Latest / The Lila Rose Show / E102: The Evidence and Science of the Resurrection w/ Fr. Robert Spitzer, S.J.

Transcript

E102: The Evidence and Science of the Resurrection w/ Fr. Robert Spitzer, S.J. · The Lila Rose Show

• 0:00
  So I want to start with the case for Jesus Christ as the
• 0:02
  resurrected Son of God. There's three ways we can
• 0:05
  approach it on the Shroud of Tehran.
• 0:07
  There is truly scientifically accessible evidence for the
• 0:11
  resurrection as well. What you're saying is we have
• 0:14
  remnants of Jesus's resurrected body on the Shroud of Turin.
• 0:18
  Literally, Jesus is leaving us the particles of his body
• 0:23
  embedded in the cloth which has produced this picture.
• 0:32
  Hello everybody. Welcome back to the Lila Rose
• 0:35
  Podcast. This episode is coming out on
• 0:37
  Holy Thursday. The beginning of it is called
• 0:40
  the Easter Triduum, the three days leading up to the
• 0:43
  resurrection of Jesus Christ, and Christians all over the
• 0:47
  world are celebrating these very holy days.
• 0:50
  This episode is really special because we're going to be
• 0:52
  talking about the evidence and the science for the resurrection
• 0:57
  of Jesus Christ. Listen, Jesus Christ's
• 1:00
  resurrection is of course a deeply held belief, A passionate
• 1:04
  matter of faith for 1,000,000 billions of Christians
• 1:07
  worldwide. But the resurrection of Jesus
• 1:09
  Christ is not solely A belief. It is a matter of scientific
• 1:13
  evidence and historical record. And today we have on renowned
• 1:18
  physicist, philosopher, and priest Father Robert Spitzer,
• 1:21
  the author of many books. He's the former president of
• 1:24
  Gonzaga University. He's also the head of the Magis
• 1:28
  Institute. And Father Spitzer has spent
• 1:31
  decades studying the science and the evidence behind the
• 1:35
  resurrection of Jesus Christ. You will find his commentary
• 1:38
  fascinating. I was especially blown away by
• 1:42
  the commentary from Father Robert Switzer in the latter
• 1:44
  half of our interview where he discusses the Shroud of Turin,
• 1:48
  which is a real cloth from almost 2000 years ago that was
• 1:52
  wrapped around Jesus Christ and the historical evidence for that
• 1:56
  fact along with the scientific evidence that shows that yes,
• 2:01
  Jesus Christ resurrected his body resurrected from the Shroud
• 2:06
  of Turin. For those who are observing Good
• 2:08
  Friday, the Passion of our Lord, this episode will also give you
• 2:11
  great food for thought and meditation about what Jesus
• 2:14
  Christ suffered, as the Shroud of Turin reveals truly what our
• 2:19
  Lord endured for the salvation of souls.
• 2:22
  Enjoy this episode and have a very blessed Easter.
• 2:25
  Father Spitzer, welcome back to the podcast.
• 2:27
  Oh, it's always great to be with you, Lila.
• 2:30
  Thank you. I'm so delighted you're back.
• 2:32
  You were a big hit on our conversation about science and
• 2:36
  God, science and faith. Much more to go on that.
• 2:40
  So. I think we can.
• 2:41
  Explore it a little more deeply today if.
• 2:43
  I'm not. Mistaken, I think.
• 2:45
  So we're going to get into miracles, the evidence for
• 2:50
  Christ's resurrection. Oh yeah, absolutely.
• 2:54
  But first of all, for people who don't know you yet, who is
• 2:57
  Father Robert Spitzer? Well, I'm a Jesuit priest.
• 3:01
  I'm the president of the Maja Center of Reason and Faith and
• 3:05
  that if I might shamelessly advertise is majacenter.com,
• 3:10
  magiscenter.com where we have loads and loads of free videos,
• 3:16
  free articles on all the topics we're discussing today.
• 3:20
  And so if people want to go there or get some, you know,
• 3:26
  modules for their high school or middle school kids, they're
• 3:30
  there. It's free of charge. 90% of the
• 3:33
  website is free of charge. And so I would just beg you to
• 3:39
  to take a look at it. I have 18 books, but I'm not
• 3:43
  selling them right now. But a lot of them concern faith
• 3:46
  and science, and a lot of them concerned happiness and
• 3:50
  philosophy of culture and a variety of other things.
• 3:53
  And we do, you know, a lot of things like, especially we have
• 3:58
  a high school and a middle school program that we bring out
• 4:01
  through Sophia Institute for Teachers, and it's called the
• 4:05
  Catholic Faith in Science. This is a senior elective for
• 4:11
  Catholic High schools and we have a moral apologetics one.
• 4:14
  You know, why in the world does the Catholic Church's morality,
• 4:18
  especially on the controversial issues, make sense?
• 4:21
  So we have a whole program on that for the 2nd semester
• 4:25
  elective and that comes if you just go to Sofia Instant for
• 4:29
  teachers, you can see that program there, any high school
• 4:34
  that wants it, you know, I'm happy to talk to people,
• 4:37
  teachers about it or bringing it on to your diocese, if you're
• 4:41
  part of a diocese. And obviously we're very anxious
• 4:47
  too to bring our middle school curriculum called Speak the
• 4:50
  Faith to the kids. That's really about faith in
• 4:53
  science as well, so that they can be equipped to defend their
• 4:57
  faith when they're going to be challenged by it in the secular
• 5:01
  community. Awesome.
• 5:02
  And you are also you were also the president of Gonzaga
• 5:05
  University at one point, and then you were you're also a
• 5:08
  physicist. I'm a philosophy of science guy,
• 5:11
  but my emphasis is physics. So I come in philosophy of
• 5:14
  science from a space-time and gravitational theory rather than
• 5:19
  from quantum theory, which is another approach.
• 5:24
  I'm on the physics side of things.
• 5:26
  There are very good philosophy of science guys in biology like
• 5:30
  good doctor Dan Keebler and so forth.
• 5:33
  But that's where I I make my approach.
• 5:36
  And so I do sneak a few little aspects of physics into my
• 5:42
  talks, and hopefully don't go over too many people's heads.
• 5:45
  I think there's some of it. Went over my head a few times
• 5:48
  when I was surveying some of your books, but how does I?
• 5:52
  I didn't get to ask you this last time, but I had people
• 5:55
  asking in the comments and people asking me to ask you how
• 5:59
  does a a priest acquire so much, not just education, but focus so
• 6:07
  much on teaching. I mean, you've written 18 books.
• 6:11
  You've written, you have all this.
• 6:12
  You know, you mentioned the curriculum, the Magis Center.
• 6:16
  What is that? What is that?
• 6:18
  How does that work? Well, you know, the Jesuits have
• 6:21
  a a little word which are institutes named after called
• 6:25
  Majas and it means that even more.
• 6:29
  And so when Ignatius got going, he said there are three
• 6:33
  questions that every Jesuit ought to concern himself with
• 6:37
  #1. What is the greatest universal
• 6:40
  need for the Kingdom of God? Well, faith in science is one
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  such need. The second question he had was,
• 6:48
  is anybody else doing it? Well, in the church, and there
• 6:53
  are some people doing it, but we desperately need a whole lot
• 6:58
  more. And because it is the number one
• 7:02
  reason why our kids are dropping out at almost 50% are dropping
• 7:09
  out of the Catholic Church simply because they think that
• 7:13
  faith and science contradict or that there's no evidence for God
• 7:18
  whatsoever from a scientific perspective.
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  So I thought, wow, greatest universal.
• 7:23
  Need no problem. That's the faith and science
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  question #2. You know and you know, is
• 7:32
  anybody else doing it? Very, very little at the time
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  when I started getting into it as a graduate student for my PhD
• 7:41
  in philosophy of science and metaphysics.
• 7:44
  So then the third question is, is, well, can you do something
• 7:48
  about it? Can you do something more that's
• 7:51
  not being done? And my answer was so
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  resoundingly yes. You know, once I finished my my
• 7:59
  term, I spent 11 years as president of Gonzaga.
• 8:03
  Once I was done with it, I basically told my friend Tim
• 8:08
  Bush, I'm coming down in your direction and my objective is to
• 8:16
  to to start this institute dedicated to faith in science.
• 8:19
  And faith and reason in general. Contemporary arguments and
• 8:24
  things for God and Jesus. So I decided to come down here
• 8:30
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• 9:48
  OK, so I look at look we're we're talking about.
• 9:53
  We're going to, we're going to talk about the resurrection.
• 9:56
  And when I was discerning or determining if I had any sort of
• 10:01
  religious identity as a young, not rebellious but certainly
• 10:07
  exploring teenager, I was raised in an evangelical home.
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  But I decided, OK, I don't know what I believe.
• 10:13
  There are some things that kind of questions or challenged my
• 10:16
  parents. I guess you could say faith to
• 10:18
  me. And so I was trying to discover,
• 10:19
  what do I believe? Started surveying religion,
• 10:22
  started to try to understand history, tried to understand
• 10:24
  what is being taught, why, why this, why that.
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  And came back to the person of Jesus Christ as certainly the
• 10:31
  most consequential figure in human history and the most
• 10:35
  evidenced, you could argue, figure in human history.
• 10:40
  So I want to start with that. The case for not just Jesus
• 10:43
  Christ As a historical figure, That's easy.
• 10:45
  That's an easy one. But the case for Jesus Christ as
• 10:49
  yes, the resurrected Son of God. Yes, there's three ways we can
• 10:54
  approach it. The 1st way is what I might call
• 10:59
  the the more traditional arguments.
• 11:02
  That's like taking Saint Paul's argument in one Corinthians 15
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  where he sets up basically a dialectic, a dilemma of sorts,
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  and he says, look, I'm going to tell you right now the
• 11:18
  resurrection's the central doctrine.
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  If Jesus is not risen from the dead, then our preaching is in
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  vain, your faith is worthless, and all those who have died in
• 11:27
  Christ have died in their sins. And what's more?
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  We emerge as perjures before God and the worst of all men.
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  So, you know, he's saying the consequences are horrible, but
• 11:41
  let's dissect that for just a moment.
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  And Paul, you know, Saint Paul, very good legal arguments.
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  So he basically says, let's suppose for a moment that I'm
• 11:53
  really not a religious person. I'm lying about God.
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  I'm lying about the resurrection of Jesus only because I want
• 12:04
  like personal prestige for myself.
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  So he says, let's suppose I I really don't believe in God, you
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  know? He says.
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  Well then why would I be doing this?
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  Because by lying about the resurrection and lying about the
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  true identity of Jesus as the Son of God, I'm.
• 12:22
  Being persecuted. Day in and day out, Why am I
• 12:27
  being thrown out of this town? Why am I being thrown into the
• 12:30
  Colosseum and tortured? Why am I fighting the visa?
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  Why is all this happening to me? I may as well.
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  If I don't believe in the resurrection, if the
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  resurrection is a big lie and I've been lying about it, why
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  don't I just eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow I'm going to
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  die? Why would I endure this
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  persecution? That doesn't make any sense at
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  all. So let's suppose that I do
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  believe in God and I'm lying about the resurrection.
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  Paul's already got the answer to it.
• 13:02
  He says. Well, if I did believe in God
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  and I'm lying about the resurrection, then I'm a
• 13:07
  perjurer before God and not just me, but all these other
• 13:12
  witnesses. And he gives this big list of
• 13:14
  witnesses, right? First he appears to Peter, then
• 13:17
  to the 12, then to 500 of the Brethren, all at once, most of
• 13:21
  whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.
