Latest / The Lila Rose Show / E276: ICE, Immigration, and the Truth Beyond the Headlines | Lila Rose Show

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E276: ICE, Immigration, and the Truth Beyond the Headlines | Lila Rose Show · The Lila Rose Show

0:00
A topic that has been on my mind now for months and we've
0:03
addressed on the show in the past, but not recently, is
0:07
immigration. You've seen the headlines in the
0:09
news. Virtually every single day there
0:11
is a new headline. And I believe this is an
0:14
absolutely essential topic for us to grapple with.
0:17
Welcome back to the Lila Roe show.
0:19
Today, we're going to run through some of the stories that
0:22
have been breaking about the deportations that are being made
0:25
by ICE, the actions of the Trump administration, the overall
0:29
crisis of illegal immigration in our country today.
0:33
And what is the right response? Because whenever I see these
0:35
news stories come across my social media feeds or I'm
0:38
reading the news and I see them, I think, OK, what is the right
0:42
posture that we should have individually to immigrants,
0:46
including undocumented or illegal immigrants?
0:49
And what is the right policy? What are the right policies that
0:53
our government should have? And so I'm going to tackle this
0:55
topic through the lens of of what is the Christians
0:58
responsibility for how we weigh justice, mercy, rule of law, as
1:03
well as welcoming the stranger immigrants.
1:06
How should we be thinking about these stories that we are seeing
1:08
constantly? And I hope that we'll provide
1:12
nuance in this episode because I do think sometimes when you're
1:15
seeing the headlines or you're seeing and hearing about it from
1:19
news media, whether they're podcasting or TV shows or
1:22
whatever it is, sometimes I think some key principles are
1:25
missing. And core nuance is missing as
1:29
well. So that's we're going to try to
1:30
do today. And I hope that this episode is
1:32
really helpful for all of you as you're navigating this and
1:34
thinking about these stories, as well as hopefully for other
1:37
people that we can share this episode with.
1:39
So. Let me start with a story that
1:40
caught my eye. Recently, and I've been seeing a
1:41
lot of these stories because on social media, especially
1:45
accounts that are very anti Trump, there's a lot of these
1:48
really heartbreaking stories about undocumented immigrants
1:51
who are getting deported. I want to share some of them,
1:53
ones that have caught my eye with you, and then share what I
1:56
think is some something about the background context here
1:59
that's important. So I saw this story.
2:01
There's a young woman named Naira Guzman.
2:04
She is from Illinois. She came to this country
2:07
undocumented, so illegally 3 years ago, but she requested
2:11
asylum. So she has a work permit and she
2:14
was, she got legally, she has a work permit and she's in the
2:17
process of having her asylum request done.
2:20
So in that sense, her status is really in a Gray area.
2:24
So she just had a baby and she has a daughter in NICU right now
2:29
at the hospital. And this is in Broadview, IL.
2:34
The daughter was born via C-section, so she's 15 days
2:37
after the birth. She's still recovering from the
2:39
C-section. Anyways, she and her mother and
2:41
her younger brother are going to the NICU in their car one
2:45
morning, and they've been doing this every day that her
2:47
daughter's been in NICU. And on the way there, she's
2:50
surrounded by ICE agents and she's ultimately taken away to
2:54
Broadview ICE Detention Center. She's held there for a little
2:58
over a day for 34 hours. She says she was not given any
3:02
medical care. It was overcrowded, unsanitary.
3:06
She called it medically or her attorney is calling it medically
3:08
negligent. They didn't provide her
3:10
sanitation pads for the bleeding that she's undergoing or check
3:14
on her status. She's also diabetic, so she
3:16
didn't wasn't provided anything for her diabetes.
3:20
She wasn't allowed a breast pump, so her milk dried out.
3:22
And all the time she's worrying about her daughter who's in
3:24
NICU. Anyways, eventually, after over
3:27
a day, she is let go. So I think the Trump
3:30
administration or ICE decided they made a mistake here.
3:32
They should not have detained her.
3:34
They let her go, thank God, and she was able to be reunited with
3:37
her newborn. But they said still put her
3:40
through this process, right? So that's an example.
3:42
And you see a story like that and it's very sad.
3:44
It's like she's away from her baby, her milk's drying up.
3:46
She's medically vulnerable or baby's medically vulnerable.
3:49
She had a work permit. She had applied for asylum.
3:52
Like why was this woman targeted?
3:54
There's no criminal history as as far as can be told from her,
3:57
her mother, her brother. So what is going on here?
4:00
There are a few other stories that are similar to this.
4:02
One of ICE raids that may have gone too far, right?
4:04
So there's Carrie Lopez Alvarado, who was a pregnant
4:08
U.S. citizen who ended up getting arrested alongside her
4:12
Guatemalan husband, and he didn't have his documentation,
4:16
but she was a citizen and pregnant.
4:18
They ended up realizing that they had made a mistake and so
4:21
they detained her overnight. But they ended up letting her go
4:25
and she ended up going into labor and she believes having an
4:29
early preterm birth because of the stress.
4:32
There's another woman, Andy Rodriguez, who was Colombian.
4:35
She was pregnant. She ended up having a
4:37
miscarriage in ICE custody because she felt she wasn't
4:41
being cared for. So there's her story now.
4:43
She was, I believe, undocumented and I believe is still in
4:47
custody. There's Antonio Aguilar
4:49
Maldonado, an El Salvadoran mother of two who was detained
4:52
on her way to work and held for nearly a month in a Minnesota
4:55
jail, which she was eventually let go as well.
4:57
But she had a 22 month old who was still nursing a baby at home
5:00
and who was also dependent on breast milk and that was just
5:03
left behind completely. So there's just no that baby
5:07
ended up just being basically abandoned, ended up having to be
5:10
cared for others, and Antonio was in jail for.
