Latest / The Virtual Couch / Genuine Curiosity: Not All Questions Are Equal – Are You Trying to Understand, Defend, Manipulate, or Control?

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Genuine Curiosity: Not All Questions Are Equal – Are You Trying to Understand, Defend, Manipulate, or Control? · The Virtual Couch

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  Music.
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  Welcome to another episode of Virtual Couch Presents. I am your host, Tony Overbay.
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  I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified mindful habit coach,
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  writer, speaker, husband, father of four, and host of several podcasts about
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  mental health, relationships, emotional maturity, navigating faith crisis,
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  you name it, all those wonderful things.
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  But today we're going to dive into a topic that I will guarantee,
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  I'm not a big all or nothing guy, but I believe everyone has experienced this,
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  whether you realize it or not.
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  So here's a quick question to start us off. Have you ever been in a conversation
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  where somebody asked you a question that the words were words that sounded like a question?
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  And if you were writing this out, there would be a question mark at the end.
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  Technically, it sounded like they were being curious, but something just felt off.
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  Like maybe your partner said, so you really thought that outfit was a good choice
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  for dinner with my parents?
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  Or your boss asks, I'm very curious about why you would actually approach a
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  client presentation like that and assume that they would like it,
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  that they would appreciate it, or that you would get that deal.
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  Or maybe it was something subtle, like a friend saying, so that's your opinion. That is fascinating.
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  That is interesting, really. So that's honestly how you feel.
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  Or one of my personal favorites, this one is guaranteed to not land well.
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  So you already cleaned up this. So is this like what you call clean. So that kind of thing.
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  That's what I want to talk about today. The difference between genuine curiosity
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  and then performative or even defensive questioning.
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  Because I see this so often in my work as a couples therapist and just as a human being.
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  And I think that understanding and being genuinely curious can be a very big
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  game changer in a relationship.
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  Let me start with a story that I think taught me a lot about curiosity.
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  And more about what it wasn't, it was many, many years ago.
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  I was at one of my daughter's high school track meets. And at that point in
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  my life, I won't say embarrassingly so, but I would say definitely so,
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  my identity was pretty wrapped up in being a runner and not just a casual one.
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  Now I realize what was I running from? But this is when I had run over 100 marathons
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  and ultra marathons and done 24-hour fundraising events on the high school track
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  to bring in money for the local schools.
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  And I had competed in the famed Super Bowl of 100 milers, the Western States
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  100 miler, which was kind of in my backyard at the time around Auburn,
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  California, not once, not twice, but three times.
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  And running wasn't just something that I did. It was really a part of who I was.
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  Whenever I would interact with others, we would pretty much talk about running
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  and I would even sometimes feign frustration of, oh my gosh,
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  is that all that they want to talk about? But let me keep talking about it.
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  But here I am, I'm standing on the infield of a track and I'm watching the events unfold.
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  And a guy that I kind of knew, one of those that in small towns,
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  you feel like you think, I've seen this guy around. I know who he is,
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  but we've never really talked. We just give each other the head nod.
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  And he comes up to me and our kids were both running and I thought,
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  okay, this is cool. Here's a chance to connect.
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  Now, while my identity was firmly planted in being a runner,
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  I was also well into now my career as a therapist, which I truly believe saved my life.
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  I can honestly say I believe that I was genuinely becoming more curious about people's experience.
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  And I think that was part of this cognitive dissonance of my identity as a runner,
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  but somewhat feeling annoyed that that was all we were going to talk about,
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  but probably pretty insecure that I really wasn't exactly sure what else to
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  talk about other than running.
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  So I start by asking him about his son. How long has his son been running?
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  What does he really enjoy? What kind of events he enjoys doing?
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  Because his kid was a pretty good athlete. And then casually,
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  I asked if this guy was a runner too.
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  And he seemed a little bit more bulky, looked like more of a weightlifter.
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  And so honestly, I didn't really know.
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  And then he lit up and he told me, oh, I am a runner. And I did a lot of sprints in high school.
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  I could have ran in college. I love that one. But I don't know,
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  something got in the way. and he had done a couple of 10Ks, a half marathon,
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  and he had tried one full marathon, but had gotten injured, wasn't his fault.
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  Somebody had probably advised him incorrectly of training. I was genuinely curious about his story.
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  And now I will be honest, at that point, there was probably a small part of
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  me that then hoped he would ask me about my running because that was a big part of my identity.
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  And he did acknowledge it because
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  I know that he had been at my 24-hour fundraising events a time or two.
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  And I think he had even ran around the track. People would come do that with
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  their kids at odd hours of the night.
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  And most of them would usually stop by, say hi, or I would run with him for
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  a little bit, but he didn't. I remember he would stay on the opposite end of the track.
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  But he did acknowledge that. He said, hey, I know you're a runner.
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  And I thought, okay, here we go. This will be nice. And then he starts to give
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  me a lot of running advice.
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  Specifically, things that he had noticed when I was doing my 24-hour events
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  when I had been running for 18 hours or so, 20 hours.
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  And these were specific tips on fueling and then pacing.
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  And then he started suggesting some things that I could probably do different
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  in the longer ultra marathons.
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  I thought to myself, so based on what? This is gonna sound egotistical for a moment, bear with me,
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  but based on watching me from the other side of the track or maybe from the
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  bleachers at those school fundraising runs, I don't really remember exactly
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  what his advice was because I think I was so, I don't want to say blown away.
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  It sounds so, so dramatic, but I think I was just so fascinated that that just
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  didn't really make much sense to me that my brain kind of glitched.
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  I think he named some sort of food that he thought might help me around hour
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  20 of a 24 hour run. and I remember nodding and smiling and thought,
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  okay, that would probably be one of the worst foods that I could eat.
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  I don't remember what it was.
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  I don't remember if it was, let's say that it was a curry or something like
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  that, spicy curry, when in reality you're wanting bland bananas and then gels.
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  And as he walked away, he said, this has been really nice. I've always wanted
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  to pick your brain about running. And I remember thinking, okay,
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  I don't think my brain was picked. I don't think that is what curiosity actually is.
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  I wonder that feels more like an insecurity dressed up in a curiosity costume,
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  or maybe that's some emotional immaturity, or that's a need for validation.
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  And let me go on this tangent for a minute. Let's talk about insecurity.
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  Perhaps, and I know I'm making assumptions, he may have been feeling a little
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  unsure about his own running identity.
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  And offering advice may have been his way of trying to level the playing field.
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  So instead of asking about my experience, He presented himself as somebody who
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  probably had something to teach me.
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  Now, if we're talking about emotional immaturity, one of my favorite things these days,
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  rather than being comfortable with his position as a learner,
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  if he was truly interested in ultra marathons or someone who had his own experiences
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  as a half marathoner or just basically as somebody who hasn't run ultras.
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  Is, instead, he needed to show up with something to contribute,
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  even if it meant assuming an expert role in a space that he wasn't trained in,
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  which without knowing, I knew immediately based off the things he was saying
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  that he honestly didn't know what he was talking about, which did not build
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  trust or connection or emotional intimacy between he and I.
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  If we look at this, like from a validation seeking standpoint,
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  he might've been hoping that I would go, oh my gosh, I have not thought of spicy
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  Indian curry at mile 80 when my stomach is already being really, really wild or odd.
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  That sounds amazing. You've got great insights or some way to make him feel
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  affirmed or maybe make him feel like he is an impressive individual. Here's the key though.
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  None of those are genuinely curious. Genuine curiosity asks to understand.
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  Not to be seen as smart or helpful.
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  It's more rooted in openness, not in the outcome.
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  And here's one of the big takeaways that we'll explore today.
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  We're going to talk about emotions and all kinds of things. People feel that difference.
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  There's a huge difference between asking somebody a question to understand and
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  asking a question to defend yourself, to prove a point, to win an argument,
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  or to tee yourself up so that then you can tell your stories.
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  So let me go back to that. People feel the difference. They may not be able
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  to put it into words, but their nervous system knows what's up because we are wired for connection.
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  We're also wired to detect threats. And so even a question can feel like a threat
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  if it's loaded with judgment or wrapped up in sarcasm.
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  So back to this guy at the track meet, what he wasn't doing was being genuinely
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  curious. He was asking questions.
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  Again, they would have question marks after them, but it felt like more of just a setup to make a point.
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  He was more of a, hey, let me show you what I know. then, hey,
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  tell me what it's like to do what you've done.
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  Now, as a therapist, especially when it works with couples, I'm even more aware of this dynamic.
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  And lately I've been noticing what I'm almost looking at like a big old confirmation
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  bias cocktail when it comes to how rarely we practice genuine curiosity in our relationships.
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  We're just not that great at wondering about each other anymore.
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  We're really good at talking, talking at someone, telling them what I think
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  that they are feeling or thinking, great at advising, great at correcting, but pausing.
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  Being genuinely curious, asking from a place of truly admitting that I don't
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  know or that I don't understand, that seems to be really difficult because real
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  curiosity, I think, requires a few things. It requires humility.
