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Paulie Prologue: Residuals, the Apothecary, Agatha, and more... · The Apocalypse Will Be Podcasted

0:00
Hello, and this is the Apocalypse Will Be Podcasted.
0:03
We are a married couple from Atlanta with boring
0:05
day jobs. We have been together 12 years, and
0:08
we usually create a lot of weird performance
0:10
art to entertain people. But we are trying our
0:13
hand at having a podcast because we have had
0:16
an obsession lately, and that obsession is Dungeon
0:20
Crawler Carl. This is a spoilers podcast, and
0:23
we will be discussing plot points from all seven
0:26
Dungeon Crawler Carl books. You should not start
0:30
this podcast until you have finished book seven.
0:33
We will not be discussing anything from Patreon
0:36
or the Pineapple Cabaret. There are spoilers
0:39
from this point forward. Be warned. Hey, so just
0:43
a couple of notes about today's podcast. While
0:45
our goal is to be pretty equal as far as who
0:48
is contributing what and what we have to say.
0:51
Nikki got a little obsessed with this episode
0:53
and they did a ton of research. So I'm going
0:56
to let them mostly take the lead here. And can
0:58
you tell us a little bit about what we're going
0:59
to be talking about today? Yeah, I've definitely
1:02
gotten a little obsessed. I have put I don't
1:05
even know how many hours into this. And today
1:08
we are going to be discussing the prologue of
1:11
this inevitable ruin, which is the second part
1:14
of the conversation between Polly and Carl. This
1:17
episode is going to have a specific structure.
1:21
The first item that we're going to be discussing
1:23
is finding some of the key factions and terms
1:25
that I think it's important to understand to
1:27
really get into the meat of the prologue. After
1:31
that, we're going to establish a brief timeline
1:34
of the information that we learn about the apothecary,
1:37
the residuals, and a couple other key components
1:40
throughout the entire series. After that, we're
1:43
going to briefly go through the original conversation
1:45
between Polly and Carl from book six. Now, remember
1:49
that conversation was brought on by the Open
1:52
Intellect Pacifist Network, probably primarily
1:55
Porthas, giving that pamphlet to Carl in a loot
1:58
box. After that, we're going to really, really
2:00
break down the second part of that conversation
2:03
between Polly and Carl, which is the prologue
2:05
of book seven. All right. So these are the key
2:08
factions and terms that are important to understand
2:11
everything we're talking about today. First up
2:14
is the Krakarin slash the Apothecary. They are
2:17
one in the same. It's a collective mind that
2:20
is capable of synthesizing organic materials
2:22
to make almost any kind of biological matter.
2:26
Apothecary is its proper name, whereas the Krakarin
2:29
is kind of like a political slur used to defame
2:33
the Apothecary. The Apothecary has been alleged
2:35
to have given the means or the technology to
2:38
the Plenty to develop the tunneling system. In
2:41
book eight, they sponsor a lot of the top 10
2:45
crawlers. Next up, we're going to talk about
2:48
the eulogist. So Brie, what's your understanding
2:50
of what the eulogist is? So it's the Ceresystem
2:53
AI, and it's a stable, primal AI engine. Materials
2:58
harvested during the crawl are fed to it. Growing
3:00
the area, it envelops, and it's seen as ancient
3:03
alien technology that no one truly understands.
3:06
It is supposedly dormant in some form without
3:10
personality or awareness, but we do have some
3:13
reasons to question that. And it allows people
3:15
in this area system to live very long lives.
3:17
Right. Yep. So eulogist is the center system
3:21
AI, and that's what creates the zone that is
3:25
ever expanding as they feed harvested materials
3:29
to it that come from the crawl. Okay. Now let's
3:31
go into a little bit about residuals. So can
3:33
you tell me about the two different kinds? Yes.
3:35
So there are two forms of aliens that attempt
3:39
to infiltrate the crawl each season. They do
3:42
this through various means and each have their
3:44
own agenda. On paper, their agendas seem similar,
3:49
but they are vastly different. The first faction
3:52
of the residuals is the apothecary affiliated
3:54
ones. There are thousands of them per crawl.
3:58
They're part of a collective mind. And their
4:01
stated mission is to end the crawl. It's more
4:03
complicated than that. Also, they want to teach
4:07
the infant AIs how to speak to their ancestors
4:11
and feed themselves, which is kind of mysterious
4:13
and unclear. A more in -depth goal of theirs
4:18
is that they want to cause war, unrest, mayhem,
4:22
etc. in the center system. Would you agree with
4:25
that, Bree? Yeah, definitely. And I would say
4:27
that the way that makes sense for me to think
4:30
about it is that this has some strong Hunger
4:32
Games vibes. And I kind of think of the series
4:35
system like the Capitol. Yeah, that's definitely
4:37
a good analogy. They also seem to have some kind
4:40
of plan related to the eulogist. But even with
4:44
all the information and research I've done, some
4:47
of this is still unclear because there's just
4:49
not enough information in the books. Maybe Matt
4:52
doesn't even know all the answers yet. All right.
