Latest / The Lila Rose Show / E195: The Best Case for Christ w/Dr. Sean McDowell

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E195: The Best Case for Christ w/Dr. Sean McDowell · The Lila Rose Show

• 0:00
  If Christians are just inventing the story, why do you invent
• 0:03
  that dishonorable death for your founder?
• 0:06
  Dozens of former Muslims who become Christians?
• 0:09
  There is some kind of supernatural vision or dream
• 0:12
  that they have. How have you seen Muslim
• 0:15
  converts to Christianity overcome that foundational
• 0:17
  objection about Jesus Christ as crucified God?
• 0:20
  I've asked 100 of the top Christian apologists would they
• 0:24
  consider the best argument for the existence of God?
• 0:28
  What would you say are the two biggest differences between the
• 0:31
  Christian God and the Muslim God?
• 0:33
  Have you ever just read the gospel of Mark or John and asked
• 0:37
  yourself who is this person Jesus?
• 0:42
  Welcome back to the Lila Rose Show.
• 0:44
  All right guys, we have a treat today.
• 0:46
  I'm sitting down with my friend and someone that I admire very
• 0:48
  much, Doctor Sean McDowell, who's a PhD in apologetics over
• 0:53
  at the Talbot School at Biola. I hope I said that right.
• 0:55
  I'm going to correct. He's going to correct me if I'm
• 0:57
  wrong here. That's a graduate program at
• 0:59
  Biola to teach apologetics. Anyways, he's doing amazing
• 1:02
  stuff on YouTube, a lot of stuff with regard to reaching out to
• 1:06
  non believers or non Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, people from
• 1:10
  academia who might be agnostic or atheist.
• 1:12
  He has some really phenomenal approaches to Christian
• 1:15
  apologetics. So this is going to be a really
• 1:18
  great primer for anybody listening about making the basic
• 1:21
  case for God, for Jesus Christ and doing it to people that are
• 1:24
  maybe from a completely different worldview.
• 1:27
  Hope you enjoy this episode and don't forget to subscribe.
• 1:30
  A lot of you are still not subscribed.
• 1:31
  I think it's over 80%. Click that subscribe button,
• 1:34
  ring that notification bell and we will see you at every
• 1:37
  episode. It's going to be so much fun.
• 1:39
  Doctor Sean McDowell, thank you for joining the podcast.
• 1:42
  It's a treat. Thanks for having me.
• 1:43
  Should I call you Doctor Sean? What do you usually?
• 1:45
  Go by please. Call me Sean, please.
• 1:48
  What are your students at Biola call you?
• 1:50
  Well, my undergrads, I do ask him to call me Doctor McDowell.
• 1:54
  My grad students are my age and many older.
• 1:57
  They're professionals and we have like neurosurgeons and
• 2:01
  doctors and lawyers and stay at home moms.
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  I'm like, please call me Sean. So I'm a I'm a neurosurgeon stay
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  at home mom category, Sean. All.
• 2:12
  Right. Thank you so much.
• 2:13
  Well, I'd love to hear. So I'm a fan of Biola.
• 2:16
  You know, some of their team at Live Action went to Biola and
• 2:19
  I've met some really good folks who went to, have gone to Biola
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  and they've got a really strong Christian foundation, you know,
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  basic Christian worldview foundation.
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  So I'm curious about your trajectory, how you landed up
• 2:30
  Biola, how you got into apologetics and yeah, the Doctor
• 2:36
  Sean McDowell story. Well, there's no way to
• 2:39
  appreciate my journey and apologetics apart from my dad,
• 2:43
  who's been doing apologetics this fall for six decades.
• 2:47
  He's retired now, but was with crew and really started doing
• 2:52
  apologetics when there was like CS Lewis, Francis Schaefer and
• 2:55
  hardly anybody else. He wrote 1.
• 2:59
  He really his OG and he was, I mean his book more than a
• 3:02
  Carpenter was like before there were small apologetics books.
• 3:06
  It was one of the 1st he set out to disprove Christianity and he
• 3:11
  came from an incredibly troubled, painful background
• 3:15
  with a dad who said you were a mistake, we didn't want you who
• 3:18
  is an alcoholic. He was very severely sexually
• 3:22
  abused. His sister took her own life.
• 3:25
  I mean just pain in his life saw Christians that just had a joy
• 3:29
  and peace and was like I want that challenged him to use his
• 3:32
  mind set out to disprove it. Surprised by the evidence, life
• 3:35
  change. So he grows, He comes in
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  ministry in like the 60s and 70s and 80s, like debating on the
• 3:42
  free speech platform and just kind of this radical movement.
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  And so I had this dad who's just been a revolutionary my whole
• 3:51
  life, a radical for Jesus living this, modeling this.
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  I had no intention of going into apologetics myself.
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  I I played college basketball and obviously at 59, nobody
• 4:02
  would look at me and ever suggest that.
• 4:03
  But I just or suspect that I just love the game and thought I
• 4:06
  was going to do some kind of coaching, maybe teaching and
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  went through a period of doubt in my own life where I had a lot
• 4:12
  of questions and had to work through some of these myself.
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  And then I took a class on apologetics my senior year with
• 4:19
  JP Moreland, who is a one of the leading philosophers in the
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  world today and is a peer of mine still.
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  And it was the first time I heard about philosophical
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  apologetics like intelligent design, the ontological
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  argument, philosophy of mind. I was like hooked.
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  And so I knew I wanted to work with students.
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  I saw students having a lot of questions and I didn't see a lot
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  of people doing it well with students and still just started
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  teaching and writing. And Speaking of students didn't
• 4:50
  have this grand plan to become an apologist.
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  I really didn't. It was just taking opportunities
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  as they came, trying to make a difference in the lives of
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  students. That's awesome.
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  I mean, it's a beautiful that your dad went through so much
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  hardship but then turned it into something so incredible.
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  What was the name of his? You mentioned his book.
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  Well, so in 1972, he first wrote a book called Evidence that
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  Demands a Verdict. And it was a massive book where
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  he just collected all of the evidence he could find for the
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  Christian faith. And you got to realize people
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  couldn't find at libraries, certainly online anywhere.
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  Like what's the evidence for the resurrection?
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  It wasn't accessible hardly at all.
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  What's the evidence fulfilled prophecy.
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  How do we know the Bible's true? So he actually traveled around
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  the world. He had money from a painting
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  business, even though he was in his 20s and was trying to gather
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  the evidence against it, just compiled it into this huge book
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  and literally no publisher wanted it.
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  They're like, this book won't sell.
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  And now I don't know how many millions of copies.
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  Every publisher wishes that they had it because it's just went
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  gangbusters. And some ways you could say
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  really helped launch kind of the modern apologetics movement.
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  Five years later. People kept saying things like,
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  you know, evidence is so big. I wish I just had a small book
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  to give someone. So making the case for Jesus.
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  So he goes to a McDonald's in Chicago, sits down with legal
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  pads, writes out the first version of More Than a
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  Carpenter, and now worldwide. He never could have dreamed
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  that. It's over 30 million in print.
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  That's insane. And like 120 languages around
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  the world. So those were his first two that
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  have just had, I think, incalculable influence on
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  people's lives. So more than a Carpenter, over
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  30 million books sold. And here you are following in
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  your dad's footsteps to do his his mission.
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  It's awesome. Yeah.
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  And you just talked to Lee Strobel this morning, who now I
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  see the connection case for Christ.
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  He basically, you know, took this.
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  You know, I love Lee. He's brilliant.
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  He definitely had a great person to to help inspire his work.
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  Your dad. Well, I mentioned that earlier
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  only because you mentioned him. I don't, I was not trying to
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  name Drop Lee, but Lee is one of the just in my eyes, one of the
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  leaders in the apologetic. He really is, yeah.
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  He's so gracious. He's an amazing speaker.
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  His books Case for Christ in particular has just sold, I
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  don't know how many millions and he's just such a team player
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  encouraging other people. So he had a new, he has a new
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  book coming out, had a chance to just interview him about that.
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  So this is really meaningful for me because when I was in high
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  school, I was raised in a Christian family, very Bible
• 7:35
  based church. And but there was a time, as you
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  know, most students go through this period of questioning and
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  how do I know what I believe? What do I believe?
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  And so the first question is, is God real?
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  And I thought that philosophically there was a
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  pretty good case for God. It was pretty intuitive and
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  pretty logical. And then the question is, who is
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  Christ? Is Christ, You know who he says
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  he is? And the Case for Christ by Lee
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  Strobel was incredibly influential for me.
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  I found it really compelling. I remember going to a Summit
• 8:04
  Ministries Bible camp actually. I'm sure you're familiar with
• 8:08
  Summit. Been there.
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  For Summit. And they're great.
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  And just the baseline apologetics of, you know, we're
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  not Christians in the sense that we're just, you know, magical
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  thinkers, pie in the sky, genie in a bottle.
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  You know, obviously that's not a relationship to God, but God
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  isn't some sort of like Unicorn, but fantasy that God is real.
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  There's evidence for God, there's a ton of evidence for
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  God. It's everywhere.
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  And there's evidence for Jesus Christ as a historical figure
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  who was, who he said he was, who not only died but resurrected
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  and built the church. And I think but learning about
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  it, it's so life giving for a person who's already kind of
• 8:48
  wanting to believe or curious about belief.
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  So you've been doing a lot of yeoman's work.
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  You know, your YouTube channel is amazing.
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  You're always, you know, sharing the case for Christ, sharing the
• 9:00
  case for God. And so I wanted to kind of go
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  through some of the people that you've talked to not too long
• 9:06
  ago, in the last couple years really that were from different
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  backgrounds and how you present the apologetics, the case for
• 9:13
  God and the case for Christ. Let's do it.
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  All right, And then we can talk about whatever else we want to
• 9:18
  talk about too. But you had a video, one of your
• 9:21
  top videos actually was Christian apologist visits a
• 9:25
  Hindu temple, which was pretty fun.
