Latest / Mindful You / The Transformative Journey: Discoveries After Purging, Heightened Awareness, Non-Judgmental Listening, Stillness, And Embracing The Inner Self With Barbara D'Amoto

Transcript

The Transformative Journey: Discoveries After Purging, Heightened Awareness, Non-Judgmental Listening, Stillness, And Embracing The Inner Self With Barbara D'Amoto · Mindful You

0:03
Alan Carroll: Welcome back to the mindful U Podcast. I'm Alan
0:09
Carroll. I am your host, and today's guest, Dr. Barbara
0:16
D'Amato. She has spent most of her life pursuing the
0:25
psychoanalytic path journey. works at the Graduate School
0:30
faculty in New York City for the study and practice of
0:39
psychoanalytic psychology, which would be from the Freudian
0:46
roots, the id, the ego, the super ego. And so she has been
0:52
teaching others psychoanalytic people, she has her own
0:57
practice. And what I really enjoyed about our conversation
1:02
today was all the similarities between the mindfulness
1:08
presence, managing the thoughts, decreasing suffering, and the
1:13
work that she does in the psychoanalytic field of the
1:19
body, and the relaxing and the mindfulness and the managing of
1:23
the thoughts and what you think and what you project out into
1:27
the world are the same thing. And it was a delight, just
1:32
having her share her years of wisdom, the clarity of her
1:36
message. Very, very, very nice. So I'm excited to bring with you
1:42
today. Dr. Barbara D'Amato. And please welcome her to the
1:48
mindful you, podcast. Thank you. Thank you very much. Dr. Barbara
1:56
D'Amato Welcome to the mindful you podcast. i Well, it's a it's
2:04
a privilege to have you. And I'm really excited because you have
2:08
journeyed down a pathway in the psychological field. And I've
2:15
been journeying down the pathway in the psychological field. And
2:18
it looks as though they are actually psychoanalysis and
2:22
mindfulness and presence and being in being in the moment are
2:27
connected. Absolutely. But I would love for you to first of
2:32
all, a little bit of your background and a little bit of a
2:36
layman's definition of psychoanalysis. And then we'll
2:41
bring up mindfulness and see how the two are related, and how we
2:45
can achieve a greater sense of calling consciousness to be
2:52
present in the moment. So please bear with us a little bit of
2:55
your background and a little bit of understanding of
2:57
psychoanalytic theory. Okay,
2:59
Barbara D'Amoto: well, to go way, way back, I actually
3:02
started my career as a special education teacher. Ah, and when
3:06
I was working with in special education, or smaller classrooms
3:09
with kids with sort of behavioral problems. Yep. So
3:13
when I was working with these kids, I realized that so many of
3:15
them were really smart kids, like, why are these kids hear.
3:19
So over time, I learned that they had so much emotional
3:23
baggage from home, that they didn't have people helping them
3:27
to study or helping them to get to school on time. So all of
3:31
that impeded their ability to learn. And in the, in the larger
3:34
mainstream classrooms, the teachers like Oh, get this
3:37
troublemaker out of here, send them to special ed. He's a
3:40
perfect most of them are perfectly smart kids. So I
3:43
started to become very, very interested in their emotional
3:46
lives, which was much more intriguing than teaching them
3:50
reading and math. So I started to study at a psychoanalytic
3:53
Institute. I wanted first to be a child analyst. But as you
3:58
know, as time went on, I had adult clients and it went on and
4:02
on and on. And I just became a regular analyst for all groups
4:05
of people. I've worked with all ages, all groups, couples, etc.
4:10
And the thing about psychoanalysis is that it's very
4:14
broad. The technique is very open. And it's really cold, the
4:18
talking cure for that reason, the patient comes in, and the
4:23
analyst doesn't lead. These are the goals we're working on. This
4:25
is what we'll have to do. The analyst really follows where the
4:29
patient wants to go, what the patient's ready to talk about.
4:33
Most people will come in, I had a wonderful childhood. I mean,
4:37
three or four years in, we start to peel back, what their
4:40
childhood was really like, and what they're carrying and what's
4:44
getting in their way. So psychoanalysis helps people to
4:48
sort of peel off these protective layers, or defenses
4:52
they've built up to get to the real person who they really are.
4:57
So in connection with mindfulness, mindfulness till
5:00
Live in the moment as who they are, and not to keep living with
5:04
the demons that they grew up with, that they're carrying,
5:08
that they keep finding in the world today that are not really
5:11
there. They're kind of living inside of them. So
5:14
psychoanalysis, I think, from the way I understand it, and the
5:18
way I practice it, is to help people be who they are today to
5:23
resolve what happened when they were growing up, and to be more
5:26
present with who they are today. And it's very simplified, very
5:31
simple, right?