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  Then he appeared to James, and then he appeared to all the
• 13:28
  Apostles. These are the Missionary.
• 13:29
  Apostles in the Jerusalem area. And finally he appears to me as
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  one born out of due course. Now, why would all those people
• 13:39
  who obviously believe in God be lying about the resurrection?
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  Because if they're perjures before God and they're leading,
• 13:47
  their lie is leading people away from the people of God and
• 13:52
  Judaism and leading them to this new group called Christianity on
• 13:57
  the basis of a lie. If you really believed in God,
• 14:01
  hey, I mean you are the worst of all people.
• 14:06
  As Paul says, not only the worst of all people, but you deserve
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  to be punished as someone who undermined the authentic Kingdom
• 14:15
  of God with your lie. And Paul says, why would I want
• 14:20
  to do that? Why would any of these other
• 14:23
  witnesses want to do that? And when you mentioned these
• 14:27
  witnesses, you mentioned up to 500 witnesses.
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  These are people who witnessed in physical body the
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  resurrection. Yes, absolutely.
• 14:35
  They saw Jesus after he came. He resurrected from the dead.
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  Absolutely. There's not a single exegete
• 14:41
  that I know, outside of a few really radical exegetes, that
• 14:45
  would deny that this is not just some feeling of Jesus or
• 14:50
  something of that nature, a Scalabaxian proposition or
• 14:54
  something they. Really saw him.
• 14:56
  They were gathered together. They're gathered together, very
• 15:00
  probably in Galilee, as a very large group of individuals.
• 15:05
  Some people conflate it. With the Holy Spirit event, but
• 15:08
  it is not the Holy Spirit event. It is a resurrection event of
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  Jesus. Paul intends it in this in this
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  way. And if you know the Greek terms
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  for appearance and saw, there can be no doubt Paul means it in
• 15:24
  the very physiological seeing sense.
• 15:28
  By the way, what would it make any sense at all?
• 15:32
  Honestly, Lila, if you know to say, oh, they didn't physically
• 15:36
  see him, but 500 still got beepers, so God had to give 500
• 15:40
  different rays to each individual. 500 different
• 15:44
  subjective like appearances. I mean, of course the only way
• 15:49
  of objectively seeing something together is to see it physically
• 15:54
  through your eyes and experience it as a group.
• 15:57
  End of story. Paul couldn't admit anything
• 16:00
  else other than that, and that's why you have such a large group
• 16:05
  to begin with. You know, the starter group, as
• 16:08
  it were, for the apostles, the the, the Jerusalem church and
• 16:14
  the Galilean church, did not grow simply on the words of the
• 16:18
  apostles. 12 people saw them and so forth.
• 16:21
  Yes, 12 people saw Jesus first, but those apostles.
• 16:26
  But then what do they do? They go out and gather a bunch
• 16:29
  of people. And when they're gathering a
• 16:31
  bunch of people and they're all there together, maybe in
• 16:35
  Galilee. That's what a lot of exegetes
• 16:37
  think. Then, of course, Christ appears
• 16:41
  and he appears transformed. He appears looking like God.
• 16:44
  He appears so much that when Matthew describes that the scene
• 16:49
  in his gospel on a hilltop in Galilee, he says, And when Jesus
• 16:55
  appeared, they all bowed down and worshipped all of them.
• 17:02
  Now, he doesn't say the number like Paul does, but of course
• 17:06
  the implication is the first thing they see is something that
• 17:11
  makes them worship. And then now let's go back to
• 17:14
  Matthew's Gospel. When does Matthew talk about
• 17:17
  worship? Right at the beginning of his
• 17:19
  gospel. So he's doing, you know, almost
• 17:21
  like a closure statement, right at the temptations of Jesus.
• 17:26
  The devil comes and says worship me and I'll give you all of
• 17:31
  this. And then of course Jesus
• 17:34
  responds, No, you shall worship the Lord your God alone.
• 17:40
  Him alone shall you serve. Now he alone shall you serve.
• 17:45
  Now you look at that him alone shall you serve.
• 17:49
  The idea of of the using worship in that context and then turning
• 17:54
  around. And then your last statement in
• 17:56
  the gospel, you say they all bow down in worship.
• 17:59
  They thought they were seeing God.
• 18:01
  And by the way, that's verifiable through John's Gospel
• 18:05
  and Luke's gospel. And I can explain that if you
• 18:06
  want in a second. But the main point I'm getting
• 18:09
  is these 500, they're seeing this transform Jesus, then it,
• 18:15
  you know, there's always this thing though some doubted, says
• 18:19
  Matthew. Well they couldn't be doubting
• 18:22
  something very powerful and God like is appearing.
• 18:26
  If they're all collectively worshipping him, what are they
• 18:29
  doubting? Is is that divine appearance
• 18:33
  that theophany? Is that Jesus?
• 18:35
  And of course the next thing you see is that Jesus is basically
• 18:41
  revealing himself to them. Now, in Luke's Gospel and John's
• 18:44
  Gospel, it's by the wounds of the crucifixion.
• 18:47
  However, in Matthew's Gospel, not so.
• 18:51
  In Matthew's Gospel it is the mission.
• 18:54
  So Jesus then gives them the the Great Commission.
• 18:58
  As you know, He says full power and authority.
• 19:01
  There you go again, a divine analogy.
• 19:05
  Full power and authority in heaven and earth has been given
• 19:10
  over to me. So if you didn't get the worship
• 19:13
  analogy, Matthew's drawing the line underneath the second
• 19:19
  reference. Full power and.
• 19:20
  Authority has been given over to me.
• 19:21
  So they're witnessing somebody who has full power and
• 19:24
  authority, God and God alone. So he's appearing like God.
• 19:29
  Then he says go there for and that, you know, teach them
• 19:33
  everything. Who I told you?
• 19:37
  Who did that? Jesus all of a sudden.
• 19:41
  So now they know through the commissioning itself.
• 19:44
  And then, you know, baptize them and, you know, know that I will
• 19:50
  be with you always until the end of the age.
• 19:53
  OK. So the idea, though, is clearly
• 19:57
  Jesus not only appears, he appears with a kind of, you
• 20:02
  know, looking like a theophany, a divine apparition.
• 20:07
  But of course he's continuous with his body.
• 20:10
  Of course, he's still got the wounds.
• 20:13
  Of crucifixion in that continuous body which comes out
• 20:17
  much more clearly in in Luke and in John.
• 20:20
  But nevertheless, by the time you're done, I think Matthew
• 20:26
  describes the 500 pretty much, you know and one fell swoop and
• 20:32
  what happened and. It seems to me that that's a
• 20:36
  very plausible on the mountain in Galilee.
• 20:38
  So you're speaking to witness accounts, basically witness
• 20:42
  accounts that are documented by multiple gospel writers.
• 20:45
  And then there's other documentation beyond the
• 20:47
  gospels, you know, behind the beyond the Bible for the
• 20:50
  historicity of Christ pre pre resurrection, the crucifixion of
• 20:56
  Christ actually being crucified, and then appearances of Jesus
• 20:59
  Christ post resurrection. So you have all of that.
• 21:03
  Now there's some people who will say okay, witnesses,
• 21:06
  Schmidtnesses, you know, I don't buy it.
• 21:09
  You know, give me something more.
• 21:11
  Give me something more. For how we know that Jesus
• 21:13
  Christ of. Yeah, sure he existed.
• 21:16
  Yeah, OK, I'll give you that historically.
• 21:17
  But that he resurrected from. The OK, the second approach is
• 21:21
  what I call the NT Wright approach.
• 21:23
  NT Wright, as you may know, is a historical exegete.
• 21:27
  Very brilliant man. Also a Bishop in the Anglican
• 21:30
  Church but a first class historical exegete, Wright wrote
• 21:35
  two books called Jesus and the Victory of God as well as The
• 21:39
  Resurrection of the Son of God. I'm just going to give you very
• 21:43
  briefly two of his arguments and then you know it's a second
• 21:46
  approach, very persuasive to a a lot of intellectuals and brought
• 21:53
  around a lot of former atheists as well.
• 21:55
  But the first approach that Wright has is.
• 22:00
  What we would call today historical anomaly.
• 22:06
  So in other words, you look at what Wright did was he looked at
• 22:10
  all the messianic movements that took place about 100 years
• 22:15
  before Jesus and 100 years after Jesus.
• 22:19
  There's one basic commonality between all of them except for
• 22:24
  Christianity. The commonality is for all the
• 22:28
  other messianic movements. 50 years after that Messiah has
• 22:33
  been persecuted, what happens? The messianic movement,
• 22:37
  including the movement of the of the Baptist dies out.
• 22:43
  It's gonzo 50 years, no more. Now you get to Jesus.
• 22:51
  What happens with Jesus? It's totally different.
• 22:56
  It's just like the Jesus the the Jesus movement, right that you
• 23:02
  know Jesus has risen. Jesus as Lord grows
• 23:07
  exponentially in the face of the humiliating death of its
• 23:13
  Messiah. We know this as a fact because
• 23:18
  in 200 years the Roman Empire, which was persecuting this
• 23:25
  little teeny Christian Church, is suddenly taken over by the
• 23:31
  church it was persecuting. And you look at that, and that's
• 23:36
  got to require an exponential increase.
• 23:38
  So is there. Any other religion, father, that
• 23:41
  this, this has existed where there's a persecuted, destroyed
• 23:46
  remnant, including the Savior or the God himself, And then out of
• 23:50
  that all of a sudden they take over.
• 23:52
  Not by the sword, mind you, but by true conversion and
• 23:56
  suffering. That is true.
• 23:58
  I mean 200 years, 240 years of persecution later and all of a
• 24:03
  sudden whammo edict of the land, You look at this and it's the
• 24:09
  most extraordinary thing, but. All the while, the Church is
• 24:13
  being persecuted. It's exponentially growing.
• 24:16
  And to be sure that the Edict of Milan not sorry to interrupt
• 24:19
  here but just for people listening, the Edict of Milan
• 24:21
  was not convert or thou shalt die.
• 24:24
  Yeah, yeah. This wasn't some sort of Islamic
• 24:26
  rule of saying we're, you know, you you must convert or die.
• 24:30
  It was merely saying we are now authorizing this religion.
• 24:34
  That's. Right, An edict of toleration.
• 24:37
  And then of course, right after the Edict of Toleration,
• 24:40
  Christianity was so powerful, it just became the religion of the
• 24:45
  Roman Empire. And so you you look at it and
• 24:48
  it's very peaceable, no violence, that in fact the
• 24:53
  violence is suffered by the Christians, not vice versa.
• 24:56
  That's a huge difference. The second thing that's really,
• 24:59
  really important here is that I mean, John P Meyer, another
• 25:04
  really a Catholic, excellent historical exegete.
• 25:07
  They all ask the same question. The the foremost historical
• 25:12
  exegetes in the Catholic Church. And you, you ask what's the
• 25:15
  question? Well, why?
• 25:17
  Why? I mean, how can you explain this
• 25:19
  every other, you know, a messianic movement died in 50
• 25:24
  years. I mean, just dead O dead array.
• 25:26
  And here we are, you know, 240 years later, being actively
• 25:30
  persecuted the entire time. And of course the the entire
• 25:34
  Roman Empire becomes a Christian.
