Latest / The Virtual Couch / Death By a Thousand Cuts VII - The Rise of the Emotionally Mature!

Transcript

Death By a Thousand Cuts VII - The Rise of the Emotionally Mature! · The Virtual Couch

• 0:03
  Hey everybody, welcome to a special crossover episode.
• 0:06
  This is episode 111 of Waking Up to Narcissism and episode 419 of The Virtual Couch.
• 0:13
  So actually, if you do the math, we got 111, 419, maybe throw 20 episodes of
• 0:18
  Love ADHD in there, 15 of The Mind, The Mirror, Me.
• 0:22
  I don't know, maybe a dozen of Murder on the Couch, Carrie the 12,
• 0:26
  and that is roughly roughly 572 episodes
• 0:29
  of podcasting or for my
• 0:32
  waking up to narcissism audience using narcissistic math
• 0:35
  that is well over 10,000 podcast episodes so
• 0:38
  thank you for joining me now why a crossover episode today there's a couple
• 0:43
  of reasons one is the topic of today death by a thousand cuts these episodes
• 0:47
  are ones that resonate so much with people on the waking up to narcissism side
• 0:51
  but i also have of people on the virtual couch side of the coin that have talked
• 0:56
  about going over and listening to these as well.
• 0:58
  And for my virtual couch audience, the Waking Up to Narcissism podcast is actually
• 1:03
  quite a bit bigger than the virtual couch podcast, which I never anticipated.
• 1:07
  And they do hit different demographics when you really break down where they go and the numbers.
• 1:13
  So I just thought, why not? Why not bring all my friends together today to listen
• 1:18
  to today's podcast? So that's one reason that the Death by a Thousand Cuts episodes
• 1:22
  are pretty fascinating and today's has so much content.
• 1:26
  And yeah, there are examples that are heartbreaking and there are some that
• 1:30
  are just fascinating and will probably resonate with a lot of you in your relationships,
• 1:36
  but not even necessarily, I guess, in your relationship,
• 1:38
  but you may not even be aware that there are people around you that you care
• 1:41
  about that are also in these relationships with emotionally immature or people
• 1:46
  that have strong narcissistic traits or tendencies.
• 1:48
  And hopefully this will help give you even more empathy and the opportunity
• 1:55
  or ability to connect with some people that might be struggling.
• 1:59
  Or again, you might be struggling in your relationship as well. Now, reason number two.
• 2:03
  This is moving week. We're headed to Arizona. And on that note,
• 2:07
  I had never done this or I never have on a podcast. So we'll see how this goes.
• 2:11
  But first of all, sign up for my newsletter at tonyoverbay.com or in the link
• 2:15
  tree in the show notes here.
• 2:16
  And then speaking of my newsletter, this is kind of part of that segue.
• 2:19
  A couple of weeks ago, I mentioned to my newsletter audience about this move.
• 2:23
  And then at the end, I threw in there a little bit of a, hey,
• 2:26
  I might actually have been able to open up some space to have a handful of new virtual clients.
• 2:33
  And the feedback was really, it was really wonderful. But I just wanted to put
• 2:36
  that out there here as well.
• 2:37
  So if you resonate with the material that I put out, either as a couple or as
• 2:42
  an individual, feel free to drop me an email at contact at tonyoverbay.com or
• 2:46
  go through my website and tell me a little bit more about your situation.
• 2:49
  I can't promise anything, but if I can help, I would love to see if that might be a possibility.
• 2:54
  And I also have two amazing associates, Nate and Marla Christensen.
• 2:58
  Yes, they are married and they are both therapists, insert joke there.
• 3:01
  Marla was on the Virtual Couch podcast a couple of weeks ago talking about grief
• 3:04
  and loss, but she can work with a variety of things.
• 3:07
  And she has some strong relationship skills from some of the things that she's
• 3:12
  been through in her background.
• 3:13
  We talk about that on that Virtual Couch episode.
• 3:16
  And then Nate has been on, I think, the Virtual Couch half a dozen times,
• 3:19
  He's also over on Waking Up the Narcissism, and he works with addiction and
• 3:22
  ADHD, anxiety, depression.
• 3:24
  So if you're looking for help and just not sure where to go,
• 3:28
  just reach out to me and I'll see what I can do.
• 3:31
  But just a quick heads up too, before we dive into today's episode,
• 3:34
  it should be dropping on Tuesday, March 19th.
• 3:37
  So if you like watching things live and you got a TikTok account or YouTube,
• 3:43
  then you're in luck because my daughter Sydney and I are gearing up for our
• 3:46
  next relationship Q&A session, And that is on this Wednesday,
• 3:49
  March 20th at 7.30 p.m. Pacific time.
• 3:52
  And you can catch that on TikTok live or on Twitter.
• 3:57
  On YouTube live. And you can always catch the replays on my YouTube channel.
• 4:01
  So talk about death by a thousand cuts. We hear that phrase often,
• 4:05
  and it actually comes from this old harsh punishment called,
• 4:08
  I think it's Ling Chi out of China.
• 4:10
  So if you just set the stage, picture this, it's a slow, painful process where
• 4:15
  the person got these tiny little
• 4:17
  cuts, basically paper cuts over and over until it was just too much.
• 4:22
  But now we're not talking about physical cuts, but emotional and psychological
• 4:26
  ones that come from dealing with someone who's struggling with emotional immaturity,
• 4:31
  or maybe showing some narcissistic traits and tendencies.
• 4:35
  And what this can start to look like is sarcastic comments or a cold shoulder here and there.
• 4:40
  And what is really difficult is those may not seem like a big deal on their
• 4:44
  own, but you start to pile them up.
• 4:46
  And we're talking day after day, year after year, it can even be decade after
• 4:49
  decade. and they really do start to wear a person down.
• 4:52
  It starts to chip away at who you are. It messes with your head.
• 4:55
  And pretty soon, you start to feel all alone in your own relationship.
• 5:00
  But yet also questioning, is this something that I'm causing or creating, or is it all in my head?
• 5:06
  Or the person that's the more pathologically kind that's trying to make sense
• 5:10
  of things will often say, wait, am I the emotionally mature person? Am I the narcissist?
• 5:15
  But here's the deal, Because I do want to validate those feelings.
• 5:19
  They are real, the feelings that you're having.
• 5:21
  And those small cuts, they are anything but small when they start to pile up.
• 5:26
  So as we start to dive into more of the stories today, you're going to hear
• 5:30
  a lot of those moments that really did leave a mark. And we'll talk about how
• 5:33
  we can start patching ourselves up, how we can start standing strong again.
• 5:37
  And so often, we just don't know what we don't know.
• 5:41
  Now we're here and we're starting to learn more about something that we weren't aware of.
• 5:45
  And that can be a really difficult place to be when you start to wake up to
• 5:48
  this emotional immaturity, whether it's in yourself or in your relationship,
• 5:52
  because it can often then feel like, well, now what do I do?
• 5:54
  But what you do is you just you keep doing and being and listening to podcasts like this.
• 5:59
  And you're on that path of enlightenment. Let me also address,
• 6:02
  before we jump into the examples, why we often feel dismissed when trying to
• 6:07
  share some of these small cuts.
• 6:08
  Because let's say that you have tried to share these with, and let's not say
• 6:12
  maybe necessarily the person that's inflicting those cuts upon you,
• 6:15
  because I'm sure that you've tried to do that already.
• 6:17
  But you start trying to share them maybe with a sibling, an adult sibling,
• 6:21
  maybe a pastor, a bishop, a leader, a friend.
• 6:24
  Because sometimes we just want to feel heard. If we feel like we're being made
• 6:27
  to feel crazy within our relationship, that's one of the first things we need to do is say, am I crazy?
• 6:32
  I need to reach out to somebody. And especially if it's somebody that I think
• 6:35
  that I can trust, but then if they invalidate us, you know, we want somebody
• 6:39
  to tell us that, hey, we're going to be okay, or I see you.
• 6:42
  I know that we need to find that okayness from within.
• 6:45
  I mean, that's a big part of becoming is that you do need to eventually find
• 6:49
  a way to know that you're okay, not need that external validation.
• 6:53
  But that is a process and that one ebbs and flows with your own mood and what's going on in your life.
• 6:57
  But we'll get to that point where you have that okayness from within.
• 7:01
  It's really difficult if you're
• 7:03
  in a relationship where you're starting to bleed out from these cuts.
• 7:07
  So when you do try to open up to your friends and family about the little things
• 7:10
  that maybe your partner does that is really starting to hurt,
• 7:13
  all those little small comments and actions that again, don't seem like much
• 7:17
  on their own, but they add up over time.
• 7:18
  So you finally decide, okay, I'm going to share this with somebody,
• 7:21
  I'm hoping for a bit of understanding, maybe even a shoulder to lean on.
• 7:24
  But instead, you get things like, well, hey, it could be worse.
• 7:28
  Or, oh, no, I totally get it. My partner does the same thing.
• 7:30
  And then just like that, the focus shifts. And it's not about you anymore.
• 7:34
  It's about them making themselves feel better about the conversation.
• 7:37
  I know that people are trying. In that scenario, they feel like they are doing
• 7:42
  something good by telling you, hey, don't worry about it.
• 7:45
  As if you hadn't thought about that, or as if somebody telling you not not to
• 7:48
  worry about it. Then all of a sudden, your fight or flight response calms down.
• 7:52
  Your body no longer keeps the score and you can just go back into the relationship
• 7:55
  and say, I guess it's not so bad. They are trying to help.
• 7:59
  But in doing so, they start to make it about their own comfort of getting rid
• 8:03
  of their discomfort, not about what you're going through.
• 8:06
  And that's from an absolutely bless their heart standpoint.
• 8:09
  Here's the thing. It's human nature to want to fix things, especially when we're
• 8:12
  faced with somebody else's discomfort.
• 8:14
  If you're a parent and your kid comes up to you and they are really sad,
• 8:18
  what do we want to do? We want to say, hey, don't worry about it, bud. It's not a big deal.
• 8:21
  Or, well, what did you do as part of that.
• 8:24
  The situation that you're coming to me with that you're upset about,
• 8:27
  or a not right now, or just take a couple of deep breaths, or we can even be
• 8:31
  doing it from a place of good.
• 8:34
  But what we're doing is invalidating that person because quite frankly,
• 8:38
  it makes us uncomfortable.
• 8:39
  You know, it's, it's like, if we can offer this quick solution or make it seem
• 8:43
  less serious, then we've done our part.