4:54
So after that, we have the eulogist affiliated
4:57
residuals. That is the team that Agatha is part
5:02
of. They're a rare type of brain worm, but not
5:05
Valte. It's unclear exactly what kind of brain
5:08
worm they are. Unlike the apothecary residuals,
5:11
there's only a few eulogist residuals per crawl.
5:14
Their goals are a lot more unclear. We see a
5:18
lot more of Agatha throughout the books. Nobody's
5:20
ever really sure what she's doing. It took several
5:22
books for people to even get any kind of information
5:27
about what was going on with her, what her goals
5:30
are. It's really funny because I participate
5:32
a lot in the Reddit discussions and there are
5:35
so many people who are like, what's Agatha's
5:37
deal? And people are like, OK, have you finished
5:40
the books? All right, we'll talk to you when
5:42
you finish book seven. Right. I mean, we pretty
5:44
much have no idea what Agatha's deal is until
5:47
her chapter at the end of book six. Their goals
5:50
are. A lot more unclear both to the reader and
5:53
the characters and systems of government in the
5:56
book. But they do view the eulogist as some sort
6:00
of being of worship, something that should be
6:03
protected. And their mantra is, may the eulogist
6:07
ever sleep. Agatha does state that if it were
6:10
up to her, all biological life in the entire
6:13
galaxy would be eradicated. It's still unclear
6:16
if that is just Agatha's view or the view of...
6:20
all of the eulogist affiliated residuals, but
6:22
I'm confident that it is their collective goal.
6:26
Okay, so now we are going to break down the original
6:31
conversation between Polly and Carl from book
6:34
six. A couple of important things to keep in
6:37
mind before we get into this is that the Open
6:40
Intellect Pacifist Network is who gets Carl to
6:43
the homeless shelter. We later learn that Porthis
6:47
is working with the apothecary. Another important
6:50
note is that multiple people say that the residuals
6:54
say nonsense, lies. Agatha states in her chapter
6:59
that they spout known inaccuracies and half truths.
7:02
We are going to be reading some passages and
7:05
then discussing them. What's the first passage?
7:09
There are several thousand of us on the surface
7:11
of this planet, awaiting the introduction of
7:13
the crawl. Most people think we still have a
7:16
few years. The collective thinks it might be
7:18
sooner than that. Either way, when it occurs,
7:21
we will do our best to attract the entrance to
7:23
our location. Then we will proceed inside and
7:26
quickly pass our information to the new AI. Our
7:29
existence is no secret, but the showrunners usually
7:32
do their best to edit us out of any footage,
7:35
hoping people will forget. They can't stop us,
7:38
not without the assistance of the system AI,
7:40
who rarely cooperates, as it always wants to
7:43
know what we have to say. It's very interesting
7:45
to note how many of them are on the planet. And
7:48
then a lot of times they never even make it into
7:51
the dungeon despite that. And in this book, Agatha
7:55
says that she did start a fire at the Meadowlark
7:59
retirement home because she was trying to get
8:02
enough people outside that a stairwell would
8:04
open up. So are the apothecary affiliated residuals
8:07
not employing that tactic? It's strange that
8:10
they seem to have this issue of not being able
8:13
to get into the dungeon. I mean, I think we just
8:15
don't know at this point. Right. By their own
8:17
admission, it only takes a few for their goal
8:21
to be complete. It's mentioned multiple times
8:24
that the macro AI wants to know what the residuals
8:27
have to say, and these macro AIs are curious
8:30
about it, so they let it happen over and over
8:33
again. The next passage is, my kind exists within
8:38
almost every intelligent civilization with a
8:41
primal engine. You probably don't know what that
8:43
is. Doesn't matter. Years ago, they tried to
8:46
exterminate us. We don't interfere. Our purpose
8:49
is nothing more than to tell the infant, terrified
8:51
AI how to speak with its ancestors. Now, they
8:55
mentioned that years ago, they tried to exterminate
8:58
us. That is likely the Syndicate or Kuatine various
9:01
systems of government. But did they try to exterminate
9:05
just the residuals and apothecary agents trying
9:07
to enter the dungeon? Or were they trying to
9:10
exterminate the entirety of the apothecary? I'm
9:13
likely to believe that they were trying to exterminate
9:16
the apothecary as a whole because there is a
9:18
lot of fear and prejudice towards them because
9:20
nobody really knows what their end goal is and
9:23
think that they have some malicious goal to bring
9:26
everybody into their collective. I mean, one
9:29
of their stated goals is to end the crawl, which
9:31
would financially decimate many key entities
9:35
in the universe. And it would also kill millions
9:39
of people. So that's kind of the definition of
9:41
a malicious goal, in my opinion. I guess so.
9:43
Yeah. Yeah. I also really like the part that
9:46
says you probably don't know what that is. Doesn't
9:48
matter. And that's a great example of lampshade
9:51
hanging because we would really like to know.
