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Why We Misunderstand Each Other: An Exploration of Relational Frames · The Virtual Couch

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So I can honestly say that I really do love what I do and after spending 10 years in a career that I didn't really enjoy and I didn't even know that I didn't enjoy it, I was just kind of doing it.
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And now 17, 18 years into a career as a therapist and a podcast host and doing some speaking and writing, I just absolutely love it.
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So I just want to set the stage by telling that part of the story.
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But it's been quite a while, but I remember working with a client
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and the client would continually just say things and I was lost.
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So they would say things like, and then high school happens,
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and I would feel like, and that did happen, didn't it?
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Is that a good thing or a bad thing?
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Or then they would say, and then all of a sudden I'm watching the Big Bang Theory and Sheldon.
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And so I'm thinking, I mean, I kind of know who the character is, but I'm not really sure if that is a good expression that you're saying, or a bad expression.
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Or, heaven forbid, when we would start heading down some realm of really trying to figure out, dig deep into their values, and then they just sort of had this assumption that everybody was on the same page.
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So they would say, well, and then, I mean, things like guns or education, and they would just say, am I right?
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They want this validation.
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And I have no idea what their stance is. and then as I would even dig in a little bit deeper,
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I don't think they did either.
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But one of the things I thought was so confusing about those kind of conversations is that
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sometimes people just have such different experiences or different meanings for different
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words and concepts and experiences.
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Not going to lie, my high school experience was not bad. Sometimes when I hear people talk about the people that peaked at high school, I start
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to think, oh, wait a minute, was that me?
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Was that the case?
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Or if somebody talks about having an amazing, rambunctious, crazy college experience, and
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And I think about, oh, that was actually when I enjoyed the freedom, but I really didn't
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know what was going on. I was a little bit lost there.
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I always thought I would be doing something different.
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And then fatherhood. And when people will say, well, you know what it's like having kids.
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And I think, okay, I think I kind of enjoyed it. So is that weird? Is that odd?
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So today I want to dig into some concepts around how we make meaning of different situations
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and how that is actually one of the key things to be aware of that we can say a word and,
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assume and it's almost our default to assume that everybody knows exactly what we mean
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when we say that word. If I say dinosaur, I don't know what just came to your mind.
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I just thought of a brontosaurus. I'm not really sure why. I wonder how many of you
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thought T-Rex or Velociraptor or maybe you thought dinosaur, you thought dinosaur eggs
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because that was a type of oatmeal that the kids would eat back in the day. So you can
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have all these different relationships with words, concepts and meanings. And I think
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it's really significant to understand
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what those relationships are because that leads to, my good friend, curiosity.
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And as we talked about a couple of weeks ago, if someone lacks curiosity in a conversation,
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then it's almost an exercise in futility because then the other person is just defending themselves the entire time
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and there really isn't a lot of connected conversation going on or learning more about the person
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that you're having the conversation with.
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So we're gonna talk about that and a whole lot of other things today on the virtual couch.
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Music.
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Hey everybody, welcome to episode 392 of the virtual couch. I'm your host, Tony Overbay.
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I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified mindful habit coach, and hey, that
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is going to be a more of a important thing to talk about in the coming weeks and months.
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My good friend, Craig Parra, who is the one who certified me in his mindful habit program
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is going to be offering a training for therapists to learn more about the mindful habit coaching
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concepts and coaching principles.
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And that 100% is what helped me create my path back. my online pornography recovery program
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and those concepts I use in therapy a lot as well.
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So if you are a therapist, I know a lot of therapists listen to Virtual Couch
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and Waking Up to Narcissism both,
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and you're just curious about what that might look like, shoot me an email, directly contact at tonyoverbay.com
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and I would love to get a little side group going there of therapists who might be interested
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in learning more about the mindful habit.
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So that would be wonderful. And speaking of the path back there,
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well, let me even take a step back.
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The only business I'll do is please go sign up for my newsletter.
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You can go to tonyoverbay.com and do that, or there's a link in the show notes, a link
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tree link, and there will be a link to sign up for the newsletter.
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But we're getting those newsletters out. It's two weeks in a row, and the folks at the AIA agency are helping with those.
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And so I'm just, I'm really grateful. I'm excited.
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There's a lot of good content that I want to share by way of newsletter.
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So please sign up and you'll find out all kinds of things. So I'll talk more about that in new podcasts,
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new podcast episodes and courses and programs.
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And so we'll just go there. But where I went with that or why that hit me
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during that time talking about the Path Back
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is I know there's a coupon code for the Path Back Online Pornography Recovery Program,
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that you can use and get a discount on the Path Back course.
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So let's get to today's episode.
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We are going to take a deep dive into a topic that I've wanted to get back to for a very long time.
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It's called the relational frame theory. And I promise you it's not as nerdy as it sounds.
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And I think this is going to be one of those that by the end of this episode,
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you're going to have a lot of new tools and some good awareness that is going to help you
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communicate with people better. It literally right after you're done with this episode.
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And I just haven't given this the attention that it needs, but I realize now that I think.
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It needed aging because I think there are some concepts that have really come together or gelled over the last few weeks as,
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I talk more and more about everything from the pre pillar of my four pillars of a connected conversation of,
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that I took from Marshall Rosenberg's nonviolent communication where before we can even get to my pillar one of assuming good intentions or there's a reason why people say the things that they do or act the way that they do, that they aren't necessarily waking up and trying to hurt the other person in the relationship.
