Latest / I Used To Be Crap At Sales / The Power of Sales Coaching and Self Development | EP06 | Jack Hankey

Transcript

The Power of Sales Coaching and Self Development | EP06 | Jack Hankey · I Used To Be Crap At Sales

0:00
mark ackers: How many years do you think you'd been selling?
0:02
Until you had that realize that realization that you're crap
0:05
probably talked to you about that moment, then you'd had a
0:08
few roles, including head of sales? Yeah. So when I went to
0:11
business development job, I sat down with the guys called Paddy.
0:14
I sat there for two weeks. And I was like, wow, that's, that's a
0:17
coach. That's a leader. And wow, I'm really having proper sales.
0:21
I didn't realize that I've just been winging it. And then I look
0:23
back on the whole crowd. Wow, how did I get to I got to do it
0:27
that way. When you look back now, before Paddy, what would
0:30
you score yourself? I would not hire me in a heartbeat. No, I
0:33
wouldn't have hired me why?
0:37
Jack Hankey: I was days, I was like, when the call was getting
0:40
higher and you're not able to hit it. I couldn't work out a
0:43
way to hit it. And then when I took this job, I was convinced
0:47
the brand new managing director made a mistake. Posture
0:49
syndrome. Yeah, they more so because I just had the moment of
0:52
losing the job not being good enough. They're gonna find me
0:55
out again. I had that mindset as I'm gonna get found out again,
0:58
impostor syndrome. It actually is such a good thing sometimes.
1:02
How can you get over that?
1:04
mark ackers: You've almost said like, I wouldn't be where I was
1:07
today. Yes. If it wasn't for my coach. Yeah. How so? You've
1:10
obviously met hundreds if not 1000s of salespeople. Yeah. Most
1:13
don't have a coach. What do you think about that?
1:16
Jack Hankey: Years and years ago, I would be like, Why? No,
1:19
no, why not? Module One.
1:26
mark ackers: Welcome to another episode of The I used to be crap
1:29
at sales podcast. I'm your host, Mark Ackers. And today I'm
1:32
joined by someone who's responsible for coaching and
1:35
developing the future sales talent. Leyton their head of
1:38
sales development UK. It's Jack Hankey. Jack, welcome. Great to
1:42
have you on the podcast. How you doing? Very good. Thank you.
1:45
Thanks for having me. Looking forward to it. Absolute
1:48
pleasure. Let's just kick it off with a yes, no question. Yep.
1:52
Did you used to be crap at sales? Yes. Let's get into it.
1:55
Yeah. So why don't we first of all right. Tell us a little bit
1:59
about your background. bring it to life for us. I know you've
2:02
actually got a sporting background, haven't you? Yes.
2:05
Yeah. Why don't we start there? Because I think it links very
2:08
nicely to what you do now in Leyton. But just tell us a
2:12
little bit about your background and how you got to where you are
2:15
today. Yeah, so go right back to the start. I used to play tennis
2:19
when I was quite a bit younger, still do play now.
2:32
Jack Hankey: decided I wanted to go back to school weirdly
2:34
enough, not many kids would say that. And then got coached by
2:37
some really good coaches good was around professional players.
2:40
It was brilliant exposure, but just missed school. And then
2:42
yeah, play tennis till I was about 16
2:47
and then decided to go into coaching probably about 70 and
2:49
80. Just because it was a great Saturday job to have paid better
2:53
than pot washing, spent some time working with various
2:56
different cultures all over the country, and then became a head
2:59
coach at a tennis club in Wimbledon. The epicenter of
3:02
tennis when they say was about 20 to 23. Coach player, a player
3:08
to junior woman quarterfinals I felt like doing really good and
3:13
just didn't enjoy it so much felt like I'd kind of hit my
3:17
ceiling of what I wanted to achieve in the sport. So then I
3:20
moved into sales. Got a job? Can we call Mannheim carwash is very
3:26
old school company. But it's the business my dad always worked
3:29
in. So he will say didn't help me get a job, but he definitely
3:31
did. And then yeah, just progressed through my career
3:34
working at sports clothing company that moved into like
3:39
health and safety software, and then I'm here at later now.
3:43
mark ackers: I mean, just playing that back. You got taken
3:46
our schools play tennis. Yes. How old? Are you then?
3:49
Jack Hankey: 11? Yeah, 11 year seven.
3:52
mark ackers: I don't even know that sort of thing happened.
3:54
Yeah,
3:54
Jack Hankey: doors is a bit different now. They have schools
3:58
within the centers as such, so like you with your peers, I was
4:02
on my own. I was the youngest person there. There was three or
4:06
four of us at this academies in Bolton. And the others were in
4:10
like year nine year 10. And that's part of the sort of
4:13
school we went to for maths and English. That was deaf schools
4:16
on another site, so I'd even have them around me. And yeah,
4:20
but now it's all I built in that you have the academies where
4:23
everything's in house. So you're in a classroom with your peers,
4:27
and you do your schoolwork that way. Right. So it's a little bit
4:30
of a holdover. Yeah.
4:31
mark ackers: But you must have been, I appreciate you won't say
4:34
it. But also, you must have been exceptional at tennis at 11 to
4:39
be taken out of school. Like just how good were you? Because
4:42
I know tennis has like seedings and ranking systems don't have
4:45
it.
4:47
Jack Hankey: I was actually I think I was like top 10 maybe
4:49
six, seven in the country at that point for your age or Yeah,
4:52
like under twelves. And yeah, I wasn't the best, but I actually
4:59
was about told that and obviously I thought people would
5:01
say I'm sat down now but I'm like six foot five. So the the
5:06
autobio testing on you. And that technically is good, but he's
5:10
gonna get better because he's got to basically come out pretty
5:13
tall
5:14
mark ackers: to test to see how tall you're gonna be. Yeah, they
5:17
Jack Hankey: can do that test about your feet and bail stuff
5:21
over. I don't know that weighs on me when I was a kid sometimes
5:26
mark ackers: must be a diet of tuna and egg lasagna.
5:29
Jack Hankey: Yeah, Daniel. Just tuna, cheese and pastures.
5:33
Legitimately sad all the time. But
5:35
mark ackers: no, yeah, I think that's gone for me. But I saw it
5:37
as soon as I saw you today for the first time in the flesh.
5:39
Yeah, yeah. Yes. I was looking out. Yeah. And so you're in the
5:43
top 10 maybe six or seven. Have you saved age 11 taken out
5:48
playing tennis. I couldn't help kind of come to rely on the
5:51
podcast, but let's dive into it now. So Jason good coaches. Yes.
5:55
Tell me about that.
5:56
Jack Hankey: Yeah. So I had three really top coaches that
6:00
really resonated with me. One was a guy called Rohan. He was
6:04
like my first coach. I cried when he moved to Turkey and I
6:08
cried. Because he spent a lot of time with me, it gave me the
6:12
belief. He was the set. He was at the point where I was
6:15
technically getting to a decent level. I think it was between
6:19
eight and nine. And then his Luckily his mate had just moved
6:25
up into Manchester area and he took over coaching me and he was
6:28
he was great. It's called Brian McFadden. He's down in Dorking
6:31
think now as long Telesco better, but he was a performance
6:34
coach. And he was just so much fun to be around by the year. I
6:40
still like jokes, he would just crack on the toast, but it just
6:42
made you feel so comfortable. And that's it. Like when I was
6:47
getting I was when I was in school. I was good at tennis
6:50
about six in the morning, playing tennis, go into school,
6:53
coming out of school playing tennis, fitness training. has
6:58
these guys understood that? It has to be fun. I saw plenty of
7:01
coaches that didn't make it fun. And that's kind of what I try
7:04
and do now with work and stuff like sales is hard. You know,
7:07
you have to learn how to but let's have fun while we're doing
7:09
it. And then Dave Sandler was, so when I still speak to
7:15
sometimes because he's like a mindset coach as well as a
7:17
tennis coach and traveled all around the world doing that. And
7:21
he was the opposite. He was intense. But yeah, he was using
7:25
his good friends with my dad. And we talked to the guy called
7:29
Liam Brody now who's top 100 in the world. And yeah, he very
7:33
intense. But you worked for him. He made you run through walls.
7:37
mark ackers: Let's move the conversation on a little bit
7:39
then. To sales. Yeah. So no one grows up wanting to be in sales.
