Latest / The Lila Rose Show / E169: The Truth About Assisted Suicide w/Dr Charlie Camosy

Transcript

E169: The Truth About Assisted Suicide w/Dr Charlie Camosy · The Lila Rose Show

0:00
As we reported Monday, California has now become the
0:02
5th state to legalize a so-called right to dialogue.
0:06
A bill expanding access to assisted death has received
0:09
royal assent. Just approved a bill to legalize
0:12
assisted dying after hours of debates, data.
0:16
Hello, everybody, welcome back to the Lila Rose show.
0:18
Today we've got breaking news out of the United Kingdom.
0:22
Parliament has just moved forward to approve assisted
0:26
dying, as they call it in the UK.
0:28
That's assisted suicide, meaning healthcare professionals can
0:31
help kill patients who want to commit suicide.
0:34
Absolutely tragic and heartbreaking.
0:36
We're going to be unpacking what this means with bioethicist and
0:40
author and professor Charlie Komosi in a few minutes, but I
0:43
wanted to give a few more headlines that are really
0:45
important about the emerging picture in the Western world,
0:49
where the Western world, Western civilization, is on a suicidal
0:54
mission, a mission for self destruction, where one country
0:59
after the next increasingly is legalizing suicide.
1:03
Imagine that you're driving over a bridge and you see some
1:07
commotion on the side of the road.
1:08
There's a man standing on a ledge about to jump off to his
1:11
death, clearly a troubled person.
1:14
And so there's police officers, there's passerby's who are
1:18
standing there trying to coax him off the ledge.
1:20
This is civilization at some of its best moments, people coming
1:24
around together to try to help somebody on the brink of death,
1:28
literally trying to kill themselves and instead trying to
1:31
help them save their life. And why?
1:33
Why do we do that? Because we value human life,
1:36
because human life is sacred. And nobody, not even the
1:40
individual, has the right to take a life, including their
1:43
own. That is the operational
1:45
assumption of Western civilization.
1:48
Human life is sacred. We should organize society to
1:51
protect human life. Human life is worth fighting for
1:54
and that nobody, especially not doctors, have the right to kill.
1:58
In fact, they have a responsibility to heal and to
2:01
help. This doesn't mean that we make
2:03
an idol out of life. We know that death is a part of
2:05
life, but there is a tremendous moral difference between taking
2:09
a life and allowing a life to die naturally.
2:13
And this distinction is of course at the root of all
2:16
ethical questions that are being made daily in hospitals dealing
2:20
with terminally ill patients or patients near the end of their
2:23
lives. So in the UK this last week, in
2:25
a 330 to 275 vote, so this was a margin of just 45 votes, the
2:31
House of Commons voted to allow the Terminally Ill Adults Bill,
2:35
which would grant the option of assisted dying, they call it, in
2:38
England and Wales with terminal diagnosis and a life expectancy
2:41
of six months or less. Now, this is actually very close
2:45
to what California currently has on the books.
2:48
So in the state of California, there is a law which permits
2:52
people to take their lives with the help of medical
2:55
professionals, provided that they are given only six months
2:58
to live by their doctor. They're 18 years old and they
3:01
have chosen this. I want to read briefly from an
3:03
article written by a woman whose husband committed suicide with
3:07
the help of a doctor in California just this last year.
3:11
And I thought this was a powerful depiction of what we're
3:13
really talking about. She says that he was very sick.
3:16
He was suffering from stage 4 lymphoma.
3:18
He wanted to end his life. And she goes on to say that they
3:23
requested this appointment and they sit down and he takes this
3:26
drug to kill himself. And she says, specifically, we
3:29
set up a comfortable outdoor space on the patio.
3:32
Gary was able to say goodbye to everyone he loved.
3:34
He was enshrouded in a bubble of love, she says.
3:38
She says I couldn't function. It was all too emotional.
3:41
Beautiful plants and flowers surrounded him.
3:43
He sucked on a popsicle to mask the bitter taste of the
3:46
medication. He passed out almost
3:48
immediately. She says it was as dignified as
3:52
anyone could want. Again, very subjective, but she
3:57
says yet the thought of it still burns.
4:00
I hope our story helps Californians better understand
4:02
their options. This is an example of trying to
4:06
paint it in the very best light. Somebody who took a drug to kill
4:10
themselves on their porch with the help of a doctor in the
4:12
state of California. And she says even though this
4:15
was dignified, she claims the wife, the thought of it still
4:18
burns it. It burns because you were there
4:21
at the murder of your husband, at the suicide of your husband.
4:24
And we see that in all of the arguments made for us, this is
4:28
dying. And we're going to get into some
4:29
of the best arguments made for assisted suicide.
4:32
Charlie is going to discuss them on the show in just a few
4:34
minutes. You see, at the core, what we're
4:36
dealing with is the killing. It is the killing of a
4:40
vulnerable patient. And I want to take a look too,
4:43
for you all about what's happening in Canada.
4:46
Canada has increasingly been legalizing assisted suicide and
4:51
increasingly legalizing it not just for people who are
4:53
terminally ill physically near the end of their lives or over
4:56
the age of 18, but also for people who choose to commit
5:00
suicide and get have the doctor help them even for quote UN
5:03
quote social reasons. This is an article from the
5:06
Guardian, and it says an expert committee reviewing euthanasia
5:09
deaths in Canada's most populous province has identified several
5:13
cases in which patients asked to be killed in part for social
5:17
reasons such as isolation and fears of homelessness.
5:23
So to horrifically tragic people dying because they're feel alone
5:28
and because they don't have a home.
5:31
And so they asked to have a doctor help them kill
5:34
themselves, basically have a doctor murder them because they
5:36
don't have a home. This is inevitably where
5:40
assisted suicide leads is it does lead to euthanasia.