5:14
For a month. The a federal judge was a month
5:16
to order her release. So you're seeing these stories
5:18
now. Let's back out a moment for the
5:20
context. So you're probably listening to
5:22
this. And if you're more on the right,
5:23
you're thinking Lila, but you don't understand.
5:25
There have been truly millions of people who have entered the
5:27
country that are not documented. And we need to deport people.
5:31
We can't just have an open border and have people come here
5:34
illegally in the millions. It's not a sustainable model.
5:37
And there's a bunch of illegal immigrants who are criminals.
5:41
And so we need to crack down on that.
5:42
That's what Trump campaigned on. He's fulfilling his promise.
5:44
It needs to happen. It's tough 4 but it needs to
5:46
happen and surely some mistakes will be made.
5:48
So I know that that is, you know, playing the devil's
5:50
argument or that would be the position of people who are
5:53
thinking that overall this is the right thing to happen and.
5:57
And I'm going to say, first of all, I think there's some truth
5:59
to that in that we have had huge issues with illegal immigration.
6:04
We've had a very porous border. We've had millions of
6:06
undocumented immigrants enter this country, some of them
6:09
without good motives, not all, but some.
6:11
There are undocumented immigrants who are criminals,
6:14
who have a criminal record. This is beyond them coming here
6:17
as an undocumented immigrant. They actually are here and are
6:19
committing crimes. That is all true.
6:22
That being said, the question is what is the right posture for
6:24
ICE and for our government? How should they respond?
6:27
And I think it's a mistake. I think it's a mistake as
6:31
Christians, as conservatives, really as anyone to whether
6:36
you're left or right to say, OK, we have this issue of
6:39
immigration. Our immigration system is
6:40
broken. We need to fix it.
6:42
We have this issue with the porous border.
6:44
We have this issue with mass amounts of people who are not
6:47
documented. And there needs to be more
6:49
deportations, especially of those that are criminals.
6:51
I think it's 78% of Americans support deporting.
6:55
This is left and right, people on the left and the right, 78%
6:58
of Americans support deporting criminal undocumented immigrants
7:02
that they have a criminal record, right.
7:03
So a lot of people agree on that.
7:05
So you can say all that is true, but I think as always, it
7:10
matters tremendously how the government handles policy.
7:13
Even if it's a good policy, it matters how the government
7:15
handles policy. And it matters because innocent
7:18
people or vulnerable people, if they're swept up in a, in a
7:22
machine of activity of policy that is not respecting, of human
7:26
dignity, then they're not ultimately living out a just
7:31
system, acting out a just system.
7:33
They are actually committing injustices in the pursuit of
7:36
ultimate justice. And so I think there is an
7:39
essential nuance here for Christians, for people of
7:42
goodwill on the left or the right, that you can support
7:45
deporting criminal undocumented immigrants.
7:48
You can support and we should support a strong border and A
7:51
and a, and a, and a better immigration system that's not
7:54
broken. You can support all of that
7:56
while also acknowledging that there may be mistakes that ICE
8:00
is making that are not acceptable mistakes in the
8:03
treatment of individuals who are caught up in this, this machine
8:07
ultimately, right, of enforcement of immigration law.
8:11
And we should care about those issues.
8:13
We should not pretend like it doesn't matter.
8:15
And that's just the casualty of, you know, enforcing the system.
8:18
Oh, they're going to make some mistakes.
8:19
We got to just suck it up. We should be concerned about
8:22
that. And the reason that I'm saying
8:24
that is twofold. First of all, from a Christian
8:26
perspective, we have a mandate as Christians to respect human
8:29
dignity. And that doesn't mean just the
8:32
human dignity of U.S. citizens. Actually, that doesn't even just
8:35
mean the human dignity of non criminals.
8:37
It means the human dignity of every person.
8:40
And there is a certain approach to human dignity in how they are
8:45
treated with justice, that they are innocent until proven
8:48
guilty, that they, even if they are committing a crime, that
8:53
they're given due process if they're committing a crime, that
8:56
they are still not tortured or attacked or, you know, given
9:02
some, you know, horrific physical harm to them.
9:05
All of these things are part of supporting human dignity.
9:08
Now, you might be hearing that and say, well, if you're an
9:10
undocumented immigrant, you don't have the right to due
9:12
process. Actually, you get detained and
9:14
then you get deported. There's not necessarily a due
9:16
process the way you would have for someone who is a documented
9:19
immigrant or a resident AUS citizen.
9:21
But Even so, there must be standards.
9:23
There must be standards. And there's a reason why certain
9:29
communities in our country right now feel terrorized.
9:32
Because they see ice rates happening, they.
9:34
Don't know what to expect. They're unpredictable.
9:36
Here in Southern California, there's ICE rates happening at
9:38
high schools, at school graduations.
9:40
This happened last June. I heard these reports myself
9:42
from people in the community saying like ICE is showing up to
9:45
graduations of 8th grade students to take away the
9:48
parents. Now someone else may say, well,
9:50
the parents were undocumented, so they had it coming to them.
9:54
Yeah. If you're undocumented, yes,
9:55
you're, you're at risk, right? You might be deported, but does
9:59
that justify ICE showing up at a community event like a high
10:01
school graduation or or an eighth grade graduation and
10:05
doing a public active force, especially for nonviolent
10:08
offenders, and dragging away the parents of 8th graders?
10:10
Is that really the right policy? Is that the kind of immigration
10:13
system that we want to have in America?