• 25:36
  There's got to be some reason #1 resurrection.
• 25:40
  The first thing is they are not a discouraged group of people.
• 25:44
  They're not a group of people going well.
• 25:46
  I guess he was the one right like at Emma House where they're
• 25:50
  walking, you know, together Cleopas and the other stranger.
• 25:54
  We thought he was the one we were hoping.
• 25:57
  But that's not the rhetoric. The rhetoric is he's risen as he
• 26:00
  promised and he is a beard assignment.
• 26:03
  The second thing is, those apostles are preaching, right?
• 26:09
  Jesus Christ risen from the dead.
• 26:12
  And what's going on while they're preaching, they are
• 26:16
  performing miracles day in and day out by the Holy Spirit in
• 26:23
  the name of Jesus. Now wait a minute.
• 26:27
  People are going to think to themselves, if we're lying about
• 26:31
  the resurrection, if we're lying about the Lordship of Jesus, if
• 26:36
  we're lying about Jesus's Life and Times, if we're basically
• 26:41
  lying about all of this. Would you mind telling me why
• 26:44
  God His Father would perform a whole set of miracles, raisings
• 26:50
  of the dead, healing the blind, etcetera, day after day through
• 26:54
  the hands of these liars who are literally healing through in the
• 27:00
  name of the person they're lying about?
• 27:02
  That is so. That's like accusing Jesus of
• 27:06
  casting out demons by the power of the eligible.
• 27:09
  It's laughably, intrinsically contradictory.
• 27:13
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• 27:15
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  That's nimi skincare.com and you can use the code Lila at check
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  out for 15% off your order. When you speak of these miracles
• 28:08
  after the resurrection performed by the followers of Jesus Christ
• 28:14
  as part of his command to them to go out and make disciples,
• 28:17
  and then in that process they're doing these miracles in His name
• 28:20
  that are helping people come to belief.
• 28:23
  You know that. I mean, it's a beautiful thing.
• 28:25
  Is there evidence of those miracles?
• 28:29
  How do we know that those really happened?
• 28:31
  Because we it's not just because of the testimony in the
• 28:34
  scriptures right from the Acts of the Apostles, etcetera, or
• 28:38
  from Paul's words himself. When I came to you guys you were
• 28:42
  a bunch of nothings. But now I came to you in power.
• 28:46
  I didn't come to you giving you fancy dancy words.
• 28:50
  I came to you in power. I came to you in spirit.
• 28:53
  In other words, I came to you in miracles and signs that you know
• 28:58
  mighty deeds, which is another word for miracles, etcetera,
• 29:01
  etcetera. That's the first thing.
• 29:03
  But that's just internal evidence.
• 29:04
  It's you see what Meyer and the whole we have a movement called
• 29:09
  a Third Quest for the Historical Jesus.
• 29:11
  And of course Wright is a part of it, Meyer's a part of it.
• 29:15
  Richard Bogum is a part of it all.
• 29:16
  These guys are really important historical exegetes at all.
• 29:20
  The best University of Harvard, Cambridge, etcetera.
• 29:23
  They're all there, and all of them have one thing in common.
• 29:27
  You could never explain the exponential growth of
• 29:32
  Christianity. You could never explain that
• 29:36
  without some sort of transcendent proof slash action,
• 29:42
  because there's just no way, first of all, humiliating death
• 29:46
  of the Messiah. All other mesogenic groups wipe
• 29:50
  out #3 active persecution for 240 years, and the Church is
• 29:56
  exponentially not just growing arithmetically, but growing
• 29:59
  exponentially. Was being actively persecuted.
• 30:02
  There's got to be something more, says Meyer.
• 30:06
  And and Wright and and and you know, the Bakum.
• 30:10
  There has to be something which is causing these people to go.
• 30:15
  I'm going to endure persecution. He really is risen as he
• 30:18
  promised. I don't think they're lying at
• 30:20
  all, because I don't think God would be performing miracles in
• 30:23
  the name of Jesus when they're lying about Jesus through their
• 30:27
  hands. I don't think so.
• 30:29
  So that's kind of they're looking at it going backwards,
• 30:33
  right? Implicitly, there has to be
• 30:36
  something to explain such an A grandiose historical anomaly,
• 30:42
  right? There's just got to be
• 30:44
  something. And so that's the something is
• 30:47
  the miracles and the fact of the resurrection.
• 30:51
  So that's one of Wright's approaches.
• 30:54
  But Wright has a second approach and a masterful work called The
• 30:59
  Resurrection of the Son of God, this excellent book.
• 31:02
  People have the patient. Unfortunately, Wright tends to
• 31:05
  write books that are worse than mine, over 800 pages.
• 31:10
  And I mean, if you think I have footnotes, oh, I mean this is
• 31:15
  like. Is there a good a good Cliff
• 31:16
  notes version of that of that? Guy.
• 31:18
  Well, yeah, I wrote a Cliff Notes version of it.
• 31:21
  Yeah, and yours is only. 500 pages.
• 31:24
  No, no, no. My Cliff Notes version is just
• 31:26
  30. I wrote it in a book called Gods
• 31:28
  That Love the World. And is that at Maja center dot?
• 31:30
  Comcenter.com. OK, there you go guys.
• 31:33
  So anyway, I gave the Cliff notes version.
• 31:36
  It's kind of little. It's heavy duty Cliff notes.
• 31:38
  It's got some footnotes, but nevertheless, you know, getting
• 31:42
  back to the the fact of the matter, he says, look, he says,
• 31:46
  if you look at the Christian Church, originally, the
• 31:49
  Christian Church wanted to stay really, really close to what's
• 31:53
  called Second Temple Judaism. Second Temple Judaism is an
• 31:57
  implicit set of doctrines that kind of got worked out during
• 32:02
  the time of the Second Temple, So right after the exile.
• 32:07
  So, you know, we're talking about, you know, around, you
• 32:11
  know, the five 90s or so and going all the way until 70 AD,
• 32:17
  which is basically the destruction of the Second
• 32:20
  Temple. During that time, there are all
• 32:23
  kinds of Jewish doctrines that were worked out and it it was
• 32:27
  kind of a an implicit set of doctrines.
• 32:30
  It's not like formalized with like we do in the Catholic
• 32:33
  Church, but it's out there. And the Christian Church in its
• 32:36
  initial moments, always thought Jesus wanted to remain
• 32:41
  doctrinally close to the Jewish religion, except for where Jesus
• 32:47
  explicitly disagreed or showed things to be different.
• 32:53
  Well, there's not many of those things, but one of them is the
• 32:58
  resurrection. See, in the Jewish church, I
• 33:02
  mean, at the time, the resurrection was considered a
• 33:05
  very just refer to it as a synagogue.
• 33:10
  Resurrection was a very peripheral doctrine, right?
• 33:13
  So there are many doctrines. This is kind of out in the
• 33:16
  periphery. It wasn't necessary for the for
• 33:19
  the Messiah of the Jews to be resurrected.
• 33:22
  From the dead and. He might not even be killed.
• 33:25
  Yeah, and not only that your resurrection was kind of like on
• 33:29
  the periphery, but notice what happens when Christianity comes
• 33:34
  along. They put it smack dab in the
• 33:37
  center, where Paul says, you know, if Jesus is not risen from
• 33:42
  the dead and your faith is in vain, our preaching is
• 33:45
  worthless. And all those who have died in
• 33:48
  their have died in Christ, have died in their sins.
• 33:51
  And what's worse, we emerge as perjures before God.
• 33:54
  We're the most pitiable of all men.
• 33:57
  That puts a smack dab in the center, I'd say, and the most
• 34:00
  foundational doctrine that there is upon which the entirety of
• 34:07
  the Apostolic preaching hangs. So when you get to that point,
• 34:13
  you have to ask yourself, why did the Christians do it?
• 34:19
  Because the Christians saw the risen Jesus, and they knew right
• 34:26
  then and there everything he said was true.
• 34:30
  They saw the risen Jesus and they knew right then and there
• 34:35
  he's not just a risen, resuscitated body.
• 34:39
  He is the risen Lord, as Steen Hakurias.
• 34:44
  He is the Lord. The Lord is the Greek.
• 34:47
  How could he has the Greek translation for the Hebrew
• 34:50
  divine name Yahweh Adonai? So that that's the first thing.
• 34:55
  But more than that, there are all kinds of other departures in
• 34:59
  the resurrection area from what the Jewish synagogue had
• 35:04
  thought. For example, in the synagogue
• 35:07
  they thought that, you know, the Pharisees of course, believed in
• 35:10
  the resurrection, but the Sadducees did not.
• 35:13
  But the Pharisees who believed that the resurrection would just
• 35:17
  be like a resuscitated physical body, like a resuscitated
• 35:20
  corpse. We'd all come back and we'd have
• 35:23
  a really long lasting physical body.
• 35:27
  Saint Paul and all the other apostles insist otherwise.
• 35:31
  They say no, no, it will be a pneumatic consoma, a spiritual
• 35:37
  body. And Paul insists, is that going
• 35:40
  to be something physical? You, you know, you you raised
• 35:43
  in, you know, material. You're going to be, I'm sorry,
• 35:48
  you were dyed material. You're going to be raised,
• 35:52
  immaterial and spiritual. You know you were, you died, you
• 35:57
  know, powerless. You're going to be raised in
• 35:59
  power and you're going to be raised in glory.
• 36:02
  He's referring to something Paul says later, 1 Corinthians 50.
• 36:06
  We're going to be like him as he is.
• 36:09
  So the idea that's going on there says, says right, The
• 36:13
  thing you can't miss is that the spiritual?
• 36:17
  I mean that the Christians thought it was not just going to
• 36:20
  be raised as a spiritual body but also a powerful and glorious
• 36:23
  transform body just like that of Jesus.
• 36:30
  And the right as the question, hey, if the Christian Church
• 36:33
  want to remain so close to 2nd Temple Judaism, why did it pick
• 36:37
  that to disagree with? What was it about Jesus's
• 36:42
  preaching or Jesus's actions post resurrection that led them
• 36:47
  to say no, their doctrine is wrong.
• 36:50
  Our doctrine is right that they departed from the second devil
• 36:55
  of Judaism, which they did not want to depart from.
• 36:58
  Then he goes on. He says there's a third thing.
• 37:00
  You know the whole idea that the Parozia is imminent, right?
• 37:06
  So that in other words, the Parozia has been initiated.
• 37:11
  Oh, the end of the world. The end times, you know, are
• 37:15
  upon us that is to say, yeah, the end of the world, let's put
• 37:19
  it that way. And so all of a sudden you see
• 37:22
  this in every Christian sector the Parousia has already been
• 37:26
  initiated. Whatever gave them that idea
• 37:30
  when it was thought that the Parousia is not going to happen
• 37:33
  till far-flung future. Where did they get that from?
• 37:38
  They saw the risen Jesus and they believed by the Messianic
• 37:43
  prophecies that of course the end time was initiated, the
• 37:47
  Parazia was initiated. That's why they departed from
• 37:51
  Second Temple Judaism. But you can go right down the
• 37:54
  line and right list about seven of these areas where the
• 37:58
  Christian Church departs from the view of the resurrection of
• 38:02
  the Jewish synagogue and and re reshapes it completely, you
• 38:08
  know, for no apparent reason other than they saw the risen
• 38:12
  Christ in glory just the way he's described in the Gospels.