7:44
Yeah, hard. Imagine when you're at the tennis courts. You're
7:46
thinking, get me out of here. I can't wait for salaries. Yeah.
7:49
You said you moved into sales quite quickly. Yes. How did that
7:53
happen?
7:56
Jack Hankey: So my father was worth in sales. So I've seen it,
8:00
I've been around all my life. And, you know, I take a lot of
8:04
inspiration from him how hard he works. And I just felt like, as
8:09
a tennis coach, I think I will sell in any way. Because if I'm
8:13
not showing that I'm the best coach or around the club,
8:16
they're just gonna go to another coach. So I had to sell myself
8:19
anyway, as with my strengths and weaknesses as a coach, and, you
8:23
know, sell my USPS and all that. I was naturally doing it without
8:28
knowing I was doing it. So then it just when I looked back at
8:31
what I wanted to do, I kind of felt that the only thing I
8:33
really can do selling, because it didn't have any degree or
8:37
anything. I was kind of like, that was my mindset at the time.
8:40
But then, when I looked back, when I then looked into I was
8:43
actually I've been selling for years, just different products.
8:48
So let's just go and sell something else.
8:51
mark ackers: So there's a few interesting things. You said
8:52
that I agree with you. I think I definitely wanna get into how
8:56
you coach your team today and the links to tennis exchange,
9:00
because I think the links are just unparalleled. But you said
9:03
you saw a harder dad worked? Yes. So talking to as a parent,
9:07
right? I've got my lead. I don't think maybe there's an age thing
9:11
there. But I, they probably have got no idea how hard the parent
9:16
works when they're in sales because they just start making
9:18
calls all day or they're on Skype calls. Like, I feel like,
9:22
yeah, it's hard for it. Like if you did a physical job, you left
9:25
the house really early and you out. Maybe the kid could
9:28
appreciate that. How did you know? Your dad was working
9:32
really hard? Because
9:33
Jack Hankey: back in the day was in teams, I think it was mobile
9:35
cars and cars and I was in the passenger seat, right? Okay. We
9:39
were driving to tennis coaching or toilet and I was just
9:41
listening. And he was like to go go, and then pick the phone up.
9:44
Right? I'd pretend I wasn't there. And then if I had to get
9:46
out the car to slowly shut the door. So it was like that.
9:50
That's our new director. He was constantly on the phone and I
9:53
don't know what I can't tell you what he's talking about. But to
9:55
me that was saying that he's always working. And then at a
9:58
weekend as well. He was always traveling I can't imagine our
10:01
testing it would have been a mom and dad's relationship when we
10:03
were doing that. Because he was traveling all over the country.
10:06
He lived down south, I remember it, he was that we were actually
10:09
talking about it every day. He lived down south for three days
10:11
a week sometimes, because that's where the head office was. And
10:14
he took a step back in his career to get into this company.
10:17
And so yeah, and I told him that I appreciate it much more now.
10:21
But I also, you know, we had an we had a nice life when we got
10:24
older and stuff as kids and I know he's down to the moment
10:27
that's hard work. Must
10:29
Unknown: have been to be I would play tennis all the time. Yeah,
10:31
I was funded a lot of
10:34
mark ackers: the old stereotype. Okay, so it sounds like they
10:37
even though you say now I can't say what he was talking about.
10:39
You would have been learning just through osmosis, just
10:41
hearing Salesforce, etc. What What kind of sales person do you
10:45
think you'd had was when you look back and analyze them now?
10:50
Jack Hankey: Relationships go, that's what he built his whole
10:53
career on. Like, he's had a really good career, look at it
10:58
as a career that you would dream of having, as you know, if you
11:01
wanted to do that. He argues now that you know, when we talk
11:05
about who's in the family, like the better salesman, I'll say
11:07
whom you'll say me, which is quite nice. But yeah, in
11:10
relationship, guys, he was very, very much making his clients
11:14
feel that if they were to move to another provider, or
11:18
whatever, that they were going, they were going to miss the
11:21
stuff my dad didn't, I say would take them very often would take
11:25
them to concerts. He took people to the world box, when would a
11:28
night or things like that, and you always take the partners
11:30
with him. He was just very much that was his life. Like he would
11:34
wait to die and people made sure to feel million dollars when
11:37
everyone would say I'm
11:39
mark ackers: sorry, did it. So I know. You're telling me everyone
11:42
your dad was in car auction sales. Very different to sales
11:46
you're in today? Yes. So really, it felt like you were looking at
11:51
a need to get a job. He knew what he had done. He had a lot
11:54
of exposure to that way to get into sales. Your first job you
11:59
said that earlier on. Where was your first job again? A company
12:02
called Mannheim. That's it I've lost the notes. So tell me about
12:05
what Mannheim did. Yeah.
12:06
Jack Hankey: So they were a car auction company. Oh, fun.
12:09
Strange. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So they were couch to me. When is it Jr,
12:13
account manager, like, say my dad. He was actually working in
12:16
Australia for the company at a time. And he said he didn't help
12:21
me get it. But yeah. And yeah, so that actually, it felt like I
12:28
was doing my best job. Because I would leave the house Monday
12:32
morning with a suitcase. And I'd come home, probably Thursday
12:35
night, Friday afternoon, because I'd be going to other sites all
12:39
around the country. So I was an account manager for, you know,
12:42
like, it wasn't, you know, like a car company where you sell
12:45
your car or get cash. Right. Can we buy a car from that? Yeah, it
12:48
was one of those. Not that one. It was another one of them.
12:51
Right? Battle crafter, I basically did all the on site
12:54
for him. So
12:55
mark ackers: you were there? I've got one that I lost it. But
12:58
you were there for just over a year. One year? Yes. How come
13:01
you didn't stay much longer?
13:03
Jack Hankey: I didn't like being my dad. So I guess. So there was
13:07
maybe about six or seven months in. I was at a site in
13:11
Colchester. That's where the MD was based. And the MD comes to
13:16
me and goes to want to get lunch. My boss had never spoken.
13:21
As I knew then he said to me in that lunch, what's it like to be
13:24
a hankie in this industry? As I've done? What? Just wanted to
13:28
carve my own? My own story at that point, I kind of realized
13:34
Yeah, it's all good being Datsun but you're always going to be
13:38
mark, so I don't know. Yeah, I wanted to be Jack. Yeah. So I
13:46
can you I couldn't be in that industry.
13:48
mark ackers: So then you move to how would you pronounce his cut
13:51
curry sport? Sports?
13:52
Jack Hankey: Yeah, I loved that job. That was brilliant. That
13:54
was my two passions, well, passe passions. Now it's a passion but
13:59
then it probably wasn't sales, two passions coming together,
14:02
selling sports clothing. And they just use it perfect. All I
14:08
would do was talk about sport all day to various different
14:11
schools or sports clubs. You know, I love cricket teams and
14:15
will be teams work on different worlds where I was used to not
14:19
to traditional sports I liked but I got into sport sport.
14:23
mark ackers: And then from there to had a South Simon Jersey when
14:26
you're a senior BDM and now we find you later in life. Leyton
14:30
is a company I'm very familiar with. I feel like it's something
14:33
that probably most people wouldn't be familiar with,
14:37
though. Yeah. Tell us about later and just what what
14:40
problems they solve?
14:41
Jack Hankey: Yeah, so laying it in itself is a tax consultancy
14:47
firm. So we basically help companies access funding from
14:52
for tax relief that the government sets up. Notoriously
14:56
it's kind of hard to understand to do it. Through the guys who
15:01
will then help you deliver, like research and development CCl,
15:06
capital allowances, anything that really will help business
15:09
reduce the tax bill will support them in that. And
15:12
mark ackers: your role today. I appreciate you've grown with me.
15:14
But yeah, you look after the SDR team for the UK and Casablanca.
15:18
Yeah.
15:19
Jack Hankey: So there's a UK, sort of older UK. So I've got
15:22
teams in Glasgow, Manchester, London, and then we have two
15:26
teams in Casablanca. Casablanca is is huge officers like, or
15:30
they support the whole world of layin. So like, we have offices
15:33
all over the
15:34
mark ackers: world. Yeah, yeah. And how many STRS you have sort
15:36
of faded out into?
15:37
Jack Hankey: I think it's about 60. As we sit here today. Wow.
