
• 56:07
  all day that are hilarious or
• 56:08
  other people can relate to.
• 56:09
  And when you're in sales,
• 56:11
  other sellers could as well,
• 56:12
  right? So being aware,
• 56:13
  thinking about those, but then
• 56:14
  also sometimes just saying the
• 56:15
  quiet part out loud. We spoke
• 56:16
  earlier about prospects who
• 56:17
  give you the run around, and
• 56:18
  you just do everything they
• 56:19
  say, and then they end up
• 56:20
  ghosting you because they got
• 56:21
  all the information they need,
• 56:23
  and then they got a lower
• 56:24
  price point. That's where. Or
• 56:25
  they weren't ever really
• 56:26
  serious about buying in the
• 56:27
  first place, or they were just
• 56:28
  using you to get a price to
• 56:29
  beat down one of your
• 56:30
  competitors. Of these posts I
• 56:31
  was speaking to three months
• 56:32
  ago, you know, like those
• 56:33
  things are things that happen
• 56:34
  to every seller, right? Every
• 56:36
  seller has felt those so if
• 56:37
  you can point that out and say
• 56:38
  it, or even make light of it
• 56:40
  sometimes, then I think that
• 56:42
  makes people nod and go, Oh my
• 56:44
  God, that's so true. I think
• 56:46
  that's normally where my mind
• 56:47
  goes.
• 56:47
  Mark Ackers: And has humour
• 56:48
  always been your way of sort
• 56:50
  of connecting with people?
• 56:51
  Yes, when you're creating that
• 56:52
  content, what do you do when
• 56:54
  you put it out? It flops.
• 56:55
  Will Aitken: Learn it didn't
• 56:57
  hit. That's okay. What can I
• 56:58
  learn from that? I there?
• 57:00
  There have been ebbs and
• 57:01
  flows. And here's the
• 57:02
  challenge again, because
• 57:03
  social media that that became
• 57:04
  my entire life, it was my work
• 57:06
  now, and you cannot control
• 57:08
  algorithms and things. What
• 57:10
  can you control again? It
• 57:11
  comes back to accountability.
• 57:12
  But I'm not gonna lie, this
• 57:13
  has been a challenge in the
• 57:14
  past. What's been like four
• 57:16
  years where I've been doing
• 57:17
  this so much on growing online
• 57:19
  and doing it for myself and
• 57:20
  other people? Like, there were
• 57:21
  times where, like, I'm like,
• 57:22
  I'm realising that. I've had
• 57:23
  to realise and I've had to get
• 57:25
  out of the idea of chasing
• 57:26
  validation. Because what you
• 57:27
  said earlier the world today
• 57:28
  on social media especially, is
• 57:29
  there's instant validation
• 57:30
  everywhere you go when you
• 57:31
  don't get it or you get too
• 57:33
  attached to it, well, when you
• 57:34
  don't get it, you're going to
• 57:35
  be miserable, and that's not a
• 57:36
  good place to attach any level
• 57:37
  of your self worth. So look at
• 57:38
  what you can if something
• 57:39
  flops is not necessarily
• 57:41
  because if they didn't do well
• 57:43
  as well, it wasn't a great
• 57:44
  idea. But like, over time, you
• 57:45
  can't do it based on one
• 57:46
  thing. Like you have to look
• 57:47
  at the broader picture. How we
• 57:48
  look at how's that theme or
• 57:50
  type of content performing
• 57:51
  overall, not just that one
• 57:52
  piece. It sound like going,
• 57:53
  Oh, that cool flopped. I suck
• 57:54
  at cold calling. But no, look
• 57:56
  at all the calls. What's the
• 57:57
  what's the common themes?
• 57:58
  That's when you need to start
• 58:00
  looking into what to fix right
• 58:01
  similar, similar things that
• 58:02
  you can look at
• 58:03
  Mark Ackers: there. What I
• 58:04
  really love about that,
• 58:05
  though, is straight West. It's
• 58:06
  learn, like, learn wide and
• 58:07
  and actually, what you said
• 58:08
  towards the end as well, it
• 58:09
  didn't flop, and I was
• 58:10
  purposely provocative with the
• 58:12
  word flop, but it didn't flop,
• 58:14
  it just didn't quite land.
