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Second Thoughts | The Plague of Indifference · Neighbourly: Real Stories of Care and Community

0:01
So how cynical is Moses going there
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again and again, saying, God, you told me to do this. You you've called
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me to do this. Like, why isn't it working? Why is he still hardening his
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heart? Oh, yeah. Like, you you say those words, I got goosebumps because
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it's just like that sense of calling that brought Moses again and
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again and again. Like, haven't you learnt from the frogs already? Who likes
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frogs and fleas and oils? Right? This
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is Journey with Care, a podcast by Care Impact where curious
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Canadians find inspiration to love others well through real life
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stories and honest conversations.
0:40
Hey, Wendy. Welcome back. Good to be back here. We are in
0:44
our second Second Thoughts episode. That's a
0:47
mouthful. We're reflecting on our conversation we
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had with Troy. What a great conversation. The episode was
0:55
called From Meh to meaningful, a sinning sky to compassion.
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What are your thoughts just coming off of that interview? Well, I really
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loved, talking with our friend Troy. We go back quite a few years, so
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it was just really neat to connect on this topic. And and I have to
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admit, Johan, that it also challenged me.
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It gave me some framework. Even going to this last weekend, I just came back
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from Toronto from a lot of meetings and networking. And and it
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sat with me throughout the weekend, taking to heart some of the
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challenges that came out of our conversation saying, how do we
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respond to cynicism, and why am I feeling cynical?
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Can I go deeper than taking the cheap seats? And why do
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people respond cynically to maybe the
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grandiose God vision that Care Impact might be up to?
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And is it even possible, this quest we're on, to see the whole
1:47
church engaged in caring for their neighborhood? Yeah. I thought it
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felt like it was a really important conversation for the church in
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general at this time. I was also, like, it it
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kept coming back to me over the weekend, and it forced me
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to think about the areas. Where am I cynical? Where am I
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not curious? Where am I having
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presumptions about people and about good ideas.
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And I think I came to the conclusion that I got some
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cynicism in me. Join the club, the cynics
2:20
club. Wait. We have to be gracious. Like, if if our listeners are
2:24
thinking, well, maybe, yeah, what Troy said resonated with me too or I'm
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facing that, I think we need to be gracious to ourselves and
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saying, what is that we talked about? It's a coping
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mechanism. It's maybe the cheap seats to how we deal with things, but
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it is a coping mechanism for probably some mistrust
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that has happened, that we have reason to kind of choose
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those upper deck seats. There's inner wounds that have not been
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dealt with that if we like, I don't wanna put my hand to the fire
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again. I already got burnt once. And so there's a cynicism that we're
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like, heck no. I'm not going near that again, and
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it's warranted. So I think there's grace for it. But,
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Johan, where do you think we can pass through it? Because, obviously, we can't
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camp in camp cynicism in everything in life because it
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it it's really not gonna be for the greater good. It's really we talked
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about it at the detriment of relationships and working through
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problems. Where do you see a a way through that? First
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of all, I think you're right. I think behind every cynic and every cynicism,
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there is a hurt. Right? Someone's been burned in one area or
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another. Otherwise, they have no reason to be cynical. And I I really
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like how like, your question you posed, how do we get through that?
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Troy really brought this to the forefront, and and it's the theme of our
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podcast. Let's get curious Mhmm. Or stay curious. Those
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are kind of the things we've been saying over the last few seasons of
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the podcast. And I really think curiosity is the key
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to battling cynicism. Just inquiring,
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asking those questions about, you know, why do you think this
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way? Why do you wanna do this? What's what's going on behind the
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scenes? Like, that's gonna battle that cynicism because
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we're just making assumptions when we're cynical. Yeah.
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Yeah. And and rather than bypassing around it and just saying, k. I'm
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just gonna avoid those things. I liked what we had also talked
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about, just needing that deeper sense of why
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and leading to a a higher sense of faith. I
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put it to practice this weekend. When I hear church
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leaders talking, there was I'll just say it. It was a beautiful
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city leaders network. There was over 50 people there from 19
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different cities. So city leaders that are working on church
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networks in their city. So very inspiring. But the cynic in
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me says, but church, wake up. We've been trying to work
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with you, and you're still in your your little church
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tense. And how do we land the plane? How do we really create impact?