• 38:18
  So that's the second major method is the 2 right approaches
• 38:22
  that what we call the Christian mutations of Second Temple
• 38:26
  Judaism. And it's specifically with
• 38:29
  respect to the Messiah and to the resurrection, but also the
• 38:33
  exponential growth of Christian Messianism in the face of 240
• 38:38
  years of persecution. There's got to be some
• 38:41
  explanation for an anomaly of that huge grandiosa scope.
• 38:48
  So that's the second method. The the third method is on the
• 38:52
  Shroud of Tehran. There is truly scientifically
• 38:57
  accessible evidence. For the resurrection as well.
• 39:01
  They're scientifically accessible evidence for the
• 39:04
  resurrection of Jesus Christ. Yeah.
• 39:05
  On the Shroud of Turin, yes, there is what?
• 39:07
  What is that? Well, OK, first of all, maybe
• 39:11
  for your listeners, the Shroud of Turin is a relic of that of
• 39:19
  of the supposed burial cloth of Jesus.
• 39:23
  It came under scientific scrutiny about 150 years ago and
• 39:28
  so couldn't appear started taking the first photograph.
• 39:31
  So this is a physical cloth, yes, that exists today.
• 39:35
  And you say it's a relic. There's evidence or some sort of
• 39:40
  documentation that would suggest, or maybe show clearly
• 39:44
  that this is actually the burial cloth used on Jesus Christ 2000
• 39:49
  years ago. Yep.
• 39:50
  I mean, how do we know that? Well, I'm going to give a little
• 39:54
  talk here. It may take about just 10
• 39:57
  minutes just to listen because it's for one, the Shroud of
• 40:01
  Turin is the most unique image that has ever been produced in
• 40:05
  history, and I'll talk about that in a moment.
• 40:07
  And secondly, it's by far the most scientifically tested
• 40:11
  historical artifact in history. So we have to look at, well, why
• 40:16
  did that happen? The first thing is that it's,
• 40:20
  let's face it, the image is a complete quandary.
• 40:24
  It is a. Perfect 3 dimensional, 3
• 40:29
  dimensional. I'll talk about that in a
• 40:30
  moment. A photographic negative image
• 40:33
  that's emblazoned on a non photographically sensitive linen
• 40:37
  cloth, Nothing like it in the history of humankind.
• 40:42
  And we'll talk about the sources of that imagery in just a
• 40:44
  moment. The second thing that's very
• 40:46
  interesting about the shroud is not just the the production of
• 40:51
  the image itself, but it's also the fact that there's 370.
• 40:55
  Two blood stains. On that shroud, they are all
• 40:58
  authentic blood. Everybody who tries to tell you
• 41:01
  it's paint or dyes or rubs or something else, it's just dead
• 41:05
  wrong. I mean, let's face it, paint and
• 41:07
  dyes and rubs don't have AB blood type, they don't have
• 41:11
  human immunoglobulins, they don't have human hemoglobin,
• 41:14
  they don't have human bilirubin, they don't have another thirty
• 41:19
  other constituents of human blood embedded in the paints.
• 41:22
  And the dyes, I mean, it's blood.
• 41:25
  I mean it. And that's been scientifically
• 41:27
  tested. It's scientifically validated
• 41:29
  again and again and again. It's real.
• 41:31
  Blood on that piece of linen cloth.
• 41:33
  Yes, 8 consecutive excellent studies by 8.
• 41:38
  And it's the same blood from the same person.
• 41:39
  Yes, it is the same blood from the same person, And not only
• 41:44
  that, that blood. When you see it in
• 41:47
  correspondence with the image on the shroud, it manifests truly
• 41:53
  the unique crucifixion of Jesus like nothing you have ever seen,
• 41:59
  even in ways completely unpredictable to a forger.
• 42:02
  And I'll get back to that in just a moment.
• 42:05
  But for the moment, let's just say those 372 blood stains
• 42:11
  really verify that the, the the crucifixion G is so unique and
• 42:16
  this definitely was the crucifixion of a man that was
• 42:21
  identical to that described in the gospel narratives.
• 42:25
  I'll explain that in just one minute as well.
• 42:28
  There's a third thing that's very important and that's the
• 42:31
  dating. Tests that have been performed,
• 42:34
  Needless to say, when you have an artifact like this.
• 42:37
  You absolutely want the dating evidence to be, you know,
• 42:42
  completely solid. Well, in 1988, a carbon dating
• 42:46
  was done that basically dated the shroud to about 700 years
• 42:52
  ago between 12:50 to 1350 AD. Well, that would put it way out
• 42:58
  of the range of the 1st century. So a lot of people thought,
• 43:02
  well, Gee, you know, this is automatically debunked.
• 43:06
  And everybody was just, let's call it a day.
• 43:09
  It was debunked. But then in 1998 they took this
• 43:15
  the. The piece of the shroud that was
• 43:19
  removed from the cot for the sample right They took it from a
• 43:22
  very controversial site right in a corner that was burned during
• 43:27
  the fire of Chambray. In the 1500s and when it was
• 43:31
  burned, basically, the sisters in 1500 took cotton fibers and
• 43:42
  interwove it in a process called invisible.
• 43:46
  Mending and wove it into the shroud to patch up the holes
• 43:50
  from the fire. Now that automatically means
• 43:54
  that there's going to be variability and heterogeneity in
• 43:58
  any kind of carbon sample. So anyway, Doctor Ray Rogers A.
• 44:01
  Very prestigious Thermo chemist here at Los Alamos Labs.
• 44:07
  He's now deceased, but at the time in 1998, ten years after
• 44:13
  the 1988 carbon dating, he said this this sample can't possibly
• 44:17
  be right. So they carbon dated the sample
• 44:20
  that had been kind of manipulated by these nuns after
• 44:23
  the fire. That's where they took, and then
• 44:26
  he verified it. So Roger said I'm getting some
• 44:30
  sticky tapes from that exact area from the 1970 sterp
• 44:35
  investigation. I'm taking some sticky tapes
• 44:38
  from those areas and I'm going to do chemical pyrolysis, I'm
• 44:42
  going to do mass spectrometry, I'm going to do a bunch of other
• 44:46
  what we call thermal chemical test.
• 44:48
  Then he comes out in 1998 in the Anelecta thermal Chemica, which
• 44:55
  a very prestigious Thermo chemical journey, which he was
• 44:57
  the editor of by the way, for many years he had been the
• 45:00
  editor. He press, he puts it in there
• 45:03
  and he basically says, look, he says there's no way in which the
• 45:08
  sample that was taken could have come from the original shroud.
• 45:13
  I mean how can you have cotton fibers and I mean the shroud's
• 45:17
  made of linen. There's no relation chemically
• 45:20
  to to cotton and cotton fibers no less, that are dyed with a
• 45:25
  gum dye Morden that was only available in the Middle Ages in
• 45:29
  the 12th century or later. So how you going to explain
• 45:33
  that? Why did they do that, Father
• 45:35
  Spitzer? Why did they take a little piece
• 45:36
  off the edge as the sample? Is that because to protect the
• 45:40
  integrity of the larger? That ostensibly was the reason,
• 45:44
  but maybe there are other reasons, and I don't want to say
• 45:49
  there were people trying to. Do discrediting actions.
• 45:55
  But I'll just simply say, man, it's hard for me to believe that
• 45:59
  that was an unbiased sample because the.
• 46:02
  Protocols originally called for in 1978 required that a sample
• 46:08
  be taken from 7 spots to take it from only one very controversial
• 46:13
  spot that was burned and remanded, and then split that
• 46:17
  sample into three parts and give it to three labs.
• 46:21
  It's very, very suspicious, I must tell you this.
• 46:25
  And so I'm just not going to say they were there.
• 46:28
  I'll go with your ostensible you know they wanted to take it from
• 46:32
  some place that would not. So when the new guy is doing the
• 46:35
  new tests that are the best in class tests for carbon dating,
• 46:39
  are they doing carbon dating now on the whole?
• 46:41
  No, they're not going to do it. And I'm going to give you the
• 46:43
  reason for that and just one minute.
• 46:45
  But we there were four other tests that immediately showed
• 46:49
  that the carbon tests were wrong.
• 46:52
  And I'll I'll tell you why in just a moment that you can't use
• 46:55
  carbon. Dating in the future because
• 46:58
  essentially the particle radiation hypothesis shows that
• 47:02
  it. What happens is if you've got a
• 47:04
  neutron flux, and I haven't explained any of this yet, but
• 47:07
  when you have a neutron flux, what winds up happening is the
• 47:10
  neutrons will irradiate. What's called the N 14, N 14 is
• 47:15
  an ingredient in cellulose, which is an ingredient in linen.
• 47:18
  And so you get an irradiated N 14.
• 47:21
  It turns into C-14. Well, C-14 is precisely the kind
• 47:25
  of carbon that's measured in AC14 dating test.
• 47:29
  So when Doctor Allen Arthur Lind in this country discovered this,
• 47:33
  he said, look, you cannot use a carbon dating.
• 47:36
  There's, you know, if there really was a neutron flux which
• 47:39
  produced this thing, a flow of neutrons that left the body, and
• 47:43
  I'll explain in a moment, then there's just no way you could be
• 47:47
  testing for C-14 'cause there's too much N 14 in the linen that
• 47:52
  could get, you know, turned into C-14.
• 47:55
  But four other tests were developed in the meantime.
• 47:58
  The first was a Fourier transformed infrared
• 48:01
  spectroscopy, the second one was a ramen laser spectroscopy and
• 48:07
  the next one was a mechanical compressibility and tension
• 48:10
  test. Now these were done by Julio
• 48:13
  Fonte and his team at the Italian National Labs and
• 48:17
  they're very reputable, good people.
• 48:21
  They basically showed conclusively that the cloth on
• 48:27
  the basis of these three tests, which you know are really not
• 48:31
  affected by a fire like a chambrie or getting burned and
• 48:36
  having heterogeneous material, you know, and so so it's not
• 48:40
  affected by carbon. So they put these three tests
• 48:43
  together and came up with an age of 90 AD ±200 years with a 95%
• 48:50
  confidence level. Then came Doctor Liberato Nikado
• 48:54
  and his huge team again another team at Italian National Labs
• 49:01
  and they put together a new kind of testing, very accurate
• 49:06
  refined testing, peer reviewed over three years called Wide
• 49:10
  angle X-ray Scattering test. Now after the peer review
• 49:15
  testing and the acceptance of the test is valid then they took
• 49:21
  a a sample from the shroud and dated of the shroud to between
• 49:26
  54AD to 75AD show like mid 1st century hello within spitting
• 49:36
  distance of Jesus with a very small error you know margin of
• 49:41
  error and a very high get 95% level confidence level.
• 49:46
  And Father Spitzer, I know, forgive me to interrupt here,
• 49:49
  but there's so many questions that are already firing off.
• 49:52
  I know you're going to be answering some of them already,
• 49:54
  but we know because of the linen and because of the crucifixion,
• 49:58
  and you're going to get into the details of the kind of
• 50:00
  crucifixion it was that's represented on the cloth.
• 50:02
  But that this is from the area largely of where we know Jesus
• 50:07
  is Christ's crucifixion to have taken place from the Roman
• 50:11
  Empire, and that particular part of the Roman Empire where the
• 50:14
  crucifixion was because of the kind of linen it was.
• 50:16
  I'm asking as as a question here.
• 50:19
  Yes, well, that's part of the reason.
• 50:21
  But the real clue is the Pollen Greens.
