Latest / The Lila Rose Show / E84: Overcoming Narcissism with Dr. Peter Malinoski

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E84: Overcoming Narcissism with Dr. Peter Malinoski · The Lila Rose Show

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  Narcissism is so frequently misunderstood.
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  The idea is that narcissists love themselves too much.
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  And the reality is, is that narcissists actually don't love
• 0:09
  themselves enough. If you get to the core of
• 0:11
  narcissism, what you are going to find is a deep feeling of
• 0:15
  emptiness and meaninglessness, a deep sense of shame.
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  It's really critical to understand that when you're
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  dealing with somebody that's got a lot of narcissism, those
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  dynamics are what you can see on the surface.
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  What's below that is usually a huge reservoir of.
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  Doctor Peter Malinowski, thank you so much for joining the
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  podcast. It is a pleasure and an honor to
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  be here, Lila. Thank you for having me.
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  So for those who aren't familiar with your work, with your work
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  yet, give us a little bit of your background.
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  Sure. So I am a clinical psychologist,
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  and my passion is really about overcoming the human formation
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  deficits, the things in the natural realm that keep us from
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  a deep, intimate, personal relationship with the three
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  persons of the Trinity, especially God our Father.
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  That's what I'm all about. It's all about overcoming what's
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  in the natural realm, the human formation, things that keep us
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  separated from God. And what is your clinical
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  background? So I'm a clinical psychologist.
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  I got my degree in 2001. So it's been more than 20 years
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  I've been in private practice for for what seems like forever.
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  And I've learned a lot of different modalities, different
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  treatment. And I've been really looking for
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  how can we ground, how can we take the best of what's out
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  there in the natural world and ground that in a Catholic
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  understanding of the human person.
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  So I've been in private practice on my own in solo practice since
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  2006 and was became a psychologist in 2001 so.
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  And then why psychology for you? Why private practice?
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  What is it that initially drew you to to the work that you're
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  in now? So I really wanted to find a way
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  to, to bring people together in, like I said, this relationship
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  with God, I, I experienced some trauma when I was in college.
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  So that's a, that's a big part of the story.
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  It was not only psychological trauma, it was spiritual trauma.
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  And so I really was also, when I went into psychology, like so
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  many people trying to figure out like what happened to myself.
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  And I also wanted to make sure that things that happened to
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  relatives of mine never happened to me.
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  So that was more of an unconscious motivation.
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  What was more conscious to me at the time was I really want to
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  find better ways. I really want to find ways that
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  are consistent with our Catholic faith to be able to bring
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  people, to be able to bring people along a journey, to
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  accompany them along a journey that would help them, again,
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  like I said, engage with God more deeply.
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  Because what I figured out very early was that any problems that
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  a person has in relating in the natural realm, any difficulties
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  they have in their relationships, they're going to
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  bring in because of their humanity, because they have one
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  life. They're going to bring that into
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  their relationship with God and with Mary as well.
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  Got it. Can you, can you share, you
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  mentioned and whatever you're comfortable with, Doctor Peter,
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  but you mentioned it was some of the trauma that you experienced
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  that really motivated your study and then seeing trauma in your
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  own family. All of our families, I think at
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  least extended families have some sort of dysfunction or
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  trauma. Is there anything more you can
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  share about that for people to understand where you're coming
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  from? Sure.
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  I got involved with, with an organization, a Catholic
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  organization that, that I think was psychologically coercive
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  and, and really problematic. And, and I, I was really naive.
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  I was, you know, raised in a family where there was a lot of
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  idealization of, of priests, a lot of idealization of, of, of
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  the Church, of the, of members of the hierarchy of the church
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  and so forth. And so, so I was kind of naive
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  and gullible and I was looking for something.
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  I was looking for a way to shore up my own sense of, of, of
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  well-being my own, that I was looking to find out that I was
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  OK. And this is what, you know, kind
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  of draws people into groups like this.
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  And so I spent about 18 months in a group that was, I think,
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  fairly harmful to me. And so as part of that, after I
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  graduated, I was like, I, I want to, I want to find a way that
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  that integrates, that integrates the, the spiritual and natural.
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  And, and so as part of that, I decided that I was going to go
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  to grad school and I was really disappointed with a lot of what
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  I had, what I experienced in grad school.
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  I mean, I was hoping to kind of find a mentor, somebody that
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  would sit with me under the banyan tree and impart wisdom
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  and so forth. At the time, you know, there
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  wasn't a lot of, of, of, of integration at all with the
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  spiritual realm. You know, that's become much
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  more popular in the last 10 years, 15 years.
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  But back then it didn't exist. And so I said, well, we're going
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  to have to create it. I almost left the whole field of
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  psychology because I couldn't, I, I was having trouble finding
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  that integration. By the grace of God, you know, I
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  did find ways to do that. So.
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  All right, well, there's so much to unpack here and there's so
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  many topics that I, I was looking at your body of work and
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  I was like, oh, borderline personality disorder.
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  That sounds interesting. Family systems.
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  Let's do that. One thing that is really a
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  buzzword right now is the idea of narcissism.
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  Narcissistic family members, spouses, significant others,
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  bosses, politicians. The word is thrown around a lot.
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  So I thought we'd start with that because I think it's
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  particularly relevant with this faith component about how
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  narcissism can also, or narcissists can find special
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  attraction in hierarchical systems, you know, faith
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  communities even. So let's start with what is
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  narcissism? So narcissism, I'm really glad
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  we're starting with what it is because it is so frequently
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  misunderstood. People think that and this comes
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  out in in definitions, right? So if you look at a definition,
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  even from the American Psychological Association
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  Dictionary of Psychology, excessive self love or or
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  egocentrism, that's a very common one.
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  The idea is that narcissists love themselves too much.
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  And the reality is, is that narcissists actually don't love
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  themselves enough and they don't love themselves in an ordered
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  way. If you get to the core of
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  narcissism, what you are going to find behind all the Shields,
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  behind all the defenses is a deep feeling of emptiness and
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  meaninglessness, a deep sense of of, of of shame.
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  It's really critical to understand that when you're
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  dealing with somebody that's got a lot of narcissism, that's just
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  those dynamics are what you can see on the surface.
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  What's below that is a usually a huge reservoir of shame.
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  And what what do you mean by that?
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  What is this shame? What does that feel like for
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  that person and where does it come from?
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  Sure. So, you know, the shame is
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  something that I've spent a lot of time talking about in my
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  podcast, Interior Integration for Catholics, episodes 37 to
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  49. There's like 12 or 14 hours on
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  shame there. And a lot of people understand
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  that that shame is an emotion, right?
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  But it's more than that. Shame is also this deep belief
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  that I am bad or I am wrong. It's different from guilt.
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  Guilt is I've done something wrong, I've done something bad.
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  Shame is I am wrong, I am bad. I am unlovable.
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  And one of the things that that comes from that it, the way that
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  develops is because there's, there's experiences that people
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  had that lead them to, to, to, to, to assume that the ways
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  they've been treated are because they're not worth much.
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  And so there's this, there's this constant effort to try to
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  shore up this really shaky sense of identity, this really fragile
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  sense of who I am. And that can lead to, you know,
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  all kinds of ways that are counterproductive to the person.
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  That's the terrible thing about narcissism is that it's, it's,
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  it's, it actually is kind of like an autoimmune disorder.
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  The ways that people with narcissistic dynamics try to
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  cope with it actually set them further behind their objectives
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  because they wind up attempting to, to use other people to
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  affirm them to, to again, have these external infusions of the
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  sense that I'm OK. And, and in doing that, they
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  wind up alienating people and putting themselves further
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  behind in terms of this, in terms of actual relational
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  connection. And so shame, shame has this
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  effect. And Brene Brown's done a lot of
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  work on this, this effect of inhibiting us.
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  It's a signal that we shouldn't, we shouldn't, you know, kind of
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  step out and it's, and it's, and it can be really, really
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  destructive for folks that for all of us really.
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  I think it's at the core of other psychological disorders as
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  well. But what happens is that other
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  people get used to try to counteract the shame, but in a
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  way where the the person with narcissistic dynamics is not
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  acknowledging that they have these these needs.
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  at Good Ranchers scom. So how what makes the
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  narcissist? I've heard people say in
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  clinical practice that we don't know.
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  I've heard others say, you know, childhood neglect or trauma.
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  And I've heard others say that it's somehow biological.
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  You know, it's something else. What?
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  What's your take on that? So I think it has a lot more to
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  do with there there is some implication of biology, but it's
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  really more like a a propensity or proclivity, right?
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  It's not, it's not something that's determined like Trizeny
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  21. If you have Trizeny 21, you're
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  going to have Down syndrome. It's, it's, it's determined.
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  The, the, the genetic effects aren't actually all that strong.
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  I what I see is so much of it has to do with what happens very
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  early in a person's life. Are they seen, heard, known,
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  understood? Are they recognized as a
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  separate individual? Are they, is there, is there, is
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  there a sense that they are, that they're ontologically good,
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  that they're good in their essence?
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  And when that's missing, when, for example, there is emotional
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  neglect, when the person with narcissistic dynamics had a
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  childhood where nobody ever looked at them as the apple of
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  their eye, where they weren't cherished, where they weren't
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  rejoiced in, where they weren't loved, then then you're setting
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  the stage for this walling off of all of these integrity needs.
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  There's six primary integrity needs that that we have.
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  And those are the ones that those with narcissist dynamics
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  really don't want to acknowledge.
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  It's the reason why they have difficulty with gratitude, for
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  example, or they have difficulty with remorse is because when you
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  are grateful or when you have to say you're sorry, you're
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  admitting that you have a need. You haven't you.
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  And and their sense of self is so fragile that that would be so
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  disruptive that they risk a kind of decompensation or
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  destabilization. OK.
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  You mentioned these integrity needs.
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  What are those? So there's really, if you want
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  to understand almost everything in the Diagnostic and
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  Statistical Manual 5, we're now in the the the revision of that
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  all of those, all of those diagnosis are pretty much just
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  symptom constellations. They're really not the actual
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  disorders, they're just symptom profiles.
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  When, when I, when I look at a person and I look at what
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  they're struggling with in the natural realm, there's 12 needs,
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  there's six attachment needs and six integrity needs.
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  And and you had a guest. I'm true.
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  Remember Julie Venano was on in November.
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  She would, she did a great job of kind of discussing the
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  attachment needs. Those are the ones about
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  relationship. The integrity needs are not so
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  much about people might be thinking moral integrity.
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  We're actually talking about like cohesion.
