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I Feel Like... No, Wait, Actually I Think That… The Hidden Language of Emotions · The Virtual Couch

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Music.
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Hey everybody, welcome to episode 434 of The Virtual Couch.
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I am your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist,
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a certified mindful habit coach,
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a writer, speaker, husband, father of four, and creator of The Path Back,
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which is an online corn-ography recovery program that is helping people reclaim
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their lives, become the best versions of themselves.
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So go to pathbackrecovery.com and there you will find so much more information,
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including information on the highlight of my week, which is a group call where
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there's a bunch of us interacting.
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I really believe that the reason why we turn to any unhealthy coping mechanism
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is because there's something that maybe isn't right in our relationships,
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marriage, parenting, faith, career, health.
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So when you start putting those pieces together, the desire to turn to fill
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in the blank of unhealthy coping mechanism is something that starts to slowly,
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slowly subside and you become this best version of yourself.
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So go to pathbackrecovery.com and I would love to have you join me there.
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Also two quick things. I have a brand new website, go to tonyoverbay.com.
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And while you're there, sign up for the newsletter and follow me on Instagram
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at virtual.couch and TikTok at virtual couch and tis the season.
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So we'll be doing a lot more live question and answer videos in the coming weeks.
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There should be one later this week.
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But the second part is if there was ever a time to go watch the video on YouTube,
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I would highly recommend it. Please hit the subscribe button while you're there.
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I've been with facial hair for so long and I don't have it today.
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And there's a reason why coming up a project that I'm working on.
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But I have been told that I look like a young Voldemort.
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I don't think that's a compliment or a thumb.
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And actually, neither one of those really seems like much of a compliment.
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But it does feel kind of funny to have all the facial hair off when I didn't
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actually even have any facial hair till I was, I think, in my mid 40s.
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So I guess it's been darn near a decade and it does feel feels kind of strange.
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And I want to encourage any of you who happen to be in the middle of navigating
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or having questions about, you name it, regarding faith journeys,
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faith crisis, faith expansions, deconstructions, whether you're in a mixed faith marriage, you name it.
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It's very safe to say that about half of my practice has and has had for many
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years an element of faith.
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One or both people in the relationship or with individuals I'm seeing navigating
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some sort of faith transition.
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And so, I put out an allegory a little while ago on both Waking Up to Narcissism
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and the Virtual Couch podcast, and I made a call for these questions,
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and I've received a lot, and I would love to get even more.
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So, especially if you have relationship questions that have to do with navigating
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a faith journey, faith transition, faith crisis, then please go to my website,
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TonyOverbay.com, and contact me through the contact form there,
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and I would love to address those maybe on an upcoming episode.
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And I'll mention this just so, so briefly, patreon.com slash virtual couch,
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plenty more to come there.
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All right. I want to share some facts with you that I think as soon as you hear
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them or you then look them up, see them, Google them, you will never be able
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to unhear them or unsee these things the same way again.
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So let me start with the Amazon logo. If you haven't looked,
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it has a hidden meaning that most people miss. The arrow underneath goes from A to Z.
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Maybe that's an easy one, suggesting that they sell everything from A to Z.
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And then once you see it, you'll notice that every time you're shopping online
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or see an Amazon box while we're on logos, here's one that, and this is where
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I had to start Googling things to find out what it looked like.
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And then you cannot unsee this and look up the FedEx logo.
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This is a very clever optical illusion in the FedEx logo that forms an arrow
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that signifies according to FedEx lore, precision and speed and excellence and persistence.
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But the arrow hides in plain sight between the letters E and X. So check that out.
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Or one that I think a lot of parents started to realize as they sat their kids
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in front of the screen to watch Disney movies.
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And that is the fact that almost every Disney animated movie tends to have at
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least one parent who is either absent or who dies.
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And once you realize this pattern, you start noticing it again,
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almost in every Disney story from Bambi to Finding Nemo to Frozen.
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And you might've watched these movies dozens of times before without picking up on this theme.
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One that I've heard drives people crazy once they notice it.
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And so then I did have to go to Google and it is the first time I've heard about it. And it's so true.
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And that is how the actor Tom Cruise's front tooth is perfectly aligned with the center of his face.
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And it's something that most people never notice until it's pointed out.
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But once they do, they can't stop seeing it in every photo or every movie with him.
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Google it right now. Not if you're driving, but then come back.
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Or did you know that most all clocks, watches, you name it, and advertisements
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show the time is 1010. Why? Okay.
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Again, take a look and you'll see a happy smiling face.
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If you use the bottom of the clock is the smile because our brains are these
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fascinating things in that way.
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Once we become aware of a pattern that starts to jump out at us and places that
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we've never noticed before, there's a concept called apophenia,
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which is where we just, we notice patterns and we want to make meaning out of these patterns.
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The example I heard when I learned about the concept of apophenia was seeing
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rustling in the grass that are, you know, our prehistoric ancestors started
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to put a pattern together that if there's rustling in the grass,
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it might be this poisonous snake.
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And so, I will then make meaning out of that pattern.
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So, we tend to look for patterns in a lot of things.
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And in that same article about Apopheny, I believe that's one that talked about
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how people then sometimes see visions in things like burnt toast slices.
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Or I used to have a, this was to be funny, but I had a couple of Cheetos that
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looked like statuesque.
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They were crunchy Cheetos, if that makes more sense, but about people.
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They looked like them and I think eventually I ate them.
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And you probably heard the term confirmation bias and that is not what we're
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talking about today, but it is kind of a bit of a bridge to where we're going.
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So first quickly about confirmation bias, that is when our brain tends to focus
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on information that supports what we already believe or it aligns with decisions that we've made.
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But it's also kind of ignoring or undervaluing evidence that contradicts the
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decisions that we've already made.