• 9:31
  I kind of, I'm guessing at the answer, but why did you go to a
• 9:34
  Hindu temple? Sean?
• 9:36
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  goodranchers.com. Yeah, I actually, in my life
• 10:44
  have not had a ton of conversations with Hindus.
• 10:47
  You and I both live in Orange County.
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  It's not prevalent around here and yet worldwide it's one of
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  the largest religions in the world.
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  So I thought, number one, I just want to learn a little bit about
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  it. And I've done three of these
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  kind of videos in different places, a mosque and a Buddhist
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  temple. And I always bring one of my
• 11:05
  kids with me and I want one of I brought to that one, my older
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  son, I want them to learn about other faiths, in this case
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  Hinduism. This temple was 20 minutes aware
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  from where I live, part of his educational.
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  The other piece was just bridge building trying to just reach
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  out to people who obviously care about spiritual things.
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  And if it's the Christian who's the one who's reaching out.
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  Often times you and I are considered close minded and not
• 11:33
  open to other beliefs. I think when Christians say hey,
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  I'm willing to sit down with people, in fact, I'm going to go
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  on their turf. It kind of flips the narrative a
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  little bit. And then I wanted my audience to
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  watch this and say, you know what?
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  I wonder what people in my world I can reach out to and I can ask
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  questions to and I can have spiritual conversations and I
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  can talk with them. And frankly, I haven't checked
• 11:55
  it. While I think that video got, I
• 11:56
  don't know, 700,000 plus views, there's a ton of people who are
• 12:01
  Hindus who ended up watching that.
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  I had a professor reach out to me and say, hey, let's have a
• 12:07
  deeper dive on this. I was like, great.
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  So I think there's quite a few people who are Hindus who fall
• 12:12
  that and then subscribe to my channel, start watching my other
• 12:15
  stuff. So maybe there's a little
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  evangelism piece that's there as well.
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  I love that. What would you say?
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  I mean, maybe it came up in that deeper dive conversation you had
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  with the professor, but what are the biggest differences between
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  Hinduism and Christianity? I would say on the surface with
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  almost any religion, almost any, you'll find some commonalities
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  about maybe how you treat people, etcetera.
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  But if you just focus on the big questions, is there a God?
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  What is God like? Is there an afterlife and how do
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  you get to this afterlife? What's wrong with the world?
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  Who was Jesus? Hindus and Christians completely
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  differ on those big questions. So what it means to be human?
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  There's a radical difference between Hinduism and between
• 13:03
  Christianity. What's wrong with the world?
• 13:05
  The idea of sin in Christianity is very differently.
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  There's there's a kind of brokenness in the world, but
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  it's very different in Hinduism. That would be in Christianity
• 13:15
  what the character of God is like.
• 13:18
  I don't, I don't think I've really realized this, how much
• 13:20
  differences there is within Hinduism and how much it's
• 13:24
  greater variety than you might find in Christianity.
• 13:27
  So you've got orthodox, Protestant and Catholic
• 13:29
  Christians and we differ on some cores, although there's some
• 13:33
  significant differences in Hinduism.
• 13:35
  It's way bigger than that. It's almost like it's it's a
• 13:38
  group of a bunch of different religions with some certain
• 13:42
  common threads that tie it together.
• 13:44
  So there's even difference over whether there's one God or one
• 13:47
  God in many form or many gods. So part of what this these
• 13:52
  videos that I do is just to give people pause because I hear all
• 13:55
  the time that like religions teach the same thing and all
• 13:59
  paths lead to God. And if someone just watch this
• 14:01
  video, they go, oh, wait a minute, there's massive
• 14:05
  differences on these big questions.
• 14:08
  They can't both be right. And if that's the only take away
• 14:12
  that somebody has from the videos, that's a win and at
• 14:14
  least moving the ball forward. I think that is a very, very
• 14:19
  worthwhile pursuit as I mean, it's key to being an evangelist
• 14:22
  is what is the difference between the old way of thinking
• 14:25
  how that person might see themselves in God, maybe the
• 14:28
  religion that they were born into, right, Maybe Hinduism and
• 14:32
  Christianity? Because I do think that is kind
• 14:34
  of a a sleight of hand in modernism today that says, well,
• 14:37
  it's all kind of the same. You know, all paths lead to
• 14:40
  Rome. Everybody at the end of the day,
• 14:42
  you know, is going to be, you know, in heaven one way or
• 14:45
  another, or the afterlife, as long as they're a good person
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  and the element of truth there. I'm curious your thoughts on
• 14:51
  this is that, you know, I, I believe you know, God, if
• 14:55
  someone is well-intentioned and they are responding to what they
• 14:58
  know, right? So maybe they weren't given
• 15:01
  catechesis, apologetics formation, you know, they were
• 15:04
  not raised with the faith. They weren't exposed to who
• 15:07
  Jesus is, who God is, but they're seeking him earnestly,
• 15:11
  right? That's for God to judge, right.
• 15:13
  So there's obviously in within Christianity, there's the
• 15:15
  fundamentalist view of, well, if they didn't hear the name, name
• 15:17
  of Jesus and profess it, then they're going to be damned to
• 15:19
  hell. Even if they didn't, it wasn't
• 15:20
  of no fault of their own, right? They just, they couldn't hear
• 15:23
  the name of Jesus. So that's a problem.
• 15:25
  So there's certainly, I think as a sub sect of, you know, non
• 15:30
  Catholic Christians who would say that.
• 15:32
  But I think there's also the view of God.
• 15:34
  God will judge, you know, and people need to respond to the
• 15:39
  grace that they're given and the information that they have.
• 15:41
  And God forbid someone never hears the name of Jesus if
• 15:43
  they're earnestly seeking him. There must be something that God
• 15:46
  may do at the moment of death to give them that opportunity.
• 15:49
  I'm curious your take on. That absolutely.
• 15:51
  So this is an area where Christians are going to differ
• 15:53
  over like how inclusive the gospel can be for those who
• 15:57
  haven't heard. So in kind of sometimes called
• 16:00
  inclusivism view would be that everybody's saved through Jesus,
• 16:05
  but people who don't hear the name of Jesus can be saved by
• 16:09
  responding to what knowledge they have about Jesus.
• 16:14
  It seems CS Lewis may have taken a position similar to this.
• 16:18
  It's been a while since I've looked at his stuff.
• 16:21
  I don't know that I'm persuaded biblically by that it's
• 16:24
  certainly possible. But I was actually just this
• 16:27
  morning, I've invited a guest to come on my show who's talking
• 16:31
  about visions that Muslims have had around the.
• 16:34
  World that. Is common.
• 16:37
  I mean, I've talked with and interviewed.
• 16:39
  I've probably interviewed half a dozen, but talked with dozens of
• 16:42
  Muslims and almost every single time, former Muslims who become
• 16:46
  Christians, there is some kind of supernatural vision or dream
• 16:51
  that they have. Now, what that partly tells me
• 16:55
  is that God is not bound by our means of communication to get
• 16:59
  his saving message of the person of Jesus to us.
• 17:04
  So only if somebody really was seeking after God.
• 17:07
  And you see in Acts 17, it's kind of like this sense of
• 17:10
  Paul's speech in Athens, like for those who are seeking after
• 17:13
  God, I think God would make himself known to themselves in a
• 17:19
  supernatural fashion about who Jesus is.
• 17:24
  Now, if somebody doesn't respond to the natural revelation,
• 17:27
  whether it's conscience or creation, I don't see why God is
• 17:32
  bound to give them further information about the name of
• 17:35
  Jesus, given that they've rejected what they know and He
• 17:38
  knows the state of their heart. It sounds like we actually agree
• 17:41
  that and Sean, because I think we do, because you're saying God
• 17:45
  is not bound by human means of communication.
• 17:47
  He can come in a vision, He can come in a dream, He can come any
• 17:50
  way he wants to make sure people have the opportunity to say, I
• 17:54
  will serve you. I, I, I want to follow you,
• 17:56
  right. And I mean, I think my argument
• 17:59
  would be that everyone is given that opportunity one way or
• 18:02
  another before the final judgement of heaven or hell.
• 18:06
  And that might be at the moment of death in a supernatural
• 18:08
  opportunity. That might be through a vision.
• 18:10
  If you're Muslim and you know, Iran, that might be through the
• 18:13
  street preacher or just through the person that raised you, the
• 18:17
  person you met at college, whatever it might be.
• 18:18
  But you're, everyone has the opportunity.
• 18:21
  And I think about the angels, you know, the, the, and I'm, I'm
• 18:24
  curious your take on this, but there's a teaching that, and I,
• 18:26
  I believe this to be true, that all the angels were given the
• 18:29
  opportunity to serve or not to serve, But they, they, they
• 18:32
  chose, you know, some of them not to serve.
• 18:34
  And they're demons in hell. They reject the sovereign rule
• 18:38
  of God. And then there were some that
• 18:40
  obviously said, of course, I'm going to serve.
• 18:42
  And that's the angels of, of God who are obedient to his will.
• 18:45
  And so similarly, human beings, we have that choice one way or
• 18:49
  another. And, and I think it might also
• 18:52
  kind of makes true sense for very young children before the
• 18:55
  age of reason. I'm curious to take on this.
• 18:57
  You've got like a four year old who dies like God forbid, right?
• 19:02
  And let's say they're unbaptized, you know, so in, in
• 19:05
  the, in the Catholic tradition, Orthodox tradition, you want to
• 19:08
  baptize that baby stat, adopt them into the family of God.
• 19:12
  But let's say they're unbaptized, 4 years old, haven't
• 19:15
  heard the name of Jesus, largely innocent, you know, obviously
• 19:19
  boring to original sin that they haven't committed a crime
• 19:21
  willfully. They're they're before the age
• 19:22
  of reason. You know, does that mean they're
• 19:26
  they go to HEW hockey sticks and and I would say yeah, you know,
• 19:32
  it's a curious your your take on that.
