Latest / Strange Stuff Podcast / Episode 235: Into The Manosphere

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Episode 235: Into The Manosphere · Strange Stuff Podcast

• Andy: real Irish. Hello everyone, I'm Andy. Mark: Mark. What sorry was it? Keep it real Irish. Andy: And. Yes, it's been St. Patrick's Day this week. And of course it went straight past you as usual. Mark: I said, ⁓ my God. Well, I don't have any Irish family. The only connection I have with Ireland is Shane. Andy: ⁓ Close enough. So you didn't celebrate St. Patrick's at all then? Mark: No, which day was it? Maybe I did and I didn't realize it. Andy: The 17th. that would be ⁓ Tuesday. I did celebrate it. I had a couple of Irish cocktails. Yep. Mark: Tuesday. I did. Did you? What, literally? What's an Irish cocktail? An Irish coffee? Andy: Now it's a pint of Guinness with a potato. Mark: Idiot! Did you know that the potato is the only food that you can basically survive on just eating potatoes? Andy: I've done it for years. Mark: Well, I never understood, you know, the Irish famine and all of that, that terrible time when the British were basically starving out the Irish people and they were only left with potatoes. And the reason why it was Andy: Yeah, you can't starve them out if they've got potatoes. Mark: No, but that's exactly the point, that potato is one of the very, very few foods that you can eat just potatoes and you can sort of survive. Andy: Yeah, incredible. Mark: Yeah. And do I eat enough potatoes? I probably don't eat enough potatoes. Andy: Also this week, in fact today, not today, but today when the episode is released, it's my birthday. Mark: Oh, that's right. And I know you told me just the other day. It's the 22nd, isn't it? Andy: Sunday, yeah. Mark: ⁓ Well, I hope your birthday is more exciting than my actual birthday. Andy: Yeah, but I mean, nobody knew about your birthday. Now, I've given you plenty of notice. I expect a little... Mark: Uhhh What flowers? Andy: Mr. Andy, Mr. Andy, can you help me carry these cases? Mark: You ⁓ dear. No. I mean, you're lucky you catch me in a good mood this morning because I've been a bit. I don't know. I'm just getting more and more angry these days. Maybe it's just coming with age. And I'll tell you what, if it's if it's accelerating at this rate, I'm going to be pretty impossible given six months down the road. Andy: ⁓ what are you angry about? mean, it can't still be the orange one. He's not actually, before we go into that, he's not the only fucking pedophile in the news today. Mark: ⁓ well it is- he's not the only paedophile in the news. Why, give me another one. Andy: Gary Glitter Mark: ⁓ he's died, has he? Andy: 81 years old, in prison, but apparently he's wheelchair bound, deaf as a post, and he's in his cell basically doing nothing 23 hours a day and they reckon he's on his last legs. Mark: Yeah. What was his name? Paul Gad. That's right. Andy: Paul Gad. And I knew that off the top of my head, I didn't even have to look it up. ⁓ Mark: Well no, because I think you've met him, haven't you, Gary Glitter? No, but didn't he come into the crowbar or something, or I thought you'd met him? Andy: Fuck off. No, no, Gary Glitter was not welcome at the Kroger ever. He was arrested for the first time like 25 years ago. Mark: Yeah, but that's not that long ago, actually. ⁓ no, sorry, you weren't working. You were in Sweden 25 years ago, yeah. All right. Andy: All No, wasn't actually. was still in England. But actually, But the thing is, he was already a well-known fucking sex offender. And in those days, especially when I was in SoHo, he was mostly in Vietnam and Cambodia. Mark: ⁓ I see what literally molesting children in the the. God, yeah. So where did you read that? Is that in the current ban or something? Andy: Yeah, yeah, basically. That's the top story in the current bun, surprisingly. Mark: Is it? Is it really? That is the top story in the current barn. It's not literally on the front page. Andy: Yeah, there's obviously nothing else going on in the world. Mark: ⁓ I got really annoyed with you see I'm I'm literally I'm starting to sound like a grumpy old man listening to your hero Nick Ferrari the other day Andy: You know, he's not my hero. Mark: I know, I know. So this poor guy, he phones up from Wigan and he's saying it's just insanity going to going to help America and Israel and Iran. Why on earth should we be doing that? And Nick Ferrari went on to a rant about how this fellow was a coward and that there