Latest / Sacrilegious Discourse - Bible Study for Atheists / Cognitive Dissonance, Cults, and Cowboy Delusions

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Cognitive Dissonance, Cults, and Cowboy Delusions · Sacrilegious Discourse - Bible Study for Atheists

0:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Husband!
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[SPEAKER_01]: Wife!
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[SPEAKER_01]: Do you even have a clue what we're doing on this beautiful spring night?
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[SPEAKER_00]: We're doing a podcast, I'm pretty sure.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We are.
0:11
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a live one.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's why I sing it the way I did.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's on, we're on Discord right now.
0:16
[SPEAKER_01]: We are.
0:17
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you should be here.
0:19
[SPEAKER_00]: You should have been here too already.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's too late for you.
0:21
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's censored not here unless you are here.
0:24
[SPEAKER_00]: You should come to the next one.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Which is always on Tuesday nights at 10 p.m. Eastern on Discord.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The link's always in the show notes.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So go there and click on it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You should.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And then join us and be here.
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[SPEAKER_01]: 10 p.m. Eastern with us.
0:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, right.
0:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, anyway, but we're doing a podcast.
0:40
[SPEAKER_00]: We are.
0:40
[SPEAKER_00]: We are.
0:41
[SPEAKER_00]: So what are we doing on the podcast?
0:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I'm going to talk about the Dallas Cowboys.
0:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, oh, um, I spy everybody.
0:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And how they should always win because I love them.
0:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And, um, yeah, and colds and cognitive dissonance.
1:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
1:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm going to.
1:05
[SPEAKER_00]: The cowboys are going to love this mix.
1:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I love the cowboys.
1:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what you're talking about.
1:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I grow up on the跟大家 Dallas Cowboys.
1:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to, I don't mean to disappoint any fans of that great team.
1:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.
1:21
[SPEAKER_00]: And you guys even had pet names for the players.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't.
1:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, your family did.
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[SPEAKER_00]: They did.
1:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like Troy Boy or whatever, didn't they like call like something called Troy.
1:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but if you didn't give a shit about the team, you didn't call
1:35
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, so like you guys had your little thing wasn't just me and my mom and dad that did that way everybody called Troy eight men Troy boy wasn't just us whatever you would ever I'm just saying I loved Michael Irving personally He ran like like a man who danced ballet
1:55
[SPEAKER_01]: in a spare time, his running was gorgeous.
1:59
[SPEAKER_01]: But we're not here to talk about football for reals.
2:02
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, no.
2:03
[SPEAKER_00]: We're just going to, we're going to get glazed through the, yeah, it's going to be a bit about that.
2:07
[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be a bit of a stuff where we're talking about.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to tie it all together brilliantly.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's going to be a bit disneyed.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Brilliant story.
2:13
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it calls.
2:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
2:15
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
2:15
[SPEAKER_00]: You ready to do this?
2:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, it's Buckham.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Let's do it.
2:18
[SPEAKER_01]: OK, OK.
2:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Sponge, go team sports.
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[SPEAKER_01]: OK, are you ready?
2:29
[SPEAKER_05]: I'm ready.
2:30
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to tell you a story about the Dallas Calboy.
2:32
[SPEAKER_05]: OK, thank you.
2:33
[SPEAKER_01]: So this should have been, honestly, a clue early on that I might have had autism, which there's a whole different conversation about that that we're going to talk about with regard to cognitive dissonance and facts and science and things, but we'll get there in a minute.
2:54
[SPEAKER_01]: So when I was young, my family loved the fucking Dallas cowboys, okay?
3:00
[SPEAKER_01]: We would watch the game every week that it came on.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I think it was like, was that Sunday nights?
3:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember now.
3:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Generally, generally, it was going to be Sunday.
3:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Sunday?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Not necessarily Sunday night, but Sunday.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
3:12
[SPEAKER_01]: So that is a thing that we did.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like I mean we got me and my sister got Dallas cowboy pajamas for Christmas one year.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's what I'm I'm saying we were into it.
3:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember when I was about 12, I started trying to really pay attention because I noticed the boys all like football, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I was like, I'm gonna really try to pay attention to this.
3:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And learn the footballs.
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[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah, I gotta know what's going on there.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like, there's sitting down with your dad and pretending you like it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then there's actually like the weight which team is ours?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We love the Dallas Cowboys, which ones are those?
3:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And are we, and what are they doing right now?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, what's happening?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, right, like, oh, yeah, my team's on the field.
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[SPEAKER_01]: What offense defense?
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[SPEAKER_01]: What is the difference?
4:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Should this what?
4:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So there's learning all of it, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so then I can remember when I was 12, I asked my dad if our team was likely to win.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And he was like, oh, yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, no, no, like, I'm asking for real.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like outside of, we like them.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like, of course, we like it because the answer was always yes.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They were always obviously we want them to win.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's a no greater.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But like, how do they really stand?
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, are they actually going to win?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like, like, what's what's the, you know, what do we have to, like, gauge here?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what's happening right?
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[SPEAKER_05]: Right, right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He was like, no, no, we're going to win.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, okay, so can you break that down for me?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And like, I was like trying to like, I didn't have the vocabulary to ask what are the statistics?
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[SPEAKER_01]: What are the two teams like?
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[SPEAKER_01]: The going against who are we playing?
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[SPEAKER_00]: How's there?
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[SPEAKER_01]: How do they match up?
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[SPEAKER_01]: How far are we in the season?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Are we in free season?
5:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like what is happening?
5:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't really know about this football scoring thing but I'm really trying here, right?
5:13
[SPEAKER_01]: But I didn't have the vocabulary to ask can you pull your head out of your fucking fan asked for a minute and just be a normal guy like talking math and figures at me, right?
5:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And wait, that's a normal guy talking math and figures.
5:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't fucking know, I don't fucking know, like I just didn't want him to be super Uber fan.
5:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I just want him to be a normal person, talking about normal thing.
5:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I thought we talked about sports and spit a lot.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't fucking know what you're talking about.
5:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, I just wanted to know the truth.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to know objectively.
5:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to know the facts of the case, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And like it mattered to me very much.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it mattered that I couldn't get an answer from him.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like that really,
6:01
[SPEAKER_01]: A legitimate, a legitimate trustworthy, reliable answer that meant something other than a love the boys.
6:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, love the boys.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Of course they're going to win.
6:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that's not what I'm out.
6:14
[SPEAKER_01]: You're answering a question that I'm not asking.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Can you please answer the question that I'm trying to ask?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then I feel like as a grown-ass fucking adult that you probably know what I'm trying to ask.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like,
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[SPEAKER_01]: Unless you're stupid, are you stupid?
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think you're stupid that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think my dad is stupid.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He just like he literally could not comprehend that I wanted an objective records based fact based answer.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that is how
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[SPEAKER_01]: That is how I think about cognitive dissonance and cults, because it's not being able to take, I want my team to win away from, like separate it from my team might not win because of these factors that play into it, right?
7:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And that feels a lot like how politics are right now.
7:15
[SPEAKER_01]: with the whole, um, I don't really care about how these murders went down so much as that, and I'm talking about the ice murders, of course, in, in, in, in, pretty and good and in the others that preceded and and all the ones since that we just haven't even seen because there's probably just so many.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and anyway, these are the white people that we know about.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like, let's just put that out there too.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I just feel like people can look at the same video and
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[SPEAKER_01]: Get what they want out of it because it would be so jarring to their personality, to be able to, to be able to admit, Oh, fuck me, I'm back the wrong fucking football team.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, let's put them back.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Let's do it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't say that the right.
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[SPEAKER_00]: There were a lot of people during the shootings that saw the video from different perspectives, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: They saw
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[SPEAKER_00]: a terrorist as opposed to someone who got murdered.
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[SPEAKER_00]: No, okay.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And they watched the same videos that we watched.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so what they saw was that man drew his gun.
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[SPEAKER_00]: He didn't see that, but they didn't see it.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But they believe that they did.
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[SPEAKER_00]: True.
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[SPEAKER_01]: No, they believe that they, like if you asked them, did you see,
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[SPEAKER_01]: did you see him draw his gun they was like look at and say yeah that's what's in his hand right there they believe that's what they're seeing because they wanted to real bad right that's cognitive dissonance right and there was even somebody in the that like higher up that said that he had a cell phone shape gun in his hand see and I had something like that and there was something they got that blue my fucking mind I was like are you kidding me right now
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, that's my intro to this.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I love the Dallas Cowboys, so that means they always win.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like, somehow that math works, right?
9:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I love them, so they always win because they have to win, because I love them.
9:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And my personality is wrapped up in this.
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[SPEAKER_06]: Right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: So cognitive dissonance is the psychological discomfort people feel when their beliefs actions or evidence like actual fucking facts conflict with each other.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that is what my dad was experiencing when I was asking him to tell me, what are the actual fucking statistics of the Dallas Cowboys?