• 19:33
  So now we're exploring. I appreciate you exploring it
• 19:35
  with me. So on on both of these, the
• 19:38
  older I get, the more I'm somewhat content with this
• 19:41
  answer in a way I was not when I was younger.
• 19:44
  And the answer is how we nuance these particular things the
• 19:49
  Scriptures don't specifically tell us.
• 19:53
  So we're not just blindly speculating, but we're trying to
• 19:56
  piece together what makes the most sense with the character of
• 19:59
  God. What Scripture says is God just
• 20:02
  if these circumstances you're describing play out the way we
• 20:07
  think that they do. And one thing often say the
• 20:09
  skeptics saying, what about those who haven't heard?
• 20:11
  I'll say, you know, what part of being God is he is the one who's
• 20:16
  going to judge justly if there is a God and he has the
• 20:21
  attributes that the Bible describes, God is going to do
• 20:25
  this justly. So Craig Blomberg, interesting
• 20:28
  enough, I, I didn't expect this coming from an evangelical
• 20:31
  scholar, but it's had me thinking because I really
• 20:33
  believe there's a powerful case for near death experiences and
• 20:36
  deathbed visions. I think the evidence is
• 20:39
  compelling for these. He said, what if people who
• 20:43
  haven't heard the name of Jesus at death, they have some kind of
• 20:47
  experience like that? We couldn't prove that, but
• 20:52
  that's totally possible and fitting in with the character of
• 20:57
  God. Now when it comes to children
• 20:59
  who haven't heard, I think there's something to be said for
• 21:03
  the age of accountability. I was reading the story of
• 21:06
  Exodus recently and there's and this doesn't perfectly map on,
• 21:09
  but there's a certain generation that's held accountable and not
• 21:13
  able to enter into the promised land wandering for 40 years.
• 21:18
  The next generation is able to, there's a sense of like certain
• 21:22
  level of accountability is going to be held for those who should
• 21:26
  have known differently. Could that apply to the four
• 21:28
  year old? I think that's a very reasonable
• 21:31
  way to look at it and approach it.
• 21:33
  And there's some other biblical passages some people might point
• 21:35
  towards, but I think that's a compelling way that you can
• 21:38
  still have the justice of God and his goodness and a
• 21:41
  plausible, you know, theological potential solution to it.
• 21:45
  Yeah, I think that that is fair and I think about even people
• 21:48
  with an intellectual disability significant, but you still have
• 21:53
  a soul that can make a choice, especially when the human
• 21:56
  frailty is accounted for in God's purpose, justice and the
• 22:00
  soul can choose, you know, yes or no, like I want to be with
• 22:02
  God or or I don't. This is by the way, you know,
• 22:05
  because I, I, this is another thing we're getting into this
• 22:08
  and I want to go back to the case for God, big picture, but
• 22:10
  this is really connected to it all, of course, but it's the,
• 22:13
  it's the question of purgatory. Because I know I'm going to
• 22:16
  guess we probably disagree on purgatory, although I know there
• 22:19
  are some, you know, Protestants who are, who do support
• 22:22
  purgatory, think that it makes sense.
• 22:24
  But you talk about the, the near death, you know, near, near
• 22:28
  death experience or that kind of at the, at the best, the
• 22:31
  deathbed vision that someone might have to give them that
• 22:34
  opportunity if they haven't heard yet to make the choice for
• 22:37
  against God. And you know, this whole idea of
• 22:40
  purgatory is this space before the final judgment.
• 22:43
  And it could be the blink of an eye, as far as we know it in the
• 22:45
  human, in the, in the scope of human time, or it could be, you
• 22:49
  know, thousands of years. It's not really in human time,
• 22:54
  right? It's just kind of spiritual
• 22:55
  space-time and space where people can make a decision.
• 22:59
  You know, people who have maybe made the decision for God have a
• 23:04
  time of sanctification and purification to prepare for the
• 23:07
  beatific vision for heaven. So I'm curious if that kind of
• 23:10
  potentially adds up with what you're describing or maybe you
• 23:13
  say? Well, so I've got a couple
• 23:15
  thoughts here. I don't spend almost any time on
• 23:19
  Catholic, Protestant theology and debates.
• 23:23
  It doesn't interest me. I don't focus there.
• 23:26
  So I really haven't spent a lot of time thinking through
• 23:29
  purgatory, taking the time to understand what it is.
• 23:32
  To give you a fair response. One question that I would say is
• 23:36
  I think that there might be a difference between a vision
• 23:39
  somebody has in this life before they've died and are entering
• 23:44
  into the afterlife, and somebody who dies and has crossed that
• 23:49
  barrier and their soul is purged or prepared for eternity versus
• 23:54
  separated from God for eternity. I think that was a distinction
• 23:58
  we probably have to unpack. It's a good point to.
• 24:00
  Compare and contrast the two of those.
• 24:02
  Yeah. All right, we could go down that
• 24:05
  down that route, but I want to go to the and I appreciate you
• 24:08
  been like going bumping around with me on this stuff because
• 24:11
  there's more than the Hinduism, there's Islam, which you've done
• 24:16
  great job. I think, you know, given the
• 24:18
  apologetics for the faith. And then there's this whole kind
• 24:21
  of world of academia, people that are really smart in doctors
• 24:25
  and scientists who struggle maybe with the idea of God or
• 24:28
  Jesus Christ. What have you found when it
• 24:31
  comes to academia? You're in academia to be the
• 24:34
  most compelling case for the existence of God, and you find
• 24:39
  that it resonates with really smart academic people largely.
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  That's we Heart nutrition.com. It's really interesting you ask
• 26:06
  this because I'm creating a video right now and I haven't
• 26:09
  released it yet where I've asked 100 of the top Christian
• 26:14
  apologist would they consider the best argument for the
• 26:18
  existence of God. And I haven't quite, I'm trying
• 26:23
  to analyze like I have some Catholic apologist.
• 26:25
  I've asked some Protestant ones, men, women, maybe those the pH,
• 26:29
  DS without Youtubers, professors.
• 26:30
  Like I really want to dive into the data.
• 26:32
  I haven't had a chance to do that yet, but one response
• 26:36
  that's interesting came from, I think it was, I'm not going to
• 26:41
  decide who it was because I'm trying to remember looking at so
• 26:43
  many who said it's not just one argument that's the best.
• 26:47
  Like this apologist refused to answer.
• 26:49
  And he said people are wired so differently and have different
• 26:54
  objections to God, So what might work for this person won't work
• 26:58
  for that person. And I think there's something to
• 27:01
  be said for that as a whole. I mean, the strongest arguments,
• 27:05
  I think morality is a strong argument.
• 27:08
  Like if somebody said, Sean, just make one argument for the
• 27:11
  existence of God. And I think it's strong because
• 27:14
  logically you can make the case, but it's existential.
• 27:19
  We've experienced evil. We've contributed to evil.
• 27:23
  Nobody can look at it dispassionately and not say, I
• 27:27
  mean almost nobody and not say something like genocide or child
• 27:30
  abuse is wrong. Well, what makes that wrong?
• 27:34
  Well, only if we have human value and there's an objective
• 27:37
  moral standard we can compare our behavior to.
• 27:41
  So I think the moral law strong. I think creation is a really
• 27:45
  strong argument. And this is Psalms 19 and Romans
• 27:48
  chapter 1. There's something about DNA,
• 27:52
  there's something about the origin of the universe.
• 27:54
  There's something about fine tuning think people just have
• 27:57
  this intuitive sense when you look at creation.
• 28:00
  This couldn't have just happened by accident.
• 28:05
  So I think there's a lot of academics who are open and
• 28:09
  there's probably a lot of academics who are not.
• 28:12
  And you'll you'll see different belief in God and different
• 28:15
  disciplines. Like I think one of the lowest
• 28:17
  it actually be sociology, but there's a ton of scientists, I
• 28:22
  forget the numbers, who actually have pH, DS and teaching science
• 28:25
  schools who actually really believe in God.
• 28:28
  So I think we have to tailor to the person.
• 28:30
  But creation and morality, I think, are two of the strongest
• 28:33
  arguments for God. We had Father Spitzer on the
• 28:36
  show several months back, but he was talking about how the look,
• 28:39
  the majority of doctors in the medical field believe in the
• 28:42
  existence of God. The the large majority, I think,
• 28:45
  because I think to what you're saying it's it's, you know,
• 28:48
  irrefutable. They see the evidence of the
• 28:50
  human person and it's intricacies.
• 28:52
  And also you're saying they witnessed miracles.
• 28:54
  A bunch of them are like, can't explain that one.
• 28:57
  You know, where did where did that come from on the morality
• 29:03
  argument you're beginning to make?
• 29:04
  I'd love to hear you share more on that because you're saying
• 29:08
  there's a moral code that speaks to right or wrong of how to
• 29:12
  treat humans. If that's purely invented by
• 29:15
  humans, you'll do a better job than me.
• 29:18
  Well, I'll let you you take it away.
• 29:19
  But how would that case? How do you make that case that
• 29:22
  morality shows us the existence of a God?
• 29:25
  That the need for morality or the existence of morality.
• 29:28
  So if if there are objective moral values and duties, there
• 29:32
  must be a God. Premise #1 premise #2 There are
• 29:36
  objective moral values and duties.
• 29:39
  Conclusion. Therefore there must be a God.
• 29:43
  So we take premise #1 you know, if there are objective moral
• 29:46
  values and duties, there must be a God.
• 29:50
  Well, most people intuitively act as if there are objective
• 29:54
  moral duties, although that is premise #2 but it raises the
• 29:58
  question, where do these moral values and duties come from?
• 30:02
  Why do I have an obligation to treat you a certain way?
• 30:05
  Why do human beings have intrinsic value compared to a
• 30:09
  bug or compared to a rock? Where does that come from?
• 30:13
  Well, that doesn't bubble up from rocks themselves.
• 30:16
  It's not a physical thing. You might say it's a spiritual
• 30:21
  thing. So if there are objective moral
• 30:24
  values and duties, God best explains where they come from.