5:33
Alan Carroll: The concept of the demons within are then projected
5:39
out. Correct. And my understanding is that if you
5:46
wanted to handle the demons without their, like illusions
5:51
created by the thoughts within and you're saying by the talk
5:55
therapy, of releasing the pressure, all these pressure, so
5:58
I like that one releases the pressure that allows a fluidity
6:02
and a cleansing and a cleaning and an aeration and an openness
6:07
and a purging of something. And then once we've purged what's
6:12
what do people often discover, when they have tasted that space
6:18
of less, less repression and more openness?
6:22
Unknown: It's a good question, I think what really happens for
6:25
most people is their behavior starts to change, their behavior
6:29
in response to other people starts to change. They're not
6:33
responding to say, their boss, who's very strict, and they hate
6:37
this woman, because the woman acts just like their mother did.
6:41
And the relationship is already now antagonistic. Over time,
6:44
they start to realize this woman is asking me to do something
6:47
different. It has nothing to do with how cruel my mother was,
6:50
this woman is just sort of tapping into a sensitivity I
6:53
have, so that they can see that they can respond differently to
6:57
this boss, and make that relationship lesson to
7:00
agonistic. And use that energy for something more productive
7:04
somewhere else.
7:06
Alan Carroll: You say the words, Barbara, they have to see, they
7:11
have to become aware, they have to become more conscious of I'll
7:18
call it the internal world, is that what you're saying?
7:21
Unknown: Are they internalized objects, the parents as the
7:23
objects that they've they're carrying inside of them? Yeah.
7:27
Alan Carroll: And I think of the word in my mind and mindfulness,
7:33
we have this sort of level you achieve of awareness called the
7:38
observer, or the witness, or the let's see observer witness.
7:47
There's another one, I can't think of it right now. But it's
7:49
the ability to be able to see something and not get hooked by
7:56
what you see, for example, thoughts. You're having thoughts
7:59
about my mother having thoughts about the horrible things that
8:02
happened to me and being able to notice, oh, I have these
8:05
thoughts. Okay. Good. And but not be seduced, right by the
8:11
thoughts, right leads to which leads to that what you mentioned
8:14
also, the difference between responding, let's talk about the
8:19
difference between responding to the event that's happening in
8:22
front of you, versus reacting to the event that's happening in
8:25
front of you take that one for a ride. This
8:29
Unknown: is a very painful and difficult process to get a
8:32
person from point A when they're projecting to point B, where
8:35
they're saying, Oh, wait, this is reminding me of my mother,
8:38
I'm having a really bad feeling. But Mrs. So and so is not really
8:41
my mother. Right? process works. According to Freud, you know, we
8:45
studied many, many other analysts. Besides Freud, Today,
8:50
modern analysis is much more eclectic. We don't just rely on
8:53
Freud. But Freud was the pioneer. And his idea is one
8:57
called transference where the patient will ultimately in
9:01
treatment project that bed those bad internal objects onto the
9:05
animist. And that's where it gets resolved. The patient
9:10
starts to believe the analyst is that bad mother, you're treating
9:13
me so mainly, you're doing this, you're doing that. So the
9:17
analyst then responds differently than the mother did
9:20
the mother's like, go to bed? I'm gonna beat you. The analysts
9:23
Tell me tell me how I hurt you. Tell me what I did when I said
9:26
that. And over time, repeated repeated incidents like this.
9:32
The patient starts to say, Yeah, you're really not like my
9:35
mother, you really are a nicer person. This is not an easy one
9:39
time snap. This takes years of building up trust with the
9:43
patient. years with the patient being brave enough to say you
9:46
are really being mean to me, which is very hard for patients
9:49
to do until they know you. That's the thing that cures to a
9:54
cure is a strange word. That's the thing that helps the patient
9:57
See, I'm bringing this to my Self, I'm carrying this and it's
10:02
holding me back, I have to see the world more clearly. It's a
10:06
very long process. And
10:09
Alan Carroll: if I can see the world more clearly, then my
10:12
ability to make appropriate choices, based on the
10:16
observation without the distortion of the past in front
10:19
of my eyes gets better and better and better, probably
10:23
Unknown: written better for the person, the person makes better,
10:25
better choices, the the internal feelings never go away, patients
10:29
will say to me, when is that person going to stop reminding
10:32
me of my mother, probably never. But you're going to know there's
10:35
a difference, that's the thing that's going to change, the
10:38
feeling may remain the same, but your behavior, you now have
10:42
control over this feeling. And you can change your behavior.
10:46
Alan Carroll: And that is a big step. Huge, huge, big step,
10:52
Unknown: big step and take a lot of work from both parties to
10:57
tolerate because very bad feelings have to come up in
10:59
order to get past them.