• 58:15
  Like, the algorithm didn't
• 58:16
  quite like it that day. Maybe,
• 58:17
  like, I've got to learn about
• 58:18
  when I'm posting it, or the
• 58:20
  hook, etc. But here's the
• 58:21
  thing, so many people are
• 58:23
  still not well, you know, 99%
• 58:25
  of people on LinkedIn aren't
• 58:27
  posting. But those that do and
• 58:29
  do it well, like you are able
• 58:31
  to create big brands and
• 58:33
  followings and off the back,
• 58:34
  but you've got to put yourself
• 58:35
  out there. And it's not always
• 58:36
  gonna it's not always gonna
• 58:37
  work. You've had a job, and
• 58:40
  this is when I first really
• 58:42
  feel like you come on my sort
• 58:43
  of radar, so to speak, was
• 58:45
  lavender. When you're head of
• 58:47
  social there, tell me what was
• 58:48
  the brief when you took that
• 58:49
  Will Aitken: role twice the
• 58:50
  money for the same job that
• 58:51
  that was, that was the main
• 58:52
  thing. That was
• 58:53
  Mark Ackers: a driver for
• 58:54
  taking it. What was the brief?
• 58:55
  Will Aitken: Brief? We want
• 58:56
  you to do more of what you've
• 58:57
  been doing with salespeople,
• 58:59
  but for lavender. And I said,
• 59:01
  No, I love it here. I have an
• 59:02
  amazing manager who I get
• 59:04
  along with, who trusts me, who
• 59:05
  still is willing to coach and
• 59:07
  teach me in the place where I
• 59:08
  need it, but for the most
• 59:09
  part, fully believes in me and
• 59:11
  took a risk on me. And then
• 59:12
  they went, Yeah, but you know
• 59:13
  how much this pays? And I'm
• 59:14
  like, oh. And then I also had
• 59:15
  a friend who had literally
• 59:16
  just started working there,
• 59:17
  Janell and Knuth, and we'd
• 59:19
  become very good friends just
• 59:20
  from living with him alive,
• 59:21
  she'd become like an
• 59:22
  evangelist. A challenger, I
• 59:23
  think, at the time. And we
• 59:24
  were kind of talking about
• 59:25
  how, how we make sure that
• 59:26
  this growing, these brands
• 59:27
  actually drives revenue, and
• 59:28
  we would like share ideas,
• 59:29
  etc, and they wanted me to do
• 59:31
  more of the same thing that I
• 59:32
  didn't even say it has to get
• 59:33
  better in any way. It's still
• 59:34
  already great. That was
• 59:35
  Mark Ackers: the proof. What
• 59:35
  would you say when you think
• 59:37
  about that role growth, head
• 59:39
  of social it feels like from
• 59:41
  the outside, there must be so
• 59:42
  much fun. What's it really
• 59:43
  like having that
• 59:44
  Will Aitken: role? I didn't
• 59:44
  enjoy it. I It wasn't the same
• 59:46
  as what I've been doing. And
• 59:47
  the reasons why I enjoyed what
• 59:48
  I'd been doing were no longer
• 59:49
  reasons. And then you've got
• 59:51
  different people with
• 59:52
  different expectations and
• 59:53
  different management and
• 59:54
  different opinions as well. I
• 59:55
  think there was, at that point
• 59:57
  I'd been doing it for long
• 59:58
  enough where I knew I was good
• 59:59
  at it. You know? And I was
• 1:00:00
  getting a lot of validation,
• 1:00:01
  both from online and
• 1:00:02
  compliments and stuff and
• 1:00:04
  performance and growth than
• 1:00:05
  the brand I had been managing
• 1:00:06
  and my own brand as well. I
• 1:00:08
  thought I was just the best,
• 1:00:09
  already, the best person who
• 1:00:10
  could ever be in that role. So
• 1:00:11
  I had ego, then I also had new
• 1:00:13
  challenges, people who also
• 1:00:15
  had ego, who had opinions, et
• 1:00:16
  cetera. And that was probably
• 1:00:18
  the biggest challenge. And I
• 1:00:19
  stopped learning for sure for
• 1:00:20
  a period of time there. And I
• 1:00:21
  went like 2020 2023. Is
• 1:00:24
  probably the worst year of my
• 1:00:25
  entire life, because I didn't
• 1:00:26
  believe in what I was doing. I