• 30:30
  If Fyodor Dostoevsky who said if there is no God, all is
• 30:35
  permissible, mean if there's not a transcendent moral source,
• 30:40
  then there's no built in reason why I have to follow some moral
• 30:46
  code objectively speaking, apart from self-interest or gain or
• 30:51
  something to that effect. So if there are objective moral
• 30:54
  values and duties, there must be a God.
• 30:56
  God makes sense of this. Second, there are objective
• 30:59
  moral values and duties. Say, well, how do you know?
• 31:03
  Well, one way we know is it's just intrinsic and it's obvious.
• 31:07
  It's William Lane Craig who's often said if somebody doesn't
• 31:10
  realize that torturing an innocent child for fun and you
• 31:15
  have to qualify fun because somebody might say, like, well,
• 31:18
  what if I had to stop a nuclear bomb?
• 31:19
  It's like, OK, I don't want to get lost in that ethical
• 31:22
  dilemma. Torture an innocent child for
• 31:24
  fun. If someone doesn't, still don't.
• 31:25
  Do it by the way. Right.
• 31:27
  I mean my my point is just they make it as clear as possible.
• 31:31
  If they can't see that, they don't need an argument, they
• 31:34
  need a therapist. There's certain systems or fair
• 31:37
  enough. I would agree with you on that.
• 31:40
  It's like it's obvious that something is wrong with that.
• 31:44
  We know it intuitively, So therefore the best explanation
• 31:50
  is that there's a God. So you're kind of moving from
• 31:53
  the existence of the moral law. And by the way, if somebody
• 31:56
  wants to deny that the moral law exists, this is where I think CS
• 31:59
  Lewis is so helpful is that their actions are going to
• 32:03
  betray them. I had AI had a debate with a
• 32:07
  influential atheist and part of his focus is on just pointing
• 32:11
  out what he thinks is hypocrisy and immorality by Christians.
• 32:16
  And I pressed him on how he grounds objective morality if
• 32:21
  there is no God. He said, I'm not saying there's
• 32:23
  objective morality, I'm just pointing out hypocrisy.
• 32:27
  And I said you're pointed out because you think hypocrisy is
• 32:30
  objectively wrong and should be pointed out.
• 32:34
  You can't escape it. That's CS Lewis's argument.
• 32:37
  The moment somebody says there's no right and wrong, they're
• 32:41
  going to say something or do something that reveals that they
• 32:45
  think there's a real right and wrong.
• 32:48
  That's a part of being human. So if there's a moral law, the
• 32:51
  best explanation is there's a moral law giver.
• 32:54
  Very strong. How does that resonated and how
• 32:56
  did that go with the debate against the atheist?
• 32:59
  What did he say? To you?
• 33:02
  Interestingly to me, my primary focus, I don't do.
• 33:05
  I'm more interested in like spiritual conversation with
• 33:08
  people than formal debates. My primary goal is not to
• 33:12
  persuade my opponent or interlocutor.
• 33:15
  It's to hopefully be gracious and kind and then make the
• 33:20
  argument that Christianity makes the most sense.
• 33:23
  I'm appealing to the middle ground audience.
• 33:26
  I don't think this fellow was remotely open minded and willing
• 33:30
  to shift. So the success of an argument to
• 33:34
  me is not necessarily whether the person adopts it or accepts
• 33:38
  it, but if I speak it lovingly, filled with the Holy Spirit, and
• 33:42
  it is a good sound argument, I can leave the results to God.
• 33:48
  That's a really good philosophy on how to approach debates.
• 33:52
  I love that. Thank you for sharing that.
• 33:54
  That's something I'm going to think about more when I do
• 33:56
  debates because I I still go in there kind of, you know, Lord
• 33:59
  change their mind. It'll be amazing.
• 34:01
  Like there's this big conversion from this, you know, former
• 34:04
  abortionist or, or current abortionist, excuse me, or some
• 34:07
  like, you know, pro abortion professor.
• 34:09
  But you're right. It's for the people listening
• 34:12
  and it's also for God. It's just come in with love and
• 34:15
  grace and truth and God, God is the one who does the results.
• 34:19
  That's that's his part. First off, you're a great
• 34:21
  debater. I hope you'll keep keep it up.
• 34:23
  There's nothing wrong with praying that.
• 34:24
  I pray that that's just not how I gauge success to me, and that
• 34:30
  frees me from feeling like I have to persuade this person to
• 34:34
  be successful and focus on how do I present in a way that the
• 34:38
  audience finds compelling. Or at least, as Greg Koch would
• 34:42
  say, puts a stone in their shoe and makes them think
• 34:45
  differently. That's my goal, as I do.
• 34:48
  It's really good and I think you do that very well.
• 34:51
  What, what was the what have you seen generally the response to
• 34:54
  that argument about how morality shows us a God in general when
• 34:59
  you, you know, do apologetics via YouTube or debates or with
• 35:01
  students. I would so skeptics, non
• 35:05
  Christians have one of two options is 1 is to say you can
• 35:09
  have objective morality without God #2 is to try to say there's
• 35:14
  no such thing as objective morality.
• 35:18
  I mean, in my talking with people reading books, the vast
• 35:22
  majority of skeptics are going to want to say there is
• 35:25
  objective morality and you can have it without God.
• 35:29
  And to me that testifies that we live in God's world and we're
• 35:32
  made in God's image and we just can't escape it.
• 35:36
  It's too clear that there's right and wrong.
• 35:40
  I mean, take the issue of of pro-life.
• 35:44
  I mean even people who think you and I are wrong clearly will say
• 35:48
  things like they think we are evil and doing bad things to
• 35:52
  women. They think the position we're
• 35:54
  holding is scientifically and morally wrong.
• 35:57
  Well, we can debate the facts, but there's agreement that
• 36:01
  there's right and wrong and we should care about justice, we
• 36:05
  should care about mercy. All sides agree with that.
• 36:09
  So I find myself often times in conversation just saying things
• 36:13
  like, look, I agree with you. I just want to press you to
• 36:17
  think about how this makes sense from within your worldview.
• 36:21
  I think you're borrowing from my worldview, a Judeo-christian
• 36:25
  worldview, to even make this argument.
• 36:29
  And so how it lands, I mean, I haven't done any numbers.
• 36:32
  I have to think about this in some ways, just talking about
• 36:36
  the person of Jesus is in some ways the most effective
• 36:41
  apologetic, seeing his care, seeing his reasoning with
• 36:46
  people, just seeing his life. It's hard to say that that's not
• 36:51
  the most effective apologetic in some ways, but morality, yeah, I
• 36:56
  think most people at least see it unless they're completely
• 37:00
  closed off to it, in my experience.
• 37:02
  I love Seven Weeks Coffee because they have the most
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  Plus you'll get your free gift. How do you deal with people that
• 38:10
  say, yes, there is absolute morality and yeah, it comes from
• 38:13
  a God, but it's not your maybe they would say conservative
• 38:17
  Christian God. You know, they would say, well,
• 38:19
  you're, you know, pro-life is a great, you know, a great
• 38:22
  defining issue for a lot of people.
• 38:25
  And I think there's unfortunately some Christian
• 38:27
  denominations still that say abortion's fine.
• 38:30
  There's certainly some Christians who would say
• 38:32
  abortion. You know, maybe it's kind of
• 38:34
  sad, but it's it's still better to have that freedom of choice.
• 38:38
  There's these, you've probably seen them, but they're these
• 38:40
  kind of sad viral videos. You have like the woman
• 38:42
  priestess, the Episcopalian, I think priestess talking about,
• 38:45
  you know, God gave this, God gave Mary choice, and so why
• 38:49
  wouldn't he give a woman a choice?
• 38:54
  Well, I, I would, if this person is open to conversation, I would
• 38:57
  press in and ask a lot of questions is how I would do it.
• 39:01
  So chances are this person is, is going to go to scripture and
• 39:05
  pick and choose the teachings on sexuality, on life that fit an
• 39:10
  ethic they're already committed to.
• 39:12
  Now, I'm not saying more conservative people can't do the
• 39:15
  same thing that can, but in this case, I think it's pretty clear.
• 39:19
  I've had a lot of conversations with self identified progressive
• 39:23
  Christians on my channel. I call them like friendly,
• 39:26
  substantive debates. And I think when it gets down to
• 39:29
  it, somebody has to have a source of authority.
• 39:31
  Maybe their prime authority is their feelings.
• 39:35
  Maybe it's culture, maybe it's a cultural understanding of what
• 39:38
  love is. Maybe it's science, and so I'm
• 39:41
  going to probably try to find out where that source of
• 39:44
  authority is with that person and just press them back to the
• 39:47
  person of Jesus. If they say they're a follower
• 39:50
  of Jesus, how do they justify this with a consistent biblical
• 39:55
  ethic and value of life? I don't think you can get there
• 39:59
  without ISO Jesus about saying, you know, Mary had a choice.
• 40:02
  I mean, I'm sorry, give me a break.
• 40:04
  There's some good arguments we should entertain, but those kind
• 40:07
  of arguments are just bad ones. So part of me when I hear this
• 40:11
  stuff, I just want, I want to go right at the person, but I also
• 40:15
  want to be effective in how I do so.
• 40:17
  So if I'm like you were debating 25, you know, pro choicers, you
• 40:21
  got to go right to the point, You got to make your argument.
• 40:24
  There's a certain format for that.
• 40:26
  But I'm having a conversation with somebody.
• 40:28
  I'm just going to say, OK, tell me about that.
• 40:30
  Who do you think Jesus was? Where do you really find this in
• 40:33
  the scripture? If I was to show you that this
• 40:35
  was taught in Scripture, would you shift your views?
• 40:39
  Then I'm just going to lovingly, graciously press them on it,
• 40:43
  because I don't think you can get to a pro-choice position if
• 40:47
  you hold Scripture with any sort of authority.
• 40:49
  Yes, I completely agree. And you look at I mean, you look
• 40:52
  at tradition, like the early Christians that did a key.