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  We're like talking preserving, like the integrity of, of, of
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  our sense of self. That's what I'm talking about
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  with that. The first one is survival.
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  That's that's the need to exist. That's the need to survive.
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  The second one is importance. My need to matter in the world
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  to be significant and not in the eyes of somebody else, but in
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  more generally more like like I can actual I actually matter in
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  the cosmos and the third one is agency that is my need for
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  autonomy to be able to exert influence on others and to make
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  at least a small difference in the world and then this is the
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  critical one for narcissists those that are struggling with
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  narcissism is goodness. My need to be good in my
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  essence, in my person right to experience a sense of
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  ontological goodness. Not just that my actions are
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  functionally useful to somebody else.
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  Because typically you will see folks that develop narcissistic
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  dynamics as having been narcissistic extensions of other
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  people with narcissistic dynamics like they've been
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  exploited and used. The fifth one, I need
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  permission, purpose, and a vision to guide my life.
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  And the 6th 1 authentic expression that is my need to
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  share and communicate with others what feels true and real
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  within me rather than pretend otherwise.
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  So what you're dealing with, with somebody with with
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  narcissist dynamics, is this, this, this effort to recruit
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  from other people enough idealization, enough
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  affirmation, enough putting them up on a pedestal so that they
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  can begin to hope to believe that that actually is true.
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  And most of this is really going on outside of conscious
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  awareness. They don't know they're doing
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  it, which makes, which is another layer of difficulty with
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  this. So would it be accurate to say,
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  Doctor Peter, that if there's a child that their parents, you
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  mentioned emotional neglect earlier.
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  I think their parents did not really see them celebrate them.
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  You know, they had their needs, physical needs met.
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  Maybe they even went to some of the best schools or they had,
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  you know, good education. But they never really felt like
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  their parents loved them for them and took time for them.
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  There was always an agenda or the parents were really
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  preoccupied. That would be a, you know,
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  potential perfect storm for the making of a narcissist.
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  Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Especially if if they were being
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  recruited or used in that way for the parents.
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  So in other words, it's really important that you get good
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  grades. It's really important that you
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  get into an Ivy League school. It's really important that, you
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  know, that we that we don't have, you know, any disciplinary
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  problems at school because it reflects badly on the family,
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  that kind of thing. So what are what are your what's
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  your take on, you know, the whole phenomenon of child
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  influencers, these kids who sometimes from birth or even
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  before birth are basically, you know, to put it maybe in
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  crassly, but props in the parents, you know, entertainment
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  sharing, you know, play out that they're going live before the
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  public with and they actually monetize their child and they
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  need their child to be cute and entertaining enough wearing the,
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  you know, new enough outfits, whatever it is to monetize their
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  social media videos. I mean, I think, I think there's
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  a lot of risk with that. You know, it's hard to know in
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  any given situation, but so often when you are into, you
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  know, influencers and and folks that are heavily into social
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  media, yeah, I mean, that's a way to try to replace authentic
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  relatedness. It's a, it's a way to
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  substitute, you know, the likes and the and the clicks and the
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  downloads and all of that are a way to substitute for real human
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  connection. And it always leaves when
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  starving. You're not going to get your
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  needs met that way. So do you think there's a lot
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  of, you know, maybe predominantly more narcissism
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  among, say, people who are child actors or not necessarily?
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  It all depends on how the I think it really.
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  Depends on the relational context.
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  I mean, I think there is a way for children to act, you know,
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  in in movies and television shows where their needs are met.
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  But I think if the child is starting to be instrumentalized,
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  you know, and is now important in the family because they
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  generate an income or because they shine a spotlight, a
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  positive light on the family or because the child is a prop for
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  the parents own ego, then then again, and that can be seductive
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  for people that are looking for a way to have a sense that they
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  matter in the world, you know, and so.
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  So, yeah, so the the question for me always comes down to
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  what, what in this particular child's life, what are, what are
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  the adults around that child? How are, what are their
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  positions really? It's not Even so much what they
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  do as it is who they are in relationship.
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  It's much more about the being with than it is about the doing.
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  So it's hard to find, Oh, if you see this behavior and this
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  behavior and this behavior, you know, you, you know, you've got
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  a trouble. It's really has much more to do
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  with how are we being with how are we being together.
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  Meaning for the, you know, social media content creator,
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  maybe creating content with their kids, it's how they're
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  creating the content. It's less about that the content
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  was created. Yeah.
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  And I would say yeah. How is it?
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  Is it, is it collaborative? Is it fun?
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  Is it, is it life giving to the child or is the child, you know,
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  now pressured to hit a production deadline, you know,
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  is there, you know, is there a need to make sure that we get
• 19:08
  this Christmas special just right?
• 19:11
  So we're going to, you know, we're going to do a 34th take on
• 19:13
  this because it didn't work, you know, the last 33 times, you
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  know, that kind of thing. So.
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  So would you say that narcissism is some kind of a spectrum where
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  some people have it more intensely than others?
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  And would you also say that everybody, because we all
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  sometimes struggle with shame or with seeking validation
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  excessively from others at certain times, then that would
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  mean we all have narcissistic tendencies.
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  Yeah. I mean, I think when you get
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  into tendencies, are there ways in which we might idealize and
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  devalue? Are there ways in which
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  defensively we might protect ourselves when we're feeling
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  vulnerable? Sure.
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  You know, is that narcissism? You know, I don't, you know, I
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  don't know. I mean, I think we're all prone
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  to, to some self absorption. I think there's a wide variety
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  of, of different symptomatic expressions of us not having
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  needs met or us not not flourishing.
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  But I do think that there's enough narcissism, if you want
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  to frame it that way in each of us, that if we want to
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  understand it more deeply from a personal experience, we can.
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  So then the next question is, you know, how does one know?
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  I again, I hear the kind of the name narcissist thrown out
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  frequently, you know, in the public discourse and then
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  sometimes in private conversations or you go to
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  Reddit. It's like, am I dating a
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  narcissist? How do you know this?
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  Is somebody OK who struggles with self absorption or some
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  wounding or some shame and bad habits of behavior and
• 20:41
  relationship with others versus this is I'm dealing with a
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  narcissist clinically? Speaking well, typically in in
• 20:47
  dating relationships, you won't know right away you know it
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  because this stuff gets hidden, right?
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  And a lot of it has to do with, especially in like dating
• 20:57
  relationships, what are the needs that each person is trying
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  to meet. A lot of dating, this may sound
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  somewhat cynical, but a lot of dating and romantic
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  relationships are driven by sort of complementary pathologies.
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  You know, it's a, it's a sort of like he's missing his left leg
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  and she's missing her right leg. And so let's bind ourselves
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  together and we can sort of limp through life.
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  And really what I would want is that, you know, both people are
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  able to sort of stand independently, but there is this
• 21:22
  idea of, you know, you complete me, you know, you provide me
• 21:26
  what I need. That's, that's a lot of what's
• 21:28
  happening when people are attracted to each other.
• 21:30
  People are generally attracted to each other at about the same
• 21:33
  level of psychological maturation, developmental
• 21:38
  maturity. I would.
• 21:40
  One person right there, I got to interject here because that's
• 21:43
  such a, an incredible point you just made.
• 21:46
  So for the person who says, oh, I keep dating these narcissists
• 21:49
  or I keep dating these losers, you know what the heck?
• 21:53
  What you sounds like you're saying is that's actually a
• 21:55
  reflection on their own emotional and psychological
• 21:57
  maturity. You know that you can tell a lot
• 22:00
  about a person by the type of person they're attracted to.
• 22:03
  It's like a keys and locks, you know, kind of a kind of an
• 22:06
  analogy. A lot of times one person is
• 22:09
  more obviously symptomatic, you know, but you know, for example,
• 22:16
  the, you know, the knight in shining armor on the on the big
• 22:19
  horse that wants to rescue damsels in distress is generally
• 22:23
  in as much distress as the damsels are.
• 22:25
  OK, you know, but it's not so obvious.
• 22:29
  It's not so obvious. And so now if somebody's been
• 22:32
  married for 5/10/20 years, people can diverge as far as
• 22:36
  their level of psychological maturity because, you know, one
• 22:38
  person may be doing their work and another one isn't in the
• 22:40
  marriage and so forth. But at that level, typically you
• 22:44
  are, you are, you're, you're finding folks that are, are sort
• 22:47
  of, yeah, connecting in that complementarity that's
• 22:51
  influenced by the, the mutuality of the needs that they're
• 22:55
  seeking to be met in the, in the relationship.
• 22:58
  So someone who is finds themselves attracted to, or
• 23:01
  let's say married to, let's go right to marriage, who they
• 23:06
  suddenly wake up and they're like, I'm married to a
• 23:08
  narcissist. What does that say about their
• 23:12
  psychological state? And what would you recommend to
• 23:15
  them for how to deal with the situation they're now in?
• 23:18
  Well, that's that. That's a tough one.
• 23:21
  The first thing I would say is to do your own work, to do your
• 23:26
  own inner work. One of the things that I see a
• 23:28
  lot is, is the hope that somehow my spouse will change.
• 23:34
  Sometimes, you know, sometimes there's not much you can do
• 23:38
  about that, right? The the other person's sovereign
• 23:40
  over their free will. And what I recommend is that if
• 23:45
  you do your own internal work and that that effort towards you
• 23:51
  doing your own internal, your own internal human formation
• 23:53
  work. And that that that isn't about
• 23:56
  trying to elicit something in particular from the other
• 23:58
  person. If you're willing to do it for
• 23:59
  you and for, for the other people in your life so that you
• 24:02
  can, that you can love better, so that you can be flourishing
• 24:04
  more. That's really where we start
• 24:07
  where a lot of where a lot of couples are, are, are struggling
• 24:11
  is, well, I'll change. If you change, you know, I'll,
• 24:14
  I'll, you know, and I, and I'm a big advocate for, you know,
• 24:17
  sometimes the other person might not change.
• 24:20
  But what I would say is if you do your work, then you are in a
• 24:23
  much better position to, to navigate the difficulties in the
• 24:28
  relationship to see more clearly what the dynamics are.
• 24:32
  So, so one, one, I think the reason though, the, the, the
• 24:37
  word has gotten so popular is because there are a lot of
• 24:39
  people that have been casting about for a long time to try to
• 24:41
  understand their experience. So they run across something on
• 24:44
  Reddit or they, they, they, you know, they take a quiz on the
• 24:47
  Internet that says, is your spouse a narcissist?
• 24:49
  And it's got 20 questions. You can fill it out.