5:45
It leads to people who are weak not just because they're near
5:48
the end of their life physically, but sometimes
5:50
mentally weak or sometimes even mentally incapable.
5:54
And we're going to actually talk about that with Charlie.
5:56
A case of a woman who was suffering from dementia and she
5:59
fought against her family and the doctor trying to give her a
6:02
lethal injection, and they prevailed and killed her.
6:05
This is the direction that Western civilization will go if
6:09
we don't stop it. And so I'm sharing this episode
6:12
with you as a urgent NEWS UPDATE about what is happening right
6:17
now in the West. We're going to be deep diving
6:19
this more in future episodes, but here's my conversation with
6:23
Charlie Kamosi, bioethicist, professor and author of eight
6:27
books. Charlie, thanks so much for
6:29
joining the podcast. Hi, Lila, good for you to be
6:31
with you. Did I get it right?
6:33
Is it 8 books now? It is 8 with two on the way
6:37
working in a way at those two as well so.
6:40
Amazing. Congratulations.
6:42
For those that aren't familiar with your work yet, Charlie,
6:45
give us a little bit of background on yourself and your
6:47
work. Well, I've been in the Academy
6:50
now for almost 16 years and I am a moral theologian and
6:54
bioethicists and for a long time spent most of my time on
6:59
beginning of life issues. I wrote a book called Beyond the
7:01
Abortion Wars and really thought long and hard about how to try
7:06
to win the pro-life movement, inspired by people like you and
7:09
others at Live Action, but also in the academic world.
7:14
And one of those people I engage in the academic world is a
7:18
philosopher named Peter Singer, a secular philosopher who you
7:22
might think a pro-life academic like me wouldn't have much in
7:24
common with. But on the end of life issues
7:26
we're talking about today, the beginning of life issues we're
7:29
going to talk about some other time and many other issues.
7:32
I think the engagement with secular bioethics is so
7:35
important because it really shows the kind of dark places
7:38
that we're headed right now. So let's start there with the
7:41
dark places we're headed because that's the headlines just a few
7:44
days ago coming out of the UK. And then there's, you know, news
7:48
stories cropping up here in California about a push to
7:51
legalize assisted suicide in California.
7:55
There is already some law legalizing it in very rare
7:58
cases, but it's there's a push to do more of that.
8:01
Can you start us with the lay of the land?
8:03
This is a big question, but what is the general Western world
8:07
looking like when it comes to permitting assisted suicide?
8:11
And also give us a definition of what we're talking about for
8:14
people's clarity. There is a lot of I think
8:17
misunderstanding today and and when the definitions are not
8:19
clear. That's how I think
8:21
unfortunately, that the lobby to legalize assisted suicide can
8:25
get away with literally, I believe murder, but give us give
8:28
us the lay of the land. I'm so excited to share about
8:30
our partner. Fount of grace.com.
8:33
Fount of Grace creates the most beautiful handcrafted,
8:36
exclusively designed necklaces, earrings, rings and rosaries
8:41
that make incredible gifts for your loved one.
8:43
These are hand casts made from precious metals with these
8:46
beautiful designs that you'll love to wear or your loved one
8:49
will love to wear. Fount of Grace is also American
8:52
designed and made. So this is a family business
8:55
that sources their product in the United States.
8:57
And I am wearing one of their pieces here, this beautiful
9:00
necklace. I have been wearing it for the
9:02
last few weeks. I think you'll love their stuff.
9:04
It's delicate, it's beautifully designed.
9:06
And if you order from foundofgrace.com today, you can
9:10
get $15 off any order using the code Lila at checkout.
9:14
So go to foundofgrace.com today and use the code Lila at
9:18
checkout. You will get $15 off your order
9:21
and get a beautifully packaged Fount of Grace exclusive piece
9:24
to give as a gift for yourself or for a loved one.
9:27
Check them out today. That's Fount of grace.com.
9:30
So, so maybe start with what this even is.
9:33
So let's try to define what assisted suicide is.
9:35
Assisted suicide is the participation of a healthcare
9:39
provider usually, but not only a physician to help somebody kill
9:43
themselves to, to commit suicide.
9:45
I, I tend to use the word killing.
9:47
I talk about physician assisted killing even more because
9:50
sometimes in, in, in circumstances there isn't a kind
9:53
of cooperation of the individual.
9:56
So for instance, in a case where someone has dementia early on,
9:58
this happened in the Netherlands a few years ago, someone with
10:02
early stage dementia said, hey, I want physician assisted
10:04
suicide. And then later as a progress of
10:07
the disease went forward, when they gave it, they gave them the
10:11
deadly drug. It didn't kill them right away
10:13
and they were struggling and they were pushing back against
10:16
the attempt to kill them. And so I think it's better
10:18
described as physician assisted killing, which is also a kind of
10:21
euthanasia. If we're going to talk about how
10:23
this is spread, how this is going sort of right now, the
10:27
United States is a pretty complicated place when it comes
10:29
to it. A significant number of states
10:32
have legalized it, but a significant number of also kept
10:36
it at Bay. So we're my current book
10:38
project, the title of working title is A Culture on the Brink.
10:42
So I think we're on the brink in the United States of sort of
10:44
tipping one way or the other on this.
10:46
And I do think there is interesting places where this
10:49
isn't being legalized. So in deep blue states out here
10:51
on the East Coast where I work, New York, Connecticut, Maryland,
10:56
have all rejected it for many years now.
10:58
In fact, I've rejected it. Other states like California,
11:02
New Jersey, where I live, Oregon, Washington, there's been
11:07
some slippage, some really bad slippage on this in Europe.