• 40:54
  So the way early Christians understood the teachings of
• 40:57
  Jesus as well as Scripture and they were hardcore pro-life.
• 41:01
  I mean, that's, no, there's no debate there in terms of seeing,
• 41:04
  you know, ending the life of a baby is ending the life of God's
• 41:07
  child. So that one, that one feels like
• 41:10
  it should be an easy one among people who say they're
• 41:13
  Christians. I I don't disagree.
• 41:17
  I I think it is an easy one. Postmodernism, I mean, it's like
• 41:22
  the the fact that we're in the space where there's people who
• 41:25
  say they're Christians who promote this stuff.
• 41:28
  You know, it's a very, it's an interesting time to be alive.
• 41:31
  They've always been heretics, of course.
• 41:33
  You know, I don't, I don't know how much is post modernized.
• 41:38
  That might be a piece of it. I think a lot of it is misguided
• 41:41
  compassion. I think that's the root.
• 41:44
  I think there's a lack of biblical authority and I think
• 41:47
  there's misguided compassion. Somebody's been manipulated or
• 41:51
  LED to believe that the compassionate thing is to have
• 41:55
  an abortion and they really think that.
• 41:57
  They don't know the science, they don't know the theology,
• 42:00
  don't know the philosophy behind it.
• 42:02
  So they're clearly trying to do what they think is right, but
• 42:05
  are profoundly misguided about what that looks like, and in the
• 42:09
  case of life, disastrously so. Another video that I saw that I
• 42:15
  thought was really compelling was this radical, a radical
• 42:20
  Saudi Muslim comes to Christ, and this gets into more the case
• 42:25
  for Christ because obviously Muslims believe in God.
• 42:28
  They believe in a God and there's even elements of the of
• 42:32
  the Muslim God. Some people say there's a lot of
• 42:35
  similarities to the Christian God.
• 42:36
  Other people say, well, there's some really key differences.
• 42:39
  So there's a little bit of, you know, difference in how much of
• 42:42
  a difference is the God of the Muslims than the God of the
• 42:46
  Christians. But then of course, Jesus is our
• 42:48
  God too, you know, three persons, the Trinity.
• 42:51
  So anyways, I'd love to 1st hear.
• 42:53
  Well, yeah, tell me the first. Tell me about how that video
• 42:55
  came about, how you decided to do that video in that interview.
• 42:59
  Ultimately it's all said and then I want to equip Christians
• 43:02
  and I want to reach non Christians to consider the
• 43:06
  claims of Christ. And so I've thought a lot about
• 43:08
  what's the most effective way to do it.
• 43:10
  Now I'm a so my train is an analytic philosophy and I'm
• 43:13
  professor so I'm an idea guy, but people aren't as drawn to
• 43:18
  ideas as they are stories. So I started Pivot a while ago
• 43:22
  and say if I can find people with compelling stories that are
• 43:26
  legitimate and then they can weave apologetics through it,
• 43:31
  probably more people will watch it.
• 43:34
  And that's turned out largely to be the case.
• 43:37
  So I hadn't actually covered Islam for a while.
• 43:40
  It's not my specialty. But you know, in some ways I've
• 43:43
  thought about what are some of the biggest challenges to the
• 43:45
  Christian faith. And it's like for 20 years,
• 43:48
  we've spent all this energy on the new atheist and naturalism,
• 43:52
  which are like less than 10% of our population.
• 43:56
  And the second largest belief system in the world is Islam.
• 44:01
  Like, what am I doing that needs to be a piece of it?
• 44:05
  So I just started reaching out, trying to find some former
• 44:08
  Muslims who had stories that I thought were compelling, that
• 44:11
  were interesting, were legitimate.
• 44:13
  They've thought about their faith.
• 44:14
  And I think I've, I don't know, I'd have to do the math, maybe 5
• 44:17
  or 6. But this was just a fellow who
• 44:20
  grew up in a Saudi family, and it was a pretty radical
• 44:23
  committed Saudi family. I interviewed another fellow
• 44:26
  friend of mine who came from a radical.
• 44:29
  I mean, he was basically in the Iranian army for a period of
• 44:32
  time. So he came out of more Shia as
• 44:35
  opposed to a Sunni faith. And just ask them their story
• 44:40
  and they'll make the case amidst their experience of grace and
• 44:44
  conversion of following Jesus, of why they had doubts about the
• 44:47
  Quran, why they have doubts about the teachings of Jesus
• 44:51
  that appear in Islamic teachings centuries after the time of
• 44:55
  Jesus. So I wanted to encourage them as
• 44:59
  former Muslims who in many ways are speaking up, taking a lot of
• 45:02
  criticism and persecution for this.
• 45:05
  Can I come alongside them? Also equip Christians how to
• 45:08
  talk with their Muslim friends and neighbors?
• 45:11
  In my experience, the vast majority of Muslims I've met are
• 45:14
  open to having conversations. There's an imam in a mosque near
• 45:19
  here. We've built up a conversation,
• 45:21
  how to feel. It's kind of an ongoing dialogue
• 45:23
  that we're having. Super friendly, one of the
• 45:26
  kindest, most hospitable people that I know.
• 45:30
  So that's why I started covering certain stories like that is
• 45:33
  they're just so fascinating and so interesting.
• 45:36
  But when you start comparing Christianity with Islam, clearly
• 45:40
  Christianity has a lot more in common with Islam than it does
• 45:43
  with Hinduism. So we believe there's a creator
• 45:46
  God. We believe that we're not an
• 45:48
  accident. We believe that this God has
• 45:51
  spoken. We hold the Bible with some
• 45:54
  reverence, even though there's some difference there.
• 45:56
  We believe in judgment and a heaven and a hell.
• 45:59
  There's a lot in common. But when you probe down to
• 46:01
  things like who is Jesus and the character of God and how we have
• 46:05
  salvation, we're talking about radical differences here.
• 46:10
  I was riding in a this is a few years ago.
• 46:13
  I can't remember was an Uber or taxi and people ask me what I
• 46:16
  do. I'd be curious how you respond.
• 46:18
  I'm like, well, I teach theology or apologetics.
• 46:21
  Well, what is that? I tell people either they change
• 46:23
  the subject quickly or they go, oh, tell me about it.
• 46:26
  And I told this Muslim taxi driver and he goes, oh, that's
• 46:30
  wonderful. You're speaking a Christian
• 46:32
  event. He goes, I'm a Muslim and we
• 46:33
  worship the same God and I decided to just play dumb.
• 46:37
  I was like, Oh my goodness, so you believe that Jesus is God?
• 46:41
  Good response. He about like, you know, I don't
• 46:44
  remember, like he's about hit the brakes and like you tell was
• 46:47
  jarring because they absolutely do not believe that God has his
• 46:52
  son. This is the sin, what's called
• 46:54
  shirk, which is to associate anybody or anything with Allah
• 47:00
  that like destines your soul to hell.
• 47:03
  So they think Jesus was virgin born, they think he was a
• 47:07
  miracle worker, but vehemently denied that he was God and human
• 47:11
  flesh denied that he died on the cross.
• 47:14
  That's Surah chapter 4. So we don't worship the same
• 47:18
  God. And I think any honest Muslim
• 47:20
  would tell you that, just like any honest Christian would tell
• 47:23
  you that. What happened next?
• 47:27
  It was a good conversation. I'm trying.
• 47:29
  This was a few years ago. I think he, if I remember
• 47:32
  correctly, he backtracked a little bit and said, well,
• 47:34
  here's what I mean. I said, well, that's fine.
• 47:36
  And I just remember probing a little bit.
• 47:37
  Well, tell me why you believe what you believe and how have
• 47:39
  you ever gone to a church? And you know, I'm just curious
• 47:43
  why you think we worship the same God.
• 47:45
  And I just ask questions and I just try to push and probe
• 47:48
  respectfully to get him to think about something differently.
• 47:53
  It certainly wasn't a conversion moment that I remember there,
• 47:56
  but to me it's enough if I can hear that objection back and
• 48:00
  just graciously challenge something somebody said to me
• 48:05
  that moves the ball forward. The IT makes me think about
• 48:09
  First Corinthians 123. We preach Christ crucified, a
• 48:13
  message which is to the Jews a stumbling block that provokes
• 48:16
  their opposition into the Gentiles foolishness or utter
• 48:19
  nonsense. And I, you know, I think in
• 48:22
  Islam, you know, there is one God and Allah is his prophet.
• 48:25
  Excuse me, Muhammad is his prophet is kind of this
• 48:28
  foundational teaching. They see Jesus as a prophet,
• 48:31
  right? But also not as great even as
• 48:33
  Allah is my understanding. So excuse me, not as great as
• 48:38
  Muhammad. I keep mixing, mixing, mixing
• 48:40
  that up. Obviously so, but Jesus is still
• 48:42
  a prophet. Do they they, they certainly
• 48:46
  don't think he's got it and they don't think he died for our
• 48:47
  sins. This idea of Christ crucified
• 48:51
  for our sins is not a obviously an Islamic belief.
• 48:55
  On a Muslim levels, theologically, you don't need
• 48:58
  somebody to die for your sins on Islam and historically, I mean
• 49:03
  Sir, for they reject that God would allow one of his prophets
• 49:07
  to experience such a shameful death and.
• 49:10
  So it's not, it's like his First Corinthian Saint Paul says to
• 49:13
  the Gentiles, because in this view they'd be not Jews, they'd
• 49:15
  be Gentiles. They're it's just utter nonsense
• 49:18
  that you would he would die, that Jesus, even as a prophet
• 49:21
  would die, but certainly not as God.
• 49:23
  Especially in an honor shame culture where the worst fate
• 49:29
  imaginable was to be stripped completely naked down, publicly
• 49:34
  die as a criminal in front of your family and friends and
• 49:39
  country of origin. That's the worst fate.
• 49:43
  So I think on the flip side, it raised question like if
• 49:47
  Christians are just inventing the story, why do you invent
• 49:51
  that dishonorable death for your founder?