• 8:45
  It's all I can do, but that's not always what we need. It's rarely what we need.
• 8:50
  Sometimes what we're looking for is to be heard, to have somebody acknowledge
• 8:53
  that what what they're going through is tough without trying to brush it off
• 8:57
  or compare it to their own experiences.
• 8:58
  No fixing your judgment statements, not, well, why didn't you,
• 9:01
  or I would have, or you need to tell them, but just that sounds hard. It really does.
• 9:06
  So that's why having a space where we can share and really listen to each other is so important.
• 9:10
  You know, it's not just about talking. It's about feeling that feeling understood
• 9:14
  and really feeling validated.
• 9:16
  And if I'm being real, finding that kind of support, support,
• 9:19
  it can be an absolute game changer.
• 9:22
  And that's what starts to remind us that we're not alone in feeling this way
• 9:25
  and that our experiences do matter.
• 9:27
  So, if you're listening on the virtual couch side or wherever you are,
• 9:31
  I have a private Facebook group for women who are in emotionally immature or
• 9:36
  narcissistic relationships with, it can be anyone, with an adult,
• 9:40
  a parent, it can be an adult child,
• 9:41
  it can be their spouse, it can be somebody at work, it can be a neighbor,
• 9:45
  it can be be a pastor, it can be you name it.
• 9:46
  And then I started a men's group, which I've called Emotional Architects.
• 9:51
  We're learning how to become more emotionally mature and more emotionally consistent.
• 9:55
  And so that, if you're interested in either one of those, reach out,
• 9:58
  contact at TonyOverbay.com.
• 10:00
  So if you never heard one of these episodes before, buckle up,
• 10:02
  listen with an open mind because you might not be the one getting cut or doing
• 10:06
  the cutting, but the chances are that somebody around you that you know is living
• 10:10
  in one of these types of relationships and emotional immaturity knows no gender.
• 10:14
  Yes, there is a small study out of the University of Buffalo that looked at
• 10:18
  about half a million participants over a 30-year period that showed that men
• 10:22
  are more narcissistic or emotionally immature than women.
• 10:25
  And if you're newer to the narcissism angle, or if you hear it being thrown out a lot,
• 10:31
  just know that on my Waking Up to Narcissism podcast, I'm very intentional about
• 10:34
  recognizing that if you're just listening to the general populace,
• 10:38
  the zeitgeist, or what people are talking about.
• 10:41
  Probably feels like 80% of the population is narcissistic, when in reality,
• 10:45
  a diagnostic criteria for narcissistic personality disorder is most likely met
• 10:50
  by maybe three to four, maybe four and a half percent of the population.
• 10:54
  So that's where I've hung my shingle, my sign, my hat on.
• 10:59
  Actually, we're all emotionally immature until we're not.
• 11:02
  And those symptoms of emotional immaturity are a lot of what do we do with our discomfort?
• 11:07
  Can I sit with that that discomfort? Am I willing to self-confront? Can I apologize?
• 11:12
  Can I take ownership for things? And not just from a people-pleasing standpoint,
• 11:16
  but can I do that as a way to grow, even if the person that I'm communicating
• 11:21
  with or in a relationship gets frustrated?
• 11:23
  Because typically, we want to eliminate their frustration to make me feel better.
• 11:28
  And that is more of that emotional immaturity. Is a boundary more of an ultimatum?
• 11:33
  Hey, I need you to not do that anymore, which in reality.
• 11:35
  I'm just challenged that person versus what a real boundary is,
• 11:39
  is if you do that, then I will leave.
• 11:41
  I'll go on a walk. I'll do something other than be here because that isn't going
• 11:46
  to be met with somebody saying, okay, I respect that.
• 11:49
  You know, typically we're in these relationships where the more pathologically
• 11:52
  kind is with the more emotionally immature.
• 11:54
  And the reality is that means we're both pretty immature.
• 11:58
  But then when somebody starts to change the dynamic in the relationship,
• 12:02
  the other person doesn't typically throw a party and get balloons and party
• 12:05
  hats, they start to push new buttons to try to get you to react.
• 12:08
  Because if you all of a sudden get better or start to be more emotionally consistent or mature,
• 12:14
  which is our goal as we grow into immature adult human beings,
• 12:19
  it can threaten the safety in the relationship for the person that all they
• 12:23
  know for love is control or manipulation or coercion.
• 12:27
  If that's the case, if you find yourself in any of these sides,
• 12:30
  you're that pathologically kind person, or you're the person that's starting
• 12:33
  to wake up to maybe more of your own emotional immaturity, you're in the right spot.
• 12:37
  So let's get to these stories. So what I like to do in these Death by a Thousand
• 12:42
  Cuts episodes is I will read these stories.
• 12:44
  The stories have come from people that have emailed in since the last Death
• 12:48
  by a Thousand Cuts story or people are listening to the back catalog.
• 12:51
  And I get a lot of these emails. And then I also put a request out to the women's Facebook group.
• 12:56
  So these are all based on real life experiences. And then I've gone in and asked for permission.
• 13:01
  So at times, I think people maybe have changed up a few of the details just
• 13:06
  to protect confidentiality, but they are based off of real stories.
• 13:10
  And I think here's our first quick emotional immaturity check that as you're
• 13:14
  hearing these, if your first thought or reaction is, I'm not buying it.
• 13:18
  It's kind of fascinating because you don't know these people or their experiences.
• 13:22
  And as somebody that sits and gets to do the couples therapy with people that
• 13:25
  are in emotionally immature relationships or people with narcissistic traits
• 13:28
  and tendencies, the stories are pretty, pretty wild.
• 13:32
  The things that people do to control or coerce or manipulate another human being.
• 13:37
  So again, quick check. If you're saying, oh, I don't know if I buy it.
• 13:40
  That is a you thing in a loving way from a differentiated standpoint.
• 13:44
  So let's, let's get to the stories. Oh, the first person said he used to make
• 13:49
  sweeping generalizations about groups of people.
• 13:53
  When I disagreed, he said I was being argumentative for the sake of it.
• 13:57
  Because remember, to the narcissist or the extremely emotionally mature,
• 14:01
  you can't have a different opinion.
• 14:02
  Because if you do, then you think that theirs is wrong.
• 14:05
  Even if that's not what you're saying or conveying in this scenario,
• 14:09
  he's already observed you disagreeing. And then he has quickly made the judgment
• 14:13
  that therefore you think that you are better than him. All or nothing,
• 14:17
  black or white thinking.
• 14:18
  Honestly, it's like everything is a game that there must be a winner and there
• 14:22
  must be a loser, but we're not playing the, I guess it would be the real live
• 14:27
  game of life where it's almost like we're playing a board game because there has to be that winner.
• 14:32
  There has to be somebody in this one-up position and what that does in the relationship
• 14:36
  is it eliminates curiosity. It eliminates connection.
• 14:39
  It's all competition. And one of the stranger things still is that he also most
• 14:43
  likely thinks that you will now be impressed that he can speak with such authority
• 14:47
  about something while trying to also destroy you emotionally,
• 14:51
  which then actually only makes him feel better.
• 14:54
  But now you're also supposed to say, my hero.
• 14:57
  And you're probably supposed to desire him and you'll get that wrong too.
• 15:00
  So anyway, back to this example, she said he would never value my opinion.
• 15:04
  And he used to use random people on the internet to back up his views.
• 15:07
  So then I don't know if I've just become more healthy egoed or more of an old
• 15:12
  man, but there are times where in a session, if this were to play out,
• 15:16
  and let's just say in this scenario, the guy says,
• 15:18
  but if his wife says something about parenting, which would make him more accountable,
• 15:21
  let's say that she says, and I know that I've asked for help in bathing the kids now for years,
• 15:27
  to them, which he might say something like, well, you know what Dr.
• 15:31
  Closeye says about men who bend over in cramped circumstances.
• 15:35
  And this one is based on a true story, honestly, to which then she would say,
• 15:40
  okay, I looked that up. I can't find where actually Dr.
• 15:42
  Closeye says that, to which then he would say, look, I read it.
• 15:46
  Are you now telling me that my memory is bad? Because let's be serious.
• 15:48
  Who here has the bad memory?
• 15:50
  Who forgot to actually wish me a happy birthday at midnight, the day of my birthday.
• 15:53
  And I had to be the one who said it first and who forgets to check and see if there's cherry Dr.
• 15:58
  Pepper zero in the fridge so that I have one when I get home. So talk about memory.
• 16:02
  Anyway, now we're arguing about something that is so far off topic and that still remains silly.
• 16:08
  And this all started with his made up pseudoscience about bending over in bathrooms
• 16:13
  so that he can get out of giving the kids a bath because he let slip at one
• 16:17
  point that his dad never had to,
• 16:20
  had to give him a bath. That was his mom's job.
• 16:23
  To which then the wife said flatly, you have zero relationship with your dad now.
• 16:28
  So is that the goal? To which of course he then proceeded to tell her how mean
• 16:32
  she was to say things like that.
• 16:34
  But we're still not talking about the increasingly growing elephant in the room
• 16:39
  is that he's not going to be watching those kids anytime soon,
• 16:42
  even though that conversation started with a classic, what can can I do to help?
• 16:47
  Just not that or that or that. But look, I tried, I asked. And so now he can
• 16:52
  even throw that back at her.
• 16:54
  Another person said that he once told me that whenever he formed an opinion,
• 16:58
  it was because he had thoroughly researched the subject, considered both sides,
• 17:01
  and then made up his mind.
• 17:02
  Therefore, he saw no value in hearing my opinion because it wouldn't sway his decision.
• 17:07
  So she said, eventually, I just stopped voicing disagreements because it seemed futile.
• 17:10
  But then when I wouldn't voice disagreements or I wouldn't communicate at all,
• 17:15
  he then would criticize me for not having any opinions, labeling me as a sheep
• 17:19
  and implying that I wasn't intelligent enough to think for myself.
• 17:22
  And some of the responses to this post I thought were really interesting.
• 17:25
  Someone said, this message really strikes a chord with me.
• 17:28
  My spouse used the exact same reasoning to dismiss my views,
• 17:32
  claiming that his opinions are based on extensive research and expertise.
• 17:36
  And any attempt for me to offer a different perspective was then labeled as fighting.
• 17:41
  So in his eyes, fighting means simply having an opinion that doesn't align with his.
• 17:46
  She said he often makes negative and hurtful comments. And if I try to respond
• 17:50
  in any way to lessen the negativity, now I'm accused as being difficult.
