Latest / Cinema Yūgen / From Laptop to Bunker: Matthew Warner’s DIY Sci‑Fi Revolution

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From Laptop to Bunker: Matthew Warner’s DIY Sci‑Fi Revolution · Cinema Yūgen

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G'day. That's right. It's that time again. Time for... CINEMA! YOOGEEEAAAAAAA!
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Yes, welcome back, Eugenites. When the world ends, one man wakes up.
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Matthew Warner is a rare breed, a true one-man studio, a high-octane CGI engine
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of imagination and precision.
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The Cryonic Pharaoh is a chilling, elevated sci-fi nightmare born from Warner's own short story,
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where a man emerges from a 10,000-year cryogenic sleep to find the entire team
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he was entombed with, if you will,
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dead, and his memory erased.
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Trapped in an underground bunker,
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reality fractured, as buried truths claw their way back to the surface.
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Is he humanity's last hope or its greatest mistake? A sterile psychological
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descent echoing THX 1138, the shining Pandoraman passengers.
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Bold, unsettling, unforgettable, Matthew Warner proves what happens when one visionary can do it all.
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Please welcome the one man studio, the multi-talented Matthew Warner.
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Hello. Thanks for having me on, Kent. Mate, good to have you. Pleasure to be here.
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Really, really, really, really, really. And you'll eventually see it when it
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goes on the website, how much I enjoyed your film, The Cryonic Pharaoh.
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And when I went down the rabbit hole of, of, of watching and then checking out
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your website and everything, I was like, man, this dude is really interesting.
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He's doing lots of cool things. Had to talk to you about it.
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Thank you for coming. Sure.
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Yeah, my pleasure. In doing so. So, yeah, tell us, tell our audience,
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yeah, a little bit about yourself, your journey to where you are at now.
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Wow. Well, as we were talking a little bit. You know, you don't have to tell
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your whole life story. That's all right. The condensed. How can I summarize
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it? Short, short version.
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Well, I am a 52-year-old father living in Shenandoah Valley,
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Virginia. I started with a journalism background, graduating from university
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with a degree in that and went through lots of different careers.
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But the through path of all of this is that I've always been writing,
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always been interested in writing fiction and getting published professionally.
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So in that time, I've kind of bounced through a lot of different types of writing.
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I've written about, I don't know, 10, 11 books, most of them novels and horror
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and science fiction, a bunch of short stories that have been collected on a few collections.
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And I've also been fortunate enough to have a few stage plays produced,
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including a slapstick comedy play about pirates got put on by the University of Zurich a year ago.
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Yeah, so that was a lot of fun to go out and see that.
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Stop that you're just too talented.
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Well, thank you. But it's, you know, whenever I feel like I'm getting in a rut,
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it's nice to change formats.
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Right. And it's nice to shake up the way that you pursue creativity.
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And the cryonic pharaoh was kind of a natural outgrowth of that.
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And that started as a 5,000 word horror short story about 2014.
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And I submitted a couple places and then I was on ice for a number of years
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and it finally got published in the Spoon Knife Six anthology.
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But that was something that like right away it appealed to me in the sense of
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there's a the story is about a man who wakes up after a 10,000 year cryogenic
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freeze and he wakes up in an underground bunker underneath the desert.
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And it's been so long that he has some amnesia, so he doesn't really remember how he got there.
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But he looks around and he finds that all the other people who should be in
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all the little freezing units around him, they're all dead.
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And what's more is they've all been murdered violently. And he uncovers evidence
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right away that he's responsible.
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I mean, there's literally blood on his hands.
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So his memories start to come back and he starts to remember why he killed these
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people. And basically it was
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psychotic and he's dealing with the guilt that's going along with that.
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And then he's experiencing, they may be hallucinations, they may be ghosts.
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And then there's the ultimate question is, did somebody else survive in the bunker along with them?
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So in a way, this is kind of like a science fiction haunted house story taking
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place in an underground bunker.
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So right away when that story came out, I was like, you know,
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this would make a pretty cool movie.