11:03
Alan Carroll: And, and the. And to get past the bad feelings,
11:10
there's something you're gonna have to take me in because
11:12
you're more professional than I am. But as far as the ego, I
11:16
look at the ego as your conceptual identity, made up of
11:20
all the concepts you consider yourself to be, and put a circle
11:23
around that put barber up on top. And that's your ego. And
11:27
that's your conceptual identity. And the purpose of the mind is
11:30
the survival of the things you've identified yourself to
11:33
be. So if I've identified myself to be a victim, for me to let go
11:37
of being a victim is somehow psychologically I use the word
11:41
suicide, I'm giving up something that I consider myself to be and
11:45
so I'm, I'm holding on,
11:47
Unknown: absolutely, I'm holding
11:48
Alan Carroll: on No, that's not the no, really holding on to
11:52
something.
11:53
Unknown: We call that resistance, the patient is
11:56
comfortable in their suffering, because it's familiar. decades
12:00
and decades and decades, they've been holding on to this image
12:02
that you've just described. So that's where it's very, very
12:05
difficult, and it's painful to patient be frightened to let go
12:08
of being a victim if that were the case.
12:12
Alan Carroll: Right? Boy, that's a that it's so valuable to to
12:17
say it again, because it's a it's really valuable for people
12:21
to hear. I
12:22
Unknown: can give you an example from my novel, there's a
12:25
character in the novel who have a new novel coming out. My new
12:28
novel is coming out try scout. Nice, yeah, wonderful. There
12:32
isn't a character in this in the novel who's been abandoned
12:35
early, early in life, sexually abuse were pushed around from
12:38
foster care to foster care. Now she's a very promiscuous artist
12:42
who gets herself in all sorts of trouble. She gets ordered to be
12:48
in therapy. The therapist is a psychoanalyst. So she's
12:52
something there's some connection that happens. She
12:54
likes this analyst, she's different than the other social
12:57
worker, she has been to say, you have to do this, you have to do
12:59
that. This person is just there to listen to her. So they make a
13:02
connection. And over time, she starts to report what has
13:08
happened to her, particularly people who've been sexually
13:10
abused, it's very hard for them to talk about it. They they
13:13
blame themselves, they feel tremendous shame. So eventually,
13:16
she gets there. And she starts to talk about it. And then she
13:20
starts accusing the analyst of wanting to abuse her. So in this
13:24
process, the analyst sort of accepts that says, of course, I
13:29
would never do that to you, but bla bla bla bla bla. And in that
13:32
process, the patient's ego, as you described, her sense of
13:37
agency gets stronger. So that's kind of an example of what
13:42
happens, the patient has to relive the trauma, the
13:45
emotionality of it in the room with the analyst in order for
13:49
them to work through it together. And it's not an easy
13:52
thing to do. And patients will spend years avoiding it. And the
13:56
analyst doesn't push them until they're ready. Because if you
13:59
push them, they'll leave, they'll just leave treatment.
14:04
Alan Carroll: People who are not able to do the psychoanalysis in
14:11
the four or five years and, and even, you know, people who can't
14:15
really do a lot of mindfulness work, what are some of the
14:18
things that you would say, you know, if there's one or two
14:21
things you'd become more aware of, it probably would reduce a
14:25
lot of the discomfort that you are experiencing in your
14:28
reality. Oh,
14:30
Unknown: that happens all the time. I think the fact of going
14:33
to a therapist of any modality and being listened to is the
14:38
most therapeutic thing that can happen to anyone. Because most
14:41
kids have not had the experience. They were deeply,
14:44
deeply listened to. And preparing sometimes you can't
14:47
you got a number of kids, you're busy at work and you're a single
14:49
mom, you can't sit down and have deep, deep conversations with
14:53
your kids. So that I think therapy is an enormous gift. And
14:58
it's ego building first I want to speak with that whatever they
15:01
want every single week and someone listens and kind of
15:05
asked you questions like they're interested in the most boring
15:08
thing you might talk about, that in and of itself is curative.
15:12
And as people get stronger, then they're able over time to look
15:16
at the more difficult things.
15:19
Alan Carroll: When it comes to mind is a quote from Eckhart
15:21
Tolle. And he's written several books power, the now being the
15:26
largest one. And he talks about the greatest gift that you can
15:31
give another human being, is to listen. absolutely have to say,
15:36
Absolutely. And it seems like, Well, yeah, but when you
15:41
actually look at people's conversations, there's not a lot
15:45
of listening Gong going on. And when you can be when you can be
15:50
practicing listening, and listening to me is that there's
15:54
a distinction between agreeing with what the person is saying,
15:57
and allowing what the person is saying to exist. Right. And most
16:01
people my observation, Barbara, think listening has something to
16:05
do with, I have to agree with what you're saying. And I can't
16:10
open up to include something that's a threat to my identity.
16:14
So I have to resist it. Whereas the therapist, I suspect, you
16:19
are definitely you're in the you will allow whatever they say to
16:23
exist, without judging it does that. Talk about that a little
16:29
bit, being able to listen without judging.