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So essentially we notice what we expect to notice and how does that play out in everyday life?
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Buying a white car. So let's say that you decide to buy a white car before making
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the purchase. White cars might have just blended into the background and you
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probably didn't think much about them.
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But as soon as you drive that white car off the lot, you suddenly see so many white cars everywhere.
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And it's not that everybody suddenly bought white cars overnight,
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but now your brain is tuned in to notice them because they affirm your choice.
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You start thinking, wow, white cars are really, really popular.
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So this is confirmation bias at work because your brain is paying more attention
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to the evidence that white cars were a great choice because we want to feel
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like we made a good decision with the things that we buy or talk about buying, buying a jacket.
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Let's say you invest in some trendy leather jacket. This was me coming right out of high school.
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And then you walk into a restaurant and, and you're wearing it and you spot
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a few other people wearing similar jackets and you think, oh,
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okay, I knew this thing was in style.
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But on the flip side, if someone were to say leather jackets are so last season,
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then you might dismiss them as being out of touch.
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They don't get it because your brain latches onto the evidence that supports
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your purchase. And it filters out everything that makes you second guess it
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because we really want to feel validated that we did the right thing. Now, why does it happen?
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Kind of makes sense. Confirmation bias is this mental shortcut that helps us
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feel confident in our decisions and in our beliefs because we really want to
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make sense of things. We want that certainty so bad.
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And it's really comforting to notice things that make us feel like we're right.
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And it also eventually saves us some mental energy. But it can also lead us
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to overlook a lot of new information or stick very,
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very strongly to our original views, even when there is evidence that suggests
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that we should reconsider or that maybe we should look at some other factors
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that are in other people's decisions that they make.
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Big takeaway there is just understanding confirmation bias is really helpful
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because it allows you to step back and you can ask, okay, am I noticing this
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because it's actually true or because I'm looking for evidence to confirm my
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own choices or beliefs to make me feel better about myself?
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Confirmation bias or the awareness of it can be a really good tool for self-awareness,
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whether you're buying a car or a jacket or really starting to form opinions
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about anything in life, just being aware that is this my confirmation bias at play.
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But let me go back to what I just said there that allows you to step back and
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ask, am I noticing this because it's actually true or because I'm looking for
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evidence to confirm my own choices or my own beliefs?
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Because today I want to share something that I believe you will start noticing
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in almost every conversation that you have, including your own,
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even your own self-talk.
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And it's because it's something that is, it's very true. And it's a bit of an
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evolution to what we've been uncovering more lately with regard to identifying
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and understanding what do we do with our emotions and our feelings?
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Because hopefully you're on this journey with me where we're starting to realize,
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okay, at whatever age, it is time to start acknowledging we have feelings,
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we have emotions, and they're not the bad guys.
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And this is something so common that we all do it without thinking.
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But once you understand what's happening, you'll hear it everywhere is,
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have I hyped it up enough?
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Drum roll please if we had more budget we would insert some drum roll music there or noise,
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i'm talking about how often we say i feel
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when we really mean i think let me give you a
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perfect example this is something that happened in my therapy office just a
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week or so ago that really brings this to life so i was working with a couple
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and we're just going to call them mark and sarah they're based on a real couple
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and i noticed something fascinating happening in their communication mark was
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trying to express his frustrations about their relationship and here is what
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he said i'm quoting mark he said i feel like you don't understand me and i I
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feel like you aren't trying to save the marriage like I am.
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And I really feel like I need more from you in order to have hope that things will get better.
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Now, as their therapist, I could see something important happening here.
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Mark, and I don't want to sound dismissive.
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I almost had the natural bless his heart, but he thought he was expressing his
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feelings, which was huge because Mark started from a place of,
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I don't know, and I don't really care, or I don't really have an opinion.
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And now he's using the word feel, which sounds like such amazing progress.
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And it is, but he was actually sharing his thoughts, his interpretations and
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his judgments about the situation, the real emotions, the actual feelings underneath
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those statements were hidden behind these, I feel like phrases.
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So I gently bring awareness, help Mark break this down. So when he says,
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I feel like you don't understand me, what was really happening was this.
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His thought was, I think you don't understand me. That's a thought.
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But his actual feeling was, I was feeling lonely. I was feeling disconnected.
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And there are your feelings. So when he said, I feel like you aren't trying
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to save the marriage like I am, then we broke that down to the thought is,
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I think I'm putting in more effort than you are.
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And right now we're not talking about whether or not that is true because that's what he thinks.
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We'll probably hit my four pillars a bit later, but pillar two is that you can't
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tell somebody that what they are thinking or what they are feeling is incorrect.
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Even if you think it, even if you think what they're thinking or what they're
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feeling is incorrect, because they're thinking it and feeling it because they
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are after all sharing their thought or their feeling.
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And we'll hopefully get to what you do with their thought or their feeling a
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bit later too. So what is the feeling underneath? I think I'm putting in more effort than you are.
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A feeling, and we were able to get this out of him, I feel scared and I feel
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abandoned. I feel taken advantage of. I feel insignificant.
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And when he said, I feel like I need more from you to have hope,
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what was really going on was the thought, I think things won't improve if you're
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not working on things as well. That is his thought.
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His feeling, I feel pretty helpless and I'm starting to feel desperate.
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And here's what I think made this moment so powerful because when Mark started
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separating his thoughts from his actual feelings, something did really shift in the room.
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You could feel the energy, the vibe because Sarah, who had been pretty defensive and distant.
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Suddenly leaned in a little bit, literally leaned toward him on the couch and
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she turned to him and she was hearing maybe for the first time,
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not just what Mark thought about their situation, but how he was really feeling on the inside.
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And how often do I hear people say, I just want to know how they feel.