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And by that pre-pillar, it's to get to pillar one, we are observing somebody's behavior, we're making these judgments about it already.
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So we're already putting them in a place where they have to defend themselves about something that is probably not even true and that they're not even aware of.
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Of. So as that starts to become more evident in hopefully your relationships or your communication style.
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And then I did a big two-parter on, we just want certainty in life in general.
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And then when we don't have certainty, we feel uncomfortable and we have unhealthy ways
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that we try to get rid of our discomfort.
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And so learning to step outside of our ego and not judge someone just off of the observations
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that we make and recognizing that, yeah, when we're looking at somebody else's experience,
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it can make us feel a little bit uncomfortable.
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Now we're learning how to sit with discomfort And hopefully that keeps us out of that world of just thinking and overthinking and ruminating and worrying.
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And so now if we're showing up in our relationships and we now know we're not just seeking validation
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or wanting somebody to tell me what I think that I want to hear,
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so then therefore if they don't tell me what I want to hear,
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then I get to say they don't care about me and something must be wrong with me.
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We've eliminated that.
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So now if I'm not looking for validation and I'm aware that I can't have both love and control
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in an adult relationship, and I'm going to assume we're opting for love.
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Now I'm coming from a place of a healthy ego, knowing a lot of things that I used to not know,
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which then in turn allows me to take ownership of things that now I realize
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that maybe I have done or things that I don't know.
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And what comes with that is starting to build some emotional safety and some
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trust in the relationship.
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And last week I was very intentional and excited to roll out these concepts I
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I call the assertive frame, holding the assertive frame,
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of not going into a victim mindset when somebody is maybe a little bit more
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emotionally dysregulated or up in their amygdala when they're talking to you
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and maybe they're not being curious, but don't go into a victim stance and know that that person,
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they're testing the relationship for safety
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or maybe they have their own insecurities and you learn how to put the connection ahead of your fear,
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fear of saying the wrong thing or connection ahead of ego.
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So if you don't engage when somebody's.
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In that maybe emotionally dysregulated state, then they might start saying things that are a little more mean push a button or two to see if they can get you to react. And it's all subconscious. They mean well.
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But those concepts, I think I'm really just trying to lay a lot of groundwork as I'm continually working with more and more couples and we want couples to be able to thrive and grow and communicate and just have the life that they didn't know they could as cliched as that sounds.
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But another big concept of that, I think, is it's around what meaning we make of different words, different situations.
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And I did an episode a long time ago, a kind of nerdy version of this. It's called the relational frame theory.
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But I really want to give more context around this and what that looks like and try to simplify the concepts and principles
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because it will really help lead to more curiosity in your conversations with your spouse, with your coworkers, with your parents, with your kids.
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Kids. Let me start by reading a letter, a letter, an email. Over the weekend I was
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taking some ibuprofen and I did not realize that for probably, I don't know.
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If it's been all my marriage, I call it aspirin and so my wife just kept saying
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you mean the Advil or the ibuprofen and I just didn't understand. So letter by
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letter I mean electronic mail or email. So here is the, here's the letter, but I
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want to talk about relational frame theory and it does, it sounds nerdy and
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complicated, but stick with me and by the end of the episode,
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you're gonna understand why this theory, it really can be a bit
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of a game changer, as cliched as that phrase is in your relationships. And I just think it leads to more overall
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curiosity. So here we go. Dear Tony, first off, I want to express my deepest appreciation for the virtual couch podcast.
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My wife and I have been avid listeners for quite some time now. Here are four pillars of a connected conversation model,
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pure gold, it's helped us communicate better and understand each other in ways that we did not think were
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possible. However, lately we've hit a snag. There's a recurring issue that we can't
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seem to get past. Somehow our conversations have developed into a comparison of whose trauma is affecting them more. And we recognize it's a
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harmful loop, but it feels like we're just not able to hear each other. Every,
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conversation seems to turn into almost this silent competition, and then we both
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walk away feeling unheard and isolated when we've made so much progress over
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the last year or two. I know you've discussed a lot of different tools and and maybe you've already had a podcast on this,
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but I'm curious if there's something that we might be missing
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because we really want to break the cycle and we are stumped.
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And so this one I did, I wanted more context and I had the thought in mind that I thought this might make a good introduction for a podcast at some point.
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I just wrote back, I said, I appreciated what they said.
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It's heartwarming to know that you're for the four pillars has been beneficial and I expressed empathy for the challenge that they're facing.
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But I said, it really reminds me of this concept of relational frame theory.
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And I just said, it makes me wonder, could you and your wife be attributing different meanings
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and emotions and experiences to this word or concept of trauma?
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When we talk about our traumas, especially in relationships.
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The weight and understanding of that word can vary widely between individuals.
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And sometimes people, even in my office, they don't like the word trauma,
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they use the word trauma, they get very emotional when they use the word trauma.
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And that same thing happens with so many different words. Another one is trigger.
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There are people that that feel so heard and understood by the concepts and the word trigger.
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And there are other people that are ironically triggered by the word trigger.