• 50:25
  That are embedded in the shroud. So there's a whole science
• 50:29
  around pollen grains and so that can there's very specific
• 50:36
  regions in which. Pollen can kind of breed and
• 50:41
  they're what we call indigenous pollens and then we call it
• 50:44
  unique pollens. And then there are more
• 50:46
  universal pollens. Well, if you look at the pollen
• 50:50
  grains embedded in the shroud, by far 2/3 of the pollens
• 50:57
  ingrained in the shroud come from the northern Judea and
• 51:03
  Jerusalem areas. So, and not only that, fourteen
• 51:07
  of them are indigenous to that region, and five of them are
• 51:13
  unique to that region, never found anywhere beyond northern
• 51:19
  Judea. Now there's only one way to
• 51:23
  explain that, and that is that cloth had to be in that area for
• 51:30
  at least 300 years in the open air.
• 51:36
  That's how you're going to get that abundance of pollen grains
• 51:40
  there. No medieval forger could have
• 51:42
  produced this without taking back the the, you know, the the
• 51:48
  shroud into Jerusalem and leaving it around for a few 100
• 51:52
  years to get these pollen grains embedded.
• 51:56
  So there cannot be any doubt that the origin place, the
• 52:02
  longest place of exposure to the open air, has to be Jerusalem,
• 52:08
  northern Judea. That's the first thing.
• 52:12
  Then we find the next largest group is Edessa Turkey.
• 52:17
  Oh by the way, Mox Fry was the one who originally did this, the
• 52:21
  great Swiss biologists and criminologists.
• 52:24
  But now that this has been repeated by many, many other
• 52:27
  experts in many other countries and found to be correct that
• 52:31
  what I'm telling you now is pretty much accepted by
• 52:35
  mainstream scientists. So the main thing to remember
• 52:39
  though is second group is it has a Turkey.
• 52:42
  And we know that from other reasons.
• 52:45
  We can talk about later that the shroud was in Odessa.
• 52:48
  It was called the Mendelian there, the face of the face of
• 52:52
  Jesus. But we know it was there.
• 52:54
  We can see it because of the changes in Jesus iconography
• 52:58
  that happened specifically at that spot.
• 53:01
  And we and lo and behold, there it is.
• 53:04
  We can see. So paintings of Jesus, drawings
• 53:08
  of Jesus to worship him by Christians were done differently
• 53:11
  once they were introduced to the Shroud in Odessa.
• 53:14
  And we have this as a part of the historical record.
• 53:16
  So what you're basically describing is there's all these
• 53:19
  clues about this cloth that's clearly from about 2000 years
• 53:23
  ago, and these clues are leading us to a conclusion.
• 53:28
  That's correct. So in the anyway the next one,
• 53:33
  why do so? Few people know about the Shroud
• 53:34
  of Turn. I'm sorry.
• 53:36
  Why do so few people know about the Shroud of?
• 53:38
  Turn. I think it's two reasons really.
• 53:40
  The 1st is so much of the research has been done.
• 53:44
  It is scientific and if unless you're reading science journals
• 53:48
  about this or somebody like me has clued you into this and I've
• 53:52
  got it an entire I'm writing. I have another book coming out
• 53:56
  from Ignatius Press in August called Science at the Doorstep
• 54:00
  to Christ. I have a 50 page chapter in
• 54:04
  there called Science and the Shroud of Turin Science at the
• 54:07
  Doorstep to Jesus. But I'm trying to make it
• 54:11
  available as much as I can. I talk about it as much as I
• 54:14
  can. And now there are a lot of
• 54:17
  people who are really getting out there in the popular press
• 54:20
  trying to do this, but that darn 1988 carbon dating set everybody
• 54:26
  on edge. Meaning at the time there was
• 54:28
  some excitement that oh, this could be the burial cloth of
• 54:31
  Jesus is going to teach us something.
• 54:32
  And then it was discredited because of this one test and
• 54:36
  people have written it off since.
• 54:37
  That is correct. And because it's a total
• 54:41
  tragedy, because it was a Bunco test and now it has been.
• 54:46
  I'm telling you, Tristan Casabianca and his team
• 54:50
  basically begged for what's called the statistical raw data,
• 54:56
  the statistical, the statistically analyzable raw
• 54:59
  data from the Carbon 14 dating process from the three labs.
• 55:07
  Just give us the raw data. Just give us the raw data.
• 55:10
  And from 1988, the British Museum who held on the raw data,
• 55:14
  would not give the raw data to anyone.
• 55:17
  And then finally in 2018, thirty years later, what happens?
• 55:24
  Basically, they appealed on the Freedom of Information Act to
• 55:29
  the British Museum and to say you have no right to withhold
• 55:33
  this data from us. And finally, of course, they
• 55:35
  gave it to Casa Bianca and his team.
• 55:38
  They showed immediately from a cursory statistical announce,
• 55:44
  could not have been doubted, that there was so much
• 55:47
  heterogeneity, stratification, and variegation between the
• 55:52
  different parts of the sample and within each part of the
• 55:55
  sample that it couldn't possibly be dating a single material from
• 56:00
  a single era. There has to be a mix, in other
• 56:04
  words, of ages and a mix of materials that should have been
• 56:08
  very evident from the very beginning.
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• 57:00
  So it sounds like setting aside what you just described about
• 57:04
  why the carb that one carbon test was bunk.
• 57:07
  There have been multiple tests by very prestigious institutions
• 57:10
  and individuals to prove the dating, the placing like
• 57:15
  geographic placement of where this originates, this, this
• 57:18
  material, this linen cloth. I want to hear why we know.
• 57:23
  I mean, yeah, those are clues, but why we know that it is
• 57:27
  miraculous and what we know about Jesus specifically from
• 57:33
  the cloth. OK, let me do the last one first
• 57:35
  and the first one last. So let's start with the Jesus
• 57:39
  part and why we know it's Jesus, and then look at the image
• 57:42
  itself. And where is the shroud down?
• 57:44
  It's in Turin, Italy and. People can go see it.
• 57:48
  Well, you can't. You can go see the box, this big
• 57:53
  metallic box where it's stored, and you could pray there in
• 57:57
  front of it. But an exposition happens only
• 58:00
  now and again, and this will be relevant to some of the remarks
• 58:04
  I'll make in A. Few minutes.
• 58:06
  But the main thing right now is you could go pray in front of
• 58:10
  it. And I'm telling you, this is the
• 58:12
  burial cloth of Jesus, but I'm going to give you the evidence
• 58:14
  that I'm using to. I mean, no scientific truth can
• 58:18
  be 100% certain, but I'm 99.9% certain.
• 58:22
  This is it. And I'll give you my eight major
• 58:24
  reasons why right now. First of all, let's go back to
• 58:28
  the blood. Now the blood is sitting there
• 58:31
  on the image, but we know what produced the images.
• 58:35
  Basically, we can see detect friability, a crispiness in the
• 58:40
  cloth, an exceedingly precise crispiness that goes along what
• 58:45
  we'll call radiation sites. But the main thing to remember
• 58:49
  is that I can detect whether that crispiness is on top of the
• 58:53
  blood or underneath the blood. Now that's very important
• 58:59
  because the question arises, what came first, the blood or
• 59:03
  the image? Let's suppose it's an authentic
• 59:06
  shroud. Then of course the blood would
• 59:08
  come under the shroud. Or the minute that body's laid
• 59:10
  on the shroud, the blood would be on the shroud already, and
• 59:14
  then the image would come later. That would mean that there
• 59:17
  should be no crispiness, no friability of the cloth
• 59:21
  underneath the blood. And there isn't.
• 59:25
  The blood came first. Now Can you imagine trying to
• 59:30
  make put all the placement of the blood on that cloth?
• 59:35
  And then put the image on top of it so forger goes backwards.
• 59:40
  We're going to maybe put up a picture during the podcast so
• 59:43
  people can see those that are watching on YouTube.
• 59:44
  But when you're saying the image in the blood, doesn't the blood
• 59:47
  marks make up the image or you're saying there's an
• 59:49
  additional image? There's an additional image.
• 59:51
  Alongside the blood that is supernatural.
• 59:54
  Yes, and that image is produced by radiation.
• 59:58
  And what I will talk about later is the difference between
• 1:00:01
  ultraviolet radiation and particle radiation.
• 1:00:04
  I definitely favour the particle radiation hypothesis, but I mean
• 1:00:07
  that's. So the idea here is that God
• 1:00:10
  Jesus left a a supernatural, miraculous image on this cloth.
• 1:00:14
  Yes to prove what? To prove that he was risen from
• 1:00:18
  the dead and. I'll prove that he was risen
• 1:00:19
  from. Yeah, I mean imagine I'll just
• 1:00:21
  just skip to the to the end for just a second here.
• 1:00:24
  Basically, that image is very, very probably produced by what
• 1:00:30
  we call a low temperature nuclear reaction that occurs
• 1:00:35
  from the simultaneous disintegration of every stable
• 1:00:39
  atomic nucleus in that body. Now you look at that and you go,
• 1:00:43
  wait a minute here, you know every how many atomic nuclei do
• 1:00:48
  you have in that body? 7 octillion.
• 1:00:52
  That's like a trillion, trillion, trillion.
• 1:00:56
  And all of them simultaneously and their perfect stability
• 1:01:00
  underwent disintegration the same time.
• 1:01:03
  Are you kidding me? You know the odds of that
• 1:01:05
  happening? Monkey typing.
• 1:01:08
  You know half of a hamlet perfectly by random tapping of
• 1:01:11
  the keys in a single try. That ain't going to happen under
• 1:01:15
  any naturalistic physical scenario yet.
• 1:01:19
  I would propose, and I think I can prove to you that's exactly
• 1:01:23
  what happened. It is none other than a miracle
• 1:01:26
  in which God literally allows the entire body to disintegrate.
• 1:01:31
  But the particles that are coming off that disintegration,
• 1:01:35
  in other words, the proton deuteron flux which is a flow of
• 1:01:38
  protons and deuteron heavy charged particles, and the heavy
• 1:01:43
  neutral particles like neutrons, 2 fluxes are coming off right?
• 1:01:47
  And the the proton deuteron flux is embedding itself in the
• 1:01:51
  image, causing the picture, the crispiness, the friability, the
• 1:01:56
  perfect three-dimensional photographic negative image of
• 1:02:00
  blazon on the non photographically sensitive linen
• 1:02:03
  cloth. And the neutrons are explaining
• 1:02:06
  they're going through the clock and doing a whole lot of other
• 1:02:08
  things that need a whole lot of explanation, but at the same
• 1:02:11
  time, literally, Jesus is leaving us his the particles of
• 1:02:19
  his body embedded in the cloth which has produced this picture.
• 1:02:25
  So as his body's moving from a physical body to a spiritual
• 1:02:29
  body, the particle remnants, as he moves to that spiritual body,
• 1:02:34
  that glorious body, the particle Remnants, are literally embedded
• 1:02:39
  in the cloth, leaving us the imprint of his image.
• 1:02:43
  So we have. What you're saying, if I'm
• 1:02:46
  understanding you correctly, is we have remnants of Jesus's
• 1:02:50
  resurrected body, a supernatural body, but still his body on the
• 1:02:56
  shroud of Turin. Well, it's also his physical
• 1:02:58
  body. I mean, so as his physical
• 1:03:00
  body's transitioning, those particles are.
• 1:03:03
  Coming from the blood well. We have the blood from the, from
• 1:03:05
  the. The blood as well, so.