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I want to hear what they're feeling.
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But we often will say that, but
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then when the person does share their real feelings, we can get defensive.
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But this is really, it's significant because it's like the difference between
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somebody saying, I feel like you're being rude versus I feel hurt when you interrupt me.
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Because that first statement will
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often lead to an argument about whether somebody is actually being rude.
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What do you define as rude? Well, you're rude too. But the second statement,
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that's harder to argue with because it's about a genuine emotional experience.
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Because if we go back to that, it's, I feel hurt when you interrupt me.
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And I think this is why understanding the difference between thoughts and feelings
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isn't just about words. This one isn't about necessarily just the semantics.
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It's really a bridge to connection because when we can name and share our true
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feelings, we're now going to give others a chance to understand us at a very deeper level.
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It's that courage to be known, to be seen.
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And then we move from debate and defense. Now we can start looking at empathy,
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understanding, compassion.
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So right now, even take a pause. What are you feeling? Are you feeling,
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are you feeling confused? Are you feeling frustrated? Are you feeling hungry?
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Are you feeling sleepy? And what are you thinking?
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Get on with it. I get it. Or I don't understand what the big deal is.
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Or I think this guy's onto something.
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Or even, even then, did you think I feel like this doesn't matter versus I feel confused.
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Because I think that this doesn't matter. And just like those can't unsee moments
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that we talked about earlier, once you start recognizing this pattern in your
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own communication, you'll notice opportunities everywhere to dig deeper and
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express what you're really feeling.
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I liken it to maybe developing somewhat of an emotional x-ray vision because
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you start seeing through the I feel statements.
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And even then you can see or you can try to understand the true feelings underneath
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those I feel statements from those around you.
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And let me tell you, my first notes on this topic were a long, long time ago.
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I can even think of the first client who I shared this with first.
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And she and I tried to stick to the correct uses of I feel and I think for much of the session.
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And I remember feeling frustrated because I didn't know if I could keep it up.
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And I certainly haven't.
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So no doubt you'll still be able to pick out times where I'll probably misuse
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the thinking and feeling over and over again, probably even in this episode.
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Let me transition to a work scenario that I helped someone talk through last
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week. I was doing some business coaching that would put air quotes around that,
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but it's for somebody who, and he openly states this, doesn't want to think
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that he has a therapist, but he likes the idea of having a business coach.
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So I can, I can help with that. But he said, I feel like this project at work is going to fail.
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What's really happening though, is he's having thoughts about the project's
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future, the prediction of failure, which might be causing some actual feelings.
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We identified worry, we identified frustration, disappointment,
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but he's skipping over naming those real emotions and instead using feel to
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describe the thought process.
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And remember that our brain is hardwired to keep us safe.
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It is a don't get killed device. So I think we often jump straight to
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analyzing and thinking rather than sitting with and expressing emotions because
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I think it ties into a lot of the Kristen Neff research that I've shared on
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a couple of previous podcasts on self-compassion because I think that we tend
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to believe that expressing our feelings is weak and that ultimately it'll lead
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us to a lack of taking action and that will cause us to just sit in a corner
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and wait for somebody to rescue us.
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I believe that expressing our feelings and emotions will actually lead us to
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understanding ourselves better, which will allow us to take action on the things
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that matter to us as individuals.
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And by skipping the feeling part of life, it's almost like we're trying to solve
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a problem before we even acknowledge how the problem causes us to feel.
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And knowing what those feelings are, even if that's just an internal process,
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I think can help us know how better to solve those problems.
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Because I know that I, for one, have simply said, because it sounds like the
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correct thing to say, that I feel bad about what I'm about to say.
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When somebody's asking me if I think it It will take, let's say,
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like longer than they believe it will to, let's say, become more grounded,
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to be able to be more grounded in their response as they're trying to learn
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how to become more differentiated.
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But then I've realized that by allowing myself to truly sit with and understand
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my feelings, that's actually not the case because I actually feel pretty excited
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to share the correct information to the path of becoming more grounded.
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And I enjoy letting people now know that you're on the right path.
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And it's a longer process because I believe that the lack of people sharing
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the true length of time that it takes to make larger changes in people's lives
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has most likely led people to feel more frustrated and more down on themselves
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because they think that they're supposed to be able to completely shift their
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mindset in a matter of weeks when it can actually take months,
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if not more. And that is perfectly okay.
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So settle in and enjoy the ride and the scenery instead of thinking that you
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need to be able to have your default thoughts start in positive land rather
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than a negative bill when they've
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originated in negative bill for most of your life up to this point.
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So of course it will feel overwhelming at times. Of course it will feel discouraging,
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But if you can accept that fact, then you can also acknowledge the times when
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you are feeling happy in that moment or when you are feeling hopeful.
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And I truly think that is the type of information that comes when you allow
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yourself to feel all the range of human emotions and then give yourself the
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grace to think that whatever your brain is deciding to think at that moment
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is what it is deciding to think.
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And I can allow it in there. And it doesn't mean that it has to take me on some
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negative path, because I think the more we're able to identify our feelings
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and acknowledge the difference between our feelings and our thoughts, that we will have more.
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And I hesitate to say control over them, but we will. we'll be able to recognize
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the ones that are more productive toward our values.
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Our thoughts and our emotions literally change in an instant.
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Rather than feeling like it's going to be hard to navigate moving forward,
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you can feel both equally excited for the times that you're feeling happy about moving forward.
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You'll also feel frustrated for the times when you aren't feeling good about
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moving forward, or you're noticing that you are frustrated because you wish
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that you would have been able to figure all this out sooner,
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but you're also excited about the path ahead.
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And boy, when you hear it that way, that can sound like a whole lot of information
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that's coming in. And our default is black or white, all or nothing.