• 24:51
  They're like Bing, you know, then it's like, whoa.
• 24:54
  And now I'm beginning to understand something about the
• 24:57
  the the dynamics that have been going on in my relationship for
• 24:59
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  checkout for 10% off your order. So what would be some in dating?
• 25:58
  Let's go back to dating for a moment.
• 25:59
  What would be some red flags in dating to indicate narcissism?
• 26:03
  And I don't want to let one of person off the hook because I do
• 26:07
  really believe in what you're saying about.
• 26:09
  And it's effectively personal responsibility for one's own
• 26:12
  emotional, psychological, and spiritual health to not just
• 26:15
  say, oh, this is a bad person I need to get away from.
• 26:18
  But the red flags I see in someone else are maybe
• 26:20
  reflections of red flags in me that are different but still
• 26:23
  need to be addressed in a different in in their own way.
• 26:26
  Absolutely. Well, look, let me give you let
• 26:29
  me give you a little of my own history.
• 26:30
  All right, So let's go back to when I was 19 and, and, and
• 26:34
  dating Pam, who is who is now my wife.
• 26:37
  But we were young, we're in college.
• 26:40
  I had really significant narcissistic tendencies when I
• 26:44
  was young. And so did you know that?
• 26:48
  Did I know that? No, I, I didn't, Pam didn't,
• 26:54
  didn't, wouldn't have framed it that way.
• 26:57
  But in the, in this, this, this, this episode doesn't reflect
• 27:01
  well on me as a 19 year old. So I do ask the people,
• 27:04
  remember, it was a long time ago.
• 27:05
  I was young. Well, it's actually, this is
• 27:08
  inspiring though, because I think it's very rare that we
• 27:11
  hear that people can have narcissistic tendencies and then
• 27:13
  overcome and be self aware and get healing.
• 27:16
  So this is great. Keep going.
• 27:17
  So, you know, 19 years old and we're on a, we're on a, we're
• 27:21
  both students at Northwestern University.
• 27:23
  We went on this retreat together, this Catholic retreat
• 27:26
  through the Newman Center. And I, you know, I was looking
• 27:31
  for narcissistic supplies, right?
• 27:33
  And I didn't connect. I, I, I sort of indicated, you
• 27:38
  know, I can't remember how direct it was.
• 27:39
  But you know, Pam, let's not hang out too closely together
• 27:43
  kind of because I want to meet other people.
• 27:45
  You know, I was kind of like, maybe there's somebody that can
• 27:47
  meet my needs better, you know. And at the end of the retreat,
• 27:51
  one of the other Co eds asked SPM, do you know Peter?
• 27:56
  Like we've gone through the whole retreat and it was not
• 27:59
  clear that we were dating, you know, and because I was not
• 28:03
  engaged, not attuned, not willing her highest good, not
• 28:07
  loving her, I was out to try to fill up this void within myself.
• 28:13
  And there were other girls there.
• 28:15
  I didn't know them all. I, you know, I thought, you
• 28:17
  know, maybe there's somebody that and I, this wasn't
• 28:20
  conscious. It wasn't like having
• 28:22
  experienced it as though it was calculating, you know, or that
• 28:25
  it was, you know, sort of I, I, I, I didn't at the time.
• 28:29
  It didn't really see anything wrong until I saw Pam's
• 28:32
  reaction, right, You know, because she was really upset.
• 28:35
  Totally makes sense. If one of them and we've, I've
• 28:37
  told this story to my daughters, they're like, dad, we're not
• 28:40
  going to date anybody like you when, you know, when you were
• 28:42
  that age, right? I'm like, absolutely, I hope you
• 28:44
  don't. So that's a red flag.
• 28:46
  If you if the if the if the attention is really based off of
• 28:54
  the the the the self esteem needs of the other person in the
• 28:59
  relationship, that's that's a cue that they're not really
• 29:04
  seeing you. They're not really hearing you.
• 29:07
  They're not really engaged in a way where they can have a
• 29:13
  mutuality, have a, have a, have a sense of togetherness in this,
• 29:16
  you know, and it took us, it took us 8 1/2 years after we
• 29:21
  started dating at 18 kind of on and off again a little bit to
• 29:24
  get mature enough to actually handle the responsibilities of
• 29:27
  Christian marriage. So.
• 29:29
  Wow, but you figured it out. I mean, that's.
• 29:32
  That's inspiring, yeah. And you know, and.
• 29:36
  And so I've, I've got a lot of hope for folks that have these
• 29:40
  kinds of dynamics. Sometimes you hear that, you
• 29:43
  know, narcissist can't be treated.
• 29:45
  It's a very common thing. It's, it's, it's pathological.
• 29:48
  You'll hear, you know, that, you know, you can, you can treat the
• 29:53
  symptoms, but you can't get to the root.
• 29:54
  And I don't believe any of that. I think what happens is that we
• 29:58
  wind up just treating the symptoms and we don't actually
• 30:02
  get to those deep unmet needs, those deep unmet integrity needs
• 30:08
  and the deep unmet attachment needs.
• 30:10
  If you, and that's sort of like treating like if you were to go
• 30:13
  into the hospital and you had into the emergency room and you
• 30:17
  had intense abdominal pain and you had a high fever and they
• 30:20
  said, oh, you have intense abdominal pain and high fever
• 30:23
  disorder. So we're going to give you, you
• 30:25
  know, Tylenol to take down the fever and we're going to give
• 30:28
  you some kind of painkiller to, to address the pain.
• 30:32
  And then your appendix ruptures because, you know, that's really
• 30:35
  what the underlying problem is. They didn't do you any, they
• 30:37
  didn't do you any good. And so much of what we do in
• 30:40
  psychology is chase the symptoms.
• 30:42
  You know, we chase the symptoms. We don't actually look at what
• 30:47
  are the underlying, what are the underlying causes that are much
• 30:52
  further upstream. You know, if you address those
• 30:55
  it gets so much easier. I want to explore that now
• 31:00
  because this idea of treating narcissism and the underlying
• 31:03
  causes, like you said, some people say that's not possible.
• 31:06
  I mean, there's a lot of psychologist I that I've talked
• 31:10
  to over the years and psychiatrist and you read about
• 31:13
  it on, you know, whatever WebMD or here we go to a website and
• 31:17
  you're going to see that it says narcissism is not something that
• 31:20
  can be treated clinically. It can be managed.
• 31:23
  Basically, it can't be, it can't be solved or healed.
• 31:27
  So let's start with what does it look like to actually heal
• 31:31
  narcissism? And, and one other thing too, I
• 31:34
  don't think you've done Doctor Peter actually, and I should do
• 31:36
  this is, or I should ask you to do this for us is we still
• 31:39
  haven't, We've defined the tendencies of narcissism.
• 31:41
  We've said that, you know, there yeah, there can be some sort of
• 31:43
  a spectrum, but when do you know that you're dealing with, let's
• 31:46
  say, clinical narcissism? Is there such a thing?
• 31:49
  And then yes, how do we heal it? You know, technically that
• 31:52
  should be diagnosed by professional, OK, You know,
• 31:56
  'cause, 'cause that's something that requires.
• 32:00
  And if you want certainty on that, that's something that
• 32:02
  typically psychologists or psychiatrists would do.
• 32:06
  We can talk. Looking at like what are they?
• 32:09
  Are they looking at like a less of 10?
• 32:10
  Factors, unfortunately, I think too many of them are looking at
• 32:12
  the surface. They're using the DSM criteria
• 32:14
  and I think that that's a mistake because I think it
• 32:17
  doesn't get to like what the underlying, what the underlying
• 32:22
  need is. That's why there's a lot of
• 32:24
  confusion, disagreements, you know, sometimes the, the, the
• 32:28
  inner rater reliability of diagnostic, you know,
• 32:32
  impressions is low. It's kind of embarrassing
• 32:35
  sometimes to see how poorly we do this.
• 32:38
  But yet the, the phenomenon is real, right?
• 32:41
  So there's it's a both and I think I think it's really hard
• 32:47
  because so many times people are so good at hiding what's inside
• 32:52
  and you don't really have the capacity to see in there,
• 32:56
  especially when you're caught up in the relationship.
• 32:59
  It's so much harder to diagnose things accurately in your own
• 33:04
  family. Like that's, you know, that's
• 33:06
  the reason why, you know, psychologists like I just we're
• 33:07
  not allowed to to clinically treat our our family members.
• 33:11
  It's because we don't have anything like the perspective
• 33:14
  that's needed to be able to do that accurately.
• 33:16
  And so that's compounded when, you know, when there are so many
• 33:21
  other things that play in so much going on in the
• 33:23
  unconscious, so many things that we don't realize.
• 33:26
  So it's, it's difficult. I would say that a lot of times
• 33:29
  it's, it's helpful to bring in another person when there's
• 33:33
  conflict in a marriage, when there's difficulties, bring in
• 33:36
  somebody that's a competent marital therapist that both of
• 33:39
  you feel like you can trust not to be a judge or a referee.
• 33:43
  That's the that's often a role that you know, that spouses will
• 33:48
  want the therapist to get into as sort of an arbiter, you know,
• 33:53
  but to, to understand the situation from a third
• 33:56
  perspective and to be able to get that give that perspective,
• 33:59
  you know, so, so that's often really, really helpful because
• 34:03
  it's so easy for the for the wagon wheels to get back in the
• 34:05
  same old ruts and to for the cycles to kind of continue so.
• 34:09
  Well, you've mentioned a few things.
• 34:10
  You've mentioned, you know, the inability to feel remorse,
• 34:13
  you've mentioned, you know, basically using another person
• 34:17
  for self esteem and not really caring about them depending on
• 34:19
  the context. Like if I get self esteem out of
• 34:21
  you privately, great, but in public, I'm not going to give
• 34:24
  you special treatment because I'm looking for it elsewhere.
• 34:28
  What are some other elements then of, of narcissism just to
• 34:31
  kind of help classify this for folks.
• 34:33
  And then and then obviously we'll get into the healing.
• 34:35
  Sure. So the central tension for
• 34:39
  somebody who's narcissistic is this inflation versus deflation
• 34:42
  of self esteem. It's all about self esteem.