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And even when I'm talking about people that are turning to pornography and as an unhealthy coping mechanism, there there isn't a real diagnosis of pornography addiction.
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And so I don't usually say that word pornography addiction.
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But if somebody says, OK, but I really think I'm an addict, that's and I never want to sound dismissive, but I want to understand what that meaning means to them.
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Because for some people they the last thing they want to do is be called an addict and for others then they say well
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If I'm not an addict, then I don't think I'm gonna take it seriously So people just have different meanings and different relationships with those words.
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So back to my response then I Just said and I was throwing out just hypotheticals. I said for instance your understanding of trauma
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It could be steeped in experiences that were emotionally challenging But maybe not as life-altering as they are to someone else
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But on the other hand, maybe your wife could connect trauma with deeply scarring events,
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that changed the whole trajectory of her life.
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So when both of you discuss your traumas, you're not just talking about the incidents,
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but also dealing with the deeply rooted and individual connections and emotions and meanings
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that you've attached to that term.
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So it's no wonder that it feels like you're speaking basically different languages.
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So my suggestion, and I think I was making a joke the day before about something being
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meta, but I just said my suggestion, have a meta conversation.
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Meaning set aside time to discuss what trauma means to each of you without diving into the specifics of your personal experiences because
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understanding each other's relational frame surrounding this term might be the
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first step to feeling truly heard and breaking this cycle of comparison. And I
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got a letter in response and it was really cool. He said, Tony first off let
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me say a heartfelt thank you for your response. I appreciate that. He said you
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hit the nail on the head. While in hindsight it seems pretty obvious...
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The fact that my wife and I may have had different meanings and experiences connected to the word
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trauma was incredibly eye-opening. To give you more context, my version of childhood trauma
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revolved around neglect and isolation. Both my parents worked exhaustive hours trying to make
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ends meet, and while I understood their need to work, the consequence was that I spent long hours
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home alone, often coming home from school to an empty house. I think we used to call it a latchkey
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kid. I'd do my math homework, prepare my dinner, and by the time they returned, they were too
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too drained to engage or even really inquire about my day.
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To the outside world, I had to paint a picture that my parents were actively involved in my life
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because I feared, because of watching some after school specials,
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that I would be taken away if that wasn't the case.
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Even though in reality, I was emotionally and somewhat physically raising myself.
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This facade was exhausting, always pretending everything was okay when it felt far from it.
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And as a result, today I have this insurmountable urge to be there for my kids in every way possible,
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to fill in the gaps that I felt as a child.
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On the other hand, my wife's trauma is a different shade, but just as impactful.
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She grew up in a very high-demand religious home where there was a stark line between right and wrong.
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Every action, every thought was measured against the most unattainable standard.
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Despite her best efforts, striving for perfection in every corner of her life,
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she seldom received the praise or validation that she yearned for.
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The most heart-wrenching part? Her parents, the ones setting these stringent benchmarks, often didn't live up to them
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themselves. Their lack of self-awareness and ownership of their inconsistencies created a chasm of distrust in her.
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And I can't help myself, chasm of distrust is a great name for an alternative band.
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But he says that today, for her, this manifests in her struggle to trust people and an overwhelming
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sense of never being enough.
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So when it comes to parenting, these feelings often cause her to freeze, overwhelmed by
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the fear of not doing it enough or not doing it right, and in even larger fear of doing it wrong.
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I hope this gives you a clearer picture of our backgrounds. Understanding that our traumas, though different in nature, equally affect our present, might
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be the bridge that we've been searching for.
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Your perspective has given us a starting point, and we're hopeful for what the future holds.
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This can help someone else. Gratefully, a confused listener now a bit less confused.
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So now I want to take you to the book A Liberated Mind by Stephen Hayes, and Stephen Hayes is one of the founders of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy.
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And I'm going to read a little bit here and comment, but I want to talk about the creation of this concept called the relational frame theory.
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Because I really do feel like this is at the core of a lot of the communication struggles we have, is this subconscious, almost offense we take at times, even when our spouse uses particular phrases or words.
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And now if we go back to the episode I did a couple of weeks ago, if all of a sudden I am offended, and maybe I'm not assuming good intentions, or I've made a judgment with what I am observing them do or what I heard them say, because it means something different to me, and I'm not going in with curiosity about what they truly meant by what they said or what that word or phrase means to them,
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I think you can just start to see where communication,
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we're starting off at such a disadvantage.
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And if you can't get both people to do the work or to get on the same page,
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I just think it helps so much for you
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to understand the concepts of making meaning of words and phrases so that it might allow yourself
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to number one, give yourself grace when you're frustrated, when somebody maybe doesn't really understand you.
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And also to help you be more curious so that you can have better conversations
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and relationships with the people that you really care about,
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but that you also recognize that they're going to be people that because of all of the things
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that brought them to that moment in their own lives,
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they may absolutely lack curiosity or be unwilling to take ownership or accountability of things,
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and they may have completely different meanings of words and concepts and just events in general,
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and that doesn't mean that anything is wrong with you.
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It might be your opportunity to do a little self-confrontation and grow.
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And trust your own gut and maybe somebody isn't as safe of a person to talk to and the life is a
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pretty short thing and so why waste our time and emotional energy and calories on people that we
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are trying to prove that we are worthy of a conversation or that we are worthy of love
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because that's a given you are you are worthy of conversation worthy of love worthy of connection.