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And of course i wrote the script and sent
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it around and got a little bit of nibble on it
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but then nothing ever happened with it so this is
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the short film script or did you write a feature version it was the short film
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script it came out to and basically an unshootable length of about 40 minutes
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right it's it's neither long enough to be a feature nor is it short enough to
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be a short film but that's just what it what it came out to be it's a novella
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film it's a novella film exactly.
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So, and I think the screenplay is actually an improvement on the short story, but.
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So there, so, so I apologize for not having read this.
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But is it, is it, is the story much changed?
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It's essentially the same. I mean, there are some details that had to change for the movie.
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Like in the short story, there were like 300 people in the bunker down with them. Oh, I get it.
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Right, right. So scary. And in the movie, there's 30. Yeah.
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And some other details had to be changed in order for it to make sense.
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Right. But it's basically the same. The short story is written in epistolary format.
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So the title of the short story is Diary of the Cryonic Pharaoh.
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And it's written. And he's like, oh, the computer tells me I need to start making
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these entries to make my memory come back. Well, OK.
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You know, I woke up this morning and everyone's dead.
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I know my name is Gerald and I know how to speak, but this doesn't it's not
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calling up any what's going on with me.
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And then and then diary breaks and something really bad happened to me today and so forth.
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So in the script, it's there's a lot of scenes where he's actually looking at
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the camera and he's recording.
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A diary and he's saying, I'm worried about what's going to happen when my memories come back.
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Or then one day he opens up the diary and he finds out that somebody's vandalized his diary.
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Somebody's been writing in it and saying, we're coming for you.
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And then it's like, well, what, did I write that? Or did somebody actually write
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that? You know, so, and he's walking around and hearing things.
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So, you know, I'm not, of course not going to spoil it for you,
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but that, that's the kind of the setup that's happening here so i know of course
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couldn't find a film studio to do it but i never gave up hope on it and something
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really remarkable happened in the last few years that the technology for making an animated film,
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became advanced enough and cheap enough for somebody like me to do it in his
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basement, in his office.
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I mean, I'm talking to you on the laptop that I used to make this film.
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It was like, you know, just an ordinary laptop I use for work.
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And then you get, you know, an iPhone camera. You don't even need an iPhone
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anymore for facial motion capture.
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You need some way to capture your body motions if you're doing my motion capture
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basically is what i'm doing and you can do it from video to motion you could
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just film yourself walking around and then that can get.
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Transformed into motion capture data to move little animated skeletons around
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or you could do a light like i did i decided to go buy the two thousand dollar
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motion capture suit from rococo which is a company in like denmark or something
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like that and and then that captures and then You get fingers,
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you put on gloves, and they capture your hand movements.
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And then you put a thing on your head called a head rig, although some people
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make, like, helmets and stuff for you to basically hang the cell phone or the
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camera in front of your face.
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So you have a lot of time.
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Yes, exactly. So this is exactly the kind of way I think that they filmed,
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say, Avatar or Lord of the Rings and so forth.
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But now, instead of having a super-duper expensive motion capture rig,
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I got something that just hangs in my closet and I bring out whenever I want.
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You're like a do-it-yourself, James Cameron. You can do it yourself.
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And then, of course, there's all the technical skills that go along with this.
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Learning this has been a huge journey because I didn't know anything about this.
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My background is in writing and website design, none of which had anything to
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do with 3D motion catcher-based animation. Mm-hmm.
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So that's in a nutshell, that's my journey there, where it brought me here. Wow.
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That's incredible. You know, James Cameron doesn't do what James Cameron does for James Cameron.
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James Cameron does what James Cameron does, because James Cameron is James Cameron.
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But that's incredible. So you basically spent then, what, a couple of years,
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a couple of months, like however long, learning the tech, what, experimenting first?
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Or did you just sort of dive straight into like doing a scene or something like that or.