• 17:55
  So she just has to go along with his opinion and agree with it,
• 17:58
  or else that means he's fighting. And then if she doesn't agree with it,
• 18:01
  then that means she has no opinion.
• 18:02
  Another person said, this all sounds so familiar. My partner would accuse me
• 18:06
  saying, you always have to fight, fight out of your own corner.
• 18:09
  As if standing up for myself was a negative trait.
• 18:12
  But she said, I do need to express my opinion when I disagree rather than staying silent.
• 18:17
  And let me talk about something that happens often in relationships where there's
• 18:22
  a lot of emotional immaturity in the mix. And it's this whole idea of black and white thinking.
• 18:27
  It's that mindset where everything is either one way or it's the other.
• 18:31
  It's right or it's wrong with no in between.
• 18:33
  If you are not with me, you are against me.
• 18:36
  And here's the deal with emotionally immature people that they often see the
• 18:40
  world in this very rigid way. If you come up with a different opinion in their
• 18:43
  mind, it's not just a different perspective.
• 18:44
  It's a direct challenge because that does come with this. if you don't agree
• 18:48
  with me, then you must believe I'm wrong.
• 18:50
  And that's why I talk so often about curiosity. There's no curiosity there.
• 18:53
  It just goes straight to defense.
• 18:55
  That is what that black or white thinking is, that all or nothing.
• 18:58
  But that's not how life works.
• 19:00
  Having a different opinion is not just okay. It's part of what makes us human.
• 19:04
  It's part of the whole human experience.
• 19:06
  And that's how we grow and learn and connect with each other on a much deeper level.
• 19:10
  Because imagine how dull conversations
• 19:12
  would be if we all just nodded and agreed on everything. thing.
• 19:16
  Although what is fascinating is sometimes when I've had a real live,
• 19:19
  incredibly emotionally immature, even bordering on narcissistic person in my office.
• 19:23
  And when they just say things that they feel are the right things to say,
• 19:27
  I can think of a situation right now where in bringing up this all or nothing
• 19:31
  black or white thinking, and in essence, trying to say to the narcissist,
• 19:34
  but are you just wanting her to agree with everything that you say?
• 19:38
  Are you not interested in what her opinion is? And he looked at me and said, not really.
• 19:42
  And then that was his interior landscape of his mind or what it felt like to be him.
• 19:47
  Because the truth is, and we're talking about from a place of maturity,
• 19:51
  it is totally possible for two opinions to exist in the same space without one
• 19:55
  canceling out the other. As a matter of fact, that is true.
• 19:59
  The way that human interaction is designed to work.
• 20:02
  It's about sharing and discussing and sometimes agreeing and sometimes disagreeing. And that's okay.
• 20:08
  Doesn't mean that there's a winner and a loser. It means that we are engaging.
• 20:11
  If we're engaging, it means we're alive and we're kicking and we're just in
• 20:15
  a big part of this whole rich, complex human experience.
• 20:19
  That's a positive thing. So the next time you bump into that black or white
• 20:22
  thinking, that all or nothing thinking, remember that the world is actually
• 20:25
  full of a lot of colors and it's those colors with their shades and their nuances
• 20:28
  that really do make life interesting.
• 20:31
  So the acceptance that we are all having a different experience,
• 20:35
  but we can have shared experiences is absolutely a sign of maturity.
• 20:39
  And it can also be a game changer in a relationship.
• 20:42
  Another person just said, all this is just so, so familiar to me.
• 20:46
  If I disagreed with him, I was insulting his intelligence.
• 20:49
  And she said, this is just so messed up. And when I look back on it from a distance,
• 20:53
  And I wanted to address that quickly.
• 20:56
  It's the concept about rumination, because that's something that already in
• 21:00
  the sessions that I've done today before recording this podcast,
• 21:02
  there's been a theme of people ruminating on the past, beating themselves up for, why didn't I know?
• 21:06
  I can't believe I let this happen. But ruminating on the past interactions,
• 21:10
  especially those moments in hindsight that really feel messed up,
• 21:13
  it's absolutely normal to look back and think, man, what was going on there
• 21:16
  now that you're starting to
• 21:18
  see this bigger picture? But here's the thing that I can't convey enough.
• 21:21
  As much as we go over and over those moments in our minds, it doesn't really
• 21:24
  help us move forward. In fact, it's pretty unproductive because we keep thinking
• 21:28
  that if we can figure out the past, if we can make sense of the past,
• 21:32
  then we're going to be able to predict and make sense of the future.
• 21:34
  And we're still wanting certainty because that will make us feel more calm.
• 21:39
  But then that wanting certainty can often change.
• 21:43
  Cause us to try to control more. Because if I can control people,
• 21:47
  control my environment, control everything, then I've got my best chance at certainty.
• 21:50
  But I'm not living the human experience. And I'm certainly not letting other
• 21:54
  people find out who they are, becoming the best version of themselves.
• 21:57
  I think about that in a parenting standpoint.
• 22:00
  Hey, I think that this is what my kid needs to do. I think this is the subjects
• 22:03
  they need to study. I think this is the career path that I think that they would like.
• 22:07
  It's a lot of me in there. And if I'm doing it, even if I think it's a,
• 22:11
  yeah, but I want what's best for them.
• 22:13
  But really, I want to know that they are going to be okay, which makes sense
• 22:18
  as a parent, but that's a me thing.
• 22:20
  I'm taking them out of the decision of what they want to do with their life.
• 22:24
  And too often, the emotionally immature person then carries that into a marriage
• 22:27
  or relationship, and they're doing that same thing as well of,
• 22:30
  hey, this other person is basically here to do things for me, make me feel better.
• 22:35
  So then I'm going to control them because for some reason, I think that I know what's best for them.
• 22:40
  Which is a sign of emotional immaturity.
• 22:42
  Back to the rumination, because the things that happened, they happened.
• 22:45
  Those interactions happen. Back then, you did not know what you didn't know.
• 22:50
  So it's like you're trying to now solve a puzzle, but you don't have all those
• 22:53
  pieces. And now you're starting to find those missing pieces.
• 22:56
  And the picture is starting to become a little more clear.
• 22:58
  But the goal isn't to try to put that puzzle together. But it's just recognizing
• 23:02
  that I didn't have all the pieces.
• 23:04
  And I'm going to be more curious and open moving moving forward.
• 23:07
  Because it's huge to then recognize now to be aware of what happened,
• 23:12
  but then the growth occurs when you can accept that happened.
• 23:16
  And now what do I do moving forward?
• 23:18
  How can that teach me? How can that inform and instruct me on how I show up in life moving forward?
• 23:23
  So if you catch yourself ruminating or beating yourself up about the past,
• 23:26
  I would love to just encourage a pause, pause for a moment and just give yourself grace and compassion.
• 23:32
  And remember, you did not have the full picture back then, but now you're gathering
• 23:35
  more of those pieces, you're understanding more, and now you're making changes
• 23:39
  about what you can do moving forward. That really is what counts.
• 23:42
  So do me a favor, don't be too hard on yourself for not having all the answers from the get-go.
• 23:46
  This is part of that journey, recognizing where we've been, where we're heading.
• 23:49
  That is a huge step in the right direction.
• 23:51
  You're doing just fine. More death by a thousand cut stories.
• 23:55
  Another person said, last summer, I underwent surgery for melanoma.
• 23:58
  When I first found out about my diagnosis and shared the news with my partner,
• 24:02
  his immediate response was, okay, I'm actually the one who's probably going
• 24:05
  to get skin cancer with all the work that I do outside.
• 24:08
  And she said, it was astonishing how he managed to shift the focus immediately
• 24:11
  to himself right after I just told him about my own skin cancer diagnosis.
• 24:16
  She said, thankfully the surgery was successful and her follow-up appointments have been positive.
• 24:20
  But then just yesterday, the day before she posted this, she said,
• 24:24
  I excitedly told him that my latest appointment went well and everything looks
• 24:27
  good. And his reaction was, okay.
• 24:29
  I've had people talk about similar things where they've gotten a thumbs up when
• 24:33
  they found out that they're cancer-free from a text.
• 24:36
  She said it's become painfully clear that he shows no genuine concern for my
• 24:40
  health or my well-being despite.
• 24:42
  Almost three decades together she said i
• 24:45
  still find myself hoping for a different response but it's disheartening every
• 24:48
  time he shows me how little that i seem to matter to him
• 24:51
  this one is this one's really interesting she said
• 24:54
  every time we had a major argument he would end up driving himself to the er
• 24:58
  in the early hours of the morning she said i'd receive a text from him upon
• 25:01
  his arrival explaining that he went alone because he didn't want to wake me
• 25:05
  up but he was going through something his messages were vague only offering
• 25:08
  small bits of information information when I inquired about his condition.
• 25:12
  He mentioned things like the doctors being uncertain and ordering more x-rays
• 25:15
  and more blood tests, or even trying to consider should they admit him, should they not?
• 25:19
  And she's like, this would obviously leave me anxious and I would be on edge
• 25:22
  and unsure of the severity of his situation.
• 25:24
  Hours later though, he would text again and he would say, hey,
• 25:27
  can you come give me a ride home? Because in his words, the doctors were incompetent.
• 25:32
  So she said, I would go pick him up. Usually he'd start feeling better a few
• 25:35
  hours hours after we got home.
• 25:36
  Then he asked me, can you drive me back to the hospital? Cause I got to get
• 25:40
  my car knowing that I have back issues and that long drives are painful for me.
• 25:44
  He didn't seem to care or put or factor that into the equation.
• 25:47
  The round trip to the hospital was 30 to 40 minutes, meaning four trips in one
• 25:51
  day was physically taxing.
• 25:53
  She said those ER visits became a monthly occurrence for quite a while and they
• 25:58
  become less frequent now.
• 25:59
  Usually only happening when he's extremely upset with me, particularly if he
• 26:02
  doesn't get the reaction or even the argument that he's seeking.
• 26:07
  And she said, additionally, it became clear that these weren't true emergencies,
• 26:10
  as he would often feel significantly better just hours after being brought home
• 26:13
  to the point of now he could go out for the evening.
• 26:16
  So from ER to going out for the evening and those doggone incompetent doctors.
• 26:22
  So that is, what's the phrase? Something that really grinds my gears and it
• 26:27
  is perfectly illustrated by that last story.
• 26:29
  And it is this baffling and kind of insulting assumption that the narcissist
• 26:33
  or the incredibly emotionally immature person seems to make that we're all just
• 26:38
  a bunch of gullible folks who buy into any story, no matter how far-fetched it is.