• 1:00:27
  wasn't learning anymore. I had
• 1:00:28
  stopped. I thought I was King
• 1:00:29
  hot shit. And it affected my
• 1:00:32
  life, not just personally,
• 1:00:33
  professionally, but in my
• 1:00:34
  personal life as well. I lost
• 1:00:35
  friends that year, you know,
• 1:00:36
  because I just had this aura
• 1:00:38
  about me that I thought I was
• 1:00:39
  too good, too successful,
• 1:00:40
  making more money than I ever
• 1:00:41
  thought I had, getting all
• 1:00:42
  this external validation
• 1:00:44
  deeply. I'd stopped getting
• 1:00:45
  better. I'd stop learning, and
• 1:00:46
  I wasn't doing
• 1:00:47
  Mark Ackers: work. I actually
• 1:00:47
  believed in it. How have you
• 1:00:48
  become so self aware you do
• 1:00:49
  you strike me as someone
• 1:00:50
  that's just so aware of where
• 1:00:52
  you've gone wrong, the
• 1:00:53
  mistakes that you've made, the
• 1:00:55
  ego that you've had, and
• 1:00:56
  that's obviously not who you
• 1:00:57
  are today. How have you become
• 1:00:58
  so self aware? Because so many
• 1:01:01
  people aren't
• 1:01:02
  Will Aitken: I think it's an
• 1:01:02
  ongoing thing. There are still
• 1:01:03
  things that I've I'm aware of
• 1:01:05
  today that I wasn't aware of
• 1:01:06
  last week, and it's
• 1:01:07
  willingness to be wrong, I
• 1:01:09
  think. And you get kind of
• 1:01:10
  good at it once you've kind of
• 1:01:11
  started seeing patterns in
• 1:01:12
  your past, behaviour, like,
• 1:01:13
  what am I not seeing today
• 1:01:14
  that I will think about in
• 1:01:15
  three years? And also, like,
• 1:01:16
  You're not meant to do it
• 1:01:17
  alone as well. Whether it's a
• 1:01:18
  partner, a boss, a coach, a
• 1:01:19
  therapist, those people are
• 1:01:21
  there to help you get to those
• 1:01:22
  answers as well, and that's
• 1:01:23
  why it's important to work on
• 1:01:24
  yourself, be there for
• 1:01:25
  yourself, who coaches you
• 1:01:26
  today. Mainly, this is
• 1:01:28
  something that I realised
• 1:01:29
  recently that I want and I
• 1:01:30
  miss, because most of the work
• 1:01:33
  I've done on developing myself
• 1:01:35
  has been with more like
• 1:01:36
  counsellors, therapists and
• 1:01:38
  other types of the folks like
• 1:01:39
  that. I became very focused on
• 1:01:40
  being a boss again, but I
• 1:01:41
  still surround myself with
• 1:01:43
  people who I do believe are
• 1:01:44
  smarter than me and can point
• 1:01:45
  out where I'm going wrong, but
• 1:01:47
  I certainly haven't been as
• 1:01:48
  actively coached today as I
• 1:01:49
  would be, and that's why I'm
• 1:01:50
  actually doing some some
• 1:01:52
  things about that as well. I
• 1:01:54
  will say that while writing
• 1:01:55
  this book with Keenan, which
• 1:01:57
  will be the prequel to gap
• 1:01:58
  prospecting, which, as I
• 1:01:59
  mentioned earlier, is a book
• 1:02:00
  that means a lot to me,
• 1:02:01
  because it was a lot to me,
• 1:02:02
  because it was a big turning
• 1:02:03
  point in my career. I've
• 1:02:04
  learned a great deal from deal
• 1:02:05
  with deal from him, and he's
• 1:02:06
  been willing to coach me
• 1:02:07
  essentially while we've gone
• 1:02:08
  through that process together.
• 1:02:10
  What amazing
• 1:02:10
  Mark Ackers: coach to have,
• 1:02:12
  right?
• 1:02:12
  Will Aitken: And I'd end with
• 1:02:13
  pay him.
• 1:02:14
  Mark Ackers: What can you tell
• 1:02:15
  us about this book that you're
• 1:02:16
  working on? Yes,
• 1:02:17
  Will Aitken: so I always
• 1:02:19
  wanted to write something. I
• 1:02:21
  enjoy writing. I want I know
• 1:02:23
  that feeling that I had when I
• 1:02:25
  first had the click moment.
• 1:02:27
  You know, I thought sales was
• 1:02:28
  a numbers game. I thought I
• 1:02:29
  was just getting lucky. I
• 1:02:30
  didn't realise it was a skill.