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  It means admitting that we don't have the answer, that we have not necessarily
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  walked in another person's shoes, which makes sense because they are the only
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  version of them. You're the only version of you.
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  We have to admit that their experience might be completely unfamiliar.
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  And I think if we're being honest, that can feel really uncomfortable,
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  Especially if we are tying our self-worth or if our self-worth is tangled up
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  in being right or being helpful or needing to contribute.
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  Here's the secret, though. Real connection, I believe, starts when you can get rid of certainty.
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  Real connection starts when certainty ends. So let's go a little deeper.
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  Why is it so hard to be genuinely curious? Let's take a look at how that shows
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  up in our relationships and then what it looks like to lead from humility.
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  And we're going to even talk about different types of humility instead of from our ego.
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  My friend Preston used to say our ego is this adorable security guard that sits
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  on the porch and just protects you.
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  But sometimes it's a little over protective or it's barking at somebody that is not really a threat.
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  Because I think if we're talking about ultra marathons or emotional gridlock
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  in our marriage, one thing is true.
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  You cannot guide someone through terrain that you've never crossed yourself.
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  So then why is it so hard to simply be curious, genuinely curious about somebody
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  else's life that they are the ones living before jumping in with advice or opinions or directions?
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  Okay, story time. I was in a couple session. It was just a few days ago and
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  we were talking through some dynamics as the couple started figuring out a few things.
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  The husband said something that honestly, I really appreciated.
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  He said that he wanted to be called out on his emotional immaturity.
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  And that, that sounds great. It's a huge step.
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  But then the very next line out of his mouth was, yeah, and you can call me
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  out. I really want to know what I'm not getting.
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  Again, sounds, sounds wonderful. But then it got really interesting after that.
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  I told the couple that I really admire when somebody in session has the courage
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  to say those things like, hey, old man, slow down, or I lost you there,
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  or that's a lot of jargon, or I honestly don't know what that means.
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  You seem pretty excited about it, Mr. Therapist, but what am I missing?
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  What does that mean to you? Because here's what that means to me,
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  because part of that therapeutic process, hopefully,
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  if you've got a good therapist, it's not about them just waxing on therapeutic
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  and you are there to just sit at their feet and learn, it's an interactive process.
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  So yes, I have a certain set of skills, I think as Liam Neeson says,
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  but I want to understand what you are understanding or what you're not understanding.
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  And I know that that can take time as well.
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  That's vulnerable. That is very real. But then the husband added,
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  he said, yeah, because sometimes, and he said, no offense, which I love because
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  that means something he's about to say, he's worried it will be offensive.
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  And then the husband adds, yeah, because sometimes I don't think you realize
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  that you're not really making a lot of sense.
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  And I thought, okay, that is a fair point, but let's break it down.
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  Because what I just heard was, sometimes when you are talking that I,
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  your client, I actually have a better understanding of what you're trying to say than you do.
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  And therefore, I reserve the right to tell you when you're not explaining yourself well.
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  And again, on the surface, if you take out my passive aggressive tone,
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  that sounds reasonable.
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  But what it feels like is, okay, I now have to work even harder to make sense
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  to you on your terms of something that you may not really understand.
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  And it's almost like he gets to sit back and his arms are folded and he's saying, no, try again.
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  I am going to actually stay defensive until you put together the exact right
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  combination of words, facial expressions, and tone that feel good to me.
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  And honestly, trust me, I've done that dance plenty of times when it was more
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  about, oh my gosh, I don't want them to think I'm a bad therapist or I really
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  want validation. I want them to tell me the way you explain things is amazing.
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  But genuine curiosity, it requires active participation, not some sort of passive resistance.
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  You know, it sounds more like, hey, help me understand.
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  Not necessarily, I don't understand. Because that comes with maybe a side order of, so keep trying.
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  Or it looks like, okay, what am I not getting?
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  Instead of me putting out this energy, if I'm the client here,
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  I need you to keep trying.
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  I need you to keep guessing, almost like a game of charades,
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  until then I can finally get it, until you make sense to me.
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  Because underneath that, you need to make it make sense energy.
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  That's often where the emotional immaturity lives.
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  Because that's the need to be made to feel better. That's the hidden win-win
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  for the more emotionally immature.
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  If I finally say something that clicks for you, then you get to say, well done.
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  You may now comfortably exist in my presence and we may continue.
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  But if I don't, if it doesn't land, and that could even be a variety of things.
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  Let's say that you are bored, you are hungry, you are lonely,
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  you are angry, you are tired, you are anxious, you're scrolling through your
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  own emotional filters of life, then that could very well be an impossible task for me.
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  Are you genuinely trying to understand me, especially in the case of,
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  let's say you're going to go visit your doctor or maybe it's the attorney,
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  the dentist, the therapist, the auto mechanic, someone that that is what you are going there for.
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  There's a somewhat of an assumption that, okay, they most likely do know at
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  least some of what they're talking about or possibly more than me,
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  the person coming to them for their services.
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  So now if I'm sitting back saying, I ultimately need to be made to understand,
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  and then I am not trying at all to try and understand, then maybe you can see
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  where all these other factors can come into play.
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  So it could be an impossible task. And then here's the kicker.
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  Now, if I, let's say as a therapist, if I get frustrated trying to explain myself,
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  now I even look more like the unstable one.
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  Or let's say that you're in a marriage with an emotionally immature partner
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  and they're the ones that are saying, I still don't get it, keep dancing, keep going, try again.
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  Then eventually I may get frustrated because you're not actively trying to understand.
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  You actually get to stay calm, even concerned. And it eventually shifts into,
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  geez, I was just trying to understand you. Sorry for caring, nevermind.
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  And now you, the person in that position of trying to explain to the person
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  who is not genuinely curious, now you start to feel like the crazy one,
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  And now the person that is not actively participating or actively being genuinely
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  curious, now you get to look like the victim.
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  So what does the person that is trying to explain in a way that you will understand,
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  what will they eventually do then? They will apologize.
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  Okay, no, you're right. I'm sorry. I'm just losing my cool. Without really understanding
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  this, I'm continually trying to explain something to you that I don't view you
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  as trying to genuinely understand. So this is a bit of a fool's errand.
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  But then that person, typically, I would then apologize.
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  You would forgive me. And you stay in that one-up position.
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  And then before we even try to have another, hopefully real intimate conversation,
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  you may have already planted the landmine of, hey, can you just promise me you
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  won't freak out this time like you did last time when all I was trying to do was understand you?
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  And then that just sends the other person walking into the conversation with
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  just a big old backpack full of anticipatory rejection and that cycle will continue.
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  So back to this couple. So I brought a little more than gentle awareness to
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  the fact that it's actually more of his job and it would mean more to him,
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  It would resonate more to him if he can be the one that can ask for clarification.
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  Now, if I sense that either of them in this couple setting detaches,
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  shuts down, looks confused because I am reading body language,
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  then absolutely, I'll check in.
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  I might ask, hey, I noticed a little sudden shift in energy or it appears that
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  you shut down right now. Tell me what you're hearing or help me understand.
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  What does that mean to you? Now, that's part of my job.
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  Here's where the real growth happens, though. It takes courage to be vulnerable
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  for that person in that chair that is interacting with the therapist.
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  Or if you're the person and you are talking with someone and you really don't
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  understand, to be able to say, I don't know, especially when you think you should know.
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  And again, nobody likes to be should on, especially shooting on themselves,
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  which speaking of running, I don't know why this just came to mind.
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  Well, actually, because I'm talking about shooting on oneself,
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  an unfortunate trail pooping incident somewhere around mile 90 of this aforementioned
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  famed Western States 100 mile endurance run.
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  I believe it was the second year that I ever ran. I came upon a runner who was
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  he was squatting right next to the trail, but he was yelling, look, look.
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  And I thought, OK, honestly, I'd rather not because it appears that he's doing
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  his business and not even that successfully right now. But man, I hear you, brother.
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  We're in this together. 90 miles does a number on those quads. Am I right?
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  But it turns out he was actually screaming, don't look, to which I thought,
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  well, then honestly, don't drop your compression shorts a half an inch off of
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  a six inch mile rutted single track trail.
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  But I digress. Anyway, back to the point. Are you actually trying to understand?
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  Maybe you're even trying to understand why did I just...
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  Tell that story. Or you might even be trying to make someone else rearrange
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  their words until you feel good about what they said.
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  I would just love to challenge you to be more aware of the difference.
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  That is where the growth begins.
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  Because let's talk about real curiosity. Real curiosity requires self-regulation.
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  Let's start here because without this piece of self-regulation,
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  curiosity doesn't even stand a chance.
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  Because real curiosity, it requires you to be able to calm your own anxiety, soothe yourself.
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  If you can't manage that inner urge to just react, defend, interrupt,
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  correct, or educate the other person, then curiosity is hijacked.
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  It gets swallowed up by reactivity.
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  I'm a big fan of David Schnarch's work of his four points of balance and differentiation.
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  And his second point of balance is really important. And it comes into play
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  here, quiet mind and calm heart.
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  If you're not familiar with Schnarch's model of differentiation of self.