• 1:03:07
  We have the whole body represented here and the whole
• 1:03:10
  story, the whole drama of what took place.
• 1:03:12
  You are very right. And so, to make again a Long
• 1:03:18
  story short, the coordination between that blood and that
• 1:03:25
  image constituted. By the particles of his body,
• 1:03:29
  the the very coordination of it is is uncannily similar, almost
• 1:03:38
  identical to the gospel narratives.
• 1:03:41
  Described, I mean to the to the a unique crucifixion of Jesus
• 1:03:45
  described in the gospel narratives.
• 1:03:48
  Walk us through that. OK, so here's the the main
• 1:03:51
  thing. Remember now blood first, that's
• 1:03:53
  what you'd expect. Then image second, the radiation
• 1:03:57
  comes second from the low temperature nuclear reaction.
• 1:04:01
  OK, so you're going to have a boom and a light too.
• 1:04:04
  I'll just say that as well, but let's.
• 1:04:06
  Go through the crucifixion evidence first.
• 1:04:09
  So first, let's just take the crown of thorns.
• 1:04:11
  We have only one known crucifixion.
• 1:04:16
  In the entire history of crucifixions, only one man was
• 1:04:23
  crucified with the crown of thorns, and that was Jesus,
• 1:04:27
  because Jesus was accused of calling himself King of the
• 1:04:31
  Jews. Makes sense for him, Didn't make
• 1:04:34
  sense for anybody else. But the man in that shroud
• 1:04:38
  definitely was crucified with the crown of thorns.
• 1:04:41
  And not only that, but the the thorn that was used in the crown
• 1:04:46
  is called what and now is called a Syrian Christ thorn.
• 1:04:51
  A very long curved thorn that embeds itself not only in the
• 1:04:57
  side but on the top of the head causing a a considerable pain
• 1:05:04
  and emitting multiple wounds that actually penetrate into the
• 1:05:11
  nerves in the skull and the flesh that's surrounding the
• 1:05:15
  skull. Terribly painful cause, but a
• 1:05:18
  Syrian Christ thorn, just saying, like the pollen grains
• 1:05:23
  comes from that region of northern Judea and Jerusalem.
• 1:05:28
  Second thing is you can see between the 5th and the 6th ribs
• 1:05:33
  you can see a wound. Of course the the Gospels
• 1:05:38
  describe that a spear was thrust into Jesus's sign and outflowed
• 1:05:45
  blood and water. Remember John's Gospel and he's
• 1:05:47
  so defensive about it. He says this is see my witness
• 1:05:50
  and his witness is true. So of course he's insisting I
• 1:05:53
  saw not just blood, I saw water fly coming out of it.
• 1:05:57
  Now of course this is a unique event.
• 1:05:59
  Again, we don't have spear wounds in crucifixion in the
• 1:06:04
  history of crucifixion because that would have put a guy out of
• 1:06:06
  his misery sooner. But remember, Jesus is already
• 1:06:09
  dead. The Passover was approaching.
• 1:06:12
  They just wanted to do it as a check.
• 1:06:15
  They weren't putting him out of his misery.
• 1:06:16
  They never would have done it and they never did it in the
• 1:06:19
  history of. Christian.
• 1:06:20
  And when you say they wanted to do it as a check, it's because
• 1:06:22
  in part they didn't want him to accidentally be somehow rescued
• 1:06:29
  alive. And then this thing they were
• 1:06:31
  trying to squash, quash Christianity would bubble up
• 1:06:35
  even more fiercely because, oh, he's resurrected now.
• 1:06:38
  You're right on the marker, and not only that, but now the
• 1:06:42
  shroud really shows this is exactly what happened.
• 1:06:45
  You can actually see the spear wound.
• 1:06:47
  It's an elliptical spear wound, just like the ones that were
• 1:06:50
  used by the Legionnaires in in Rome.
• 1:06:53
  It goes between the 5th and the 6th rib up at a 30° angle into
• 1:06:58
  the thoracic cavity next to heart, and then keeps on going
• 1:07:03
  up to the pulmonary cavity. And remember, the pulmonary
• 1:07:08
  cavity is filling up with a transparent fluid.
• 1:07:11
  Kind of looks like water, but it's filling up because the man
• 1:07:15
  has to lift himself up in order to breathe.
• 1:07:18
  So now this, the pulmonary cavity is filled with the water.
• 1:07:22
  It hits the pulmonary cavity, but when it nicked the heart,
• 1:07:26
  the blood from the heart squirts out, and then the pulmonary
• 1:07:31
  fluid looks transparent, like water squirts out right
• 1:07:34
  afterward. And if you look at that wound,
• 1:07:37
  that's exactly what happened. You see the blood in the center,
• 1:07:41
  you see the pulmonary, the pleural fluid surrounding it,
• 1:07:45
  right between the 5th and 6th ribs where the spear wound
• 1:07:48
  obviously was. I mean, anatomically it is
• 1:07:52
  perfect. And we have it, you know,
• 1:07:54
  Buckner, you know, and it started with Barbett, who
• 1:07:59
  identified it, then of course of Buckner.
• 1:08:02
  And then a series like Zugaby and a series of other
• 1:08:08
  histopathologists have examined this over and over and over
• 1:08:11
  again. No question about it outflowed
• 1:08:14
  blood and a transparent fluid, just like the Gospels say.
• 1:08:18
  Then the third thing that we see is the whipping, the
• 1:08:21
  flagellation that that took place.
• 1:08:25
  Now in this case, we can tell right away Jesus has, you know,
• 1:08:30
  the he's whipped 39 times, but in with the whips.
• 1:08:36
  The Roman whips. See the the the medieval whips
• 1:08:41
  only had one strand, but the Roman whips had three strands
• 1:08:47
  and they, you know, maybe about 2 1/2 feet long.
• 1:08:51
  And they had a little lead dumbbells at the end, and those
• 1:08:55
  dumbbells would grip onto the side of the man being whipped.
• 1:09:00
  And then when they pulled it out, they would pull it out so
• 1:09:04
  that it would shred the flesh along the man's neck or back or
• 1:09:08
  shoulders or thighs or whatever was getting whipped.
• 1:09:12
  Now there was a guy to the right of Jesus and a guy to the left
• 1:09:16
  of Jesus. The guy to the right's a little
• 1:09:18
  taller than the guy on the left, but they are whipping away on
• 1:09:23
  him. And so he's left with all of
• 1:09:25
  these shredding of the flesh wounds from this whipping, and
• 1:09:32
  he is losing major blood. You can see that.
• 1:09:38
  And you can see that this blood loss is going to explain why
• 1:09:42
  Jesus died so quickly. Normally, crucifixions could
• 1:09:45
  last not only an entire day, but could actually last for two.
• 1:09:50
  Entire days or more, you know where that person is just
• 1:09:54
  suffering and agony until finally he cannot lift himself
• 1:09:58
  to breathe anymore and endure the torture.
• 1:10:01
  But in Jesus case, he was dead after three hours according to
• 1:10:05
  the scriptures and that would make sense.
• 1:10:08
  There's a tremendous amount of blood loss there.
• 1:10:10
  And by the way, this is a Roman whip.
• 1:10:12
  This is not a medieval whip, something that was invented by
• 1:10:16
  forge we we didn't have, you know, it's called a flag room.
• 1:10:21
  But we we had no evidence of a flag room until we discovered,
• 1:10:23
  you know it at Pompeii and and other archaeological sites.
• 1:10:27
  But the main thing that's important here is the whip is
• 1:10:31
  Roman, and so the elliptical head on the spear is Roman.
• 1:10:36
  So it's coming from this area where a forger would have never
• 1:10:41
  had opportunity to Get the facts right.
• 1:10:44
  Then we start looking at other things.
• 1:10:48
  For example, we can see that there is a slope to the man's
• 1:10:52
  right shoulder, and on that shoulder it's an 11 degree slope
• 1:10:56
  going downward, meaning his shoulder was dislocated.
• 1:11:03
  And so we can see in the middle of that sloped shoulder, a very
• 1:11:07
  large contusion there. And so we can also see on the
• 1:11:12
  man's knees that there are scrapes.
• 1:11:16
  So it looks like the man, obviously he's carrying a very
• 1:11:22
  heavy blood object on his shoulder.
• 1:11:25
  He somehow trips. He lurches forward, and then
• 1:11:30
  when he lurches forward, he smashes his knees onto the
• 1:11:35
  ground. This heavy object goes up in the
• 1:11:38
  air and blam and smashes his shoulder, dislocating his
• 1:11:43
  shoulder, causing the contusion in the middle.
• 1:11:46
  Then his head just snaps to the left and pulls his right eye
• 1:11:52
  into the right eye orbit. These are all of the things we
• 1:11:55
  would expect to find in an accident like this or in a fall
• 1:12:00
  like this. And of course that's exactly
• 1:12:04
  what we see on the shroud. Again, the man is tormented.
• 1:12:10
  This also explains why they get Simon of Sirene out on the deal,
• 1:12:15
  right? Because they got to have
• 1:12:19
  somebody carry him. I mean, carry the cross.
• 1:12:22
  He can't do it. He's going to be partially
• 1:12:24
  paralyzed on his right side. So there's just no way he's
• 1:12:28
  going to be able to carry that crossing for.
• 1:12:30
  So they got to get. So the Romans didn't get Simon
• 1:12:32
  of Cyrene because he felt sorry for Jesus.
• 1:12:35
  Roman didn't feel sorry for anybody.
• 1:12:37
  The basic thing is they want to torment him as much as possible,
• 1:12:39
  but Jesus couldn't do the job. So they basically get this guy
• 1:12:43
  from the fields. Then you look at the piercing in
• 1:12:46
  the hands, I mean this is really makes we only can see the exit
• 1:12:50
  wound on the right hand. So we can see for example the
• 1:12:53
  angle that you know the nail came out of and it looks like
• 1:12:57
  it's right about here on the wrist.
• 1:12:59
  So essentially when you look at that, Pierre Barbett who first
• 1:13:05
  examined it, thought that they must have put the nail right
• 1:13:09
  through the wrist itself instead of through the palm.
• 1:13:13
  But in point of fact that's Zookabee found out later that is
• 1:13:19
  not looking at the angle of the exit wound, right?
• 1:13:23
  That's not the likely scenario. The likely scenario is that the
• 1:13:28
  nail is put right in here at the lower part of the palm and this
• 1:13:32
  is what we call the thinar furrow right here.
• 1:13:36
  And there's a little channel that goes down here in the
• 1:13:39
  thinar furrow so that the nail gets put in and the nail follows
• 1:13:44
  this track of the thenar furrow and comes right out there
• 1:13:50
  exactly at the angle of the exit wound that we see in Jesus in
• 1:13:57
  the man's hand. So that again pretty much looks
• 1:14:03
  like this is Jesus by the nail prints.
• 1:14:08
  But also we can see to the the amount of pain, because there's
• 1:14:14
  a complex of nerves right here that, you know, it's
• 1:14:18
  unimaginable. Remember, man has to lift
• 1:14:21
  himself up to breathe. Well, gosh, it's just like
• 1:14:24
  pressing against this complex of nerves.
• 1:14:27
  That's just shocking him and shocking him.
• 1:14:29
  And by the way, this guy was not nailed to a little, you know,
• 1:14:32
  ledge on the cross that's coming out right.