9:47
[SPEAKER_01]: He could not fathom that they might lose.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He could not fathom that
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[SPEAKER_01]: There was a record that might say, hmm, actually it's probably not good for them this time.
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[SPEAKER_01]: There's stacked up against a really solid team and a quarterback is out and like all these reasons are what the fuck ever.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Right, right, rational thought.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Right, like that when people are very passionate about things like sports or about politics or about religion, their ability to reason,
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[SPEAKER_00]: reason out than a rational response to something is definitely skewed because of their beliefs.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right, and this isn't just something that happened like when I was a kid, like we have gone over to watch football games occasionally with my parents, and they are still like that to this day, like if you watch a football game with them, the whole way through the game.
10:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Every single time the ref call makes a call against the cowboys, it's cheating, it's not there, it's, you know, they're they're on purpose against the cowboys.
10:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And every time something happens that the rats don't call and my parents feel like they should have, that's just more proof that everybody's against the cowboys.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Everybody knows.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's like terrible.
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[SPEAKER_00]: That's the Bible.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Like I mean, you pick out what you want the message to be and you make that the message, you see whatever you want to see.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that becomes what the truth is.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it's it's even worse than that though because it's not just my team is awesome and my team can't lose and my team always wins and if they don't there's a reason and it's because the rest are cheaters right it's even worse like when I was a kid.
11:41
[SPEAKER_01]: If the other team made an objectively, unarguably awesome catch that was just like, beautiful, like a piece of art that even dumbed on me could see was like, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like, he could go, oh, do away, like, fuck, that was fucking awesome, right?
12:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, there's no getting around it.
12:04
[SPEAKER_01]: You see how fucking awesome it is?
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[SPEAKER_01]: If I was like, damn, that was brilliant, like, I know we're not sharing for that team, but holy moly, like the whole room would go silent and my dad would glare at me.
12:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And there would just be like, it got to where there was just this understanding, like, you are not allowed to even notice much less praise if the other team does something objectively
12:35
[SPEAKER_01]: good.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that to me is even worse than my team can't lose.
12:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Not only can't my team lose, not only are the roughs cheating to make sure that my team
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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, has it the most rough and so if they if they do end up winning, it's by overcoming the cheating.
12:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, not only that, but the other team, they're so evil and nasty and bad that anything that good that they do is probably just lock or fluke or like not only that, but you even being his daughter.
13:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, just for thinking something about that team was good.
13:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
13:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not that like I got grounded or you definitely felt consternation.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You feel judged.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You felt, you know, there was a reason you did not do the right thing in that moment.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's not really, yes, you know, there was that social negativity.
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[SPEAKER_01]: you know, that that understanding that I just broke a boundary that I didn't understand, it was not spelled out to me and, you know, as somebody with autism, I understand now that I do need those things spelled out and so I did it like over and over and over again, I fucked up and I broke all the social taboos because nobody ever spelled them out.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I couldn't understand like, why would you be, like, why would you be clarinet?
14:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, why would you be upset?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like, that doesn't make sense.
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[SPEAKER_01]: No, that objectively wasn't good catch.
14:09
[SPEAKER_05]: Right.
14:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just admiring the art.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like, are we not here to enjoy football?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't understand.
14:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even like football.
14:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I feel like there are levels of fanaticism, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And it's kind of like the same levels that you would give to people who are ultra-religious versus like not, you know, it's that all in or nothing mentality, right?
14:30
[SPEAKER_00]: And there are just certain people who are all in on certain things.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And there's no dissuading them from those opinions.
14:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
14:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Like no way.
14:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I'm going to talk about that in a second too, so when people experience cognitive dissonance, they are very motivated to resolve that tension, even if it means lying to others, and even if it means lying to themselves.
14:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, and I'm going to say this too, like part of that because they are so persuasive to themselves, they are also very persuasive to others with regard to how they
15:04
[SPEAKER_00]: pitch these ideas because they they're they're very vocal about how right they are, you know, I'm not saying they're there anymore correct, but that can be both good and bad.
15:16
[SPEAKER_01]: It definitely depends on the audience, because I mean, I was just as passionate about, you know, facts, and me being passionate about XYZ, but those are not contradictory ideas.
15:33
[SPEAKER_00]: These are people that hold contradictory ideas in their head and are trying to persuade people if these two contradictory ideas make sense.
15:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, that's true.
15:40
[SPEAKER_01]: So that is true.
15:42
[SPEAKER_01]: So we talked about football as an everyday example of dissonance, but there's also things like somebody who is like a solid smoker, like two packs a day, but is a doctor and will literally tell people,
16:01
[SPEAKER_01]: but ice-moked.
16:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
16:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And like there is some cognitive dissonance in that as well.
16:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Now that's not a great example because like there is also addiction in that.
16:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And then probably aware of the downside.
16:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So they're not like super excited about it.
16:17
[SPEAKER_00]: But it just shoes to still do it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They may be choose not to pursue all the routes that they could in getting in fighting the addiction.
16:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
16:27
[SPEAKER_01]: But having said that, I do want to acknowledge that smoking is supposed to be like one of the greatest addictions out there.
16:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Personally, it tests that.
16:38
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
16:38
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
16:38
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
16:38
[SPEAKER_00]: So I don't smoke now.
16:40
[SPEAKER_00]: But
16:41
[SPEAKER_01]: No, but it's been a long hard road.
16:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
16:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
16:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I quit like, what, two years ago now or something like that?
16:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Might have a more than that now.
16:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
16:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
16:52
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, it's, it's not easy.
16:57
[SPEAKER_01]: another one and this one as a person who has some baggage, this one hit close to home.
17:06
[SPEAKER_01]: My partner loves me versus my partner treats me badly or even abuses me.
17:12
[SPEAKER_01]: That is some, not in this relationship.
17:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god, like from my past, like Jesus, I said, back.
17:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, literally husband and wife, you might want to clarify that.
17:23
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.
17:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry.
17:24
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no, not this guy.
17:25
[SPEAKER_01]: This guy's awesome.
17:27
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I'm talking about like, you know, relationships in my past, like it explains some of why I
17:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Women stay like that's always the question why do women stay and some of it is the cognitive dissonance and some of it is like other factors like finances or being trapped by other meat kids career that kind of thing like there's so many different reasons but one of them is
17:55
[SPEAKER_01]: the cognitive dissonance of he loves me or I I deserved it or I caused it or he didn't mean it like that one like really
18:08
[SPEAKER_01]: that one really made me win, sure.
18:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Because there is some cognitive dissonance there.
18:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
18:14
[SPEAKER_01]: The way that the brain resolves is, like remember I said that people are motivated to try to resolve these two opposing thoughts that are happening is by changing the behavior.
18:27
[SPEAKER_01]: changing the belief, adding a justification or just ignoring the conflicting evidence altogether, like denying that that evidence is even there.
18:36
[SPEAKER_06]: Sure.
18:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Which, you know, is what my dad was doing with football, like what are you talking about?
18:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
18:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Cowboys will win.
18:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Period.
18:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, and then, I mean, same thing, like, for young creationists for, for, you know, the belief that the earth is only 6,000 years old.
18:49
[SPEAKER_00]: There's, there's hard physical evidence that shows that the earth is
18:55
[SPEAKER_00]: and they just refuse to accept that as, as facts.
19:00
[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
19:00
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, they, they, they, they've decided that that is not true because of their God because of their Bible and their idea wins because they believe.
19:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
19:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Then that's it.
19:11
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's it.
19:11
[SPEAKER_01]: The end.
19:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
19:14
[SPEAKER_01]: The, the fact of the matter is your brain hates being wrong more than it loves truth.
19:21
[SPEAKER_01]: generally speaking for like humanity as a whole.
19:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
19:25
[SPEAKER_01]: The brain has been wrong more than it loves the truth.
19:29
[SPEAKER_00]: No, it's actually very hard to break that habit of being correct.
19:35
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, like if you, if you think you are right, yeah.
19:38
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a habit, it's a habit of something that you build up your entire life, right?
19:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the indoctrination into thinking that cowboys are the best, or the indoctrination into your young creationist's ideas, or the indoctrination into really anything out there.
19:53
[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
19:54
[SPEAKER_00]: If you build it over the course of a lifetime, you are so right that it's almost impossible to get back to that wrong that is actually right.
20:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it does, like, I can't even imagine, see, okay, so I grew up with the understanding that we were Republican, me, my sister and my parents, we were Republican, that's just the way it was, like, that's everybody's Republican, that's just the way it is anybody who's not Republican is dumb, like, whatever.
20:24
[SPEAKER_01]: right like I didn't know any better.
20:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know I didn't know the difference but I didn't even know what the opposite of Republican was.
20:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, Democrat like I don't I wasn't interested in history, politics, geography, current affairs like I didn't know any of that stuff because I didn't give a shit.
20:42
[SPEAKER_00]: when you were young.
20:43
[SPEAKER_01]: When I was younger.
20:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
20:45
[SPEAKER_01]: So literally I thought I was a Republican because that's what I had always been told.
20:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Kind of like a kid that like comes home from school and says, Mom, what are we a religion?
20:55
[SPEAKER_01]: What religion are we?
20:56
[SPEAKER_07]: Are we?
20:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Are we something?
20:59
[SPEAKER_01]: What are we?
21:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I don't
21:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't even know.
21:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And I know you remember this because we've told this story so many times about how it was when I moved Ohio and had been out on my own for a while and I was working at
21:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, I had just been out in the world enough and learned enough about human rights and equality.
21:28
[SPEAKER_01]: So this was at the end of the year 2000.
21:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I shot an email, like a blind copy so that, you know, this was like before Facebook kind of thing.
21:38
[SPEAKER_01]: So like, I sent an email to all my friends.
21:42
[SPEAKER_01]: like all five million of them, but I had blind copy them so they couldn't see each other's email addresses.
21:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you all remember that was a thing.
21:51
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so cool that you can still do that.
21:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, no one uses email except for work.
21:56
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm explaining this to anybody who's like millennial and younger.
21:59
[SPEAKER_06]: Sure.
22:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, the email basically was like, oh my god, you guys, I think I'm a Democrat.
22:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, almost everybody, either ignored it, or was like, duh, but husband, who at the time was not even my boyfriend, Rob back to me and was like, congratulations.
22:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome to the Dark Side or something to that effect.
22:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And like,
22:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it is hard, but to me, it was exciting to learn new things.
22:32
[SPEAKER_01]: But again, that's more because I'm a little bit different.
22:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm built different.
22:38
[SPEAKER_01]: I care more about facts.
22:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I've never understood the, would you rather be happier?
22:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Would you rather be right?
22:45
[SPEAKER_01]: My answer is that's a false equivalency.
22:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I would rather that we all be right with all the correct information, because then we can all be happy, isn't that what everybody wants?
22:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it doesn't, it does not ever occur to me.
22:57
[SPEAKER_01]: No, some people actually would rather be happy and false.
23:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
23:01
[SPEAKER_01]: They, they literally would rather be happy in their falseness and I don't understand that.
23:06
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just easier.
23:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I know.
23:08
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to.
23:08
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to.
23:08
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to change your entire world view.
23:10
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you don't have to change what you believe your entire life.
23:14
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to.
23:14
[SPEAKER_01]: But I didn't understand that until the last couple years when I got diagnosed with autism that like, oh, I'm different.
23:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I didn't know.
23:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I keep in mind a lot of times by admitting that something is factual and agreeing to go that route to where you
23:34
[SPEAKER_00]: are learning the new fact, you are then breaking away from a culture that is still accepting that old fact, that old non-fact.
23:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're literally losing everything.
23:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, no, you're breaking away from people that are not going to accept the fact you now like facts.
23:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
23:54
[SPEAKER_00]: So it is really hard to make that jump when you don't have a support group that's going to
23:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Take you in immediately.
24:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so no, it's true.
24:03
[SPEAKER_00]: It's definitely true.
24:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, now it's easier if like, you know, your parents were still down and, you know, Texas and then you moved up here and you fell in with a bunch of friends that were, you know, bank those fans.
24:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, then you know it's okay.
24:14
[SPEAKER_00]: You can become a bingles fan.
24:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, because that's just easy.
24:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Like whatever you guys are all bingles fan.
24:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I would be a bingles fan, right?
24:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
24:20
[SPEAKER_01]: If I gave a chance.
24:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
24:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
24:21
[SPEAKER_00]: The same thing goes for a lot of time.
24:24
[SPEAKER_00]: People will change the type of religion that they use, because they're in a different area or grouply fall over there.
24:30
[SPEAKER_01]: I went to this kind of church, but over here, this is where everybody goes.
24:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's just easier.
24:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
24:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
24:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
24:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Every other thing starts.
24:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I think a lot of time it has to with just the ease of social interaction
24:41
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I totally get that.
24:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I've never been that way.
24:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was a real, I open our to understand that I'm the weirdo.
24:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
24:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, and I am, and I get that now.
24:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, there's even a saying, get along to go along, right?
24:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, when and wrong.
24:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, like it's all through our culture, like this idea that it's better to fit in, right?
25:02
[SPEAKER_00]: It's better to be the sheep than it is to be the leader, right?
25:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Because because it's just harder to be it.
25:10
[SPEAKER_00]: If you go against the grain, your life is going to be harder because you have to then answer to everybody to think you're wrong, which is a significant amount of people.
25:19
[SPEAKER_07]: Right, exactly.
25:20
[SPEAKER_00]: A lot of the times, not all the time.
25:23
[SPEAKER_00]: believe certain things, but not, there's also a lot of things that can cause problems, you know?
25:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Not like this.
25:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Not like the, well okay, so the reason that we even got onto this topic, I watched two YouTube videos back to back and I'm going to have you link them because I really feel like they're both relevant to this conversation.
25:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And I didn't realize when I was watching them how complementary they were to each other.
25:54
[SPEAKER_01]: One is from Crash Course, which they're
26:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.
26:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
26:02
[SPEAKER_01]: They're kind of pink and jongering.
26:04
[SPEAKER_01]: The vlog brothers.
26:05
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
26:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Don't forget to be awesome DFTBA.
26:08
[SPEAKER_02]: Right.
26:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, yeah.
26:10
[SPEAKER_01]: So this one is called the secret language of cults and it's by shoot.
26:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me get her name hold on because she's on me.
26:20
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I like I wrote this and then like completely forgot that I would need to scroll down for it.
26:27
[SPEAKER_01]: But she's awesome.
26:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
26:31
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a man to something.
26:33
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a man to something guys.
26:34
[SPEAKER_00]: No.
26:35
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to get there eventually.
26:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know when, but it's coming here soon.
26:40
[SPEAKER_07]: Why are you going to be like that?
26:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just trying to fill space.
26:42
[SPEAKER_00]: So we don't see here for five minutes while you're just scrolling through your phone trying to find this person's name.
26:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't remember.
26:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I know.
26:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And maybe it's not that important.
26:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
26:53
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
26:54
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
26:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it'll be in the show notes, guys.
26:56
[SPEAKER_00]: It's Amanda something.
26:57
[SPEAKER_01]: It's Amanda something in the show notes.
26:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's awesome.
27:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And she watches video because she talks about how her dad broke out of a
27:09
[SPEAKER_01]: synonym, synonym.
27:12
[SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like synonym and synonym.
27:15
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like a cross between those.
27:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And the reason that he was able to get out of that was because he worked in the lab that
27:29
[SPEAKER_01]: They were like really concerned about their people getting infected with other viruses.
27:33
[SPEAKER_01]: So he worked in the science department as a kid or what the fuck ever.
27:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And then decided that he wanted to
27:43
[SPEAKER_01]: go on to college and, you know, pursue the sciences, but it was him working in a science field that got him like asking questions and feeding his curiosity.
27:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And so he did break away like he went to college.
28:03
[SPEAKER_01]: He got a scholarship and I was like bitch by and that's how he left the
28:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, yeah, that's how we left that cold.
28:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Uh, which is, um, I don't even know if I should say this, but I'm scared.
28:14
[SPEAKER_00]: But is it, uh, is it a man to Montel?
28:17
[SPEAKER_01]: It is actually.
28:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
28:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
28:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you, Brady.
28:20
[SPEAKER_01]: No, she, and she wrote, uh, a couple books, um, one is about cold languages.
28:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And another one is called, um, she's a linguist.
28:29
[SPEAKER_01]: So the other one is called, um,
28:32
[SPEAKER_01]: the art of magical thinking or something like that.
28:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's about like that whole like manifestation, like manifesting, putting it out into the universe.
28:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's like, and no thank you.
28:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you.
28:47
[SPEAKER_01]: She's not into magic kind of thing, you know?
28:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, it's a fantastic video on Crash Course.
28:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And you should definitely watch it.
28:57
[SPEAKER_01]: She is like a guest host.
28:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, okay.
29:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, okay.
29:01
[SPEAKER_01]: You were like, that is that.
29:02
[SPEAKER_01]: What?
29:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, I was just trying to how does Amanda and Crash Course.
29:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she's delivering a lecture.
29:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, she's delivering a lecture on this topic on Crash Course.
29:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
29:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, it'll be in the show notes.
29:17
[SPEAKER_01]: So we watch that.
29:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And the other video is by Jessica Stan's Berry.
29:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And this one, you have to get there through the link because she hides the video because I don't know why.
29:31
[SPEAKER_01]: But every time she puts out a political video, it's like she's worried it'll fuck up her brand or something.
29:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Either that or YouTube has decided for her.
29:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, but her name is Jessica Stan's Berry.
29:48
[SPEAKER_01]: how to do stuff on YouTube or how to like use YouTube or how to like make money on YouTube or she does stuff like photography or videography.
30:01
[SPEAKER_01]: She's like a little bit of scatter, like she doesn't have like a solid niche down.
30:06
[SPEAKER_00]: That's an official term, they're scattering.
30:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like me, I'm also scattering.
30:11
[SPEAKER_01]: And so anyway, this particular video was specifically about cognitive dissonance and it's called why people believe lies when the truth is right in front of their eyes or something like that.
30:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And just as a warning, it does cover that pretty shooting.
30:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's what I was going to say.
30:31
[SPEAKER_01]: It specifically covers the pretty shooting and how she was just like,
30:35
[SPEAKER_01]: so shocked.
30:36
[SPEAKER_01]: She was like, it didn't even occur to me that you could watch that video and walk away with any other facts.
30:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
30:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And so she talks about cognitive dissonance in it and it's a really great video.
30:47
[SPEAKER_01]: But having watched it right after I just watched the thing about gold, I was like,
30:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, and then I wanted to talk to you about it, has been about cognitive dissonance and cults, so all how they fit together, and you were like, well, we should do a thing.
31:04
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're doing a thing.
31:06
[SPEAKER_00]: So, I mean, it's very, it's very, it's very, it's very.
31:08
[SPEAKER_00]: It's very, it leads up directly with religion.
31:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, the politics that we always talk about, but when we talk about politics, everything, it all kind of ties into the same idea.
31:20
[SPEAKER_01]: It does, it does.
31:21
[SPEAKER_01]: But not all culture like religious here bad, like it kind of surprised me to hear both of them say this.
31:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, cults can be kind of okayish or whatever.
31:38
[SPEAKER_01]: They're either colds or cold adjacent organizations or like MLMs, like Tupperware can bowls, paper chef jewelry leggings You know all them bitches that selling all that shit.
31:53
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a pyramids game.
31:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I want you to consider bad for the spinning on on bullshit
31:59
[SPEAKER_01]: The reason that these are considered colds will start with the MLM is because they are specifically geared toward a specific audience.
32:11
[SPEAKER_01]: And it is typically your either work from home mom, your housewife, or I didn't realize this until I looked into it, immigrant families who are struggling but have a large family and friend network.
32:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And so these organizations, they're like telling you, don't you want to start your own business and be an entrepreneur and when you sell stuff, you get to keep a cut and then I get to keep a cut of your cut and it's a pyramid scheme, right?
32:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And there was this whole section of how like the more people that you have in your organization under you like the higher and more prestigious your title sounds and you have your own language and all of that right.
33:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And I can remember like way in the early days of Facebook, all of my friends were selling.
33:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I had two friends selling Tupperware.
33:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I had one of those was also selling pampered chef.
33:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I had two other friends, separate from this that were selling candles.
33:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And then there was a couple of bitches that were selling jewelry.
33:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, oh, I didn't even list the makeup like the fucking Avon and the Mary Kay and the Mary Kay is the fancy MLM, but the Avon is for, you know, the everyday one, you know, the more, the more, it less expensive, affordable makeup, right?
33:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the leggings is the most recent one, the fucking leggings.
33:48
[SPEAKER_00]: No, even work is cold.
33:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, oh, no, yeah, I'm not there yet, but yeah, we're just talking about the MLM being a cult.
33:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
33:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're geared towards people who have a need and that they can fulfill the need by telling them this is where you fit.
34:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Like your need is money and friendship, and we can give you both.
34:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
34:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And boom, now you're, now you're part of this organization.
34:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Only it's not an organization.
34:18
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a fucking cult.
34:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, conspiracy movements, obviously, they get very cold tea.
34:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
34:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And you're in on, I mean, yeah.
34:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
34:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, that's actually listed separately from conspiracy movements, because it's so big.
34:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
34:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
34:37
[SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, it is a conspiracy moment.
34:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, back in the back of my day, you know, we still only talk about there's like Ruby Ridge and you know, shit like that.
34:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Wait, I was thinking conspiracy like my brain first went to like big foot and stuff like that and I was like, oh, that's not Colty.
34:55
[SPEAKER_01]: That's just fun.
34:56
[SPEAKER_01]: That's just pure good.
34:57
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, some of some people treated this Colty, like some people, we've got a friend that's very much in the big foot.
35:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Now.
35:05
[SPEAKER_01]: But as he in a club, is he part of an organization that our people are?
35:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, to call it a call, it would have to fit certain criteria.
35:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And there are questions about what those criteria are.
35:16
[SPEAKER_01]: But generally, there's like one solid leader, right?
35:20
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to meet up every so often.
35:22
[SPEAKER_01]: They make a demand from you.
35:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Usually it's money and time.
35:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, this is like, there can be cold-ish behavior or cold-ish beliefs, but to be a cult, the more yes, sounds like a religion is.
35:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, no, no, actually, the more the more you, because I know that you were saying that we were going to be talking about jobs coming up.
35:45
[SPEAKER_00]: But the more, like I've been in my mind, I'm relating it to my jobs, specifically, and like the more you say those things, the more I'm like, yep, that happens, yep, that happens, yep, that happens, like I mean even so far as like, you know, we talk about.
36:02
[SPEAKER_00]: at jobs now.
36:03
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's not just enough to talk about how much money you're going to make.
36:06
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to specify all these different ways in which you're going to make money.
36:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Tears.
36:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, nothing is here like different things you're going to make the money with and then you have to hit those goals to do the things you're going to, you know, and then like it's just why can't it just be about making the money like when when did we stop.
36:23
[SPEAKER_00]: just making money and switch to, now you have to do all these different things too.
36:29
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to be in point to gain favor with the boss, you know, like it's like, yeah.
36:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Can I just fucking show up?
36:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I don't even want to be here.
36:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And now you're asking me to be here enthusiastically and to perform the fucking monkey.
36:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Come on, come on.
36:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there's also like special lingo that only you guys understand.
36:48
[SPEAKER_05]: Yeah.
36:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, I love when you come home talking job lingo and then I'm like, now can you put all of that in English because I don't fucking work there?
36:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know what your goddamn TPS report is or what the fuck ever.
37:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that it's a way of not only making you feel inclusive, but then also like, not you personally, but you, the the the mark, if you will, right.
37:19
[SPEAKER_01]: you you go home and you feel like a little bit superior because you know the secret code words that fucking nobody else knows and it's like yeah it's a fucking medical term you've got damn doctor or whatever it's a fucking legal term you've got damn lawyer or whatever like you're not fucking special it's only it's only special if you're little in group but not only that
37:48
[SPEAKER_00]: it sets your work life separate from your home life, right?
37:51
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not something that your home life can even relate to anymore.
37:55
[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah, yeah.
37:55
[SPEAKER_00]: So it doesn't, like if you talk and business speak when you're at home, yeah.
37:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Then some people would get frustrated and be like, well, I'm just not going to talk to you about this, because you just don't understand.
38:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying you can't understand.
38:07
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't understand.
38:08
[SPEAKER_00]: And then it sets you apart from your family so that you, like it's all,
38:12
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so weird kids.
38:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's regard to how all this stuff works.
38:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah, and John's doing, yeah.
38:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah, yeah.
38:19
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so fucking insidious.
38:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
38:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's grotesque.
38:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And like you'll see it everywhere.
38:25
[SPEAKER_01]: You'll see it fucking everywhere.
38:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's so fucking gross.
38:29
[SPEAKER_01]: um political tribalism is another version of it, and like I don't want to say that, you know, the blue team versus the red team, like, okay, I don't want to be one of those both sighting at people.
38:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to be like both both.
38:47
[SPEAKER_01]: sides both parties are bad.
38:49
[SPEAKER_01]: The end.
38:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Like no, that's actually not the end of the sentence.
38:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, both parties have flaws.
38:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's not pretend that the Democrats are perfect.
38:56
[SPEAKER_01]: They're fucking not.
38:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
38:58
[SPEAKER_01]: But you know who's wearing the Nazi hats right now and you know who's killing people?
39:02
[SPEAKER_01]: It ain't the Democrats.
39:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
39:05
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm a not going to like be blind and say that the Democrats are awesome, but I'm also going to not both sides it.
39:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
39:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I hate that shit.
39:15
[SPEAKER_01]: That that is
39:17
[SPEAKER_06]: Right.
39:17
[SPEAKER_01]: So the most famous example of a doomsday cold study was done in 1954 by social psychologists Leon Festinger, which I just love as name.
39:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
39:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
39:32
[SPEAKER_01]: So researchers infiltrated this UFO cult, okay?
39:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Is this they secretly infiltrated this group?
39:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
39:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And this group believes that the world would end in a flood and that a flying saucer was going to rescue the believers.
39:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Hmm.
39:47
[SPEAKER_05]: Okay.
39:48
[SPEAKER_01]: So members, obviously, they were like, pre-the-fuck out.
39:51
[SPEAKER_01]: So they quit their jobs.
39:53
[SPEAKER_01]: They gave away all their possessions.
39:55
[SPEAKER_01]: They cut off family like true cult, right?
39:57
[SPEAKER_01]: They went full in, okay?
40:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Obviously, the prophecy failed.