10:16
And I would say, no, it's not. I think you can enforce
10:19
immigration law while still respecting human dignity and
10:23
still respecting really the, the protectiveness of the, the
10:26
peacekeeping of these human experiences, whether there are
10:31
homes, whether there are, you know, high school graduations or
10:35
8th grade graduations, or they're medically vulnerable
10:37
mothers who just had a baby, right?
10:40
And it's very important that our government or people who are in
10:44
our positions of power and authority are held to a high
10:47
standard. So people will say, well, ICE is
10:49
such a hard job. They're being hated on.
10:51
You know, the left hates ICE and these ICE agents are doing their
10:54
best and everything else. And I, I'm, I'm, I'm confident
10:57
there are many wonderful ICE agents and there's many
10:59
wonderful people in law enforcement.
11:01
I'm very proud of many of those that serve in our Armed
11:04
Services, who serve in our police departments, who are, are
11:07
working to, you know, enforce the law and keep, make our
11:11
community safe and peaceful, right?
11:12
And, and just places for us to live and thrive.
11:16
But we still need to hold our government to a high standard
11:20
because they have the power. They are backed literally by the
11:23
gun, right? They have force of power.
11:25
They can, they can arrest people, they can throw people in
11:27
jail. In some states, they can even
11:29
give them the death penalty. So we need to hold them to a
11:31
high standard. So if ICE is making mistakes, if
11:34
ICE is going against policy and targeting deportation on
11:37
nonviolent, medically vulnerable recent postpartum mothers,
11:42
right, of all the millions of immigrants to potentially
11:45
deport, are you going to deport the immigrant that has a work
11:48
visa, that is seeking asylum, that is nonviolent and that just
11:52
had a baby that's AUS citizen? Is that who you're going to
11:54
focus the power of the state on? Or maybe you can do what most
11:58
Americans do support and agree with, support the violent
12:00
offenders to support the criminals who have a criminal
12:02
record. Like why don't we focus on that,
12:04
be 100% clear there and then we can discern, OK, what's the
12:08
right policy for the rest of our undocumented immigrants in this
12:11
country? What's the best, most just
12:13
policy that actually works for the American people?
12:16
As opposed to saying, well, let's just go after whoever we
12:18
can and just grab this medically vulnerable post C-section
12:21
mother, right? So again, I know some people
12:24
listening might be saying, well, why?
12:25
Again, you're holding them to too high of a standard.
12:26
They've got a huge job, you know, a huge job cut out for
12:29
them. And yeah, there's a big job to
12:31
deal with our broken immigration system.
12:33
But we have to keep high standards for our government.
12:37
We have to. And so when I see these stories,
12:39
I just think, why? Why can't we do better than
12:41
this? Let's deport the violent
12:43
criminals. Let's deport people with those
12:46
criminal records. But is this the right answer?
12:49
And it's very telling with many of these stories that ICE, for
12:51
many of them, not all ends up letting them go because they're
12:53
like, oh, we made a mistake. This was not the right move.
12:56
Well, that in and of itself is an admission, right?
12:59
How do we improve the system so that we're not making these
13:02
arrests in the 1st place? How do we improve that system?
13:06
Because I don't think that these arrests, the the ones that I
13:09
just listed and the ones in that vein are supporting human
13:12
dignity. This is, of course, a very
13:14
contentious topic. As everybody listening knows,
13:17
there are over 11,000,000 unauthorized immigrants in the
13:20
United States right now. That's a lot of.
13:22
People and some of them, yes, have work permits.
13:25
Some of them have sought asylum, but some of them haven't, right?
13:28
And I think there is a unpredictability that many
13:32
immigrants, both documented and undocumented, feel in
13:36
communities where there are ICE raids.
13:38
Because if you don't know any time that you might get picked
13:41
up, even if you're AUS citizen because of the color of your
13:43
skin, or maybe you're married to somebody or someone's in your
13:46
family who's undocumented and you just don't know what's going
13:48
to happen any next moment. It instills a sense of fear,
13:51
dread, insecurity in a community.
13:54
And you know, again, playing devil's advocate, they could
13:56
say, well, that fear, insecurity, dread to some degree
13:59
is a good thing because we need to enforce immigration law and
14:01
people shouldn't think that they can just come here illegally.
14:03
So again, again, that's the argument for it.
14:06
But at the same time, creating that kind of enforcement policy
14:11
that relies on a sense of terrorization of the community
14:16
to make people not want to be part of, you know, be an
14:20
immigrant, period, right? I don't think that's the right
14:22
path either. I don't think it is.
14:25
And it it is. It doesn't just affect
14:28
undocumented immigrants. It affects the people that know
14:31
undocumented immigrants. It affects documented
14:34
immigrants. It affects US residents.
14:35
It affects U.S. citizens. It affects everybody, and we
14:39
don't want to live in a society where whether it is our police
14:44
or it is ICE or it's anyone, their mandate is to create
14:49
terror in the community as some sort of crime prevention path,
14:53
right? I don't think that's a good
14:55
mandate. Imagine if we had that a mandate
14:57
when it came to trying to prevent gangs.
14:58
Well, we just want to terrorize the gangs, so we're going to go
15:01
and like punch them or punch them in the face again, just as
15:03
a, as an example, right? No, you don't want the the
15:06
police just to go around. You want the police to have a
15:08
science show of force, force. You want them to be respected.
15:11
You want them to be able to be tough on crime, but you don't
15:14
want them to have a chilling effect on the whole acute
15:17
community where everybody isn't sure about, well, I might get
15:21
picked up even though I'm not a member of a gang and I'm
15:23
innocent, right? That's not a healthy community.
15:25
You don't want to live that way. You don't want to live in a
15:27
community where just because you have a certain skin color,
15:29
you're more scared of the police.