16:33
Unknown: That's a hard thing to do. And I supervise young
16:36
analysts who are starting just starting to practice and they
16:39
get very caught up in this moral question. If the patient wants
16:42
to do something that doesn't sort of meet their register of
16:45
what's good and bad, they want to intervene, because they think
16:48
that's what I'm supposed to be doing. So that's a very hard
16:51
thing to learn to do. person wants to divorce their husband,
16:55
that's up to them, you can explore why and what they want
16:58
to do afterwards. But you can't really have a position. And
17:01
that's a very hard thing for analysts to learn to just let
17:04
the patient talk to you. But shouldn't I be helping them stay
17:07
with their husband? No, the patient has to decide for
17:10
themselves if they want to remain married or not. The only
17:13
time the analyst ever has to intervene in a moral way, is if
17:18
the patient is suicidal, or actively homicidal. If they're
17:21
going to hurt somebody or hurt themselves, then the analyst has
17:24
to say I need to call 911. We can't do this. That's the only
17:27
only time and that's a way way. Rarely, that hardly ever, ever
17:31
happens.
17:31
Alan Carroll: Sure, sure. Sure. I find that when I did my
17:39
therapy work with children, and in public schools, I was part of
17:44
the Special Education team. So how you doing? You're a part of
17:48
that team.
17:49
Unknown: I knew I liked your part of
17:51
Alan Carroll: that team. And they, we we always, we always
17:57
enjoyed the opportunity to talk to the parents. And most of the
18:02
teachers were afraid to talk to the parents. And I you know, I
18:07
would just listen, I would just because the child had some
18:10
results on a test and I had deliver the news about the test,
18:14
especially the psychological test of intelligence test, a
18:17
bender test, those types of tests. And all I and all I was
18:22
able to do because I wasn't married, I had no children. So
18:25
what am I doing family therapy for? But I just could listen, I
18:29
just listened. And boy, you could see the finally somebody
18:34
has heard the and it's it. I remember my mother had a
18:39
pressure cooker. And it was a pot with a pressure thing on top
18:43
eventually cook. I forget what you'd cook it into. But but but
18:47
to release the pressure here. And the pressure is released.
18:52
Right? It's almost like you see, listening seems to release a
18:57
pressure. Right? And boy, that is so important. So so
19:02
important. And so I hope people are listening to our
19:06
conversation and just look at the possibility of increasing
19:12
your listening statistic
19:14
Unknown: to the listener to be listened to. I mean, Anna Oh was
19:18
the first Cycladic patient and she talked about the power of
19:22
she called the chimney sweeping that she could just talk what
19:25
she could release to a person who wasn't judging who wasn't
19:29
condemning, who wasn't directing, just listening. Just
19:33
let that steam out. So you don't blow up. Because there's a lot
19:36
of things in life that can cause us to have steam. Plus the stuff
19:41
we're carrying.
19:42
Alan Carroll: You also mentioned the word position. You come into
19:47
the conversation and there's an event happening in front of you
19:50
and automatically based on your history. You got
19:54
Unknown: to position. Absolutely, absolutely. And
19:58
Alan Carroll: so what has to become aware of one's position,
20:03
yes, no,
20:04
Unknown: absolutely. That psychoanalysts have to remain in
20:08
supervision and psychoanalysis themselves. Most of them do this
20:12
throughout their life, because the patient will arouse your
20:15
position. But she's doing this to her father, her father, blah,
20:19
blah, blah, they so the analysts themselves has to release the
20:22
steam to their supervisor and their analysts. So they can back
20:27
can go back to the patient and be neutral. That's the patient
20:30
steam, let it come out. You don't have to direct it or close
20:33
it down or do anything like that. So the process, it starts
20:37
in motion and everybody, yeah,
20:40
Alan Carroll: I love the word neutral. Neutral is that you are
20:43
able to be present. The observer is neutral, the witness is
20:49
neutral, does not have a position, about what they see.
20:54
It's just thoughts, passing through their mind positive,
20:58
Unknown: said humans do have a position. So the analyst has to
21:01
be trained, keep that to yourself. You might have you may
21:05
have your feeling that you don't like what the patient is doing.
21:07
Keep that to yourself. It doesn't help the treatment, it
21:10
doesn't advance the case. That's the hard part for people who are
21:14
in training to keep your mouth shut.
21:18
Alan Carroll: I hear you, I hear you the going into the
21:24
mindfulness conversation. One of the major ways of achieving
21:32
mindfulness is an eyes closed relax your body becomes still
21:37
time during the day they call it a practice. Any practice you
21:41
talked about different passive psychology, different ways of
21:44
exploring it, but mindfulness it's the same thing. There's
21:47
lots of people have lots of different definitions of it, but
21:51
becoming still Yeah. Once a day. Can I use that? I did show it to
21:58
you I think people get it get get agitated. I'm holding up a
22:03
bottle with with silver things inside. And Bitcoin when you
22:07
become still everything becomes clear. Like you settle down. So
22:12
big fan of how are you going to manage your position? We
22:16
position is stirred up of thoughts. Can you spend some
22:19
time during the day just with eyes closed? Is that part of the
22:25
approach that you use?