11:11
Certain states, countries there have had it for quite a while,
11:14
the Netherlands and Belgium and Switzerland has the something
11:20
called Dignitas, which is essentially assisted suicide
11:22
tourism, where people who have had it illegal in their country
11:26
or their state can go and get it done.
11:28
In Switzerland, that's been around for a while.
11:31
But as you point out, there was a big vote recently in the
11:34
United Kingdom, a first vote, I guess I'm not an expert on UK
11:38
politics, but I think they have to go through a couple more
11:39
votes to formally legalize it. But the first vote there was a
11:43
slippage in the United Kingdom, which is a big, big development
11:46
as well. So the slippage that's in the
11:49
news right now in the United Kingdom, as you call it, the
11:51
slippage towards, you know, don't going from the brink,
11:54
plunging into the abyss of of a culture of death.
11:58
My understanding is the Prime Minister has said that he would,
12:01
you know, sign into law. I don't know exactly how British
12:04
politics works as well, but he would ultimately say yes to a
12:08
law that Parliament would, would want to approve assisted suicide
12:12
in the sit in the country. So it looks like, you know, what
12:16
is there hope in the UK that they'll be able to stop this.
12:19
I, I understand the vote was very close.
12:22
What do you know about what's going on in the UK right now?
12:25
What I've I've read is that it, what passed was something called
12:29
the second reading and it still needs to be passed, I think by
12:33
the House of Lords and also by a third reading in the House of
12:37
Commons. And what I've seen, I don't know
12:39
how real this is, but there's some hope out there that I've
12:41
seen, which is I think a number of people, MPs, members of
12:46
Parliament voted for this in part to continue the debate and
12:51
may in fact be persuadable to vote against it in the third
12:53
reading. And so the vote was actually
12:55
close enough that the number of people who did that could in
12:57
fact change their minds. Now, I'm not, I'm not a
13:00
political insider of any kind when it comes to this.
13:02
I don't know what could happen. But it signs point to not so
13:06
good right now, but maybe not totally despondent.
13:08
What is the steelman argument to make for assisted suicide?
13:11
What are the arguments that folks are currently making in
13:15
the UK to say we need to have this, we shouldn't have to
13:17
travel to Switzerland and do a tourism.
13:20
If we want to end our lives, we should be be able to do this.
13:22
This is the humane thing to do. What I'm going to give you the
13:26
Steel Man argument. I don't think it's the most
13:29
common version of the argument. I think the most common version
13:32
is a pretty bad argument, which is people should just sort of be
13:34
able to do what they want, right?
13:36
That's just sort of a straight up no chaser autonomy.
13:39
I get to do what I want regardless of who that hurts,
13:41
regardless of the kind of society produces, regardless of
13:44
what that does to the very concept of medicine itself.
13:47
I get to do what I want because I'm autonomous and I'm strong
13:51
and I can make these decisions. It's a terrible argument.
13:54
We can get into reasons for why that's terrible, and I suggested
13:56
some of them just now. But maybe if we're going to
13:58
steal man, the argument would be something like this.
14:02
There are disadvantaged people who don't have access to the
14:06
best palliative care, the best pain management, and they die in
14:10
some cases in very terrible agony.
14:12
And who in their right minds and in the right heart could sit
14:18
back and watch that happen? Who would not want to intervene
14:22
to protect individuals, to help give people a kind of way out
14:26
from that kind of horrific agony?
14:29
And therefore we need physician assisted killing to help people
14:33
in those stages. Now, I think it's important to
14:37
mention, very important to mention that in almost every
14:41
survey that's done on this, that kind of scenario, though, it's
14:45
very persuasive, it's very sympathy.
14:47
It produces a lot of sympathy, doesn't even make the top five
14:52
reasons people actually request physician assisted killing.
14:55
So Oregon has been keeping track of this for, you know, for a
14:57
while. The top reason why people
15:00
request physician assisted killing in Oregon is because
15:02
they fear their loss of their autonomy.
15:05
Also high on the list, fear of being a burden on others, fear
15:10
of loss of enjoyable activities. Again, physical pain and
15:15
suffering doesn't even make the top five reasons.
15:17
So this is and, and also shouldn't we be, this is a this
15:21
was a big focus of the UK debate.
15:23
Shouldn't we be focused actually on better palliative care?
15:27
In my time when I was at Fordham before my current job, I took
15:31
some of my students to a service learning part of their bioethics
15:35
course at Calvary Hospice Hospital in the Bronx run by a
15:40
just an amazing physician who who said we never get any
15:44
requests for people to end their lives here.
15:46
We never are unable to control their pain here, in fact.
15:50
And so we don't need to choose in fact, between being
15:53
sympathetic to people in those very desperate, very real, very
15:58
difficult situations. Let's not, you know, you know,
16:03
paper over that. Let's deal with that.
16:04
And it is in its full reality. Let's acknowledge that we can
16:08
focus on getting people better palliative care and we don't
16:11
need to kill them. We can kill the pain.
16:13
We don't need to kill the patient.
16:14
So walk us through what is palliative care and can you also
16:20
explain the distinction between using as an example, morphine, A
16:24
painkiller to alleviate suffering towards the end of
16:28
life? And it can also sometimes
16:31
increase the likelihood of death, is my understanding,
16:34
because the patient may forgo food and water or other things
16:37
because they're in a certain drug state.
16:40
But how certain drugs to alleviate suffering may also
16:44
have an effect of accelerating a near death that may be
16:49
happening, but that is different, incredibly different.
16:53
The the moral distinction is huge between that and then using
16:57
drugs to ultimately kill a patient, using lethal drugs to
17:01
end the patient's life. Huge thank you to our sponsor.