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So, in the book, A Liberated Mind, Dr. Hayes talks about the uniquely human blessing and curse.
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He says the way that we learn language explains the power of, and I guess a quick backstory,
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he says the dictator.
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And the dictator is that inner voice. The dictator is the voice, the yeah, but in your mind, if you're coming at it from a completely
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religious setting, people can say this is the, you know, the devil inside, but it could
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be the dictator. It could be the protector.
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It's the thing that's telling you, yeah, but I don't know about that.
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So he said, the way we learn language explains the power of the dictator.
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And a core finding of Ack's research is that human language learning does not happen the
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way that language theorists have posited for over 300 years.
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There's a false idea that's dominated the study of language acquisition, and that is
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that meaning is derived by a process of association.
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So when we think of the Pavlov's dog experiment, that the dogs learned to salivate at the sound
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of a bell that reliably signaled just before they were given food.
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And once that association had been strongly made, then the dogs would salivate at the
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sound of the bell, even though no food appeared.
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So basic processes of association, Dr. Hayes says, are indeed the way children learn first
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words, being specifically trained in the associations between words and their meanings.
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Parents than, for example, who are eager for their child to call them mama or dada.
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I know this really well.
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So we teach them by direct association and by using what psychologists call
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contingencies, which is learning a when, if, then sequences such as when I see
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this face, if I say mama, then happy tickles will follow and to train names
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with our children, then we may say I'm mama or that's dada pointing to ourselves
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or to the other parent.
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And Dr. A says, word after word, bottle, milk, ball, toy, doggy, we train our babies when
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they see an object to expect a characteristic name or when they hear a name to expect a
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characteristic object.
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And so as they begin to speak, they learn to show the right when, if, then sequences,
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and can say the right word to refer to an object or reach for the right object when
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they hear its name or to command the presentation of the right object by saying its name.
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What's kind of a trip is that if you just back out again and know that we, the kids or we all get our,
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sense of self early on from the external validation, so primarily that could be the
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external validation of our parent, that it is interesting that if your parents aren't necessarily
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even paying a lot of attention or putting a lot of effort, time or effort into the teaching of
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language or these object relations, then you could see how, you can just slowly start to see how the.
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The implicit memory or what it feels like to be that kid or you built on all the slow
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residue of lived experience that if there's really just not a lot of excitement around
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the concept of being a parent to your child, then one could start to see that the child's
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experience of being a child maybe isn't one to get overly hyped about because they aren't
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getting that excitement when they pick up new words or when they point to dad and say
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dada. So I just thought that was something interesting to just put out there because.
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Not that we want to be incredibly fake in our relationships with our kids, but I think.
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It speaks to showing some excitement so that then they maybe even have a little bit more
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of an excitement to learn because they're getting that validation early. So then Dr.
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Hayes says somewhere around the age of 12 months, children begin to show that language
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is becoming a two-way street. And I thought this was interesting. I had to read this one
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twice at first, I didn't really understand. But he said, any parent who's had a child suddenly say
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that they want something, he said, maybe an apple. When the child hadn't been explicitly taught the
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word for that thing has experienced the wonder of this natural stage of development. Children come
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to understand that the relations between words and their meanings go both ways. That if the word mama
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refers to a particular person, then if someone points to that person and asks, who is she?
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The word mama is the right answer. And this is what's interesting, no other animal has
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been shown capable of figuring out that two-way street. So if you train a chimp to point to
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an abstract symbol when it sees an orange, and you later hold up that symbol next to
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a bowl of fruit, the chimp will not know to pick out the orange. The chimp has learned
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only a one-way association, orange and then that symbol. If you want the chimp to point
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to the orange, you'll have to teach it that the connection in the other direction,
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so the object, you would have to teach them that here's the object, and then orange.
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And that seems strange to us because the two-way nature of the relations
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between words and their meaning
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is just so natural to human adults.
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But he said, it's once we develop the ability to make two-way relations that our thinking ability is off and running because now everyone is starting to make different meaning or associations of these two-way streets are putting items together and making relationships between the items.
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So he said, by the time children are 16 or 17 months old, if they hear an unfamiliar
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name and both a familiar and an unfamiliar object is in sight, they will then assume
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that the unfamiliar name goes with the unfamiliar object and vice versa.
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And Dr. Hayes is kind of fascinating. When they were developing the tools to start studying ACT, acceptance and commitment therapy,
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he said that his lab was among the first to show this transition and it was just 25 years
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ago, which is pretty new in the field of psychology.
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So parents are often dumbfounded by how quickly children learn new words, not realizing that
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every word that they are saying is now leading the baby to search for events and objects
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in the environment that are unfamiliar and then derive a two-way relation between those
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events or objects in these new words.
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So when a kid, it's such a trip to think when a kid is hearing new words, new concepts,
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it's almost as if they say, okay, I know the things that I know.
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So now I'm looking for things I don't know.
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That must be, there must be a relationship there between this new thing and then the thing
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that I don't know that's in the room.
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So Dr. Hayes said, in the early 1980s, I began doing research with a senior colleague,
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Aaron Brownstein, and how children discovered Two-Way Association.