• 26:41
  So then imagining that scenario, somebody dashes into the ER after a few hours
• 26:45
  of the medical team supposedly just all scratching their heads in utter bewilderment.
• 26:50
  This person just throws up their hands and says, oh, forget it.
• 26:52
  This isn't worth my time.
• 26:53
  Texts his wife come pick me up as then
• 26:56
  the modern hospital would then with all of its expertise protocols
• 26:59
  would then just let a patient dictate the pace and
• 27:02
  what to do and then just wander off because they're a little bit miffed because these
• 27:05
  doggone doctors don't know what they're doing and it goes back to that concept
• 27:08
  where the emotionally mature the narcissist truly believe that they are the
• 27:12
  special one whose mysterious condition has left the entire medical community
• 27:16
  in a daze it's like really so these doctors trained professionals who have seen
• 27:20
  it all would be completely stumped and just let somebody walk out in a huff that's kind of silly.
• 27:25
  And it's not just frustrating, but again, it's more of this insult to your intelligence.
• 27:30
  And I hear these stories often about what people say that they know about therapy
• 27:34
  that have not been to therapy.
• 27:36
  I've been a practicing therapist for 17, 18 years every day, not weekends.
• 27:42
  I'm saying that because now I can see the emotionally mature.
• 27:44
  Oh, really? Every day? Seven days a week? Is that what you're trying to say? Which is not the point.
• 27:49
  But when somebody has not been to therapy, but they want to explain to me what
• 27:53
  they think therapy is like, then that is adorable.
• 27:57
  Or I hear people say, that therapist or that counselor, they've got their own
• 28:00
  agenda, says the person who has no idea what my practice is about or hasn't
• 28:04
  even been to therapy or especially to see me.
• 28:07
  Because that is how special that person is, that they know more about the attorney,
• 28:11
  they know more about the doctor, they know more about the therapist than even the therapist does.
• 28:15
  And I don't even have to go to therapy to know that. So that is that sign of emotional immaturity.
• 28:20
  But it's interesting, though, because it just shows you the links that people
• 28:23
  go to, and a lot of it's subconscious, to then put themselves in the center of every narrative.
• 28:29
  I know, I know, and you don't understand, and they got an agenda,
• 28:33
  and you can't go see this one.
• 28:34
  I mentioned this on a podcast a week or so ago on the virtual couch,
• 28:37
  but it's this concept around having now seen close to 1,500 couples where a new couples therapist,
• 28:43
  because I was this at one point, will then sometimes question maybe one of my
• 28:47
  clients if they're interacting with them as an individual saying,
• 28:51
  well, wait, he can't see the couple and then still talk to you guys individually.
• 28:55
  Usually that graduate school said you can't do that, but then there's enough
• 28:59
  of us couples therapists that have been doing this for a long time that recognize,
• 29:02
  okay, that's what I know how to do. And I'm very comfortable in doing that.
• 29:06
  And so then if somebody is trying to tell me you can't do that,
• 29:09
  it might be a good idea to start with some curiosity and ask,
• 29:12
  what's that experience like?
• 29:13
  Do you ever find that that's difficult or what is difficult about it or at what
• 29:18
  point and how many couples and how many years doing this?
• 29:21
  Did you finally feel like that was something that you could do?
• 29:24
  Do and still maintain the integrity of the therapeutic alliance versus the,
• 29:30
  well, I don't think that they should be able to do that.
• 29:33
  Again, putting yourself at the center of every narrative and then expecting
• 29:36
  somebody else to follow along without question.
• 29:38
  We're moving to Arizona. I had someone maybe a couple of weeks ago spend quite
• 29:42
  a bit of time reminding me how hot it is in Arizona, as if I had never thought about that.
• 29:47
  And I thought it was really interesting because they just said,
• 29:49
  okay, as long as you know. So I do.
• 29:51
  And they continued on that narrative as if then now I was supposed to,
• 29:56
  I think during that session, call off the entire move. and try to purchase my
• 30:00
  house back and sell the house that we had bought, let the entire family know that's moved.
• 30:04
  Because this person's like, okay, I'm just saying it's pretty hot.
• 30:08
  So that person had inserted themselves in the center of that narrative.
• 30:11
  And it's adorable. It really is.
• 30:13
  Here's another story. Recently, we found out that my husband's mother had to
• 30:16
  go to the hospital due to some flu-like symptoms, especially concerning because
• 30:19
  of her history with stroke.
• 30:21
  And I naturally started asking more questions to try to understand the situation
• 30:24
  better. Hey, what was was wrong with your mom?
• 30:26
  But my husband just went and sat on the couch and started playing on his phone,
• 30:30
  ignoring my attempts to engage.
• 30:31
  I sat next to him in silence, trying to just think of helpful suggestions,
• 30:34
  such as ways to maybe we could get more information since apparently his dad
• 30:38
  didn't have any updates.
• 30:40
  And she said, I suggested a couple of things.
• 30:42
  The next day though, he criticized me for being cold and not offering him a
• 30:46
  hug despite my efforts to support him. And she said, feel free to use this story on your podcast.
• 30:50
  Also, there was an incident that somebody shared last Last year,
• 30:53
  when we were walking in the neighborhood with a friend, a car passed by,
• 30:56
  and my husband claimed that somebody in the car threw a rock at him,
• 30:59
  so he reacted by yelling at the vehicle, but the car didn't even stop or react
• 31:02
  in any noticeable way as it drove by.
• 31:05
  She said, my friend and I were puzzled because we hadn't seen anybody throw
• 31:09
  anything, and when I asked my husband to clarify, his story started to fall
• 31:12
  apart. I wasn't really sure if it was actually a rock.
• 31:14
  And she said, I suggested that maybe a car just kicked up a pebble or something,
• 31:18
  but he insisted, no, that was impossible according to his understanding of the laws of physics.
• 31:23
  However, she then found herself literally looking up the laws of physics and
• 31:26
  found that it was possible that the car tire could kick up a rock.
• 31:30
  But despite this, then her questioning turned her into the enemy in his eyes.
• 31:34
  And he ended up more upset with her than the supposed rock throwing incident,
• 31:38
  which nobody else witnessed in the car showed no signs of aggression or acknowledgement.
• 31:42
  And she said this issue years later still comes up and causes tension between
• 31:46
  us, that he never supported her during the time where those hooligans chucked
• 31:50
  those giant boulders from the passing by car.
• 31:54
  Another person said during the love bombing phase, he constantly complimented
• 31:57
  my appearance, never missing a chance to comment on my beauty.
• 32:00
  However, that eventually ceased. And she said sometimes seeking reassurance,
• 32:03
  I would ask, do you still think I'm pretty or are you still attracted to me?
• 32:06
  And rather than offering reassurance, his responses were eye rolls or dismissive
• 32:10
  comments like, well, if you don't know, then I think that's on you.
• 32:15
  And she said, for me, the most significant pain points have been the unfulfilled
• 32:18
  promises that he's left all responsibilities and burdens to me,
• 32:22
  offering no assistance with the kids, household chores, financial support.
• 32:26
  She said, it's watching me struggle without offering any help.
• 32:28
  Then somebody else said, oh my gosh, I experienced that too.
• 32:31
  And then he would also say, you would be so much more attractive if you'd fill
• 32:35
  in the blank, which he said, usually lose weight.
• 32:38
  Another person responded and said, totally agree with leaving all the burdens
• 32:41
  and responsibility of the house. I couldn't ask him to help because he didn't
• 32:45
  like authority, so he would fight against it.
• 32:46
  I couldn't expect him to do anything without being asked because how was he
• 32:50
  supposed to know that things needed to be done?
• 32:52
  But then if I did it myself, then I was being passive-aggressive by doing it around him.
• 32:56
  So I ended up doing a lot of the housework when he wasn't around so he wouldn't
• 33:00
  feel bad that he was sitting on the sofa while he did it, which then prompted
• 33:05
  him to say I didn't do anything because he never saw it.
• 33:10
  Another person said, absolutely, or making me feel guilty for doing housework
• 33:13
  instead of sitting around like him. He would get mad because then I'm not spending time with him.
• 33:18
  If I'm upset, the house is a mess, then that's on me because he's not expecting
• 33:22
  it. So darned if you do, darned if you don't.
• 33:25
  Another person, yes, in all capital letters. And if he ever had anything to
• 33:28
  do, mow the lawn, for example, he complained that he was never home and he just
• 33:32
  wanted to relax and be with the kids.
• 33:33
  And it wasn't fair of me to ask him to spend time away from them on his one day off.
• 33:38
  Sympathy grab. I just, I put a little note in there when I was reading through
• 33:41
  these, moms never have the day off.
• 33:44
  And then someone responded and said, were we married to the same man?
• 33:48
  And my first thought was, this week on the Jerry Springer Show?
• 33:52
  Yes, in fact, they were. And let's talk about something that's both,
• 33:55
  it's sad and honestly, it's all too common in relationships where,
• 33:59
  again, there's emotional immaturity
• 34:00
  or where there are more of these narcissistic traits and tendencies.
• 34:04
  And it's about these moments then when somebody shares something deeply,
• 34:09
  it can be really personal, something that makes you feel vulnerable,
• 34:12
  like when you're worried your partner might not find you attractive anymore.
• 34:15
  And I am the very first person to say that that sounded narcissistic.
• 34:19
  I am one who very much believes that self-love is crucial and that we need to
• 34:25
  find that acceptance and love within ourselves.
• 34:26
  And as somebody that's been on that journey of becoming moving toward more emotional
• 34:30
  maturity from emotional immaturity, it we definitely don't know what we don't
• 34:34
  know when you still don't feel comfortable in your own skin.
• 34:38
  And when you get closer to that place, then it is easier for somebody to.
• 34:43
  Tell you what they think you're supposed to do. And you can sit with that discomfort,
• 34:47
  be a little more curious, because ultimately, it's a you thing in a good way.
• 34:51
  But there are times if we're being real, where we are looking for that little.
• 34:55
  Bit of reassurance from our partner.
• 34:57
  You know, it is like we're sending out these emotional bids asking,
• 35:00
  do you see me? Do you love me? Do you have my back? Can I count on you?
• 35:03
  And it's in those moments, then that's where it feels like you are handing somebody your heart.
• 35:08
  But what happens then when instead of cherishing it or being grateful for that
• 35:13
  gift of somebody sharing their vulnerability or feelings or emotions with you,
• 35:17
  if they take it and then they scrunch it up and they throw it on the ground and they stomp on it,
• 35:20
  you know, when they use your vulnerability against you to control or manipulate, it's heartbreaking.