17:04
Good ranchersgoodranchers.com is American meat delivered.
17:08
This is meat 100% sourced in the United States from American
17:11
farmers and ranchers. You can get your beef, your
17:14
pork, your poultry, your seafood all from goodranchers.com.
17:18
The steaks are absolutely delicious.
17:19
I know from personal experience. And even better is their
17:21
chicken. I love it.
17:22
It's tender, juicy, flavorful, all the things that you could
17:25
want. And goodranchers.com is doing an
17:27
amazing special right now where if you order any subscription
17:31
box, you will get one whole free year of a free add on of your
17:35
choice. That's a free add on of ground
17:37
beef, chicken breasts. I highly recommend those salmon
17:41
or bacon. And if you use the code of Lila
17:44
at checkout, you will get not only your free add on for a
17:47
year, but you will get $25 off your first order as well as fast
17:51
free shipping. That's goodranchers.com.
17:53
American meat delivered. Yeah, this is where some of if
17:57
we're going to steal man the argument again in a different
17:59
way. We can say actually what what
18:04
many of us in the pro-life movement who want to defend the
18:08
dignity of the human person at this stage of life would permit
18:11
sometimes looks an awful lot like the very thing that we're
18:14
criticizing. But it's important to make the
18:18
distinction you just made. So let's make it when one is
18:22
aiming at killing the pain of the patient via morphine, that's
18:27
quite different from aiming at the death of the person via
18:29
morphine, right? So if I were to say, OK, my
18:34
relative is in terrible pain right now.
18:37
I want to kill the pain in order to kill the pain.
18:39
I get it. I got to give them X amount of
18:41
work morphine, right? And I foresee, but don't intend,
18:45
actually don't intend that this may in fact lead to their death
18:48
or lead to their death being speed up, perhaps because it
18:52
inhibits respiration or like you said, in conjunction with lack
18:56
of nutrition and hydration, this may in fact speed up their
18:59
death. But I don't intend it.
19:00
I just merely foresee it. That can be totally legitimate.
19:04
In fact is totally legitimate. Almost everyone sort of agrees
19:06
with that. If, however, if, however, one
19:09
isn't using the morphine to aim at the death of the patient,
19:12
right, to say like I'm going to give you X amount of morphine so
19:15
that you die, right, Right. I intend to kill you to save the
19:19
pain. I'm not killing the pain, I'm
19:21
killing the patient, right? That's the, that's the, that's
19:23
the goal. Then that's deeply problematic.
19:26
That's euthanasia, that's assisted suicide and that aims
19:28
at the death of an individual. But you can see how if you're
19:32
not attentive to that very important distinction.
19:34
And here's, here's one way I like to think about the
19:36
distinction. I sometimes call it the Komosi
19:39
piss test. My students don't necessarily
19:41
like it when I when I invoke this, but imagine that the
19:44
person survives, right? Imagine the person survives in
19:47
the first scenario. One is overjoyed, right?
19:50
Because one was never aiming at the death of the person.
19:52
They were aiming at killing the pain, right?
19:54
Not the person. And the second scenario, if the
19:56
person survived, 1 is not happy, right?
19:58
Because the whole point of using that morphine was in fact to
20:01
kill the patient. So that's not that.
20:04
That test can sometimes be used to sort of illustrate the
20:06
difference between what on the surface might look very similar,
20:09
but is in fact totally morally different.
20:11
Can you walk us through the difference between an
20:14
extraordinary measure that someone may be getting to
20:19
sustain their life versus foregoing that extraordinary
20:23
measure? And that might be in a case, you
20:26
know, you know, help breathing, you know, respiratory assistance
20:31
and how in one case this can be completely listed and and
20:34
someone could even pass away because they say no to an
20:38
extraordinary measure. But in another situation, in
20:40
context, this extraordinary measure is not extraordinary.
20:45
And they would they would need to be given it and otherwise not
20:48
giving the patient this care would be actually actually a
20:52
violation of the Hippocratic Oath to protect that patients
20:56
life. I think this is again where the
20:57
context of what the patient is enduring or the state of the
21:01
patient is crucial when deciding what are the ethical treatments
21:04
and what are the non ethical treatments.
21:07
Yeah, this is this is something I focus in on my my current book
21:10
project in a very serious way as well.
21:13
For the for your viewers or listeners who are Christians,
21:15
it's probably no surprise to think about the fact that
21:19
pursuing life at any cost, literally any cost, is an
21:22
example of idolatry and not something we should be pursuing,
21:24
right. Christ on the cross is a very
21:27
classic example of this. The martyrs of old, of course,
21:30
and the martyrs of recent vintage, of course too.
21:34
So grasping for more life at any cost is not at all what pro
21:37
lifers stand for. Quite the contrary.
21:40
I mean, there may be very important considerations that
21:43
would involve, again with the example we just used, right,
21:47
Morphine to control a patient's life.
21:49
Could one force, one could foresee that that would be the
21:51
result of this, but but it's not what we're aiming at, right?
21:55
So totally legitimate. Another example would be a
21:59
ventilator, right? If somebody were to say like, I
22:02
am not choosing to kill myself, I'm just choosing that I don't
22:05
want my last remaining days to be on a ventilator.
22:09
But I'm not even in my death. In fact, if you take me off the
22:13
vent and I continue to breathe, that doesn't frustrate me.
22:15
I'm not upset about that because again, I wasn't aiming at my own
22:18
death. I was choosing.
22:19
It's a choice about how to live, not a choice about how to die.
22:23
Similar things could be said about the levels of say
22:25
chemotherapy with end stage cancer in the back in the day,
22:29
they would say, and sometimes now they suggest, you know,
22:32
maybe if you move to a different climate, you could live a few
22:35
more years, right? Or or have an extended time.