• 34:46
  It's all about do I, am I feeling, you know, am I feeling
• 34:50
  good about myself and like, can I look at myself positively or
• 34:53
  am I overwhelmed with shame? That's the central tension or
• 34:56
  the central preoccupation. The, the central emotions are
• 35:02
  shame, humiliation, contempt, and contempt is a mixture of
• 35:09
  anger and disgust and envy. These are the emotions that you
• 35:14
  will typically experience, not so much the shame because again,
• 35:19
  like I said, that's often really hidden, although sometimes
• 35:21
  you'll get windows into it. Like sometimes you, you might
• 35:24
  see a narcissist whose defenses are really down and then you can
• 35:29
  see an incredible amount of shame really quickly.
• 35:32
  But those are the central emotions.
• 35:34
  And then the belief about the self is I need to be perfect to
• 35:40
  be OK. I can't tolerate sort of any
• 35:44
  imperfections. Otherwise the the fragile
• 35:47
  edifice that I am that I'm constructing here totally falls
• 35:52
  apart. It's like a it's like a leak in
• 35:55
  the dike in that the whole dike's going to blow.
• 35:57
  If if I had not acknowledge that there that I have flaws.
• 36:02
  And then the belief about others, and this is from the
• 36:06
  from the psychodynamic diagnostic manual to this is
• 36:08
  more of this is a different diagnostic system that I like a
• 36:11
  lot better. That one is others enjoy riches,
• 36:14
  beauty, power and fame. The more of these I have, the
• 36:17
  better I will feel. And so again, it's attempt to
• 36:21
  try to take what's outside to fill me up inside rather than
• 36:25
  believing that in my essence I am good.
• 36:28
  In my essence, I am lovable. So those are and then, and then
• 36:32
  the central defenses are idealization and devaluation.
• 36:37
  So idealization, what is that? Well, according to the APA
• 36:40
  dictionary, idealization is the exaggeration of positive
• 36:45
  attributes and the minimization of imperfections or failings
• 36:49
  associated with a person, place or thing or situation so that
• 36:52
  the person is viewed as perfect or nearly perfect.
• 36:56
  Narcissistic folks will idealize others, you know, and, and then
• 37:01
  when those others fail them, when they fail in their
• 37:05
  responsibilities or their functions to support them, the,
• 37:08
  the, the fragile sense of self esteem, they will go to the
• 37:11
  other side of the coin, which is devaluation.
• 37:14
  And that is, you know, denying the importance or the goodness
• 37:18
  of somebody, cutting them down, you know, looking at them as far
• 37:23
  worse than they than they actually are.
• 37:26
  And so that idealization and devaluation is a, is a, is a is
• 37:31
  a tell if you will, although that exists in in other
• 37:35
  personality styles, other personality disorders as well.
• 37:38
  So it sounds like a lot of a tendency to yo yoing, you know,
• 37:42
  it's hot and cold, it's up and down.
• 37:45
  Do you think some narcissistic tendencies or narcissists could
• 37:49
  be confused with something like bipolar disorder?
• 37:52
  You know, I, I again, that's another symptom constellation,
• 37:56
  right? And I would say that those 2GO
• 37:58
  together because what what you see in bipolar disorder is, and
• 38:03
  in terms of the manic episodes, if you look at a manic episode
• 38:07
  and you look at a depressive episode, they are like a
• 38:10
  photographic negative of each other.
• 38:12
  You know, in a depressive episode, you have this really
• 38:15
  low mood and in a manic episode, you have euphoria, right?
• 38:20
  And so if you look, if you go down the list, they're like
• 38:23
  it's, it's not just a denial of depressive dynamics.
• 38:27
  It's a so much of A denial that it's the exact opposite, right?
• 38:32
  So, and when that happens, it's because the, a lot of times it's
• 38:38
  because they're something has tapped into a lot of unresolved
• 38:43
  grief, a lot of unresolved loss that's not been spoken.
• 38:49
  And so there's this effort to and again, it's unconscious.
• 38:53
  It's not like somebody says, oh, I think I'm going to, I think
• 38:55
  I'm going to go manic. I think I'm going to really Rev
• 38:57
  up right now. It's a it's, it's something that
• 39:00
  happens automatically. But going back to that yo yoing
• 39:04
  you said I love this quote by Brie Bonshe.
• 39:06
  She says a relationship. So this is the relationship with
• 39:10
  the narcissist in a nutshell. I think it's really like a
• 39:12
  little pithy quote. She says you will go from being
• 39:14
  the perfect love of their life to nothing you do is ever good
• 39:17
  enough. You will give your everything
• 39:19
  and they will take it all and give you less in return.
• 39:22
  You will end up depleted emotionally, mentally,
• 39:25
  spiritually, and probably financially and then get blamed
• 39:27
  for it. I mean, that that's a lot of
• 39:30
  the, the, the sort of dynamic, it's like, whoa, like what you
• 39:35
  know, and people begin to wonder when this is all breaking down,
• 39:38
  Like, why was I ever involved with this person in the 1st
• 39:40
  place? You know, kind of going back to.
• 39:42
  So it sounds like that quote is describing a cycle of love
• 39:45
  bombing to basically emotional, sometimes worse abuse, even more
• 39:49
  than emotional abuse to gaslighting.
• 39:52
  So you know, it's, but it's interesting because the person
• 39:55
  on the other end of it will assume that this is primarily A
• 40:01
  relational thing. And the brutal truth of his of
• 40:05
  it is that it's not the the other person that the fruit, the
• 40:09
  person with the Narcissus, the dynamics is not seeing you like
• 40:13
  it's not really about you. It's about their their efforts
• 40:21
  to try to overcome this, this devastating and threatening
• 40:25
  sense of shame. Like it, it's, it's so there's a
• 40:28
  lot less malice, you know, in this than people realize.
• 40:32
  Now, that doesn't mean that folks with nurses in the names
• 40:34
  cannot be malicious. Sometimes they will attack and
• 40:39
  and it can be really awful. But there that attack is even
• 40:44
  driven by by fear, by the sense of exposure, by the
• 40:48
  disappointment, by the way that you've often inadvertently
• 40:54
  wounded them, you know, And so when you see those kinds of
• 40:58
  attacks, it can look like it's even psychopathic, but it's,
• 41:04
  it's, it's a desperate attempt to.
• 41:06
  And I'm not justifying it, by the way, sometimes people are
• 41:09
  worried like, hey, you know, you're saying it's OK.
• 41:11
  No, I'm not saying it's OK. It's not OK, but it can be.
• 41:13
  It, it, it really is driven by the, the, the, the sense of, of,
• 41:17
  of nothingness inside. And that's what you need to get
• 41:20
  to if you want to, if you want to, if you want to heal.
• 41:23
  And it's unfortunately it's, it's certainly possible to get
• 41:27
  there, but it's, it's not common yet.
• 41:29
  I hope that in the future more people will, will adopt ways in
• 41:33
  which they can begin to address this.
• 41:36
  I think some of these, these new therapies that are coming out,
• 41:39
  relatively new therapies that involve parts are, are really
• 41:43
  hopeful. Because one of the things that I
• 41:46
  really like about internal family systems, for example, is
• 41:48
  that this, these dynamics are played out by parts.
• 41:51
  It's not all of the person, It's not all of the person, you know,
• 41:56
  it's, it's a, it these, these parts of the person are up in
• 41:58
  front. They're, they're, they're,
• 42:00
  they're guiding the person. They're they're they're, they
• 42:02
  have a lot of influence over how the person acts, a lot of
• 42:04
  influence over the person's will, but they're not the entire
• 42:07
  story, so. I have always had a hard time
• 42:10
  finding skin care products that I really liked and wanted to
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  What's so awesome about nimi is it's a beautiful brand that
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  shares our values. It's a pro-life, pro family
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  brand, but that doesn't mean necessarily the product is going
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  months ago and I fell in love. Nimi Skin Care has an amazing
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• 42:50
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• 42:53
  I think you're going to really enjoy their products.
• 42:55
  That's Nimi skincare.com and you can get 15% off your order using
• 43:00
  the code Lila at checkout. All right.
• 43:02
  So you mentioned internal family systems a couple Times Now.
• 43:04
  What do you mean by that? So that means a model of therapy
• 43:08
  that was developed in the late 80s and early and throughout the
• 43:11
  90s until the present day by by Richard Schwartz, who was a
• 43:15
  licensed marriage and family therapist.
• 43:16
  And he, what he discovered was that, that, or what he, what he
• 43:22
  identified is that when he was doing family therapy, when he
• 43:25
  was working with, with families, that even when the dynamics in
• 43:30
  the family were improving, in other words, people were
• 43:32
  behaving better towards each other in the family, those
• 43:35
  patterns were still like going on inside.
• 43:38
  The dysfunctional patterns were still going on inside of the
• 43:41
  individual family members. In other words, it was like they
• 43:44
  had incorporated it or they had internalized that family system.
• 43:48
  So that's why it's called internal family systems.
• 43:50
  And so he, he came to popularize a couple of really important
• 43:57
  things. One is that we are not just one
• 43:59
  single homogeneous personality, which is one of the reasons why
• 44:02
  I do push back also against the sort of narcissistic personality
• 44:05
  disorder or any personality. I don't think we have just one
• 44:09
  personality. I did this podcast episode #118
• 44:13
  of Interior integration for Catholics.
• 44:14
  Which is why a single personality is not enough.
• 44:16
  It doesn't explain enough. So we have, I argue, these
• 44:21
  different parts within us, these constellations of emotions of
• 44:25
  of, of thoughts, feelings, beliefs of desires and impulses
• 44:31
  that last over time. They're like, they feel like
• 44:34
  little persons within us, little personalities.
• 44:36
  With this, you can think of them as modes of operating and, and
• 44:40
  they exist even when they are forced into the unconscious.
• 44:44
  So there's this sense that we are one.
• 44:46
  In other words, we are one system, but we have these
• 44:49
  different parts. And if we begin to understand
• 44:53
  ourselves in, in that way, so much of this gets so much easier
• 44:58
  to, to, to deal with. Like in other words, we can, we
• 45:02
  can begin to connect with these parts, realize that, that it's
• 45:07
  one part of us that carries all the shame.
• 45:09
  It's not all of us, right? Or it's this one part of us that
• 45:13
  that Revs up and it's not all of us.
• 45:16
  So that's the one thing multiplicity that that we're
• 45:19
  both one and many, which for me was a huge thing because I'd
• 45:23
  always wondered, how do we love ourselves?
• 45:25
  Like, you know, love your neighbor as yourself?
• 45:26
  Like what does that mean? Like what are we supposed to
• 45:28
  love my body? If we have a single bunch of
• 45:30
  this personality? How do we do that?