22:27
Unknown: It's interesting. The more you talk, the more
22:29
similarities I see between mindfulness and psychoanalysis,
22:32
the classic psychoanalyst and I'm, I'm not a Freudian
22:35
psychoanalyst. I've studied Freud and I use his ideas. Use
22:38
the couch, the cyclonic couch. I mean, you see the Woody Allen
22:41
movies and everybody laughs at it. But psychoanalyst use the
22:44
couch, the patient reclining on the couch, they're still the
22:49
musculature is at ease is no movement, except they're, and
22:53
they're facing away from the analyst. So whatever my facial
22:57
expressions are, when they're telling me I did this, and I
22:59
stole a pack a pack of gum, and I'm gonna steal some cookies.
23:02
You don't they don't see my face. And I don't have to see
23:05
them. And they're just sort of centered on their thoughts that
23:08
they're putting into words only. So yes, lying on the couch,
23:12
makes the nervous system still is no movement. There's no
23:16
distraction. Quiet. And let's talk.
23:21
Alan Carroll: That's great. That's great. I never looked at
23:24
it that way. You always see the pictures in Hollywood of the
23:26
person on the couch, right? don't realize there's a reason.
23:30
Unknown: Absolutely. onto your face. Oh, you're mad now, when
23:37
you're not because they're carrying these projections. So
23:40
that's removed, they can talk more freely about what's going
23:44
on inside.
23:46
Alan Carroll: That's great. I like the idea of becoming no
23:51
vibration. Stillness is like no vibration, there's no there's no
23:54
agitation, right? And so you are relaxed. And when you relax, it
24:00
releases tension. When you release tension, it opens up the
24:03
orifice, the holes become bigger, and there's a flow that
24:07
would not be available if you were constricted, right? And so
24:12
part of the theory is if you can unconstrained your physical
24:15
body, it helps the flow of thoughts and access to that
24:18
unconscious mind.
24:20
Unknown: Absolutely. When you're sitting up looking at someone,
24:23
it's much more conversational, you're not going in deeper,
24:25
you're kind of thinking of the next way to connect. So when
24:28
that's removed, that person really has to go deeper. And
24:31
people resist that too. Oh, I don't I don't want to use I will
24:34
be able to see you. That's the point.
24:37
Alan Carroll: That's wonderful. Boy, I'm really excited that
24:40
there. It's a you're sharing things that are are similar,
24:45
similar to the to the idea of mindfulness and the idea of
24:50
becoming present in mindfulness, they'll call it the ability to
24:54
become aware of the voice inside your head is not who you are.
24:58
Right? It's That voice is the past conditioning, a judging and
25:04
evaluating telling you what so interpreting everything that you
25:07
see. And but as I become more present as I become more
25:12
mindful, and I realized that, oh, it's like a tape inside me
25:17
it's like a tape from from the past. And I love closing my eyes
25:24
and relaxing my body and becoming aware of any tension,
25:28
any tension at all with my body and stored up tightness and do
25:35
what I can to relax the tension in my body which forces me to
25:41
direct my attention from the thoughts that I'm thinking to
25:44
the physical body that is, that is the thoughts are bubbling up
25:48
from
25:48
Unknown: right, it removes your your mind from that take that
25:51
place that this is happening because of this reason when when
25:54
it's not something else might be happening. Yeah. And
25:56
Alan Carroll: that starts building up that observer, the
25:59
witness, right part of you, which is that big step lightly
26:05
that we talked about. Right. I couple of questions that I would
26:11
love to hear you explain that we have the word it. We have the
26:18
word ego. And we have the word super ego. Yes. And when I did
26:23
my Freudian work, whatever that was the big thing. Well, if you
26:26
understood something about that, you pretty much understood what
26:29
the guy was talking about. I would love to hear you briefly
26:34
just define the three. So people would never hear about those
26:38
words, they have some idea of what it is.
26:41
Unknown: Sure, there's, I mean, there's a number of theories of
26:43
the mind. And this was one of Freud's theories, and some
26:45
people reject it, and some people like it, some people use
26:47
parts of it, but I think the words are useful. I think Freud
26:51
understood the EDD as that sort of unconscious, smoldering
26:56
drives and passions. We all want to eat good food, we want to
26:59
sometimes hurt people who hurt us. We want to sort of have sex
27:04
with a lot of people, that sort of pushing drive. And the ego
27:08
develops as the child start as the infant starts to grow, when
27:11
the mother starts to help the child know what their feelings
27:14
are baby's crying, mommy's like, you're tired, you're hungry, so
27:18
the child and starts to be able to identify its feelings. So the
27:22
ego is now that sort of the reality, which is in touch with
27:25
reality. You really want to eat all that cake, but you
27:28
shouldn't, because you'll feel sick. So that the it has to slow
27:31
down and can't eat all that cake because it'll make me sick.