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Pretty much i kind of learned on the job you know
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i i i said that this is what i want to do and
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it took me it took a few months researching workflows i'm
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like how do you make an animated movie all
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the different software packages out there sure and
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ultimately what what i decided to do was to
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make this in by the same way that people make cut
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scenes in video games right okay so
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you can download and install unreal engine
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for free and use it okay epic
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games will take a cut of your like your game proceeds and your film proceeds
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if you make a million dollars and then it's like a 10 or whatever that is until
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that point you can use it for free if you make a million dollars right wouldn't
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that be a nice problem to have yeah yeah oh gee whiz yeah right so you can,
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you have to have the patience to learn it it's it's an incredibly complex
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program and if your machine is not
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quite up to spec it can be causing things to
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crash on you constantly but i
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built built my sets as if i were making set pieces for a video game really right
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and which relieved me a lot of the burden of having to learn like 3d modeling
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and sculpting using programs like blender which are also free by the way and
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i had to do some little things in blender so there's a whole lot of time spent on YouTube.
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You know, like, how do I do this? How do I do taking a course on Udemy?
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You know, something like that.
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So you can install and build a lot of these things from stock assets.
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There are people who are immensely talented that all they do.
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Is they create these wonderful creations in 3D animation. They sculpt things.
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You can download, install them, and manipulate them in VR or on your machine
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in Unreal, and then you can build your environments. Or you can buy prefabricated
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environments. Oh, I like that.
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Yeah, so fab.com is now sort of the premier place, the online marketplace you
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go to to buy stuff, and you can get tons of stuff for free.
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And they release just thousands of dollars worth of free stuff every month for a limited time.
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And so now I have this immense virtual warehouse of graveyards and castles and
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spaceships and characters and visual effects and props and all these things
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that I can just pick and choose from the next time I want to make a movie.
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And then I can kitbash them all together. There's my spaceship set.
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And then I'll get the wheelchair from over here and I'll get the get the block
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from over here and the pickaxe from over there.
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So like in the Cryonic Pharaoh, for instance, one of the main props is the what
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they call the cryo coffins.
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OK, so these are the cryostasis things that you you sleep in. Right.
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And you can buy cryostasis, things like that from places like Sketchfab and
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Fab and whatnot, but they they weren't quite right.
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And and they cost too much. Right. I mean, I made this entire film for less
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than six thousand dollars.
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Right. So it's a no budget film. And I made other ones even cheaper than that since then.
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So I'm like, well, how can I make this asset? I'm not a 3D artist. So I ended up.
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I downloaded a modular set for like if you wanted to make a town in the old west,
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and okay so there was like an old west environments and horses and among them
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there was coffins just made out of wood and so i could drag that into my environment
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with unreal engine and say okay how can i make this look sci-fi so i downloaded a shattered glass.
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Material and mapped that onto the lid. So now instead of a wooden coffin lid,
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it's glass and it's shattered because, you know, Gerald had been merrily destroying
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the cryo coffins with people in them.
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And then I downloaded free metal materials from Quixel Bridge and then I mapped
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them onto the body of the cryo coffin, which made it look steel with glass,
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added some pipes, put a little glowing panel on the side and I'm done.
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You know, it was like no budget filmmaking right except it's
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all that digital it's all virtual it's all digital it's all
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virtual yeah sorry yeah yeah so now i've done some real
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filmmaking in the in the past where
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i worked with dark stone productions here in virginia right he was making a
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remake of plan nine from outer space which which you can find now you can go
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like on like the amazon i think and find it right and um He commissioned me
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to write the novelization of that film. Oh, sweet ass.
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Yeah, but that's another story. I'll have to check that out.
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Where can we get it? Is that like on Amazon?
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Yeah, you can find that. If you go to my website, MatthewWarner.com,
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and go down to Novels, you can find it right there.
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And there's links to where you can watch the film online and so forth.
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Oh, sweet ass. I'll have to go. Yeah.
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I'll put it in that rabbit hole. Yes, sir. And I was an extra as a zombie in there.
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It was a lot of fun. And there's a lot of guerrilla filmmaking sometimes and,
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you know, learned about, watched people film and cameras.
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And you realize that there's so much planning that goes into building, making a film.
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You know, you are limited by your access to work.