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How do we really work with government? But what I felt
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challenged to is to sit at the table, not
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because I have higher power or greater insight, but God has
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empowered us with certain, insights and connections
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and this calling to bring the church into community and
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for the community to really influence and inspire
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the church on what it means to be the church. Faith allowed
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me to genuinely sit there at the table
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and smile in the face of
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some of our greatest obstacles and say, but God, my my
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faith isn't in convincing people around me. My faith
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isn't but God has called me. He's given me this invitation to sit
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in a room of people that are equally called by God.
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And we're all trying to just find our way through and be able to smile
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at that because days before, just to put it in
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context, we can sing Kumbaya as churches and get really
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wound up and like, oh, great. Look at this way that God has called the
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church. And that is true. But I also, days before,
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sat with cynics within government around my kitchen table
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that are reporting to the ministry in in Ottawa on
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the plight of poverty. And the cynics around my table
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said, but, Wendy, do you really think
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the church there's hope for the church? Have you seen what has happened in
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history? Do you see how enclosed their minds
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are and how they're doing damage by not listening
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to the people? And so I'm sitting both sides of the table and
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saying, Kate, we need hope outside of this world. And that's what's
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anchoring me right now and rescuing from my own cynicism. And
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I'm working it out. I I don't have it. Yeah. And those questions that you
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mentioned, those are things that that inner cynic speaks
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to us. Mhmm. And it really chokes out faith.
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Yeah. And I think that might be one of the reasons why the Bible says
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take every thought captive. Mhmm. Right? Like, we wanna take those
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questions, those thoughts, that inner cynicism, and take it captive and say, no.
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This is actually choking my faith. And you're talking about sitting around
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a table of leaders. That's one of the my biggest personal wrestles. I'm just gonna
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be vulnerable here for a second, but I feel like I've had a bad track
7:16
record of church leaders in my life where, there have
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been some falling out, sexual sin, and all these sorts of things. And
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it's like, I'm starting to be cynical of church leaders Yeah. And
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church leadership. And ultimately, your trust is in him. Our hope
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is in him. And we don't wanna put too much stock into
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our leaders. We wanna put all our stock into the word,
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into Jesus, into our faith. But you gotta still trust
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people. You still have leaders in your life. Right? But I I think there too,
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we need to have a bit of grace and reality check there because it is
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nuanced. I think we wanna say either we trust them or we don't. And I'm
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not gonna trust an abuser. I'm sorry. I I it doesn't mean I can't forgive
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them, but I'm not gonna trust somebody who has
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exploited my gifts and my talents in ministry and have used
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it for not in a glorifying way. I cannot trust them.
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And those things are true, and it doesn't mean that we just,
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like, oh, like, let's just put a Band Aid on that. It's okay. You
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know? Like, the church is still the church. It's the god And and spiritually bypass
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that. Those things are true, and it's also true what
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we're seeing on the other side. You know? And so I feel like we have
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to be okay with the middle messy and be
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nuanced in it and yet find healing, yet
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find redemption, yet find freedom within the
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yes and, kind of zone where I
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think we have reason to have filters. I I go into churches with
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different filters on, not because I'm trying to be cynical and I don't love
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the church, but I can't unsee what I've seen. I
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can't unhear what I've heard. And I don't think God calls us to
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just put it on a shelf and just say, oh, it's not so bad. I
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think we need to have a spiritual discernment on, like, honoring and
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drawing out what is good and nurturing those things and
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not not diminishing or or burying what
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is bad. Yeah. So there's a wrestle there that I hear when you're
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saying that. So where do we go from here? Like, we kinda mentioned how
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we can get through this, and that's through curiosity. But
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you're holding these two things in tension where you've seen the reality
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of of what has happened, but you still wanna have faith. Well,
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if you you think of it as a candy shop, I think or a a
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store, I think the easiest grab would be for
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the the eye level shelf of cynicism of the sugar coated candy
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and saying, oh, let's just grab this. This is gonna be a filler. It's gonna
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give our us a sugar high. We're gonna feel okay after this.