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Because that doggone brain is a don't get killed device thinks that,
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all right, if you keep thinking all these complex thoughts, you're going to
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wear yourself out and use all of your energy. And that is a false premise.
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So I want to talk about why people might struggle to express these feelings
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correctly. Let's go back to some origin stories. Some of my favorite parts of mental health.
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We'll call this an emotional vocabulary deficit because most of us didn't grow
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up with a good emotional vocabulary.
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Because maybe our parents or caregivers didn't model how to name feelings beyond
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basic ones like mad or sad.
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And when we were little kids, we would express ourselves and our parents felt
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like, or actually no, they believed or they thought for the most part that everything
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was a chance for them to teach or correct or to share a life lesson.
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I've been there as a parent.
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So we're just being kids. We're doing kid things. And our parents would typically
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respond with things like, don't do that. Or it's not that big of a deal.
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Or you need to calm down. Or that didn't hurt. Or you're not really hungry. Or you're tired.
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Or they didn't mean it. Which while a parent might have been trying to calm
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us down, what they were essentially doing was saying that our feelings were incorrect or wrong.
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And so as children, I believe that we felt like we were wrong about most things
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and that our feelings were incorrect and ultimately not to be relied on,
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our own feelings, and certainly not to be shared because they would most likely
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upset or burden or bother those around us.
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So eventually a kid stops externalizing their feelings and they begin to internalize them.
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And in doing so, they need somebody else to tell them that it's okay to feel a certain way.
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But even then that's going to be super uncomfortable because we're not used
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to expressing our feelings and we're wired to avoid discomfort.
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I was thinking about learning a new language. If anybody has learned a new language,
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and I know that there are people, what's the phrase of polyglot,
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that people that know a lot of languages and it's easy to learn.
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But I guess I'm talking about my experience. But when we first start,
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we might only know a few basic words. Yes, no, hello, goodbye.
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I studied German in high school for two years and another two and a half in college.
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And I'd say I'm still there at the hello, goodbye.
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I'll be having my bestest given, given it my best. Or some 20 trips to Japan
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later. And I can let you know what Tashi Watone-san.
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I am Tony. Where's the bathroom?
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Because bidets. But our early emotional vocabulary gets stuck at that same basic
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level. Happy, sad, mad. Where's the bathroom?
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Because that's where our emotional education often gets stopped or redirected.
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This is at the basis of emotional immaturity.
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And if we were modeled by our parents, emotionally immature responses,
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then of course, it's what we mapped.
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That's probably how we're showing up in our adult life. Although now we have a chance to heal that.
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So now think again about how parents typically respond to a kid's emotion.
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Let's imagine a common scenario. So a little kid falls and scrapes their knee
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on the playground and they start crying.
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Now, what typically happens, even a good parent, parent might say something like, Hey, you're okay.
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Or it's not that bad. Or big kids don't cry about little scrapes.
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Or if you do have a very immature parent, they might say, Hey,
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look, I got scraped up way more than you did when I was little and nobody saw me crying.
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Let's break down what's actually happening at that moment. The child,
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they're not just experiencing physical pain, they're probably scared,
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they're probably surprised.
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I mean, they're running and all of a sudden, boom, they have a knee pain and blood.
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Maybe they're embarrassed that they fell because they're around all their friends
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and they're possibly worried about whether it's even safe to keep playing because
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their current experience is you play here and you scrape your knee,
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period. End of story, it's a dangerous place.
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But instead of having those complex emotions validated and named.
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They're told, your emotional response is incorrect. And come to think of it,
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your emotional response may actually be annoying me as the parent.
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I'll give you subtle, indistinguishable, and completely confusing cues as to
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when you are allowed to cry. Not now, or on the playground.
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And then when you're supposed to cry. Like when Air Bud wins a soccer game at
20:47
the end of the movie, despite the coach on the other team being a jerk.
20:50
And absolutely zero people bringing up that it is a bit odd that this dog is
20:53
suddenly playing on an organized soccer team.
20:55
Does he have his rabies shot? Should he be wearing a diaper?
20:58
But it's like, I imagine if every time you tried to speak a new language,
21:01
then somebody told you, that's not what you really want to say,
21:03
or you don't really need to say that, or you're actually saying that wrong.
21:06
Let me show you how much better I can say it than you can, because eventually
21:08
you'd probably stop trying to speak that language at all and just let other
21:11
people tell you where to go, what to do.
21:14
And you're just going to start following the crowd. I think that's exactly what
21:17
happens with our emotions.
21:18
So I think, not I feel, I think that children eventually internalize their feelings.
21:22
And that's a pretty big deal because it's like they learn to put these emotions
21:25
all in a box, but then they never get the instruction manual for how to open that box later.
21:29
Then as adults, they find themselves in situations where they know that they're
21:33
feeling something, but they can't quite name it or express it.
21:36
It's like having a word maybe just right there on the tip of your tongue,
21:39
but it's with your feelings.
21:41
And then every now and again, something inside of that box has had it and it
21:44
will come out whether or not it's welcome.
21:47
Let's go back to this concept of the brain being a don't get killed device,
21:50
because it's also wired to avoid discomfort and it wants certainty.
21:54
A certainty that it would be safe to express myself, which it's not.
21:58
And now we have adults who never learned a robust emotional vocabulary,
22:03
taught that their emotional responses were most often wrong.
22:07
So then they internalize their feelings because that's basically a survival mechanism.
22:11
And then we're naturally wired to avoid the discomfort of feeling our emotions,
22:15
that we're not even sure if they are welcome and we are certain that they aren't very good.
22:19
And this starts to create a perfect storm where people end up saying things
22:22
like, Like, I feel like this isn't working instead of I feel scared that this
22:25
might fail because they don't know how to accurately name those emotions and
22:29
they don't even know if their emotions are correct.