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Locations you're limited by your access to
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your actors and so as we you
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know as you learn you don't film everything everything is
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out of order yes so i only got this actor for
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one day so we need to film every single scene involving
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this actor on this one day and and maybe narratively
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it doesn't make any sense at all right during on
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that day right so you have all kinds of continuity editors
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and reference photos and all this stuff and and
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what's cool about making a film like the cryonic pharaoh
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is i don't have to film things out
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of order if i don't need to right you don't have to worry about rain cover sets
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and transporting actors and the set's always there all i gotta do is say oh
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i'm downstairs and open your laptop open the laptop call up the castle environment
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it and do the next scene in order as I want.
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And then the next day I could be on another set and then come back to the castle. It doesn't matter.
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Um, now I did do some stuff out of order because one of the biggest frustrations
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of making an animated film is of course, is the technology.
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And when I started doing it, I had no idea how am I going to capture my facial
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animations when I'm acting? Am I going to have to do that separately?
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Am I going to have to ADR things? I didn't know.
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So I did something like I ordered the head rig, the thing that holds the cell
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phone in front of your face.
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And that took months and months and months because there was huge demand for it.
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And everyone who was on the Rococo discord just kind of lost their minds,
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including me as we're waiting for this thing. I had paid, you know,
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how many hundreds of dollars for this?
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And so I said, while I was waiting, that's when I did things like, I know what I can do.
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I can go ahead. I can spend this time building my environments.
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How am I going to make that coffin, by the way? I have no idea how to do that.
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Maybe I'm going to take a course, you know.
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And so this is why it doesn't matter whether you're making an animated film
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or you're making a real film.
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You got to have really good record keeping.
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The lists and logs that you keep, spreadsheets.
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You know, if you're only going to have, you know, Kent Hill,
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the actor with you on Tuesday and you have to marshal every single scene where
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you got to get all your shots of Kent, then you got to be able to reorder things immediately.
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And I had to had to do that kind of similar stuff, too.
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What scenes have I already done mocap? Which ones have I already staged on Unreal
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Engine? which ones have I already rendered out and put onto my film editor timeline.
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But after a while, like I said, once I had all the tools, I had everything I
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needed to do, I could just sort of go in order, which had its own benefits in
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terms of, you know, story continuity.
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So it's a wonderful, fascinating process to make a film, as you know.
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I mean, learning how to operate cameras.
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Like, have you ever seen this book? I wanted to show you the visual story. Yes, I have. I have too.
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I have seen it in red, yeah. It is so awesome. I mean, there's just pictures
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in here describing the differences between camera angles and color grading and
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visual contrast and balance.
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And you can do all of this stuff in like Unreal Engine or Unity because you
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have these little virtual cameras.
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You can move through these environments and you can do rack focuses.
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You can do camera movements.
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And of course, you know, you can act things out. And the technology is so good.
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And this is what was really exciting for me and making this film is that I was
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able to do all the acting myself.
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Right. You're talking about the one man studio. I could just put on my mocap
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suit and do Gerald, the main character.
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The next day I could be his girlfriend and map all my emotions onto her body
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and then use like altered AI to change my voice into a woman's voice.
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Right. And go on and go on like that.
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And, uh, that's what was so, so cool about it. It's, it's kind of dizzying the, the, the prospects.
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This is sort of opened up for creatives now, wouldn't you say? Like.
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Yes. The sky is. I don't think it was verified. is the
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sky is no longer the limit is it that's right
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it wasn't like this five years ago i mean
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all this stuff has really come about kind of
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the things that they did with unreal engine this is like a quantum leap as it
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is yeah and it's so cheap yeah so i so cheap i can do it quantum that's cheap
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right so the next big frontier of course is that which people are very concerned
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about is the introduction of AI.
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So you have generative AI, which you can use for film production and audio production
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and image production and so forth.
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And I'm not one of those people who is going to just automatically put my fingers
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on a cross and say, no, stay away, not touching AI. I want to learn about it.
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I like to keep an open and curious mind about things. And how can I leverage
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these tools to my advantage?
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Maybe the next time I make a movie like the Cryonic Pharaoh and Unreal Engine,
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if I need help with a special effect or a particular shot or whatever,
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I can get AI to help me do it instead of fighting against it.
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You know, you can mix these tools together.
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So I'm always interested in creative systems. How do I build things?
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What are better procedures for doing things? Yeah.