15:31
Right, that that's not a good thing, conservatives or
15:34
Christians, It's not because every human has equal dignity
15:38
regardless of their skin color. Of course, we all know that.
15:41
So again, I know some of this might be unpopular, what I'm
15:44
saying, or other people listen, they're like, yeah, of course
15:47
they're spot on, Lila. But I think these things are
15:50
essential when we're thinking about immigration policy and
15:53
immigration policy enforcement. Now, there's an existential
15:57
question at the heart of all of this, which is who are we as
16:00
Americans now? On the right, people, typically
16:05
on the right, and I consider myself definitely on more
16:07
conservative side. We consider ourselves as
16:10
America, a people. We are a.
16:11
People that is united by cultural, historical and moral
16:15
principles and we have boundaries.
16:17
We are a sovereign nation. We have a border.
16:19
We need to have that. And if we can't secure our own
16:23
border and enforce our boundaries, then we don't have a
16:26
actual sovereign country and national cohesion is an actual
16:29
illusion and we need to have some level of assimilation.
16:34
So if somebody comes here, they speak a totally different
16:37
language, they have a totally different social practice that
16:39
is actually in violation some days of our own legal code and
16:42
our own cultural customs that are good, right?
16:46
They're not operating as an American.
16:48
They need to come here and ultimately want to assimilate
16:51
and be part of the best things of America and improve the
16:53
things maybe that aren't so good, right?
16:54
Because I think, as you guys know, I'm a critic of America's
16:57
issues. We have our severe issues that
16:59
we need to improve on, but we have beautiful things about our
17:02
country that is the reason people want to come here right
17:05
now. More on the left side of the
17:07
equation or of the, you know, political sphere.
17:11
Their left view of who we are as an American people opposed to
17:14
the rights is more that America is an ideal based ongoing
17:17
project that's very flexible and can constantly evolve into
17:19
whatever it's going to become. And that it's not based on core
17:22
principles or values. Even like our Constitution.
17:24
They say Constitution's a living document.
17:26
It can change. And that we also I've heard a
17:29
lot of people on the left advocate for open borders that
17:32
we shouldn't even have a border. And I think that is a problem a
17:36
serious problem. I think you would need a
17:38
sovereign country needs to have a border.
17:39
We have a house with a wall and a door and a lock.
17:42
There's a reason for all of that.
17:44
Christian teaching affirms the existence and dignity of nations
17:49
will explicitly rejecting racial boundaries.
17:53
So what that means is a nation is a cultural and moral
17:56
community that has shared history, language, a spiritual
17:59
inheritance. It has a right to exist.
18:02
Nations have a right to exist and preserve its culture.
18:04
But the term nation cannot be confused with race, because if
18:08
your nation is based on the color of people's skin, that is
18:12
not advancing human dignity, that's actually creating
18:15
division based on racism. The Church holds that every
18:19
human and institutional relationship is based on mutual
18:21
obligation. So even when we make the
18:23
distinction between outsiders and insiders, we have duties to
18:26
fulfill. What are those duties?
18:28
This is Christian teaching. Migrants, whether they're here
18:33
on a questionable documentation or they're fully documented,
18:36
must never be dehumanized. Nobody should be dehumanized.
18:41
And treated with arbitrary cruelty or abject negligence.
18:44
We need humane legal processes. We need safeguards against
18:48
exploitation in the enforcement processes.
18:51
We need to support family unity as best we can, so keep, you
18:54
know, parents with their children as best we can.
18:57
We need secure borders. Actually, that's important to
19:01
have a secure border with clear rules and humane enforcement.
19:04
And we need protection for refugees who genuinely are
19:07
fleeing danger. Many of these people, like the
19:09
woman I mentioned earlier, Naira Guzman, who had the C-section
19:13
and the baby and NICU and that was detained by ICE suddenly on
19:15
the way to visit her baby. She was here fleeing violence in
19:19
her home country. So these are all, I think,
19:23
aspects of Christian teaching now.
19:26
I think it's also important to get to What do migrants owe?
19:31
Immigrants owe their host countries so.
19:33
We're going to get into that next because this is where I
19:36
think the argument on the right especially becomes more full
19:39
force. And I, I wanted to start with
19:43
some of the issues I'm seeing with ICE immigration
19:46
enforcement, but I think there's also some issues, serious issues
19:52
that are the reasons. For the deportation policies of
19:57
the Trump administration, I think we're going to land with a
19:59
lot of this is, again, you can have a deportation policy, but
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harmful, but to also avoid over stimulating video content that's
21:11
linked to mental and behavior issues.
21:13
Brave Plus only accepts one in every 20 shows that they review.
21:17
When you check it out, you'll find classics like Strawberry
21:19
Shortcake, Babar, Paddington, as well as new shows like Season 2
21:23
of Iggy and Mr. Kirk starring Kirk Cameron.
21:26
And right now, just for my listeners, you can try Brave
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Plus free for seven days. Go to braveplus.com/lila.
21:33
That's braveplus.com/lila for a free seven day trial.
21:39
So let's go to some of those stories.
21:41
In June 2024, two men from Venezuela, Johan Jose Martinez
21:45
Rungal and Franklin Jose Penne Ramos, raped and murdered 12
21:49
year old Jocelyn Nungare and left her body in a Creek in
21:51
North Houston, TX. You might have heard.
21:53
About this case, it was last year.
21:55
Both of these men were here illegally and had been released
21:57
into the country after being apprehended at the border.
22:00
So this was a catch and release under the Biden administration
22:03
where people would be apprehended and then just
22:05
released. They weren't taken deported,
22:07
They weren't taken into detention.
22:08
They were just actually just released, right?