15:39
So that's, I mean, that's a huge SDR team that, yes, including
15:43
managers in that. But yeah, the
15:45
mark ackers: ultimate that you're responsible for. Yeah.
15:47
Okay. So what are you at the start? Did you speak crap? Yes.
15:51
You said, yes. What part of your career sprung to mind when you
15:57
answered that question?
15:58
Jack Hankey: When I went to be a senior business development
16:03
before I joined man, and
16:06
mark ackers: that was the world. And so Okay, so talk to you
16:10
about that moment, then, because I'm guessing at that point, you
16:13
didn't realize you were crap, because you'd had a few roles,
16:15
including head of sales. Yeah,
16:17
Jack Hankey: kind of took a step back and said, I need to go back
16:19
and sell because I was a bit too young. Green behind it, like,
16:24
you know, please speak green. And so when I went to see me at
16:30
that business development job, I sat down with a guy who's called
16:33
Paddy, to this day, like he will never hear this. He's not very,
16:37
you won't listen to podcast. I use very loved reading, but he's
16:40
just not a big on LinkedIn and stuff. I sat there for two
16:45
weeks. And I was like, wow, that's that's a culture that's a
16:48
leader. Wow, I'm really hungry for sales. I didn't realize I've
16:52
just been winging it. And then I look back at my whole career.
16:55
Wow, how did I get to where I got to do it that way. And it
17:01
was poised when I was selling, I was new. I was I was every point
17:05
I just was. Now not not doing not doing a good job here and
17:10
all that. But yeah, with Paddy. And then I went out with him.
17:14
And he would sit, you know, we would go and see someone and he
17:18
would sit there after it wouldn't I gotta say I got the
17:21
sale. He wouldn't talk to you about the sales talk to you
17:23
about point in that I can work on. A it was it was mind
17:29
blowing. But I didn't get to work from very long because
17:32
COVID hit and I was working in public sector. So it's a bit
17:35
sad, really. But I would have been on a farm myself at later.
17:39
So
17:40
mark ackers: do the maths for me, because there's a little
17:42
with this. You were selling as a tennis coach as well. Yeah. How
17:46
many years? It's at least five that I can see from my research.
17:50
But we've got the tennis coach aspect. Yeah. How many years do
17:53
you think you'd been selling? Until you had that realize that
17:55
realization that your crab
17:58
Jack Hankey: probably three or 434 years? It'd be longer now
18:02
and it because of the tennis coach or with a tennis coach,
18:04
you know, gosh, yeah, yes. Yeah. Yeah. So
18:07
mark ackers: close to a decade in sales in some way, shape, or
18:11
form? Yeah. And then you had this moment that I'm crap. Yeah.
18:14
And it sounds like really just come down to the fact you've got
18:17
exposure to someone that was better than you and showed you a
18:21
better way. Yeah, coached. So how did you survive so long?
18:26
Like when you say you are crap, but let's be let's be really
18:28
clear, right? Maybe you're being very when you look back now
18:31
before Paddy, maybe there's a before paddy after paddy talk
18:35
track here. Before patty on a scale of one to 1010 10 being
18:40
elite. One being crap. Yeah. When you look back now before
18:44
Paddy, what would you score yourself?
18:46
Jack Hankey: I would not hire me in a heartbeat. That's right. So
18:48
like probably a three or four. Okay. You wouldn't hire you in a
18:53
heartbeat. No, I wouldn't have hired me as a salesperson.
18:55
mark ackers: So post Paddy. If you to look at you before Paddy.
18:59
Yeah, you wouldn't hire that. Why?
19:05
Jack Hankey: I think I had all the work ethic, which is best
19:08
part about arised sales. But what I was doing was, it was it
19:14
was it was all luck. In my opinion. I was very lucky. And
19:17
then there was days I was like, when the call was getting higher
19:21
and you're not able to hit it. I couldn't work out a way to hit
19:24
it. So I had to like really like when I look back I really needed
19:28
to just take a step. I didn't really try and make yourself
19:31
better is just for doing okay. There's been a bit of a bit of
19:35
ego there.
19:37
mark ackers: So, unless something changed I can just
19:40
imagine you did have a strong work ethic you're playing tennis
19:43
at six o'clock in the morning from 11 o'clock like I do I
19:46
appreciate you might not say you're an elite athlete, but for
19:49
an 11 year old. You probably were I like when i Whenever I've
19:53
had the chance to speak to people that have been like
19:55
Olympians or whatnot. I've moved into sales. Yeah, it's always
19:58
like the mindset I just are staggering really? Yeah. So I
20:02
appreciate probably wasn't working for it. You probably had
20:04
that. Yes. I can appreciate ego as well. Right. You've probably
20:08
had it fed to you since you're a really young age. You're
20:10
exceptional. You gotta do the best. Yeah. Really good. Yeah.
20:15
So you get this Patty moment, before a party, you're now able
20:20
to reflect back and go, I was a three or four when I'm in
20:23
heartbeat. Before party, what do you think you would have scored
20:27
yourself? Like
20:28
Jack Hankey: an eight or an eight? Because I still like, if
20:31
I look at the results, the results were all right. Yeah.
20:34
But actually look at the fundamentals that a job. They
20:36
were very rarely well, before party I would have done yeah,
20:40
from a numbers. But it's just like ego sync something in
20:45
there. But I have people in sales who were their career was
20:50
going up quite an upward trajectory around me like
20:51
friends of mine, I felt like I was kind of stole it a little
20:55
bit at that point. That's probably that's why I took this
20:56
stuff. Well, if I don't ask you to step back, but I went from
21:00
ourselves to then go and being a salesperson again, because that
21:03
was when like, the moment when I met it was before I met buyers,
21:06
I need to learn. I'm not nowhere near where I need to be as a
21:12
person as a salesperson. Um, yeah. So yeah, I think, yeah.
21:21
mark ackers: Just so you said, like, Patti won't listen to
21:22
this. And that's fine. But
21:24
Jack Hankey: you might do like, you know, maybe
21:28
mark ackers: maybe he will, maybe he won't. But either way
21:30
during Paddy, if he heard what you just said, would have
21:33
realized he made you feel that way?
21:36
Jack Hankey: No, no way. He doesn't even realize the impact
21:38
he's had on me, right. To this day, I still think about this
21:42
type of coaching you did for me and how I could implement it.
21:45
But it was worded in such a short amount of time. But he's
21:49
probably the person who's probably had the biggest impact
21:51
on my career. Anyone realize that?
21:53
mark ackers: And one thing I told him
21:57
Jack Hankey: to now, I've never really reached out to these,
21:59
because he's not that type of like, He's not the type of guy
22:02
when he doesn't, he doesn't even you might like it. But my
22:05
relationship with him is only short. He he never really wanted
22:11
to praise whenever he just wasn't that guy. He was an
22:14
opposite of a salesperson. stereotypical salesperson,
22:17
right?
22:18
mark ackers: So we realized we're crap. What do you do to
22:22
turn it round?
22:25
Jack Hankey: So when I when I, when I realized that I was
22:27
struggling, and it wasn't great. It was doubling down on on me
22:32
and getting me better. Everyone who works in sales or is able to
22:39
learn product to sell or skill set of services, you obviously
22:45
have a capability to take in information. So if your part
22:50
your job is in great, why not. And if you and you're able to
22:53
highlight that, or your manager or anything is able to highlight
22:56
it, which I was I was able to highlight it on Paddy, etc. And
23:01
then double down, learn how to work it like let's start work if
23:05
accepted. And then I just tried to learn and learn I would just
23:09
really drive Saturday morning watching sales broadcast on
23:12
YouTube. Just because I enjoyed it. And I wanted to try a new
23:17
skill set. Sunday nights I would watch videos and then I talk to
23:21
people about their after to try to get them to watch them. I was
23:25
a big drop become a bit obsessed.
23:28
mark ackers: And obviously that's That's great to hear that
23:30
you realize 1000s of skill, one that be fine tuned, perfected.
23:34
I'm guessing that still took a long time now to get to the
23:38
levels you're at now. Yeah,
23:40
Jack Hankey: I wouldn't say I'm good at sales now. Still say
23:42
like, you know, you know, I can I'm better. But I'm now complete
23:48
opposite to what I used to be where I'd think I was about now
23:51
I'm like, I probably say I'm not as good as I am. You know,
23:55
there's times where, you know, I'll go into a meeting. I'll
23:59
feel like I'm doing a good job, but not done a great job.