was a yellow streak running through Wigan. He was really insulting of this guy and Andy: Yeah, but he's a four by two, isn't he? Ferrari. Mark: What's a 4x2? Andy: Cockney rhyming saying. Mark: He doesn't make any difference whether he's Jewish or not. It's the absurdity of this. Andy: Well, it kind of does because he's going to stick up for Israel no matter what they do. Mark: I don't think Nick Ferrari is Jewish, he came from Switzerland, he's a Swiss Jew, is he? Anyway, it was just the absurdity of, ⁓ Andy: Just look at him, he's definitely Jewish. Mark: It doesn't make any difference what religion he is, he's still insane. I mean... Andy: No, but he is, he is a Trump apologist as well. Mark: Well no, clearly, because literally you've got a homicidal maniac in the form of Netanyahu and then you've got this deranged liar on his knees with his face buried into Netanyahu's crutch and then Nick Ferrari is actually criticizing someone, describing them as a coward because he thinks we should all join in. I don't know how he's still got a license to ⁓ be a journalist. Andy: You obviously don't need a license or an intelligence test. Mark: well clearly you don't. I mean that that annoyed me and then um 20 nearly 23 krona I'm updating the price as we go 23 krona so it starts off at 16 19 and half 21 and a half now it's at 23 um and all the indications are it's going to get worse and you have uh what's her name Andy: It's gonna get worse. Yeah. Mark: The one who's got the sort of Star Trek colour streak through her hair, Tulsi Gabbard or something is her name? The head of intelligence for the US. The head of intelligence. Well, clearly. her depart... No, no, no. She was Homeland Security. Andy: No idea. There isn't one. Didn't the head of intelligence just resign actually? Joe Kent? No, Joe Kent. Mark: No, well, he worked in her department. So this woman has got a staff of probably thousands and they generate a report literally a few days ago that says Iran's nuclear capability was obliterated. They are no imminent threat. So she's being interviewed by the Parliamentary Committee, whatever it's called in America. And the fellows literally reading from this report saying Iran's nuclear threat has been obliterated. and they haven't done anything to rebuild their nuclear capabilities. And so they said, who told Trump, what intelligence was Trump using that made him determine that they had an imminent nuclear threat three days away and they could have a nuclear bomb? And she said, ⁓ the president is the only person who's able to make an informed judgment about the threat of Iran. And I thought, you stupid cow. You've got a staff of thousands. You actually are responsible for intelligence and you're leaving it up to the orange lunatic to make the decision as to whether there's a threat on it. What's the point? You should just walk, your job is redundant. You should just leave. You did. I mean, it's worth looking at. Andy: Yeah, I do actually see a bit of that. It appeared on my Facebook feed. Mark: and you've got these five bloody army generals or whoever they are sitting next to her all saying the same thing. I mean seriously, I've got to appeal to any Republican voter who's listening to us. You've got to get real. You've got to do something right to your bloody congressman and say this is getting out of hand. Andy: Yeah, we don't know anything about military. There is no, there is no time. They, and the only way you can stop Trump now is with a bullet. It's the only safe route. And I'm not one to advocate violence, but for fuck's sake, will somebody shoot that cunt? Mark: Well... No, so anyway, so you know, it's funny how I've noted how we've talked about it actually, that it started off as entertaining and a talking point for us on the podcast. And it's so absurd, it's beyond a joke and I'm just starting to get angry. I'll tell you what, if there were literally, if there were demonstrations in Stockholm, I think I'd go down and join in to whatever parade past the American embassy and get your fucking act together. Andy: Well, good for Sweden. They've stood up and said, fuck you, Trump. Not interested in helping you out, Mark: Yep. Yep. Yep. And the audacity to start saying, we should help, help you in your insanity. Andy: This is the mind that you're dealing with. It's a three year old fucking tantrum. He does believe that by being voted in the president of the USA, it literally means he's God of the world. Mark: Yeah. Well, I don't know if you saw