• 45:32
  And, and then the second thing is this sort of systems thinking
• 45:36
  that these, these, that these parts interact in predictable
• 45:40
  ways amongst themselves and that actually we can, we can, we can
• 45:47
  work with them. And I was forced into this
• 45:50
  because of trauma work, because I was working with folks that
• 45:52
  had dissociative identity disorder.
• 45:53
  You weren't going to avoid dealing with parts in that
• 45:55
  situation. That's just an extreme
• 45:57
  manifestation of it. And then I started to realize
• 46:00
  other people have parts. And then I realized I have
• 46:03
  parts, you know, and, and these and, and once, once I realized
• 46:08
  that, so many things got a lot easier actually in my own life
• 46:11
  as well. So.
• 46:12
  So just to break that down more, when you talk about these parts
• 46:16
  of your say personality or person, your, and then you
• 46:20
  mentioned family systems, like how you show up in your family.
• 46:22
  How do you show up to your primary relationships maybe?
• 46:26
  And tell me if this is the wrong way to describe or try to tell
• 46:29
  you back what you just shared. It's activated, activating
• 46:33
  certain parts of your personality, but there are parts
• 46:37
  of your personality that can be very latent or sort of
• 46:39
  disengaged and they can get activated in other ways.
• 46:42
  And you may go your whole life with certain aspects really
• 46:45
  unactive and activated. And the problem with that is
• 46:48
  then you're not fully alive. You're not fully alive because
• 46:53
  you're suppressing something. Is that what it is?
• 46:56
  You're suppressing a part of you that you cannot find
• 46:59
  manifestation for. And so it's going to actually,
• 47:01
  and even if you seem there seems to be harmony in the family
• 47:03
  system, if one person is not showing up with the with all of
• 47:07
  their parts, even if there appears to be harmony, that's
• 47:10
  not a healthy system. Exactly.
• 47:13
  You can have a situation in which just a few parts have
• 47:16
  suppressed all the other parts, which is a really common, which
• 47:20
  is a really common state of affairs.
• 47:23
  Sort of think of it like a, like a ship, you know, with a few
• 47:27
  couple of officers on the deck and the rest of the parts down
• 47:30
  in the Brig sort of locked down because those parts are deemed
• 47:33
  unlovable, unacceptable, unpresentable.
• 47:36
  Those are the parts that are going to get rejected, rejected.
• 47:39
  If this part comes up, I'm not going to get what I need.
• 47:42
  So there are some manager parts, we call them manager parts that
• 47:45
  are trying to navigate day-to-day life.
• 47:49
  And unfortunately, you know, they do not have the capacity to
• 47:55
  take over that role. That's the role of the innermost
• 47:58
  self. We have an innermost self as
• 47:59
  well. And it's supposed to be like the
• 48:02
  captain of the ship or the conductor of the orchestra,
• 48:04
  where the different parts are like the musician.
• 48:06
  So if you think about an orchestra, we need all of the
• 48:09
  musicians, right, for the orchestra to be full, you know.
• 48:13
  But so often the musicians are fighting amongst themselves, you
• 48:17
  know, that they're parts in conflict with themselves and
• 48:22
  with each other and, and banishing each other, you know,
• 48:26
  and, and working out things in ways that are, are really
• 48:29
  counterproductive, that are really harmful to 1's own self
• 48:32
  and to other people in relationship.
• 48:33
  And so one of the things I'm really excited about is the
• 48:36
  possibility of how do we bring these parts together to work in
• 48:41
  harmony, right? How do we have this interior
• 48:43
  integration? How do we have what Saint Thomas
• 48:45
  Aquinas called this unity inside this interior integration?
• 48:49
  Because the way we love ourselves, Lila St.
• 48:52
  Thomas says, is the root and form.
• 48:54
  It's the template for the way we're going to love other
• 48:56
  people. And so it's not just an optional
• 49:00
  thing to love ourselves. It's actually essential for us
• 49:04
  to be able to love our neighbor and for us to be able to love
• 49:07
  God. And so, and I'll give you an
• 49:09
  example. I had suppressed, I, I grew up
• 49:13
  in some environments in which to show fear was to set yourself up
• 49:19
  as being like prey, OK, Like it was a dangerous thing to, to, to
• 49:24
  show fear. And so I went through the early
• 49:29
  part of my life into adulthood fearless.
• 49:34
  And I thought that was courageous, but it's not
• 49:37
  actually. It's just not feeling fear.
• 49:39
  So it was useful in certain situations like like emergency
• 49:43
  situations, crisis situations. I never dropped into a freeze
• 49:47
  response. I never dropped into a dorsal
• 49:48
  bagel shutdown. I didn't have any of that ever
• 49:50
  happened to me. Was able to take action and,
• 49:54
  and, and to be effective in those situations.
• 49:56
  I, I, I, I, I still like to chase dogs, like when I'm
• 50:01
  running, you know, and, and a dog chases me, I, this shocks
• 50:04
  the dogs, but I turn around and this part of me, I have a part
• 50:07
  of me, this is my former intimidator part who is now my
• 50:10
  guardian part takes over and I chased the dog.
• 50:13
  The last one that chased me was a Pitbull.
• 50:15
  You know, he came at me. I thought he was gonna and I'm,
• 50:17
  and as soon as I saw him off to the left, I ran right at him.
• 50:21
  He slowed down, he turned around.
• 50:22
  He wasn't expecting this. We have these different parts
• 50:24
  that can take over in different situations.
• 50:27
  But as part of that, when my 16 year old, when my son was 16, my
• 50:30
  oldest son was 16, he spun out on black ice.
• 50:33
  He was learning how to drive on 465 the Beltway around
• 50:36
  Indianapolis. I if and I was, I was just
• 50:40
  starting to get in touch with some of my, my fear at that
• 50:42
  time. And I wasn't able to connect
• 50:45
  very well with him yet in his fear, right, because I had
• 50:48
  rejected fear within myself. I wasn't able to embrace it very
• 50:51
  well in him, you know, and it led to, it led to a disconnect
• 50:55
  for us. And we worked through that.
• 50:56
  But but, but yeah, I mean, I, I, I said, well, you know, you just
• 51:01
  get back in the car, you know, you spun out, but the car wasn't
• 51:03
  harm. Just get back in, drive it home,
• 51:05
  you know, and, and my wife was again, PM was more like, let's,
• 51:08
  let's treat this a little differently, You know, let's,
• 51:11
  let's, let's have a little compassion for him, you know,
• 51:14
  but anything that we don't read, that we don't accept within
• 51:16
  ourselves, we're not going to reject with another within
• 51:19
  another person because it's going to start to activate our
• 51:21
  own stuff. The the biggest obstacle, well,
• 51:25
  let me not say that I'm not sure it's true.
• 51:27
  I was going to say the biggest obstacle to loving another
• 51:29
  person is, is not loving yourself.
• 51:32
  I think it's a major obstacle and it puts a limit on how much
• 51:36
  we can love another person. Saint Thomas says you cannot
• 51:39
  love your neighbor more than you love yourself.
• 51:42
  And it's for these kind of reasons you can't have a, a
• 51:45
  union with another person if you're fragmented inside.
• 51:48
  And that's the, that's the, that's the terrible thing about
• 51:52
  psychological disorders most, most generally is that we have
• 51:54
  this fragmentation inside. We don't know who we are.
• 51:58
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  off your order. So what would you say then to
• 53:03
  somebody who is in a family system or in a relationship and
• 53:07
  they, you know, they're operating, they're they're
• 53:10
  grateful, they're operational, you know, things are going,
• 53:13
  there's not perfect, that's life.
• 53:15
  How would you assess whether that person is really fully
• 53:19
  alive, fully actualized, living their potential, if they're kind
• 53:22
  of suppressing something to to keep it going and keep the peace
• 53:26
  basically? So the number, the number one
• 53:29
  thing I would look at is how well are they able to, to love?
• 53:33
  How well are they able to tolerate being loved and how
• 53:36
  well are they able to love in return?
• 53:39
  But that would be my marker. Now, that's not an easy thing to
• 53:44
  necessarily assess. And I did a lot of psychological
• 53:47
  assessment. I did did a lot of of, of, of,
• 53:51
  of, of assessments for the church.
• 53:55
  And it's hard to assess like a person's capacity to love.
• 53:59
  The more important something is, the harder it is to measure
• 54:02
  psychologically. But one of the things that I
• 54:06
  would do and I, I specialized in doing seminarian assessments,
• 54:10
  assessments for candidates for the the priesthood and religious
• 54:13
  life. Oh wow, that must have been
• 54:15
  interesting. Yeah, it was really honest.
• 54:17
  It must be interesting. Yeah, because these folks were
• 54:20
  showing up. These guys were showing up and
• 54:21
  not because they, you know, had some sort of psychological
• 54:25
  difficulty that they were presenting with, you know, but
• 54:27
  because, and I did other, I did other assessments too.
• 54:30
  I did like fitness for duty evaluations for the, for the
• 54:34
  Federal Aviation Administration, things like that, sensitive
• 54:37
  positions and so forth. So, but what I would do, and
• 54:43
  this was really, this is really helpful for identifying
• 54:46
  narcissism as I had a full length mirror up like a six foot
• 54:50
  mirror up in my, in my office, wide, tall.
• 54:54
  And I would, I would ask the candidate to stand in front of
• 54:57
  the mirror and look at himself in the mirror for about 30
• 55:01
  seconds. And I would stand next to him.
• 55:04
  And then I would ask the most difficult question in the whole
• 55:08
  8 out my, my assessment sticks between 6:00 and 8:00 hours.
• 55:11
  It was really, really in depth. I would ask the single most
• 55:14
  difficult question. So I've got the candidate
• 55:17
  looking in the mirror and I would say, who are you?
• 55:23
  Look at your, you know, the instructions he had to look at
• 55:26
  himself, which is an important part of this.
• 55:29
  And tell me who you are. Who are you?
• 55:33
  That was the one that that was the question that by far and
• 55:36
  away the seminarian candidates had the the most difficulty
• 55:40
  with. There wasn't anything on the
• 55:42
  extensive sexual in history interview or any of that stuff.
• 55:44
  Wasn't about talking that stuff. It was about who am I?
• 55:49
  And you got a whole variety of different responses that were
• 55:52
  that were diagnostic plus all of the other like the body language
• 55:55
  and the shuffling and the looking away and like all the
• 55:57
  other things that indicated how comfortable they would question.
• 56:00
  Would health be like looking at yourself in the mirror and
• 56:03
  saying I am a I am a beloved son of God or daughter of God and
• 56:07
  like with confidence and. It depends.
• 56:10
  It depends 'cause you can say that defensively too.