• 1:02:32
  I thought there are some
• 1:02:33
  people out there who haven't
• 1:02:34
  had that moment yet, and
• 1:02:35
  that's the type of person I
• 1:02:36
  want to help. And the thing
• 1:02:37
  that helped me was reading a
• 1:02:39
  book that was actually really,
• 1:02:40
  it wasn't just like, do this,
• 1:02:41
  ask this question. In fact,
• 1:02:43
  when you read that book, it
• 1:02:44
  doesn't really spell out what
• 1:02:45
  exactly you should do in
• 1:02:46
  discovery. Just kind of breaks
• 1:02:47
  out the mindset of, like,
• 1:02:48
  effective discovery. I'd argue
• 1:02:49
  your book is much more
• 1:02:50
  prescriptive, right? But like,
• 1:02:52
  the storytelling and it helped
• 1:02:53
  me turn the pages and actually
• 1:02:54
  get it in a way, you know, I
• 1:02:55
  mean, and I thought, okay, how
• 1:02:56
  can I do that for the other
• 1:02:58
  part of sales that I didn't
• 1:02:59
  feel? How can something that
• 1:03:01
  good be possible for earlier
• 1:03:02
  in the process, where I found
• 1:03:03
  myself spending a lot of time
• 1:03:04
  thinking about and talking
• 1:03:05
  about prospecting. So I hit
• 1:03:07
  Keenan and said, you wanna
• 1:03:08
  write book? He said, No, I was
• 1:03:09
  a year and a half ago. And
• 1:03:10
  then hit him up again and
• 1:03:11
  again and again, and I
• 1:03:12
  prospected the shit, living
• 1:03:13
  shit out, and then I probably
• 1:03:14
  did some gap song on him. And
• 1:03:15
  somewhere along the way there
• 1:03:16
  where I asked him some
• 1:03:17
  questions about his business
• 1:03:18
  and what he wanted to do, and
• 1:03:19
  never finally gotten to agree
• 1:03:21
  to agree to it, because I
• 1:03:22
  felt, I felt like I didn't
• 1:03:23
  have all the answers, and I
• 1:03:25
  also didn't feel like I had
• 1:03:26
  the ability to put it in such
• 1:03:28
  a compelling story as the
• 1:03:29
  first time I touched that
• 1:03:30
  book, and now, boy, this thing
• 1:03:31
  is, it's coming along. Nice.
• 1:03:32
  It's so good to read. It's
• 1:03:33
  like, almost like a novel, you
• 1:03:35
  know, that's, that's, I think,
• 1:03:36
  what, well, what I like about
• 1:03:37
  that? And I think there's a
• 1:03:38
  place for both types of book
• 1:03:39
  or content, so in the mix,
• 1:03:40
  you've moved you or something
• 1:03:42
  that helps you do something,
• 1:03:44
  you know, and, yeah, so, yeah,
• 1:03:45
  that's, that's the book. It's
• 1:03:46
  going to be gap prospect, you
• 1:03:47
  coming out this fall, if
• 1:03:48
  everything still goes to plan,
• 1:03:49
  but it's looking like it's
• 1:03:50
  going to definitely happen in
• 1:03:51
  probably September. I was
• 1:03:52
  Mark Ackers: going to say
• 1:03:53
  that's, that's when you know,
• 1:03:54
  you've been Americanized when
• 1:03:55
  you say it's coming out in the
• 1:03:56
  Will Aitken: fall. Oh my God.
• 1:03:57
  I said autumn. I'm sorry.
• 1:04:01
  Mark Ackers: Whenever I hear
• 1:04:01
  fall, I remember being a kid,
• 1:04:03
  being frustrated whenever I
• 1:04:04
  was in the cinema and the
• 1:04:05
  trailer be coming out, as for
• 1:04:06
  when is that? When is this
• 1:04:08
  film coming
• 1:04:09
  Will Aitken: out? The crappy
• 1:04:10
  thing is, I've adopted that
• 1:04:11
  word, but I don't say it the
• 1:04:12
  same as all of them as well,
• 1:04:13
  because they say fall, yeah.
• 1:04:14
  And I say fall. You know, I
• 1:04:16
  think northerners are probably
• 1:04:18
  somewhere in the middle, but
• 1:04:19
  depending on where you're
• 1:04:20
  from, if you're if you're a
• 1:04:22
  man, I think you'd say fall,
• 1:04:23
  yeah, like halfway between. So
• 1:04:25
  Mark Ackers: let's recap a
• 1:04:27
  book with Keenan gap
• 1:04:28
  prospecting the prequel to a
• 1:04:30
  book that fundamentally
• 1:04:32
  changed the structure of your
• 1:04:33
  career. Incredible will, and
• 1:04:35
  this is because you've had an
• 1:04:36
  idea, you've made it happen.