• 49:55
  It is offensive to say that this kind of criminal willingly did
• 50:00
  this and is God and paid for your sins.
• 50:03
  Like, I get it why the cross is offensive if it's not true.
• 50:09
  If it is true, then he took our shame on the cross for us.
• 50:16
  Which, Lila, I'll tell you, I don't remember when this thought
• 50:18
  hit me, but when you go back to the garden, you have Adam and
• 50:23
  Eve. When they discover sin, what
• 50:25
  happens? They cover themselves.
• 50:28
  Now they experience shame. When Jesus took shame out of the
• 50:33
  world, what did he do? He uncovered himself.
• 50:37
  It's the reverse of the sin of Adam and Eve took that shame
• 50:42
  upon us on the cross. I mean, if you don't think it's
• 50:46
  true, I go. I get it.
• 50:47
  That's ridiculous. But if it's actually true what
• 50:51
  this tells us about salvation and the human state and what
• 50:55
  lengths God would go to to be in relationship with us, that's a
• 50:59
  pretty incredible thing. The new Adam, Jesus is the new
• 51:03
  Adam. It is when you, when you take,
• 51:06
  you know, 10 steps back and you think about the fact you can
• 51:09
  walk into like you walk into a Catholic Church in particular
• 51:12
  and certainly in some Protestant churches.
• 51:13
  But you see the crucifix and in many you see the corpus, you see
• 51:18
  the, the, the body of Jesus Christ.
• 51:20
  So this instrument of torture is hanging at the center of, you
• 51:23
  know, hopefully a beautiful church.
• 51:25
  And, and, and it is, there's a scandal, like a wild scandal to
• 51:28
  it that this is our God. And you know, to someone again,
• 51:31
  like the Gentiles, it's the Jesus assembly blocked the
• 51:33
  Gentiles. It's gonna be utter foolishness
• 51:36
  if you don't you know, there's certain fundamentals you don't
• 51:38
  understand about who we are, the need for a savior, you know, the
• 51:42
  the path to salvation through Jesus Christ.
• 51:45
  All of this I can see like again, 10 so spec it's wildly
• 51:49
  can be wildly scandalous. I'm curious like based on what
• 51:51
  you're saying about Islamic culture and you know, honor and
• 51:55
  duty and their view of God, their view of of course, as they
• 51:57
  call him Allah, their view of Muhammad.
• 52:00
  What especially maybe this this encounter you had with this
• 52:05
  Saudi Muslim, former Saudi former Muslim from Saudi Arabia,
• 52:09
  but maybe there's other conversations you've had.
• 52:11
  How did they overcome? How have you seen Muslim
• 52:14
  converts to Christianity overcome that foundational
• 52:18
  objection about Jesus Christ as God and also as crucified God?
• 52:23
  Yeah, that's that's such a good question.
• 52:25
  I can only speak from the people that I've talked with.
• 52:27
  I don't know if there's larger themes, but a few things I
• 52:31
  consistently see is oftentimes the Muslims that convert to
• 52:35
  Christianity just reach a point where the law is unbearable.
• 52:40
  It's just too much. I cannot please Allah if I take
• 52:45
  this seriously, pray five times a day, follow all the law, and
• 52:50
  have no guarantee in my salvation.
• 52:53
  Am I doing enough? That's a theme I hear a lot of.
• 52:58
  There's also, there's there's the relational component.
• 53:02
  A former Muslim who's a friend of mine, I asked him, I said,
• 53:05
  what do you find the most compelling evidence for God?
• 53:08
  And he goes to conversion of Paul.
• 53:11
  I don't hear that. I was like, why?
• 53:12
  He goes, imagine what that cost Paul to convert from his faith.
• 53:17
  That was his public identity, his family, to follow Jesus.
• 53:22
  The shame of that was huge. And because that's not my
• 53:25
  background, I didn't quite register with that.
• 53:28
  So there's that peace that needs to be overcome.
• 53:31
  I think one of the reasons, and I can't prove this, but I think
• 53:34
  one of the reasons that we see so many Muslims having visions
• 53:38
  of Christ that's supernatural. I think it's a way of God just
• 53:42
  affirming them saying this is true and giving them the
• 53:46
  confidence to do what is right amidst the cost that it will.
• 53:51
  It'll mean to them that it doesn't for you and I to follow
• 53:54
  after Jesus. And I think also when many
• 53:57
  Muslims have told me, when I just understood God's grace, it
• 54:02
  just transformed everything for me.
• 54:06
  And so this Saudi Muslim was like, I wasn't afraid to lose my
• 54:10
  life anymore once I began to realize that Jesus conquered the
• 54:17
  grave and that you can kill my body, you know, but not my soul.
• 54:22
  There's a level of confidence that comes to that.
• 54:25
  So I think it's it's a combination of factors and every
• 54:28
  Muslims going to have a unique story, But often times it's
• 54:31
  supernatural element. So many times, just that
• 54:34
  experience of grace, so many times just realizing, like, I
• 54:37
  cannot please a lot if I do all these things because it's
• 54:41
  religion of the law. And then oftentimes, at least
• 54:45
  again in my experience, Christians will come alongside
• 54:49
  these Muslims, even in places like Saudi Arabia or Iran.
• 54:53
  They'll just encounter Christians who will strengthen
• 54:55
  them and pray for them and encourage them and help them to
• 54:59
  move forward and overcome some of the cost of abandoning the
• 55:03
  faith of their fathers. The, the thing you've mentioned
• 55:07
  a couple times and I've heard it, I mean, I, I don't know how
• 55:10
  many years I've been hearing this, this idea of Muslims in
• 55:13
  the Middle East having visions and reports of these really
• 55:18
  unmistakable acts of grace from God, miraculous conversions.
• 55:22
  I mean, every conversion you could say in some ways is its
• 55:24
  own miracle, but you know, it's involving God getting engaged in
• 55:28
  the affairs of men outside of the mode of human usual human
• 55:31
  communication. Have you, what more have you
• 55:33
  heard about that? Are there like, do we have any
• 55:35
  statistics on that? I don't know if there's.
• 55:38
  This is such a good question. I just reached out this morning
• 55:41
  to a. You're so on top of it, Sean.
• 55:44
  Everything I'm asking is like you just did it.
• 55:46
  Well, we're asking the same questions.
• 55:48
  And this has been in the back of my mind for a long time.
• 55:50
  Like, OK, what's the data? How many people are experiencing
• 55:53
  this? And if you go online, there's a
• 55:55
  handful of former Christians who say they had a vision and were
• 56:01
  told to follow Allah. Not near as many interesting,
• 56:05
  but there's a like. A counter movement.
• 56:07
  Yeah. And, you know, and I, I haven't
• 56:09
  found near as many, and I've asked about this, but when I
• 56:12
  hear stuff like that as an apologist, I go, OK, I got to
• 56:14
  look into this. I got to be fair.
• 56:15
  And I got to ask what's really going on.
• 56:17
  So I just reached out this morning to an expert and I was
• 56:20
  like, I want to know more. So I'll have to come back to
• 56:24
  you. Yeah.
• 56:24
  Interesting. Report on that.
• 56:26
  So you're saying there's there's these reports of Christians who
• 56:30
  became Muslim because of a vision of Muhammad, because
• 56:35
  you're not allowed to have a vision of Allah.
• 56:36
  That's, you know, we're not. I don't know that it was
• 56:39
  distinctly a vision of Muhammad. I think more would say that
• 56:42
  Jesus appeared to them. And I was able to find only a
• 56:47
  handful of this. And this came from a
• 56:51
  conversation I had with a with an imam.
• 56:55
  And I said, if you could ask a Christian any question, what
• 56:58
  would it be? And he said, if Jesus appeared
• 57:01
  to you and told you to submit to Allah or Islam, would you?
• 57:06
  I thought, what an interesting question.
• 57:08
  Now I thought he was implying that this has happened a lot.
• 57:12
  So I looked it up and found a handful of cases.
• 57:16
  I asked him later, he goes, no, I was just willing to.
• 57:18
  I just want to know if you'd be willing to submit because of
• 57:20
  course Islam is about submission.
• 57:24
  A Muslim is one who submits. And so to me, I mean, it's, it's
• 57:29
  so it's such a bizarre question. One sense I want to say, if
• 57:32
  there really was a Jesus who appeared to me and said this,
• 57:37
  then I should follow him because this is who Jesus is and Islam
• 57:41
  is true. On the other hand, Islam comes
• 57:44
  700 years after the time of Jesus.
• 57:47
  And the earliest sources we have that are reliable are so
• 57:51
  contrary to what we find in the Quran that I just can't imagine
• 57:55
  Jesus would do this. I would first suspect that this
• 57:59
  is, you know, some kind of evil spirit trying to tell me to do
• 58:02
  something that's false. You know, that's my honest take
• 58:04
  on it. But ultimately, you have to go
• 58:06
  back to the evidence and look at what the evidence teaches.
• 58:08
  So that's where that question came for me.
• 58:11
  And it's been in the back of my mind trying to track some of
• 58:14
  those stories down and see what's behind it.
• 58:16
  That's so interesting. And it's so interesting, like
• 58:19
  what you're saying, because they would totally subvert the
• 58:21
  historical record, like all of the Gospels, all of the early
• 58:25
  Christians, all of the martyrs, all of the, you know, tradition
• 58:30
  handed down through Holy Scripture and through tradition,
• 58:33
  just word of mouth. This is how we do Christianity.
• 58:36
  That would all have to be thrown out the window for Jesus to not
• 58:40
  be God and Jesus to be the prophet, another, you know, 2nd
• 58:44
  in command of Muhammad type prophet for Allah, right?
• 58:48
  So you would have to put so much into this vision that it would
• 58:51
  be kind of like Unicorn belief. You know, I'm believing in, in
• 58:54
  unicorns because there's no historical tradition here.
• 58:57
  There's no historical evidence here.
• 58:59
  It's completely a literally a figment of my imagination.