22:38
Nobody is saying that you can't choose to stay at home in the
22:41
home of your ancestors or where your kids or family is to die in
22:45
their particular area, even though you might live a bit
22:47
longer if you move down South or you move to a desert area or
22:49
something like this. So there's tons of examples
22:52
where we would say totally legitimate to choose to live
22:56
this way foreseen but not intending death might come
22:58
sooner. But as long as you're not aiming
23:01
at death, that can certainly be justified.
23:03
Now, let me also say though, and this is important, one can also
23:08
by omission aim at death. So it's not just, you know,
23:11
giving somebody a pill in their coffee is happening with a
23:13
dementia patient. And the Netherlands is not just
23:16
giving somebody an injection or this horrible new suicide
23:19
suicide machine. I don't know if you're you or
23:21
your listeners have seen this. One can aim at death by
23:25
omission. I happen to be Catholic.
23:27
The Catholic definition of euthanasia is an act or an
23:30
omission, which of itself are by intention causes death.
23:33
And I think intuitively many people of all different
23:36
perspectives can say, well, I can aim at death by omission,
23:38
right? I can choose not to help
23:39
somebody so that they die, right?
23:42
And so removing food and water, not not engaging with food and
23:46
water, refusing to intubate somebody because they're
23:49
disabled. That was something that happened
23:52
during the pandemic. Unfortunately, in some
23:53
circumstances, one can still aim at death by omission as well.
23:59
And so the real key is to think hard about whether we're aiming
24:03
at death or not. So what are some practical
24:07
bright lines for how to do that in the medical field and then
24:11
also for family members or friends?
24:14
And you're trying to make judgment calls for your loved
24:17
one about what treatments to say yes or no to.
24:20
Are there bright lines that folks should be familiar with?
24:24
And then as part of that, why is it always wrong to ever seek
24:27
death for a patient? Give us that argument too,
24:29
because I think we're, we've sort of been presupposing that
24:32
as a, as a premise here in our conversation.
24:34
But I do think making that case is important, especially in
24:36
today's day and age. Yeah, well, I mean that gets to
24:40
fundamental first principles about theology and philosophy
24:43
and like what we believe to be ultimately true about reality.
24:46
And if if we think that human beings are the kinds of
24:48
creatures that have irreducible value, that have value that's
24:52
not based on contingent things like how much you cost or how
24:56
much relative ability you have or what sort of productivity
25:01
level you have in society. One of the phrases I hate most
25:05
is productive member of society. Can we please stop saying this
25:08
is if this has some sort of indication for how much value
25:11
someone has, whether you're a productive member of society,
25:14
That's not why human beings have value.
25:16
And aiming at the death of of people, making, making, trying
25:21
to make them dead is a direct attack on that inherent dignity,
25:24
right? And that's why so many people,
25:26
including secular people, believe that we should never do
25:30
this. And fundamental human equality
25:31
says we should never do this, regardless of the circumstance
25:34
in which a human being finds himself.
25:36
Young, old, disabled, poor, rich, doesn't matter.
25:39
Those are all accidental traits. The essential value is the
25:42
dignity of a human person. And I'd also say in the context
25:47
of healthcare, it adds another layer to this, which is
25:50
healthcare providers are, it turns out, supposed to provide
25:55
healthcare, right? They're supposed to aim at
25:57
improving the health of their patients.
26:01
There's no way in which we can describe killing patients,
26:04
aiming at the death of their patients, as somehow consistent
26:06
to what it means to provide healthcare.
26:08
This is one of the big points I think we need to make about this
26:11
in the United Kingdom and many other places is once you allow
26:14
this to happen, once you say healthcare providers can kill
26:17
their patients and still call it healthcare, you've lost any
26:20
coherent sense of what healthcare actually is.
26:22
I, I call it the Burger Kingification of healthcare.
26:26
It's just if you get it your way, it's the fast food.
26:28
It's like the customer's always right.
26:30
There's no professional ends based understanding of what this
26:34
even is anymore, right? It's just whatever you can
26:36
provide. We can make a contract and you
26:38
can give it to me and that's it. So we're it, We in fact will
26:41
lose, We are in the process of losing the very notion of what
26:44
it means to provide healthcare as a coherent concept at all.
26:48
What are some of the bright lines that family members and
26:51
people should be aware of when they're dealing with medical
26:54
professionals, especially in a state like California where
26:56
assisted suicide is legal now, it needs to be asked for within
27:01
six months of the terminal diagnosis, meaning that they're
27:05
told they're going to die in six months and needs to be asked by
27:07
an adult over the age of 18. So there's not like you're going
27:09
to be in a hospital in California and, you know,
27:11
hopefully killed, but hopefully not killed by some nurse.
27:15
That's not the state, at least not yet of the of of our state.
27:20
But what are some things that you would recommend family
27:22
members be on the lookout in the United States particularly and
27:26
in other places? We have listeners from all over
27:27
the world when they're dealing with medical professionals,
27:30
especially for loved ones who are weak, whether they're having
27:34
mental issues or they're physically suffering or near the
27:37
end of end of their lives. everylife.com is America's
27:40
fastest growing baby diaper and wipes company.
27:44
I love Every Life because this is a premium product made from
27:47
the best materials for your little one and everylife.com is
27:50
a pro-life company. When you go to
27:52
everylife.com/join, you can join the Changing Lives Club.
27:56
This way you can set up a subscription to get your diapers
27:59
and your wipes. These premium products delivered
28:01
right to your door for your little one.
28:02
And after three months of the subscription, you will be able
28:06
to donate for free a month's supply of diapers to a mom and a
28:10
baby in need. So what are you waiting for?