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So what Sir Ridley Scott is definitely true. There's absolutely no excuse now, hey?
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There's not. And I know that there's pressures on the film industry, okay?
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And this comes back to AI. It comes back even if AI never existed.
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And there were a bunch of Matthew Warners like me making their own motion animated
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films with like video game technology.
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Somebody's not going to be happy because somebody is not being paid to be a
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photographer or to be an actor because i mean because mainly it comes down to
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the data sets it comes down to what the ai is using to generate said,
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Yeah, that's one aspect of it, too, is the intellectual property.
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So you're familiar with Claude AI, right? It's like ChatGPT.
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Okay, so there is a big settlement from a class action lawsuit here in the United
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States from in the fall, where apparently they acquired a bunch of people's
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novels and short stories,
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including a few of mine, to become training data for Claude AI.
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And this is pretty well publicized like on facebook
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you can go to this website and search for your copyright registration number
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or your title and you'll find oh my god they used you know the organ donor my
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first novel as training data right and and and the reason they know that is
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because they trace these back through see these pirate lib gens where they just they are,
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torrented or whatever improperly a copy of
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one of my a couple of my novels bloodborne it's
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like my third novel that's on there that was on there too so i've
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now you know officially a registered member of the
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class and there's a disbursement fund and of course anthropic disclaims responsibility
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but i may get a few thousand dollars per infringement now i mean i mean if so
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that would be the most money i've ever made for my writing you know so i'm kind
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of excited yeah i I know that story.
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Does that mean I'm going to stop using Claude AI? Hell no.
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Hell no. No, I use ChatGPT all the time.
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I get its help in coding. I'm learning about generative AI filmmaking,
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and you get it to write the prompts for you. It's wonderful.
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Look, I just reviewed a film recently that uses AI for ostensibly matte paintings.
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Yeah it's it's ostensibly i mean like using
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ai you could essentially have like your version
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of the volume right because the what
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is the volume except a giant room where you have like a oh yeah big screen a
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matte painting that moves like it can but the clouds can move the sun can move
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the lighting can change the you know
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you can change the terrain i mean essentially there there is there is a.
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A non-evasive non-skynet future
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in this where where and i
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have seen it i have literally this last night seen
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it where independent filmmakers who
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who want to make genre films fantasy
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horror western regardless shoot against
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green screen and literally you know
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supplant their live action footage onto
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these ai generated whether it be you know
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filler for the background for the part that they can't afford
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or cutaways of shots to add
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you know depth and and drama it's
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fascinating and you mentioned a couple different technologies
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there one is of course green screen which is
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an old technology where you just you key
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out the green and you replace it with your other plate or whatever
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sure and the other one which is what we're
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coming back to unreal engine has been
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our what do you call virtual volumes virtual production so you have like they
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did this with the mandalorian where you have a sound stage and they have these
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massive tv screens that wrap around the whole stage and they just play footage
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on there and the people are acting in front of it like they're on stage.
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Which gives them the benefit of real world white bounces rather than something
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you would have to do in post. Right.
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And it makes their acting better. So they're not acting against them.
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Some crazy. Instead of, instead of the old days, like for instance,
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with, you obviously must have seen sky captain in the world of tomorrow where
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it was all blue and they have reactive light on the actors and then add. Yeah. Yeah.
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The background so now the volume
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allows you the reactive light is there so you don't
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have to film them with the reactive light because the light
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source is changing because of the way it is projected on
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the stage right and so that's where of course like epic games and unreal they
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are really trying to corner that market they have people who specialize in making
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these cinematic backdrops sure so you're you're doing everything digitally and
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you're building things out and then And you have, you know,
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the guy with the Mandalorian outfit, he's reaching towards something on the
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screen and the cut, you know, that's your that's your scene.
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So I don't have the money for that. And I probably won't.
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I am not going to be setting up a green screen here in my office or a giant
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LED screen to act in front of.
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So I'll probably just be retargeting my animations into virtual environments for a while.
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I'm not, you know, and that's that's the way animation is. I'm not as worried about photorealism.