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How children discovered this two-way street. Association and contingencies, I thought,
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could never explain it because that kind of learning is one-way learning.
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Then, in a spectacular week, it all fell together. Language was not learning to associate,
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it was learning to relate. And he said his colleague Aaron loved it, which was extremely
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gratifying because Dr. Hayes was the young academic. But he said the seemingly small
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difference of learning by deriving relationships helps explain why human thought becomes so
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real. It accounts for why our thought processes become so complex and so automatic, and it
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helps explain why any given new thought, whether triggered by some actual event in the present
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moment or by a memory, can then have ripple effects through elaborate networks of thoughts
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embedded in our minds. He said Aaron and I came up with the term relational frames for
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many types of abstract comparisons that can be learned because, like a picture frame,
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they are a construct that all sorts of different objects and concepts can be put into.
25:43
And in the book of Liberated Mind, he has just this picture frame and on the left is a box,
25:48
an empty box, and then it says, is bigger than, and another empty box. So he said,
25:53
we can say to a child who has learned this relational frame, not only the house is bigger
25:57
than the car, but he said, we could also put in there, God is bigger than the universe,
26:01
and the child will understand. The child will also be able to say, then the universe is
26:06
smaller than God and since I'm smaller than the universe, then God is bigger than me.
26:12
And if you are a VeggieTales fan, we all know that God is bigger than the boogeyman. They
26:17
can combine frames into cognitive networks. So two-way relations and the networks they
26:22
produce are the fundamental building block of our symbolic thinking abilities. And again,
26:28
The reason I find this so fascinating and important in the field of mental health is that,
26:35
what a complex process that's been happening since the time you were a tiny baby
26:39
and you're forming these relational frames of objects
26:44
and not only this is bigger than this because we can agree to those things,
26:49
but the things that I find that most people get into arguments about in my office,
26:54
are the this concept means this or this concept is better than this concept.
26:59
So we're, and it becomes just automatic because that's the way our brains work.
27:04
And so it takes a tremendous amount of intentionality and curiosity to step outside of your relational frame then to be curious.
27:14
And I think you can start to see why it can be very difficult to change that relational frame
27:18
because that's the way that we learn.
27:20
So if somebody isn't doing their own work, whatever that work looks like,
27:25
then often all they're doing is continually just building cement around their relational frame,
27:32
so that it cannot change, it will not change. And then to the more emotionally immature,
27:38
I think this is that part where, and now they're looking for everything they can do
27:42
to pack in various memories and experiences, confirmation bias, cognitive bias, to just
27:48
further back up their relational frame. And it has to be right. And again, in the world of emotional
27:53
immaturity there cannot be two different thoughts. So if you are talking with someone that is
27:58
narcissistic or emotionally immature, then if you are expressing an opinion, what they hear,
28:04
which is interesting, I was going to say crazy, that's not fair, is that, oh, you think I'm wrong.
28:12
And what is ironic is that the more emotionally mature person who has been doing a lot of their
28:17
their own work or has become aware, that's the last thing they're saying.
28:21
But they were just told that, oh, what this person hearing, the more emotionally immature,
28:27
narcissistic person is hearing, is that I hear you have a different opinion.
28:31
So therefore, my judgment of my observation of what you're doing is that you think you're better than me.
28:38
You think you're right and I'm wrong.
28:40
And so now I must defend myself and I must break you down.
28:44
And so you can see why it can be so difficult to try and have a conversation when there is no curiosity
28:51
and we're operating from this place of ego and we're operating from a place of immaturity.
28:55
And so if there's another view or another opinion, then that destroys everything I've ever done. It doesn't.
29:02
It's all part of the human process to gather more information and be more curious
29:06
and understand that, of course, I'm looking through my own relational frame
29:10
and through my own, let's say logo, but ego, my own lens.
29:14
So then Dr. Hayes says that the kinds of relations we learn quickly become more and more complex,
29:20
moving beyond direct relations between words and concrete objects to abstract relations,
29:25
such as that one object is opposite to another, better or worse than another,
29:29
uglier or prettier, or more valuable. The mind is using language to understand increasingly
29:34
complex features of the world and how it works. And he said without the imaginative ability to
29:39
to understand abstract relations, human cognition would have been hobbled.
29:44
We realize that this was another major threshold of our intellectual development, that it takes
29:47
a number of years for children to master.
29:50
Three-year-olds tend to prefer a nickel to a dime because they know the coins are worth
29:53
something like candy, and the nickel is physically bigger.
29:57
Up to that point in their lives, more is linked primarily to comparison of physical features,
30:03
a skill many animals have.
30:05
By the time that they're five or six, then they will prefer the dime because it's bigger.
30:10
But they now understand that more can be abstract. It can be the physical amount of something
30:15
and it can even be applied to something that is obviously less in a physical sense. So,
30:19
as this happens, humans enter into a cognitive world. He said your dog or cat will never
30:24
be able to enter. So as we learn the many relational frames, we move from being able
30:29
to derive relations by observing events in the world to being able to imagine relations
30:34
to conjure them up purely in our minds. And at this point, our thought processes are becoming
30:38
extremely complex, and we're building ever more elaborate networks of thoughts built
30:43
out of relations. He said a good way to appreciate the complexity follows from knowing many different
30:49
kinds of relations. It's to think about how enormously complex relations are. Just think,
30:54
think about that in an extended family.