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  It is all about being able to hold on to your autonomy, your own sense of self
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  in close emotional connection with others, especially when there's tension.
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  Because it is much easier, but you're losing your sense of self when you just
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  acquiesce, you give in, you fold into what the other person wants you to do
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  to make them feel better.
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  Differentiation is that ability to stay you without needing the other person
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  to become a mirror or a validator of your self-worth.
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  And let me take one step back the first point of balance that of Schnarch's
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  four points of balance of being differentiated is having a solid but flexible sense of self.
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  You know who you are, what you value, what you stand for, and you're not rigid or reactive about it.
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  And you move away from this need for others to tell you you're okay,
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  that concept of external validation.
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  The second point of balance, quiet mind and calm heart, is what allows you to
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  stay in connection with others, even when you start to become emotionally activated.
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  Because you can calm your own nervous system without needing the other person
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  to do it for you. I don't need them to tell me it's okay because I can tell myself it's okay.
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  I can ground myself. I can come into the present moment.
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  I can build in that pause because that paves the way for Shnarch's third point
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  of balance of differentiation, which is a grounded response.
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  That's where you can stay emotionally present. You can show up honestly and
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  you can respond instead of react.
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  You don't have to go too big, but also you don't have to play small.
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  You can respond. You can come from this place where you are okay.
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  So you know it is okay for you to stay in this conversation.
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  So then if we're talking again about genuine curiosity, then this is sort of the engine.
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  Self-regulation creates this pause. And in that pause, that's where you can
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  notice. You can say, okay, I'm feeling defensive.
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  But I wonder what they're really trying to say versus what I am thinking I am
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  hearing, the assumptions I'm making. Or that pause is where you can say,
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  I'm noticing this feels like an attack, but maybe they're hurting.
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  And or maybe it is honestly, I am just misunderstanding what might be happening here underneath.
• 22:07
  It's not necessarily about the literal words, but more about just this energy
• 22:12
  or this feeling that I have.
• 22:14
  That's not being passive. That is an internal type of strength.
• 22:18
  So I've been on two cruises in my entire life and I loved them both.
• 22:23
  You throw a little bit of Dramamine in me and suddenly I am floating through
• 22:26
  life with soft serve ice cream in one hand. and absolutely no idea what day it is in the other.
• 22:32
  I guess you're not holding that in your hand, but regardless, it is a perfect reset.
• 22:36
  And I also absolutely love what I do as a therapist.
• 22:39
  So when you put me on a cruise with people who would like to talk about things
• 22:44
  like mental health or parenting or relationships or faith crisis or emotional
• 22:48
  immaturity or ADHD, that along with the soft serve is my dream vacation.
• 22:53
  So if you were to see me on one of these cruises and you have a question,
• 22:57
  you are absolutely not bugging me.
• 22:59
  And true, I'm diagnosing you, but it's in the most lovable way.
• 23:03
  Now, that is why I am truly excited to be the special guest on the I See You
• 23:09
  Living Cruise, a five-night Western Caribbean cruise, January 24th through the 29th.
• 23:15
  2026, with my good friend and cruise mastermind, headliner, and I guess we could
• 23:20
  technically say maybe cruise director, Julie DeJesus.
• 23:24
  And this is honestly the best of all worlds because you're going to be able
• 23:28
  to get away from the day-to-day grind, connect with people who care about personal
• 23:32
  growth, mental health, all the things that really matter.
• 23:35
  Plus, again, you've got ice cream, lava cake.
• 23:38
  So whether you're working on your mental health or your relationship or looking
• 23:41
  to just boost your resilience, or you just need an excuse to finally take a
• 23:45
  vacation, this cruise is exactly what you need.
• 23:48
  And parents, good news, kids set sail on this one for free. So you don't even
• 23:53
  have to hunt down a babysitter.
• 23:54
  So go to julie-dejesus.com slash cruise, or you can look in the show notes of
• 24:01
  this podcast episode or in my link tree or anywhere to get all of the details.
• 24:05
  You can lock in your early bird special.
• 24:07
  You can reserve your spot for some exclusive dining and conversation with Julie and me.
• 24:11
  You can bring your spouse, bring a partner, your friends, any of your favorite
• 24:15
  overthinkers, or just bring yourself.
• 24:17
  We would love to have you there. Let's go with a couple of examples.
• 24:19
  Let's start in a marriage. If your partner says, you never listened to me.
• 24:22
  If your initial reaction is, are you kidding me? I always listen.
• 24:27
  As a matter of fact, you're the one that doesn't listen. I think you're just
• 24:30
  being overly sensitive.
• 24:31
  It's pretty obvious that's reactive. That's trying to protect yourself rather than understand them.
• 24:36
  That is coming from a place of being offended. But if you've built your this
• 24:41
  self-regulation muscle, that's where you get to take a breath.
• 24:46
  Ground yourself, pause, and
• 24:47
  then, OK, can you help me understand what you're feeling unheard about?
• 24:51
  Now you've shifted from defensiveness to curiosity, and that opens a door for
• 24:57
  connection, for more communication.
• 24:59
  Or think of this in the terms of parenting. If your teenager says,
• 25:03
  you know what, nobody in this family even cares about me.
• 25:05
  You guys all stink. then you might want to say, really, none of us care for you?
• 25:10
  Please, we do everything for you. Who pays for your car insurance?
• 25:13
  Who pays for your phone? That's just ridiculous.
• 25:16
  That is not going to build connection. That is not going to provide emotional
• 25:20
  consistency, emotional safety, secure attachment for your kid to learn how to grow and thrive.
• 25:25
  But with self-regulation in place and you build that pause in,
• 25:29
  you do feel this rising anxiety. I'm noticing that I am starting to get a little
• 25:35
  frustrated, but then you don't let that hijack or steer the conversation.
• 25:40
  You might then be able to find yourself saying something like,
• 25:42
  hey, that sounds like a pretty heavy thing to feel.
• 25:45
  Help me understand. Take me on your train of thought. What's happening that's
• 25:47
  made you feel that way like none of us really understand or support you?
• 25:52
  You have then created a moment of safety. Now, does it guarantee that the teenager
• 25:56
  will melt and some really cool music plays in the background?
• 26:00
  And then you have a connection and you eventually hug it out?
• 26:03
  Not necessarily, but you are starting to provide consistency.
• 26:06
  You've created a moment of safety. You've made space for a deeper conversation.
• 26:10
  That's the gift of this self-regulation paired with genuine curiosity.
• 26:14
  Plus, you're modeling that for your kid as well.
• 26:17
  Curiosity requires humility. This is a pretty important piece.
• 26:22
  Now, let's define humility because I'm so curious what that means to you.
• 26:28
  Because humility, in my opinion, is not weakness.
• 26:31
  It's not being passive. It's not about being walked on or being a pushover.
• 26:36
  And it's definitely not the, we'll call it the victim energy version of humility
• 26:41
  that sounds like, oh, I guess I'm just an idiot. I guess I'm just stupid.
• 26:44
  I know I shouldn't be thinking that. I never get anything right.
• 26:47
  Or, hey, I'm so sorry. Again, I know I'm probably wrong.
• 26:50
  That's not humility. I really believe that's more like a shield.
• 26:54
  It's a disarming tactic. And it's often used by the more emotionally mature
• 26:57
  people to avoid accountability or to elicit some sort of reassurance or validation.
• 27:02
  It may sound humble. It might even feel somewhat humble.
• 27:06
  But it actually places the burden back on the other person to now comfort and validate or tiptoe.
• 27:12
  Real humility. The kind that comes from differentiation, the kind that leads
• 27:17
  to genuine curiosity, looks like.
• 27:20
  Someone who says, hey, I didn't know that. Thank you for explaining.
• 27:23
  I really appreciate that. Or, hey, you're right.
• 27:26
  That's my misunderstanding. That's my bad.
• 27:29
  Or I can really see how that landed a lot differently than I had intended.
• 27:33
  And I am so sorry that that came out the way that it did. But thank you for
• 27:39
  bringing that to my attention.
• 27:40
  That version of humility is more from a place of strength and confidence.
• 27:44
  It builds trust. because when you can admit that you are a human being,
• 27:49
  imperfect, growing, learning, the other person starts to feel safer to be those things too.
• 27:55
  And in relationships, that really starts to become a turning point.
• 27:59
  Humility says, my ego doesn't need to win this round. I would rather understand you.
• 28:04
  And this is, we're in this relationship for the long haul and I'm secure enough
• 28:08
  or I'm working on it to not know something and not believe that you are now
• 28:13
  going to run away screaming and leave me.
• 28:14
  That's a doorway to connection, a doorway to intimacy and curiosity.
• 28:20
  Curiosity lives on the other side of that door.
• 28:23
  Curiosity also requires a secure sense of self.
• 28:26
  That first point of balance of David Schnarch's four points of balance of differentiation.
• 28:31
  Because the truth is, you will hear things like, oh, I thought everybody knew that.
• 28:35
  To which there's going to be a defensive answer to that. No, no, we don't all.