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Although if you watched The Crying at Pharaoh, it's just going to go with my
27:16
YouTube channel now on March 26th.
27:19
Cool. I've done with the festival run. I just want to put up there for people to enjoy.
27:23
But you'll see that the like the metahumans that I use for the actors, they do look.
27:30
Pretty realistic, but not quite. You know, there's kind of uncanny valley, right?
27:36
So that the big challenge in animating meshes like that is, you know,
27:43
getting them to move in believable ways.
27:45
So you go through this process called retargeting, where you capture motion
27:49
capture data from like either a suit or you can download.
27:53
I'm downloading a walking cycle, a jumping asset.
27:56
And then you take that and you translate the
28:00
information the movement information from that skeletal mesh
28:03
onto the skeletal mesh that you want cool and
28:06
what are the most and so there's always a lot of corrections that go along i
28:11
mean it's just like oh my hands clipping through my clothes or i i made i succeeded
28:16
unintentionally in making some john carpenter think creations from the things
28:20
like these really weird contorted bodies just kind of quivering around i was
28:25
like what the hell did I do?
28:26
Oh, I had my translation targets off or something like that.
28:29
But one of the most challenging things to retarget are facial animations.
28:34
Cool. Right. And that's where acting lives, right, is in the face.
28:38
And particularly when I'm talking and if I have my character talking and using
28:42
my voice, you want to see his lips sink to mine in a believable way.
28:47
And when I started the Cryonic Pharaoh, that was like,
28:51
I didn't know really how I was going to do it there were
28:53
some products out there that kind of approximately did it
28:57
maybe i was just gonna have to live with some poor animation but
29:01
then they came out with metahuman animator which is this thing that rides on
29:05
unreal where you just you put the camera in front of your face and you when
29:10
you just hit record and you and you do your clip and it captures your voice
29:16
and your camera captures video of your face.
29:20
If you're using the iPhone, it's also using depth capture data.
29:25
It solves all of that using the audio to help.
29:29
And then it will dynamically create all the motion data for the animation of
29:34
the face, which then you can retarget onto the facial skeleton of the metahuman.
29:40
So I'm every performance you see in the movie of like my character walking around
29:47
and walking and talking or reacting is actually two simultaneous recordings playing at once. Wow.
29:53
There's one that is the body, including the head moving around.
29:58
And then there's the second recording, which was the iPhone working.
30:01
And then I had to separately solve both lines of animation, you know, just using...
30:07
Excuse me, using the utility, and then to play these animation assets simultaneously
30:12
on the timeline within Unreal Engine, and then to render it out.
30:17
You render out the frames.
30:19
And once you have the frames, what can you do with the sequence of frames?
30:23
You know, right? You bring it into a film editor, right? And then you can,
30:28
and then you do whatever you want to do with it. It's great.
30:31
Anyway, Matty, before we run out of time, thank you for being on Cinema Yugen.
30:35
Sure and yeah this is exciting thank you it uh
30:39
we look forward to all the work you've got everyone check
30:42
the links in the description get down to maddie's website my review coming yes
30:46
sir to filmthreat.com mate i look forward to your next work and we'll chat again
30:52
yeah thank you for uh listening to me run my mouth i really appreciate it it
30:56
was a lot of fun that's awesome keep up the Good work,
31:00
Matty. Thank you for joining us.
31:02
Check out matthewwarner.com. Links in the description.
31:07
Matty, thanks again, mate, and keep up all the awesome work,
31:11
hey? Thank you, Kent. This is a lot of fun.
31:13
Yes, Matthew Warner, the rare breed, the high octane CGI engine of imagination, the one-man studio.
31:21
Get down to the links in the description. get over
31:24
to Matthew's website to check out all of the
31:27
goodness that he's got going on and
31:31
check out the cryonic pharaoh a great sci-fi short
31:34
Matthew Warner what a talented man let's hope he keeps on going get down to
31:39
the links in the description and as always my little eugenites thank you for
31:45
listening to us on Spotify iHeartRadio or wherever you choose to listen to your
31:50
favorite podcasts, I'm Kent Hill,
31:51
and until next time, you've been listening to us on.
31:56
Cinema, Yuge!