40:01
[SPEAKER_01]: There was no flood and the UFOs never came to save them.
40:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
40:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And instead of like being like,
40:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Guess what they did double down.
40:12
[SPEAKER_01]: They double down.
40:13
[SPEAKER_01]: They became even more evangelistic.
40:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
40:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Why?
40:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Because the dissonance was unfucking bearable for them.
40:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Like they had sacrificed everything.
40:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, how do you go back on that?
40:24
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't.
40:24
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't.
40:25
[SPEAKER_01]: So the brain invented a third option our faith saved the world.
40:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what they went with.
40:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
40:31
[SPEAKER_01]: They went with, we believed so hard.
40:34
[SPEAKER_01]: We gave everything away, and that's why the prophecy did not come to pass.
40:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
40:40
[SPEAKER_01]: We moved the world with our faith.
40:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
40:45
[SPEAKER_01]: So that study later became a famous 1956 book called When Prophecy Fails, a social and psychological study of a modern group that predicted the destruction of the world.
41:00
[SPEAKER_01]: It's actually like I look us up as rated 3.8 out of 5 stars on good reads, I'm just saying, I did add it to my TBR because I'm like, I got to read this study.
41:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes as in the case that I just mentioned, field prophecies actually strengthen movements instead of disband them.
41:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Like what just happened?
41:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Because surviving the disconfirmation requires
41:27
[SPEAKER_01]: like hard, right?
41:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Because the doubters leave the true believers remain and then the group becomes even more radical because only the true believers are left.
41:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And they just didn't believe hard enough.
41:40
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why they took off.
41:44
[SPEAKER_01]: So, all right, so there's that, okay?
41:48
[SPEAKER_01]: No, what are you laughing about?
41:50
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm laughing because we've slowly people have peeling off on the podcast tonight and we're down with two people.
41:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, I was typed in the channel.
41:58
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, you guys are the true believers.
41:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, the true believers.
42:01
[SPEAKER_01]: They stuck around to me.
42:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, to me, fair it is already like 1130.
42:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
42:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
42:05
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah.
42:08
[SPEAKER_01]: colds are cognitive dissonance machines.
42:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Like that's literally what they're made to do.
42:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
42:14
[SPEAKER_01]: They are literally structured to amplify that feeling of disease and not disease, disease on ease.
42:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
42:24
[SPEAKER_01]: The discomfort, okay?
42:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And they do this via four methods, okay?
42:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
42:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Four methods.
42:32
[SPEAKER_01]: The first one is
42:33
[SPEAKER_01]: through high cost commitment or some cost fallacy, which I'm going to talk about these more in depth, but let me just tell you what the four are.
42:42
[SPEAKER_06]: Sure.
42:42
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's the high cost commitment,
42:47
[SPEAKER_01]: identity fusion, information control, and prophecy reinterpretation.
42:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
42:56
[SPEAKER_01]: So the first one is the high cost commitment.
43:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, that is also known as the
43:05
[SPEAKER_01]: some cost fallacy.
43:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
43:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Psychologists call this just a vacation effort, the some cost fallacy because it's when people value something more if they have suffered for it.
43:19
[SPEAKER_06]: Sure.
43:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I've already put in so much, I might as well see this through can quit now, right.
43:26
[SPEAKER_01]: So close.
43:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
43:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
43:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Like keep going, you know, I've been certain points in my life and hit a point where I've done so much for something that I'm like, well.
43:38
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm all in now.
43:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you know.
43:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like I'm also going to send you a link to share from this doctor who wrote an article called Recognizing the Sunk Cost Ballicy may help you cut your losses.
43:53
[SPEAKER_01]: So 2023 psychology today article.
43:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And she tells the story in this article about how she had applied for four different colleges.
44:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And she wanted to go to, like, she didn't really care a lot.
44:09
[SPEAKER_01]: She, she wanted to go to college, but didn't really care like much which one.
44:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So she just wanted to go to the one that was the least expensive.
44:16
[SPEAKER_06]: Sure.
44:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, was going to give her the most for the least amount, right?
44:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, she her back from three of them immediately and then like after a few weeks, still had her back from the fourth one.
44:27
[SPEAKER_01]: So, um, she made her judgment on the three that she had gotten, that she had her back from and picked the one that was going to give her the best deal.
44:37
[SPEAKER_01]: They wanted $100 for the, um,
44:41
[SPEAKER_01]: the application or whatever, but it was still the best deal.
44:46
[SPEAKER_01]: So she went ahead and paid the $100.
44:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And then right after that, yeah, I mean, you have to see where this is going right.
44:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Right as soon as she did that, she heard back from the fourth one.
44:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And it offered her a full ride scholarship for all four years living allowance like it was a dream deal.
45:05
[SPEAKER_01]: But she'd already paid the other $100.
45:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And she was just a teen.
45:09
[SPEAKER_01]: She didn't fucking know.
45:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Like she looks back on that and she's like, uh, some cost fallacy like really fucked me there.
45:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, right.
45:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Like obviously the smart answer would have ended just like, well, I guess I lost a hundred dollars.
45:21
[SPEAKER_01]: That was dumb.
45:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, there's even ways to like,
45:24
[SPEAKER_00]: get people to pay small fees up and then keep increasing.
45:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like, well, I've already paid this much.
45:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to keep paying to get this scene through, so there's a lot of ways to manipulate people with that and just keep tying them along.
45:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's so frustrating to know it from the outside and to be able to see it so clearly.
45:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's looking back like it's so fucking obvious and retrospect.
45:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
45:51
[SPEAKER_01]: She said a couple of quotes that I took from that.
45:55
[SPEAKER_01]: We commit the sunk cost fallacy when we focus on past investments rather than future outcomes.
46:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, okay, yeah, that tracks, that tracks.
46:06
[SPEAKER_01]: People will wear clothes they don't like because they paid money for them, even though the money's not coming back.
46:13
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a sunk cost fallacy.
46:14
[SPEAKER_06]: Sure.
46:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, another example she gave, people will stay in unhealthy relationships because they've been together so long so they continue to have even more unhappy years together, which we talked about that.
46:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, that does not, any, any way reflect on me and you, the fact that I brought this up twice doesn't mean anything.
46:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Please don't like jump to any conclusions.
46:38
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not making any sense of husband, me and husband are great, our marriage is fine.
46:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, this one really, really struck on this example she gave a commander during the Vietnam War reported that we couldn't pull troops out because it would mean the soldiers who died had done so in vain.
46:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, right.
46:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
47:00
[SPEAKER_00]: That's crazy.
47:01
[SPEAKER_01]: That is a some cost fallacy on a large grand scale.
47:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
47:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
47:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, summarizing that little section.
47:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Once you make a personal sacrifice, leaving means admitting you destroyed your life for fucking nothing.
47:15
[SPEAKER_01]: For nothing.
47:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Because some of the things that they offer, or that they demand are donations, cutting off family, moving compounds, or public declaration.
47:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and then think about like, I mean, even with religion, right?
47:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you a lot of people tie it, right?
47:35
[SPEAKER_00]: 10% of their earnings or whatever, for tightening.
47:38
[SPEAKER_00]: As this is a pretty standard knife.
47:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Not as standard as it used to be, but it was a pretty standard standard, pretty standard.
47:43
[SPEAKER_00]: So, 10% you've given this institution, 10% of your earnings, because of this guy for years, right?
47:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And in order for you to disavow that whole entity, that whole religion, that whole, that whole religion, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world, that whole world,
48:02
[SPEAKER_01]: you you have to just be okay with all that money and gotten was going towards nothing yeah went towards nothing yeah like uh thank you for paying the electric bill for them all these yeah right um and also you know cutting off family like it goes both ways um if you are
48:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Joining a group, the colt might require you to cut off family.
48:28
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you're leaving the colt, you might be cutting off family that way and leaving them behind.
48:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
48:33
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's a lot of groups that exist now in the United States as large entities like the biggest one that comes to mind is like the, the, the, the Mormons, right?
48:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Like if you leave the Mormons oftentimes
48:52
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't always hold true, but I mean, like there is a sense of your leaving your community if you leave that religion, like you're leaving everything behind you, you know.
49:02
[SPEAKER_01]: So, and if you can't afford to like just move state, you're stuck there, you're stuck in this place where you have literally cut all social ties of the people that you still have to be around on a regular basis, because you can't just move.
49:20
[SPEAKER_01]: That sucks.
49:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's a lot of things that tie people to these groups, these ideas and the cognitive dissonance that is prevalent in all these different things that we've talked about.
49:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
49:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the sunk cost fallacy I didn't realize was like so big.
49:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And I hadn't heard that before, but that makes so much sense.
49:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, so much sense.
49:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
49:42
[SPEAKER_01]: The public declaration one, I don't know if you heard that.
49:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like the last one that I said, it's where you have to announce your faith in front of a bunch of people.
49:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
49:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And so you've already done that and to go back on that publicly.
49:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
49:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
50:00
[SPEAKER_00]: You're now a liar.
50:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
50:02
[SPEAKER_00]: You're now a liar.
50:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
50:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, here's one where that can work in your favor instead of against it, um, if you are embarking on a new challenge, like say a writing challenge, making that announcement.
50:20
[SPEAKER_01]: in like on Facebook or in front of your friends and family.
50:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Help yourself motivate.
50:25
[SPEAKER_01]: It helps self motivate.
50:26
[SPEAKER_01]: It helps other people hold you accountable.
50:28
[SPEAKER_01]: It helps you hold yourself accountable because now you've said it publicly.
50:32
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's the positive.
50:34
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the most hopeful.
50:36
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't, it doesn't always go that way.
50:40
[SPEAKER_01]: If it's something like, hey, so I've decided that I'm joining this call and we believe that the world is ending next week.
50:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, right, which actually I'm team.
50:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I quit my job before I could find out from that lady at my job.
51:00
[SPEAKER_01]: She had told me that next week, which was this past week.
51:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that uh
51:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Trump was going to turn everything off and I had asked her, what does that mean exactly?
51:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
51:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Turn off what?
51:11
[SPEAKER_01]: And she said, I should.
51:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I should.
51:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And she said, well, everything, like the internet, all of it, and I was like, the internet, all of it, like, electricity too, like, I was trying to, you know, take a seriously.
51:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
51:25
[SPEAKER_01]: What else getting turned off?
51:26
[SPEAKER_05]: Why not?
51:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Why is he doing that?
51:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And she said, oh, you'll see.
51:29
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't believe me now.
51:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, I'm here to, if you tell me this is going to happen, I believe you.
51:37
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, what's going on?
51:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's like, Oh, you'll see.
51:40
[SPEAKER_01]: You'll come to me next week.
51:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And he'll be like, Miss so and so told me.
51:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it's always the fucking answer is you'll see.
51:46
[SPEAKER_00]: You'll see.
51:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Wait and find out.
51:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Just wait and find out.
51:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's always so smug and it's like, Oh, because you don't know to you.
51:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
51:52
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, that's, that's obviously the answer that they don't have a fucking glue with
51:57
[SPEAKER_00]: But they can't say that out loud either, but they, but they also want to show their favor to this group by being very sure that whatever this thing is is is is real so yeah yeah yeah so okay that was the first one high cost commitment so.
52:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Some of us tell you, the next one was identity fusion, where your belief literally becomes your identity, and we see this with Christianity in particular, leaving the belief you already kind of mentioned this, means losing your community, losing your meaning, and losing everything about yourself.
52:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you know, you're not just attacking what I think you're attacking who I am.
52:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, we kind of, we kind of have arguments about this sometimes me and you, because like, I have a hard time separating myself from my opinion.
53:01
[SPEAKER_01]: So like, if I'm like showing you a song or a video, and you don't like it, I take a so fucking personal, like, I take it like you're saying you don't like me or that I have bad taste and you're like attacking me.
53:15
[SPEAKER_01]: You do and that's why I'm admitting that publicly that I would I get this one.
53:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I do.
53:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I get it.
53:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I When I say I like something and I share it like I'm extending a piece of me And you're like it's not though.
53:29
[SPEAKER_00]: No, you you literally like wait with being at breath to find out what I say about it and I'm like I don't give a shit
53:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I know it killed me, but I'm aware of that.
53:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we have discussions about it.
53:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Like we're having right now publicly, hey, at least I can admit I suck, you know?
53:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I think that's awesome, personally.
53:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's good.
53:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Life is a clown.
53:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so the third one was through information control.
54:04
[SPEAKER_01]: whoever's leading the call, the leaders, they will make you avoid criticism.
54:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So basically Fox News.
54:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay.
54:13
[SPEAKER_01]: They will dismiss all outsiders, you know, fake news.
54:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And persecution proves we're right.
54:22
[SPEAKER_01]: like they get out ahead of it and say, they're going to say that, um, you know, relying, that's because they're liars.
54:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, of course, you know, we like you're lying and they're like, see, well, that's, that's why, you know, when, when, when pretty, you got shot, right?
54:37
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why they were literally out within minutes of the shooting on social media pitching their, their excuses.
54:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And within the hour, doing press conferences, saying he was a terrorist.
54:47
[SPEAKER_01]: He was encouraging a weapon and he pulled a weapon and was waving it in the officers.
54:53
[SPEAKER_00]: No time at all, get out there and start saying these things because they were trying to get ahead of the message.
54:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's a term, get ahead of the message, right?
55:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Trying to create the narrative by being the first to the punch.
55:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Yep.
55:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And that whole persecution proves we're right.
55:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, oh, I eat you.
55:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I eat you.
55:17
[SPEAKER_01]: This all protects members from new information that could trigger more dissonance, though, because you put them in a little silo so that they're, we don't call it an echo chamber.
55:28
[SPEAKER_01]: We call it silo.
55:30
[SPEAKER_06]: Sure.
55:30
[SPEAKER_01]: So that we give them the only information that they're allowed to have,
55:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And then they don't have to have that discomfort.
55:38
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't have to experience that dismal.
55:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Because they're not getting any outside information that tell them other way.
55:44
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the real shitty thing is, I used to think Fox News was as bad as it got, right?
55:49
[SPEAKER_00]: That's where all the shit happened.
55:51
[SPEAKER_00]: But then now they have choices of how bad it gets.
55:54
[SPEAKER_00]: You have O-A-N, you have newsmax, you have like talk, you know, Alex Jones or whatever doing fucking info wars and you have all these fucking shitheads.
56:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, just like straight up shitheads on television and on radio and on podcasts.
56:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, I'm sure they would say the same thing about us, but like Timpool Ben Shapiro.
56:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, yeah.
56:19
[SPEAKER_00]: But they just...
56:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely twist the truth and lie and present it as facts and it's
56:28
[SPEAKER_00]: It's sickening to listen to or see this done because it's so nefarious.
56:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And in like, I know, I don't know this.
56:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm guessing that there are people behind the scenes that are smart enough to know what they're doing.
56:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I absolutely know that there is.
56:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I believe I know this, but I can't say that with any certainty.
56:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Because they are smart, I have to believe that's true.
56:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Because otherwise, they're just stupid.
56:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
56:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And I have to believe that they are smart enough because if they're smart enough to get ahead of the story, they know that there's a story to be got ahead of.
57:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
57:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And to make up whatever they want to make up.
57:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't always believe the person pitching the story is the smartest, but there is someone.
57:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
57:11
[SPEAKER_00]: That is behind the scenes, pushing the fucking butt.
57:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh yeah, definitely, definitely.
57:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And the fourth one was through Prophecy Reinterpretation.
57:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what we saw with that cult that I told you about.
57:23
[SPEAKER_01]: When predictions fail, leader's claim the deaf, they clean up the definition or they move the goal post.
57:32
[SPEAKER_06]: Sure.
57:33
[SPEAKER_01]: They say like, oh, the prophecy was spiritual, not literal, or God delayed judgment because we prayed hard and never what the fuck happened.
57:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Our faith prevented the disaster.
57:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I fucking love that.
57:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Every weekend.
57:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I can't tell you how many fucking how many times is the world supposed to have ended in the last like 20 years because of rapture or whatever the fuck's going to happen.
57:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And there was the Mayan calendar.
57:57
[SPEAKER_01]: There was the Mayan calendar.
57:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Why do K.
58:00
[SPEAKER_00]: I plan on that, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan, plan,
58:31
[SPEAKER_01]: be accepting of the, oh, this is why I didn't happen this time.
58:36
[SPEAKER_06]: Right.
58:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
58:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, you kind of just get okay with, oh, wow.
58:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Kind of like how, you know, my dad trained his brain to be like, oh, the cowboy's lost, but it wasn't their fault, so it doesn't count.
58:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
58:48
[SPEAKER_01]: It was, it was because it wasn't because they lost.
58:52
[SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't because the other team won.
58:54
[SPEAKER_01]: It was because of the ruffs.
58:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Or because you cheered for that one play.
58:59
[SPEAKER_00]: And that first one because you have his hat turned around backwards.
59:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah, or whatever.
59:04
[SPEAKER_01]: To anybody else, did anybody else grow up with a dad who like, when your team is on offense, you wear your hat face, you're, you know, your baseball cap, right with your bill, facing forward and when you're on defense, you have to turn around and go backwards.
59:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I did stuff like that.
59:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you?
59:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you?
59:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's just a good fun, you know?
59:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know.
59:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we did it, but it was very cold as long as you know you're in one.
59:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
59:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
59:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, true.
59:34
[SPEAKER_01]: It is true.
59:35
[SPEAKER_01]: We took it very seriously though.
59:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
59:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
59:38
[SPEAKER_00]: I was always aware that I was participated in something that was silly and fun.
59:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
59:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
59:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I was just having fun.
59:44
[SPEAKER_00]: You know?
59:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's kind of like how an athlete might, you know, where they're lucky sucks.
59:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
59:52
[SPEAKER_01]: On game on big game day.
59:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I think my participation in those things was more like I saw everybody else doing these things like that looks like fun.
1:00:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
1:00:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I don't have a problem with that.
1:00:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Having said that like there is something to like dress for success right like if you were going to an interview, especially like a woman, you know, doesn't just put on a suit right like women have a little bit more.
1:00:18
[SPEAKER_01]: that they got to do for they're getting ready to go out into the world right like there is something to like the quote unquote power suit like i know i look like a badass in this outfit i am gonna look killer and walk in there and get it i'm getting this job right like
1:00:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Even where I work my friend, he told me that he was supposed to have a meeting that one particular day and he was supposed to It ended up getting canceled, but I asked him like, wow, he looks so nice today and he was like,
1:00:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I wore my fancy sweater.
1:00:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
1:00:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, why do you wear your fancy sweater?
1:01:00
[SPEAKER_01]: What's going on?
1:01:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what's that about?
1:01:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And he goes, oh, we were supposed to have a meeting today where I was like a meet and greet.
1:01:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was going to have to introduce myself to like all the higher ups and give a presentation.
1:01:11
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, ooh, fancy.
1:01:12
[SPEAKER_01]: What that about?
1:01:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:01:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And he was like, yeah, I wasn't looking forward to it.
1:01:16
[SPEAKER_01]: But I had been told that I looked nice in this sweater and that it particularly looks nice on my skin tone.
1:01:21
[SPEAKER_06]: So.
1:01:22
[SPEAKER_06]: Sure.
1:01:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like wanting to feel my best so I put this on to look my best and I was like that's magical thinking that's so cute you're a psychiatrist you know better and he was like I know I'm so disappointed in myself.
1:01:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And he was like, but it is true.
1:01:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Like two things can be true at once and not be cognitive dissonance.
1:01:44
[SPEAKER_01]: If you admit it, you know what I mean?
1:01:47
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, I know that this is silly.
1:01:49
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not magical.
1:01:50
[SPEAKER_01]: I just, I know that people find it me pleasant when I wear this and that makes me feel good about myself and I want to feel good about myself right now.
1:02:00
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm gonna wear this and look my best and know that I look my best and be confident because I know I look nice.
1:02:07
[SPEAKER_00]: So I mean, all of that's rational thinking right that there's there's rational behind that power So, yeah, yeah, definitely.
1:02:16
[SPEAKER_01]: So the last one is oh, no, that was all four of the things now We're moving on to a new topic.
1:02:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, how cults use this mechanism?
1:02:28
[SPEAKER_01]: okay.
1:02:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Step one is to identify the hook or the mark.
1:02:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
1:02:34
[SPEAKER_01]: So recruiters get people to say things.
1:02:37
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to improve myself.
1:02:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I care about truth.
1:02:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm spiritually open.
1:02:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And then once someone publicly commits to that identity, they feel pressure to behave consistently with it because they've said it.
1:02:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Now they've got to follow through.
1:02:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
1:02:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Now they've got to commit to it.
1:02:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, so that's identifying the, okay, step two, and I'm just going to try to buzz through these real quick.
1:03:00
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I gotta stop.
1:03:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I gotta stop.
1:03:01
[SPEAKER_00]: You're real quick.
1:03:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Good.
1:03:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Just because like, ow.
1:03:04
[SPEAKER_00]: When you said that, it just, it reminds me of every interview or any time I had to talk to my boss about numbers or this, that or the other, you don't like, you just have to say these certain things and they need you to commit to things, right?
1:03:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Things that you can commit to from you.
1:03:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
1:03:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And you have to say it a certain way that's in business speaks, so that you can make sure we all know what we're talking about specifically.
1:03:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I need you in, I need you to be in.
1:03:35
[SPEAKER_00]: You gotta have your smart goals so you can set those, you know, timely, you know, whatever fucking bulls measure down measured.
1:03:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's all good stuff.
1:03:43
[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
1:03:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And you gotta, you gotta do all those things.
1:03:46
[SPEAKER_00]: And don't know that's the correct way to do it.
1:03:49
[SPEAKER_00]: So we can all succeed and get all the things done correctly.
1:03:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And if we're all just on board, then we're definitely going to succeed.
1:03:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's yeah.
1:03:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I just need to know from you, are you all in and what is your immediate goal?
1:04:06
[SPEAKER_01]: How many are you going to kill this week?
1:04:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's what it is.
1:04:10
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so gross.
1:04:10
[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
1:04:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:04:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm step two is the commitment escalation.
1:04:16
[SPEAKER_01]: And we talked a little bit about this.
1:04:17
[SPEAKER_01]: How companies will like they'll start you off pink small.
1:04:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And then they like slowly build up and and charge you more and more and more and you're like, we'll shit.
1:04:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
1:04:25
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, some cost policy.
1:04:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I've already invested so much.
1:04:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
1:04:29
[SPEAKER_01]: So the group will ask for small actions like a 10th of meeting or two or three, you know, you need to read some material.
1:04:38
[SPEAKER_01]: You need to donate a little money or a little more money or a little more money and then comes the biggest one.
1:04:43
[SPEAKER_01]: This one's my favorite because Mary Kay does this.
1:04:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I fucking hate it.
1:04:49
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what it is.
1:04:50
[SPEAKER_01]: No recruit a friend.
1:04:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
1:04:52
[SPEAKER_01]: You got to bring a buddy.
1:04:54
[SPEAKER_01]: bring a buddy vacation Bible school when your kid makes you do it bring a buddy bring a buddy next week and you get candy yeah yeah bring a buddy and if you recruit a friend you get to go into heaven real hard.
1:05:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I got news for you.
1:05:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Workplaces do this down too.
1:05:11
[SPEAKER_00]: You get, yes, this is for bringing in a friend.
1:05:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:05:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So like, we're all just many calls.
1:05:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Part of it.
1:05:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:05:17
[SPEAKER_01]: So how many times do you like, you open a check in account?
1:05:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you refer somebody, right?
1:05:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Then you get a bonus right into your account.
1:05:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, if you like even plasma donation places do, because I have a friend that he was donating plasma and he asked me if I want to I can't donate plasma unfortunately like my blood is like absolutely not it's tooth and stupid.
1:05:45
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
1:05:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, like I've tried so, you know, that's how I know my blood is wrong for it, but he was like, hey, um, if you go and you drop my name then like I get 700 dollars as a bonus and I was like sweet and he was like, yeah, do it and I'll give you half and I was like, I'm in unfortunately I do, but like you always bring a buddy, right?
1:06:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And then everybody gets more and more and yeah, like you said we're all fucking cults now.
1:06:11
[SPEAKER_01]: but each step increases psychological investment because now the person thinks, I did all of these things and so not only am I in, but because the process is such a step by step thing, well laid out and structured, it must be legit.
1:06:30
[SPEAKER_01]: right because you've done so many things yeah like no this is a really professional outfit man you know look at this organization yeah like they're real intense to make you do this and this and it like sure yeah seems legit
1:06:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Step three is the dissonance trap.
1:06:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And eventually, some contradictions are going to start to appear, okay?
1:06:52
[SPEAKER_01]: You will see some cracks.
1:06:53
[SPEAKER_01]: You will recognize that the company work for sucks.
1:06:57
[SPEAKER_01]: You will see that the cult is like Colty, or that the leggings aren't as good as you want them to be, or that maybe Tupperware is made of plastic and plastic isn't good.
1:07:08
[SPEAKER_00]: To be fair, not everybody always sees the cracks.
1:07:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Right, but you might see one or two, you might.
1:07:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, you might see that.
1:07:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, the Dallas Cowboys did fucking fumble that ball.
1:07:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Bullshit, right?
1:07:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Eventually contradictions appear.
1:07:22
[SPEAKER_01]: The prophecy might fail.
1:07:24
[SPEAKER_01]: The leader behaves badly like, you know, how the cold leaders always rape little girls.
1:07:29
[SPEAKER_01]: That's just what they do.
1:07:31
[SPEAKER_01]: It's what they always do, right?
1:07:33
[SPEAKER_01]: The teachings might conflict with reality that also always happens.
1:07:37
[SPEAKER_01]: It might always happen.
1:07:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And instead of leaving members rationalize the conflict to protect their identity, the prophecy didn't fail.
1:07:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Our faith prevented the catastrophe which we already touched about.
1:07:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, they just doubled them.
1:07:53
[SPEAKER_01]: They just figure out a way.
1:07:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:07:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, no.
1:07:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Actually, the Dallas couple is didn't fumble, but even if they did, um, the grass was why it wasn't as fault.
1:08:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Or what the fuck ever.
1:08:04
[SPEAKER_01]: The devil might trip them.
1:08:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you not see the devil with his pitch for crawl onto the field?
1:08:12
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a snake.
1:08:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Did you see it?
1:08:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
1:08:14
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't fucking know.