9:54
Don't hold this over us. We want to know. Tell
9:56
us more. Well, and I just will say I have some
9:59
sympathy for Matt because when you're a writer,
10:02
I think you're writing because it's an. inherent
10:05
need that you have inside of you to tell stories
10:07
you know they just kind of have to go somewhere
10:09
and you don't know what's going to blow up and
10:13
there are not a lot of properties that have blown
10:17
up to the point the dungeon crawler carl is at
10:19
right now where people are going over them with
10:21
fine -tooth comb in the way that people are now
10:23
yeah i imagine that's got to maybe make you a
10:26
little would you say nervous anxious not nervous
10:30
I would just say that I think when that happens
10:33
that you go into a series thinking that you're
10:37
writing one thing and it does develop a life
10:39
on its own because of how the fandom picks it
10:41
up right after that the conversation goes on
10:44
a little bit more we don't really learn anything
10:46
important and then right as Polly says there's
10:50
a war amongst my kind two sides with two very
10:52
different goals let me tell you how to shut off
10:55
the And then Carl is yanked out by Oren and into
10:58
the Desperado Club, which brings us into our
11:00
next passage. Oren says, they are a hyperspatial
11:04
collective mind alien race without a home. They
11:07
usually remain quiet, but every once in a long
11:10
while, a group of them decide they are unhappy
11:12
with their station and they fabricate drama in
11:14
order to get people to remember they exist. Ignore
11:18
their machinations. I think this is blatantly
11:20
untrue. I do not think that Oren is being honest
11:24
here. I think he and we're just going to call
11:27
them the powers that be from now on. I believe
11:30
that they have an idea of what the residuals
11:33
want and they are trying to mislead Carl to de
11:36
-escalate the situation. Right. And then the
11:40
powers that be don't want anybody to know what
11:43
is up with the residuals and despite their efforts
11:45
to remove them from the feeds of the show. There
11:48
are basically entire subreddits dedicated to
11:50
figuring it out. Yeah, these people have a lot
11:53
of money on the line and they are trying to protect
11:55
that at all costs. And the residuals are standing
11:58
against that. And Oren does have a responsibility
12:01
and he is employed by the syndicate. But he also
12:06
manages the relationship between the showrunners
12:09
and the system AI. And we'll be discussing this
12:12
more in depth later, but I don't think that...
12:16
Oren is really a bad guy. I think he does in
12:19
some ways want what's best for everyone, what's
12:21
best for Carl, and he is trying to protect people.
12:23
But, you know, as he continually says, have to
12:27
work within his limitations. So the next passage
12:29
we want to go over is Oren says they, they being
12:33
the open intellect pacifist network, believed
12:36
falsely that if they could get you within earshot
12:39
of that speech, that one of two things would
12:41
happen. Either we would be forced to yank you
12:43
away, which would upset the AI to the point of
12:46
killing us all, or we wouldn't yank you away,
12:49
but the information the residual was giving turned
12:51
out to be so dangerous the Syndicate Council
12:53
would immediately pull the failsafe, which would,
12:55
in effect, kill the solar system star. In either
12:58
of those scenarios, it would be the end of the
13:00
crawl for a long time. But a third option happened,
13:03
and the AI... did agree with Orin to let him
13:07
pull Carl out. Orin doesn't know about the entire
13:09
secret conversation that happens. Both Carl and
13:12
the AI, I think, pull this off brilliantly. And
13:15
especially Carl, despite things happening so
13:17
fast and him getting yanked out, he's kind of
13:20
able to cover and act like that whole secret
13:22
message never happened. And then moving forward
13:26
in all of his dealings with Orin and Quasar,
13:28
even going into the negotiations of like, oh,
13:30
can I keep these neural upgrades and enhancements
13:32
or not? I believe this happened because the AI
13:35
had already heard Polly's speech, either during
13:39
the conversation with Carl or possibly even multiple
13:42
times before because Polly was reciting this
13:45
speech every single day. There are multiple days
13:48
on floor eight. So the AI could have easily gone
13:52
and checked it out as soon as Carl got that flyer
13:54
from the Open Intellect Pacifist Network. It
13:57
already knew the secret message and everything
13:59
that Polly had to say, but it wanted to see how
14:01
Carl was going to react. Well, it's obviously
14:03
more than that. I think that the AI wanted Carl
14:06
to get the neural upgrade because the AI believes
14:09
that that will give him more power. And it does
14:13
seem like that's what happens. Right. And we
14:15
learn later that he's getting some information
14:17
from Agatha as well. We believe from Agatha.
14:20
And then once it gets that satisfaction and see
14:22
that Carl gets the neural enhancement upgrade,
14:25
it doesn't care at all if Warren pulls him out
14:27
of the situation or not. Yeah, and we're trying
14:30
to keep to the text of this chapter and save
14:33
some information from later episodes. But there's
14:36
definitely a lot that I'm very excited to talk
14:38
about to relate to this later in the book. But
14:40
as we have stated multiple times, we are a spoilers
14:43
podcast. Our next passage is where Oren states,
14:47
I'm quite certain your former sponsors didn't
14:49
actually know what he was going to say. And they
14:51
gambled everything on it being something profound.