• 28:39
  I'm sure there are things that you don't know as well. And when one is truly
• 28:44
  secure in themselves, their response may sound something like,
• 28:48
  oh no, I didn't know that. Period.
• 28:52
  Guilt and shame. I'm often impressed more by the people who tell me that they
• 28:57
  actually don't know the difference because that's okay.
• 29:00
  Guilt, I have done something wrong or bad.
• 29:05
  Shame, I am bad. even though
• 29:08
  to me personally they are
• 29:10
  so significantly different that it truly
• 29:13
  is something that i i truly wish that everyone knew
• 29:17
  and understood because i don't believe that shame is productive at all i haven't
• 29:22
  worked with anyone where shame has been the true driver of change even though
• 29:26
  we continually shame ourselves or come from a place of shame because we think
• 29:32
  that That must be what will help.
• 29:34
  If shame was healing, then we would all be healed because we're really good
• 29:38
  at beating ourselves up.
• 29:41
  Genuine curiosity requires a willingness to not be the expert.
• 29:45
  I often refer back to this article that I've shared from Eleanor Greenberg from
• 29:49
  psychologytoday.com titled The Truth About Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
• 29:52
  And what I think is fascinating is she talked about something that probably
• 29:56
  sounds pretty crazy right now, and that is when there was a view or a concept of healthy narcissism.
• 30:03
  So I like co-opting her definition of normal, healthy narcissism,
• 30:08
  and I'm going to insert instead of the word narcissism, ego.
• 30:11
  And then we'll talk about the opposite of that. And I think you can see where
• 30:15
  one is going to lead to genuine curiosity and the other not so much. Normal, healthy ego.
• 30:21
  This is a realistic sense of positive self-regard that's based on the person's
• 30:25
  actual accomplishments.
• 30:26
  It's relatively stable because the person has assimilated into their self-image
• 30:31
  their successes that came as a result of their actual hard work to overcome real-life obstacles.
• 30:36
  And because it's based on real achievements, normal, healthy ego,
• 30:40
  it's relatively impervious to the
• 30:42
  minor slights and setbacks that we all experience as we go through life.
• 30:46
  Normal, healthy ego causes us to care about ourselves, do things that are in
• 30:51
  our real self-interest, and it's associated with genuine self-respect.
• 30:54
  One can think of it as something that is inside of us.
• 30:58
  Why I think that is significant is that when you can start to operate from this
• 31:02
  place of, I know what I know because I have really worked hard to know it,
• 31:07
  then that also comes with, so there are obviously things I don't know,
• 31:12
  and I don't know them because I don't know them.
• 31:15
  And it's okay to not know everything.
• 31:17
  And that can lead to me being curious. What it also leads to over time is while
• 31:23
  I say, hey, this is something I know, I am also leaving the door open to,
• 31:28
  I learned about this thing that I know.
• 31:31
  From a time when I didn't know it. So, I'm reserving the right to continue to
• 31:34
  learn and know more, but I'm going to stand in this healthy ego of the things
• 31:40
  I know, and I'm going to acknowledge the things I don't know.
• 31:42
  The opposite of healthy ego from this Truth About Narcissistic Personality Disorder
• 31:47
  article is pathological defense of narcissism.
• 31:51
  This is a defense against feelings of inferiority. The person dons a mask of
• 31:55
  arrogant superiority in an attempt to convince the world that he or she is special.
• 31:59
  But inside the person feels very
• 32:02
  insecure about his or her actual self-worth and this
• 32:05
  facade of superiority is so thin that it's like
• 32:08
  a helium balloon one small pinprick is going
• 32:11
  to deflate it and this makes the person hypersensitive to
• 32:14
  minor slights that somebody with healthy ego wouldn't even notice so instead
• 32:18
  somebody with this type of defensive narcissism is easily wounded they frequently
• 32:23
  take any form of disagreement as a serious criticism and they are likely to
• 32:28
  lash shout and devalue anybody who they think is disagreeing with them.
• 32:31
  They're constantly on guard trying to protect their status.
• 32:35
  Pathological narcissism can be thought of as a protective armor that is on the outside of us.
• 32:38
  The significance is the opposite of healthy ego. This pathological defensive
• 32:42
  narcissism is from a deep well of insecurity.
• 32:45
  If I think that I am supposed to know something about everything or you will
• 32:49
  think less of me or you will abandon me or you will leave me,
• 32:53
  then I'm going to make things up and hope that it goes over well.
• 32:56
  But over time, it does not build connection.
• 32:59
  It does not build genuine intimacy between humans when they try to communicate or connect.
• 33:04
  And healthy ego comes from a place of competence, of security.
• 33:10
  And I think this ties into this concept of curiosity because when someone, they lack curiosity,
• 33:17
  it's typically coming from this place of insecurity because they are afraid
• 33:21
  to ask questions because they may have to admit that they don't know something
• 33:26
  or that this other person might have a knowledge or a trait or some talent that
• 33:33
  is different than the person asking.
• 33:35
  And when we dip into the world of true emotional immaturity,
• 33:39
  even getting into the world of narcissistic traits, tendencies,
• 33:42
  and personality disorder,
• 33:43
  the problem here is that when someone has an opinion that is different than
• 33:47
  yours, then from this immature place, they think that they are right and I am wrong.
• 33:53
  As if there There's only one opinion that can be had.
• 33:56
  So now they must defend their opinion and break down mine.
• 33:59
  So back to curiosity. Hopefully you're starting to pick up on this vibe that
• 34:04
  it's not just a nice trait to have.
• 34:06
  It's not just something to think about every once in a while.
• 34:09
  It's not something that, hey, we value this in small kids. They're just so darn
• 34:13
  curious before the life's knocked the wind out of their sails.
• 34:15
  It's actually a milestone of emotional maturity.
• 34:19
  When we are stuck in this situation.
• 34:21
  Place of emotional immaturity, when we're operating from these younger frozen
• 34:25
  parts of ourselves, then curiosity feels scary or dangerous.
• 34:29
  It feels like saying, if I say, I don't know, that could open the door to judgment,
• 34:32
  rejection, feeling small.
• 34:34
  So instead I'm going to pretend to know, and I'm going to fill the space.
• 34:37
  I'm going to emotionally filibuster.
• 34:39
  I'm going to explain, I'm going to advise, I'm going to narrate,
• 34:41
  and I'm going to try to control the moment often without even realizing it.
• 34:45
  The truth is real curiosity comes from a place of security.
• 34:50
  If you are interacting with someone and they are being genuinely curious,
• 34:52
  that is somebody that is pretty secure.
• 34:55
  You cannot be genuinely curious and then desperate to protect your ego at the same time.
• 35:01
  Now, let's talk emotion. It's important to recognize emotion is not the opposite of reason.
• 35:08
  Emotion actually provides us the information that then reason can use.
• 35:13
  Let's get a little nerdy. modern neuroscience shows that
• 35:16
  emotions are processed in the brain even before
• 35:19
  the thoughts are they fire faster so before
• 35:22
  we even have a chance to rationalize something we've already felt it
• 35:25
  and often we've reacted to it i love the
• 35:28
  example of walking down a road and seeing something out of the corner of my
• 35:32
  eye that is just a length a long object and we react a visceral reaction of
• 35:38
  oh my gosh is that a snake then nope that's a stick that is miraculous that
• 35:43
  i was already reacting before I even had an idea of what that was.
• 35:47
  So here comes the psychology nerd alert. In a now pretty famous 2008 study,
• 35:54
  neuroscientist John Dylan Haynes and his team at the Max Planck Institute used
• 35:59
  functional MRI technology, fMRI brain scans, to explore the timing of human decision making.
• 36:05
  So the big question they had was, when do we actually make a decision?
• 36:08
  Is it in the moment that we think that we've decided or does the brain decide
• 36:13
  before we're even aware.
• 36:15
  Participants in this study were asked to press a button with their left or right
• 36:18
  hand, whichever one they felt the urge.
• 36:20
  And the researchers with these brain scan devices connected watched what was
• 36:26
  happening in their brains in real time. And this is just so wild.
• 36:30
  Haynes team found that the brain showed patterns that were predicting the person's
• 36:34
  choice up to seven seconds before they consciously reported making the decision.
• 36:39
  Just kind of let that one sink in a little bit. Your brain is already leaning one way.
• 36:43
  It's already preparing to act before you're consciously aware that you've decided.
• 36:48
  So in other words, the body, your nervous system, your emotional center, new first.
• 36:53
  So when we say that emotions are faster than thoughts, we're not just talking metaphorically.
• 36:58
  Your brain is already processing, reacting, queuing up, shaping behavior before
• 37:02
  your thinking brain may even catch up.
• 37:04
  And that's why curiosity and slowing things down is so powerful.
• 37:10
  It's so necessary because most of the time we're reacting before we're even
• 37:14
  aware that we've reacted.
• 37:16
  So being aware of that and learning to build in that pause, to notice that I'm
• 37:21
  starting to react and then taking that time, building that space in to then
• 37:26
  even be curious with myself first.
• 37:28
  Ooh, check that out. I was about to say this thing, but now I'm gonna put that
• 37:31
  aside, step outside of my ego and now ask questions.