• 59:02
  And the reason I'm following Jesus in the 1st place is
• 59:05
  because, well, you and I, because of obviously the gift of
• 59:08
  faith, but also all of this historical evidence for who
• 59:12
  Jesus is. And so there's like figment of
• 59:14
  our imagination would undo all of this other reason right and
• 59:19
  and and evidence so. And the test for prophet is
• 59:21
  always to go back to the scriptures, right?
• 59:24
  That's what you test it by. And so I would have to follow
• 59:28
  that test. And it doesn't indicate that
• 59:32
  Jesus would say anything like follow Muhammad or follow Allah.
• 59:37
  A very different depiction of God than I think we see in the
• 59:39
  scriptures. You mentioned earlier some of
• 59:42
  the differences that some of these former Muslims and now
• 59:46
  Christians were sharing with you about their relationship to God,
• 59:50
  the God of the Muslims as they see him versus the true God, as
• 59:53
  we believe him to be the God of the Christians.
• 59:57
  And by the way, he's the God of all, not just the Christians, of
• 59:59
  course, as God. But I'm curious if you can share
• 1:00:03
  more about that, what that difference is theologically
• 1:00:07
  between how Muslims see God? And, and we you're inspiring me
• 1:00:12
  to get some imams on the show or, you know, get and certainly
• 1:00:15
  Muslim converts. I mean, that's such a awesome
• 1:00:18
  work you're doing. I'd I'd connect you in a
• 1:00:20
  heartbeat. They need encouragement to speak
• 1:00:23
  up and an audience to reach people.
• 1:00:25
  I'd love to make that connection.
• 1:00:28
  What would you say? I'm going to follow up with you
• 1:00:30
  on that. What would you say are the two
• 1:00:31
  biggest differences and to the two biggest similarities between
• 1:00:35
  the God of the the Christian God and the the Muslim God?
• 1:00:39
  Oh gosh, too big is differences. I'm really putting you on the
• 1:00:42
  spot here. I don't mind being.
• 1:00:44
  Put on the spot I I I feel like I guess similarities is our we
• 1:00:50
  both believe God is a creator. We both believe that God has
• 1:00:54
  spoken and has revealed his will to us through prophets in the
• 1:00:59
  scripture. There might be others, but those
• 1:01:02
  two come to mind I think, and there's a lot of differences.
• 1:01:06
  I think the biggest difference that comes to mind is the the
• 1:01:10
  problem that separates us from God.
• 1:01:14
  Muslims do not believe in original sin in the way that
• 1:01:18
  Christians do, hence they don't need a sacrifice to pay for that
• 1:01:23
  sin. So that's a huge difference of
• 1:01:26
  why they deny the death of Jesus and still believe you can have
• 1:01:31
  salvation of Allah granted because you follow the five
• 1:01:34
  pillars as best you can versus Christians who say we know we
• 1:01:38
  have eternal life first John 5 because of what Jesus has done
• 1:01:43
  for us. So I think that's a huge
• 1:01:46
  difference. And then just the character of
• 1:01:47
  God. I mean, Allah is Unitarian, one
• 1:01:51
  person in a sense who is divine. Christians of all stripes
• 1:01:56
  believe God is trinitarian, one God, three person.
• 1:01:59
  So there's a lot more than that, but those two come to mind.
• 1:02:03
  And the relationship piece, there's endless conversations,
• 1:02:07
  I'm sure that could be had there because when you have God is 3
• 1:02:10
  persons and he's God your father, and then he's God, your
• 1:02:14
  your Lord and savior, you know, Jesus and then he's your
• 1:02:17
  counselor, your your guide, your Holy Spirit.
• 1:02:21
  You know, there, there's so much there in terms of how that kind
• 1:02:24
  of coaches and encourages and saves, you know, the Christian.
• 1:02:30
  God, God the Father is a very powerful thing within
• 1:02:34
  Christianity. I had a former student of mine,
• 1:02:37
  again, it's just one example, at the Christian School and he's
• 1:02:40
  teach high school full time here where we both live.
• 1:02:44
  And his family was Muslims. And he was in my class every day
• 1:02:49
  like studying theology, talking about this stuff.
• 1:02:52
  And he ended up becoming a Christian.
• 1:02:54
  And he just said when I understood that God is a father
• 1:02:56
  and has grace for me and that there's evidence for this,
• 1:03:00
  rather than just believe because the book says it, he goes, that
• 1:03:03
  was transformative to me. That's unique and Christianity
• 1:03:08
  that God is a father, we can know personally through the Holy
• 1:03:12
  Spirit. I mean, I've just, I've been
• 1:03:14
  preaching on Acts chapter 17. It's like the unknown God.
• 1:03:17
  Like every religion, God is out there and he's distant in some
• 1:03:21
  fashion. In Christianity, we can know God
• 1:03:24
  personally and God is a father for us.
• 1:03:28
  That's powerful, and I think we should lean into that as
• 1:03:31
  Christians, not away from it. And it's and, and the best way
• 1:03:35
  to encounter people leaning into it as they have to actually live
• 1:03:38
  it, right. And that's back to the, you
• 1:03:41
  know, Christian vocation of practice what you preach and you
• 1:03:45
  know, you need to go to God for the source of everything.
• 1:03:49
  What about what's been your experience with when it comes to
• 1:03:54
  apologetics with people that are, maybe they are, you know,
• 1:04:00
  they're not like Muslim, Hindu, you know, they're not, they
• 1:04:03
  don't really have a distinct label they would give
• 1:04:05
  themselves. They're not, you know, super
• 1:04:07
  political, left wing, right wing or whatever.
• 1:04:10
  But they are, you know, maybe they would even identify as
• 1:04:13
  Christian. They would say, yes, I'm, you
• 1:04:15
  know, if they had to take up survey and they put down a
• 1:04:17
  religion, maybe they go to church once a year, but there's
• 1:04:21
  not a practice there. There's not a full ascent of I
• 1:04:26
  want to go into this, right? Maybe that maybe lukewarm would
• 1:04:30
  be the word for them, although I don't want to judge them.
• 1:04:32
  Maybe they truly are seeking, I don't know.
• 1:04:33
  You know what, how do how have you found, what have you found
• 1:04:37
  to be the most effective apologetics approach with this
• 1:04:41
  sort of a person who's maybe, maybe this is the best way to
• 1:04:44
  define them. They were raised with a
• 1:04:46
  Christian faith of some kind, and if they had to answer a
• 1:04:49
  survey they'd say I'm Catholic or I'm I'm Christian, but
• 1:04:53
  they're not really practicing it.
• 1:04:55
  It's like a cultural Catholic, cultural Christian, cultural
• 1:04:58
  believer in God in some fashion, which by the way, the recent Pew
• 1:05:02
  studies show that 60% of Americans describe themselves as
• 1:05:07
  Christian. I think it's about 40%
• 1:05:09
  Protestant, about 20% Catholic. You back to the 90s and it was
• 1:05:14
  90%. So there's been a 30% drop in
• 1:05:18
  that, what is it, 35 years, even though with Gen.
• 1:05:21
  Z it's levelling out a little bit, meaning the decline is not
• 1:05:26
  continuing the way it was. It's kind of flattened.
• 1:05:28
  Out Youtubers Sean. I don't know.
• 1:05:30
  I don't know about you. For what you're doing.
• 1:05:32
  I yeah, I wouldn't claim. I would claim zero credit for
• 1:05:35
  that. I'm just trust.
• 1:05:35
  Me part. Of the team, we're all in this
• 1:05:37
  together. So I guess one thing I would
• 1:05:42
  say, there's no guaranteed evangelistic method that's going
• 1:05:47
  to make anybody pay attention. I tell people I know.
• 1:05:50
  Right. I tell people all the time that
• 1:05:53
  even Jesus let the rich young ruler walk away.
• 1:05:58
  That's a powerful truth to learn.
• 1:06:00
  So again, I'm to be faithful and to engage people and to be an
• 1:06:03
  apologist, hopefully love people, leave the results to
• 1:06:06
  God. So in in some ways, I should
• 1:06:12
  have said this a while ago. When I'm talking with people, I
• 1:06:17
  want to find out what their experience with Christianity is.
• 1:06:21
  I understand what their assumptions about Christianity
• 1:06:24
  is. I understand what their barriers
• 1:06:26
  are to believe in God and being more engaged.
• 1:06:30
  So there's a proverb that says the purposes in a man's heart
• 1:06:33
  are deep. That person of wisdom draws it
• 1:06:36
  out. So the more I do apologetics,
• 1:06:40
  again, when I'm not like formally debating, I'm just
• 1:06:42
  talking with people. I ask a lot more questions than
• 1:06:46
  I do give answers. I mean, we actually have in
• 1:06:50
  Gospels and Acts, there's 340 questions that Jesus asked in
• 1:06:55
  the letters of Paul, 262 questions.
• 1:07:00
  In the entire Bible, there's 3000 questions.
• 1:07:03
  Lila, that's pretty amazing. The God who made our Bible or
• 1:07:06
  God who made our brains tell stories and ask questions.
• 1:07:10
  So I just want to ask not like gotcha questions on when an
• 1:07:14
  argument forced you to believe. I want to ask questions like,
• 1:07:17
  when's the last time you went to church?
• 1:07:20
  What's your experience been like with Christians?
• 1:07:24
  How much do you think about God? Who do you think that Jesus is?
• 1:07:29
  How have your views about God shifted in the past 10 or 20
• 1:07:34
  years? Is there anything that would
• 1:07:36
  make you think, you know what? I want to consider the evidence
• 1:07:39
  for Christianity? So if you were to believe, what
• 1:07:41
  do you think it would be that would make you believe?