28:12
Go to everylife.com/join, join the Changing Lives Club, use the
28:16
code LILAT Checkout, get 10% off your order, start your
28:20
subscription, and after three months you can donate a full
28:22
month supply of diapers to a mom and a baby in need.
28:26
This is such an important question and it's a focus on my
28:30
book. In fact, I just finished an
28:31
appendix to the book last week where I was trying to layout
28:35
some just like flip to the back of the book type things when
28:38
your loved one gets sicker in the situation to describe
28:40
precisely that. So I have a couple of these sort
28:42
of ready to hand. One of them is is to is.
28:45
It's not a bright line, but it's a more of a strategy.
28:47
It's basically be the squeaky wheel, right?
28:50
Be the loud person, be the person who is is not necessarily
28:54
obnoxious, but the person who is asking questions, the person who
28:57
is talking to the nurses, the person who is making sure that
29:01
the social workers know exactly what's going on.
29:03
The person who is willing to call an ethics consult, The
29:05
person who knows their legal rights, the person who is
29:09
informed on the current law in their state, right?
29:12
And be the person that shows up right in the clinic in the in
29:17
the care home. Don't be the person that just
29:20
calls in once in a while. Let the staff know that you're
29:23
going to be there and you're going to be present and that you
29:25
want the wishes of your family member to be respected.
29:28
Red flags would be those that, for instance, just are hostile
29:32
to this sense of how to do things.
29:35
So if you say something like, I believe food and water is not
29:41
medical treatment, but just basic care for individuals.
29:45
And so we will not be removing food and water from my mother.
29:49
And people look at you like you got a third eye or something.
29:52
That's that's a obviously a red flag.
29:55
The more it's not always the case, but the more that the
29:58
medical team talks about things like quality of life and you
30:03
don't, you of course wouldn't want your loved one to be on all
30:05
these machines and having those things.
30:07
And again, based on what we just talked about you, one could of
30:09
course choose to forgo those. But if that's not what the
30:14
patient wants, if that's not what you and your family have
30:16
decided you want, that sort of language can also be a red flag.
30:20
I'd also come back to the PIS test or the upset test, like how
30:25
it just try to play it out. Like if the person lived, would
30:30
this be consistent with the goals of the procedures and
30:34
other kinds of things that are being done here?
30:35
If they live, would it be OK? Probably you're in the clear if
30:38
if you get the sense that whatever is going on here is
30:42
sort of aiming at the death would result in the person's
30:45
death and the person survive. It wouldn't be consistent with
30:48
what the medical team is is after.
30:51
That's also a deep red flag as well.
30:52
In your book, as you're doing the work for your book, Charlie,
30:56
are you looking at the stories of families who have had
31:00
basically bad things happen to them because of their medical
31:04
professionals who were more interested in hastening death
31:07
than they were about sustaining life?
31:11
Yeah, absolutely. It's, I don't want to impugn a
31:15
whole profession and I won't impugn a whole profession.
31:18
There are plenty of very good physicians, nurses, medical
31:22
teams, hospital administrators out there.
31:26
And especially if one is in a Catholic hospital, 1 can point
31:29
to the ethical and religious directives, whether one is
31:31
Catholic or not, and say this is what you guys stand for and hold
31:34
them accountable to those. That's another place to go.
31:37
Maybe in terms of recommendations is if you have a
31:39
choice, maybe you want to be seen in a Catholic hospital
31:41
where you can hold the staff accountable to the ethical
31:44
religious directives. But I will say in other
31:48
contexts, and sometimes unfortunately in Catholic
31:51
contexts as well, there are medical teams that will try to
31:54
take advantage of the situation and try to say, especially when
31:59
a person is vulnerable, when a person doesn't speak English,
32:02
when a person is alone and not doesn't have someone advocating
32:05
for them to kind of work their will to try to move things in
32:08
the direction that they want it moved.
32:10
And sometimes it's as subtle as just the way something is
32:12
described again, like, well, you want it.
32:15
You wouldn't want us to pound on your chest and put tubes inside
32:17
you, right? And that might result in a DNRA
32:20
do not resuscitate order that maybe wasn't explicitly given.
32:24
Certainly this is what happens in the United Kingdom,
32:26
unfortunately. Another example, it's tough to
32:29
talk about, but it's real, is something called slow and show
32:33
coding. So if a patient or their proxy
32:37
says we want full code, you want everything done for this
32:40
patient, which again is not required, but the legitimate
32:43
choice of many people. Sometimes the medical team that
32:46
disagrees with that full code will do what's called a slow or
32:50
a show called. They'll pretend they're going
32:52
full code. They'll pretend they're going
32:53
through the process of of doing everything.
32:56
But in reality, because they disagree with the decision,
32:59
they're really aiming at the death of an individual by by
33:02
omission, right? They're saying, I don't.
33:04
It's not always the case, but in some cases they made the
33:06
judgement. This person is too disabled,
33:09
they're in too much pain. Who would want to live like
33:11
this? And they're making their own
33:12
judgements about that situation and then slower show code the
33:16
situation the way in order to try to get the situation they
33:19
want to get. Do you have stories?
33:21
Have you talked to families who have experienced some of this in
33:24
the US? Oh, yeah.
33:28
As I think you know, I was on Tucker Carlson show recently,
33:31
and as you may imagine, I got tons of emails after that
33:35
appearance and the comments on the YouTube link for the show.