• 1:14:37
  It's His foot is literally nailed to the wood of the cross,
• 1:14:45
  so I mean. There's no platform, is what
• 1:14:47
  we're saying. Exactly.
• 1:14:49
  There's no way to. And and when you talk about
• 1:14:51
  breathing, for those happily unfamiliar with crucifixion,
• 1:14:56
  which you know in the modern era, we largely are.
• 1:14:59
  But they're the idea that they can't breathe, they're
• 1:15:03
  suffocating because they're hanging.
• 1:15:05
  Explain that to people that part of the torture of crucifixion.
• 1:15:09
  So when you're hanging there, right, the main thing to
• 1:15:13
  remember is your diaphragm is fully distended.
• 1:15:17
  Well, it's fully distended. You're not going to be able to
• 1:15:19
  breathe. Only thing you can do is lift
• 1:15:22
  yourself up. You got to pull yourself.
• 1:15:25
  Up ripping against your own flesh.
• 1:15:26
  Ripping against your flesh, going through those nerves and
• 1:15:30
  even the nail ones, they're right through a set of nerves
• 1:15:34
  and the ankles, right, and going through the heels so that he is
• 1:15:39
  experiencing shock, aftershock as he's trying to pull himself
• 1:15:45
  up. And so essentially the man is
• 1:15:48
  being tormented for hours and hours and hours and.
• 1:15:53
  Of course he's lost all this blood, so.
• 1:15:57
  Father Spitzer, I'm sorry to interrupt you.
• 1:15:59
  This is such a sad thing to say. We have about 10 minutes left
• 1:16:04
  for the episode. OK, better.
• 1:16:06
  Get to the resurrection, Yeah, I.
• 1:16:09
  Know so you know this is this should have been a two or three
• 1:16:12
  hour 1 this is so incredible but just to just to warn you about
• 1:16:16
  that because I I I'll try not to interrupt too much because I
• 1:16:19
  keep asking all these questions but but yeah I obviously where I
• 1:16:24
  know there's there were eight things you wanted to say.
• 1:16:26
  Oh yeah, Well, suffice to say that this is none other than
• 1:16:31
  Jesus Christ. His crucifixion is unique.
• 1:16:35
  It's all Roman weaponry that's being used.
• 1:16:37
  I mean, the anatomical precision between the blood and the image
• 1:16:42
  itself is perfect, even though the blood went first and the
• 1:16:46
  image went second. I mean, I have not a single
• 1:16:49
  doubt, you know, that the body that lay in that tomb was
• 1:16:53
  crucified in exactly the way described in the gospel
• 1:16:56
  narratives, so that the gospel narrative validate the shroud
• 1:17:00
  and the shroud validates the gospel narratives.
• 1:17:04
  No question in my mind about it. What a perfect parallel.
• 1:17:07
  I can't imagine anything else explaining it except the exact
• 1:17:11
  gospel account. Let's go to the image itself.
• 1:17:15
  The image itself lies, and this is like a a photographic
• 1:17:21
  negative image. And we'll talk.
• 1:17:23
  About the three dimensionality in just a moment.
• 1:17:25
  But the one thing to remember is that image is lying on the
• 1:17:28
  uppermost surface of the fibrils on the cloth.
• 1:17:32
  It never penetrates into the medulla of the fiber or into the
• 1:17:38
  middle of the cloth, just the uppermost surface of the
• 1:17:42
  fibrils. Now that's where the crispiness
• 1:17:45
  is, as I was calling it. Now, that couldn't have happened
• 1:17:50
  because of liquids, if you like. Let's suppose you're trying to
• 1:17:54
  produce that image with a liquid.
• 1:17:55
  The liquid would have penetrated in the middle of the middle of
• 1:17:58
  the fiber and to the middle of the cloth, just like that.
• 1:18:01
  And not only would it have penetrated in the middle, it
• 1:18:03
  would have also, you know, started spangling into adjacent
• 1:18:07
  threads and so forth, making the image blurry and so forth.
• 1:18:11
  This isn't an exceedingly precise image, No blurriness at
• 1:18:15
  all. And as I said, it's photographic
• 1:18:18
  negative. So the the first thing to
• 1:18:20
  remember is you know can't be produced by liquids.
• 1:18:23
  Can it be produced by vapors? Maybe there was some aloes that
• 1:18:27
  were mixed with the hot body after the crucifixion producing
• 1:18:31
  the vapors and the vapors kind of moved into the cloth.
• 1:18:35
  Maybe that's what did the job. Absolutely.
• 1:18:38
  No. Because of course the the vapors
• 1:18:41
  are going to penetrate into the middle of the fibers and the
• 1:18:43
  middle of the cloth, and it's going to be even worse,
• 1:18:46
  spangling, even worse spread to the adjacent fiber, more
• 1:18:50
  blurriness in the image. The vapor doesn't work at all.
• 1:18:54
  How about scorching? It was burned in in some way now
• 1:18:59
  because we have a very easy test called florencing, which will
• 1:19:02
  determine very, very quickly that it was not scorched.
• 1:19:05
  OK, so what's leftover? Well, we know there's action at
• 1:19:10
  a distance. We know that there is inside
• 1:19:13
  information from the body. So the backbone inside the body
• 1:19:19
  is giving off an image as much as the flesh surrounding that
• 1:19:23
  backbone and in perfect three-dimensional
• 1:19:26
  proportionality. So we know the distance from
• 1:19:28
  Jesus's backbone, from the man's backbone to the flesh
• 1:19:31
  surrounding it, etcetera. OK, now you look at that and you
• 1:19:35
  go, what can do this? There is only one explanation.
• 1:19:40
  Radiation, in fact another name for radiation is action at a
• 1:19:46
  distance. So in other words, radiation can
• 1:19:49
  cause something to happen right at a distance without having to
• 1:19:53
  make contact. There's a ton of places where
• 1:19:57
  the shroud cloth does not make contact with the body, yet the
• 1:20:02
  image is there and it's in perfect, you know, a
• 1:20:05
  three-dimensional proportionality to the places
• 1:20:08
  that are in contact with the clock.
• 1:20:10
  And not only that, as I said. The inside of the body is
• 1:20:14
  emblazoned on the shroud in perfect three-dimensional
• 1:20:17
  proportionality. The black backbone is in perfect
• 1:20:20
  proportionality to the flesh surrounding the backbone
• 1:20:23
  etcetera. So we've got a perfect
• 1:20:25
  three-dimensional photographic negative emblazoned on a non
• 1:20:30
  photographically sensitive linen cloth.
• 1:20:32
  Radiation, radiation, radiation. Then I'm going to cut to the
• 1:20:36
  chase. There are two hypotheses for
• 1:20:39
  what kind of radiation could do this.
• 1:20:41
  The first one is the John Jackson hypothesis.
• 1:20:44
  Very excellent super physicist that that this guy and his team
• 1:20:50
  have produced a very strong explanation on the basis of what
• 1:20:55
  we call vacuum or culminated vacuum ultraviolet radiation.
• 1:21:00
  If this theory proves to be the explanation, that would require
• 1:21:04
  Lila 6 to 8 billion with AB billion watts of ultraviolet
• 1:21:11
  energy for 1:40 billionth of a second to produce that image.
• 1:21:16
  Now if that were the case, think about that 6 to 8 billion watts
• 1:21:20
  of light energy. Well, that's like 1/2 a million
• 1:21:23
  searchlights worth of light energy emerging out of that body
• 1:21:27
  for 1:40 billionth of a second, producing this snapshot.
• 1:21:32
  Let me think now. How many dead bodies produce 1/2
• 1:21:36
  a million searchlights worth of light energy for 140 millionth
• 1:21:40
  of a second Zero, except Jesus, because the cause cannot
• 1:21:46
  possibly be naturalistically naturalistic.
• 1:21:48
  By the way, if you tried to produce that image with all the
• 1:21:51
  ultraviolet microwave radiation in the entire world today, it
• 1:21:56
  would require 14,000 Arf excimer lasers to do that, which is more
• 1:22:01
  than all of the capacity we have in the entire world and every
• 1:22:05
  laboratory today. How did the medieval forge your
• 1:22:08
  poll? And I don't think so.
• 1:22:10
  So I mean, it's obviously a miracle, miracle, miracle with a
• 1:22:13
  capital M, no question about that.
• 1:22:15
  So that's a possibility. Here's the problem.
• 1:22:17
  There are 42 enigmas on the shroud, and only 21 of them are
• 1:22:21
  explained by the ultraviolet radiation hypothesis.
• 1:22:26
  And even the information from the backbone, the bones in the
• 1:22:29
  hand, the inside of the body, right.
• 1:22:31
  All that information is, is not going to be explained by the
• 1:22:36
  ultraviolet radiation hypothesis, A secondary
• 1:22:39
  hypothesis, which I'm a believer in this comes from Jean Baptiste
• 1:22:43
  when out over at the Institute of Physique in in Paris and
• 1:22:47
  Doctor Kitty Little, who's over in the Hartwell laboratories in
• 1:22:53
  Great Britain and also Doctor Arthur Lynn who is here in this
• 1:22:57
  country, very esteemed, all of them, very esteemed physicists
• 1:23:02
  came up with another one called the particle radiation
• 1:23:04
  hypothesis. I'm going to cut to the chase
• 1:23:06
  here. This is basically what the
• 1:23:09
  hypothesis says, that at one specific time, after the blood
• 1:23:14
  has already been embedded on the cloth at one specific time, what
• 1:23:19
  you're going to see is the body is going to undergo complete
• 1:23:23
  nuclear disintegration, producing a low temperature
• 1:23:27
  nuclear reaction simultaneously. As I said, the odds of that
• 1:23:32
  occurring by pure chance naturalistically is about the
• 1:23:36
  same odds as monkey typing it half a Macbeth.
• 1:23:39
  Good luck on that. So the perfectly in a single
• 1:23:43
  try. So good luck on that.
• 1:23:45
  That's a miracle if ever there was one.
• 1:23:47
  So what happened? Basically, what is congestion
• 1:23:50
  when the low temperature nuclear reaction occurred?
• 1:23:54
  Basically there's a big light and a boom that takes place
• 1:23:58
  after the light and not after, but almost simultaneous with the
• 1:24:02
  light and the boom. You've got two fluxes, 2 flows
• 1:24:05
  of particles coming up, positively charged heavy
• 1:24:07
  particles like protons and deuterons and neutral right?
• 1:24:10
  A non charge, a heavy particles called neutrons that are coming
• 1:24:14
  and some other particles that are there, but just call it
• 1:24:17
  neutrons for the single. The main thing though that's
• 1:24:20
  happening is it explains all 42 enigmas on the shroud, every
• 1:24:24
  single one of them. And it leaves a remnant which
• 1:24:27
  can be tested in the next exposition of the shroud.
• 1:24:31
  Next, scientific testing of the shroud.
• 1:24:32
  That would actually guarantee that this was the explanation.
• 1:24:36
  And to make a Long story short, it's the what happens is you got
• 1:24:40
  these positively charged heavy particles, they're moving up to
• 1:24:44
  the surface of the shroud. When they move up to to the
• 1:24:48
  surface, the electrons that are embedded in the linen are going
• 1:24:52
  to start reacting with the positively charged particles
• 1:24:56
  that are coming and they stick. Where do they stick?
• 1:25:00
  Right at the uppermost surface of the fibrils, where the
• 1:25:04
  crispiness of the image resides. So that's the precise spot.