24:02
There's times where I've had too much shadow me in a meeting. And
24:05
I've completely messed it up. But I thought it was a great
24:07
coaching situation like showing a bit of vulnerability was a new
24:10
salesperson. So I was I got the damn purple are those who didn't
24:13
put you know, you can? You can position it. So yeah, it takes a
24:18
long time.
24:19
mark ackers: I bet. What's the lowest point you've had in
24:22
sales? Like when you realize you're crap, it's not going for
24:26
you. You're not hitting your numbers. You talk about like
24:30
mucking up sales. We've all done that. Yeah, but what if I say to
24:34
you, like, what's the lowest point you've had in sales? What
24:36
would you say?
24:40
Jack Hankey: Probably is probably losing my job at St
24:42
work. It was out of our control slightly. But he kept somebody
24:46
else said I cried. I was upset. I was really upset. So what
24:51
happened? Tell me tell me the story. COVID here had to make
24:53
redundancies reviewed everyone's performance. I've only been I've
24:57
only actually worked from probably for six, seven months
24:59
for COVID it. And yeah, I got a phone call, you will not score
25:04
high enough. And guess what we will score people on Sunday to
25:07
be famous from the CEO like he did call everyone, which I
25:11
thought was pretty, pretty good thing thing to do. But yeah, and
25:16
then at that point, I ended up just getting a job driving,
25:19
Amazon did Amazon's delivery and worked for me driving all my
25:23
other logistics company and I was like, I'm just gonna, I just
25:25
need money, I need to work. And that was probably the lowest
25:29
point in my career in sales. He was like, and then I've missed
25:32
out on big deals, but they don't really hurt. That personally
25:35
hurt me a lot.
25:37
mark ackers: And why they personally hurt you. Is it
25:39
because you've been scored? Or because that's I mean, it's not
25:42
nice to lose a job. But yeah, it feels like it was a mask call
25:46
rather than personality. Oh,
25:49
Jack Hankey: yeah. He just called me personally on my
25:50
mobile. Oh, it was. It wasn't terrible on
25:52
mark ackers: but certainly, it wasn't a personal decision to
25:55
get rid of. Yes, it was like a mess. Yeah. So to speak.
25:58
Jack Hankey: Yeah. But it felt personal because of the scoring.
26:02
And it felt I should have more, I could quit my job, I wouldn't
26:08
have had to, you know, as much as I wasn't able to do mostly we
26:11
were scaled back into doing it. Go out selling her time. And I
26:15
hadn't done that enough. And that was the first time
26:18
probably, I've been told you're not good enough at this. But
26:24
that's how I felt anyway,
26:25
mark ackers: what could you have done differently than not what
26:26
was in your control? I
26:29
Jack Hankey: don't know where you're gonna look back. Like, I
26:32
think I didn't really understand the product like well, actually,
26:36
my work ethic probably dipped slightly, I was very focused on
26:39
my development at that point. And I kind of learned lost sight
26:42
of getting out and about it was a time just before like,
26:47
obviously, teams meetings, and you were in the car driving
26:50
everywhere. Car was the office. And I was like, Oh, if I didn't
26:54
have it? If not, I would supply right. I'm gonna develop myself
26:57
today rather than picking up the phone, which is what I used to
26:59
do. knocking on door so you start off with that dullness and
27:02
say, I've got delivery people. And then I say here's the
27:05
delivery. Can I have 10 minutes your time?
27:07
mark ackers: How often do you do that?
27:09
Jack Hankey: I did that quite a lot. I learned that from my
27:10
first job guy called Steve Wallace. He was like, you just
27:13
get it when I was learning training. He was just back she'd
27:16
be full of bonuses I've ever gone prospecting has occurred to
27:19
me. He's like, so knock on some doors. I've got delivery from
27:22
see if they give me 10 minutes to get the bonus even way. Wow.
27:27
mark ackers: I mean, I'm so confident that most people that
27:30
listen to this podcast, would never contemplate doing that.
27:33
Jack Hankey: Yeah, I wouldn't afford it. But he showed me and
27:36
then I started doing it because it worked. It genuinely did
27:39
work. He's gonna turn now for like $3 I mean, people who were
27:43
speaking to their decision makers, but they weren't
27:45
necessarily bombarded with means at a time because again, it was
27:49
a different world.
27:51
mark ackers: So yeah, so let's just be really clear. You just
27:54
pick some businesses that you want to speak to. Yeah, so like
27:56
an industrial estate or something. You'd go and buy low
27:59
doughnuts dollars or cookies. Yeah. So wait, are we talking
28:02
Jack Hankey: Tescos are spending too much money?
28:07
mark ackers: So that's interesting. So like literally
28:09
do you know when you got the pack of the raspberry jam, five
28:12
for a quick college
28:12
Jack Hankey: kind of job? And I say during offseason we'll have
28:14
a coffee kind of thing. Yeah.
28:16
mark ackers: And literally go to reception and say is I've got
28:18
delivery for x. Just five days ago. extra special
28:24
Jack Hankey: show he's busy or they're busy. But okay, just
28:27
delivery. I've got my own terms. Give me a call at nighttime. I
28:29
tend to call you because you've given them donuts, they would
28:31
call you. They would just say no, I'm not interested. But you
28:34
still get a call he was looking at I mean, it was not. It was
28:39
just it was just it was a random thing I learned. I still talk
28:42
about it today. Like obviously talk about that I totally got an
28:45
essay and I was quite tough when I used to go knock on doors with
28:48
boldness guys, come on, like let's go do it.
28:51
mark ackers: So obviously that that that proposition exists
28:54
today it was very different. Yes, there's a few companies out
28:57
there that will allow you to gift prospects Yes. Do you
29:01
dabble with any of that?
29:03
Jack Hankey: We did do so when I have because obviously I've done
29:05
a few different roles that later and I used to manage a BD team
29:09
and I had a guy who used to send tea and biscuits to prospect and
29:13
so if you booked on for a meeting he would send it out
29:18
premier me the mean position to me and as let's have a coffee
29:22
and biscuits together virtually. And he's also said like he came
29:27
up the idea on that and he also sent as previously when you send
29:31
socks personal socks to prospects. Bloody love socks.
29:35
Yeah, he does write about some quirky sharks. Yeah,
29:38
Unknown: I've got parrots on today. Well, you got just a
29:40
standard
29:41
Jack Hankey: black today. Some Sunday.
29:44
mark ackers: So when you're like having this difficult time, yep.
29:48
Right and you straight in it. It feels like it's been a number of
29:50
different examples you could talk about there. But obviously
29:53
mindset is a big thing for you. You talk about mindset as a
29:55
tennis player. Who's where's your mindset when you're really
30:00
struggling in sales and you've been let go or you've lost big
30:03
deals to talk about what happens to your mindset
30:07
Jack Hankey: probably goes up and down a little bit, initially
30:10
pretty floored, like, so what I used to do still would do.
30:17
There's like a crown green balls, place opposite mouse, so
30:19
I just don't watch and just sit in silence. Just trying to get
30:23
my thoughts together. And then I kind of like the then I'll just
30:27
work FET side of me, ticking the diff provide over I'm going to
30:32
be okay, kind of put on a bit of a show. But then in the
30:35
background quietly, just try and develop myself. I think you need
30:38
that moment me go and sit and watch them guys play proudly in
30:41
bowls. That is like, the moment where it's just you're on your
30:46
own I've ever got my dog with me. I'm just on my own silence.
30:50
And you can see these guys are arguing about their match and
30:52
stuff. I say, You know what, you got some bad news there. Except
30:57
it be in your force. But go and do something about it. Now.
31:02
mark ackers: A lot of that is kind of like your recent place.
31:05
Exactly that Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think everyone needs that. Yeah.
31:08
Jack Hankey: Yeah. Sit on the same bench when I do. Yeah, I've
31:11
cried there have been happy to
31:15
mark ackers: see your spot. You've mentioned quite a few
31:18
times, like, Are you quite in touch? Like your cry quite
31:20
easily or not? No,
31:23
Jack Hankey: don't get in touch with my emotions. I would say
31:27
but I wouldn't say I've like a crier. Like the probably two or
31:33
three times I can remember as an adult. really breaking down last
31:39
year I broke down when my granddad died. But I close my
31:41
granddad and we lost him years ago cuz he wasn't very well but
31:48
and then have the nice always been, it's always been me. If
31:52
I've actually shown me I'm not really proud of situations or
31:56
breakups or anything like that. But when it's me, I just feel as
32:01
though it's like a letdown, maybe a letdown thing and all
32:03
that I've let myself down and get annoyed and get a bit upset.