22:10
And the the consequence of this policy, if you have some
22:13
criminal men or men who become criminal men, people who become
22:16
criminal and they commit heinous acts like these two men did
22:19
these two undocumented immigrants another famous.
22:23
Story was last year Jose Antonio Ibarra was a criminal illegal
22:28
alien from Venezuela. He was part of the violent gang
22:32
Trende Agua. You guys have probably heard
22:34
about them. There are a lot of undocumented
22:37
men and some women in this country who are part of this
22:39
violent gang. He murdered and intended to rape
22:42
Lake and Riley. You remember her story, that
22:45
University of Georgia nursing student on her morning run.
22:47
Again, a horrific story, right? There's a story of Julia Cookout
22:51
Bowl who killed Katie Abraham in Chicago while drunk driving and
22:55
hit in a hit and run. He was also a criminal, illegal
22:59
aliens, and not just here undocumented, but also a
23:00
criminal and has still not been deported and then killed a girl
23:04
in a hit and run while drunk driving.
23:06
There's the other famous story that just happened.
23:08
Brian Alva Rodriguez, a Guatemalan citizen who was here
23:12
illegally has a history of drunk driving.
23:15
So a criminal record had already been ordered deported.
23:19
So there's already deportation order that's active for this
23:22
person from Brian. And Brian kills an 8 year old
23:25
girl in a head on vehicle collision here in San Diego
23:28
County. So just close to where we're
23:29
filming this today, illegal immigrant with prior DU is
23:32
deportation order charged and crashed, killing eight-year old
23:35
California girl. So American people look at this
23:38
and say this is ridiculous. These are people who should have
23:41
obviously not been here. They should have already been
23:43
deported and now they're killing or harming, you know, innocent
23:46
people in the United States. And that's where all of this
23:50
frustration, a lot of it stems from with the lack of
23:54
deportation policy that the Biden administration had when
23:57
Joe Biden was president. There was some deportation that
23:59
actually did happen. There's actually a lot people
24:01
don't realize, but they're this is being obviously ramped up
24:04
under Trump. It's interesting, by the way, as
24:06
a side note, Joe Biden very rarely got people upset with him
24:11
for deporting people. Some of those same people are
24:13
now upset at Trump. And so it's like the part
24:15
they're the partisan nature of this is obviously alive and
24:17
well. So you get mad at Trump for
24:19
doing the same things that Biden did just because he's Trump.
24:21
That being said, there are many of these stories of violent
24:25
crime coming from undocumented immigrants hurting American
24:28
women in horrific ways, all of which could have been avoidable
24:31
with more sane border policies, a stronger border to prevent
24:34
these illegal entries, right? And so a lot of Americans are
24:39
thinking we need to. This is ridiculous.
24:42
There's also a lot of Americans who are suffering and are broken
24:44
economy today and who believe that undocumented immigrants are
24:47
taking their jobs or otherwise mooching off of the system, like
24:52
our safety net system. And so they're taking advantage
24:54
of ultimately government programs that taxpayers fund.
24:57
And so they're saying that's not fair and they're just mooching
24:59
off the system. Are all of these concerns fully
25:03
based on reality? Yes and no is my answer.
25:05
Yes, it is true. I believe that if you're an
25:08
undocumented immigrant, you're committing acts of crime here.
25:10
You should 100% be deported. So the fact that these men with
25:14
criminal histories were not deported already is a travesty,
25:18
right? However, that being said, on a
25:21
national aggregate level, evidence shows lower overall
25:25
crime rates among immigrants and natives.
25:28
Now, it's tricky to track immigration status in criminal
25:33
proceedings. So if a if a immigrant is in a
25:35
criminal proceeding, these numbers might be inflated.
25:37
This is a statistic that the left often brings up.
25:40
Like immigrants are actually less violent than American
25:43
citizens. So for every murder you hear
25:45
about from an undocumented immigrant, there's many more
25:47
percentage wise from American citizens.
25:50
It's very hard to get to the bottom of those statistics.
25:53
I would say in a sense, it doesn't matter who's more
25:55
violent or not. If you're here undocumented and
25:58
you're committing violent crimes, I think that's a no
25:59
brainer. I think most Americans agree on
26:01
the left and the right you should be deported or really any
26:04
crime you can be deported. You look also at a lot of the
26:09
origin countries that undocumented immigrants are
26:11
coming from, and there's a lot of cultural patterns of
26:15
potential sexual violence in some of these countries.
26:18
The UN has reported on femicide in Central America, so this is
26:22
basically a cultural bent towards committing more violence
26:24
than you might even see here in the US.
26:27
The World Health Organization has data that shows an extremely
26:30
high sexual abuse rate and normalization in parts of South
26:34
America. As an example, machismo
26:38
cultures. So men taking advantage of
26:40
women, young women, familial silence, families not wanting to
26:43
deal with this culturally leading to extremely high rates
26:46
of childhood sexual assault. So these are all real things
26:49
that, again, immigrant communities might be bringing
26:51
here that we need to be aware of and again, lend to the side of
26:54
the argument that says we should err on the side of more
26:57
deportations, not less. And then the question ultimately
27:00
comes down to here, what kind of norms should we have in our
27:04
public policy and the enforcement of it with all of
27:06
these things being true? And I think it goes back to a
27:08
strong border. Yes, deportation is important,
27:12
but how it's done matters. How it's done matters.
27:15
And then the question to ask is what do immigrants owe their
27:19
host country? I spoke to this a little bit
27:20
already. Immigrants owe the United
27:23
States, I think, and I think this is partly Christian
27:26
teaching. They owe their hard work and
27:30
their law abiding behavior. They owe gratitude for their new
27:35
home country, a sense of patriotism and love for that
27:39
country, an absolute respect for the laws of the receiving
27:44
country and the norms, the culture of the receiving
27:46
country, a work ethic to contribute to the common good, a
27:50
participation in the civic life and without undermining the
27:53
social order. And I do think a lot of
27:55
immigrants are doing this beautifully.