• 56:13
  Like you could say that defensively.
• 56:15
  I got a lot of catechism answers, for example, you know,
• 56:18
  I, you know, it depends on how they say it.
• 56:20
  Like you know all. Right, So what?
• 56:21
  What's the narcissist response and what's the non narcissist
• 56:24
  response? So, so it, well, it, you know,
• 56:27
  when, when, when folks so a lot of it, so a lot of this required
• 56:33
  some clinical intuition, right? What you will find is that folks
• 56:38
  that struggle with narcissism do not want to look in the mirror.
• 56:42
  They do not want to look in the mirror and respond to this.
• 56:47
  Now that's kind of counterintuitive because the
• 56:49
  myth of narcissists, you know, was the idea that this, this,
• 56:52
  this, this, this guy fell in love with him, his reflection,
• 56:55
  right? It's not like that at all.
• 56:56
  Actually, they really do not want to look inside.
• 57:01
  That is terrifying for them because again, what's in there,
• 57:04
  it's a void. They feel like it's a void, like
• 57:07
  there's nothing in there, like there's meaninglessness, right?
• 57:11
  So to look at, to look at, to look at themselves, you'll see
• 57:16
  things like pupil dilation, you'll see respiratory rates go
• 57:20
  up. You'll you'll hear stammering,
• 57:23
  like not able to articulate a clear answer.
• 57:27
  Sometimes you'll get them just to tell you their name.
• 57:30
  You know, they'll say like I'm, you know, it were me, like I'm
• 57:33
  Peter Malinowski. I'm the son of, you know,
• 57:35
  whoever their parents are. And that in and of itself isn't,
• 57:40
  doesn't give you just a, a, a, an immediate sure diagnostic
• 57:47
  impression. You know, you have to combine it
• 57:49
  with other things. I really like the Rorschach, for
• 57:52
  example, the, the Rorschach was wonderful.
• 57:54
  The ink blood test at helping to identify narcissistic dynamics
• 57:59
  because again. It's a blood test.
• 58:01
  No, it's a. It's the ink blot test.
• 58:03
  It's the ink blot test, Yeah, yeah, 'cause the blood test,
• 58:07
  Yeah, if you don't have a. Blood test.
• 58:09
  No, not a blood. Test.
• 58:09
  How does that work? How does?
• 58:10
  The blood test, right? No, you can't.
• 58:12
  I don't. I don't know of a way that you
• 58:13
  can do it, but that's again, not my area of expertise.
• 58:16
  I don't know if hematology would help you in terms of, of
• 58:20
  determining narcissism. But but the inkblot test, if you
• 58:23
  don't have a good response to a percept, if you cannot see
• 58:28
  something in a way that a healthy person would, you can't
• 58:31
  make it up very well unless you somehow like study the test or
• 58:34
  something like that beforehand, you know, so, so those were ways
• 58:39
  because everybody coming in for that, the seminarians, most of
• 58:43
  them were not actively trying to misrepresent themselves because
• 58:47
  they weren't trying to game the system.
• 58:49
  But they know that they've got to quote, pass the test if
• 58:55
  they're going to go on to seminary.
• 58:57
  And so there's some real natural ways that they're trying to put
• 58:59
  their best foot forward. They're trying to curate the
• 59:01
  image and so forth. So, and part of our job was to
• 59:04
  see, OK, do they, do they, do they really have the right kind
• 59:10
  of human formation? Are they, where are they
• 59:12
  developmentally? What are their, their blocks and
• 59:15
  so forth? Because I'll tell you that in
• 59:18
  the Church, if you're going into the diocesan priesthood, the
• 59:22
  demands and the intensity of that life and the lack of
• 59:26
  support in most dioceses requires that the candidate have
• 59:31
  not just an, a sort of normal level of human formation, but
• 59:35
  they need really a much higher than that level of human
• 59:39
  formation in order to, to, to, to, to, to survive those kinds
• 59:42
  of demands. Because most people do not
• 59:45
  understand priests at all. They cannot actually see very
• 59:49
  clearly what is going on kind of in the inside of a priest.
• 59:53
  So so yeah, they wind up with a having to be misunderstood a
• 59:57
  lot. Yeah, I think in the modern
• 1:00:01
  world, people look at priests. I mean, there's a lot of
• 1:00:03
  contempt because of, you know, sex abuse scandals and anti
• 1:00:07
  religion and anti faith motivations.
• 1:00:09
  But also I think people just don't get it, you know, like
• 1:00:12
  celibacy, man of, you know, man of the cloth.
• 1:00:15
  Like, why? Why do this?
• 1:00:17
  Why not, if you're going to be a Christian, go be a pastor and
• 1:00:20
  have a wife at least, you know, I think there's a there's a deep
• 1:00:23
  misunderstanding about what is this priesthood thing anyways?
• 1:00:26
  A lot of evangelicals, I think rightly can under understandably
• 1:00:30
  don't get it. You know, like, why would you do
• 1:00:33
  this? But also bound up in it for, for
• 1:00:36
  Catholics too, for those that would understand at least some
• 1:00:39
  of the, the theological or pastoral implications of it.
• 1:00:44
  It's too wound up in Father. It's too wound up in God's
• 1:00:48
  representative. Like there, there's too many
• 1:00:50
  associations, too many what we call transferences where I'm
• 1:00:55
  transferring, you know, things that I feel toward God.
• 1:00:58
  It's too threatening to feel this toward God.
• 1:00:59
  But I can certainly feel this toward the priest who represents
• 1:01:02
  God, right? I'm too threatened to take this
• 1:01:04
  into my relationship with God, but I'll take it into the
• 1:01:06
  relationship with the priest, you know, and all of the father
• 1:01:10
  stuff. Early in my career, I was, I was
• 1:01:13
  interested in why so many people were looking at God as mother or
• 1:01:19
  calling godmother. And every time I encountered
• 1:01:22
  that, I didn't, you know, I was curious about it and I found
• 1:01:25
  that there was a toxic father image.
• 1:01:27
  There was a toxic father relationship.
• 1:01:29
  And and so these folks weren't so much just militating to, you
• 1:01:34
  know, to to to see God as mother because of some theological or
• 1:01:40
  scriptural basis, although they would sometimes invoke those
• 1:01:42
  sorts of things. They were trying to not become
• 1:01:46
  agnostic or atheists. They were trying to hold on to
• 1:01:48
  some kind of image of God because of how toxic the father
• 1:01:52
  image was. They went to something that
• 1:01:53
  wasn't nearly so toxic. And so God, his mother allowed
• 1:01:57
  them to continue to believe in a God.
• 1:01:59
  These ways that we experience authority figures get
• 1:02:03
  transferred into how we see God. It's called God image.
• 1:02:06
  They're called God images. They're they're unconscious.
• 1:02:09
  They're sort of formed into us. And I would argue that each of
• 1:02:13
  our parts have a different God image, which is why when those
• 1:02:16
  parts are not in right relationship with their self,
• 1:02:18
  with itself, with the innermost self, you can wind up looking at
• 1:02:21
  God in very different ways at different points, even during a
• 1:02:24
  day, you know. And so, so it's, it's, it's the,
• 1:02:29
  the way that we are these sort of body and soul composites, the
• 1:02:34
  way that we are these embodied beings into the way that, that
• 1:02:37
  that psychology, for example, impacts the faith is, is, is
• 1:02:42
  fascinates me because there's a far greater influence than
• 1:02:46
  people realize. And that's why I think Saint
• 1:02:48
  John Paul the 2nd and Pestorius double of Obese's Apostolic
• 1:02:51
  exhortation from on 1992 said that all formation, all
• 1:02:56
  formation, spiritual formation, intellectual formation, pastoral
• 1:02:58
  formation is grounded in human formation.
• 1:03:03
  And that's why it's really important that we address these
• 1:03:05
  human formation issues because so many spiritual problems are
• 1:03:08
  really just, are just spiritual consequences of human formation
• 1:03:12
  issues. You resolve the underlying
• 1:03:14
  issue. It makes it so much easier.
• 1:03:16
  You, the person has a good experience of fatherhood, you
• 1:03:19
  know, in the natural realm in, in maybe in therapy, for
• 1:03:22
  example. And now it becomes so much
• 1:03:24
  easier to look at God as a loving Father, because there's
• 1:03:26
  some frame of reference for that that didn't exist before.
• 1:03:30
  That's such a good point because you can have these sort of very
• 1:03:34
  maybe extensive demonstrations of spirituality, but if the
• 1:03:38
  rooted, if it's not rooted in that healthy human formation, it
• 1:03:43
  could also be in its own way, very toxic or broken.
• 1:03:47
  And I think there's so much misunderstanding around that.
• 1:03:51
  And we've only touched the surface even in this
• 1:03:53
  conversation like I've so this is only opening up so many more
• 1:03:56
  things we should be we can talk about.
• 1:03:59
  You've mentioned a few times this idea of parts and we talked
• 1:04:02
  about the family systems a little bit.
• 1:04:04
  But when you say you go throughout a day and you have
• 1:04:06
  different parts that are not all, maybe they, they, they,
• 1:04:10
  they respond in disharmony. So one part sees God correctly
• 1:04:14
  as Father, you know who loves you unconditionally, and another
• 1:04:17
  part God is distant or God is scary or whatever it is.
• 1:04:22
  How does somebody know if their parts are not?
• 1:04:25
  What are their parts? And how does someone know
• 1:04:27
  whether their parts are in harmony or are healed?
• 1:04:30
  Yeah, yeah. So, So I would argue it the best
• 1:04:34
  way to do that is by developing a relationship with your parts
• 1:04:38
  and talking with them. You know, connecting.
• 1:04:40
  Them What are your parts? What?
• 1:04:42
  What do you mean? So, so let's, yeah, let's
• 1:04:43
  actually do like a definition of of parts.
• 1:04:46
  What, what are they? You know, what are these these
• 1:04:50
  things that I'm talking about? Well, they're, they're like
• 1:04:53
  these constellations of so some people will describe them.
• 1:04:59
  They feel like little persons within you, right.
• 1:05:01
  So like or separate personalities that that that
• 1:05:06
  language is a little bit problematic from a Catholic, you
• 1:05:08
  know, anthropology, but but it feels that way.
• 1:05:11
  It feels like like Jekyll and Hyde.
• 1:05:13
  You know, some people will use that example, right?
• 1:05:15
  Like I don't know what came over me, right?
• 1:05:17
  But all of a sudden I'm raging, I'm angry.