32:07
Have
32:08
mark ackers: you found as you've got older and just naturally
32:10
with age matured? Yeah, in sales, you've had less of those
32:14
moments? Or do you still put that self pressure on yourself?
32:21
Jack Hankey: I have not really had that many moments in the
32:24
sense of where I felt I felt myself down at Leyton,
32:27
definitely not. But I put an immense amount of pressure on
32:30
myself. And I remember my first six months LA and I was waking
32:34
up thinking is this my last day? Why? Just because I thought I
32:38
was gonna sell a patient hallway through that just drove me.
32:42
Though there's nothing late and late, I was able to believe
32:45
that. It was just all me I was like, because I just had the
32:49
moment of losing the job not being good enough. They're gonna
32:53
find me out again. I had that mindset as I'm gonna get found
32:56
out again. Imposter syndrome. Yeah, very much. So.
33:01
Unknown: How'd you get over that?
33:03
Jack Hankey: passing information. And I still have
33:06
it. I remember when I took this job. I was convinced the brand
33:11
new managing director made a mistake. And that's how I met
33:15
drove me though, that I need to prove him that Yes. I have it. I
33:22
think imposter syndrome, it actually is such a good thing
33:25
sometimes have. You can't let it you can't drown in it. But if
33:30
you constantly like Oh, I do not necessarily do I belong here.
33:34
But should I be doing this? Should I be here? Can I do this?
33:37
That's a real good driver. Because if you have that in
33:40
there, can I do this? Yeah. Can I need to try and do I want to I
33:43
want to prove myself wrong care. is I don't think there's
33:48
anything better than that.
33:49
mark ackers: It's always like, harnessing a weakness. Yeah. It
33:54
is a thing. Almost everyone. Everyone has imposters Yeah, of
33:59
course. Yeah. And it's like, it's so good to hear you
34:02
speaking about it so openly. And honestly. Yeah. Because anyone
34:05
that listens to this is gonna go. I felt that way. Yep, I feel
34:09
that way. And what I love about it is how you turn it into a
34:12
positive Yeah. And it drives you on I just can't help but feel
34:17
this is all fueled by your sporting background and the
34:20
coaching six o'clock in the morning. Yeah, it's like just
34:23
that constant pushing of you not quite sure if you're going to
34:27
make it if you're going to be the best. You go in this out
34:31
following your dad's footsteps is gonna give you that imposter
34:33
syndrome. Having a failure at one company where you got let
34:36
go. I understand all of those thoughts and feelings and can
34:41
just relate to it as I'm sure everyone can. Yeah, I'm really
34:43
appreciate you being so open and honest. When you offer in this
34:47
way, can you talk to
34:51
Jack Hankey: my dad like he does an old school guy but he's, I
34:56
remember when I first told him I was struggling and they
34:58
surprised me of how Modern he was in his thinking about
35:02
people's mindsets, and not necessarily mental health so
35:07
much trouble with that. But you knew that, you know, you could
35:11
go down that slippery slope sometimes. So yeah, speak to my
35:15
dad. Just to it's more. It's also like, I think my dad
35:19
enjoys. He's retired now. And he's retired. This is the third
35:23
time he's retired, come back. And I remember the first time I
35:27
retired, immediately, I really talked to him about work. And
35:31
you could tell him, he was like, the sharpness was you're able to
35:34
slider. He's not old, but you know, you're working every day.
35:37
And then you're not detail. That's probably why I went back.
35:40
Now I talked to him pretty much every day, tell him about my
35:43
day. I remember that every day, on the way home from work. Or,
35:48
like, more than I've spoken this morning, telling him you know,
35:51
going on this today and excited looking forward to having a
35:53
chat. And he was that all make sure you know, give me advice.
35:57
And I still just naturally so he does. So yeah, my dad, I also
36:03
have, like, one or two really close friends that one of them,
36:08
unfortunately, is on the other side of the world now. But I
36:12
whenever I've like a feeling of situation, he was a project
36:15
manager, the other guy's a salesperson, so he gets it. So
36:18
there's probably the three people I talked to the most.
36:21
mark ackers: And so you got your dad, you've got your two
36:23
friends, one of which is in sales yet. But also you've got
36:27
an external coach, haven't you? Yes, yeah. Talk to me about your
36:30
coach.
36:30
Jack Hankey: Ian. Yeah, he's a he's brilliant, very successful
36:34
business person throughout the years. Why we like what he's
36:38
got. So you're normally young people who run business
36:41
sometimes maybe not sales background, but he worked his
36:45
way up for business in sales. I tasked him as my therapist,
36:48
right, by I am. Life I've gone through I went through a bit of
36:52
a breakup about two years ago. And I didn't tell him, but he
36:56
knew something was up and I spoke to him and he said, next
37:00
hour, we're gonna just put Jack Hankey back together. It was
37:04
brilliant. I always always be thankful for that. Boy, but
37:08
there's time that I could be sometimes a little bit rushed to
37:12
to action. He's really helped me like understand feedback loops
37:16
made me much more mature. You know, I couldn't I wouldn't be
37:20
in a position I'm in today. If it wasn't for the support he's
37:24
given me because it's nice to have someone who you know, I've
37:27
got Brian and Jimmy and all on Swifty etc. We can lean on for
37:31
advice. That's very much late and centric advice. This is
37:35
completely just this. He calls it. Operation Jack Hankey. This
37:39
is Jack hankies world. Let's do it.
37:43
mark ackers: So I love that just for the listener, Brian Swifty
37:46
and Jimmy are senior people in your current business. Yeah,
37:51
your coach and external to external to the business. And
37:55
has your coach done a similar role to yours before it had
37:58
success in it?
38:00
Jack Hankey: I think he's been like a sales director and
38:03
managing director with various different companies hasn't done
38:06
the sales development side, like lead generation. So, you know,
38:11
sometimes I'll be saying something to him. He's like, he
38:13
used to explain that. Yeah, what that means. But at the end of
38:17
the day that I one thing I took from him is how to basically
38:22
build a function. When I took this job I've just all I've ever
38:25
done was manage maximum of seven people in my team salespeople.
38:29
So then taking over department, a really important department as
38:32
well, later. Now, this is where we, you know, really breed our
38:36
future talent. Sounds
38:38
mark ackers: like, here's the key thing. Yeah, they've walked
38:41
in your shoes. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And they're external to
38:45
the business. Yeah. So I suppose my question to you is like, How
38:49
helpful is that been? Yeah, feels like it's been
38:51
instrumental. Let's just pick up on you've almost said like, I
38:55
wouldn't be where I was today. Yes. If it wasn't for my coach.
38:58
Yeah. How so?
39:00
Jack Hankey: Yeah. So it'll be like, like I say, I've never
39:02
really had experience of like managing the power, but
39:04
understanding and what I'm saying now is, he told me this
39:07
one thing about how to breed to basically get results from a
39:10
department. And it was cool. It was like a, an equation, and I
39:14
call it obey. So he's been obsessed with behaviors,
39:18
activity environment, that's all you need to worry about, and
39:21
that will equal results. So I kind of like as soon as I
39:26
started the job all I would talk about gold, I would annoy people
39:29
in the office. That add up point once I started getting it, it
39:33
kind of clicked to me that I'm going to learn a ridiculous
39:37
amount of Misko but I obey thing behaviors, activity environment,
39:41
can use it and anything. If you create if you get people with
39:44
the right behaviors, doing the right amount of activity and you
39:48
can create an environment that they can flourish in.
39:52
mark ackers: We're going to fly, how often you speak with your
39:54
coach once
39:55
Jack Hankey: a month, four to five weeks
39:59
mark ackers: and Here's the thing you'll know this not a
40:02
latent later, I got an amazing coaching program. Obviously we
40:06
were very good in terms of like the professional sales that
40:10
you've obviously met hundreds if not 1000s of salespeople. Yeah,
40:14
most don't have a coach. No. What do you think about that?