• 1:25:09
  Now, the neutrons, on the other hand, they're not causing the
• 1:25:13
  image. They're going right through the
• 1:25:15
  cloth. And we're going to talk about
• 1:25:17
  five ways in which those neutrons affect the cloth.
• 1:25:20
  Let me just give you some of the things that are really important
• 1:25:25
  here. We always wondered, if this were
• 1:25:28
  a forgery, how could anybody, right?
• 1:25:30
  Let's suppose you. It's not a forgery I.
• 1:25:32
  Don't know, but I just give the hypothesis.
• 1:25:36
  It's it's it's mind blowing. It's mind blowing what you're
• 1:25:38
  saying and it's mind blowing that every single Christian,
• 1:25:42
  every single Christian. I don't care if you're Catholic,
• 1:25:45
  orthodox, Protestant, evangelical Bible, whatever.
• 1:25:47
  You call yourself as a Christian, a believer that you
• 1:25:50
  don't know about this, and you don't allow this to strengthen
• 1:25:56
  your faith and allow this to impassion.
• 1:26:00
  You to want to share the good news of the resurrection with
• 1:26:03
  every single person you that you know.
• 1:26:04
  Oh yeah, and I mean, like I said, it's it's so convincing.
• 1:26:10
  I'm 99.9% sure. Like I said, we could never
• 1:26:13
  explain how that cloth could have ever been removed by human
• 1:26:17
  being or mechanical means. Because if you remove the cloth
• 1:26:20
  from the dead body where the blood was already adhering, it
• 1:26:23
  would segment, fragment and smear every single blood
• 1:26:26
  stained, practically every single blood stained on that
• 1:26:28
  cloth. But none of them are smeared,
• 1:26:30
  fragmented. So you're.
• 1:26:31
  Saying the cloth cloth was miraculously removed from Jesus.
• 1:26:34
  Exactly. In other words, the body
• 1:26:36
  disappeared from underneath it and left the blood perfectly
• 1:26:40
  intact. But that's an explanation.
• 1:26:43
  Second thing to look at is we always wondered, hey how could
• 1:26:47
  the image? Be on the inside of the from the
• 1:26:51
  inside of the body as well as the surface of the body.
• 1:26:53
  How could that happen? Well, just think about it for a
• 1:26:56
  second. The the protons and deuterons
• 1:26:59
  that are causing the image, they leave the surface of the body at
• 1:27:02
  the same time that the backbone ones, Let's say the backbone
• 1:27:07
  particles are leaving the backbone, but the backbone ones
• 1:27:10
  have more distance to travel. Well, a split second distance to
• 1:27:14
  travel. But notice how then the other
• 1:27:17
  ones, the surface ones, are already out of the way by the
• 1:27:20
  time the particles from the backbone are trying to get up,
• 1:27:25
  you know, to the surface of the body, notice that they're
• 1:27:29
  already all the other particles that were in front of it, as it
• 1:27:33
  were. They're all cleared out.
• 1:27:35
  And because they're all cleared out, essentially they go and
• 1:27:39
  they create an image of the backbone as well.
• 1:27:42
  So we can explain totally how you can get a perfect image of
• 1:27:45
  what's inside the body as well as outside the body with perfect
• 1:27:48
  three-dimensional proportionality.
• 1:27:50
  We always wondered why the blood stains were bright red, They
• 1:27:54
  couldn't be explained by bilirubin alone or something
• 1:27:56
  like that. We always wondered.
• 1:27:58
  And now we know because when you what we call irradiate blood
• 1:28:03
  with neutrons, so you if you, you know these neutrons are
• 1:28:07
  passing heavy part passing through this blood and when you
• 1:28:11
  they pass through very rapidly they irradiate the blood and
• 1:28:15
  that radiation that lasts for a long time.
• 1:28:18
  So of course, if you put that irradiated blood on an irregular
• 1:28:21
  old sunlight, like say, on an exhibition, it turns bright red.
• 1:28:26
  Every single one of those things.
• 1:28:28
  Again, we couldn't explain that previously.
• 1:28:31
  We always wondered why is it that the frontal and the dorsal
• 1:28:34
  images, right, the dorsal back frontal and why they are at
• 1:28:38
  equal intensities? After all, gravity should act on
• 1:28:42
  the body, you know, and so push the the shroud of the body down
• 1:28:47
  onto the shroud, giving a more precise, clear image.
• 1:28:51
  But nay, the basically the the images are identical intensity.
• 1:28:57
  How could this happen? Because in every nuclear
• 1:28:59
  reaction there is truly what we call a vacuum, right?
• 1:29:04
  And the vacuum sucks both sides of the cloth toward the center
• 1:29:09
  at equal intensities. I mean, I'm talking about every
• 1:29:14
  42 enigmas we could never explain, and all of them are
• 1:29:18
  explained by this hypothesis. There's also a definitive test
• 1:29:23
  that can be made and every low temperature nuclear reaction,
• 1:29:27
  they're going to be what we call cosmogenic isotopes that
• 1:29:31
  basically like Calcium 41 or Chlorine 36 which you know they
• 1:29:37
  they never occur in any abundance except near a nuclear
• 1:29:40
  reaction or an outer space where you have some novas and
• 1:29:44
  supernovas and thing. OK.
• 1:29:45
  So the main thing though is if you we get this clot and we find
• 1:29:50
  any abundance of cosmogenic isotopes in this cloth, I'm
• 1:29:54
  telling you the the particle radiation hypothesis is the
• 1:29:57
  explanation. So here in a nutshell is what I
• 1:30:01
  think happened. And I think it had to be
• 1:30:04
  produced by God because you can't have, you know, 7
• 1:30:07
  octillions perfectly stable atomic nuclei disintegrating
• 1:30:10
  simultaneous without, you know, God doing the work.
• 1:30:15
  Because it ain't naturalistic. And what you're about to say is
• 1:30:18
  ultimately the scientific explanation for the resurrection
• 1:30:22
  of the crucified Jesus Christ. Well, that's pretty much it.
• 1:30:25
  I mean basically I think what happened is as Jesus is lying
• 1:30:31
  there with the blood, of course on his body, etcetera.
• 1:30:35
  What happens is kaboom, you know, big flash of light.
• 1:30:41
  Simultaneously the protons and deuterons are flying up into,
• 1:30:46
  you know, interacting with the electrons in the cloth and
• 1:30:49
  producing this three-dimensional photographic negative image
• 1:30:53
  right there on the clock. The neutrons are passing through
• 1:30:56
  that clock and not only making the blood bright red, but
• 1:30:59
  they're reinforcing it right? The neutrons tear all what's
• 1:31:03
  called the the the linear bonds. You know, there there's carbonyl
• 1:31:08
  bonds in the cloth, and those carbonal bonds are torn.
• 1:31:11
  The linear ones are weak ones, tear them apart and they
• 1:31:14
  reconfigure them in a crystalline fashion, which is
• 1:31:17
  very, very strong. That explains why the shroud is
• 1:31:21
  so resistant to solvents, so resistant to age, and so
• 1:31:29
  resistant to consistent touching and everything else that's
• 1:31:33
  happened to it. And it shows none of the signs
• 1:31:35
  of wear and tear because the carbonal bonds have been almost
• 1:31:39
  transformed into crystalline ones from this neutron fluxus
• 1:31:42
  neutron district. So the main thing to to see
• 1:31:45
  though in in all of this is these particles are flying up
• 1:31:49
  and they're leaving us truly not just with a picture, but the
• 1:31:54
  picture is constituted by the physical particles that were the
• 1:31:59
  residual, as it were of Jesus's physical body.
• 1:32:03
  When those particles are transformed, as it were
• 1:32:06
  integrated into the spiritual body that he becomes, the
• 1:32:09
  residual of those particles is embedded right there in that
• 1:32:13
  cloth along with the blood that leaves as it were, the remnant
• 1:32:18
  of his entire body there. You know in the picture for us
• 1:32:23
  to see along with his blood, that not only validates that it
• 1:32:27
  is really him, but validates the narratives, the gospel
• 1:32:32
  narratives about this event and even validates the spiritual
• 1:32:37
  resurrection that's talked about in the scriptures.
• 1:32:41
  At the end of the day, Lila, I would just say this.
• 1:32:46
  I would say that God planned this 2000, almost 2100 years
• 1:32:52
  ago. And now that the scientists are
• 1:32:55
  finally discovering what wonders the Lord has worked, he's
• 1:32:59
  sitting up in heaven with a big smile, going gotcha.
• 1:33:05
  And that's the mystery. So that's the third area, the
• 1:33:10
  scientific area, which basically corresponds with the NT right
• 1:33:16
  arguments corresponds with the traditional Pauline legal
• 1:33:20
  arguments and other data like that.
• 1:33:23
  And of course the empty tomb is a whole other approach.
• 1:33:26
  But really, we've got so much evidence for the resurrection,
• 1:33:31
  including, you know, these apostles are out there working
• 1:33:36
  miracles in Jesus name for hundreds of years.
• 1:33:40
  What do you think? I think that the.
• 1:33:42
  I think I'm a Christian, yeah. Pretty good.
• 1:33:47
  My goodness, Thank you, Father Spitzer.
• 1:33:49
  I mean, what a gift to the Church your explanation is, and
• 1:33:53
  to the faithful. And I hope and I pray that this
• 1:33:56
  can encourage people in their faith and just fill our hearts
• 1:33:59
  with gratitude for what the Lord has done and that we can share
• 1:34:04
  this because what a treasure salvation is, there's nothing
• 1:34:08
  else. It is only the Lord.
• 1:34:10
  So thank you, Father Spitzer. Sure.
• 1:34:12
  Maybe next time if I come back, you better come back.
• 1:34:14
  Eucharistic miracles. Yeah, we got to get to that.
• 1:34:17
  There's so much here. So thank you, Father.
• 1:34:19
  OK, so where I know it's magiccenter.com.
• 1:34:22
  Oh yeah, please go to magiccenter.com.
• 1:34:25
  Also go Sophia Institute for Teachers if you're interested in
• 1:34:29
  our high school middle school curricula.
• 1:34:31
  And also, if you want to pick up a book, pick up Science at the
• 1:34:36
  Doorstep to God, which is out not right now and coming up in
• 1:34:39
  August, Science at the Doorstep to Christ.
• 1:34:41
  Both Ignatius Press. Thank you.
• 1:34:43
  Amazing. Amazing.
• 1:34:44
  Thank you so much, Father Spitzer.
• 1:34:48
  Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Lila Rose
• 1:34:50
  Podcast. As always, it was a delight to
• 1:34:53
  have Father Spitzer here in studio and we look forward to
• 1:34:56
  having him back again. As always, send me your
• 1:34:58
  thoughts. You can e-mail me at
• 1:35:00
  lila@gtbmedia.com Lila at gtbmedia.com.
• 1:35:05
  I love to hear from you guys. Let me know what you want me to
• 1:35:07
  ask Father Spitzer about next time he's a wealth of knowledge,
• 1:35:10
  and let me know any other guest ideas or topic ideas that you'd
• 1:35:13
  like to see covered on the podcast.
• 1:35:15
  As usual, don't forget to subscribe to the show wherever
• 1:35:18
  you get your podcast and subscribe to us on YouTube and
• 1:35:22
  support the show through Patreon and locals.
• 1:35:24
  The links are in the bio. This will help the podcast reach
• 1:35:27
  more people. Thanks so much and have a very
• 1:35:29
  blessed Easter.