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Or the Sour Patch Kids or whatever that just gets that cynicism out of the
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way, and we just, like, unfiltered, just, like, blow people away
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and and sort of cancel them or just spiritual bypass is not
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so bad. That would be the easiest grab on the shelf. But I think if
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we go lower and we dig deeper, I think what
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we really need is the nutrition
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of wisdom and discernment, and I think that's harder because
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we're gonna have to prepare that. We're gonna have to cook that. We're gonna
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have to really be intentional about choosing what is good for us
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in those situations rather than the cheap filler.
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Cynicism is a cheap way out.
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It's a cowardly way out, and I'm speaking to myself in
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that. But where is the wisdom and discernment to say,
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okay. These things are not okay. I'm not I'm not
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okay with that, and I don't think God is okay with some of these things.
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But then what? Is there something, a
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mustard seed, is there something even at a
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small level, that is good, that we can honor and nurture?
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Do where do we see God in the messy? Is God gone
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and out of this, or is God seeking the righteousness
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of the people to draw out what is good and
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to speak out about injustice, take away what
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is bad, call out injustice, call out unrighteousness,
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but still with a a heart that's after God that is
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loving and kind.
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And I think there's an opportunity for us to get
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vulnerable in some areas where you're not necessarily exposing
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yourself to hurt again. Let's say there's a new church initiative and
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there's that inner cynic in you that says, well, I've seen that happen. That's not
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gonna work again. Maybe if you just give yourself to that thing, you're probably
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not gonna get hurt in that situation, but you're gonna give yourself an opportunity
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to learn from maybe past mistakes
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and past things that have happened and maybe you'll find a way to grow. I
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think Yeah. I think there's an opportunity for us to grow in going beyond
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being cynics and actually try doing some things without exposing
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ourselves to being burned and hurtled. Yeah. And I think let's learn
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from our cynical and the wounds from our past and why
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we're cynical. Let let that be our teacher. Let's not just
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shame ourselves for, like, oh, I can't believe my heart is, like, so cynical about
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this. No. Let's learn from our wounds. Let's learn from our
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mistrust. What is that teaching me? And now it would be stupid
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just to go into another situation and say, oh my goodness. I didn't know it'd
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burn me again. Well, you haven't learned. And
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so how can we learn from those things? And it's okay to
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have different filters. It's it's not a skepticism
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filter, like, if we if we aim high.
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It's like a, what questions would I ask differently so I don't get
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to the same end? What red flags was I to
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Pollyanna for that I was just hoping for the best and and
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that I should be discerning further? Like, we we don't have to beat
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ourselves up for having been hurt in that way in the
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past, but how can we ask discerning questions
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and look for discerning things and be okay
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with not having perfect outcomes? Be okay to walk
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away when things just aren't ready yet. This is something that I'm
13:09
currently working through. Not every church network, not
13:13
every pastor and leader who loves Jesus is gonna
13:17
get what it is the depth of what we're doing. They
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just don't. And it's not an English issue. It's not a marketing issue,
13:24
although we're trying to get better at at speaking a very accessible
13:28
language. I can walk into a room and there will be some people
13:31
that just get it, and I'm like, okay. We gotta keep going deeper. And
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then there's others that we have these discussions. I realize we're just not going
13:39
anywhere. And that's okay. It's not a judgment on them. It's just, like, this
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isn't the right timing. And so my earlier
13:46
self, my cynical self, would have said, you know, you
13:50
guys just don't get it. Just, like, shake the dust on my feet. Like,
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ah. Like, I I that cynical side of me. But now I can just, like,
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okay. This isn't my timing right now. I'm not gonna put a lot of
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invested time and energy into that area because I've
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learned from that. I will be burnt from that. We will go under for
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people like that, but there is a way that we can
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flourish. What comes to mind when you talk about that, I I think
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about Moses trying to get his people
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released from Egypt, from slavery, and the multiple times that he
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goes to the pharaoh, and pharaoh hardens his heart.