• 37:36
  Now let's talk about some emotions because emotions are not all the same.
• 37:40
  They do show up in layers, primary, secondary, and one that I haven't really
• 37:43
  talked about, instrumental.
• 37:44
  So primary emotions, those are these gut, real time, raw responses to life,
• 37:48
  they are often about survival or expressing something that is very important
• 37:52
  that's been impacted, like sadness from loss or fear from threat,
• 37:55
  or even anger when a boundary's been crossed.
• 37:58
  Secondary emotions come from then how we interpret those primary feelings, how we react to them.
• 38:02
  Often they're layered on top, like shame on top of sadness or anger on top of fear.
• 38:07
  The example I love on this one is when my kids would scare me when they were little.
• 38:11
  If they jumped out and scared me and I was like, geez, guys, come on.
• 38:15
  And I express anger, That's actually more of a secondary emotion to embarrassment,
• 38:18
  that these tiny little human beings just made me lose my mind and potentially
• 38:23
  drop or spill something.
• 38:24
  But these secondary emotions, they're the emotions that we learn or we absorb
• 38:28
  based on how safe we feel expressing what's underneath.
• 38:31
  I cannot stop the jokes in my inner monologue.
• 38:36
  And I know that humor is typically a secondary emotion.
• 38:40
  That's why so many comedians have a little bit of a, maybe a darker,
• 38:44
  more tortured past because they've had to joke to make up for the feelings of
• 38:50
  sadness or not feeling like they are seen or understood.
• 38:53
  I have a theory, that's all this is, that then over time, if your secondary
• 38:58
  emotion of humor is so consistent, then does it move into your primary emotion?
• 39:04
  That then your immediate reaction is a joke.
• 39:08
  Instrumental emotions are pretty fascinating. They're used more strategically,
• 39:12
  and these are the ones that we might not even realize that we're using to influence
• 39:16
  somebody or gain control.
• 39:17
  Think of a kid who cries to get out of a task, and you sense that it's a little bit fake.
• 39:23
  My grandson, Red, who's barely over a year old, can do little cry eyes,
• 39:27
  sad eyes, and it's adorable, but it's his way you can already see of wanting to get attention.
• 39:32
  Or I don't know if it's to necessarily get out of something or maybe to get something.
• 39:35
  Or an adult who might use passive aggressive sighs or tears,
• 39:39
  not from primary pain, but to shift the mood.
• 39:42
  I am still very fascinated by interrogation videos.
• 39:45
  A lot of times my social media feeds show them. I watched one not long ago,
• 39:50
  and it was a woman in court, and she was making the faces of someone that was very sad.
• 39:56
  And the person that was in charge of this YouTube channel pointed out that she
• 40:01
  would even grab a tissue, but there's no moisture coming out of her eyes.
• 40:06
  And then when a question would be asked it was amazing how quickly she could
• 40:11
  just be right back in the present moment that these and I will sound judgmental
• 40:15
  but I will own this one but it did not appear to be how a really truly sad empathetic.
• 40:23
  Weeping person would react but it looked like this person was using these instrumental
• 40:29
  emotions as a way to try and shift the mood to move it over to about them And to be fair,
• 40:36
  they're not always manipulative, but they're often less about what's being truly
• 40:40
  felt and more about what results someone hopes to get.
• 40:43
  And not long ago, I was overhearing an adult who needed help with something.
• 40:48
  And instead of just saying, hey, is there any way that you could help me?
• 40:52
  They said, oh, I don't know what I'm going to do. And it just didn't even sound like this person.
• 40:57
  And the people that they were talking to helped them.
• 41:00
  It is fascinating to see that it was rewarded. Let me talk about anger for just
• 41:03
  a second before we move on past emotions because I really find anger very fascinating.
• 41:08
  Anger is a big one in relationships and anger is one of these that can be either
• 41:11
  a primary or a secondary emotion.
• 41:14
  Primary anger comes from something real, being wronged, being violated,
• 41:18
  being betrayed, a sense of injustice. If your partner is unfaithful and you
• 41:23
  say, I'm so angry at you, I didn't deserve this.
• 41:25
  That's primary, it's vulnerable, it's honest, it invites connection.
• 41:28
  Even if it's hard, it says I'm hurt and I need you to see that.
• 41:32
  Secondary anger, though, is more like armor. It's the lashing out in reaction
• 41:36
  to something that happened.
• 41:37
  Let's go back to this example of if I am embarrassed, if I am scared,
• 41:41
  and then I get angry. Knock it off, you guys. It's not funny.
• 41:44
  I'm angry because I'm embarrassed. It's not about trying to share this pain
• 41:50
  or be heard. It's about shielding it.
• 41:52
  And so then that one doesn't build bridges between people. It's going to burn
• 41:56
  the bridge down. It's going to put more distance between two people.
• 42:00
  Now, when we confuse the two, I'm talking again about primary and secondary
• 42:04
  emotions, or when we act from secondary emotion and then we'd call that our
• 42:07
  truth, we can start to do some damage in our relationships.
• 42:10
  It's so important to learn to recognize these emotional layers and then being
• 42:15
  honest about where your emotions are coming from because that will help you
• 42:18
  show up with more clarity and less reactivity.
• 42:20
  And as we have identified, when we can be more authentic, when we can eliminate
• 42:26
  that reactivity, when we can do that, then you can show up with more genuine curiosity.
• 42:32
  You ask better questions, ones that are rooted in genuine, wanting to know and
• 42:37
  understand somebody instead of some emotional defensiveness or trying to prove
• 42:41
  somebody wrong or defend your own fragile ego.
• 42:43
  So let's talk a little bit about how you can feel the difference.
• 42:47
  And this is where I go back to wanting you to trust your gut.
• 42:51
  Now, in the world of emotional immaturity, I covered a concept that I was talking
• 42:55
  about, emotional reasoning, or if I feel it, it must be true.
• 42:59
  And on that episode, it was part two of my exploring all things emotionally mature podcast series.
• 43:07
  I did make a distinction that I want you to start from a place of trusting your gut.
• 43:13
  The thing that I want people to be aware of, though, is that that is a childhood adaptation.
• 43:19
  That for kids, if I think mom and dad are mad at me, then they are mad at me.
• 43:22
  So then when a parent is even being very kind and gentle and saying things the
• 43:26
  kid doesn't want to hear, the kid will often say, stop yelling at me.
• 43:30
  And if you are a parent, you've inevitably got to the point where you're like, I'm not yelling.
• 43:34
  And they're saying, yes, you are. And you're so mad. I'm not mad,
• 43:36
  bud. And I'm not yelling.
• 43:38
  And then eventually you are mad and you say, I'll show you what yelling is.
• 43:41
  So that's the immature version.
• 43:43
  But I do want to start from a place of, okay, I feel it. I want to acknowledge
• 43:47
  that something seems off.
• 43:49
  So when somebody says something and you can, you start from a place of,
• 43:53
  you can tell this just feels, something feels off. You know,
• 43:56
  when there's genuine connection.
• 43:57
  And I think the genuine curiosity is just, it feels safe.
• 44:01
  Let's say we're starting from a place of you, you can tell there's a hidden
• 44:05
  agenda because that's not you being paranoid.
• 44:08
  We start from a place of that is your brain doing its job? Because our social
• 44:12
  brains are wired with a thing called mirror neurons.
• 44:15
  And while I am not a neuroscientist, I love the concept around mirror neurons.
• 44:20
  I'm acknowledging the fact that there may be parts of this that I don't even know, that I don't know.
• 44:24
  But my understanding is that these mirror neurons do help us sense what other people are feeling.
• 44:28
  It's like we're looking into a mirror or we're trying to read the room.
• 44:32
  We're trying to pick up on their energy, the subtle nuances that are there to protect us initially.
• 44:39
  So when somebody is being performative or they're being sarcastic or they're
• 44:42
  being defensive, we don't just hear it because we might definitely hear it, but we will feel it.
• 44:47
  And we want to start from that place of, I do feel it. I want to make space
• 44:50
  for that. I want to acknowledge that this something feels off.
• 44:53
  And that's why people do shut down when they sense that your curiosity maybe isn't genuine.
• 44:59
  Now, I hope that we're going to be able to have the tools to say,
• 45:03
  hey, I'm noticing that something feels off here.
• 45:05
  Tell me more about why you're asking that question or help me understand.
• 45:10
  Because your body is telling you this isn't safe.
• 45:14
  So let's build a pause in here and let's just put our guard up a little bit.
• 45:17
  Because I don't want to hand away buttons that this person can push,
• 45:21
  especially if they're in the world of emotional immaturity or even all the way
• 45:24
  up to narcissistic traits or tendencies.
• 45:27
  Because handing those buttons over, it might feel good in the moment.
• 45:30
  But then if you are in relationships where that person comes back and then uses
• 45:33
  those against you down the road, then it turns out that your,
• 45:36
  this internal radar or internal GPS of emotions was correct.
• 45:41
  Hey, everybody, let me take a quick minute to talk to the guys who are listening to this episode.