30:57
And he goes on to give an example. He said, suppose I put up a photo of an Asian woman in her early thirties and one of a white woman who appears to be in her late fifties in front of you. And I say, these two people are from the same family. Without asking any questions, can you tell me how they're related?
31:10
And you'd have to answer no, because there are so many ways in which they might be. You might guess that the younger Asian woman had married the son of the older white woman, but it also turns out that the younger woman is a step sibling of the older woman because she's the daughter of the woman's father from a second marriage.
31:24
You know, he says the Asian woman might also be the daughter of the older white woman by blood or by adoption,
31:29
But she could also be a second cousin the daughter of one of the white woman's cousins
31:32
Perhaps the two of them are married,
31:34
So he said you don't need to see the other people in the family who are directly linked to one another in order to spin
31:39
out these possibilities in your mind and he said you can work all these possible relations out because you understand the many types of relations that can occur in families in
31:47
the abstract and,
31:48
And he said, don't we even call all of our relatives our relations?
31:52
And this allows you to imagine the many ways the two women could be related.
31:56
And if you're told the right relation, it could impact information about all the rest of the family
32:00
because relations like that combine in networks.
32:03
So finally, he says, the bottom line is that relational thought is much more complex than associative thought
32:08
because it allows us to fabricate relations in the abstract and then combine them into all these vast networks that are happening in our brain.
32:15
So, with associations, we make connections between things or events because they are
32:19
similar in a physical sense, or because they occurred together in time and space.
32:23
But then with relational thinking, we can connect things that have no physical relation
32:27
to one another, and they don't appear together in time and place.
32:30
Not only can we, but we constantly do, and the connections we make become really, really complex.
32:37
So I think that this is so important, again, trying to set the table, not only for conversation
32:42
and for communication, but just for understanding of the world in general, because, okay, let
32:47
me let me go open my window so I can get ready to yell at the kids to get off my lawn as
32:51
I sound old. But this is one of those fascinating things where I just feel like the world in
32:56
general has become more polarized. I see it in my office, I see it in politics, I see
33:01
it in people's opinions about all kinds of things. The rise of everything from conspiracy
33:06
theories to just people that are unwilling to step outside of their ego and start to
33:12
try and even understand and be curious about someone else's experience because there's
33:17
such a fear.
33:19
For some reason that that threatens their own belief system. When instead, if we could all be,
33:25
more open, more curious, recognize that we all have these relational frames that are very complex,
33:30
we're making associations that we are making. And we're just trying to make sense out of a
33:37
lot of times nonsense, looking for certainty where there really isn't any. And the reason
33:41
I like Dr. Hayes' example of the family of those two women in the family is because in that scenario,
33:49
it's a little bit easier if somebody says, Oh no, they're cousins. And somebody says, Oh, okay. I
33:54
thought it was this other thing. But if we say that around political things, then it's, those
33:58
are fighting words. And so that, I just think that stuff is so, so interesting. I turned to the world
34:06
of artificial intelligence, which I'm having just such a fun time with if you're using the right
34:11
prompts, if, and maybe I'll do an episode on that in the not too distant future. But I asked if,
34:16
If ChatGPT could break down relational frame theory, RFT, for an 8th grade audience,
34:21
I think this is one of the most fun things you can do, or ask it to be more conversational.
34:25
So, giving all credit to the robot. Imagine you're looking at a picture of a cute kitten
34:30
on a poster in your classroom. Immediately, you might think you're of your pet cat at home.
34:36
And then, maybe you remember a funny video you watched about cats, and then you might start
34:39
thinking about other animals like dogs or birds. Your mind just jumped from one idea to another,
34:44
making connections between them even if they weren't directly related. This ability of our
34:48
minds to relate things together, even if they're not exactly the same, is what RFT studies,
34:53
Relational Frame Theory, studies. It's like a big game of connect the dots, but in our brains.
34:58
I love that analogy.
35:00
So connect the dots but going on in our brains. So why does that matter?
35:04
You know how you can learn one thing in one situation and apply it somewhere else?
35:08
That's thanks to how our brains then connect ideas. So by understanding how our minds make these connections,
35:13
teachers, parents, and even therapists like myself can help people learn better,
35:17
solve problems, and even handle our feelings in a lot smarter ways.
35:21
I do have some examples of the significance of relational frame theory.
35:25
So one is learning language.
35:26
So imagine you're learning Spanish after you already know English.
35:29
English. So when you hear the word gato, which means cat in Spanish, your brain doesn't start
35:34
from scratch. It connects gato to your idea of cat, which might, which might be that image
35:39
of your pet cat or the funny video that you watch. But, but understanding these connections,
35:44
then teachers can make learning a language a lot easier and maybe even more enjoyable.
35:49
But let's talk about handling feelings. So let's say that you're feeling nervous about
35:52
giving a presentation at work or in church, your brain might connect presentation to judgment,
35:58
or connect presentation to making a mistake.
36:01
But if we understand how these connections work, then a therapist, a teacher,
36:06
somebody could help you reframe your thinking.
36:08
So instead of connecting presentation to this negative experience,
36:11
it might be able to help you connect it to accepting that there might be judgment or it might be fear,
36:18
but connect it to being able to share knowledge or connect it to new experiences.