• 1:05:21
  The entire world looks this kind of through that filter the the
• 1:05:25
  movie, the Pixar movie inside out.
• 1:05:28
  Those are like little, those are examples of like parts, right?
• 1:05:31
  And you can see when those parts take over the control panel,
• 1:05:33
  it's really that's part, that part's perspective on
• 1:05:36
  everything, relationships, that part's perspective, that part's
• 1:05:39
  beliefs on, on, on, on anything that's going on within them.
• 1:05:43
  I think of them sometimes. Sometimes people find it helpful
• 1:05:46
  to think of them as modes of operating, right?
• 1:05:48
  So some people can recognize that I've got a mode of
• 1:05:50
  operating. When I go and visit my parents,
• 1:05:53
  I have a mode of operating. I'm shut down, I'm numbed out,
• 1:05:57
  you know, and there's a whole bunch of feelings and thoughts
• 1:06:00
  and beliefs and attitudes and ways of looking at things that
• 1:06:03
  kind of go with that. So there are these, I would
• 1:06:04
  think of these of these parts as constellations of emotions,
• 1:06:09
  desires, impulses, attitudes, assumptions about the world,
• 1:06:14
  ways of interacting with other people and images of, of God.
• 1:06:19
  And, and we have a number of them.
• 1:06:23
  What happens when, when there's trauma is that they often get
• 1:06:28
  fragmented away from the, the, a kind of unity with the self.
• 1:06:32
  They're not integrated anymore. And so often that's a protective
• 1:06:36
  aspect, right? So an extreme example, somebody
• 1:06:40
  that's got flashbacks due to combat trauma, right?
• 1:06:43
  And all of a sudden they're walking down, you know, they're
• 1:06:46
  walking down 4th St. they hear a car backfire and they're in the
• 1:06:49
  ditch. Why?
• 1:06:51
  Because a part that experienced combat is come to the front and
• 1:06:55
  misinterpreted that sound. You know, they're flashing back
• 1:06:58
  to when they were in, you know, in a combat situation.
• 1:07:02
  And they believe that part, that part believes that this is all
• 1:07:06
  happening all over again. That's an extreme kind of
• 1:07:09
  example of a part taking over. But we also have, you know,
• 1:07:12
  other parts, parts that want to get things done that are sort of
• 1:07:15
  our, our taskmasters, right? We have parts that are like, are
• 1:07:17
  an inner critic. A lot of people are familiar
• 1:07:19
  with an inner critic, you know, voice kind of like within your
• 1:07:22
  head that gives running commentary about all the things
• 1:07:23
  you're not doing right, you know, and, and an effort to try
• 1:07:27
  to help you. You know, the parts have good
• 1:07:30
  intentions. They are trying to help, but
• 1:07:33
  they go about it in a way that is, that is, if they're not
• 1:07:37
  integrated with the innermost self, if they're not working in
• 1:07:40
  concert with the rest of you, they, they, they get what they
• 1:07:43
  don't want. They wind up undermining their
• 1:07:45
  good intentions. So I mean, that's that's,
• 1:07:48
  that's, that's sort of parts in a nutshell.
• 1:07:51
  And when you say the inner, when you say the innermost self, it's
• 1:07:54
  basically, you know, all of these parts of how you show up,
• 1:07:57
  your habits of behavior, your habits of thought, they need to
• 1:08:01
  be oriented around what is true, good, beautiful, and the fact
• 1:08:04
  that you are loved, lovable and, you know, called to love.
• 1:08:08
  And so it's habits of self-awareness coupled with
• 1:08:11
  habits of virtue and virtues, not just the, you know, the
• 1:08:17
  classical virtues, but the theological ones like really
• 1:08:20
  practicing willing the good for the other and believing the best
• 1:08:23
  and hoping with you, hoping the best.
• 1:08:26
  That's how you basically develop your parts.
• 1:08:30
  This is a. Very rough layman, Yeah.
• 1:08:32
  No, no. No, I appreciate, I appreciate
• 1:08:34
  that you're, that you're struggling with this.
• 1:08:36
  It's great. So the innermost self, some
• 1:08:38
  people think of it as your best self.
• 1:08:41
  You know when you who you are in your finest moments where the
• 1:08:45
  parts are not dominating, right? You're not dominated by any
• 1:08:48
  passions. For example, if you want to put
• 1:08:50
  that in more to Mystic language, some people will think of the
• 1:08:53
  innermost self as the seat of consciousness, you know, where
• 1:08:57
  you know you are in your sort of inmost being.
• 1:09:02
  And there are different qualities associated with that
• 1:09:04
  innermost self. The innermost self is calm, it's
• 1:09:07
  compassionate, it's creative, it desires connection.
• 1:09:11
  It's there's these, these, these different qualities about that
• 1:09:14
  innermost self. And when I've noticed this, you
• 1:09:17
  know, over and over again, when people, when people's parts are
• 1:09:21
  willing to let go of control of the system, you do see the
• 1:09:24
  innermost self emerge. It's like a constraint release
• 1:09:27
  model. And the idea is that these
• 1:09:30
  qualities are innate. In other words, they're
• 1:09:33
  God-given. You don't actually have to
• 1:09:35
  develop them, which was astonishing to me that we
• 1:09:38
  actually have this within us, because I do believe we do.
• 1:09:42
  Now, I do believe that the innermost self also has to
• 1:09:44
  develop in certain ways. You know, it needs to take on
• 1:09:46
  that leadership role within within the self and help guide
• 1:09:50
  these parts because phenomenologically, these parts
• 1:09:52
  are often really young. They actually are often the, the
• 1:09:58
  age, the chronological age they feel themselves to be the
• 1:10:00
  chronological age when the trauma happened.
• 1:10:03
  And then they were forced into this extreme role of being
• 1:10:06
  banished because that was the part that stepped into the
• 1:10:08
  breach, took all the shame from, you know, from when that abuse
• 1:10:12
  or that neglect happened or that, you know, betrayal trauma
• 1:10:14
  happened. And then the other parts like
• 1:10:17
  force that part into the unconscious, sealed it off,
• 1:10:21
  exiled it so that you wouldn't be overwhelmed all the time.
• 1:10:25
  You just. But sometimes that breaks out
• 1:10:26
  just like that combat veteran I was talking about, like
• 1:10:29
  sometimes that breaks out and we wind up back in the grip of
• 1:10:33
  where we were when we were 4 or 12 or 7 or whenever.
• 1:10:37
  And so a lot of the work that I do as a psychologist now is
• 1:10:41
  really about like developing a relationship with these parts,
• 1:10:45
  letting them, seeing them, hearing them kind of going
• 1:10:51
  through these attachment needs and these integrity needs on a
• 1:10:53
  part by part basis, having their deep, having the deep needs met.
• 1:10:58
  And when you when that happens, things just fall into place.
• 1:11:02
  So you're not chasing the symptoms on the surface, you're
• 1:11:05
  actually meeting the needs at the level of the parts.
• 1:11:09
  And that, that was the game changer for me.
• 1:11:11
  That was like, that's what sold me on this.
• 1:11:13
  Because for me, if we go back to when I was 19 and I was, you
• 1:11:17
  know, wanting to attract every woman in the room, you know, it
• 1:11:22
  was about, it wasn't about those relationships.
• 1:11:24
  It wasn't about whether I, I, I could connect with, you know,
• 1:11:28
  one or another of them or go out with him or whatever.
• 1:11:30
  It was about the shame. It was about having a sense that
• 1:11:33
  I wasn't good enough to be loved.
• 1:11:36
  That's if you deal with that. If you can connect at the level
• 1:11:40
  of being loved and knowing that you're OK and that you are
• 1:11:46
  beloved as you are. It simplifies so many things.
• 1:11:50
  But the hard thing is for so many people is to tolerate being
• 1:11:54
  loved in that way. Most people have parts, they
• 1:11:58
  have defenses that do not want to be loved, that flee from
• 1:12:04
  love, because most people know that if love is real, it's given
• 1:12:08
  freely, right? But love, authentic love, is not
• 1:12:12
  received without cost. If you're going to let Love
• 1:12:16
  Actually into you, it's going to burn away things that are
• 1:12:23
  disordered. It's going to burn away things
• 1:12:25
  that are, are, are sinful. It's going to, it's going to
• 1:12:29
  require you to be vulnerable. If you're going to take that in,
• 1:12:33
  it's going to require you to be known to be seen.
• 1:12:38
  You're going to have to allow yourself to be open and
• 1:12:42
  receptive to that love which is coming from another person.
• 1:12:45
  You get to let that person in. This is the tragedy of, of
• 1:12:48
  narcissism is that there's a shutting down of that because of
• 1:12:53
  the fear that if that opens up, that you'll be overwhelmed by
• 1:12:57
  the nothingness and the, the meaninglessness and it won't, it
• 1:13:00
  won't work out well. So, so that, that's a lot of
• 1:13:05
  what, what I think actually heals at the level, at the
• 1:13:09
  deepest level is can I tolerate being loved in my entire being?
• 1:13:14
  Or am I only going to be loved in the parts that I put in the
• 1:13:17
  shop window? You know that that I deem good
• 1:13:20
  enough to be in relationship with other people.
• 1:13:24
  It sounds like, if I'm understanding you correctly, to
• 1:13:28
  really heal narcissism and honestly to heal any fracture
• 1:13:33
  between one's parts and and sort of the clouding of 1's true self
• 1:13:37
  that God has designed, it requires opening yourself up to
• 1:13:41
  God's love and believing what is true about God that he is love.
• 1:13:45
  There's one thing I want for people is that they can embrace
• 1:13:48
  their identity as beloved little sons and daughters of God, you
• 1:13:54
  know, and, and that is to, to not have to earn it.
• 1:13:58
  You know, I was, I was really successful in high school and
• 1:14:03
  college. I was 4 point O student, you
• 1:14:05
  know, 2 sport athlete, you know, I, you know, academically really
• 1:14:10
  strong, you know, a long sort of a list of credentials and
• 1:14:15
  achievements and so forth. And it was, it was all an effort
• 1:14:19
  to try to become good enough to be loved.
• 1:14:22
  You know, good enough to be noticed, good enough like that.
• 1:14:25
  The fantasy is if I only achieve enough, then then I wouldn't
• 1:14:33
  have framed it quite this way, but then God would love me, or
• 1:14:35
  then I would be good enough to be loved.
• 1:14:37
  It was really more like good enough to be loved.
• 1:14:40
  Then I would get what I needed. And I think those kind of
• 1:14:45
  dynamics take on different forms and different kind of people and
• 1:14:48
  they lead to different personality styles.