what happened overnight. Apparently, know, Hesketh, we've destroyed all of their military capability. They seem pretty capable of sending ballistic missiles across Qatar, which they did overnight. Exactly. Andy: Yeah, blowing up the gas lines and, and, know, they'll continue doing that for years to come if necessary. And of course, Trump is like flapping again, saying, ⁓ you know, why should we look after the straights of humus? We've got all the oil we need. It's up to you lot to come and fucking deal with it. No, it's not up to us actually, you fucking wanker. If we actually had any backbone. Mark: Yeah. I know it. You started the situation. Andy: We would be attacking America. Mark: Anyway, so there's all that going on in the background and then on your recommendation for what I hoped was some sort of entertaining light relief, I watched the Louis Thoreau documentary. Andy: I did warn you. I did warn you it was a tough watch. Mark: What was so shocking in my mind was the level of ⁓ almost sort of worship. You know, those young kids that were running up to that fellow in the street. I mean, it could have been a set up, but I don't imagine so with Louis Thoreau. ⁓ it's him. It's him. Let me take a selfie. Andy: Well, look, we're going to talk about that today. So you can save your little opinions and I will destroy them in due course. Mark: ⁓ are we? Yeah. Yes, well, anyway, well, if we're going to talk about it today, we won't cover it. But there's very little else light heartedly going on in the world. mean, there is very little escape. mean, Andy: I mean, we had Trump trying to put someone down who criticized him. And he referred to him as, oh yeah, by the way, the President of the United States, so and so, whoever it was, not him, the President of the United States entitled him, and his name, and he's so dumb. He's so dumb. Mark: of the Irish. ⁓ yes, yes. No, the California man. Dumb, that's right. No, it's, ⁓ Craigson, Knutson. Who's the California guy? I mean, the fellow suffers from dyslexia. And Trump describes that. He's admitted he has a mental disorder. He's dumb. He's so dumb. He did. Anyway. Andy: ⁓ Someone really needs to take a pin in that guy. I don't know. Yeah, he's done. This is a man who can't say statistics. ⁓ Mark: I have a feeling, I have a feeling that Trump is probably terminally ill. Andy: I hope so. I hope it's gonna be fucking, it would be nice for it to be long and painful, but it would be for everybody's benefit if it was overnight. Mark: Now I have a feeling that he is terminally ill and he's serving the purpose for all of these people in the background and it's going to be... he's not going to be martyred obviously because he's not going to be killed. Andy: Do you know, people keep talking about, there's a lot of stuff comes up on my feed, which is like, what would you do if Trump was dead tomorrow? And 99 % of the response from the great general public is street party. And, know, you were talking about me and you can't go to America. We're not the only ones, you know. Do you know now with the world cup? Mark: I ⁓ Andy: They've introduced Have America, a thing called the integrity visa fee, whereby they're going to charge everybody $250 just to enter America. Right. For this, I don't know whose integrity they've bought, but $250 just to enter America. If you are a national from any country, you will be required to hand over the passwords for your social media and it will be checked to make sure there's nothing anti-Trump in there. then you will be shot. Technically. Mark: And if you're a black person, they just don't let you in. Andy: The worst that can happen to you as a white person is they will insist on going through your social media to see if you've said anything anti-Trump, in which case you'll be thrown out of the country immediately. And if you're black, you've got the added bonus of not only having your social media trawled, but also becoming target practice for the ice boys once you hit the streets. Mark: I wonder, I wonder what the numbers are of the people playing. I mean, they must know how many people are planning on going to the States to watch the matches. Andy: A hell of a lot have changed their minds and I hope none of them go. And again, England, start the ball rolling, just say no. Just do not go to this fucking competition. Mark: Mm. Yeah, well it's a very interesting point actually because England football team is representing England and the important but the important part of England