• 1:07:43
  I just want to ask a ton of questions because honestly,
• 1:07:47
  Lila, I've spent a lot of time in my life answering questions
• 1:07:50
  that people aren't even asking because I jump in and I want to
• 1:07:52
  sound smart and I give an answer and I don't really listen to
• 1:07:55
  where they are. So I just would have to ask more
• 1:08:00
  questions to people. Now, with that said, I do think
• 1:08:04
  I was just talking with a friend about like the increase in like
• 1:08:08
  what Cliff and Stewart Connectly do if you're familiar with their
• 1:08:12
  ministry on college campuses. Very cool.
• 1:08:14
  I've I I occasionally a video pops up in my social feed.
• 1:08:19
  It's. Amazing.
• 1:08:21
  And what I love about it is it's a little bit disruptive in the
• 1:08:25
  sense that they're out there on college campus talking with
• 1:08:28
  people. They're making YouTube videos
• 1:08:30
  and TikTok videos that just pop up.
• 1:08:33
  It's the person who's not necessarily seeking God.
• 1:08:35
  They might be a cultural Christian.
• 1:08:37
  They're going through the motions.
• 1:08:39
  This interrupts their life. Like it's one thing for somebody
• 1:08:42
  to say, I'm going to go watch Lila's video and listen to her
• 1:08:44
  podcast. I'm going to go find more than a
• 1:08:46
  Carpenter, Shawn, his dad's book, whatever.
• 1:08:48
  It's another thing to get interrupted with this and then
• 1:08:51
  make you stop and think about things.
• 1:08:54
  So I think we've got to find ways to appropriately just
• 1:08:57
  interrupt people who are just going through life culturally,
• 1:09:01
  not shouting them down, not being it's just the way
• 1:09:06
  Christians shouldn't engage, but just interruptions in their life
• 1:09:11
  that makes them think differently about spiritual
• 1:09:13
  things. That's what I want to do.
• 1:09:16
  And I'd love to see Christians do that even more effective.
• 1:09:18
  And there's little ways to do this even like before a meal,
• 1:09:21
  like intentionally, just publicly stopping and praying as
• 1:09:25
  a family, like just stop and do that.
• 1:09:28
  And whether you do or not, it's not my point.
• 1:09:30
  But like when Christians do that, it's kind of like, oh,
• 1:09:33
  there's something different about that.
• 1:09:35
  That's a kind of interruption. People I meet going, can I just
• 1:09:38
  pray for you? Is that OK, that that like
• 1:09:42
  people who aren't on a big spiritual search, going through
• 1:09:44
  the motions, through the busyness of life, sometimes that
• 1:09:48
  can stir people up a little bit. That's the principle.
• 1:09:52
  I guess what I would say to your question as best I can answer
• 1:09:56
  it. It's a very good way to approach
• 1:09:59
  evangelization and you, and I'm guessing too, obviously prayer
• 1:10:04
  is so helpful because you want to be open to the Spirit kind of
• 1:10:07
  prompting you a direction to have that interjection or that
• 1:10:11
  moment potentially with somebody.
• 1:10:15
  I think that's right. I think that's.
• 1:10:17
  Right. I have to ask you more than a
• 1:10:19
  Carpenter, we got to do it because, you know, obviously Lee
• 1:10:23
  Strobel has expounded on this and so many great apologists
• 1:10:26
  like yourself are doing this. And I, I just love it.
• 1:10:28
  It's so powerful to explain really the historical case for
• 1:10:32
  God and and the theological case for God as Jesus, that Jesus is
• 1:10:36
  God, he's a real person in human history, etcetera.
• 1:10:38
  Give us the, I don't know, whatever seconds you want to go
• 1:10:42
  the 92nd case for Christ as God. OK, so let me take a step back.
• 1:10:47
  One of the reasons I think that book is so effective, it's only
• 1:10:51
  120 pages and it starts with my dad's story and his search for
• 1:10:56
  happiness amidst the pain and hurt he had growing up that I
• 1:11:01
  described earlier. He starts with that and it just
• 1:11:04
  grabs people. And in that book, what it does,
• 1:11:08
  it's it's kind of like his journey a little bit like Lee
• 1:11:11
  Strobel is a journalist doing this.
• 1:11:13
  So he's takes you on this journey with him more than a
• 1:11:16
  Carpenter is a little bit like this, like this skeptic who's
• 1:11:19
  trying to figure things out and then debates it on a college
• 1:11:21
  campus. So it's just interesting.
• 1:11:24
  I think that's what it does. It's meant like you could read
• 1:11:26
  it on a flight from California to Dallas in 2 1/2 hours.
• 1:11:30
  Just read it quickly. The case for Christ.
• 1:11:34
  I mean, if somebody asked me really quickly, who do I think
• 1:11:39
  Jesus is, I would say, First off, realize that Jesus is the
• 1:11:44
  most influential person who's ever walked the earth.
• 1:11:50
  He's influenced music more, art more, history more architecture,
• 1:11:55
  more governments, more families, more.
• 1:11:58
  No one has shaped the world more than the person of Jesus.
• 1:12:03
  He had no government position. He had no military power.
• 1:12:07
  He was a Carpenter and he walked the earth for three years.
• 1:12:11
  Have you ever just read the Gospel of Mark or John and asked
• 1:12:16
  yourself, who is this person Jesus?
• 1:12:20
  When you do so, you uncover this person that not only has
• 1:12:23
  compassion and care that seems supernatural, he makes these
• 1:12:29
  radical claims. Other people have told you how
• 1:12:32
  to get to God. Jesus says the Father and I are
• 1:12:38
  one before Abraham was born. I am, and they want to stone
• 1:12:43
  him. He claims other people did
• 1:12:46
  miracles, but Jesus did miracles by his own authority.
• 1:12:50
  I can forgive sins you commit against me.
• 1:12:52
  But Jesus had the authority to forgive sins committed against
• 1:12:57
  God. He claimed to be the eternal one
• 1:13:01
  in human flesh and he did miracles and fulfill prophecy
• 1:13:06
  and ultimately rose from the grave to back it up and show
• 1:13:11
  that this is true. The most important question,
• 1:13:15
  Lila, I was on this cruise recently with Christians and
• 1:13:18
  Jews. It was really interesting and it
• 1:13:20
  was a it was a cruise with Prager before Prager had his
• 1:13:24
  accident. And I had a chance to speak
• 1:13:27
  there and I did a whole session on just the power of asking
• 1:13:30
  questions. So in the next session somebody
• 1:13:33
  goes, well, who? What do you think is the most
• 1:13:34
  important question? I said, well, you're asking a
• 1:13:36
  Christian apologist, so I'm going to tell you what I think.
• 1:13:39
  And I know Dennis would have wanted me to answer truthfully.
• 1:13:42
  And he's and I said the most important question is who do you
• 1:13:46
  say that I am? I think Jesus claimed to be God
• 1:13:51
  and he gave the evidence to back it up and as a result has
• 1:13:56
  changed more. And one last thing I'd say about
• 1:13:58
  this. This is longer than the question
• 1:13:59
  you asked. For no, it's beautiful, but.
• 1:14:01
  What's amazing about Jesus is he's the only religious figure
• 1:14:07
  that everybody wants a piece of. No one outside of Buddhism
• 1:14:11
  claims Buddha, except maybe New Agers.
• 1:14:14
  Nobody outside of Hinduism claims Krishna.
• 1:14:16
  No outside of Islam claims Muhammad.
• 1:14:20
  But within Buddhist Jesus was an enlightened 1 Within Hinduism.
• 1:14:24
  Jesus was a kind of God or an avatar so to speak, within
• 1:14:30
  Islam. Jesus is the virgin born,
• 1:14:33
  miracle working prophet. And yet Christianity Jesus, he's
• 1:14:40
  like the religious figure that rises above all the rest and
• 1:14:44
  everybody wants Jesus on their side.
• 1:14:46
  So my question is not do you have Jesus on your side?
• 1:14:50
  But for those watching, are you on the side of Jesus, of who he
• 1:14:54
  actually claimed to be? Wow, that's a that that is the
• 1:14:59
  that is the statement to end with.
• 1:15:01
  I can't think of a better That was beautiful.
• 1:15:03
  Thank you, Sean. Thank you for your ministry and
• 1:15:06
  just going all out for God and following so faithfully in your
• 1:15:09
  Father's footsteps. Honor to be here, love what you
• 1:15:12
  do, keep up the good work. This has been a treat.
• 1:15:14
  Before we close, I have to ask you, where can people find you?
• 1:15:16
  And you have books, you're an author.
• 1:15:18
  Can you give us the direction of how we can find those as well?
• 1:15:21
  Sure, the hub would be my website seanmcdowell.org which
• 1:15:24
  links to my Instagram account. And I don't just do cat videos.
• 1:15:28
  I'm trying to equip people and answer questions and give
• 1:15:31
  resources. It connects to X.
• 1:15:34
  I'm on TikTok dropping videos. If you're there, I don't spend a
• 1:15:37
  lot of time responding, but I post stuff there.
• 1:15:39
  If you're on TikTok, I have a YouTube channel that's actually
• 1:15:42
  one of my favorite ones and just did an interview with you, which
• 1:15:45
  is awesome. Can't wait for folks to see
• 1:15:48
  that. That's one of my favorite venues
• 1:15:51
  is YouTube. But if people are watching, some
• 1:15:53
  of your staff was trained there. We'd love to have people come
• 1:15:56
  study apologetics with us at Talbot online and in person.
• 1:16:00
  I think one reason you are so bold in your faith is you know
• 1:16:05
  what you believe and why you believe it.
• 1:16:07
  That's how we can avoid being, I think, jerks to people out of
• 1:16:10
  insecurity. And we can speak truth boldly
• 1:16:13
  when we know what we believe and why.
• 1:16:16
  So we want to train as many people as we can.
• 1:16:18
  If anybody's watching wants to get trained, just look us up and
• 1:16:22
  we'd we'd love to have you. Thank you so much, Sean.
• 1:16:25
  A huge thank you to our partner. EWTNEWTN is the largest
• 1:16:29
  religious network reaching millions of people with the
• 1:16:32
  truth of the faith, entertainment and news.
• 1:16:35
  Check themout@ewtn.com.