40:19
Jack Hankey: Years and years ago, I would be like, Why? No,
40:23
no, why not? My job we have one I'm very much of the opinion
40:28
selling is it's an art, it's a skill. I would be a strong
40:33
advocate my guest to be an optional university who's going
40:36
to learn how to sell because there's psychology around it.
40:39
understanding people's biosimilars loads you can make
40:42
you can become a bit of a nerd and get out into Kenya. So, when
40:48
you don't have someone trying to better you like any part life,
40:50
not just sales, but any part of life, if you can, you see people
40:53
are personal trainers, and you're doing it because they're
40:55
the expert, they don't want to do it. I'm not saying the coach
40:57
is the expert. But it's nine times out of 10 is someone who's
41:00
maybe been in your shoes DuNay experience, they can help you
41:05
get away from making mistakes. But don't get me wrong, I think
41:07
people need to make mistakes, people need to fail, because
41:09
that's the best way you can learn personally. But you can't
41:12
always fail and make mistakes and pick up the pieces, you
41:15
know, you need some guidance. So like five, get my team never
41:19
make them want to make a decision. And I'd say Would it
41:21
bother me? Let's just bounce ideas off. Whenever I want to
41:25
make a change. I also see new people in my department. I'm
41:28
thinking about this. What do we do? And then it's twofold. To
41:33
reason to do it is number one. Just to get some extra ideas,
41:38
make sure I'm thinking about but it's automatically getting buy
41:40
in from them. If a few ideas in this plan.
41:44
mark ackers: How important do you think it is that your coach
41:47
is external to the business?
41:49
Jack Hankey: Yeah, I think that's that's a that's a big
41:51
one. Because I can actually talk to him, about me with anything
41:56
to do with later. It's about what I need to do to develop.
42:00
And he's not giving me answers to make me better because he
42:05
wants better results. He's making me better. Now, by the
42:09
way, I'm not saying that, you know, the nicest 50 around do
42:12
that. Don't. But he's still late like I coach, I'd say I coach,
42:17
all my team. Not regularly. But like just in general. We're
42:21
having chats, I feel like we're coaching. I'm quoting him
42:24
because giving them advice. We're talking about bouncing
42:26
ideas off each other, no real structure to it. I've got a
42:31
couple of my guys, obviously on board with yourselves, and death
42:34
and dislike, they're coming out of it going really, really
42:37
enjoyed that chat, because it just gave me a different
42:39
perspective. That yeah, Jackie can teach you that. But he was
42:43
just talking to me or she was just talking to me about this.
42:47
And you just opened up. I think you get banned because he didn't
42:50
know he's just all about that. So yeah, it makes a big
42:54
difference.
42:55
mark ackers: How honest are you with your coach?
42:58
Jack Hankey: are probably too honest. Yeah, to to be honest.
43:02
Yeah, totally. Obviously. I told him about Yeah, I was engaged
43:04
and we broke up. So like, I spoke to him about that. I've
43:08
never met him. I've only met him on teams. But I feel I can tell
43:11
him pretty much anything I treat my head. He's my therapist,
43:15
mark ackers: it feels like obviously, you cover both
43:17
professional and personal coach. And that obviously gives them a
43:20
full version of you. And imagine a world where for whatever
43:24
reason, that was all taken away. Coaching program wasn't provided
43:29
you didn't have access to a coach. Yeah. What would you do?
43:34
Jack Hankey: Put a lead on family and friends again, quite
43:36
a lot. I would you know, I was before I only had a vote, we
43:40
started having a coach in the last two years. Before that,
43:44
YouTube was my best friend.
43:47
mark ackers: Would you go and get your own coach? If you're if
43:49
you're if your company stopped providing the coaching?
43:55
Jack Hankey: Yes, and no. I think that one is so distinct.
43:59
So yes, I would want one. And I would want to go and get what I
44:02
would happily pay for the no side of it. I will want to pick
44:05
on God, I would want someone to like that. Well, that's similar
44:10
to what you guys do you sit down, you analyze the person,
44:13
and they go out and eat dinner free buffets you. Yeah, that's
44:16
what I would rather do it that way rather than me thinking
44:17
about who do I want or like that person, because then I might be
44:21
in all of them a little bit too much, or I might not want to
44:22
open up and I might not want to tell them about my mistakes, or
44:25
something like this profile fits you because of you like this,
44:28
your mindsets there. Your behaviors are that this is the
44:32
right profile for you to work with. I wouldn't want any bias
44:36
on my side. Right? So what I liked, so,
44:39
mark ackers: okay, so what I'm hearing there is if you lost
44:42
your coaching program, you would want to coach your ambassador,
44:45
but you'd want to help finding the right ones. You wouldn't
44:47
want to make a mistake. Yeah, I get that. So I feel like there's
44:52
loads more we can ask but let's talk about your current role
44:55
then. Yeah, you are a coach on you. Right as well. You
44:58
obviously you're the manager, the team that you're also Coach
45:01
talks about how all the coaching you've had sport, personal
45:07
professional, from your dad from your friends from your current
45:11
coach. Yeah. How has that shaped who you are as a coach?
45:16
Jack Hankey: Oh, good question. I think from my side, it's a
45:21
trap, I try to be a bit of a Frankenstein with it. So I think
45:27
I've said it before, I like to think I'm the culture can be
45:29
coached. Right? That is me. So that doesn't mean. So when I go
45:34
and work with the guys, I'll lean on them a lot to what they
45:38
want, our culture was very differently. And my coaching
45:41
style now is very different to what it was three or four, three
45:43
years ago. Now it's very much personable, talk to me very
45:48
conversational, structured around helping them really
45:53
analyzed, like data and all that not really selling stuff,
45:57
because these guys are managing managers now. So it's talking to
46:00
him about how they deal with people problems and things very
46:04
different. When I was actually coaching the guy, I would do
46:06
very structured two or three sessions a week on, I would
46:10
teach you three sessions a week, the first session would always
46:12
be something that I'd come up with, like a random idea, and
46:15
watch a YouTube audit or something. And I always say you
46:18
have a qualifier in a qualifier out, either one or two is a
46:21
success. Because if I've talked showed you something, it doesn't
46:24
resonate with you, at least you're not going to waste your
46:26
time trying to learn how to do that, you know, it's not going
46:28
to resonate with you can take it off your list and move on.
46:30
Because not every not every salesperson to say. So, yeah,
46:34
I'd say I'm a Frankenstein, I can coach very stiff. I like to
46:37
really understand my people. I'm quite like, obviously, we spoke
46:40
about that like to personal side. It's I don't know what I
46:45
don't know. So if I'm having a problem, and I'm struggling, but
46:47
not telling me like they will tend to tell me now but let me
46:51
first start by letting people know that open.
46:54
mark ackers: I'm sure you can appreciate why though. Someone
46:57
would struggle to own up to you as the boss. Yeah, versus why
46:59
you would be too honest with your external coach. And that
47:03
can always be quite difficult. Yeah. If you've used the term
47:07
Frankenstein, so Frankenstein's monster, putting together all
47:10
the best policies, if you were to put together the perfect
47:13
Coach, what attributes do you think the best coach needs and
47:17
maybe try and take stuff from the coaches you've had? Yeah.
47:21
Jack Hankey: Empathy, like emotional intelligence, that
47:24
definitely the biggest ones. A real good understanding of the
47:28
person you're dealing with. And something to add value to add.
47:34
Like, there's plenty of coaches who think they're torturous, but
47:37
they're added nothing. They just say ner. Like, so actually being
47:41
able to add value. And the value is like in a sale, you're not
47:43
gonna go and sell something to someone, or just tell them that
47:47
they need it, you're gonna ask them questions you're gonna get
47:49
understand what their problems are and what they need. And
47:52
where, you know, you have a ridiculous amount of discovery
47:54
questions. And then you give them you ever say to them,
47:57
right, we can do this to help you, we can do this to help you
47:59
don't just go, oh, we stopped wanting a one size fits all kind
48:03
of thing. So it's about really getting to understand and kind
48:06
of selling and asking the questions that you need to go.
48:08
So yeah, emotional intelligence and fee, and then a real
48:13
interest in the person.