27:56
I know immigrants who are doing this.
27:58
But I think it's important to call out these are the things
28:00
that I do think immigrants are owed their home country or their
28:03
new adoptive country. So I want to go back to.
28:09
What is the Christian response here?
28:10
I've mentioned it a few times. There was another news story
28:12
here. You might have seen this one,
28:16
but there is a church in Boston that has a exhibit out.
28:23
Here's a picture of it. The Boston Archdiocese that has
28:28
a church with a Nativity display featuring an Ice was Here sign
28:32
in a Christmas Manger scene that had Jesus, Mary and Joseph
28:36
missing. So these are this is a parish
28:38
where presumably the priest was really upset about ICE raids,
28:42
thinks it's wrong. And so he's saying like ICE
28:44
would have deported the Blessed Mother, right?
28:46
That's the the vibe here. Now, interestingly, the
28:49
archdice's boss and said, no, no, no, you're not allowed to do
28:51
that. That's a heavily politicized
28:53
message that is not fully accurate.
28:56
It's not accurate, It's not fair.
28:58
And so it needs to be removed. And the Archdiocese of Boston
29:02
said that this was divisive political messaging and called
29:05
for it to be removed, saying that it violated Catholic
29:07
doctrine. I think this is an important
29:10
point to acknowledge here because, again, a lot of
29:12
Christians are being told that if you are in support of any
29:14
deportation policy, then you're somehow violating your faith.
29:18
And as I've been saying in this episode, that's not the case.
29:21
You can be in support of unjust or disruptive enforcement of
29:26
immigration policy that terrorizes communities or
29:28
targets the wrong people. But to say with a broad brush
29:31
that ICE would have deported the Blessed Mother in Saint Joseph,
29:34
I think is wrong. And that archdiocese is saying
29:36
that. The archdiocese is also saying
29:38
this not just because of the politics of it, but be saying
29:41
it's you're utilizing Jesus and a nativity scene to make a
29:43
political point and that's not OK.
29:45
I think that was their biggest issue with it.
29:48
And they say, quote, the people of God have the right to expect
29:51
that when they come to church, they will encounter genuine
29:54
opportunities for prayer and Catholic worship, not divisive
29:57
political messaging. The church's norms prohibit the
29:59
use of sacred objects for any purpose other than the devotion
30:03
of God's people. The display should be removed in
30:06
the Manger, restored to its proper sacred purpose.
30:09
So the diocese wasn't even Archdiocese of Boston wasn't
30:12
even disagreeing fully with the political message per SE.
30:15
It's just saying that political messages around the crush and
30:18
around the nativity scene, the crush of Jesus Christ, you know,
30:21
around Christmas time or Advent is not acceptable period is the
30:24
message of the archdiocese. Now the the other part of this,
30:32
and this is a quote from an spokesperson for ICE, is the
30:38
they were saying very upset about the priest that was behind
30:41
this display. But they said that there is a
30:45
1150% increase in assaults on ICE officers and that there have
30:50
been over 250 attacks on ICE officers just this year, along
30:54
with an increase in doxing, stalking and death.
30:55
Threats. And so ICE is saying, look,
30:58
we're trying to do a job and you're just attacking our brave
31:00
ICE agents. We're not all bad.
31:03
Of course not. We're we're good, actually.
31:04
We're trying to enforce US immigration policy and the
31:08
mandate of this administration and keep our communities
31:10
actually safe. And now you're just attacking
31:11
us. And I think that's obviously an
31:14
important thing to weigh here too, in that when you're hearing
31:17
these stories about mistakes that ICE is making or even bad
31:20
actions that ICE is taking, right, that may be objectively
31:23
bad, You have to. Realize that that doesn't
31:26
justify then attacks on ICE agents, which are also bad and
31:31
wrong, and that is. Part of the full story, and it
31:35
goes back to the foundational point I made at the beginning,
31:37
which is that we need to defend human dignity, whether that's
31:40
the human dignity of an ICE agent or the human dignity of an
31:42
immigrant, whether they're undocumented or not.
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33:32
about the removing of children from their parents.
33:36
This is something I care a lot about, as you guys may imagine,
33:39
you know, speaking as a pro-life advocate and we care a lot about
33:42
families on the show. And I'm more of the position and
33:47
I have been in the past that we should avoid that for an for
33:51
nonviolent non criminal offenders, especially if the
33:54
only offense is a potential illegal entry of the country or
33:57
maybe they're an asylum status seeking that.
34:00
So it's kind of dubious. Or maybe they're in the process
34:03
of of getting naturalized and getting their citizenship or
34:06
their residency to separate parents from their very young
34:10
children Should be. Avoided for the sake of the
34:13
children. And people might hear that and
34:16
say, well, when we arrest a criminal, they're obviously
34:19
separated from their parents. That's just tough luck.
34:22
But there's more nuance here objectively, because it's not
34:25
just about breaking some US statute, right, or law.
34:29
It's a part about what kind of law is it, right?
34:32
So like, if you're doing speeding on the freeway, you're
34:36
breaking the law. But should you be thrown into
34:38
jail? For a week and.
34:39
Separated from your children? No, there's you know that the
34:41
penalty has to fit the crime, right?
34:43
And if you're a nonviolent non criminal offender, who's here
34:47
and you are, you're not an offender.
34:48
I'm saying you're here and you came here undocumented, but
34:52
you're in this asylum seeking process, right?