• 45:46
  I want to really hone in on the guys who are starting to wake up to the fact
• 45:50
  that something in your life just isn't quite right. Let me ask you this.
• 45:53
  Have you ever caught yourself thinking things are going to get better?
• 45:56
  Things will be better when the kids grow up or when you get in better shape
• 46:00
  or when you get the promotion or when you finally have a little more time or
• 46:04
  after you finish all eight seasons of this Netflix show that you are invested in.
• 46:09
  That is magical thinking. It'll get better later.
• 46:12
  And that's what gets people to this place where they'd feel like they're not
• 46:16
  living their very best life.
• 46:18
  So welcome to later. It is now later. It is time to do something about it.
• 46:24
  Yeah your life maybe isn't playing out the way that you thought it would and you
• 46:27
  don't know why or maybe you think that you do but nothing that you
• 46:30
  try seems to work or it actually seems to make things worse and now
• 46:32
  you're stuck kicking the can down the road and at this point you've kicked
• 46:35
  that can so far down the road that you might qualify for a guinness world record
• 46:40
  in emotional deflection but here is the truth it is time to stop letting your
• 46:44
  job your marriage your bank account your kids your fear your ego dictate how
• 46:48
  you show up in your own life i have been fortunate to work with men from all walks of life,
• 46:53
  athletes and politicians and doctors and lawyers and engineers and salesmen, you name it.
• 46:58
  And the truth is, our struggles are far more alike than you think.
• 47:02
  The key is not getting older or wealthier or more shredded at the gym.
• 47:06
  It's admitting that you need help.
• 47:08
  Now, this may sound like a riddle, but I promise you it's not because I'm actually
• 47:11
  not a very big fan of riddles.
• 47:13
  So hear me out. You don't know what you don't know. And that's okay,
• 47:16
  because how could you know what you don't know?
• 47:19
  And the things that you've learned in your life up to this point were also things
• 47:22
  that you did not know until you learned them.
• 47:24
  So it would only make sense that as you continue on life's path as a human,
• 47:28
  there is a lot more to learn. That can be an awesome thing.
• 47:33
  But for some reason, men in particular have a tough time admitting or understanding
• 47:37
  this, but it is the key to the next phase of your life.
• 47:39
  And I can guide you down that path because real change doesn't come from chasing more.
• 47:43
  It comes from learning to look inward and confronting something inside of you
• 47:47
  that I promise you, you're probably not even aware of.
• 47:50
  So that is where my emotional architects men's group comes in.
• 47:53
  I promise that I do have the tools. You just have to show up.
• 47:56
  Whether it's business, marriage, parenting, intimacy, health,
• 47:59
  finances, or friendships, the root of most of our struggles as men in particular
• 48:04
  is emotional immaturity. And guess what?
• 48:06
  We are all emotionally immature. But when you learn what it is,
• 48:09
  when you learn what it looks like, how it shows up in all the areas of your
• 48:12
  life, when you learn how to embrace it instead of running from it,
• 48:15
  everything starts to shift.
• 48:17
  So for less than the cost of one therapy session a month, you will get access
• 48:20
  to two group calls a month with like-minded men, guys who are ready to grow,
• 48:25
  with a clear, well-crafted roadmap that teaches you the things that you didn't
• 48:28
  even know that you were missing, as well as you'll have one-on-one access to yours truly.
• 48:33
  That's me. And a place to ask every question you've ever wanted answered.
• 48:36
  You name it, we'll answer it.
• 48:38
  So if you have been waiting for some sort of a sign, well, this is it.
• 48:42
  So go to TonyOverbay.com or email me at contact at TonyOverbay.com and ask about
• 48:46
  the Men's Emotional Architects group later is today.
• 48:50
  And character transforming, life-altering change is ready and waiting for you.
• 48:54
  Now let's get back to the show. Let me throw some real-life examples and we'll
• 48:57
  try to make more sense of this. So let's look at a marriage.
• 49:01
  Say partner number one says, I'm just kind of feeling overwhelmed lately with
• 49:05
  everything at home and everything at work.
• 49:07
  So if we've got their partner who is not being so curious, then these words
• 49:12
  might sound curious. Really, what exactly are you overwhelmed by?
• 49:15
  And then they might even jump in and say, I mean, I've been trying to do more
• 49:18
  around the house. I did the dishes last night.
• 49:19
  So that question can sound like an engagement, but really it's somewhat of a
• 49:24
  defensive counterattack because then it becomes about you expressing your emotions.
• 49:29
  That person saying words that could put a question mark behind them,
• 49:33
  but then it slips into their validating their own effort.
• 49:36
  They're really not trying to understand you. Now, a more curious version of
• 49:39
  that might be the partner saying, oh, you're feeling overwhelmed.
• 49:43
  Hey, tell me more about that. What has that felt like? What are you experiencing?
• 49:47
  Or tell me what's the hardest part about what you've been going through lately.
• 49:51
  That's curiosity. And hopefully you can even feel that. That's a little safer.
• 49:55
  It's more open. It's coming from a place where the person asking the questions is more grounded.
• 50:00
  Now let's, let's jump into this world of parent, teen, I don't know, showdown.
• 50:05
  So teenager, and I want to jokingly say, this is all hypothetical.
• 50:08
  I'm sure no one's ever experienced this exactly.
• 50:10
  Teenager saying, you know what?
• 50:11
  I just think school is pointless and I'm never going to use any of this.
• 50:14
  Parent, not being so curious. Oh, really? So you think everybody should just
• 50:18
  drop out and become an influencer or a YouTuber?
• 50:21
  So that is sarcasm disguised as curiosity.
• 50:25
  The more curious version is, oh man, that sounds hard. First of all,
• 50:28
  tell me how I can show up for you.
• 50:29
  Is there anything I can do right now? I really want to understand what part
• 50:33
  of school feels the most pointless right now.
• 50:36
  Let's move into example three. We will say that you're all gathered around the
• 50:40
  dinner table and you're with your friends.
• 50:42
  And somebody just says, honestly, I don't even think that college is worth it
• 50:45
  for everybody these days.
• 50:46
  Now, if you are being more performative and not curious, really,
• 50:50
  should people just drop out and then just hope for the best?
• 50:52
  I mean, I'm so curious what you mean by that.
• 50:54
  They've even said the word curious in there. And again, you could put a question
• 50:57
  mark at the end of that, but that sounds more like it's being accusatory.
• 51:01
  If you were being genuinely curious, then that is interesting.
• 51:04
  Take me on your train of thought. I'd love to know why you came up with that conclusion.
• 51:08
  Tell me what your experience is. The shift in tone and intention and emotional
• 51:12
  safety becomes everything.
• 51:14
  Let's talk about maybe a litmus test for genuine curiosity. So how do you know
• 51:20
  which kind of curiosity you are bringing?
• 51:24
  Because we will never exactly know what the other person is going through.
• 51:28
  So this is about you. It is a you thing. It's a you thing to determine whether
• 51:33
  or not the person who is asking you questions is being genuinely curious because
• 51:36
  that will go a long way with, do you feel safe enough to open up?
• 51:40
  Or even I might open up and I have to accept the fact that if that person wasn't
• 51:44
  genuinely curious, then that could come back to bite me.
• 51:47
  But if you are the person that is in a relationship.
• 51:51
  And you are the one now that is listening, I would love to help you understand,
• 51:56
  am I trying to understand this other person or am I trying to win?
• 52:01
  Am I okay if their answer challenges what I believe? Because it's okay for us
• 52:05
  to already have beliefs.
• 52:07
  We're human beings. We need to be able to check those beliefs.
• 52:11
  Step outside of that ego so that I can become more genuinely present and curious
• 52:16
  because I want to know this person.
• 52:18
  Would I ask this question even if I knew that I wouldn't get the response that I want?
• 52:24
  Because if the answer is yes to those, then congratulations because you are
• 52:27
  locked into genuine curiosity mode.
• 52:29
  That is where you are going to have a potential for genuine emotional intimacy
• 52:33
  and connection with another human.
• 52:35
  And the good news is you can rewire this. Even if your default mode has been
• 52:39
  performative or defensive, the fact you're listening to this is amazing and
• 52:45
  you can retrain your brain to show up differently.
• 52:47
  Just like these emotional styles, they're not fixed in stone,
• 52:51
  neither is your questioning style.
• 52:53
  Because every time that you learn how to pause, that you choose to pause,
• 52:58
  regulate your emotions, then ask a question from a place of openness,
• 53:02
  you're starting to rewire the way that you connect with other people.
• 53:05
  You're starting to build emotional safety. It's going to start to feel more
• 53:09
  genuine and authentic, and it will come from a place of confidence.
• 53:13
  And then you become somebody that people feel safe talking to.
• 53:16
  And that safety is what allows people to be more vulnerable and more growth
• 53:23
  minded. And it just gives you this opportunity for real connection.
• 53:28
  Let's walk through how emotional immaturity and genuine curiosity show up out in the wild.
• 53:33
  I'll give you four real life narratives and each one is going to start with a knee-jerk reaction.