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Yeah. And yet he's taken a step in faith because he's being
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obedient to God. He's doing what God told him. Go to pharaoh and do this,
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and yet pharaoh hardens his heart. So how cynical is
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Moses going there again and again? Saying, god,
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you told me to do this. You you've called me to do this. Like,
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why isn't it working? Why is he still hardening his heart? And there's still
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humans involved. Right? Oh, yeah. Like, you you say those words, I
14:53
got goosebumps because it just, like, that that calling, that
14:56
sense of calling that brought Moses again and again and again, like,
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haven't you learned from the frogs already? Who likes frogs and fleas
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and boils? Right? Like, my goodness, that would be an opportunity for
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cynicism. But that calling came from above his own
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willpower to, like, make change happen and be a justice driven,
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like, I'm gonna, like, put my name make a name for myself.
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There was a deeper calling that kept bringing him back to the table.
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And you know what? There's some truth in that. If our calling
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is greater than the circumstances around, it will get us to
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do crazy things and keep coming back to the table. You've just challenged
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me. I need to keep going back to the the pharaohs of
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our our land. And not that everybody is like that, but it
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often the the pharaohs in my life are the pharaohs of
15:45
indifference. This is the the topic we're talking about. The people are like,
15:49
meh. I love it. Yes. But
15:52
meh. Can this really happen? But let's keep coming
15:56
back because And I think we can become cynical of the Lord.
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Right? Like, it was the Lord that told him to do it. And it's like,
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really, you're telling me like, it it's failing. So
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what are those circumstances in our life where we feel called to do something
16:11
so strongly, and it's like, okay, the Lord definitely has his
16:14
hand in this. I'm gonna go do it, and then we see it fail. Yeah.
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I mean, I've been in that situation many times, and I feel like a
16:21
failure. I'm like, god. I guess I didn't hear you correctly, but no. Like, Moses
16:25
heard the lord correctly. Mhmm. But, again, like you said, that
16:29
timing thing. It's that time. The lord's gonna do the right thing. He's gonna soften
16:32
that hardest heart, and it sometimes it takes human
16:36
effort. Sometimes it takes him calling us over and over again to
16:40
keep going at it. Right? And it's that obedience in responding
16:44
to the call and doing it anyway where we're not doing it
16:47
for the outcome measurements or the
16:51
KPIs or the the success in numbers and the
16:54
accolades of others. That's not necessarily a badge of
16:58
honor for faithfulness, and that and sometimes or often, that can distract
17:02
us. That's one of the plights of the church right now where we're
17:06
we have a marketing issue, you know, and and and the the church is in
17:09
decline. And and so, like, we need to be
17:13
based out of calling and obedience and grit to do
17:17
it anyway and realize that the outcomes are
17:20
cocreated. The power comes from God, but he also needs us to
17:24
be as obedient to actually show up and do the impossible.
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And, Johan, you and I doing the roles we were
17:32
doing and and a lot of things people might not realize that we
17:36
we show up for, it might not make sense to a lot of people.
17:40
But we do it anyway. We get up and face our computer
17:43
screens at our in our different homes because there's a sense of calling,
17:47
and we need to keep this to heart. I think that's a good
17:51
way to end this conversation. For listeners, like, I just want them to sit
17:55
with that Moses story because it's gonna sit with me now, I think, for a
17:58
little bit, going back and just being obedient to the voice of
18:02
the Lord. And let's not be cynical of the Lord. And we've got some maggots
18:05
in our land in politics and all kinds of things. So that analogy could keep
18:09
going. So so pay attention to the plagues around you and
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still keep showing up. Alright. Now it's time for
18:17
Care lingo. Alright.
18:20
So this one I posted on the Care
18:24
Impact podcast group on Facebook. So if
18:27
you're not on there, you might wanna join because you can make your voice
18:31
heard. We had a few people chime in on what they think our term today,
18:35
which is Wrap around services.