33:42
Example after example after example after endless example of
33:46
this. And here's maybe an important
33:48
point we could drive home. So much of this is driven by
33:51
judgments about, as I mentioned before, the level of disability
33:55
of the individual, right? Maybe they have a catastrophic
33:58
brain injury or they're a paraplegic or they have spina
34:00
bifida or something like this. And I think it's just important
34:04
to say most of these professions, and that's not
34:07
limited to physicians, but those that are privileged come from
34:09
levels of privilege, tend to make these judgments about their
34:12
quality of life. In fact, there's some data to
34:15
show that physicians rate the quality of life of their
34:17
patients 2 points on a 10 point scale, less than the patients
34:21
themselves. And and so almost all of these
34:27
stories, Lila, were examples of from the beginning of life, but
34:31
also the end of life, where very clearly there was an ableist
34:35
judgement being made. And here is a very important
34:37
point to drive home in light of that, our strongest allies in
34:41
these fights very often are disability rights groups.
34:44
Those who are willing to say, you know what you're telling us
34:46
when you say people who've lost their autonomy, people have lost
34:50
enjoyable activities, people who are fear being a burden on
34:54
others should maybe think about killing themselves.
34:57
You're talking about us. You're talking about our
34:59
communities. And if that's the case, that is
35:02
abhorrent. We tried to leave this whole
35:04
notion behind after the Nuremberg trials, right?
35:06
We have not left it behind. In fact, we're re engaging the
35:10
horrific sort of logic of this. And I think just to go back to
35:13
that one example of the person with dementia in the
35:15
Netherlands, they were struggling.
35:18
They they put the drug in the coffee.
35:21
I did not kill them. The person was struggling,
35:23
clearly not on board with whatever was happening.
35:26
The family and the physician held them down and finished.
35:28
The what? What does that mean?
35:29
They finished the job. Well, I don't know exactly how
35:32
they feel. That's why I want to be
35:34
extremely careful about this. But, and so I'd have to go back
35:37
to the actual article, but what I feel very comfortable saying
35:39
is that they had to physically restrain the person to finish
35:42
the job, whether it was giving them another drink or giving
35:44
them an injection of some kind. But once we're in that
35:47
territory, I mean, what, what are we talking about here?
35:50
I mean, we're talking about something that's akin to the
35:53
very things we put people on trial for in Nuremberg.
35:56
And we said never again. And we're not there yet.
35:59
Let's be clear, not every case is like that.
36:01
That's a pretty dramatic example.
36:03
But the very fact that we would go there and, and, and engage in
36:07
that kind of logic. And we have a dementia crisis
36:09
where this problem is just going to present itself more and more
36:13
often. And, and especially cultures
36:15
like the United Kingdom and Canada and certain states where
36:17
they have a crisis of resources to care for people in these
36:21
cases, there's going to be incredible amount of pressure to
36:24
expand this to kill people with catastrophic brain injuries,
36:27
people with dementia and other cases as well.
36:29
There is I think an argument that some make that say, well,
36:33
the hospital system wants to do endless procedures because they
36:37
can build more for it and they make more money the sicker you
36:41
are and in a sense the longer you live.
36:44
Why, why would a hospital system or hospital staff and why
36:48
increasing or many of them interested actually in, you
36:51
know, potentially ending the life of the patient and not
36:53
extending, continuing to extend care.
36:57
And how does that fit with the narrative that, well, some of
37:00
these people are and these systems are in it for the for
37:02
money? Yeah.
37:04
I mean, I think that's a legitimate critique in many
37:06
circumstances and that that gets, I don't think we want to
37:09
lose sight of the our previous discussion about idolatry and
37:12
extending life at any cost and the possible incentives that
37:17
some hospitals and healthcare providers might have to, to do
37:24
precisely that. Unfortunately, there is all
37:27
sorts of other pressures in other ways that that produce a
37:32
very different kind of push for instance, in California and in
37:36
in another in other places as well.
37:39
The case I'm thinking about is in California, medical was asked
37:43
to cover a particular kind of cancer treatment by a patient
37:48
under medical. Medical said no, we're not going
37:51
to cover that cancer treatment, but hey, we got physician
37:55
assisted killing for you if you want.
37:59
And again, if you think about the huge financial pressures
38:03
that Medicaid and medical and other systems around the world
38:07
are under, it has a certain kind of logic to it has a certain
38:10
kind of understanding. Well, we're not forcing them to
38:13
do it. We're just giving them the
38:13
option, right? But again, if we if we think of
38:16
people under the kind of pressure that they feel that
38:19
lead them to this especially being a burden on others, then
38:24
we can see it ahead. This has a pernicious logic all
38:26
its own. So yes, in certain
38:27
circumstances, the pressure would go one way, maybe towards
38:30
overtreatment. We need to avoid that.
38:32
But in many other circumstances, the pressure is going quite a
38:34
different way. I was looking up the case you
38:37
were referencing the coffee euthanasia case, and you had,
38:40
you were right. I mean, this is a 74 year old
38:42
woman who had Alzheimer's and early on in the disease she was
38:46
saying she would want to die before going into a care home
38:50
and they administered the initial drug in her coffee.
38:52
She didn't die. She sat up and tried to pull
38:54
away from the administering of a second drug.
38:57
And they they held her down and forcibly killed her.
39:00
And that's what caused so much consternation in the
39:03
Netherlands, as it should, because someone in there, I mean
39:06
someone in at the brink of death.
39:07
I mean, I could imagine someone saying I would want to die, I
39:10
would want to die if. But does that give them, first
39:13
of all themselves the right to kill themselves or anyone else
39:15
the right to kill them? Yeah.
39:19
And two things, two more things to say about that.
39:21
The Doctor Who did that was not convicted of any crime.
39:26
A second thing is what is the presumption right?
39:29
If if if somebody were to quote a quote wake up in that
39:34
circumstance is clearly struggling, why would the
39:36
presumption be to kill them, right?