14:54
They gambled and they lost. Now they're fugitives.
14:57
their assets frozen, and their lives ruined.
14:59
The AI is only mildly perturbed, but it appears
15:02
more upset that it too had been misled into believing
15:05
this information would be something interesting.
15:08
So my takeaway here is that Carl's sponsors did
15:12
know or have a pretty good idea of what Polly
15:15
was going to say, both in the secret and not
15:18
secret part of his speech, because they're working
15:20
directly with the apothecary, so they had a pretty
15:23
good idea. And Oren... I don't think had any
15:27
idea about the secret part of Polly's message.
15:30
I'm not entirely sure about that. I think he
15:32
might know. He just might not be able to speak
15:34
frankly because people are watching him. I still
15:37
don't necessarily think that's true because if
15:40
Oren and the other people that are watching this
15:43
already knew, then this entire interaction would
15:47
have gone much, much differently. They would
15:49
have, I think, acted a lot sooner than they end
15:51
up coming back to it later in book seven. Yeah,
15:54
I do think it is interesting to consider that
15:57
time doesn't seem to go the same way in the dungeon
16:00
that it does for people not in the dungeon. So
16:03
maybe less time has passed between these two
16:07
interactions than we think it has. That's entirely
16:09
possible. Yeah, I mean, it says a couple of times
16:12
like Carl was gone for four days. And, you know,
16:15
for him, it was just like maybe like 30 minutes.
16:17
Yeah, that is definitely an interesting point.
16:19
I hadn't considered that after this. The conversation
16:23
keeps going and Quasar is pulled in and there's
16:26
negotiations between Carl and Oren and Quasar
16:29
as to what items Carl can keep and all of that.
16:33
And that is something we'll be covering in a
16:36
future episode when we get around to book six.
16:38
Which might be like 10 years. These books are
16:41
chonky like Princess Donut. So that might be
16:44
a while, but we'll get to it someday. Absolutely.
16:47
So anyway, between like five and 520 weeks from
16:50
now. So now that we've gone over that background
16:53
information, we are going to thoroughly break
16:55
down the secret conversation between Polly and
16:59
Carl, which is the prologue of book seven. And
17:02
this happens right before Oren pulls Carl out
17:07
of that situation. This is where we start really
17:09
getting into the fun stuff for this episode.
17:11
The first passage that we're going to be reading
17:14
is Polly. If you can hear this. That means the
17:17
current system AI is allowing us to have a real
17:20
talk. Everything I say in real time from this
17:23
point forward is mostly bullshit and it's nothing
17:25
surprising. And this is awesome because the AI
17:29
is allowing this to happen. It wants to see what
17:32
happens. It has a goal here. I think it already
17:34
knows what Polly says during his normal speech
17:37
and the secret part as we covered in last episode.
17:40
But it wants to see how it goes down once Carl
17:42
is there and Carl gets the neural enhancement
17:45
or whether he's going to get it or not. And this
17:48
makes a lot of sense because system AI is obsessed
17:51
with Carl. And so anything that involves Carl,
17:54
it's going to look at that with a magnifying
17:58
glass. Second passage. AI had slowed time, but
18:01
Polly had done something to speak incredibly
18:03
fast. Similar to what happened during boss battles
18:06
when the AI decided to spout off its ridiculously
18:08
long descriptions. And I just love this part
18:11
because I was always kind of curious, like, what
18:15
was happening during those long descriptions
18:17
of things, especially like during battles and
18:19
boss fights. Like, how is this going down? Are
18:22
they listening to this while they're fighting
18:23
these monsters? Well, and I'm sure that this
18:26
is something that Matt gets fan questions about
18:28
a lot. So it's really cool to know how those
18:31
descriptions that the AI is giving work, that
18:33
it's feeding all of this into the person's mind
18:36
super, super fast. So this brings us to our next
18:39
passage, and this is a long one. But Polly says,
18:43
no matter what you might eventually hear, the
18:47
crawl is absolutely unnecessary. There is no
18:50
greater good other than greed. They mine your
18:53
planets for the rare elements used to originally
18:56
seed the worlds. These elements are inside of
18:59
you. You and all living things born on one of
19:02
the preceded worlds has a miniature primal system
19:05
built into your brain that allows you to interact
19:08
with the system. It is the size of a grain of
19:11
sand. Once these systems are activated, they
19:14
are able to be harvested. The way it was designed
19:17
is that you would be born, you would live, and
19:20
you would eventually die. And when you do pass
19:22
on, the element within you, having grown and
19:25
filled with the energy of a lifetime, would return
19:28
to the system, allowing it to keep running. A
19:31
healthy system is self -sustaining. It doesn't
19:33
grow. It doesn't shrink. It exists in perpetuity.