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Wrap around services. Alright. So we had
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Galena chime in, and she thought wraparound services had to do with kind
18:46
of wrapping your luggage at the airport, something like that. Yeah.
18:49
You know what I thought of you, Galena? I took a picture of it in
18:53
Toronto. I was stuck there. My flight got canceled, and they had wraparound
18:57
services just for you. They were wrapping luggage. I thought of you. And then
19:00
there's Kathy who said, isn't that kind of a spa treatment, a
19:04
chocolate wrap for me? She says. It was a fun play on,
19:08
words here. Now when I heard the term wraparound
19:11
services for the first time, I didn't know what it meant. I don't
19:15
remember what I thought it meant, but here's what I might think it meant if
19:18
I was hearing it for the first time. So I actually have two definitions like
19:21
I did last time. I'd like to do two. I don't know why. You know,
19:25
it's that extra employee at Subway specializing in those
19:29
customers that ask for a wrap rather than a bun. Oh. That would be a
19:32
wrap around service. Yeah. I am the wrap around Subway The wrap
19:36
around artist. Called. Yeah. Wrap around artist. That's it. Now this
19:40
is my favorite one. You know when you have that worship leader that's a
19:43
hip hop artist, he grabs that wireless microphone and starts bouncing around
19:47
the congregation, getting everyone into it. He's wrapping around.
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He and it's a service. It's a church this is called the wraparound
19:55
service where we're gonna get our rapper worship leader
20:00
getting this whole building jiving and bouncing. I saw that in the
20:04
notes, Johanna, and this is why I don't get it again because I'm not a
20:06
musician. I'm like, I hope he explains himself, but now I get
20:10
it. So, yeah, kudos to you. That was Would you go to a wraparound
20:14
service? If it was Troy. Troy is a really good, rapper.
20:17
He really is. And I've had him do wraparound in not just
20:21
in the youth, but with with seniors, and they were into
20:25
it. So we did wraparound service according to your definition.
20:29
So Troy, if you're listening, come to Winnipeg and do a wraparound service,
20:33
and we will show up. We will show up, and we will promote it on
20:36
the podcast. And this is Care Impact's first ever
20:39
wraparound service with Troy Lydian. Shameless plug. Find
20:43
Scribe. He goes by the, name Scribe for his music on
20:47
any music players. Yes. I'll
20:51
throw that in the show notes too. Yeah. So Wendy, what is a wraparound service?
20:54
Well, wraparound service, I guess, it's normal to me. I I wouldn't have thought of
20:58
all of these different definitions, but it simply means it's it we're
21:02
looking at the complexity of a situation and looking at it
21:05
multifaceted. So finding a supportive,
21:10
village around a individual, a
21:13
family, or a, group of people
21:17
that need wrap around support. So you can't just, like, give a
21:21
Band Aid and like, if you just give them food at the food bank, it'll
21:24
be fine. But food bank is at the table. We have family services,
21:28
counseling supports, and churches. Oh my goodness. There's such a
21:31
need, and this is what got me to quit my job to start this. There
21:34
is such a place and a need for the church to wrap
21:38
around families and individuals going through hardship,
21:41
not in a fix it way, but as part of the solution.
21:45
And just being in community, that is a wraparound
21:49
support and how we serve people in a
21:53
comprehensive way in collaboration with the
21:56
whole community. There you have it. Wraparound services.
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Hey. If you got a term that you would like us to decode, jump
22:04
in on the Care Impact podcast group on Facebook. In the show notes,
22:08
the link, you'll find it there. Or head over to our website,
22:11
CareImpact.ca/podcast and send us a message. You can do audio
22:15
message, text message, all that stuff. Thank you for
22:19
tuning in everyone. Thank you for sharing the episodes. That's
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how we grow the podcast. That's the best way is word-of-mouth. Keep
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sharing with friends and family, and let's get those conversations going at the
22:30
table. And always remember to stay curious.
22:35
Thank you for joining us on Journey with Care. To get more information on
22:38
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22:42
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22:49
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22:57
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