• 35:25
  And over time, this leads to a place where you just stop sharing your feelings
• 35:29
  with your spouse or the person that is in this emotionally manipulative or coercive situation.
• 35:35
  Why? Because there's a good chance those feelings won't be validated or even
• 35:39
  acknowledged. You might be nothing or they'll be weaponized against you.
• 35:43
  And then those insecurities that you opened up about that you finally felt like
• 35:48
  I can share with somebody when you're seeking reassurance from the one person
• 35:52
  who's supposed to have your back.
• 35:53
  When then that person then throws this vulnerability back in your face as a
• 35:59
  tool of manipulation or control. And that's a tough spot to be in.
• 36:04
  Because you start to realize that the very things that you shared in confidence,
• 36:07
  hoping for support, can and will be used against you.
• 36:10
  And it becomes this reminder of the importance of feeling emotionally safe in relationships.
• 36:16
  Because without it, we find ourselves holding back. We're protecting our hearts
• 36:19
  from the very person who should be helping us guard it. Let me get back to the stories.
• 36:24
  My daughter visited my house with a message from my ex about the dog,
• 36:28
  mentioning how much he missed the dog. At first glance, it might have seemed
• 36:31
  like a trivial comment, but she said, I'm thankful for the support of others
• 36:35
  in the group who understood the impact that it had on her.
• 36:38
  She said, it felt like a subtle jab at me, implying I miss the dog,
• 36:41
  but not you, and portrayed him as the victim to my daughter,
• 36:44
  suggesting, poor me, your mom took the dog away.
• 36:46
  She said this situation stirred up feelings of guilt towards him and frustration
• 36:50
  and sadness for her daughter.
• 36:53
  She said her daughter then was unfairly placed in the middle.
• 36:55
  And she said it also felt like an intrusion into the new space that she's been
• 36:58
  trying to create for herself to move on and heal.
• 37:01
  Let me just address that for a second, too. I think what is really difficult
• 37:05
  is people get into these situations of where there is going to be a divorce
• 37:10
  and they say, OK, we just want to do what's best for the kids.
• 37:12
  And I will say then I think so often in that moment that people do mean it feels
• 37:17
  like the right thing to say in that moment.
• 37:18
  And that is what they want to do. But then you get out of that moment and now
• 37:23
  the first time that maybe one of the kids is complaining about having to go
• 37:27
  between houses and then the more emotionally immature person says,
• 37:31
  well, I wish it wasn't happening either.
• 37:33
  That's your dad wanted the divorce.
• 37:36
  And I think that can be a really difficult thing to put the kid in the middle.
• 37:39
  And when people will say, well, I'm just being honest.
• 37:42
  Okay. OK, but that's a you issue of being able to sit with that discomfort of
• 37:48
  wanting to express your frustration and anger.
• 37:50
  Do that to a therapist or to maybe an adult friend.
• 37:54
  But to your kid, what a chance for you to say, man, I know that that sounds
• 37:59
  hard, but I really appreciate the way you're showing up.
• 38:01
  And hey, what can we do? What can we do today? Because I'm just grateful to have this time with you.
• 38:06
  That is a big difference than, yeah, I know I hate it too, champ.
• 38:10
  I wish we didn't have to do this. But, you know, what are we supposed to do?
• 38:13
  Your mom doesn't want me back in the house.
• 38:15
  Because that kid, that is putting that burden over on the kid.
• 38:18
  This is a you thing and an opportunity for you to learn how to recognize your
• 38:24
  own frustration and then show up for your kid and show them that,
• 38:28
  hey, we care about you and we love you regardless.
• 38:31
  Small tangent there. All right, back to the stories. Another person said.
• 39:04
  When she couldn't and felt like
• 39:05
  she wanted to cry during the ride home was met with his cold derision.
• 39:09
  He would calmly demean me, call me ridiculous, pathetic, childish,
• 39:13
  and he would threaten divorce for my reactions.
• 39:16
  And then his calm and collected demeanor made it difficult for me to recognize
• 39:19
  the abuse for what it was, that she's allowed to have her feelings.
• 39:24
  And I appreciate when she's even saying that that concept of if his family is
• 39:29
  argumentative, and I think in his his position, there's a chance for him to defend her.
• 39:35
  Because if that is not who she
• 39:36
  is by nature, then who is he to then demand that or expect that of her?
• 39:41
  And this stuff tugs at my heartstrings, sounding dramatic, because it brings
• 39:45
  us back to that fundamental reason why we often feel like we can't freely express our emotions.
• 39:49
  Again, our emotions are there for a very crucial reason.
• 39:52
  They help us understand ourselves better. Because from a young age,
• 39:56
  even the most well-intentioned parents aim to teach their kids the difference
• 39:59
  between right and wrong, but we're kids and we're just being kids and exploring
• 40:03
  the world in our very unique, messy, loud ways.
• 40:08
  And if the kid is frequently met with corrections and critiques,
• 40:12
  which again, even I know I did a lot of that is when my kids were little,
• 40:16
  because we do, we really want to protect their kids.
• 40:19
  We want to try to teach them these meaningful lessons.
• 40:21
  But so often we do that at the expense of being able to just be there for them,
• 40:26
  provide Provide that secure attachment and not this feeling that they are not
• 40:30
  doing it right when it is life or that they there's this conditional love that's
• 40:35
  attached that if they don't do it the way that I want them to,
• 40:37
  then I will not be happy or I will not give them validation.
• 40:41
  So, we so often meet our kids with the, you know, hey, we don't say that,
• 40:46
  or why did you do that, or use a softer voice, or speak up, I can't hear you,
• 40:49
  and it doesn't matter how you do it, just as long as you do it,
• 40:52
  except for why did you do it that way, and what were you thinking,
• 40:54
  and you should have known better.
• 40:55
  So, over time, that constant feedback starts to lead a kid to believe that simply
• 40:59
  being themselves is not acceptable, and their emotions, if they express them,
• 41:04
  apparently are wrong. So they start to internalize those emotions.
• 41:08
  They become more reactive, feeling like they need somebody else to validate
• 41:11
  their actions or tell them that it's okay to feel a certain way.
• 41:14
  And that's a tough cycle where just being yourself starts to feel like somehow it's wrong.
• 41:19
  And this is why it's so important for us to understand and validate our emotions,
• 41:23
  recognize them as a natural and very essential part of who we are,
• 41:27
  because they ultimately guide us through this, the journey of life,
• 41:31
  of self-discovery, of growth. Okay, back to the stories.
• 41:34
  Another woman said there are so many instances that come to mind.
• 41:37
  For example, during disagreements, my husband often threatens to skip upcoming social events.
• 41:41
  This has been his tactic for years, but he recently confessed that he does this
• 41:44
  to punish me, hoping I'll feel the absence of his, and she put in quotation marks, support.
• 41:50
  Additionally, he's begun neglecting his duties as a parent during these times,
• 41:53
  refusing to take our younger kids to sports practices, birthday parties,
• 41:57
  and other activities that her child was looking forward forward to to punish me.
• 42:02
  She said, though, however, one of the most distressing incidents occurred during
• 42:05
  a family camping trip about six hours from home amid a minor disagreement where
• 42:10
  he was trying to control me and I resisted. He threatened to leave us at the
• 42:13
  beach near our campground and he was going to hitchhike home.
• 42:17
  She said this was particularly alarming given our heightened concerns about
• 42:21
  COVID at the time, which had led him to impose strict public safety measures
• 42:24
  on our family, including wiping down our groceries.
• 42:26
  So moreover, he was aware of these crucial details about our new camper that
• 42:31
  I wasn't making his threat even more concerning.
• 42:34
  And he made this threat in front of our then toddler. She said,
• 42:37
  I chose not to intervene, pretending to leave.
• 42:39
  He then actually ended up hiding behind a bush near the truck.
• 42:44
  She said a couple hours later, as her son and her were returning to the truck,
• 42:47
  he emerged and he was so frustrated that I hadn't sought him out or attempted to stop him on the road.
• 42:54
  Next, someone said, my husband openly acknowledges his hypochondria and frequently
• 42:59
  experiences both genuine and explicable illnesses.
• 43:02
  This often leads him to withdraw from responsibilities at our shared workplace
• 43:05
  and at home, opting to rest in the afternoon or retire early,
• 43:09
  even before our son's bedtime.
• 43:11
  Despite this, he prioritizes his workouts as part of his self-care routine.
• 43:15
  However, when I don't feel well, he still expects me to prepare meals for the
• 43:19
  family, handle the cleanup.
• 43:20
  She said, I've recently set boundaries around this behavior,
• 43:22
  but he attempts to make me feel so guilty for doing so.
• 43:25
  She said, he also makes me feel guilty if I want to prepare prepare a meal for
• 43:28
  friends who are either seriously ill or have just had a baby,
• 43:31
  arguing that it's not in our budget, even though we most definitely can afford
• 43:34
  it, or that it detracts from family time.
• 43:38
  I think this is an interesting one, as simple as that sounds.
• 43:41
  But is it because we can't afford it, or is it because it detracts from family time?
• 43:46
  And I often feel like those are those subtle instances where the emotionally
• 43:50
  immature is just trying to find the right button to push that will will get
• 43:53
  the person to react so that then he can jump back into that position of control.
• 43:59
  Another person said that her husband's an enthusiastic garage sale shopper and
• 44:03
  has found many valuable items for her home and family, which we might not have
• 44:06
  been able to afford otherwise. So she's starting out with a positive.
• 44:09
  She says, I'm grateful for his efforts and I try to show my appreciation,
• 44:12
  but if I express a desire for something new, like a sweater,
• 44:15
  she said, considering I literally haven't bought one in over a decade,
• 44:18
  he accuses me of being ungrateful for the clothes that he has found for me,
• 44:22
  suggesting that he's already provided everything that I could possibly need.
• 44:25
  There's no curiosity or questions there. there.
• 44:28
  Another person said, after the holidays, my husband approached me expressing
• 44:30
  concerns about our budget being tight.
• 44:32
  He requested that I jot down every anticipated expense for the upcoming month.
• 44:36
  When I sought clarification, asking if this included the basic household items
• 44:40
  like soap, which she said fell under her purview, and no, I did not have to look that up.
• 44:45
  Okay, yes, maybe I did, and that does mean under her scope of influence.