22:32
Because they've spent years pushing those feelings and emotions down and
22:35
then that makes them really uncomfortable and it's really vulnerable
22:38
to express any raw emotions a couple more reasons
22:40
why i think this makes this so difficult and not natural another one is that
22:44
expressing your true feelings makes you feel vulnerable because it's a lot easier
22:48
to say i feel like you don't care which again actually a thought than to say
22:52
i feel hurt when you don't respond to my messages because that that exposes
22:56
our raw emotions that puts us out there that makes us very vulnerable because
22:59
if you say, I don't feel like you care,
23:00
what I've also done now is I put the burden on you to prove that you care.
23:04
But even in saying that, I'm telling you to prove to me that you care in a way
23:08
that will make me feel like you care.
23:10
So I just put my discomfort onto you. And I told you that now it's your job to manage my emotions.
23:15
I'm telling you how you feel. Now defend yourself and make me feel better.
23:20
And I really like this work of Marshall Rosenberg and his book,
23:23
Nonviolent Communication, enough to have made it my pre-pillar of the four pillars.
23:27
So before we get to pillar one, assuming good intentions, I say now that we
23:30
need to separate our observations from our judgments.
23:32
And I think it really lines up with what we're talking about relating to our
23:35
thoughts versus our feelings.
23:37
If you watch a courtroom drama, I really love courtroom dramas.
23:41
You have witnesses who are supposed to state only what they saw, the observations.
23:45
But then you have lawyers who are making arguments about what those observations
23:48
mean. Those are the judgments.
23:49
But in real life, we tend to mix these together all the time,
23:52
especially in emotional situations.
23:54
Let me lay this out, how differently a witness and a lawyer would handle the
23:57
same situation And then I think you'll see how, I think we act more like lawyers
24:01
than witnesses in our own personal lives. So imagine a car accident case.
24:05
And here's how a witness testimony might go. The witness might say the red car
24:08
was stopped at the light.
24:09
The blue car was moving at approximately 30 miles an hour.
24:12
Then there would be objection state to the qualities of why he can name how
24:16
fast the car is going. And then we would strike that from the record.
24:18
But the blue car was moving.
24:19
The blue car hit the back of the red car at 215.
24:23
Now, here's a lawyer, how they might interpret those same facts.
24:26
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the driver of the blue car then was clearly
24:28
being reckless and negligent.
24:29
It was obvious that they weren't paying attention and they didn't care about the safety of others.
24:33
So do you see the difference? The witness just stated what they saw, observable facts.
24:37
The lawyer added meaning, interpretation, and judgment to those facts to try
24:40
to coerce the jury to come up with the same meaning that they had.
24:44
So now let's put this into a real relationship scenario. So let's say your partner
24:47
comes home from work and they put their phone on the counter and they head straight
24:49
to their bedroom without saying hi.
24:51
They may have to go to the bathroom. I might add that part, but here's how most
24:55
of us naturally process this.
24:56
What actually happened? The witness statement, your honor, my partner came home
24:59
at 6 PM, placed their phone on the kitchen counter and walked into the bedroom
25:02
without speaking. Okay. Then here comes the attorney.
25:06
They're obviously mad at me. They're being passive aggressive.
25:08
They don't care about how their behavior affects me. They're punishing me for
25:11
our argument this morning.
25:13
Can you see how quickly that we jumped in from observation to judgment,
25:15
but we become like lawyers building a whole case about someone's intentions
25:19
and character based on just a few observable actions.
25:23
Do we possibly know that they first learned about dried apricots earlier that day?
25:28
Very true story. I did not know that each one of them was basically like an entire apricot.
25:32
And after they ate half a bag, were in insane gastrointestinal pain.
25:37
No, that would have been nice to know.
25:39
But a healthier approach would be to stay in this witness mode first.
25:42
Say, what happened? Hey, I noticed you came home. You went straight to the bedroom
25:44
without our usual greeting.
25:46
And maybe share the genuine feelings created. Yeah, I felt a little hurt and confused.
25:49
But then we get curious instead of making a case. I'm wondering if something
25:52
happened today that's on your mind.
25:54
Now, as soon as they're calling from behind the bathroom door saying,
25:57
I ate half a bag of dried apricots for the first time in my life,
26:00
then maybe we're going to laugh hard, like theoretically my wife did,
26:04
and then leave me to my own for the rest of the evening.
26:07
I think this is really powerful because when we stay in this witness mode,
26:10
now we leave room for understanding instead of just jumping to convict somebody
26:14
of emotional crimes they might not even know that they're being charged with.
26:16
And let me go back to an earlier example. I feel like you don't care because
26:20
when we break this down, there's actually no observation here at all. It's just judgment.
26:23
What's the observable behavior that led to this conclusion? Maybe it's that
26:26
somebody didn't respond to text messages for a couple of days or for a couple
26:29
of hours or they were looking at their phone during a conversation.
26:32
Those are the actual observations. And here's where I think it gets really interesting,
26:35
because when we separate the observation from the judgment, it really does naturally
26:38
open up the door for curiosity.
26:40
Another real example, instead of I feel like you don't care about our friendship
26:43
anymore, we could say, hey, notice that you've declined my last couple of invitations
26:46
to get together. And I feel sad and I'm kind of worried.
26:49
Help me understand what's been going on for you. Take me on your train of thought.
26:53
So hopefully you can see the difference or what happened there,
26:54
because by separating the observation, declining the invitations to do something
26:58
from the judgment, not caring about the friendship, we create space.
27:01
And that space is where genuine curiosity about the other person's experience comes in.
27:06
Maybe they've been dealing with depression or work or stress or family issues,
27:09
and we don't know anything about it.