• 53:38
  And then let's explore how curiosity would lead to a better path. Parenting.
• 53:43
  From explosion to exploration, you walk into your teenager's room and it's a mess. It's a disaster.
• 53:48
  Clothes, dishes. How many times have you said, hey, can you not bring dishes into your room?
• 53:54
  Or there's just empty soda cans. you could basically do like an entire archaeological
• 53:59
  dig and find things that you haven't seen for years.
• 54:03
  And there might even be new species of things that are growing or happening under their bed.
• 54:08
  So your first reaction might be, seriously, I have told you so many times to
• 54:12
  clean this up. And I just feel like you don't respect me.
• 54:14
  You don't respect this house. And you take advantage of me.
• 54:17
  That is this concept of emotional reasoning. It's black and white thinking.
• 54:21
  You feel disrespected. So you assume it is disrespect. This is what they are doing. Case closed.
• 54:25
  Now, curiosity would look like. You walk in there.
• 54:28
  Here's my opportunity for growth. I pause. I take a breath.
• 54:31
  It's necessary. I got to slow down my heart rate. I got to lower the cortisol, the adrenaline.
• 54:37
  I have to be able to be grounded in order to be genuinely curious.
• 54:40
  Hey, how's your day? Tell me what's going on here in your room.
• 54:44
  Or if you feel so bold, hey, I'm noticing your room seems a little bit disheveled.
• 54:48
  Help me understand what's going on for you today. Because you might learn that
• 54:51
  they had a brutal test. They might have had a fight with a friend,
• 54:53
  or they're just feeling overwhelmed.
• 54:55
  And now it doesn't excuse the mess, but now you're in a conversation instead
• 54:59
  of a power struggle. Tell me more, help me understand.
• 55:01
  In that scenario in particular, parenting becomes the long game, if we're being honest.
• 55:05
  Now let's talk about that in the context of marriage. Your partner walks in
• 55:09
  and they don't greet you and you react.
• 55:13
  No kiss, no hey, or are we not even doing eye contact now?
• 55:16
  So your brain probably jumps in with that observation. You make a judgment,
• 55:20
  they're mad at me. And you might even say that out loud. Okay, what did I do this time?
• 55:24
  What is going on so much that you can't even say hi to me?
• 55:26
  So maybe even, I don't know, slam a drawer or you, now make it about you and
• 55:31
  huff and puff your way out of the room.
• 55:33
  Passive aggressive. That's mind reading. That's magical thinking.
• 55:37
  That's emotional immaturity. Now, curiosity would look like this.
• 55:39
  Hey, you seemed quiet when you came in. How was your day? Take me on your train
• 55:43
  of thought. One of my favorite phrases.
• 55:45
  Is everything okay? Now, you may discover that they're just in their own head
• 55:48
  about work. It's not about you. They may not be angry at all about you.
• 55:53
  They could be ruminating or overthinking. And,
• 55:57
  The tension then has this potential to lift almost instantly and you didn't
• 56:01
  have to read their mind or play defense.
• 56:03
  What can be difficult is if you are an anxiously attached person like myself,
• 56:07
  it can be difficult to not check in if they aren't completely better in your
• 56:11
  opinion in five or 10 minutes.
• 56:13
  That's when you're going to want to check yourself and not continue to say, are you sure?
• 56:18
  Because you sure seem like you're still off. I have to trust that I provided
• 56:22
  them space to engage or talk with me. And if that is something that they don't
• 56:27
  feel safe doing or want to do right now, that's okay because we're playing the
• 56:31
  long game. We're in a relationship here.
• 56:33
  Let's turn it into the workplace setting. So you're in a meeting and a project
• 56:37
  that you worked on gets brought up, but only your coworker gets credit.
• 56:41
  And so then you stew all day. That guy's trying to make me look bad.
• 56:45
  I can't believe that no one noticed
• 56:48
  that I did anything about that or how could he take all that credit?
• 56:51
  That's emotional fusion. I'm wanting these people to recognize my efforts and
• 56:55
  I don't want them to think this or I don't want to say it because I don't want
• 56:59
  them to think that I'm being an egomaniac or so I'm managing people's emotions.
• 57:03
  I'm wanting somebody to read my mind.
• 57:06
  Now, what would curiosity look like? Hey, I noticed the project came up in the
• 57:10
  meeting and I didn't hear my name
• 57:11
  mentioned. Can we talk about how we're presenting things moving forward?
• 57:14
  You're not accusing, you're clarifying, you're not demanding,
• 57:17
  you're trying to have a dialogue. That does not guarantee that the other person
• 57:20
  is going to say, oh my gosh, you're so right.
• 57:22
  But at some point you're beginning to be more curious and learn to be grounded
• 57:27
  in these interactions because that's the person that you want to be.
• 57:31
  Let's talk about an interaction with a neighbor. You wave at your neighbor,
• 57:34
  then wave back. Maybe that's been a pattern over time. You begin to think,
• 57:38
  man, what's their problem?
• 57:39
  So then you avoid, and I'll show them. I'm not going to wave at them for a while
• 57:42
  either. And then they will see something.
• 57:45
  Curiosity might even be going over and approaching them.
• 57:48
  And hey, I waved and said hi, and I didn't see, it seemed like you looked at
• 57:53
  me and didn't wave back, which is fine, but I'm so curious. How are you doing?
• 57:57
  Is everything okay? Or what's going on in your life?
• 58:00
  This is based on a real story. And in that scenario, the guy didn't have his glasses on.
• 58:05
  Honestly, he was a little bit older. He also didn't have his hearing aids in.
• 58:07
  And so that helped my client make a lot more sense of what was happening.
• 58:11
  But I've had situations as well where somebody was grieving a loss or they honestly didn't see you.
• 58:15
  But either way, you were able to not only just clear the air so that you didn't
• 58:19
  sit there and make up stories and ruminate, but you also were able to have a
• 58:24
  genuine connection with another human.
• 58:27
  Curiosity is a muscle and you have
• 58:29
  to practice it curiosity isn't passive it's not
• 58:32
  pretending that everything's fine it's not avoiding conflict
• 58:36
  curiosity is it's a maturity skill and
• 58:38
  it takes regulation it takes reflection and it takes a lot of reps it's saying
• 58:43
  i may not know the full story but i care enough about myself and this other
• 58:48
  person to find out and like any skill it's going to be pretty wobbly at first
• 58:52
  and it might be wobbly for quite some time because you'll still fall into these
• 58:55
  old patterns. You'll overcorrect.
• 58:56
  You'll catch yourself sometimes mid-reaction and wish you could rewind.
• 59:00
  And while you can't literally pull a Superman and go around the globe backwards
• 59:04
  a few times and rewind time, you can ask for a do-over. That's okay. It's growth.
• 59:09
  Because over time, the fact that you're aware of this, the fact that you're
• 59:13
  trying to be more genuinely curious and you're getting these reps in,
• 59:16
  then you'll start to notice when the story in your head isn't really matching the moment.
• 59:21
  And you'll be able to catch these assumptions before they even escape your mouth.
• 59:25
  Staying grounded is such a key component of being more genuinely curious.
• 59:30
  If you can stay grounded long enough to learn to respond.
• 59:34
  Instead of react. And that's where you begin to lead with curiosity.
• 59:38
  And what it feels like to be you is I am genuinely curious.
• 59:41
  I have my thoughts, I have my opinions, but I really want to know.
• 59:44
  I really want to understand what this other person's experience is.
• 59:47
  And before we wrap this up, I do want to throw a couple of acceptance and commitment
• 59:51
  therapy tools in here that I think are important.
• 59:53
  Your brain's job is narrating. It's to narrate, it's to judge, it's to predict.
• 59:58
  That's not a flaw. It's just wiring. It's just the way it is.
• 1:00:02
  But the challenge is if you believe every thought that you have is true,
• 1:00:06
  now you're at the mercy of that script and your brain is just going to think
• 1:00:09
  a whole lot of words, a whole lot of thoughts.
• 1:00:12
  Instead of things like, man, I'm just so awkward. Everybody thinks I'm annoying.
• 1:00:16
  It is very powerful just to put a little bit of space there.
• 1:00:19
  Oh, check that out. I'm noticing I'm having the thought that I'm awkward.
• 1:00:21
  And the story my brain is telling me is that people find me annoying.
• 1:00:25
  It creates space. It slows the spiral. It gives you a chance to step back and
• 1:00:28
  say, is that helpful? Is that a productive thought or is it just the familiar?
• 1:00:32
  And in ACT, there's a concept called self as context.
• 1:00:36
  One of the best ways to think about this is you're the sky. You're not the weather.
• 1:00:40
  You are not your anxiety. You are not your worst day. You're not your best performance.
• 1:00:44
  You're not even the role that you're playing right now, a parent or partner,
• 1:00:47
  me as a therapist, podcaster, friend.
• 1:00:49
  You're the one observing it all. Your thoughts and feelings,
• 1:00:52
  they are the weather. They roll in, they roll out.