• 44:48
  Then he confirmed that, yeah, that did. And she said, I found this request unreasonable
• 44:52
  given our financial situation isn't dire. We've had numerous discussions confirming this.
• 44:58
  So she said, I suggested that his request seemed more rooted in trust issues
• 45:01
  and then asked him to elaborate, tell me more.
• 45:04
  He then quickly changed his stance, claiming he thought that I was referring
• 45:07
  to, oh, it's a fancy soap, something that she says we've actually never purchased
• 45:11
  in the 13 years that we've been together.
• 45:14
  The very next day, he dedicated the morning and early afternoon to organizing
• 45:18
  a very expensive vacation with his extended family.
• 45:21
  He not only researched and booked an Airbnb, BNB, but also insisted on a $2,500
• 45:26
  deposit, a larger sum than any other family member, including his financially
• 45:31
  stable parents, what they had committed to.
• 45:33
  So this move, she said, was perplexing, especially following our recent conversation
• 45:37
  about budgeting down to the cost of soap.
• 45:39
  When I questioned the discrepancy between his budgeting concerns and his eagerness
• 45:43
  to book an expensive vacation, then he staunchly defended his actions.
• 45:46
  She said this situation felt more like emotional whiplash than the gradual erosion
• 45:50
  of death by a thousand cuts, but it's all part of the same troubling pattern,
• 45:54
  feel free to share the story as you see fit.
• 45:57
  Another person said, my husband often complained about me going to bed earlier
• 46:00
  than him feeling left alone at night.
• 46:02
  Last summer, she said I was dealing with severe nerve pain that made it impossible for me to sleep.
• 46:08
  I would leave the bedroom to sit with my heat pack for some relief.
• 46:12
  One night, and this one gets really interesting. She said one night because
• 46:16
  she left the bedroom and then came out to where he was, he mentioned that my
• 46:20
  being there disrupted his time spent looking at porn.
• 46:24
  She said he moved out at the end of that summer, coincidentally the day before
• 46:27
  I started a new job, leaving me emotionally distraught on my first day.
• 46:31
  Now she asked a very good follow-up. She said, by the way, Tony,
• 46:34
  I'd appreciate any insights you might have on how porn plays a role in emotionally
• 46:38
  immature relationships.
• 46:40
  She said, it seemed like my husband used it as a way to avoid working on our connection.
• 46:43
  He would then make me feel guilty
• 46:45
  for his porn usage, blaming it on my not fulfilling his sexual desires,
• 46:49
  which only made me feel unsafe about And additionally.
• 47:21
  Therapy model. We got the four pillars, or we're talking about acceptance and commitment therapy.
• 47:26
  But I also have a book called He's a Porn Addict, Now What?
• 47:29
  An Expert and a Former Addict to Answer Your Questions, which spent a couple
• 47:32
  of years on the sexual health and recovery bestseller list.
• 47:35
  And I have an online pornography recovery program called The Path Back,
• 47:40
  which is, it's an amazing program.
• 47:42
  I feel very good about that, helped a lot of people with that.
• 47:45
  And so, I do identify that porn is a coping mechanism that typically people
• 47:51
  turn to when they feel, I always say, a lack of connection in one of five areas.
• 47:55
  When they don't feel connected in their marriage, when they don't feel connected
• 47:58
  as a parent, when they're struggling with their faith, their health, or their work.
• 48:02
  And when those things happen, they turn to unhealthy coping mechanisms.
• 48:05
  Things like porn or work, alcohol, drugs, their phone.
• 48:10
  It can be a lot of different things to cope. And so then when I'm trying to
• 48:14
  help people then become better in these areas, those five voided areas,
• 48:18
  then they turn to those unhealthy coping mechanisms less.
• 48:22
  So when you look at the concepts around emotional immaturity,
• 48:25
  there is a lot of impulsivity.
• 48:26
  Maybe somebody that just doesn't like to sit with any discomfort,
• 48:29
  they're going to get rid of that discomfort by turning to a coping mechanism.
• 48:31
  So, a lot of times, I think it's safe to say that in these situations,
• 48:36
  the guy is not feeling connected in his relationship or his marriage.
• 48:40
  And how does he get rid of his discomfort? He pushes it off to his wife because
• 48:44
  he's not willing to sit with that discomfort or take ownership.
• 48:47
  And then what's the way to get rid of his discomfort is then turning to porn,
• 48:50
  but then not wanting to be able to sit with the fact that he turns to pornography
• 48:55
  and objectifies women or the concept of where it can warp somebody's sexuality.
• 49:00
  Sexuality and I'm just given such a broad overview.
• 49:02
  And I think this would be a great topic for a podcast in the future.
• 49:05
  But then in that scenario, then here comes that confabulation that I have to
• 49:10
  change the narrative because it can't be that I'm wanting to look at porn.
• 49:14
  It's because you aren't being intimate enough.
• 49:17
  We're not having enough sex. So again, he can't sit with that,
• 49:20
  take ownership of that. It is uncomfortable.
• 49:23
  Turn to an unhealthy coping mechanism, then confabulate the narrative that I kid, this isn't who I am.
• 49:27
  It's because of you. So, I think there's a lot to be said there that we could
• 49:32
  talk about in a future episode.
• 49:33
  And another person then said on the same thread, she said, yeah,
• 49:36
  I've had a similar experience receiving complaints about not being intimate enough.
• 49:39
  But when I attempted to initiate intimacy, I was rejected because he had already,
• 49:43
  and she put in quotes, sorted himself out with porn earlier.
• 49:46
  She said he blamed me for this, of why he had to turn to porn,
• 49:49
  yet he never made any effort to initiate intimacy himself.
• 49:53
  Another person said that she had mentioned that it would be nice to set a romantic
• 49:55
  mood, perhaps light a candle, play some music, but even these small gestures
• 49:58
  were seen as too demanding, which is very interesting.
• 50:01
  She said, honestly, it felt like he preferred to be left alone with his alcohol,
• 50:05
  his porn, and his PlayStation.
• 50:06
  He couldn't admit, by the way, that has to be in a country song lyric,
• 50:10
  but he couldn't admit his, this preference possibly due to deep-seated shame.
• 50:14
  So instead he blamed me for his reliance on those things. Again,
• 50:17
  he doesn't want to take ownership of that, sit with that discomfort. So it has to be her fault.
• 50:21
  And there's a person in the group that I just, she does such an amazing job
• 50:25
  responding and it's just solid.
• 50:28
  Here's what she said about it. And I think she's so spot on.
• 50:31
  And again, we'll still cover this in an upcoming episode, but she said many
• 50:34
  individuals who frequently use porn started at a young age during a critical
• 50:37
  period when their brains were developing capacities for empathy,
• 50:39
  compassion, and understanding others.
• 50:41
  Instead, their minds were inundated with content that objectifies and reduces
• 50:45
  human interaction to mere consumption of bodies.
• 50:47
  This can significantly hinder their their emotional and psychological growth.
• 50:51
  She said, it's important to recognize that you can't be held accountable for
• 50:54
  behaviors and patterns that were established long before you came into their lives.
• 50:58
  Such habits can condition their brains to view women as objects for their entitlement and use.
• 51:02
  And this skewed perspective distorts their understanding of reality and relationships,
• 51:06
  leading them to conflate sex with love.
• 51:08
  They fail to grasp the essence of true intimacy and connection because they've
• 51:12
  never learned to value another person in deep, meaningful, and respectful ways.
• 51:16
  So for somebody emotionally immature, porn is appealing because it's always
• 51:19
  accessible, demands nothing from them, and doesn't challenge their behavior.
• 51:22
  So well said. Another person responded, this is now a separate topic, separate thread.
• 51:28
  She said, when my therapist highlighted that a significant issue in our relationship
• 51:32
  was my husband's failure to celebrate my achievements, I brought it up after
• 51:35
  a marriage counseling session.
• 51:37
  His response was, well, what is there to celebrate or be proud of?
• 51:42
  And she said that left her so disheartened.
• 51:44
  For instance, she said he belittled my accomplishment of graduating with an
• 51:47
  associate's degree mocking it because it was from a community college.
• 51:51
  Similarly, he dismissed the significance of me giving birth to our children,
• 51:54
  stating you couldn't help giving birth and you didn't do a particularly amazing job anyway.
• 51:58
  Which, sorry for the mothers who heard that just now, because I think if guys
• 52:05
  had to have babies, they probably wouldn't be around. I can't imagine doing that.
• 52:09
  He trivialized births as routine and suggested I needed his help rather than
• 52:13
  acknowledgement or of pride.
• 52:15
  That's just wild. Another person said, despite both of us being raised Catholic
• 52:18
  and marrying in the church, he reneged on his promise to support raising our
• 52:22
  children in the faith after losing his own.
• 52:24
  This betrayal was particularly painful after we moved across the country for
• 52:27
  his career, a move I agreed to partly because he vowed to assist with taking
• 52:32
  the kids to mass, recognizing I couldn't manage it alone.
• 52:35
  Yet when I sought his help, he criticized me, saying it's really messed up that
• 52:39
  the religious person needs the atheist to get her to church.
• 52:41
  Now, ironically, he now opposes divorce on the grounds of our Catholic faith,
• 52:45
  treating marriage as a sacrament despite his earlier actions.
• 52:49
  And I think that's, I would imagine, because that's how the button that he can
• 52:53
  push then get her to then stay in the position, that one down position, so he has that control.
• 52:58
  Control another person said his insensitivity is extended to
• 53:01
  my feelings about my body especially in relation to his viewing of pornography
• 53:05
  when i expressed insecurity comparing myself to the unrealistic standards set
• 53:09
  by such content he insensitively suggested that there's a niche for everyone
• 53:13
  and i don't even want to give this the airtime but he said including grandmother
• 53:18
  things despite me being only 35 what an insult.
• 53:22
  She says that, and this is her pathological kindness, I would imagine,
• 53:25
  because she says, although he might have intended to reassure me,
• 53:27
  his comment lingers in my mind, especially when I see my stretch marks.
• 53:31
  She said, it feels shallow to dwell on this considering these marks are a testament
• 53:35
  to carrying, birthing, and nurturing three beautiful children,
• 53:39
  a sacrifice I would willingly make again, yet it's painful that their father
• 53:43
  never appreciated any of these sacrifices.
• 53:45
  She said, I'm sharing this as is, feeling okay about it.
• 53:48
  And I'm grateful that she felt confident enough to share that because that's
• 53:53
  not okay to say that and expect that to have your partner feel safe and opening up about anything.