is the population of England and if they decide that they don't want to support the American regime by appearing at the World Cup in supporting them then the team should pull out. Andy: Yes, but not in this case. They should pull out anyone. I mean, if I was one of these footballers, wouldn't, I wouldn't, you cannot in this instance separate sport and politics because it's out of control. They're asking you to play sport in a country that is technically at war. And I would have to turn around and say, I ain't going. Mark: It has to be driven by the supporters, surely? How ⁓ many of the England players are black? Andy: Probably at least 50 % I guess. Mark: So if half the team literally risk being arrested by ICE for whatever reason, for literally just existing, why would they want... well, obviously they don't want to go, I assume, it's they're being ordered to go, but why are they being forced to go? Andy: for existing. Well no one's going to force any of them to go, any one of them can turn around and say not interested. If you send me I will kick the ball the wrong way. Mark: Mmm. Maybe that is something we should start, Andy. A little promotion to stop England. Or hang on, is Sweden in the World Cup? Andy: Yeah, they've probably qualified. Mark: ⁓ I don't know actually, have they? Andy: They normally qualify I think. I'm not sure. Mark: But you know, mean, it's how can you possibly support sending an international team representing your country to America at this point in time? Andy: I read a lot of in the comments section, which seems to be where I get most of my fucking opinions these days. There's a lot of people saying, I've been to America like dozen times over the last 20 years, I'm never going again. Why would you want to go there? And Americans even posting saying, last time I went abroad, I told everyone I was Canadian. And there was a sign of a... Mark: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Andy: chalkboard outside a pub that said Americans must be accompanied by an adult. There was another one I saw that said Americans, please pretend you're from Canada. Mark: You Andy: Hmm Mark: Oh, God, dear, we need something. I mean, you the highlight of my day just to distract myself from all of what's going on. And I don't I'm not even in the working world. You know, I'm retired. You know, whatever goes on, as long as my pension keeps being paid, I literally don't have any worries. But if you were if you were 30 years, I mean, like our children. I mean, what sort of world are they having to cope with? Andy: Yeah. Well, you know, the world they live in today is not a world that I want to live in, to be honest. Apparently in the UK the average age for the first time house buyer went up from 28 to 34. First time buyer. And that's, that's an average of 34, which means there's a lot of people older than that. Mark: Yeah. Yeah. at 34. Did you ever own and I think I've asked you sorry, but I was on, was literally, I can tell you and you, know you'll take the piss. I was on a completely normal salary. 13,000 was my starting salary and I was able to buy a house. Andy: No. No. Yeah, I you told her. Yeah, but you you couldn't buy a car for that these days. Mark: 49,000 was the price of my house. Andy: You could get a second hand car for that now. Mark: Yeah, you're right. I mean, do you know how much a Golf GTI is these days? A Golf GTI is about 50,000 sterling, right? Maybe it's the R model, but 50,000 sterling. And I can tell you, sadly again, even though I was... Oh no, actually, I'll tell you what, it was even before I started my job at 13,000 in banking. Andy: Bye. Mark: I was able to buy a brand new Golf GTI from Collindale VW for £7700. Andy: Six months wages, imagine. Mark: I mean I was, I can't remember, well it's 1983. So I was 23 years old and I was able to buy a brand new Golf GTI. And I wasn't earning anything special. was just that's where you spent your money when you were 22. You didn't have kids or any responsibilities. You wanted a car. Andy: Were you never interested in the XR3i? Because that was about the same time, wasn't it? Mark: Well, you see, that's where you and I differ, Andy. You were definitely an XR3 man and I was obviously a Golf GTI man. Andy: No, I was not. I was not because I never used to have cars when I lived in London. Mark: ⁓ No, ⁓ XR3i was ⁓ boy racer. Andy: Well, was just the Ford convertible, wasn't it? was like a little dolly. It was like a Barbie mobile, really. Mark: It wasn't a