• 1:00:54
  You, you are the big, beautiful sky. And when you remember that,
• 1:00:59
  curiosity comes a lot easier because you're no longer defending the storm,
• 1:01:02
  you're watching it, you're learning from it and choosing how to respond to it.
• 1:01:06
  And that way you can attach more meaning to the parts of the weather that you
• 1:01:10
  really appreciate and you can tolerate the parts that you don't.
• 1:01:15
  Because another key concept in acceptance and commitment therapy is this conversation.
• 1:01:19
  Term psychological flexibility. It is about growing in real time.
• 1:01:23
  Because I cannot stress enough, every single moment is new.
• 1:01:27
  Every conversation that you're having is the first time you're ever having that
• 1:01:30
  conversation, even if the words sound familiar and the person is the same.
• 1:01:34
  It is uncharted territory. You've never been this version of you in this very
• 1:01:39
  moment with this person right now before.
• 1:01:43
  Because when you maybe were talking to this person in the past, It was in the past.
• 1:01:47
  So of course, you don't need to have all the answers, but your brain is this
• 1:01:52
  predictive engine and it is seeking certainty.
• 1:01:55
  And so it is going to start to make predictions. Psychological flexibility says,
• 1:01:59
  I'm going to stay with what's here right now. I'm going to accept what I feel
• 1:02:02
  and I will make this choice, this choice point and choose my next move based
• 1:02:07
  on who I want to be, not what I want to avoid.
• 1:02:10
  And that's where the work becomes, the good work. That's where the emotional maturity lives.
• 1:02:15
  I've got my four pillars of a connected conversation. And one thing that I don't
• 1:02:19
  talk enough about is when I'm working with individuals, I will call it the one
• 1:02:22
  person four pillared conversation.
• 1:02:23
  So even if the other person that you're interacting with isn't equipped with
• 1:02:26
  these tools, you can be, you can still show up with the four pillars.
• 1:02:29
  You can provide somebody the benefit of the doubt or that there's a reason why
• 1:02:32
  they are showing up this way or they're saying the things that they're saying,
• 1:02:35
  which allows you to then accept their perspective. Their view makes sense to them.
• 1:02:39
  My pillar two, you cannot tell somebody else that that is ridiculous,
• 1:02:42
  wrong, or I don't believe them. Even if I think what they're saying is ridiculous,
• 1:02:46
  I do believe it's wrong and I don't believe them because that is their perspective.
• 1:02:51
  That is their view, which then leads to pillar three, which is questions before comments.
• 1:02:55
  Now's your time to seek to understand. Here's where the genuine curiosity comes from.
• 1:02:59
  It's asking more. It's trying to understand. It's putting my ego aside.
• 1:03:04
  It's reacting less. It's responding more.
• 1:03:07
  And then fourth pillar, not going into any kind of victim mindset or victim mentality.
• 1:03:11
  I'm going to embrace the conversation. I'm going to stay in it. I'm not going to tap out.
• 1:03:15
  So if I go to someone and I say, hey, tell me about your day.
• 1:03:20
  Help me understand what's been going on for you. And they say,
• 1:03:22
  I've really been in my head.
• 1:03:24
  And I just, it seems like nobody's there for me. and that is hard for you because
• 1:03:28
  you're literally right here for them right now.
• 1:03:31
  I'm assuming good intentions. I'm giving them that benefit of the doubt.
• 1:03:34
  I'm accepting that their view of what is going on right now is their view.
• 1:03:38
  So I'm not gonna tell them they're wrong. And then I'm gonna go into that third pillar.
• 1:03:42
  I am going to say, tell me more, help me understand. What's that feel like for you?
• 1:03:46
  And as they express themselves, now I'm understanding more about them and I'm
• 1:03:49
  gonna stay present, pillar four.
• 1:03:51
  Now, at that point, when they feel heard, then I
• 1:03:54
  can say I appreciate you sharing that
• 1:03:57
  that helps me understand you I think one of the traps
• 1:03:59
  we're into is they're saying I know exactly how you feel which nobody truly
• 1:04:03
  knows exactly how we feel but I'm a I'm grateful that
• 1:04:05
  you've shared that with me and that helps me understand your experience more
• 1:04:08
  now first of all that does sound difficult and how can I show up for you because
• 1:04:12
  sometimes when you put it that way somebody can say things like I guess I just
• 1:04:16
  really need to be heard or I really do want your opinion on what you if they
• 1:04:21
  say think I should do then that's Well,
• 1:04:23
  I can give you my opinion on what I'm assuming that I would do if I were you
• 1:04:28
  in that situation, but I don't know what it feels like to be you.
• 1:04:31
  But all of that comes from a place of leading with curiosity.
• 1:04:33
  You are holding on to yourself. You stay differentiated.
• 1:04:36
  And even if the other person doesn't meet you there, you will walk away knowing
• 1:04:40
  that you showed up the best way that you could.
• 1:04:43
  More emotionally mature, kind, clear.
• 1:04:46
  Let's wrap this thing up. True vulnerability means, it does mean owning what
• 1:04:50
  you assume. Sometimes the most vulnerable thing that you can say is.
• 1:04:53
  Hey, I think I made an assumption here. I assumed that you meant this.
• 1:04:57
  Or I thought I understood, but I might have missed something.
• 1:05:00
  I would love to hear you. I would love for you to be able to clarify.
• 1:05:03
  Or I was so sure I was right, but I am so open to hearing more.
• 1:05:07
  Because that kind of vulnerability builds trust. It doesn't weaken your authority.
• 1:05:11
  It earns your respect. Because curiosity does not mean giving up your voice.
• 1:05:14
  It means making room for someone else's. And that's where emotional connection
• 1:05:18
  starts to begin. And let me give you just a couple of takeaways that you can
• 1:05:22
  leave today and start to do.
• 1:05:24
  Catch your reaction. And if you can, name the thought.
• 1:05:27
  Start paying attention to your initial reaction in these moments of tension.
• 1:05:30
  The next time that you feel defensive or dismissed or rejected,
• 1:05:32
  pause and ask yourself, what is this story my brain's telling me right now?
• 1:05:36
  And try to use the language like, I'm noticing that I'm having a thought that
• 1:05:41
  they don't respect me instead of, they don't respect me.
• 1:05:44
  Or, oh, check that out. I'm noticing that I'm starting to feel anger instead of I'm angry.
• 1:05:49
  That simple shift helps you step back from the thought and it does start to
• 1:05:53
  open doors to curiosity instead of reactivity.
• 1:05:56
  And I would highly recommend that you practice this one person four pillar conversation.
• 1:06:00
  Choose an interaction this week, maybe with a partner or a child,
• 1:06:02
  a coworker, or even the neighbor who didn't wave and then intentionally walk
• 1:06:06
  through the four pillars.
• 1:06:06
  Give that person the benefit of the doubt or there's a reason why they're doing
• 1:06:09
  what they're doing. Accept their perspective because it's valid to them.
• 1:06:12
  And if you are telling them that isn't what I said or that isn't what I remember,
• 1:06:17
  then I've just told them what their experience is wrong.
• 1:06:19
  Now, I can still hold on to what my experience was, but first I want to seek
• 1:06:24
  to understand them with an open-ended question.
• 1:06:26
  And I'm going to embrace the conversation instead of shutting down,
• 1:06:30
  instead of trying to avoid it.
• 1:06:31
  And then even if the other person doesn't reciprocate, notice how different
• 1:06:34
  you feel when you lead with emotional maturity and you lead with curiosity.
• 1:06:38
  And maybe the most difficult thing, but it could be the most powerful,
• 1:06:43
  is say the vulnerable thing.
• 1:06:44
  At least once or twice this week, practice real humility by saying one thing
• 1:06:47
  that reflects emotional ownership. And that might sound like,
• 1:06:50
  I think I made an assumption or, hey, that's on me, my bad.
• 1:06:54
  Or I might not have been seeing this because clearly, can you help me understand?
• 1:06:57
  I really want to know you or that's on me.
• 1:07:00
  I thought I was being clear, but I'm sure that something that I said might have
• 1:07:06
  been taken the wrong way.
• 1:07:08
  Saying something that shows openness and a willingness to be wrong builds trust
• 1:07:12
  and it reinforces the identity of somebody who values growth over their ego.
• 1:07:18
  Okay, hey, thank you for sticking with me. That's all I have for you today.
• 1:07:21
  If you ever caught yourself asking a question with a little bit of an edge or
• 1:07:24
  hoping the other person gives you the right answer so that you feel better,
• 1:07:26
  just remember you, you are not alone.
• 1:07:29
  That's part of being a human being, but you can start to shift it.
• 1:07:32
  And that shift starts with being curious, genuinely curious.
• 1:07:35
  I would be grateful if you subscribe and leave reviews and share this with somebody
• 1:07:39
  who you think might benefit from maybe softening their questions into true, genuine curiosity.
• 1:07:45
  Until next time, I encourage you all keep showing up with presence. Be present.
• 1:07:50
  Not necessarily feeling like you have to protect that ego. Be curious.
• 1:07:54
  And I will see you next time on the Virtual Catch.
• 1:07:59
  Music.