• 1:14:50
  If those styles become more more extreme or hardened, we tend to
• 1:14:53
  see them as personality disorders.
• 1:14:54
  But but I just believe that the personalities are just whatever
• 1:14:58
  parts tend to be on the surface most often, you know, and it
• 1:15:02
  neglects the rest of the person. It's just what you typically
• 1:15:04
  see. So.
• 1:15:07
  So it kind of sounds like you're saying in a way we all have the
• 1:15:10
  same personality. I mean, they say Jesus is the
• 1:15:13
  perfect, you know, the perfection of all the
• 1:15:16
  temperaments, right? That the more the more healthy
• 1:15:19
  you become, the more balanced your temperament becomes.
• 1:15:23
  I think the more that we are integrated and I think the vast
• 1:15:26
  majority of people are not integrated very well, I think
• 1:15:28
  it's a really exceptional thing. So, but I think the potential is
• 1:15:32
  there, like I think we can get there.
• 1:15:34
  But I think the more that you are able to connect with your
• 1:15:38
  parts, the better you will understand and the other people
• 1:15:44
  and the more of a repertoire you'll have of ways of acting,
• 1:15:48
  you know. So when I was able to get in
• 1:15:49
  touch with the part of me that carried fear, instead of just
• 1:15:53
  banishing that part, seeing that part as a threat, right?
• 1:15:56
  Because I don't want to, you know, be, you know, become prey,
• 1:16:00
  right? Because parts of me were caught
• 1:16:02
  back when situations are more, more dangerous, you know, if I
• 1:16:07
  can connect with that part, if I can love that part, if I can
• 1:16:09
  appreciate that part, not only can I now start being courageous
• 1:16:13
  instead of just fear, fearless. Because courage is actually
• 1:16:18
  acknowledging the fear. It involves actually
• 1:16:20
  acknowledging the fear. But I can appreciate why other
• 1:16:23
  people might be afraid. I'm not threatened by other
• 1:16:25
  people being afraid, you know, And so then I mean, that just
• 1:16:30
  opens me up to be able to be gentle and soft and kind with
• 1:16:33
  other people who are, you know, in various, you know, various
• 1:16:36
  kinds of, of situations. And that's what, that's what I
• 1:16:39
  think we really need to be able to, to connect with our own
• 1:16:44
  parts because there are parts of us that help us understand their
• 1:16:47
  counterparts in another person. And so when they're, when, when
• 1:16:53
  I'm in right relationship with my parts, when my innermost self
• 1:16:56
  is in right relationship with my parts, then those parts can
• 1:16:59
  contribute to the music. Then my trombone player can join
• 1:17:04
  in. Then my trumpeter can play in,
• 1:17:05
  but so can my piccolo player. And they're not drowning each
• 1:17:07
  other out and they're not fighting, you know.
• 1:17:09
  And so then then I'm able to love the Lord my God with my
• 1:17:13
  whole heart, not just with the parts of me that are happen to
• 1:17:18
  be on the, in the on the surface, but with every fiber of
• 1:17:22
  my being. Ultimately, what I want is for
• 1:17:26
  us to be able to become love. I think that's what we're called
• 1:17:29
  to, to actually embody love. And that means like a radical
• 1:17:37
  acceptance of our own selves. That means a radical love of our
• 1:17:40
  own selves so that we're free with the entirety of our being
• 1:17:45
  to love our neighbor and to love God.
• 1:17:49
  That's what I think we need to aspire to.
• 1:17:51
  I think, I think it's, I think that's really what that's that's
• 1:17:56
  really what motivates me. And so to have to have that
• 1:18:00
  start, you know, we say that, you know, charity begins at
• 1:18:03
  home. You know, we tend to think about
• 1:18:04
  it in terms of the people around us.
• 1:18:06
  I'm going to take it even closer to home, right?
• 1:18:08
  To, to within ourselves. And so this isn't some sort of
• 1:18:12
  just self absorbed narcissistic navel gazing, you know, put the
• 1:18:16
  put the cucumbers on my eyes and lie back and light the
• 1:18:19
  aromatherapy candles and pamper myself.
• 1:18:21
  It's really about, it's really about a boot camp.
• 1:18:26
  It's really about being able to love myself so that I can love
• 1:18:32
  other people and love God. It's not, it's not something
• 1:18:34
  that's just self indulgent. And that's where that's where
• 1:18:38
  the narcissists really, really struggle.
• 1:18:41
  That's their particular weaknesses, that they cannot
• 1:18:43
  love themselves because they won't look at themselves,
• 1:18:46
  because they find themselves too threatening the emptiness and so
• 1:18:50
  forth. And what happens is they wind up
• 1:18:53
  getting that confirmed when they interact with people in these
• 1:18:56
  negative ways that, you know, that can even be exploitive.
• 1:18:59
  You know, they get a lot of negative feedback, and it
• 1:19:02
  continues to perpetuate that cycle.
• 1:19:06
  I think we're going to need to do a part to doctor Peter how to
• 1:19:08
  love yourself. I mean, really, I, I think
• 1:19:11
  there's so much practical, I'm sure you could lay out and this
• 1:19:15
  is your, your practice, right. But those practical steps,
• 1:19:19
  because I think in a theological realm, it's very fraught.
• 1:19:23
  You know, you don't want to be self love, you know, is looked
• 1:19:27
  at as a bad thing. Typically scripturally.
• 1:19:30
  I know you know what that means. Self absorption, self
• 1:19:33
  perception, self selfishness, so, so much more to unpack.
• 1:19:37
  So we were going to have to have you back on the podcast if
• 1:19:39
  that's OK with you in. The time In the meantime,
• 1:19:43
  episodes 97 and 98 of the Interior Integration for
• 1:19:47
  Podcast, for the Interior Integration for Catholics.
• 1:19:49
  It's all about loving yourself and how difficult it is to love
• 1:19:52
  yourself and why. You know, that is a book I would
• 1:19:56
  eventually like to write because there's so much confusion about
• 1:19:59
  it. So much confusion.
• 1:19:59
  About it. Oh, please do write that book.
• 1:20:01
  Yeah, what does it mean to love yourself?
• 1:20:03
  But start with those podcast, those podcasts into your
• 1:20:05
  integration for Catholics 9798 all about self love and and a
• 1:20:09
  way to to actually conceptualize that like to begin to think
• 1:20:14
  about that and begin to practice it.
• 1:20:15
  That's what we do at Souls and hearts.
• 1:20:17
  Ultimately, we're all about the three great loves.
• 1:20:20
  To love your neighbor, to love God, but but to love yourself
• 1:20:24
  too. Because if you don't have that,
• 1:20:25
  you can't have the other two. So, good Doctor Peter, where can
• 1:20:30
  people find your work? So check us out at Souls and
• 1:20:32
  hearts.com. And that's our outreach.
• 1:20:35
  We want to bring the best of human formation resources,
• 1:20:38
  psychological resources to the public.
• 1:20:41
  We do that through podcasts and I have a weekly reflection that
• 1:20:44
  I do, but also through our communities, like the Resilient
• 1:20:47
  Catholics community where we're really break working on human
• 1:20:50
  formation in a year long, in a year long kind of concentrated
• 1:20:55
  way in small groups where you don't have to do it by yourself.
• 1:20:59
  Just we've had hundreds of people go through that already.
• 1:21:01
  And I just encourage people, if you're interested in this part
• 1:21:03
  stuff you can check out again, Interior Integration for
• 1:21:06
  Catholics. Episode 71 is a summary of
• 1:21:10
  internal family systems. If you want to understand that
• 1:21:12
  better, check that out. Episode 73 is, is internal
• 1:21:15
  family systems really Catholic? So we get into some of those
• 1:21:18
  questions too for folks that that are concerned about that
• 1:21:21
  because there are some adjustments investments that we
• 1:21:23
  make for. That, and it sounds like you
• 1:21:24
  don't have to be Catholic to benefit from from what you're.
• 1:21:27
  Describing most of the people that trained me in this, most of
• 1:21:30
  the people that gave me the most helpful kinds of things were not
• 1:21:34
  Catholic. Actually not almost none of my
• 1:21:38
  training was, you know, had a Catholic focus.
• 1:21:40
  But we do, we do provide some human formation resources for
• 1:21:44
  therapists as well in the interior therapist community.
• 1:21:48
  So people can check that out if you're a therapist that's
• 1:21:50
  interested in this kind of stuff, because that's the thing
• 1:21:52
  that I think really holds therapists back from doing this
• 1:21:55
  work with their clients. The number one reason why I
• 1:21:59
  think therapists don't help their narcissistic clients is
• 1:22:02
  because they don't really see them.
• 1:22:05
  They don't really understand them and they get afraid and
• 1:22:10
  they, they don't have enough sort of interior integration and
• 1:22:13
  peace inside, enough presence to be able to tolerate the
• 1:22:18
  difficulties of the relationship.
• 1:22:20
  And so, so, yeah, so I'm a huge advocate of therapist getting
• 1:22:24
  the formation they need to. I'm talking talking, talking,
• 1:22:26
  talking lilac. No, it's awesome.
• 1:22:28
  Thank you, Doctor Peter. This has been amazing.
• 1:22:30
  And what we're going to have to have you back because there's so
• 1:22:32
  much more to explore. But thanks so much for joining
• 1:22:34
  the show. It's been a pleasure to be with
• 1:22:36
  you, Lilac. Thank you for having me.
• 1:22:37
  And I really appreciate you doing this work and, and, and
• 1:22:41
  your audience doing their work too, because whenever, whenever
• 1:22:44
  somebody does that work, it builds up.
• 1:22:47
  It builds up the entire, we're all one big system, right?
• 1:22:50
  I mean, we're all in this together in this mystical body
• 1:22:53
  of Christ or even just being on the same planet.
• 1:22:56
  So when when somebody loves themselves, that makes the whole
• 1:23:00
  world a better place. Beautiful.
• 1:23:02
  Thank you. Thank you, Doctor Peter, thanks
• 1:23:06
  so much for listening to this episode of the Lila Rose
• 1:23:08
  Podcast. I hope you enjoyed it.
• 1:23:10
  As always, do not forget to subscribe.
• 1:23:13
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• 1:23:17
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• 1:23:22
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  free downloadable copy of my of a charter from my book that I
• 1:23:38
  never released, which I think is very cool.
• 1:23:41
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• 1:23:42
  So go check it out. And that link is in the bio.
• 1:23:45
  We'll see you next time.