48:15
mark ackers: And when we talk about real interest, this brings
48:19
me back to what I was asking you right at the very beginning
48:20
about the coach and they care about you. Yeah. It's very
48:24
different when you're the manager. Like you, you do care
48:27
about those people because you've got a goal. Yes. You need
48:31
them to hit their goal. Yeah. How do you manage that in the
48:34
sense of when you're speaking with your external coach? Yeah,
48:38
it's operation Jack Hankey. Yes. When you're coaching an
48:41
individual in your business, there's operation, whatever
48:46
their name is, yeah. There's also the business goals to hear.
48:48
How do you how do you balance that?
48:54
Jack Hankey: From my side, the operation excellent. I use his
49:00
name kale. Kale as a priority. But I, I would like to I look at
49:06
my departments i for many business trades, people first
49:09
results second. Because if you go for results, first people
49:14
will show because the Biden's not about them get burnt out.
49:20
Because I saw you talking about if you've made sure you put in
49:22
the environment for your people first and making sure everyone's
49:24
happy. They're enjoying themselves. They're learning
49:26
they're developing the results cool results probably 10 times
49:31
better as well. Not 10 times larger. So yeah, I benefited by
49:35
just focusing on the people. So
49:37
mark ackers: I love that answer. But sales also results
49:39
businesses and we live at quarter to quarter. Yeah, month
49:42
to month. I suppose there is still that balancing act like if
49:46
your team will miss target for three months in a row but you're
49:49
saying yeah, but they're all really happy. Yeah,
49:52
Jack Hankey: we did when I started. I was also bad when I
49:55
started in this job. How that they weren't great when I took
49:59
them the department And the first few months, I didn't want
50:02
to do anything. And what I mean by that I wanted to silently
50:05
observe the department, I didn't want to come in and tear it
50:07
apart. I needed to get by it. I wanted to make sure I knew
50:11
everything around the department. And it was also a
50:13
good, and I was getting calls for like, are you going to
50:17
change something here? Like it's not working? And then not
50:21
literally overnight? It was it was a planned approach. But it
50:25
felt like overnight for people that weren't right, this is what
50:27
we're doing this. So we're gonna do it. Let's go. Here's the
50:29
tools, let's work together.
50:31
mark ackers: Let's get into that. Yeah, what what was the,
50:34
this is what we're doing.
50:36
Jack Hankey: So I wanted to push on. So how we worked as a
50:39
business late and like the sales development function was purely
50:43
lead generation. That's why they saw themselves. I've worked in
50:47
the last 16 to 18 months a spouse of we are revenue
50:51
generator, we're revenue generating business, what we
50:54
need to do. So getting switching people's mindset, rather than
50:59
getting a conversation started, it's getting a conversation
51:01
started with a potential client, who's going to yield revenue for
51:05
the business. And that's what we're talking about. So if
51:09
you're setting up a meeting for business developer score,
51:12
attend, you got to be proud and taught our business. This is
51:16
what I think the most, when this is what I think they do with
51:19
potentially help. And that was a big switch, because like we
51:23
would do, you know, they would get paid. And I don't know, it's
51:27
bad. And like, for me, certainly we're getting paid and like a 10
51:31
or 15 minute conversation classes meet attended by most
51:35
will get paid on, am I so I didn't change commission
51:37
structure to sort of get paid on revenue. Now, you still get paid
51:40
on the generating. But a large portion is on the revenue
51:43
number. So it's completely changed, right? Like say it's
51:45
the training camp, I call it the training camp, because I want
51:47
these people to be to have a career in sales. Doesn't
51:51
necessarily mean people can have career doing SDRs and stuff like
51:54
that. But most of them are, these guys we've got a lot of
51:58
them are really early 20s, trying to carve out a career. So
52:01
we need to we've got a great opportunity here when it's still
52:03
in real high end learner mode, to teach them how to do his job
52:09
get our skill sets before, for me, it could be a degree he
52:13
sells it at the amount of sort of intricacies on so that some
52:18
of the key changes are made, made a couple of behavioral
52:22
changes. The environment it was it was tough. It was like it was
52:26
like a boiler room department wasn't nice. As in you just have
52:31
you know, it's like we've been on the phones is hard. During a
52:35
bad day, it's hard to pick up that phone. So we need to create
52:38
an environment where we make it fun night today in Manchester.
52:41
They're doing a activity day, I won't tell you what it's called.
52:46
But it's a fun name. And all the best emits a bitter, early leaf
52:54
incentive day or something like that. So one of our managers is
52:57
moving to London. And the obvious thing I don't want to
53:02
do, it's called Mr. Better. This way, it's a Manchester thing
53:05
that goes over my head. I'm too old to understand what they're
53:08
talking about after time. And only got it. Yeah, it's strange.
53:14
But that's a fun day, and everyone's involved. And then
53:16
you know, everyone's got to go for a drink afterwards.
53:20
Together. We've got a bar booked out from not not too crazy over
53:24
time and makes it fun. But doing the same job today as it did
53:27
every day. But bottom line is everyone's laughing and enjoying
53:30
the job in the office.
53:31
mark ackers: And that goes back to what your coach used to do
53:33
create an environment for you making it fun and make it
53:36
enjoyable got gold here. Yeah, but let's have fun along the
53:39
way. Because this is this is really hard.
53:41
Jack Hankey: Yeah. And we do like last week we did a national
53:45
court day. So like Glasgow versus Manchester versus London.
53:50
That really gets them fired up about this. You don't really
53:53
need to do I run the last one a couple of those. Well, actually
53:56
the one before that I did or is on the when the Australian Open
53:58
was on so obviously I did a tiny screen recording. And it's just
54:04
there's nothing special. It was just a thing, but everyone was
54:07
like got angry if they lost. And yeah, and we also have like, we
54:14
call it a World Cup. So then 60 STRS Oh, no, no, no, they create
54:23
a World Cup. So I've groups of four play
54:26
mark ackers: home in a way that's already they will get a
54:27
team or they are a team.
54:29
Jack Hankey: Yeah. And then it's not like people get like there
54:36
was we don't always happen to happen for the last two years
54:39
for over two years. Now. The semi final always like there's
54:44
always a bad decision or dodgy decision I need to really think
54:47
about like because it's too close because obviously it
54:50
started who gets the most beat means books and all that sort of
54:53
stuff. It's that old school SDR in his phone. It was only for a
54:56
month and it all always comes down with a tie. And then it's
55:01
like milliseconds in my how much people spend on the phone that
55:05
day. I remember last year I ran the numbers three times your
55:09
three different results. Like one person won't any other
55:12
person one and then it was like a tie. And I was like, What am I
55:14
gonna do there? I nearly did a penny shoe, which is a the whole
55:19
department on a call and then see people after ring finger
55:23
ring five numbers.
55:25
mark ackers: This needs to be recorded and put on YouTube.
55:28
Jack Hankey: I'd well I didn't do it because it was actually I
55:30
think it was like World Mental Health Day. So as far as mental
55:34
health, so I just had to make a decision.
55:37
mark ackers: Bloody hell. Yeah. Okay. Let's imagine someone's
55:42
listen to this podcast. Yeah. You're there. That'd be nice.
55:46
Yeah. You're there Paddy. Yeah, I've had that realization that
55:51
I'm crap. Yeah. What's the advice?
55:54
Jack Hankey: Be a sponge be open? Don't just because you
56:00
crap doesn't mean you always gonna be crap. Like, get it
56:03
ahead. Like everyone's never gonna start slow. You can talk
56:08
when he was a baby obviously couldn't walk in. But you learn
56:12
naturally as people. We do want to learn, especially I do think
56:16
people get in sales. Like there's a stigma, right? You're
56:19
in sales, you can't do anything else. And I said, that's why I
56:21
did it. Now I'm I can do sales. I look appeals or you can do
56:26
sales. It's just hard. And I speak to people like I can do I
56:30
have to continue that job. So I think the whole thing I don't
56:33
know if you felt this, but the whole stigma around sales is
56:35
completely 180. Were actually people I know it's not I don't
56:40
seem to show that white gold. a loved one. Yeah. That's the
56:44
impression that people have of salespeople right years ago.
56:47
Now. I think he's got one he was out yet is
56:51
mark ackers: that is a career. So I don't think that's true.