27:34
Alan Carroll: It's putting a rain on the on the head a little
27:37
Unknown: bit. Absolutely. Because the it has no rain, the
27:40
head wants what it wants, when it wants it. I'm mad, I'm gonna
27:42
punch that person. Whoa. But if you punch that person, they
27:45
might call the police, you could end up in jail. So the ego sort
27:49
of mitigates, okay. The super ego is develops around the
27:55
parents, the morality and the judgment and the right and wrong
27:58
of the parents. That gets interjected, you can't run
28:01
across the street, Jimmy, you can't do that. So eventually,
28:05
the kid tells himself, you can't run across the street when the
28:07
cars are coming. So that's the super ego. Now that can become
28:11
too severe, that can become too loose. So the ego is sort of
28:15
mitigating between the super the super ego that's saying no, and
28:19
the other saying yes, yes, yes. The ego is like, well, then this
28:22
reality, what is it better to do No, right now? And wait? Or is
28:27
it better to do? Yes, and maybe get really big, big trouble. So
28:31
that's the way these three very simple basic level levels
28:35
interact.
28:37
Alan Carroll: So the super ego is the one of the ways I look at
28:45
it is everybody is different, because everybody was raised in
28:49
a different garden. Right? And so the fruit of your tree, same
28:54
family, but I don't care. It's a different garden, because you
28:57
got different experiences. And to me, the primary programmers
29:01
have what that super ego, if I remember correctly, was was the
29:06
mother, and then the father would be number two. Right? And
29:11
so is that true is that it's the is the moral? No, you should not
29:17
do that. Because that comes from the the grandmother probably,
29:20
and the grandmother's grandmother things passing down
29:22
from generation to generation. I know it's true. I don't know if
29:28
it's true. So how do you become a decider? Once again, you
29:34
become aware of the thoughts and you realize, oh, that was a
29:38
thought my mother told me. Oh, maybe true may not be true,
29:42
right. I'm more observing what's going on rather than I'm living
29:46
my life by what my mother said. Right?
29:49
Unknown: So you sort of learned to say, is that working for me?
29:53
Is that super ego that plays in my head? Don't you ever do that?
29:57
Don't Don't you ever fly in an airplane you will crash don't
29:59
you? for flying an airplane, there are patients who can't
30:02
find an airplane because their parents scared the bejesus out
30:04
of them. Maybe I maybe would like to try to find an airplane,
30:08
see, you know, I think this might work because I really want
30:10
to go to Italy, or wherever you want to go. So that's, again, a
30:14
simplistic example. But that's the kind of thing is that
30:17
working for me now that
30:20
Alan Carroll: with this, spend some time on that one. Because
30:24
most people have moral values. Correct. You live their life by
30:30
moral values, there's a right, and there's a wrong. And what
30:36
you're saying is that it works, or it doesn't work, is a better
30:42
way of looking at the behavior that that that you're doing
30:46
right now. So if it works, what would that look like working?
30:53
And if it doesn't work, what would not working look like?
30:57
Unknown: Well, this is a thing called the repetition compulsion
31:00
that Freud talks about that these interjects that get laid
31:03
into us from our parents, we just keep repeating them, and we
31:05
never question them. So in order for a person to change, they
31:09
have to start questioning does this work for me? And they
31:12
really have to explore. If I don't do it the same way. If I
31:16
don't ever take an aeroplane? How would I do something
31:19
differently? So they have to explore maybe step by step, how
31:24
they might change that, what the consequences of that might be,
31:28
will something terrible happen. But if you just went to the
31:31
airport, what if just one thing if I looked at some planes in
31:34
the sky, and see if how many of them crashed, I mean, that kind
31:37
of that kind of thing, that the patient has to talk about the
31:41
change behavior for a long time, because it's frightening. This
31:45
is what I was told works. And in my family, this worked, but I
31:49
don't like it. I want to do something else. But I'm too
31:51
afraid. So talking cure again, you just talk about all sorts of
31:56
possibilities of what might happen. And this could take a
32:00
year, this could take two years. And then eventually the patient
32:03
says I think I'm gonna do this. And they do it. And it works.
32:08
And there's ego boosting. There's I'm so much more
32:11
powerful now than I was before. I taken away some of that loop
32:15
that plays in my head that says, Don't do this ever. Which has
32:19
been closing my life and restricting my life.
32:22
Alan Carroll: You bet. It limits it's like being in a mental
32:26
prison. i Why, why is it that way? Because my mother said it
32:33
was that way. Have you ever opened the door and looked out?