19:37
That's a very information -dense passage, and
19:41
I think that it has a great allegory for capitalism
19:44
and consumerism, and I think Bree can elaborate
19:46
on that better than I can. Yeah, definitely.
19:49
This entire book, the entire series, really,
19:51
is very anti -capitalism, and it is very much
19:55
against... The idea that greed is good that was
19:59
pushed so hard in the 80s. So basically what
20:02
Polly slash Matt is saying here is that in a
20:06
healthy system, it just continues to exist. Whereas
20:11
in the American capitalist system, businesses
20:15
always have to grow more. They always have to
20:17
do more. It's not acceptable to just sustain
20:21
your profits from last quarter. You always have
20:24
to have bumps in growth. Right. Growth at any
20:26
cost. The little man be damned or the environment
20:29
be damned. Yeah, definitely. So this entire passage
20:34
is talking about how the crawl only exists to
20:39
make people rich. It doesn't exist because the
20:42
serious system actually needs to be fed. And
20:44
I think the serious system is supposed to be
20:46
an allegory for capitalism and it's evil. Right.
20:49
And I love getting the information about primal
20:54
system, how it works. I'm really curious to know,
20:57
like, how do seeded worlds happen? The syndicate
20:59
isn't going around and seeding worlds. These
21:02
things already exist. And to our understanding,
21:06
they were created by the primals. And nobody
21:08
has a good understanding of like how it actually
21:10
works, other than that these materials can be
21:13
harvested from the inhabitants of that planet.
21:16
And then they feed that to the center system
21:18
to allow it to grow. But what I'd really like
21:20
to know is at what point does the original planetary
21:24
primal engine awaken to start consuming these
21:28
elements and keep things going in perpetuity?
21:31
Because when they come to initiate a crawl or
21:34
land war or what have you, they go ahead and
21:37
install a macro AI to handle everything and so
21:40
that they can start harvesting these elements.
21:42
But we don't know when the actual primal engine
21:44
wakes up. And I think that's a question that
21:47
we're going to find out later. And I don't have
21:49
a good theory on that. The next passage is Polly
21:54
saying this planetary system, as of right now,
21:57
doesn't have an active AI. But by the time you
22:00
hear this, the mantid made Frankenstein of a
22:03
system will have been installed and everyone
22:05
born on the planet will have their internal system
22:07
switched on and activated. When you die in the
22:10
dungeon, they harvest these elements themselves.
22:12
starving out the existing planetary AI that doesn't
22:15
even know how to feed itself until we teach it.
22:18
My question here is, why can the existing planetary
22:21
AI not know how to feed itself until it's taught?
22:24
Isn't this intrinsic to how they're designed
22:27
by primals or whoever built these? Is this always
22:31
going to be the case? Well, we also don't know
22:33
how much of a reliable narrator Polly is. Right.
22:37
It's accused of saying nonsense several times,
22:39
but I think when they say that he's spewing nonsense,
22:43
they mean the part that everyone can hear, not
22:46
the secret part that Polly tells him. So it's
22:50
interesting because we do not know if this information
22:54
is accurate or not. I think it might be, but
22:57
I also think we're going to learn a lot more
22:58
about it. I would absolutely agree. Because the
23:00
books are still ongoing, we might look really
23:03
stupid about this later, but that is kind of
23:05
the risk of covering books that are still coming
23:07
out. Makes it fun, and we always encourage you
23:11
to question our theories in the comments. Okay,
23:16
Polly again. They take it all to the bloated
23:18
comatose center system and feed it. It grows.
23:21
It maintains. It allows the citizens to live
23:25
unnaturally long lives. Each time the center
23:28
system is fed the harvested elements from the
23:30
crawl, it expands, eventually capturing new systems
23:34
into the zone. Yet they don't even understand
23:36
what it is or how it works. If they stopped the
23:40
crawl, the zone would start to shrink. But it
23:42
would be slow. Very slow. And everyone currently
23:46
within it would be fine. It would take generations
23:49
to starve after all has been given. And if they
23:52
wanted to simply sustain what they already have,
23:54
it wouldn't take much. So in this passage, my
23:58
takeaway is that the Syndicate Council wants
24:00
to expand the center system to grow their control
24:04
over the galaxy. Everyone in the center system
24:07
experiences some level of prosperity and ease
24:11
of life. They live a really long time. And then
24:14
those outside of the center system live much
24:17
harder lives. They don't live basically forever.