36:24
So relational frame theory really is this map of how our brains play connect the dots
36:29
and I really like that.
36:30
So by understanding the map, then we can navigate our learning and as well as our feelings
36:35
in a lot different, in much better ways.
36:38
So then let's talk for a second about relational frame in relationships.
36:43
So the relational frame theory in relationships.
36:44
So if we go back to that connect the dots analogy, so then every person has their own unique way
36:50
of connecting their dots based on their experiences and upbringing, culture, personal preferences.
36:55
So then now go back to that concept of you're in a relationship with another human being
36:59
and they are playing a crazy game of connect the dots in their own mind.
37:04
I can only imagine how many dots are in the brain of somebody with ADHD.
37:09
And in relationships then these unique connections can sometimes cause misunderstandings because I'm figuring out the connect-the-dots in my own brain.
37:17
And so how would I understand what that connect-the-dots picture looks like in your brain?
37:22
So just go back to this concept of thinking of it as you and your partner using the same word, but you literally have different mental pictures or feelings attached to it.
37:32
If they don't recognize and address the differences, then it can lead to disagreements and hurt feelings and confusion.
37:38
Confusion. And I remember having a conversation in my office once with a couple, and the one of the spouses was talking about a bus. And the other
37:48
person said, was it a school bus or a Greyhound bus? And I just I think the
37:53
simplicity of that is so beautiful, because as soon as this person said bus,
37:57
they knew what kind of bus they meant. But to the other person, all of a sudden, it's a whole different landscape of what that the picture that they're,
38:06
trying to create in their own mind if it's a Greyhound bus or a school bus.
38:10
Now, heaven forbid too, that if the school bus had been a place of not a happy place
38:14
at all growing up, then school bus, now maybe it's the gray clouds are in the air
38:19
when they think of the school bus.
38:22
Or if it's like myself, my brother and I would get put on a Greyhound bus a long
38:25
time ago, so this wasn't considered to be something sketchy, and then pointed from
38:31
West Coast to East Coast to go visit the grandparents.
38:33
It's quite an adventure. We would just sit there in the front row of the Greyhound and it was fine.
38:37
So when I hear people talk about Greyhound buses, you often hear the jokes or that.
38:41
Oh man, pretty sketchy.
38:43
And I just think, oh no, it's the place where you just sit in the front seat and
38:45
the driver tells you when to get out and you get snacks from a vending machine.
38:50
And eventually you end up at your grandparents' house.
38:52
So, we just, we have these different relationships with words.
38:57
So, if the two people are having these different mental pictures and these different feelings
39:01
attached to it, if they aren't aware and can't recognize and address those differences, then
39:06
again we're back to that world of disagreements.
39:08
Let me lay out a narrative. So meet Sarah and Alex.
39:12
So Sarah grows up in a family where vacations meant going to a quiet beach town.
39:17
And her fondest memories include reading books by the shore, collecting seashells, enjoying
39:21
slow-paced days with her parents or siblings.
39:24
So when she hears the word vacation, oh, her mind just travels to the calming waves and
39:29
the sun and the smell of the paperback in her hand, you know, when she flips the pages
39:34
up by her nose and the smell of saltwater.
39:37
Alex, on the other hand, was raised in a family that loved adventure.
39:42
Their vacations involved hiking, skydiving, cave spelunking, exploring new cities, trying
39:49
exotic foods, and just being on the go nonstop.
39:52
So to him, the word vacation, it involves excitement, but it also brings up images of
39:58
backpacks and street food stalls and the time to date hot dogs off a Russian vendor's cart
40:04
and paid for it the next couple of days and bustling local markets and then just crashing
40:10
and being exhausted every night as they lay down in their tent on the hard, hard ground.
40:16
So let's put them in a room to plan their annual vacation. So Sarah says, Hey, I'm thinking of that beach in Malibu, it'll just be so serene.
40:23
She's imagining the peaceful days, sandy feet and the warmth of the sun.
40:27
And Alex wrinkles his nose and says, Malibu, I was thinking of backpacking in Peru or exploring
40:32
the streets of Bangkok.
40:34
He said, there's so much that we haven't seen. So he's picturing dynamic days filled with discovery, new experiences, vibrant scenes.
40:41
So now Sarah feels hurt and she feels so unseen, unheard. He's like, but vacations are for resting and recharging.
40:48
Knows that we can always explore the city on weekends because in her relational frame
40:53
Vacation equals rest.
40:56
And vacation equals beach and sun. And Alex, now he's frustrated and he responds,
41:01
but if we only get one big vacation a year, I don't want to just go sit around
41:05
because to him and his relational frame, vacation equals adventure.
41:09
What we have here is a good old classic case of different relational frames. So both Sarah and
41:15
Alex use the term vacation, but the mental, the emotional, even the sensory images connected to
41:21
that term, they're so different for each one of them. And this is a happy thing to argue about.
41:27
We're arguing about vacation and we're talking about practice, right? So you, and now go back
41:33
to all the things we talked about with relational frame theory today, and one can start to see why
41:38
it does take a lot of effort and curiosity and being intentional to be able to have a connection.