32:38
Oh, it's dangerous out there. Right? Well, touch the door. To
32:44
door, there you go. Turn the knob. All right, you're still
32:48
alive. All right, you're still alive. Okay. The door. Sure,
32:53
that's great. That's guy I love talking to Barbara, this is,
32:57
this is a fun conversation. For me, I had
33:00
Unknown: a wonderful process, I find the work to be so
33:02
gratifying. Because when you see a person actually change, and do
33:07
something differently, it's tremendously gratifying to say,
33:11
Alan Carroll: I hear you, I hear you, I'm in the public speaking
33:15
business. And when you watch people who are uncomfortable
33:20
doing public speaking, and you're able to coach them with
33:24
this, a couple of things to do, and watch an immediate shift.
33:29
Perception. And what I focus on is that there's a there's this
33:36
sound that you make, and there's this sound that you make, and
33:40
between the sounds. There's nothing. And if you can create
33:46
the sound and create the nothing, you have control with
33:49
the timing, and control of the timing, you have control of
33:52
choice, and he asked yourself for who you're speaking for. I'm
33:56
speaking from my identity. Well then if you can control the
33:59
tongue of the identity, then you control the tongue of the ego.
34:02
And so now you can now you can consciously say I love you, and
34:07
build a positive with even if you don't believe it, it doesn't
34:10
make any difference. I break the air with love and love will
34:13
appear in the movie that you're watching.
34:15
Unknown: Yeah, that's wonderful. It's it's empowering to me and
34:19
probably to you to see someone else feel empowered.
34:22
Alan Carroll: Oh, yeah. It's like your purpose on life kind
34:26
of thing. It's like what are you here for? You're here to be of
34:30
service what kind of service you know what are you gonna do
34:32
something that will make people suffer less? Right
34:37
Unknown: and equal they are you want you really want to public
34:40
speak but you're terrified to do it. Find a way to get there
34:42
because that's what you want to do. Yeah.
34:46
Alan Carroll: Well, before we go, I do want to know more about
34:49
the book that you written where people can get it. What's it
34:52
about? Well, you shared a little bit what's that about? But there
34:55
might be some more things that you could you could share about
34:58
your your your novel
35:00
Unknown: Okay, tricycle is my first novel.
35:03
Alan Carroll: Let's spell it right, tr i
35:05
Unknown: or i skele tricel.
35:08
Alan Carroll: Now, what's the title? I mean? A very
35:12
Unknown: good question. A tricycle is an ancient Celtic
35:15
symbol of three interconnected spirals, they're interconnected
35:19
from the middle and three spirals come out of it. Okay?
35:22
Three is this sort of sacred number. So there are three
35:25
characters in the book try scale, who are intimately
35:29
connected, but they don't know it, they go through life, and
35:32
they end up meeting each other. And they have a tremendously
35:35
powerful effect upon each other. So that's sort of the premise of
35:38
the book. One is a psychoanalyst. And the other two
35:41
are siblings, who were separated early in birth because of family
35:45
dysfunction. And they end up randomly in New York City. And
35:50
they both have a relationship with the psychoanalyst. And then
35:53
you'll see what happens if they don't want to give anything
35:55
away. But there's a powerful unconscious connection, drawing
35:59
them together. Now, the unconscious is not a word I've
36:02
had mentioned so far. But psychoanalysis rests on the
36:06
belief that there are unconscious drives we have deep
36:09
in our ID that get expressed, and express through our behavior
36:14
and our actions. And the more we know what those drives are, the
36:18
better we are at making conscious choices for ourselves
36:21
that are good that are good for us.
36:23
Alan Carroll: The love low I, I told you early on the sort of a
36:28
young Indian guy, he calls it the collective unconscious, so
36:31
that we have this space that we're all connected to an ego is
36:35
like this thing on the surface. But there's a lot more to the
36:39
iceberg than just what you see on the surface. Exactly. And
36:42
that to me is the the idea of I'm interested in diving down
36:50
and exploring, right that that realm of unconsciousness, right.
36:56
So
36:57
Unknown: at an unconscious level, these two siblings really
37:00
wanted to reunite and through all sorts of circumstances they
37:03
were unable to. And somehow unconsciously they both ended up
37:08
in New York City. Is that a coincidence? Freud would say no,
37:12
I would say no, as well, since I made up the story. Right?
37:16
Alan Carroll: So there's, I would also say, No, I, I look at
37:20
that we're all we're all connected. The illusion is that
37:24
we're not correct. And yet, the analogy that I use Barber is the
37:29
electricity and the light bulb. All the light bulbs look
37:32
differently, but the electricity is the same. Right? As you get
37:36
into the body, you get into that electricity, you tap into that
37:39
universal awareness in which there is no resistance to what
37:43
is right. You are you're in love with. There's no judgement,
37:48
right? You don't get a longer judge you just love and
37:52
appreciate and, and your physical body is relaxed. As you
37:57
look at these things. You're not you are here. But I'm 75 years
38:03
old. I've been practicing and working on it for a long time.
38:06
And I just am 2121
38:14
Unknown: All right, yeah, the unconscious is a powerful force,
38:17
that we communicate with each other not knowing it sometimes.