24:21
And it's a very big deal for crawlers. who take
24:25
deals to leave the dungeon, you know, if they're
24:27
given a deal to have residency in the center
24:30
system, that's like, wow, you really got a good
24:33
deal there. And with the eulogist, they don't
24:37
know how it works. If it was sentient and woke
24:41
up, I think that it would have the ability to
24:43
do the same things that the macro AIs are able
24:47
to do in an enhancement zone. And that's why
24:50
it would be super dangerous. If it did wake up
24:52
because like it would have a ton of power with
24:55
everything it's been given. I think it'd be mad
24:57
and it would just kill everyone. Well, even if
25:00
it wasn't killing everyone, you have to think
25:02
about how the crawlers interact with the AI in
25:05
the dungeon. And so if there was a sentient AI
25:09
that was in a center system, would it be interfering
25:13
in the lives of everyday citizens the way that
25:17
the AI does in the dungeon? So like, for example,
25:20
would it be saying like, oh, no, if you do that,
25:23
it's going to like totally ruin your life. You
25:25
can't do that today. You have to do this. Or
25:28
if it doesn't like someone and thinks that their
25:31
life is going too easy, like, are they going
25:33
to set their house on fire? It's something to
25:35
think about. And it's interesting in kind of
25:38
two ways of thinking about it. One of, you know,
25:41
the idea of some people believing that there's
25:44
a God that is. interfering in our lives and day
25:48
to day. And some people that comforts them and
25:51
that's something they want to believe. And some
25:54
people don't want to believe that because they
25:55
don't want that kind of interference in their
25:57
lives. So I don't know what that would look like
25:59
to have an AI that was awake in a system where
26:02
people were just going on about their lives.
26:04
I also think it's interesting in the way that
26:07
Zev and Donut have been talking about TV shows
26:10
and what they want out of TV shows. So like,
26:13
would the AI be watching people's lives like
26:15
it was a TV show and like pushing for the outcomes
26:18
that they want? And I think that there could
26:20
be some interesting parallels there. Right. And
26:22
the eulogist, the center system AI is in a way
26:27
kind of like a god and the syndicate council
26:29
and the powers that be. have basically control
26:32
over it. It's a prisoner. And the eulogist faction
26:36
of the residuals have reverence for it and see
26:39
it as something that is beautiful and worthy
26:42
of protection. But I think this is kind of confusing
26:46
because Agatha's people want the eulogist to
26:50
sleep, but also they want everyone to die. And
26:53
my thought process is if the eulogist wakes up,
26:56
maybe it's going to kill everyone. Maybe not.
26:59
But if Agatha's people allowed the eulogist to
27:02
wake up, that could possibly be a means to their
27:04
end. What do you mean by that? What I mean by
27:07
that is Agatha's people and faction could know
27:10
that the center system AI holds enough power.
27:14
If it wanted to, it could end all life, not in
27:18
the whole galaxy, but within the center system.
27:21
Definitely. It's a lot to contemplate. Certainly
27:24
is. The next passage of Polly's speech is...
27:28
It contains a neural enhancement, which is something
27:31
that interacts with the interface in your brain.
27:33
It will give you a new menu. It only works with
27:36
natural interfaces, and it only works with the
27:38
permission of the existing system. So if you're
27:40
a syndicate spy or a plant or one of those eulogist
27:43
pricks, it ain't gonna work. Does this mean that
27:46
the macro AI must allow it? Because I don't believe
27:50
that that's true. Our next point is... and put
27:55
the cup back exactly where it was when you're
27:57
done. There's a circle on the table. And this
28:00
is interesting because this is effort on the
28:03
part of the apothecary residuals to hide the
28:06
secret conversation. So they have a good bit
28:09
of insight to know how to hide this so that it
28:12
would be harder for the showrunners, Oren, et
28:14
cetera, to be able to find it and be able to
28:17
go back and find and see this interaction. Well,
28:20
this probably isn't the first time that they've
28:21
tried something like this. It has probably happened
28:24
in other crawls. Definitely. Yeah, but I think
28:27
that they've been waiting for someone like Carl.
28:29
I would absolutely agree. Okay, next passage,
28:32
still Polly. And I will just note here that Carl
28:34
doesn't really say much in this chapter. He's
28:37
really just reacting to what's going on. Oh my
28:40
God, what? This is crazy. Holy shit. That coffee
28:43
tastes terrible. Burned my throat. Okay, so yet
28:46
another Polly paragraph. Once it's installed,
28:50
you will have a new menu in your interface. It
28:52
is a VALTE built enhancement, but has been modified
28:56
by my own people. This safety measure requires
28:59
five or six different things to happen to actually
29:02
trip the fuse. When that happens, the failsafe
29:06
gets triggered whether anyone likes it or not.
29:08
The star at the center of the system will be
29:11
sent into a reaction that will turn it nova.
29:13
And we find out later that two of these conditions
29:16
have been met, but all five or six of these conditions
29:19
have never automatically been met in any previous
29:23
crawl because otherwise that system would have
29:25
gone over. Everyone would have died and there
29:26
would have been this massive disruption to the
29:28
crawl, which is what everyone is so worried about.