• 1:04:39
  You've used what you've
• 1:04:40
  learned in your career to
• 1:04:41
  prospect someone to make it
• 1:04:43
  happen and and this is why
• 1:04:45
  I've loved about talking to
• 1:04:47
  you, is shits not always gone
• 1:04:48
  the way you want it to go, but
• 1:04:50
  you've always looked at, what
• 1:04:51
  can I do, what can I control?
• 1:04:53
  And you've made it happen. And
• 1:04:54
  I think you're so self aware.
• 1:04:56
  So let's talk about where
• 1:04:57
  you're at now the business.
• 1:04:59
  Well, I. Linkedin.com. Is what
• 1:05:01
  it says on LinkedIn as well as
• 1:05:03
  a great title, but ultimately
• 1:05:05
  it says you're running the
• 1:05:06
  business, coaching, training,
• 1:05:08
  keynotes, content. Tell me
• 1:05:10
  what's what's the mission.
• 1:05:11
  That's something
• 1:05:11
  Will Aitken: that I'm kind of
• 1:05:12
  in the middle of figuring out
• 1:05:13
  right now. A bit more in
• 1:05:15
  depth, I did find that I I've
• 1:05:17
  lost that as a couple of times
• 1:05:18
  over the past year, since
• 1:05:19
  running my business as well,
• 1:05:20
  where, you know, you fall
• 1:05:21
  into, back into old habits,
• 1:05:22
  chasing validation, etc, as
• 1:05:24
  well. The most impactful
• 1:05:25
  thing, and I'm certain you can
• 1:05:26
  relate to this that I've been
• 1:05:27
  able to do since I started my
• 1:05:29
  business is definitely not the
• 1:05:30
  thing that made me the most
• 1:05:31
  money, but it was just the
• 1:05:32
  little part of my page that
• 1:05:33
  said book a one on one
• 1:05:34
  coaching call. Because you
• 1:05:35
  know what that does, that
• 1:05:36
  attracts people who are ready
• 1:05:37
  to learn, who want to work on
• 1:05:39
  themselves, the best types of
• 1:05:40
  people and those conversations
• 1:05:42
  and getting better at
• 1:05:43
  coaching, which is a skill now
• 1:05:44
  that I need to work on being a
• 1:05:45
  better coach, because I've
• 1:05:46
  never done that before as much
• 1:05:47
  until I start offering it, and
• 1:05:49
  then people start booking, and
• 1:05:50
  then I'm just like that. I
• 1:05:51
  need to get better at that
• 1:05:52
  piece that has been the most
• 1:05:53
  fulfilling part of my work by
• 1:05:55
  far, because you get to see
• 1:05:56
  these people, and you take no
• 1:05:57
  credit for it as well. It's
• 1:05:59
  them, but the right people
• 1:06:00
  show up to that, the right
• 1:06:01
  people seek it out, and then
• 1:06:02
  the right people actually go
• 1:06:03
  ahead and do the work. And
• 1:06:04
  when you help them to get
• 1:06:05
  there, they often see the
• 1:06:06
  results. And that is just
• 1:06:07
  feels good, man. So that's
• 1:06:09
  been the most fulfilling
• 1:06:09
  thing. So I'm now figuring out
• 1:06:11
  how I could do more of that
• 1:06:12
  without going broke, because
• 1:06:13
  selling one on one, coaching
• 1:06:15
  by the hour. I mean,
• 1:06:16
  therapists do it, but it's
• 1:06:18
  also not as scalable as I'd
• 1:06:19
  like, so I'm still trying to
• 1:06:20
  figure that part out, but
• 1:06:21
  that's where I'm thinking. I
• 1:06:22
  want to spend thinking, I want
• 1:06:23
  to spend
• 1:06:24
  Mark Ackers: more time.
• 1:06:24
  Gotcha, what is the most
• 1:06:25
  common bit of advice people
• 1:06:27
  ask you for help on
• 1:06:27
  Will Aitken: a lot of job, a
• 1:06:29
  lot of work, like, I want to
• 1:06:30
  get promoted. I want to get I
• 1:06:31
  want to get a job in this but
• 1:06:33
  funnily enough, most people
• 1:06:34
  come to me with when they've
• 1:06:35
  got something new going on.
• 1:06:36
  The best thing about coaching
• 1:06:37
  is when you can help someone
• 1:06:39
  get to the answer themselves.