38:21
Not that it's voodoo, or any weird stuff. But there, there
38:24
are connections, emotional feelings we get from each other,
38:27
that are not at the conscious level that we're not aware of.
38:29
So it's a powerful for us, I believe.
38:32
Alan Carroll: Could you talk a little bit about Jung's
38:34
archetypes as the major components of that stuff going
38:38
on underneath the surface?
38:41
Unknown: I guess archetypes relate to universal experiences
38:45
that people have and can relate to. I mean, I think one of
38:49
Jung's overarching themes is that life is a series of
38:52
separation and individuation. And that's so true for all of us
38:56
whatever archetype calls to us, or that we stem from, we are
39:00
sort of all universally going through this experience of being
39:03
born, growing older, standing up straight on our own, and then
39:07
eventually dying, which is a lifelong experience of
39:11
separation. So his idea of the universal universality of
39:16
people's traits and characteristics and things that
39:19
overlap. I mean, we read young in my institute, we accept a lot
39:23
of what he says his work on dreams is enormously an enormous
39:27
contribution. So there's a universality of all of our human
39:31
experiences, as you said, the electricity is the same. It just
39:35
pops up in different visuals for people and in different
39:38
behaviors. And as
39:39
Alan Carroll: you one of the probably I keep mentioning on my
39:42
podcast, everybody, I just got that I'm doing the Course of
39:46
Miracles. Written by a professor from the University in New York
39:52
City, it was it was written by it was, well, you call it cheap,
39:58
it came through her she didn't Write it just channeled, she
40:01
channeled it. And it's 365 lessons. And you do one a day.
40:06
And I'm two years into it, I haven't finished yet. So I'm not
40:09
doing my one today. But the very first lesson is to just look at
40:13
the world around, you look at the room around you look at all
40:16
the objects and things in the room and tell yourself, it
40:19
doesn't have any meaning. And immediately, you say, oh, no,
40:23
everything has a meaning. But that creates that the, the
40:29
thought that it doesn't have any meaning. And lesson number two
40:32
is now look at everything and realize that the meaning that
40:36
you see comes from you not from the object that you're looking
40:39
at, right? That does that anything from your point of view
40:42
can is that sort
40:44
Unknown: of like black and white thinking people think it's this
40:47
way, or it's that way, if I don't, if a person bothers me,
40:50
and I don't scream at them, I just have to be quiet. Well,
40:53
this gray area, there's something in between, you don't
40:56
just have to be silent and suffer or scream at them and
40:59
kill them. There might be something in the middle that you
41:01
can do some gray area, not sort of black and white thinking this
41:05
is what's going to happen. So I can't do that. And then you're
41:08
paralyzed, sitting on all these bad feelings, when you could
41:11
say, you know, excuse me, but that kind of hurt my feelings
41:13
when you said that. It's very, very different than patients who
41:16
will say this frequently. I didn't want to go off on the
41:18
person. Yeah, I wouldn't recommend going off on anybody.
41:22
But it would be nice if you could at least discharge your
41:25
feeling in an appropriate way that they could hear. So that
41:29
that reminds me of that, that it's not just this way or that
41:32
way. There's a whole gray area in between, I want to try
41:38
Alan Carroll: and discharge it in a way that they can hear it.
41:41
So discharge it I find discharged. But did they hear
41:46
it? Right? And to me, part of the part of it is the vibration
41:51
that you discharge that vibration, either it's one of a
41:55
loving vibration, or it's our it's an attack thought,
41:58
defending the ego, man, to me is a big difference between between
42:02
the very people speak, you know, most of them are defending their
42:06
opinion and their and their position. Right. And that's
42:10
creating.
42:11
Unknown: Right and I ask people, What is your goal? Do you want
42:14
to kill that person? And the relationship? Or do you want
42:17
explain what you need for the relationship to continue? What's
42:20
your goal?
42:22
Alan Carroll: I love it. Well, thank you, Barbara. How do we
42:25
get a hold of you? How can my audience where can they buy the
42:28
book? And where can they go and find more about you? You
42:32
Unknown: can buy the book and learn all about the on my
42:33
website, which is B D'Amato dot com. You can buy the book there.
42:41
It's on Kindle. And I have a paperback version. And all of my
42:44
contact information is there. And websites got a lot of
42:48
information.
42:49
Alan Carroll: Wonderful, wonderful. And all the
42:52
information will also be included in the show notes. So
42:55
when the podcast goes out, all that information will be there.
42:59
Well, I want to thank you very much for sharing yourself with
43:03
our audience today. Real, just really, really illuminating
43:09
because you have so much experiential light to shine on
43:12
the subject matter that it makes it a very bright conversation.
43:16
So thank you for bringing brightness into our in our life
43:19
today.
43:20
Unknown: Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure talking to you.
43:22
Your ideas are very simpatico I've really enjoyed it.
43:25
Alan Carroll: Well thank you very much, Barbara. Bye bye for
43:27
now. Bye bye