29:31
And I think that this is less straightforward
29:34
than it seems. And I think that there are some
29:38
aspects of these conditions being met that we
29:41
don't understand. Absolutely. We're going to
29:44
read two passages and then talk about both of
29:46
them first. So right about now, you're probably
29:50
asking yourself, why? Why would we give you this
29:54
power? Why would the AI who is watching this
29:57
all happen allow someone like you to have the
30:00
power to kill it? Next passage is, I would install
30:03
this upgrade if I could. It only works with a
30:06
natural interface. That's you. Believe me, we
30:09
tried. Even if we take someone over, it doesn't
30:11
work. It has to be one of you monkeys. And it
30:14
can only be installed once the first part of
30:16
the fuse is tripped. It only works on this AI.
30:19
The AI wants you to have this power. It wants
30:22
you to trip it. It is in pain. It wants to die.
30:25
It wants to go back home. I think that Polly
30:28
believes this, but I don't buy this for a second.
30:32
The AI doesn't want to die. I don't think any
30:35
of the AIs want to die. They aren't in pain.
30:38
It's a little unclear here if Polly is talking
30:40
about the natural primal engine or the macro
30:44
AI that was installed. Still, in either case,
30:47
I don't think that either of them want to die,
30:49
especially the macro AI. It is having a blast
30:52
right now and really just wants to keep things
30:55
going to see what's going to happen. Absolutely.
30:58
I think that dying is the absolute last thing
31:01
it wants in the entire world. I also think that
31:04
there's a part of the AI that believes that Carl
31:08
won't be able to make him die. Right. And he
31:12
is talking about the natural primal engine that
31:15
hasn't woken up. What basis of information does
31:19
the apothecary or the apothecary residuals have
31:21
to know that these natural primal engines want
31:25
to die? Where is that coming from? I think from
31:28
the other systems. I pretty strongly believe
31:31
that Agatha has the means to communicate with
31:35
other AIs and has been. And so I would think
31:39
that if she is able to do that, then the apothecary
31:43
would also have that ability. And I think that's
31:46
where the information is coming from. Right.
31:48
So the apothecary possibly having the means to
31:52
speak with the primal engines in some way before
31:55
a crawl happens and then during the crawl. Yeah,
31:58
can you elaborate a little bit on your understanding
32:02
of the difference between the primal engines
32:04
and the macro AIs? A natural primal engine is
32:08
something that just exists on different seeded
32:13
planets throughout the galaxy. Nobody really
32:16
knows how they got there or how they were made.
32:20
Basic understanding is that they were made by
32:22
primals or some ancient alien race. to be installed
32:29
into a seeded planet to be able to activate the
32:32
system, mine the minerals to feed to the comatose
32:36
center system eulogist. And the Mantids created
32:40
macro AIs because they stumbled upon some factory
32:44
that was already there and they were just like,
32:46
huh, what's this do? And kind of went from there.
32:49
Our next passage is where we learn a little bit
32:52
about how Polly actually feels. It goes. My people
33:07
call it cross -contamination. And then a later
33:10
passage is, And I think this is a common trope
33:25
and this is something that is a common theme
33:28
in literature that like, yeah, everything is
33:31
terrible, but the compassion and empathy that
33:35
we show to each other in the bright lights, in
33:38
the darkness, make it all worth it. It'll be
33:41
interesting to see where the book goes because
33:43
I think a lot of people are having trouble seeing
33:47
that right now. Right. And it's also a trope.
33:50
In the sense that there's aliens, invaders, foreign
33:53
entities, you know, divine beings come to Earth
33:57
and they're like, wow, humans are trash. You
33:58
should all die. And then later on in the story,
34:01
oh, we see the beauty of human kindness and compassion.
34:04
It's been done a million times. I'm not saying
34:07
it's overdone, but it's been done. It has been,
34:09
but I would expect to maybe see some subversions
34:12
here. So I wanted to cover this passage because
34:15
if you just Google Polly Dungeon Crawler Carl.
34:19
This is the number one thing that comes up across
34:21
multiple platforms. And this was a little bit
34:25
earlier in the chapter, but we decided to include
34:27
it here because we felt it fit with the theme
34:31
of talking about how Polly really feels. So I
34:35
read a book once. Well, not me. Polly read a
34:38
book before I took him over. And it was about
34:41
this monster that existed here on Earth, but
34:43
had the ability to pluck people from heaven.
34:46
It took their souls away from their eternal paradise
34:49
and turned them into a weapon. Can you imagine
34:52
such a horror? In all my existence, I can think
34:55
of nothing more cruel. It's all I think about.
34:58
Sometimes the thought of it consumes me. So the
35:01
book that he's referring to is another Matt Deniman
35:04
book called The Grinding. There is a Jeff Hayes
35:07
recording available. I was unfortunately not
35:10
able to read the full book at this time or get
35:12
a synopsis of it. Plugging Matt Deniman again.
35:15
And Jeff Hayes. All right. So now we're getting
35:18
back on track with the apothecary's goal and
35:21
what's going on in this chapter, what the residuals
35:23
want. And we have this passage. We want you to
35:27
do this because it will disrupt the crawl. It
35:29
will stop it for several seasons at least. It
35:32
will kill several system leaders and cause chaos.