34:55
Does a punishment fit the potential not even crime that
34:58
doesn't exist to separate you from your young children or in
35:01
this case of this mother? We we started this episode with
35:04
Naira. You just had a baby of AC
35:06
section scar. You need medical treatment and
35:08
you have a NICU baby and now you're being thrown into
35:09
detention. Is that really what we should be
35:11
doing with our ICE, with our ICE officers?
35:14
Is that the best use of their time?
35:16
Of all the people to deport, is she the one to be focused on?
35:19
So I hope we can take 10 steps back here.
35:22
We can pause and look at these stories, understand that there's
35:25
two sides to many of these stories.
35:26
I tried to share both sides and share both of these stories that
35:30
are often shared on the right versus the left and say that
35:33
this is not about left versus right, but this is about what is
35:35
the just and merciful and Christian response to
35:38
immigration. And all of these things are true
35:41
at once. We need a secure border.
35:42
We need to have respect for rule of law.
35:44
We need to have respect for our ICE agents and respect for our
35:48
government. That is very important.
35:50
And I think we should be like 78% of Americans agree,
35:53
deporting violent undocumented immigrants.
35:55
But when it comes to nonviolent, potentially undocumented
35:58
immigrants where there's even a question of their status, having
36:02
acts that are intentionally trying to create fear and
36:05
distrust in communities, like showing up at 8th grade
36:08
graduations, showing up at A to a woman who is here seeking
36:14
asylum who just had a baby with AC section scar and throwing her
36:17
into a dirty detention cell. Are those the right solutions?
36:21
No, I don't think they are. And I think we can feel
36:23
confident saying no, we shouldn't be afraid.
36:26
That's what concerns me the the most.
36:28
And I'll, I'll end with this. What concerns me the most when
36:31
we talk about this topic of immigration is our fear of being
36:35
on the wrong side of the political argument and getting
36:38
pushback from friends, family or social media.
36:41
And so we're unwilling to say what we really think is true and
36:46
because it might be unpopular. And the Christian person, the
36:50
person who cares about justice and mercy.
36:52
Should be willing to say all the true things at once.
36:55
What I said earlier about the right to a strong border, yes,
36:57
deportations can be necessary, and I think right now in many
37:00
cases they are. But we should not be throwing
37:04
the weight of ICE against girls like naira, against immigrants
37:09
like naira. And I think we can say that.
37:12
And that doesn't mean we don't support elements of Trump's
37:15
immigration policy. That doesn't mean we're for open
37:17
borders. It just means that we want rule
37:20
of law, we want safe peaceful communities.
37:23
And the way to go about it is not the way that ICE attempted
37:26
in this case, but the way that ICE can go about it.
37:29
That would be good is focusing on criminal offenders, those
37:32
with Trinagua gangs, you know, being cracking down on that,
37:37
cracking down on a secure border to a prevent future illegal
37:40
entries. Those are all things we can get
37:42
behind. So let's continue to advance a
37:45
willingness to speak about this boldly without and being afraid
37:50
of what people think about us and say that ICE, we need an ICE
37:55
in this country. ICE is good to have an
37:57
immigration enforcement system, but it has to operate with
38:00
respect to human dignity and justice.
38:03
And it's not good to go to some of the lengths that it has gone
38:08
that these mistakes, some mistakes should not be made.
38:11
And we need to speak up when those are made and say this is
38:14
not OK. Let me know what you all think
38:17
in the comments. I'm always interested to see
38:19
what the show community thinks. You're all very thoughtful and
38:21
you care about human dignity and these policies.
38:24
Let's pray for our immigration enforcement system and the
38:29
people involved in it to act with justice and to act with
38:34
respect for human dignity. Let's pray for immigrants, and I
38:38
mean, including some undocumented immigrants who are
38:41
here who are figuring out their documentation status.
38:44
Maybe they were brought here as children where they were brought
38:46
here and they are fleeing violence or persecution.
38:52
And let's pray for a just path to legalization for them that
38:58
will benefit not just them, but America.
39:00
And let's pray for a stronger enforcement system so that we
39:05
don't have so many undocumented people here and all of the
39:10
problems that that creates both for those people and for the
39:13
rest of the country. It's Christmas.
39:16
We're about to celebrate the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ.
39:20
And you know, when people compare undocumented citizens to
39:24
Mary and Joseph, it's a little tenuous because they were
39:26
documented. They were actually going plus
39:28
part of the census to register with the Roman government.
39:31
So they weren't like illegally entering country, right?
39:35
But when they fled to Egypt, when Joseph got a dream that
39:37
Herod was coming after Jesus, they went and fled into Egypt.
39:41
Now, did they respect the border of Egypt?
39:42
Did they kind of trespass into Egypt?
39:44
What happened with their refugees seeking status?
39:47
I don't know. I'm sure they tried their best
39:49
to obey the laws of Egypt, knowing Mary and Joseph as
39:52
nearly perfect, and Joseph being a man of tremendous virtue and
39:55
Mary being, I believe, without even original sin.
39:58
I'm sure they did their very best to apply, you know, abide
40:01
by any law. But I also think it's good that
40:04
they were able to seek refugee status in Egypt.
40:08
That's a beautiful thing. And I think the heart of the
40:11
message, the Christian message is respecting human dignity and
40:15
welcoming the stranger. That is in Scripture again and
40:18
again and again. And I want to read that because
40:21
I think it's very much part of the Christian spirit of
40:23
welcoming the child, welcoming the vulnerable, Yes, welcoming
40:26
the stranger. Now, that doesn't mean you're
40:28
like, well, Lila there, what if they're criminals?