• 53:59
  Another person said, you're welcome to use any of these examples as they are.
• 54:02
  Some might seem trivial, but they were significant in my experience.
• 54:05
  He frequently accused me of being mentally and emotionally unstable,
• 54:09
  especially if he disapproved of something I did or said.
• 54:12
  He often claimed I was upset when I wasn't using it as a pretext to be angry with me.
• 54:16
  He criticized me for not being sufficiently grateful or for not expressing thanks
• 54:20
  Thanks properly, not just to him, but also to his family and even to kind of
• 54:25
  strangers labeling me as arrogant and entitled.
• 54:28
  He was overly concerned about my posture, constantly telling me to pull my shoulders
• 54:32
  back and sometimes physically adjusting them himself while shopping.
• 54:35
  He accused me of being reckless with the shopping cart and obstructing other people's paths.
• 54:39
  He complained that my voice was piercing and hurt his ears, leading me to adjust
• 54:43
  my volume only for him to then say he couldn't hear me speak up.
• 54:48
  She said, this has left me feeling anxious about speaking up in any setting.
• 54:51
  He ridiculed the way I sit while driving.
• 54:53
  Whenever we dined out, it had to be his idea. If I suggested a place,
• 54:56
  he would either give me the silent treatment all night or criticize my behavior throughout our outing.
• 55:01
  However, she said this never happened when we went to a place that he chose.
• 55:05
  Eventually, I stopped making suggestions, but then he would complain that I
• 55:08
  showed no interest in our outings.
• 55:11
  I just feel like if you need to hit the back button a couple of times on your
• 55:17
  podcast player, and listen to that list one more time.
• 55:20
  And then just have that reality check in with yourself.
• 55:23
  Because remember, our partner, our child, our friend, they are their own person
• 55:29
  brimming with emotion and experiences and light and life and talents and abilities.
• 55:34
  But all too often, those who are emotionally immature or who display these narcissistic
• 55:40
  traits and tendencies seem to have, it's called an antagonistic relationship
• 55:45
  with those people around them.
• 55:47
  And while I am usually not one to deep dive into scientific concepts,
• 55:51
  the situation is something from biology called antagonism. And it's this idea
• 55:57
  where one organism benefits at the expense of another.
• 56:00
  So in the context of relationships, it's like the emotionally immature or narcissistic
• 56:05
  individual thrives while diminishing the other person. Which is just something worth reflecting on.
• 56:12
  That if one person can only feel better about themselves when they take down
• 56:17
  another person, then that is an incredibly unhealthy relationship.
• 56:21
  So if that resonates with you even slightly, then I would highly recommend that
• 56:26
  you reach out to somebody to get some help. because that itself comes from your
• 56:30
  own childhood wounding, a feeling like you have to control somebody into loving
• 56:34
  you. But you can't do that.
• 56:36
  You can have love or control in an adult relationship, period. Not both.
• 56:41
  So with that said, I...
• 56:45
  When I can take a minute and talk about what a healthy, mature relationship
• 56:48
  looks like, especially in contrast to those, the dynamics that I just laid out
• 56:53
  there, that antagonistic attachment style,
• 56:55
  it's in essence, picture two people securely attached, navigating life side by side.
• 57:00
  They are in it together. They're aiming for common goals. They offer and receive
• 57:04
  empathy and it's second nature.
• 57:06
  They don't have to question what does that person mean by this?
• 57:09
  And if they do, they can ask. and they are two completely interdependent,
• 57:13
  unique individuals that of course have different thoughts, different feelings, different emotions.
• 57:17
  And that's what is so attractive about the other person is that I want to get
• 57:22
  to know them and they want to get to know me. It's not that I want to control them.
• 57:26
  It's then being able to share the real, the true and the heartfelt version of you.
• 57:32
  And that starts to lay down the solid foundation of trust and intimacy with
• 57:37
  every word, with every gesture and everything becomes an opportunity for you
• 57:41
  to self-confront and grow and for you to find out more about what your partner's
• 57:44
  experience is and in efforts to have,
• 57:47
  again, these amazing shared experiences or to make you a better person.
• 57:50
  And yes, you will bump heads from time to time. Disagreements, sure.
• 57:54
  They're part of the package. But here's the kicker. The mutual support, that part, solid.
• 57:59
  The respect and love that you have for each other, it's not negotiable.
• 58:03
  Those are not things that are up for debate or they're not threatened by the
• 58:06
  rough patches. So this is what a cooperative approach to a relationship looks like.
• 58:10
  You're working as a team where empathy and all kinds of truth,
• 58:14
  vulnerability, affection, those are the building blocks of something that is
• 58:18
  genuinely profound and therefore lasts.
• 58:21
  There's no control, no manipulation, none. What I thought would be interesting
• 58:25
  to do is flip the script and then talk about what then one as an adult human being in a healthy,
• 58:33
  non-controlling relationship can be and do what they're absolutely entitled to do.
• 58:38
  Because remembering that your feelings, your actions, your decisions are absolutely valid.
• 58:43
  So I'm going to go back to that list. This is why I suggested maybe backing
• 58:46
  up and listen to that list again.
• 58:47
  Let me go through that list now of if this person is in a healthy relationship.
• 58:51
  You have the right to experience and express your emotions without being labeled as unstable.
• 58:56
  Your feelings are valid, regardless of whether someone else approves or understands them.
• 59:00
  You're allowed to feel calm and not upset, and you don't need to justify your
• 59:04
  emotional state to anybody.
• 59:06
  And if you're not upset, you're not upset, period. period.
• 59:09
  Expressing gratitude is beautiful, but you're not obligated to perform appreciation
• 59:14
  in a specific way to meet somebody else's expectation or to make them give you that approval.
• 59:20
  Your gratitude, when you choose to express it, is enough.
• 59:24
  Your posture is yours to manage. You're the only one who gets to decide how you stand or sit or walk.
• 59:29
  If you're comfortable, it's all that matters. And if you're not, then get some help.
• 59:34
  Shopping carts and how you navigate them, turns out that's your business.
• 59:38
  Moving through a store, it's about your comfort and convenience.
• 59:42
  It's about if you want to choose the one with the wobbly wheel,
• 59:45
  you go for it. It's not about adhering to somebody else's standards of cart etiquette.
• 59:49
  And your voice, literally your voice, is uniquely yours. Whether it is loud
• 59:54
  or soft or somewhere in between, you don't need to modulate it to suit somebody else's preferences.
• 59:58
  Speak in the way that feels right to you. The way you sit while driving should
• 1:00:03
  be about your comfort and safety, not about meeting somebody else's aesthetic
• 1:00:06
  standards. standards, suggesting places to eat, activities to do,
• 1:00:10
  or anything that involves decision-making in a relationship.
• 1:00:12
  Turns out it's a two-way street and you should feel free to make suggestions
• 1:00:17
  without fear of the silent treatment or criticism because it turns out your
• 1:00:22
  ideas and preferences matter just as much as your partner's.
• 1:00:25
  So in a healthy relationship, you're encouraged to be yourself,
• 1:00:29
  to express your needs, make decisions together.
• 1:00:31
  It's about mutual respect and support and understanding where both partners
• 1:00:35
  feel valued and they both feel heard.
• 1:00:37
  Another person said that they're okay with me sharing everything.
• 1:00:40
  The episode on death by a thousand cuts, she said, was a turning point for her.
• 1:00:43
  And it was when she realized that she had found the help that she needed.
• 1:00:46
  She said, can we talk about financial thousand cuts?
• 1:00:49
  She said, when seeking advice, I often encountered noncommittal responses with
• 1:00:53
  others likening their experiences to mine or advising patients or emphasizing
• 1:00:57
  the importance of supporting my husband through job difficulties.
• 1:01:00
  So she said, because of that.
• 1:01:03
  She said, I avoided discussing financial issues. I never initiated conversations about budgeting.
• 1:01:07
  After enduring gaslighting and playing the victim, he'd agree to a budget,
• 1:01:10
  but then never last more than a month. I did an episode a while ago on shelf life.
• 1:01:14
  He lied about his lunch expenses. He had fast food receipts and trash.
• 1:01:18
  He played the victim when I expressed frustration over his lack of full work
• 1:01:22
  days or concern for our financial struggles.
• 1:01:24
  He refused to seek financial advice or assistance.
• 1:01:27
  Job hopping was frequent, blaming the economy, bosses, or others.
• 1:01:31
  He ensured funds were available for his sports viewing. He failed to acknowledge
• 1:01:35
  the effort and humiliation involved in applying for financial assistance programs.
• 1:01:38
  She said, my birthday was typically ignored during his unemployment.
• 1:01:41
  He adopted a victim stance when I sought help from church leaders.
• 1:01:45
  Financial discussions were redirected to how they impacted him,
• 1:01:48
  with complaints about how budgeting highlighted his earnings and made him feel bad.
• 1:01:52
  His mother employed him for basement work, which she calls it,
• 1:01:57
  rewarding him with clothes, gadgets, while our family struggled.
• 1:02:00
  And he blamed me for being dissatisfied with his income, painting me as greedy
• 1:02:04
  in counseling sessions.
• 1:02:06
  She said, if I prepared leftovers for dinner, then he would make himself a different meal.
• 1:02:09
  She said, these financial challenges were just another layer of the complex
• 1:02:13
  difficulties that we faced, underscoring the emotional and practical struggles
• 1:02:16
  within our relationship.
• 1:02:17
  And another person addressed the financial control as well. She said,
• 1:02:21
  throughout our marriage as a stay-at-home mom, I had no control over her finances,
• 1:02:24
  which were entirely managed by my husband, including investments.
• 1:02:27
  When he sold a property and considered reinvesting the proceeds,
• 1:02:30
  I suggested buying a small vacation home for our children to enjoy during the
• 1:02:34
  summer, which could also be rented out.
• 1:02:36
  However, after viewing a few properties, he dismissed the idea,
• 1:02:40
  claiming it wouldn't be profitable, and instead invested in the stock market,
• 1:02:43
  where he unfortunately lost a significant portion of the money.
• 1:02:48
  She said, I was responsible for purchasing groceries, children's clothing,
• 1:02:50
  school pictures, and even furniture, but I could only use one specific credit
• 1:02:54
  card, and I was on a strict budget.
• 1:02:57
  The monthly bill-paying session was a dreaded event.
• 1:03:00
  Any overspending, whether by $50 or $500, resulted in hours of beratement.