27:11
But now we've just put them on the defensive and they have to defend what we
27:14
think that they're doing.
27:15
Here's another example from a workplace setting. So instead of,
27:18
I feel like you're undermining me in meetings.
27:20
Somebody can say, I noticed that today you interrupted me while I was presenting
27:24
a couple of times and that I felt frustrated and I was kind of embarrassed.
27:27
So I'm curious about your perspective on our communication during the meetings.
27:31
This is a powerful transformation because we state what actually happened,
27:34
the interruptions. We share a genuine emotional experience, frustrated, embarrassed.
27:39
And then we open the door for dialogue rather than demanding defense.
27:42
Now, is the other person always going to be able to self-confront?
27:45
And this is a you thing in a good way. This is helping you become the best version of you.
27:50
And then we're making this invitation now of curiosity to somebody else that
27:53
they might be able to self-confront or recognize their role in that as well.
27:57
Or by being that curious, maybe they will have empathy and understanding and
28:00
they might have some data that will help me understand why they showed up the way they did.
28:04
And what's really important is that we're putting this burden on others to manage
28:09
our emotions or to explain things in a way that we will feel better when that
28:12
person might've been just minding their own business when they're hit by a judgment.
28:15
So when we say, I don't feel like you care, we're essentially saying it is your
28:19
job to prove your caring in exactly the way that I've predetermined it's acceptable.
28:23
Even though most likely when somebody's doing that, they're not exactly sure.
28:28
They don't feel very connected.
28:29
So, I feel like you don't care, but I'm not sure how I feel. So, start dancing.
28:33
Let's see what you can do to make me feel better. And if you don't make me feel
28:36
better about my observation and judgment of you, then I will most likely say
28:40
that you don't really care about me and something's wrong with me. I'm unlovable.
28:44
You're handing somebody a test without telling them what's going on and what's
28:48
going to be on it and why they're even being tested. And then you get really
28:50
upset when they don't pass the test.
28:52
But when we separate observation from judgment, now we're taking responsibility
28:55
for our own emotional experience. But we're also staying open to understanding
28:59
the other person's reality.
29:00
It's this difference between I feel like you're being selfish with your time.
29:04
That's a judgment that demands defense versus, hey, so when you spend most evenings
29:09
just playing games while I'm doing the household chores, I feel lonely and I feel overwhelmed.
29:14
So I'm curious about how you see our division of time and responsibilities.
29:18
There is an observation plus a feeling plus an invitation to understand.
29:22
Back to Marshall Rosenberg, that's an approach that creates what he calls a
29:27
connection request rather than a judgment attack.
29:29
And it's vulnerable because we're sharing our true feelings,
29:31
but it's also really powerful because we're not just making the other person
29:34
responsible for our feelings.
29:37
And before we move on from this point, I've been waiting for a long time to tell the taco story.
29:42
All names have been changed to protect the innocent and the guilty and the immature and and and.
29:46
But I think this illustrates several things. So get your relationship playing
29:49
cards out because I don't think this is too confusing, but the names become somewhat important.
29:55
So Mike, we'll go back to Mike and Sarah. Mike and Sarah are hosting Tom and
29:58
Jenny for a game night at their house.
30:00
Mike goes out to pick up Mexican food for everybody. I feel like I'm doing a
30:03
story problem. If Mike buys six tacos and they're two for $4,
30:07
how many, but it's not that.
30:09
But Mike went out to pick up Mexican food for everybody. But when he got back
30:12
to the house, he realized he forgot to get tacos for Tom.
30:15
So the people in the kitchen, Mike, Tom, and Ginny are there and Mike realizes
30:20
his mistake. And Mike immediately apologizes.
30:22
And as it turns out, both Mike and Tom's wife, Ginny, each have an extra taco
30:26
and whatever combination that they got.
30:29
So they offer theirs to Tom. Everybody's happy. Problem solved.
30:32
Tom has two tacos and they happen to get a lot of chips and salsa,
30:35
which they all love. And they're ready to move on.
30:37
So then Sarah walks in from putting their baby to sleep and she overhears Mike
30:40
saying, Hey, I really am sorry. I can't even believe I forgot it.
30:43
And Sarah says, forgot what?
30:44
And Mike explains, oh, to get him tacos. I totally spaced it.
30:47
And then that's when something really interesting happens. Sarah then immediately
30:50
jumps in with, I am so sorry. That is so bad. I'll go get you some right now.
30:53
And Mike tries to reassure her by saying, oh, it's okay. We figured it out.
30:57
But Sarah persists. No, I feel so bad. I can't believe that you don't have all
31:00
the tacos that you wanted.
31:02
So resetting the stage, you got Mike and Sarah, the hosts. Mike forgot the tacos.
31:06
Tom and Ginny guess Tom was the one without tacos.
31:09
And Mike and Ginny give up a taco to Tom.
31:12
Tom now has tacos and delicious chips and salsa.
31:15
But when Sarah walks in and hears about the forgotten tacos,
31:19
she encounters a situation in
31:21
which her husband, Mike, is responding differently than his usual pattern.
31:25
Because historically, Mike might have engaged in what I can only call self-flagellation,
31:29
excessive self-criticism, going right into shame and excessive apology.
31:33
I am so sorry, you guys. That's on me. I'm so dumb. I can't believe I did that.
31:38
And that's where it would be a situation where then Mike is needing somebody
31:42
else to tell him it's okay.
31:43
But Mike's been going to therapy. He's developed a healthier response,
31:46
acknowledging the mistake, knowing that he's a human being. He forgets tacos.
31:49
That was the first time it had ever been him in that moment.
31:51
Check that out. He forgot the tacos.