40:30
No, that doesn't mean welcoming someone violent into your home
40:32
is going to hurt you. No, that's not what I'm talking
40:34
about. But I am talking about a, a
40:37
posture of seeing outsiders, not as threats or enemies, but
40:42
seeing them as people that we could potentially welcome in and
40:45
then having boundaries for where maybe they're not, they
40:48
shouldn't come in because of their criminal status or, you
40:51
know, we're at capacity as a country, etcetera.
40:54
But let's read something from scripture about the treatment of
40:57
those that are not one of us already.
41:00
And again, you can still support national sovereignty, a strong
41:03
border, immigration enforcement, but these are some core
41:07
Christian principles towards generosity and the welcome of
41:10
those that are the other Exodus 23 nine, you shall not oppress A
41:14
sojourner. You know the heart of a
41:16
sojourner for you or sojourners in the land of Egypt.
41:20
Egypt. What are sojourners?
41:21
People that are coming from their native land, seeking a new
41:24
home, because of loss, because of fear, because of famine,
41:29
because of violence, because of just seeking a better life for
41:31
themselves, You should welcome ultimately the sojourner.
41:35
You should not oppress them. Deuteronomy 10/19 You shall also
41:39
love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.
41:43
Deuteronomy 2719. Cursed as anyone who withholds
41:46
justice from the foreigner, the fatherless, or the widow.
41:50
Jeremiah 757 If you truly amend your ways and your doings, if
41:54
you act truly, if you truly act justly with one another, if you
41:57
do not oppress the alien, the widow, or the orphan, or shed
42:01
innocent blood in this place, or go after your own gods to your
42:04
own hurt, I will drill with you into this place, in this place,
42:06
in the land that I gave of all to your ancestors, forever and
42:09
ever. Ezekiel 4722.
42:12
You shall allot it as an inheritance for yourself.
42:14
And for the. Aliens who reside among you and
42:15
have begotten children among you, they shall be citizens.
42:19
They shall, they shall be to you as citizens of Israel.
42:21
With you they shall be allotted and inheritance among the tribes
42:24
of Israel. Matthew 54344 You've heard it
42:28
said You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.
42:30
But I say to you, love your enemy and pray for those who
42:33
persecute you. Matthew 2535 I was hungry and
42:37
you gave me food. I was thirsty and you gave me
42:39
drink. I was a stranger and you
42:40
welcomed me. And then Matthew 2540.
42:44
This is a very the very compelling command, command from
42:49
our Lord. Truly, I say to you as you did
42:52
it to one of the least of these brethren, you did it to me.
42:56
And then Romans 12/13 contribute to the needs of the Saints,
42:58
extend hospitality to strangers. Now this doesn't mean we can't
43:03
have a border. It doesn't mean we can't enforce
43:05
immigration law, but it does mean that our posture should.
43:08
Be 1 of. Welcome it should be.
43:10
Overall, our posture should be 1 of welcome.
43:14
And I want to. Close with the analogy of our
43:15
home, our homes, the Christian home.
43:19
The Christian home has four walls.
43:21
The Christian womb often has a fence in the front.
43:24
The Christian home has a door with a lock and a key.
43:26
Those are all normal, natural, just like nations have those
43:30
things. But the Christian home has a
43:33
posture of welcome. They want to welcome in.
43:35
Even if someone knocks on the door asking for bread, they want
43:38
to give that bread and help that person, right?
43:40
The beggar, so to speak, right? The Christian home is a place
43:44
that you want to be willing to receive into IT people from the
43:49
community, including those that are strangers who don't already
43:52
have friends or do don't already have loved ones.
43:55
But the Christian home, the Christian parents, also have the
43:57
responsibility to protect the safety and the justice.
44:02
And the and the. Peace of the home.
44:04
So they have to vet the people that they're going to invite
44:07
into their home, at least to some degree, of course, right.
44:10
So all these things are true at once.
44:13
But the posture of the Christian home should ultimately not.
44:16
We wanted like fear of the other, like, oh, we just don't
44:18
let anyone over because they might make a mistake or they
44:20
might not be. They might be out to get our
44:22
family or something. The, the overall posture of the
44:25
Christian home should be 1 towards generosity towards the
44:28
community, especially other Christians.
44:30
Yes, we have to love our brothers or Christian brothers
44:32
and sisters, but to people beyond that for the sake of
44:35
sharing the gospel. So all those things are true at
44:37
once. How do you manage that in the
44:39
day in day out? There's prudence and there has
44:42
to be a high standard that the, the, the man and woman of the
44:46
home hold themselves to, right? You can't say, well, I just
44:50
roughhoused that guy coming in because he thought he might be a
44:53
criminal, but I made a mistake and he was actually my
44:55
brother-in-law. You know what I'm saying?
44:56
Just as an example, right? You know, you got to have a high
44:59
standard to how you behave in your own home because you are,
45:03
you know, you have that authority and that
45:05
responsibility, but you also are owed the respect of people who
45:10
come to your home, that they will respect the rules of your
45:12
home. So both things are true.
45:15
And similarly, that is true for the borders of this country and
45:18
for the government of this country.
45:20
So as Christians, we're generous.
45:24
We support rule of law. We welcome the stranger, but we
45:26
also understand that we want to build a culture and a society
45:30
that has an assimilation process to help people live by the norms
45:33
and the laws of this country. All these things are true at
45:36
once. I hoped you like my quadruple
45:39
dose of nuance for the day, but I thought I felt all these
45:42
things needed to be said. Thanks again everybody.
45:45
Let me know what you all think in the comments.
45:47
I'm always interested to hear from you.
45:48
You can also e-mail the show at thoughts@lilarocheshow.com.
45:51
That's thoughts at lilarocheshow.com.
45:53
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45:55
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46:42
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46:44
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