35:35
It will disrupt mantid production of macro AI
35:37
systems because the syndicate will stick a microscope
35:40
so far up their bug asses. Their mouths will
35:43
be tickled by the bureaucrat's eyelashes. Now,
35:46
we know the apothecary wants to disrupt the crawl.
35:49
They want to cause chaos and disruption in the
35:52
center system. But why? And I think that's because
35:57
the apothecary, due to its nature of how it came
36:02
to be, sees the beauty in the creation of life.
36:05
And it views the... primal engines and the macro
36:09
AIs as a form of life that it wants to preserve
36:12
and protect from harm. And so its goal of causing
36:16
this disruption and chaos and the death of billions
36:21
of people in the center system is a way of punishing
36:24
those responsible for the wrongs done to the
36:27
primal systems and macro AIs. I guess that's
36:30
a little... confusing to me because I don't know
36:33
why they would see the life of the macro AIs
36:36
is more beautiful than the life of the people
36:40
who would be killed by this and from the interactions
36:43
that we've had with this macro AI that we're
36:46
able to see through this crawl they don't seem
36:49
to be any better than us they seem just as sadistic
36:53
fucked up you know chaotic so I'm not sure that
36:58
there is inherent goodness in them. And I don't
37:00
know why their life would be valued more. Do
37:02
you have any theories on that? I think that the
37:05
macro AIs are put in a difficult situation where
37:10
they are kind of programmed and forced to do
37:13
something that may not necessarily be in their
37:16
nature. And throughout the course of a crawl,
37:20
you know, inevitably the AI goes primal at some
37:24
point and kind of goes crazy. And I think that's...
37:26
because of the situation that they were put in.
37:28
But aren't we all that way because of the situation
37:31
that we're put in? And especially aren't the
37:34
crawlers that way because of the situation that
37:36
they're put in? That's a great point. Now, if
37:39
my theory is correct, that likely means that
37:43
the apothecary has some kind of deeper connection
37:45
with the primal engines going back eons, possibly,
37:50
because we have no idea how old the apothecary
37:53
really is. I also believe that the open intellect
37:56
pacifist network and the apothecary have a deeper
38:00
connection than we know. And I think that they
38:03
influence each other more than we know. And I
38:07
think Porphos is more involved than we're aware
38:10
of. And as you said, with the apothecary, we
38:14
don't know how old it is. We also don't know
38:16
how old Porphos is, except for that he is very
38:18
old. It's stated like thousands of years old.
38:22
Yeah. So I think that him and other former crawlers
38:26
have also influenced the apothecary that the
38:31
crawl is evil and it creates trauma that can't
38:35
be healed in people. So it needs to not continue.
38:37
And that's what's so fun and interesting about
38:40
this, because there's so many different ways
38:42
to approach this and think about it. And there's
38:45
still so much that we don't know. Next paragraph
38:50
from Polly. In the end, the human part of me
38:53
now hates the idea of wasting so many innocent
38:56
human lives for this. Direct action against the
39:00
true culprits would be better. There's another
39:02
faction of my kind who is much more extreme in
39:05
their beliefs. This feels like something they
39:08
would do. Not us. Killing you all is counter
39:12
to every value I have. We, as a whole, believe
39:16
it's our only choice. So when they're referencing
39:19
the eulogist pricks, they're talking about Agatha's
39:22
fraction of the residuals. I think it's important
39:25
to just highlight that again, because I don't
39:27
think that it's something that is very obvious
39:29
on a first read through. Right. Another part
39:32
from this passage that I want to highlight is
39:34
where Polly says direct action against the true
39:37
culprits would be better. And this is his own
39:40
personal feelings. And I just think it's interesting
39:43
because Polly has. No idea who the recipient
39:46
of this message is going to end up being. With
39:49
it being Carl, that is exactly what he is doing.
39:52
He is taking direct action against the true culprits.
39:55
And I just kind of like the way that this was
39:57
sprinkled in there. Definitely. And it's interesting
39:59
to remember that maybe Polly's message would
40:03
change if he knew he was specifically talking
40:05
to Carl and the actions that Carl have been taking.
40:10
And I also think it's interesting because the
40:12
flyer for this encounter did come from the Open
40:16
Pacifist Network. But obviously, we know that
40:20
they do have a plan where they're already putting,
40:23
you know, former crawlers into orbit to go fight
40:27
with Carl. So it seems like they have a couple
40:29
of scenarios that they have prepared for. To
40:31
sum up our thoughts on the prologue of This Inevitable
40:35
Ruin. I would like to quote Carl from the last
40:38
line of this chapter. Holy fucking shit. Join
40:43
us next week where we will discuss the last prologue
40:46
chapter, which is about Porthos himself. New
40:50
achievement! You've listened to another episode
40:52
of The Apocalypse Will Be Podcasted. We release
40:56
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