31:53
But he solved the problem and he moved forward with self-compassion and he took
31:57
ownership and accountability. So, here's where it gets interesting.
31:59
Sarah's reaction, I am so sorry. That is so bad. I'll go get you some more tacos right now.
32:04
It isn't actually about Tom's tacos anymore because those are already taken care of.
32:08
Her reaction is about her discomfort with Mike's new, healthier response pattern.
32:13
And it's like a dance where one partner has learned new steps,
32:16
but the other partner is still moving to this old rhythm.
32:18
So when Sarah says, I just feel so bad, she's actually doing several things.
32:22
One, she's expressing the level of remorse that she believes Mike should be showing.
32:27
He's not showing enough remorse. She thinks that means that he doesn't care.
32:31
She's trying to maintain the familiar dynamic where mistakes lead to extensive
32:35
apologizing and somebody making sure that they know how bad the person feels about their mistake.
32:42
And she's inadvertently communicating to Mike that his level of response,
32:46
that's not enough. He is going to feel like he is in trouble because he is being human.
32:51
And it connects back to the earlier discussion about separating observations
32:54
from judgments, Because in this scenario, Sarah has made an observation.
32:58
Mike forgot the tacos and he only apologized one time.
33:01
Her judgment, his response wasn't remorseful enough to match the severity of the mistake.
33:05
And I think the really fascinating part is how this just creates this no-win situation for Mike.
33:10
Because if he maintains this healthier response, Sarah now is going to view him as uncaring.
33:15
But if he reverts to his old pattern of excessive self-criticism to make Sarah
33:18
comfortable, now he's undermined his own therapeutic progress.
33:21
He's started to go into a little bit of self-betrayal because it's not that
33:26
he's not sorry that happened.
33:27
He is disappointed that that happened.
33:30
And he is going to make a mental note to try to be more present when he makes
33:35
orders in the future, but he's also given himself compassion and grace and it
33:39
feels a lot better and he's able to stay far more present in the moment.
33:43
You can almost think of it like a thermostat because Sarah is used to Mike's
33:45
emotional temperature being set at very, very high remorse when he makes mistakes.
33:50
And when he sets it at a more reasonable, appropriate acknowledgement.
33:53
She tries to turn it up herself. She wants that heat to rise herself.
33:57
Now, I don't think she's doing it consciously. It's a reaction to the discomfort
34:00
of change, even when that change is healthy.
34:03
And this pattern shows up so often in therapy. When one partner starts developing
34:07
healthier responses, the other partner might actually work to pull them back
34:10
into the old and healthy patterns because those patterns,
34:14
even though they were dysfunctional, feel familiar and therefore safer.
34:18
This goes back to, it's important to be okay as you are, to know that I'm a
34:23
human and this is the first time I'm going through life. and the more that I
34:26
can recognize my emotions, my feelings, then they are trying to communicate something to me.
34:31
I do feel bad that I forgot these tacos.
34:33
Okay, so now's my chance to heal that. How can I heal it? By taking ownership
34:37
and accountability and apologizing.
34:39
But that's the mature way to handle this. The little kid version then is that
34:43
shame to beat myself up until somebody then finally says, it's okay.
34:46
It's all right. I think you've done a good enough job of showing me how disappointed
34:50
you are. Now I feel better about that.
34:53
And a couple more reasons why I think that this can be such a difficult thing.
34:56
Another one is that society, I think, just often rewards logical thinking far
35:00
more than emotional expression.
35:02
Because many people, especially in professional settings, worry that they will
35:05
seem weak if they then start talking about their actual feelings.
35:09
And I think a good way to show this is think about how most of us learned to
35:12
handle mistakes when we were growing up.
35:14
We often saw adults being really harsh with themselves when they messed up,
35:16
or we saw you need to be tough on yourself, that that was the only way to improve.
35:20
We developed this internal drill sergeant who believes that criticism and self-judgment
35:24
are the only ways to stay disciplined and achieve our goals.
35:27
But here's what's really happening in our brains. When we make a mistake or
35:30
we feel something's wrong with us, yeah, our threat response system activates.
35:34
That fight or flight response kicks in. And our brain, being that don't get
35:37
killed device, that it goes into protection mode.
35:40
But instead of protecting us from physical danger, it's trying to protect us
35:42
from social rejection or failure.
35:44
But the fascinating thing is that many people have learned to respond to this
35:47
threat by becoming their own worst critic, their own internal drill sergeant that is not nice.
35:53
Go back to a work scenario. Somebody makes a mistake at work.
35:55
They forget to send an important email. Now, their immediate response might
35:58
be, and they may say this audibly, man, I'm so stupid. I can't believe I messed this one up.
36:02
And then they're thinking internally, I got to be harder on myself to make sure
36:04
this never happens again, because they believe that self-criticism motivates
36:08
them to do better. But this is not true.
36:10
Our brains can actually tell the difference between criticism from others and
36:13
then criticism from ourselves.
36:14
So our bodies are going to release that same stress hormone as if we were being
36:17
criticized by somebody else.
36:18
So it's like we're constantly keeping ourselves in this low level state of fight or flight.
36:23
And a lot of people have this deeply ingrained belief that goes something like
36:26
this. If I'm kind to myself and I mess up, I will become lazy.
36:29
I'll become complacent.
36:30
And so they think that self-compassion is like this warm bath that will dissolve
36:34
all their motivation and discipline away.
36:36
They might say that if I'm not hard on myself, how will I ever improve?
36:39
But what's really fascinating is how this connects to a lot of cultural messages that we receive.
36:44
So in a lot of societies, especially Western culture, we celebrate toughness. We celebrate grit.
36:49
We've somehow equated being hard on ourselves with being strong and showing
36:52
ourselves kindness with being weak.