1:08:15
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
1:08:16
[SPEAKER_01]: So, that of course leads to the question, what is the difference between religion and cult psychology?
1:08:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
1:08:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you know?
1:08:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Nothing.
1:08:30
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not theology, it's commitment pressure.
1:08:33
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the only difference.
1:08:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Because if you join a cult,
1:08:41
[SPEAKER_01]: They kind of force you to do things, right?
1:08:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
1:08:44
[SPEAKER_01]: A church doesn't necessarily.
1:08:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Not forced, you're just encouraged and social pressure and things like that.
1:08:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:08:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Versus, if you're in a call, you have to drink the clock and cool it.
1:08:56
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to drink the clock and cool it.
1:08:57
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the main difference.
1:08:59
[SPEAKER_01]: They come in with pressure.
1:09:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
1:09:01
[SPEAKER_01]: So how pressured you are to commit and to do these acts is
1:09:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Basically, what determines is it a religion or a cult?
1:09:12
[SPEAKER_06]: Sure.
1:09:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And that kind of blew my mind because I just always thought he had religions or cults.
1:09:18
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like cult is cult adjacent cult life.
1:09:21
[SPEAKER_00]: They are cult adjacent.
1:09:22
[SPEAKER_00]: They are they're definitely cult ish.
1:09:24
[SPEAKER_00]: They're just not.
1:09:25
[SPEAKER_00]: They're not afraid of a cult.
1:09:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say.
1:09:28
[SPEAKER_01]: any more than, you know, Mary Kay is a cult, right?
1:09:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right, but I would obviously say that there are some workplaces that are much more cultish than a fucking church.
1:09:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:09:40
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm very, you know, like they, that there are a lot of things in our, in our life and the world that operate in a very cultish manner.
1:09:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Have you ever attended a primary work shop?
1:09:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I did once.
1:09:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I did once as well.
1:09:54
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was not even not one.
1:09:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was not at the same time because I remember I had talked to you when you were like, you did that or maybe it was vice versa.
1:10:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember.
1:10:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
1:10:06
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I did my mind was definitely before we ever got together.
1:10:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, like it was it was a friend of mine said he had this great, you know, this great opportunity.
1:10:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:10:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's how they always, they always face the way.
1:10:18
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a great opportunity.
1:10:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know what it's like.
1:10:21
[SPEAKER_00]: You know me as well as anybody in the planet.
1:10:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know that like when I hear bullshit, my brain just goes, that's bullshit.
1:10:27
[SPEAKER_07]: Yeah.
1:10:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I can't, I can't help but like sit there and I went through to be that was like, oh, yeah, no.
1:10:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Nope, as soon as they say shouting like,
1:10:37
[SPEAKER_01]: it's a call in response and the guy on stage is like your Tony Robbins like getting the cloud worked up and everybody's like yeah right so excited and it's like this is of high school pep rally yeah I am too old for this shit absolutely fun yeah you're yelling that loud we don't I don't I don't buy it it's not correct
1:10:56
[SPEAKER_00]: whatever it is, it's not correct.
1:10:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:10:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And it sounds like you want me to give you money and then go door to door and get my- and that's basically what it is.
1:11:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:11:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, oh, so you are just the man version of Mary K for women.
1:11:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Make up.
1:11:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, to be sexist, I am going to be sexist because the majority of the people there were men.
1:11:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
1:11:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And the majority of the sellers of Mary K make up his woman.
1:11:20
[SPEAKER_06]: Sure.
1:11:20
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
1:11:21
[SPEAKER_01]: To me, Primerica was just Mary Kaverman and I was like, no thanks, not because I'm not a man, but because I don't like Colts right.
1:11:32
[SPEAKER_06]: Yeah, basically.
1:11:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, wait, you're gross.
1:11:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And then so the final question.
1:11:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to leave you with this.
1:11:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
1:11:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we'll wrap it up and move along.
1:11:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
1:11:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Or move along and wrap it up.
1:11:43
[SPEAKER_01]: can atheist fall into the same.
1:11:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
1:11:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for answering correctly.
1:11:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
1:11:50
[SPEAKER_00]: No, I've seen it.
1:11:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
1:11:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And then so our own members in discord, like, refer to this is this act is called.
1:11:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my God.
1:11:57
[SPEAKER_00]: With the discord.
1:11:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm, I'm always surprised that people come to me on this.
1:12:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm glad they do.
1:12:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm always shocked, pleasantly, pleasantly.
1:12:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, we just had somebody come in tonight and say, and thank us for having these because we've provided a safe space for people that are leaving religion and that you know, what a place to be and it's not toxic.
1:12:20
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, so, um,
1:12:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Even if we are called, I think we're right minded in our cult.
1:12:26
[SPEAKER_00]: We are, we are good spirits.
1:12:28
[SPEAKER_00]: We are well-meaning, you know?
1:12:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think there were any more cult than like the spaghetti monster people.
1:12:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
1:12:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're called, too.
1:12:35
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, we're all the fun kind.
1:12:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.
1:12:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And we like, we like the rainbow coalition.
1:12:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Come join our cult.
1:12:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:12:43
[SPEAKER_00]: It's better.
1:12:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I've heard even people say that the queer community is a cult.
1:12:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, I feel like you're trying to be ugly with that.
1:12:52
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't care for that language.
1:12:53
[SPEAKER_00]: No, they definitely are trying to be ugly.
1:12:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And there might be some truth to some aspects of that, depending on what like anything could be a cult.
1:13:01
[SPEAKER_00]: Anything could be a cult, right?
1:13:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't mean that it is a cult.
1:13:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just saying that like, it depends on what
1:13:08
[SPEAKER_00]: you're referring to with regard to that, you know, like nording matters, context matters.
1:13:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, and then I'm like, so what I'm hearing to then is that straight people are cult, because they certainly have their own fun.
1:13:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
1:13:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
1:13:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it's like, I've heard people say a black Twitter is a cult.
1:13:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, you mean the way white people are cult?
1:13:29
[SPEAKER_00]: I just meant so far as like you might get caught up doing certain things with a certain group that's, you know, whatever, it doesn't.
1:13:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Things can turn into cults that aren't specifically cultish, you know, it just depends on how it's being handled and who's in charge of it.
1:13:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
1:13:45
[SPEAKER_00]: How it's all done.
1:13:46
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
1:13:47
[SPEAKER_00]: That's all I'm saying.
1:13:48
[SPEAKER_01]: If you were scared to ask questions, you might be in a cult.
1:13:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:13:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's fair.
1:13:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's fair as well.
1:13:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you're being encouraged to give money that you don't have, you might be an occult.
1:14:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:14:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And we would never try to take your money.
1:14:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And please feel free to ask any questions.
1:14:09
[SPEAKER_01]: You might not like the answer, but you can always ask.
1:14:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And I will show you the scar on my wrist.
1:14:16
[SPEAKER_01]: And she thinks that looks like a clitoris, but I won't show you my feet because that's just weird.
1:14:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you I'm pretty sure you've shown your feet me.
1:14:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I probably have.
1:14:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm almost certain that I just wanted to say it because there was body because like people that like do feet things like.
1:14:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah Yeah, that's just funny.
1:14:33
[SPEAKER_00]: This is good.
1:14:33
[SPEAKER_00]: You never know what you're going to get from wife any anytime we do these lives.
1:14:36
[SPEAKER_01]: No, it's so true.
1:14:37
[SPEAKER_00]: It should stop by to see the My glitter is all comes to my clitoris risk.
1:14:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, if that's what gets you here, you know
1:14:49
[SPEAKER_00]: all right okay so yeah that's all we got for tonight we'll be back hopefully very soon with our next podcast episode which wouldn't be in the 10th episode i think of it'll be either nine or 10 second make a doodles nine or 10 is it 10 yeah okay i just i just put up nine this morning
1:15:10
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to take your word for it.
1:15:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I know you are.
1:15:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I know there's a Q&A coming up.
1:15:13
[SPEAKER_00]: You know why it's badly to call up on this house.
1:15:15
[SPEAKER_01]: You do not lead anything here, shut your face right now.
1:15:21
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
1:15:22
[SPEAKER_01]: You can't even remember to put a trash bag in the trash cam when you take the trash out.
1:15:27
[SPEAKER_00]: That's true, but you know what I did take the trash out.
1:15:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know what?
1:15:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, I think about it, you made me put the trash bag in by not putting a new trash bag in.
1:15:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Exactly.
1:15:37
[SPEAKER_01]: So you are a cold leader.
1:15:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And I have sacrificed time and activity by doing exact the work that you should have done.
1:15:46
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
1:15:47
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
1:15:47
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a cold and you are a cold leader.
1:15:49
[SPEAKER_00]: That's true.
1:15:49
[SPEAKER_00]: That's true.
1:15:50
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
1:15:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Come join our cold.
1:15:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
1:15:52
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
1:15:52
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll see you next time, guys.
1:15:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for joining us.
1:15:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
1:15:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Bye.
1:15:55
[UNKNOWN]: Bye.