• 1:06:40
  So sometimes someone comes to
• 1:06:41
  you with what they think is
• 1:06:42
  the problem, like they go, Oh,
• 1:06:43
  this deal or this thing isn't
• 1:06:44
  working, but then you can
• 1:06:45
  almost help them collect that.
• 1:06:47
  So most people come to me one
• 1:06:48
  thing, but it's not really the
• 1:06:49
  true issue. So it's either
• 1:06:50
  like a new initiative or
• 1:06:51
  ongoing prospect, or I've got
• 1:06:52
  this new job and I want to hit
• 1:06:53
  the ground running, but it's
• 1:06:54
  like there's actually
• 1:06:55
  something else there
• 1:06:56
  underneath a lot of the time.
• 1:06:57
  So when someone comes to me
• 1:06:58
  like, there's this deal I
• 1:06:59
  really want to move forward.
• 1:07:00
  I'm like, Okay, let's unpack
• 1:07:02
  that. I can tell you
• 1:07:03
  immediately 10 things you
• 1:07:04
  could try to move this deal
• 1:07:05
  forward, but like, let's walk
• 1:07:06
  back on that a little bit. And
• 1:07:07
  that's when you see people
• 1:07:08
  Mark Ackers: start to get way
• 1:07:09
  better as well. And again,
• 1:07:10
  being a great coach, you're
• 1:07:11
  not connected to the outcome,
• 1:07:12
  because it's them, like you
• 1:07:13
  say, and you don't need the
• 1:07:15
  need for approval, because
• 1:07:16
  they're already coming to you
• 1:07:17
  for the health and guidance.
• 1:07:18
  You can ask those questions to
• 1:07:20
  get to where you need to get
• 1:07:21
  to. But then, like you say,
• 1:07:23
  it's not about telling them,
• 1:07:24
  it's, I love that. I love the
• 1:07:26
  analogy of the movie
• 1:07:27
  Inception. Have you ever seen
• 1:07:28
  it? So sometimes what you need
• 1:07:30
  to do is, is give them the
• 1:07:31
  seeds so they feel like the
• 1:07:33
  idea is actually grown in
• 1:07:34
  their own head. Yes. And
• 1:07:35
  that's that's when an idea
• 1:07:37
  becomes really powerful. I
• 1:07:38
  have genuinely love this chat.
• 1:07:41
  I know anybody that's
• 1:07:42
  listening to it will feel the
• 1:07:43
  same. We've had some amazing
• 1:07:44
  guests be open, honest, but I
• 1:07:46
  think this is one of, if not
• 1:07:48
  the most open, honest and
• 1:07:50
  rawest of conversations that I
• 1:07:52
  think so many people are going
• 1:07:54
  to listen to and have that
• 1:07:55
  either that's me or that light
• 1:07:57
  bulb moment of bloody hell
• 1:07:59
  that is, that is me. I didn't
• 1:08:00
  realise it. People could
• 1:08:01
  obviously find you on
• 1:08:02
  LinkedIn. People can look for
• 1:08:04
  your book that's not out for
• 1:08:06
  pre order right now, I'm
• 1:08:06
  guessing, given that this
• 1:08:09
  Will Aitken: corn, there is a
• 1:08:10
  link, or if you just go to my
• 1:08:12
  newsletter page, I will be
• 1:08:14
  sending out updates and pre
• 1:08:15
  reads of that as
• 1:08:16
  Mark Ackers: well. There we
• 1:08:16
  go. I'd love, well, I'll buy a
• 1:08:19
  copy when that comes out. I'm
• 1:08:20
  looking forward to reading
• 1:08:21
  that, and
• 1:08:21
  Will Aitken: I sent you one
• 1:08:22
  mate. Oh, well, I didn't want
• 1:08:24
  to hint, but if I bought your
• 1:08:25
  first book, but you sent me a
• 1:08:26
  second book for free, so I owe
• 1:08:27
  you now. Okay, well, the first
• 1:08:29
  book was a good read. It was
• 1:08:30
  well worth the money. So thank
• 1:08:31
  you. Thanks very much.
• 1:08:33
  Mark Ackers: Well, yeah, I
• 1:08:34
  just want to end it there and
• 1:08:35
  say thank you so much. That's
• 1:08:36
  kind of what I'm getting to
• 1:08:37
  thank you. And you know,
• 1:08:39
  anytime that you're over in
• 1:08:41
  the UK, let's definitely meet
• 1:08:42
  up. Keep in touch. Well done,
• 1:08:44
  mate. Thank you. You.