39:38
Why wouldn't the presumption be to at least stop right and say,
39:42
well, we're in this new situation here.
39:43
We thought the person would be dead from the drug in the
39:45
coffee. They're clearly not now they're
39:47
struggling. We have this new situation.
39:49
Let's maybe evaluate it. Let's pause for a few days.
39:53
Let's try to figure out how to handle the situation, maybe even
39:56
try it if they have moments of lucidity, try to discern what it
39:59
is they want Now, if it's different from what they wanted
40:02
before, that wasn't at all right.
40:05
The reaction, the reaction was, hey, it's time for them to die
40:08
right now. And that, that's the kind of,
40:10
and of course, it has to do with their disability, right?
40:12
Like, how could it not? This is a judgement about the
40:14
quality of life, of course, about people with Alzheimer's
40:17
disease with later stage dementia.
40:19
And again, I we have this crisis upon us now, Lila, right now we,
40:25
we put these individuals essentially in way stations of
40:28
death and care homes where they're desperately lonely.
40:30
Sometimes they put them in the New York Times at an expose and
40:33
said they often put them in what's called chemical
40:35
straitjackets, which is essentially giving them
40:37
antipsychotic drugs when they have no psychosis.
40:40
But it because it keeps them docile, they do it anyway.
40:43
And it double S their chance of death.
40:44
It double S their chance of death and they do it anyway.
40:46
But but Lila, in 20 years, the number of people with dementia
40:49
is going to double in 30 years, if nothing is done, it's going
40:52
to triple if we're already doing this now, right?
40:56
And, and California is trying as as we speak, the people pushing
41:00
the for assisted suicide expansion in California are
41:02
trying to devise a way to expand assisted suicide in California,
41:06
specifically to kill people with dementia, Alzheimer's disease.
41:09
I mean, what are we going to do? I mean, I'm as pro-life as they
41:13
come, as you know, but even I would look at the situation and
41:15
say, well, what are my options here, right?
41:16
I can waste away in this terrible place and watch cable
41:21
news all day and maybe be talked to by a robot or and given a
41:25
chemical straitjacket which keeps me docile or I could
41:29
choose this, right? Those aren't great options, but
41:31
I can understand it's wrong. But I can understand why someone
41:33
would be tempted to have physician assisted suicide.
41:36
But that is, that is the very definition of coercion, right?
41:39
That is not a free choice. That is, that is a horrific
41:42
coercion of people who are incredibly vulnerable.
41:45
And we absolutely have to do better.
41:46
But this, this dementia crisis is something we have to respond
41:49
to. Otherwise, we're going to be,
41:52
we're already in deep trouble, but we're going to be in really
41:53
deep trouble if we don't find an answer to it.
41:56
Well, and I think we're, I know you're going to come in studios
41:59
in a few weeks, Charlie, we're going to deep dive that because
42:01
I think that's the next essential question that I know
42:04
you're, you've been studying and exploring.
42:06
What are we going to do as Western civilization with not
42:09
only, you know, a troubled healthcare system, you know,
42:12
poor healthcare infrastructure at at large and the attitudes
42:15
that plague the healthcare world, but also the declining
42:19
populations, you know, we're having aging demographics.
42:23
And So what happens when there's a ton of older folks and not
42:26
enough younger folks to take care of them?
42:29
And you've been on that one I've seen on social media having
42:33
having your babies. We need to have people have
42:36
more. Doing my part, Charlie, you're.
42:38
Doing it, you're going for it, we need it.
42:40
That's one of the that's one of my main conclusions in the book
42:42
is that, you know, we can talk about improving care homes all
42:45
we want. We could talk about
42:47
reimbursement rates, we can talk about paying workers living
42:49
wage. These are all important.
42:50
But the end of the day, it's the family that we need to
42:52
strengthen to address these foundational questions.
42:57
And those questions about how we strengthen the family are
42:59
existential foundational questions that are absolutely
43:02
humongous on so many levels. But but without that too, I
43:05
mean, that's that's maybe one very important take away here is
43:09
whenever I speak to immigrant families in my area who have
43:13
more intact families than we tend to have in the United
43:16
States here, they're just aghast at the way that we treat our
43:19
elderly, right? They can't believe that we would
43:21
ever think about pushing their elderly loved ones away in the
43:25
way that we do. They welcome them into their
43:27
homes. They rearrange their whole lives
43:28
to care for them. And you know, I'm not trying to
43:31
hate on anybody here who doesn't choose to do that.
43:33
There are all sorts of complicated reasons why we
43:34
don't. But that's a foundational
43:37
question. How do we strengthen the family?
43:38
How do we have the bonds of the family and the extended family,
43:41
not just a nuclear family, the extended family around to
43:45
properly care for our loved ones who otherwise might be in fact
43:48
will be pushed to end their lives via physician assisted
43:51
killing if we don't find that that sort of foundational
43:53
solution? Charlie, thanks so much for
43:56
joining today. I know it's last minute because
43:58
of the news breaking last Friday from the UK.
44:00
How can people find your work? They can go to charleskamosi.com
44:05
or find me on Twitter. X at C Kamosi CCAMOSY Thank you
44:10
Lila Fairman. I'm looking forward to the in
44:12
person conversation in a few weeks.
44:14
Me too. Me too.
44:15
Thanks so much, Charlie. Thanks so much for listening to
44:19
this episode of the Lila Rose Podcast.
44:21
Please share this episode with a friend or a family member to
44:24
spread the truth about assisted suicide and help the show reach
44:27
more people. A huge thank you to our partner.
44:30
EWTNEWTN is the largest religious network reaching
44:35
millions of people with the truth of the faith,
44:38
entertainment and news. Check them out at ewtn.com.