56:54
Actually. No, no, let me know. So let me tell you what I think
56:59
happens to people like me and you that are on LinkedIn. I
57:03
think our bubble changes. I think we're now surrounded by
57:08
people in sales and the profession. Yeah, we follow
57:11
people. I think our bubbles have changed that make us think, oh,
57:16
sales is being respected. Yeah, right. Yeah. But it may you went
57:21
and walked down Newcastle High Street, and ask the average
57:24
person doesn't have to be Newcastle. That's where we are.
57:27
Yeah, we asked average. But what do you think of salespeople? I
57:30
think we'd get all the same stereotypes sleaze a pusher?
57:33
Yeah. But people won't get the type of sales that we do like
57:38
professional sales software. But I think we can be guilty of
57:42
thinking that all our bubbles take salaries really seriously.
57:46
Yeah. The world does. Yeah. I think if you ask the average
57:50
person out of your bubble. Yeah, I think all the stereotypes that
57:54
will still be there. Probably right. Yeah. Feels like you've
57:58
done another one. Not in a respectable career. Have you got
58:05
nieces and nephews? Yeah. If one of them asked you or come to you
58:10
and said yeah. On key Jack. Yeah. Think about that itself.
58:14
Would you say? Go
58:15
Jack Hankey: into it? No one respects it now. I'd say do it.
58:19
I did. The doors are open, the opportunities are open to what
58:22
you can learn. The reason I've gotten sales originally was
58:28
obviously because I felt like I couldn't do much else. But then
58:31
also as the earning potential is there. But I will try and avoid
58:35
talking to him about that. Because the good thing about
58:39
being able to earn more money. The bad thing is you feel the
58:41
pressure when you don't and then also you feel the pressure if
58:44
you miss numbers, and I suppose it's like a double edged sword.
58:48
So I would highly recommend it. Because look at your granddad,
58:53
look at your uncle. We've done our way out of it. We enjoy our
58:57
jobs. You've got to have two pretty good coaches. I
59:01
mark ackers: love that you freed me slightly when he was like
59:03
looking at your granddad or young lorry drivers do you think
59:09
sounds professional be proud of them?
59:11
Jack Hankey: I'm incredibly proud of what I do. Pretty proud
59:14
of myself being website here today. In your first year in the
59:17
orange Jaya. But now like Yeah, cuz I if people ask me what I
59:24
do. I kind of skirt around a little bit more now because it's
59:28
kind of hard to explain what I actually do. I've done on
59:30
central as you do. But I say yeah, I'm in South, but very
59:35
straight away bank sales. Working for tax consultants. Do
59:40
mark ackers: not feel that though. Maybe this is my head
59:43
trash. I'm posh. I feel that if I speak to people that say, I go
59:46
to my wife's companies do right. And they will say what do you
59:52
do? I just say I'm in sales. I send it it's a bit like if I'll
59:55
say someone or who's your football team, and they go I
59:57
don't like football. You know? I I feel like when I say Bill, I'm
1:00:00
in sales. I just go. I'm in sales that I sense that. Oh,
1:00:05
yeah, I don't know. Don't feel that. Yeah, I've
1:00:08
Jack Hankey: actually probably felt on like dates. Okay?
1:00:11
Because I'm like, Oh, now I know why you're asking all these
1:00:13
questions, right? Because you're trained to do it. I get here.
1:00:19
When really like, I think I did a LinkedIn video a couple years
1:00:22
ago about sales is just dating. Now, Valentine's Day, something
1:00:26
I might smoke. Yeah, it was good. But now like, yeah, maybe
1:00:32
like that instances, I don't really go to many events. Where
1:00:36
I would talk to like, different people who I'll be at the event
1:00:39
because I'm bad for work or something. But yeah, feel it
1:00:44
when like, yeah, if you're on a date, or something like that,
1:00:47
they click on or
1:00:51
mark ackers: she's gonna be you sat out front agenda or the
1:00:53
stuff. This
1:00:54
Jack Hankey: is what we're gonna go through.
1:00:55
mark ackers: There's two outcomes. If you had your time
1:01:00
again, yeah, you go back to you realize you need to get a job.
1:01:05
Yes. And you've got your time again, what's one thing you do
1:01:07
differently? Not take
1:01:09
Jack Hankey: eight years, to really understand what I'm
1:01:12
doing. Like, likely, I've only been doing it, I don't mean,
1:01:17
it's a very long time. But eight years is quite a long time to
1:01:22
actually get your head around it. And so yeah, just I just
1:01:27
have the minds that I had when I was 2928.
1:01:30
mark ackers: So what's the quickest way you could speed
1:01:31
that up, then?
1:01:33
Jack Hankey: What do you mean? Not take eight
1:01:35
mark ackers: years? Say, say you had?
1:01:37
Jack Hankey: Oh, yeah. Did I just completely switch your
1:01:38
mindset have it. So you're going in there to learn you're not
1:01:40
going into that. So that's it. Your job right now is in selling
1:01:44
jobs, learning how to sell?
1:01:46
mark ackers: And what's the quickest way to learn how to
1:01:47
sell,
1:01:47
Jack Hankey: get a coach, you know, there's plenty of content
1:01:50
online, get stuck into it, speak to peers at a company. For me,
1:01:55
like the big thing I say, like, you know, we're in a, we're in a
1:01:59
world now, where hybrid working is a thing. I'm a fan of it. I
1:02:03
like the fact that people can work from home one or two days a
1:02:07
week. And do you wash it, like, for example, Saturday and
1:02:11
Sunday. But I stress whenever I hire is that you need to be in
1:02:15
the office, and I'm first few months, because what you're
1:02:19
going to learn from your peers outweighs everything. Just
1:02:23
hearing on the phone, them hearing you and phone, we have a
1:02:27
really good culture later than x 50 told you about I call it the
1:02:31
payback culture. Every single salesperson in my department in
1:02:35
the whole of Leyton has been helped by a peer in the past. So
1:02:39
they feel that they should pay it back. So I call it a payback
1:02:43
or two steps through the whole business. Anyone who's been
1:02:47
there a while you'll see them sitting with someone who's new,
1:02:51
and supporting them helping them. It's really good. Yeah,
1:02:55
it's a really unique I've never worked coming back. It's very
1:02:59
unique, like sales is notoriously cutthroat, every
1:03:02
person for himself, want to just be number one, don't care how to
1:03:06
get there don't care who to push past to get there late, and it's
1:03:11
celebrated. Yeah, I'd like to be number one. But I'd like
1:03:15
everyone to be PASCRELL, everyone to be smashing it.
1:03:18
There's still that little bit of competitive but I've never met a
1:03:22
sales company like it. Love
1:03:24
mark ackers: that. Jack, which brings us to the end of the
1:03:28
interview, I could sit here and talk to you about loads of stuff
1:03:30
for a lot longer. The thing I want you to do before you say
1:03:33
goodbye is you mentioned before we started recording that you've
1:03:37
seen some of the previous guests and the podcast is there. And if
1:03:40
there is I want you to look at your camera there. And I want
1:03:44
you to basically invite someone on someone that you would love
1:03:48
to hear their story of how they used to be crap, it's ours. And
1:03:51
join me on the podcast. So take your time. If you think too long
1:03:54
without that bit out. Yeah, when you're ready, if you could just
1:03:57
look down that camera and invite someone who's podcast. Just tell
1:04:01
him, why don't you come on?
1:04:02
Jack Hankey: So I'm going to nominate Well, Baron, so Well,
1:04:05
Jackie, a finish would come on the podcast, it'd be really
1:04:08
interesting to understand your story, how you got to where you
1:04:13
have your content has massively helped me in my career. So be
1:04:17
nice to hear your story. Jack,
1:04:19
mark ackers: thanks so much for not only making the effort to
1:04:22
come up to the studios and sit in the chairs, but just for what
1:04:27
has been just an amazing conversation. Really bought
1:04:32
something to it. It's quite different to the other podcast
1:04:34
and I always love the sport analogy and the coaching and
1:04:38
sport analogy and how that translate into sales. But you've
1:04:40
just been so open so honest and really embraced that we could
1:04:44
all sit here and we could sit here that a podcast about how
1:04:46
successful you've been. Yeah, but we could have done it. But
1:04:49
no one really learns from that. You've you've embraced that I
1:04:53
used to be crappy sales podcast really been honest. And it's
1:04:55
made for a great listen. Thanks very much. Thank
1:04:58
Jack Hankey: you enjoyed it.