• 1:03:05
  He blamed me for potential future failures, such as the kids not attending college
• 1:03:08
  or the inability to go on a vacation, questioning how I managed before we were married.
• 1:03:14
  My allowance, she called it, was $300 biweekly, from which any overspending
• 1:03:19
  was deducted as my punishment.
• 1:03:21
  This situation was so distressing that I would pretend to sleep to avoid confrontation,
• 1:03:25
  feeling utterly incapable and fearful of independence.
• 1:03:29
  Despite living in a $3 million inherited home, rent-free, the financial scrutiny
• 1:03:34
  over minor amounts was baffling. As I leave this marriage, I'm resigned to receiving
• 1:03:38
  nothing from the home where I raised our children, a place that actually never truly felt like mine.
• 1:03:43
  She said on one occasion while chatting with a neighbor, I decided to bring in the garbage bins.
• 1:03:46
  Typically, my husband's task is a kind gesture.
• 1:03:49
  Upon his return, instead of expressing gratitude, he criticized the placement
• 1:03:54
  of the bins, particularly the compost bin, which he claimed made his task more difficult.
• 1:03:58
  When I addressed his comment, he accused me of overreacting,
• 1:04:01
  asserting his right to dictate household operations because we were married.
• 1:04:05
  Another person said, you are welcome to share any of these experiences.
• 1:04:07
  They might seem minor to some, but then again, were profoundly impactful for me.
• 1:04:12
  She said, gifts became a source of disappointment rather than joy.
• 1:04:15
  The first Christmas after we were married, he gave me pots and pans and for
• 1:04:18
  my birthday, a vacuum cleaner.
• 1:04:20
  When my daughters excitedly chose a portable record player for his vast but
• 1:04:23
  unused record collection, his reaction was dismissive and critical,
• 1:04:27
  leaving them and me heartbroken.
• 1:04:28
  My gifts remained predictably uninspired, highlighting a lack of thoughtfulness
• 1:04:32
  and attention. Thank you for your attention.
• 1:04:34
  His behavior in public, like overly staging affectionate reunions with our daughter
• 1:04:38
  to garner attention, felt disingenuous and focused more on appearances than genuine connection.
• 1:04:43
  The daily interrogations about my activities and conversations left me walking
• 1:04:47
  on eggshells, creating a constant state of anxiety and humiliation.
• 1:04:51
  Rigid dinner routines and unrealistic expectations around household chores,
• 1:04:55
  like bringing in the garbage bins, were enforced under his critical eye,
• 1:04:58
  often leading to unnecessary conflict and criticism. racism.
• 1:05:01
  Comparisons to his late mother set an impossible standard, making me feel inadequate
• 1:05:05
  and undervalued, a sentiment that extended to his father's comparisons as well.
• 1:05:09
  She said her volunteer work, particularly her involvement with the Red Cross
• 1:05:13
  at Ground Zero, became a source of shame rather than pride under his scrutiny,
• 1:05:18
  leading me to hide this significant part of my life, even from our children.
• 1:05:22
  She said that had been a huge part of her life. Eventually, I couldn't mention
• 1:05:26
  any of my experience around Ground Zero.
• 1:05:28
  She said I put my hard hat and vest in a box in the garage and never mentioned it again.
• 1:05:32
  He made me ashamed of something I was once proud of. My kids didn't know about
• 1:05:35
  it until they were teenagers.
• 1:05:37
  They were shocked and couldn't believe I had kept that from them.
• 1:05:39
  They learned all about it in school and were very proud of me.
• 1:05:43
  His insecurities seemed to make them feel that my achievements somehow made him look less than.
• 1:05:47
  So he belittled me until I broke.
• 1:05:50
  Counseling sought as a means of healing turned into another battleground with
• 1:05:53
  his insistence on a male counselor and eventual dismissal of the process reflecting
• 1:05:56
  on his unwillingness to address our issues constructively.
• 1:06:00
  His accusations of a guilty conscience and dismissive apologies after exhaustive
• 1:06:05
  arguments left me feeling empty and questioning my own sanity,
• 1:06:08
  contributing to a decline in my mental well-being and my memory.
• 1:06:11
  The constant invasion of privacy and lack of respect for personal boundaries
• 1:06:15
  exacerbated feelings of anxiety and panic, profoundly affecting my sense of
• 1:06:20
  safety and comfort in my own home.
• 1:06:22
  So, she said, these experiences, while individually they might seem small,
• 1:06:28
  they collectively represent present a profound impact on my well-being and my
• 1:06:31
  self-perception, underscoring the deep and lasting effects of living in a controlling
• 1:06:37
  and an unsupportive relationship.
• 1:06:39
  Okay, I think I've got plenty more that we'll just save for the eighth installment
• 1:06:43
  of Death by a Thousand Cuts, but thanks for taking the time today.
• 1:06:48
  And hopefully you can see that through all of these stories and reflections
• 1:06:52
  that there is a bit of a silver lining that keeps shining through and it's about realizing that,
• 1:06:57
  yeah, Yeah, these people have faced these challenges that most would probably
• 1:07:02
  knock most people off their feet.
• 1:07:03
  But then here are these people sharing these experiences, whether it's in a
• 1:07:08
  group, sending me the emails.
• 1:07:09
  And as they're starting to put these pieces together, they are recognizing that
• 1:07:13
  they are surviving and they're starting to get stronger.
• 1:07:17
  And yeah, it's a bit of a slow process, but you really are right where you need to be.
• 1:07:22
  And you're doing as much as you can right now. And with that acceptance and
• 1:07:26
  hearing and taking in this information, it is starting to change the interior
• 1:07:29
  landscape of your mind or what it feels like to be you.
• 1:07:32
  And it's just a reminder that we're not just surviving these experiences,
• 1:07:38
  you're learning from them too.
• 1:07:39
  And you're starting to gather up a lot of wisdom and not just to even heal yourself,
• 1:07:44
  but you can also start lighting the way for others on this path too.
• 1:07:48
  Let me give a couple of action steps that I think are key.
• 1:07:52
  One of those is spend a little bit of time journaling, honestly, or self-reflection.
• 1:07:58
  Whether it's daily or weekly, it doesn't have to be in a narrative format.
• 1:08:01
  But I really feel like it's important to write down some of these experiences
• 1:08:05
  because your short-term memory is probably on life support right now because
• 1:08:10
  your whole brain is focused on trying to make sense of the nonsense.
• 1:08:13
  And part of that complex post-traumatic stress disorder is that eventually your
• 1:08:18
  brain is sending all its blood flow to the amygdala to then get ready for battle.
• 1:08:22
  And one of the areas that it robs is the short-term memory, the hippocampus.
• 1:08:27
  So it is important to write things down. I used to feel like that maybe isn't
• 1:08:32
  as productive to write down all the negative things that have happened.
• 1:08:35
  But when you start questioning your own sanity and thinking that things maybe
• 1:08:39
  aren't so bad, I think it would help to be able to look back.
• 1:08:43
  I think it could help to look back and see that, no, I'm not crazy.
• 1:08:47
  These things happened. And you've most likely tried to put a nice shine,
• 1:08:52
  maybe a matte finish, a gloss over a lot of these things that happen,
• 1:08:56
  if you can remember them at all.
• 1:08:59
  But remembering them is part of your healing and being able to recognize that
• 1:09:04
  my body is trying to tell me something and I can't just keep shoving all this stuff away.
• 1:09:08
  Jot some of those things down. And then over time, I think that practice alone
• 1:09:12
  can help you clarify your thoughts.
• 1:09:13
  It'll help you to strengthen your understanding of your own worth and maybe
• 1:09:17
  guide you as you're starting to set those boundaries that will hopefully eventually
• 1:09:22
  give you this place where it protects and helps you respect your own emotional well-being.
• 1:09:26
  And then find help. As a therapist, I think it's a great idea to seek professional
• 1:09:31
  help, but you can also find supportive communities, whether online,
• 1:09:35
  in person, that focus on your emotional health, your recovery from controlling
• 1:09:40
  or emotionally neglectful relationships.
• 1:09:43
  And that's where maybe right now we need to go for the validation or understanding
• 1:09:48
  or shared experiences, because that can help remind you you're not alone.
• 1:09:51
  And it can be scary to enter into a group, but it is one of the most healing
• 1:09:55
  things that you can be a part of.
• 1:09:57
  And then truly do look for that professional help if you need it, which it never hurts.
• 1:10:04
  And then remember that sharing your story, hearing others, that is part of the
• 1:10:08
  healing process. It is empowering.
• 1:10:10
  Let's wrap this thing up. It's
• 1:10:11
  okay to seek out those relationships that truly reflect what we value.
• 1:10:15
  Respect, empathy, mutual reciprocity, genuine connection.
• 1:10:18
  And then the acceptance that you're here and in order to get the tools that
• 1:10:24
  you're going going to need to become the very best version of you,
• 1:10:26
  you had to go through some of these things to then even know that you needed change.
• 1:10:31
  So it doesn't sound like a great sales pitch for life, but then now that you're
• 1:10:37
  here and that happened, and now you're on this path of healing,
• 1:10:41
  I promise that you just keep staying down this path and raising that baseline
• 1:10:46
  and get that PhD in gaslighting, get out of unproductive conversations,
• 1:10:49
  set healthy boundaries, and realize that there's nothing you can do or say that
• 1:10:52
  will cause the other person to have that aha moment or epiphany.
• 1:10:55
  And you're going to start finding yourself in a place where what it feels like
• 1:10:59
  to be you is you're a pretty good hang. It's a good time.
• 1:11:03
  Here's to moving forward. You're on a path of discovery, enlightenment.
• 1:11:06
  You are absolutely worthy of love, of respect, of being heard and valued.
• 1:11:10
  You are enough, period, end of story. You have everything you need already bundled up inside of you.
• 1:11:15
  And this life, in my opinion, is the opportunity to unlock all those those wonderful,
• 1:11:19
  amazing things that make up who you are.
• 1:11:21
  And while ideally that would be done in a mutually reciprocal relationship,
• 1:11:25
  we don't have those crystal balls when we're getting into relationships.
• 1:11:28
  We don't know what we don't know as we navigate life and then things come up
• 1:11:31
  and we have an opportunity for growth.
• 1:11:33
  Here's to that growth. Taking us out per usual, the wonderful,
• 1:11:37
  the talented Aurora Florence with her song, It's Wonderful.
• 1:11:39
  Music.
• 1:13:45
  Distance don't explode allow the understanding through to heal the legs and hearts you.
• 1:13:52
  Music.