41:43
Now, if I'm painting a picture like, and so therefore it will never happen. Oh, by that is
41:49
To the contrary. I am a marriage therapist. The four pillars of a connected conversation are the
41:54
manna from heaven that are needed in order to have curiosity and a framework to be able to
41:59
communicate. Now, your job is still to be you and to use every conversation, every opportunity,
42:07
as somewhat of a muse to then say, this is a good conversation, or I've never thought of that, or
42:13
I'm not, I notice I'm not being curious. I need to lean into that. Or if the other person is trying
42:17
to tell you how you think and how you feel and there's no curiosity, then your opportunity to
42:22
self-confront and grow may mean to check your watch and say, oh my gosh, I forgot about a thing,
42:27
and then exit stage right.
42:30
So, again, the key to resolving differences, and it's so imperative to practice on what
42:38
I like to call the low charge topics, the low hanging fruit.
42:42
Things like vacations, things like truly, what is your favorite movie?
42:45
And it feels like you are not being productive, but I promise that if you have the right tools,
42:52
there's a lot more than just somebody saying, uh, Rocky, Oh, which one?
42:57
Three, Clever Lang, Mr. T. I'm a child of the 80s. But then when it's a, well, why?
43:04
What do you like about that? Oh man, I love the opening montage where Rocky's
43:08
getting soft and Clever Lang is, he'd show him just taking down everybody. As a
43:14
matter of fact, I'm literally right now, and that's not necessarily my favorite.
43:18
Movie, but I was just giving that as an example, but I often say, probably have
43:21
said on podcasts, that then when we're looking at the movie of your life and
43:24
the music montage comes on and here's what it looks like, maybe that's the genesis of
43:31
why I love music montage just so much because I don't know if that's the one that had Eye
43:34
of the Tiger going and Rocky's doing commercials and driving in his nice cars and Clever Lang
43:40
is just, oh he's training, he's just going to town. At that point we're learning who
43:45
Mr. T is, I Pity the Fool, the A-Team, there's so much going on there. So look at that relational
43:50
frame that's happening. So practice with the low charge topics. It is not a waste
43:55
of time. In my marriage course, the high charge topics I say are sex, politics,
43:59
religion, finances, and parenting. And so even when people come in to the marriage
44:05
therapist, they say, we have problems in these high charge topics.
44:09
Help us, oh wise one.
44:11
But they don't have the correct tools to communicate. They're not aware of relational frames
44:15
or of nonviolent communication, observation and judgment.
44:20
You know, they maybe aren't even necessarily aware of what they do to get rid of their discomfort,
44:24
how they shut down, they become victims, they get angry, they gaslight.
44:28
We haven't even taken the temperature in the room yet of emotional immaturity.
44:32
Heaven forbid, narcissistic traits and tendencies. So practice with the low charge topics.
44:39
That's one of the most important things that you can do in order to improve your communication with anybody.
44:45
Because here's the thing I could get in there and I do at times four pillar,
44:49
the high charge topics, and I watch as both people are still so defensive.
44:53
But if you start with the low charge topics and start to get to know your partner, your kids, those around you better and a more authentic way with the
45:01
low charge topics, then when you get to the high charge topics, you have such a,
45:07
different view of that person in general and yourself understanding that you.
45:12
Never quite had the right tools or knew the way to communicate and there was so
45:15
much underneath the surface of judgments and and assumptions being made that of
45:21
course we weren't aligned or had difficulties on the higher charge topics,
45:26
makes sense but now what honest-to-goodness an opportunity to start somewhat from scratch now breaking things down and digging all the way into
45:35
Hey, what's your relational frame like with with the movie Rocky? Tell me more,
45:40
again the key to resolving something in the case of Alex and Sarah is Open communication and understanding if they took a moment to share their childhood vacation memories their feelings their connections and the other person
45:50
didn't say, yeah, but, and they realized, oh, that is fascinating. Tell me more.
45:55
Because here's my experience.
45:57
Then they'd be in a better position to find maybe somewhat of the middle ground,
46:02
or they could pick a destination that offers both relaxation and adventure,
46:06
ensuring that both their needs and expectations are met, or one year it's adventure and one year
46:09
it's rest. So recognizing that everybody carries a unique set of dots and connections, it really can
46:18
be the first step toward a deeper understanding and a lot more harmony in the relationships.
46:25
I would love to know your experience of understanding or exploring this concept of a relational
46:31
frame. Maybe what did you learn?
46:34
Send me your examples. Send me your questions. I would love to do a follow-up on this as well.
46:38
As always, I appreciate your support.
46:40
I really do if you're still here at this point and you are ever interested in have
46:44
a corporate event or looking for someone to speak or even at your function or that sort
46:50
of thing, feel free to reach out.
46:51
As the world continues to open up post-pandemic, I get more requests for that.
46:54
And I really do love it. So if it's something that can work out time-wise, financially, then that would be just such
47:01
a blast. Have an amazing week, and I will see you next week on the virtual couch.
47:05
Taking us out per usual, the wonderful, the talented, the recently in my office, Aurora
47:10
Florence with her song.
47:12
Not as a client, that would be unethical. But if you haven't checked out Aurora and Jeff's episode about their WeFunder project
47:19
for their movie Too Soon, check out that episode.
47:21
I'm sorry, I just can't.
47:21
Music.