36:54
And it's like we're afraid that if we offer ourselves the same compassion we'd
36:57
offer a good friend, then suddenly we'll lose all of our drive and ambition.
37:00
But here is the very powerful truth that research has shown us.
37:04
Self-compassion actually makes us stronger and it makes us more resilient.
37:07
Because when we treat ourselves with kindness after a mistake,
37:10
after a failure, we're actually more likely to get back up and try again.
37:13
It's like the difference between having a coach who screams and belittles you
37:16
versus the one who says, hey, that didn't work out. Let's figure out why and
37:19
let's try a different approach.
37:21
You need to start becoming your own coach.
37:23
Think about how a kid learns to walk. They fall down countless times,
37:26
but they don't berate themselves for being bad at walking.
37:30
And hopefully they don't have a parent that's doing that. They just keep getting
37:33
up and trying again, getting up and trying again.
37:34
But somewhere along the way, a lot of us lost that natural ability to be gentle
37:38
with ourselves while still moving forward.
37:40
Yeah, we might get a few scrapes, but then that's to be expected.
37:43
And we need to learn to accept the fact that they will hurt as well.
37:46
Of course, that's part of that human experience. And one more.
37:48
I think people have learned to use I feel as a softer way to express opinions
37:53
because I think it sounds less aggressive than I think or I believe.
37:57
And I thought about a couple of examples of this. So imagine a couple having
38:01
this conversation. So let's say partner A says, I feel like you never help around the house.
38:05
Partner B, well, I feel like you're being unfair. Tip for tat.
38:08
See it all the time. What's really happening here? Partner A's actual thoughts
38:11
and feelings might be the thought.
38:12
I think the housework distribution is uneven. The feeling, I feel frustrated and unappreciated.
38:17
Partner B's actual thoughts and feelings, thought.
38:20
I think this criticism isn't accurate. And feeling, I feel defensive. I feel misunderstood.
38:25
And I hope that that resonates because if it does, guess what?
38:28
You're a human. You're not broken.
38:30
You're a human being. And these skills do not come from the factory.
38:32
As a matter of fact, if you lean into your factory settings,
38:35
often they will have you slowly but surely continuing down the what's wrong
38:38
with me train until you have absolutely isolated yourself either into a prison
38:43
of your own mind or on a journey for just endless validation.
38:46
And I hate to say it, but we probably all know those people who seem to constantly
38:50
be looking for others to tell them that what they're wearing is okay or what
38:53
they look like is okay or what they said was okay.
38:55
And then the unfortunate part about that is now if somebody doesn't like what
38:58
they said, they actually get to blame you.
38:59
Well, you told me to say that or you said it would be okay if I said that.
39:02
You were asking me for advice about you and your situation. And I'm thinking
39:06
of things through my own life experience, my own lens.
39:09
So while advice can be wonderful and amazing, it's simply that's advice.
39:13
This life is a you thing and you will figure it out if you are open and willing
39:17
to feel the feelings and admit that you don't know what you don't know and lean
39:22
into that discomfort and lean into that uncertainty.
39:24
Absolutely make a plan A and go for it. But learn the concept of psychological
39:28
flexibility because planning for A is wonderful, but it's going to head you
39:32
down the path where you may run into plans B, C, D, don't even get me started about plan E.
39:37
I think I'm a walking living example of plan F or G or P or Q,
39:41
because thank goodness I didn't make it past interview three at Apple when I
39:45
was interviewing for this marketing position.
39:46
I mean, come on, 20 years ago, director level position at Apple when their stock
39:51
options were low and the stock price was low.
39:53
Apple's currently trading at, I don't know, carry the ones.
39:58
Yeah anyway who wants to be a multi-millionaire right guys.
40:04
I'm back. I just needed to mentally go curl up in the fetal position for just
40:07
a second. But where was I?
40:08
So yeah, I'm very glad I didn't get that position for real though.
40:12
Coming out of the computer industry, I interviewed to be a pharmaceutical sales
40:15
rep, a financial planner, a guy who writes up documents for construction people
40:18
who were being taken advantage of by big companies.
40:20
Oh my gosh, I'm glad that plan A, B, C, and D didn't work.
40:25
But this tangent was brought to you by the letter H for human because you are one.
40:30
And this life is a great big old ball of mystery and it's time to embrace it.
40:33
And a big part of that is learning to embrace your feelings because they are here for a reason.
40:37
They're your body's internal compass. They will communicate messages to you
40:40
and you can have a good relationship with them and you don't have to follow
40:43
all of them, but let them be your muse. Let them be your guide.
40:46
I think that you'll be pleasantly surprised when you, at the very least,
40:50
begin to acknowledge when you are thinking something versus when you are feeling something.
40:53
And when you think something, well, how do you feel about that?
40:56
Check that out. So what have we learned today? I think learning to separate
41:00
thoughts from feelings isn't about fixing something that's wrong because you're not broken.
41:05
You're human. It's about developing a new skill that can help us understand
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ourselves and communicate better with others. I feel excited about sharing this
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information with you. I feel hopeful.
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I also feel a tiny bit hungry because it's early in the morning,
41:15
so I think I'll call it a wrap, but I think this went well and I feel hope for the future.
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Thanks, everybody. If you would like to share your thoughts about today's episode
41:23
or share your feelings about it as well, please do so by visiting my brand new
41:26
website at TonyOverbay.com,
41:28
sign up for the newsletter, go to the contact form, let me know what you think
41:30
about what you heard today and visit my brand new Patreon at patreon.com slash virtual couch.
41:35
And there will be a lot of good additional content coming there soon.
41:38
And if you're listening to this later, well, it's probably already there.
41:40
So taking us out per usual is the wonderful, the talented Aurora Florence with
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a song that makes me truly feel happy.
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Music.