convertible. No, there was a convertible funnily enough. Andy: Friend of mine had one. He was the pub manager, my local pub, when I was living in Highgate Road. And he bought one that had, it was the worst color. He said it was Amethyst. It was pink. Mark: It wasn't that really rabid purple sort of colour. Andy: It was, it was awful. And it had an electric sun roof and everything. ⁓ Yeah, sun roof. So like you could stop at the traffic lights and press the button and it would... Mark: ⁓ ⁓ my god. Andy: folded itself down, but it was embarrassing. I mean, I always, I don't know, they never appealed to me. Mark: You're telling me. No, but you know, so the world that the kids live in these days, I mean, it's just incomparable. They have to sell their souls to get a mortgage. They can't afford anything really pleasurable. mean, you know, obviously if they've got, you know, mom and dad to provide them with a hand-penning, a deposit on a house, but outside of that, they're all just struggling. And what's even more bizarre is... the way people keep saying, is everybody having a mental illness in England? Why is no one fit for work? What the fuck is the motivation to go out to work? You're literally working for nothing. There's no hope of ever owning a house. All you're doing is just entering the grind. Why on earth would you want to do that? No, and no, no hope. Andy: Yeah. Yeah, with no goal in sight. Mark: of ever actually getting on top of the situation and being able to afford to do the most basic things. People don't even go to the pub anymore because they haven't got any money. And they're saying, ⁓ mental health is all going crazy. Everybody's mentally sick. I'd be bloody mentally sick. I'll tell you if I was living in that environment with no way out. Anyway, there's another rant. God, it's going to be a rant full. Andy: Well, unfortunately, you're sort of taking my job off my hands today. Mark: Yeah, exactly. No, but I feel so sorry, especially for the young people. And I blame my own generation. It's me and all of us, to you to a lesser extent, because you took less out of the system. But we were the ones that bled the system dry and left nothing. Andy: You see, you're wrong. You're wrong. You're wrong again. See, we definitely swap places because you are coming at this from the wrong end of the telescope. You're on the wrong side of history. It's not us. It's the fucking rich. It's always the rich. They build these situations for us to look at each other and blame each other. And it's not our fault. Mark: What do you mean? Well, you tell me. to an extent, you see that is, you know, that is where we do differ because in terms of our life experience, because I would have to accept that I was definitely part of the problem. I mean, what I left behind. Andy: Yeah, but you would be, were a tool. You were a tool. You were being used by people who were much more involved in that system than you. They just didn't want to get their hands dirty. So they use people like you. Mark: Maybe, maybe that's true. My only let out or excuse is that of course I did leave it. I I actually made a conscious decision. This is not for me. I'm moving to the country with the highest taxation rate in the world sort of thing. But anyway, that's sort of retro, no, what was the opposite of retribution? When you do my penance, it my only, no, mitigating the only sort of redemption. Yeah, redemption sort of, yeah, yeah. My only redemption or my redemption was that I actually walked away from the system. Andy: I'm going to penalize myself. Anyway before we get started on today's... Redemption. Redemption. Redemption. Redemption. You're- Okay. Now, before we go into today's topic, which I will surprise you with in a minute, because it's my birthday weekend and because technically today is my birthday, we're going to have a look at what happened on my birthday. 22nd of March through history. Well, mean, November the 5th, sort of. Mark: Hahaha Yes. Yes. 22nd of March, go for it. Guy Fawkes. ⁓ you're right. ⁓ Andy: rings a bell for me on that particular one but it was a very good guess mark well done here's a gold star Mark: You You Andy: So... Yes, the Jamestown Massacre in 1622, which was when Poe Hutton warriors attacked English settlers at Jamestown. I think we sort of brought this up as an aside in one of our stories recently. Mark: Sorry, who was Poe Poe Hutton Warriors? Andy: Manhattan Warriors, Warriors. This is in America, obviously, in Virginia. Mark: No, but are they a type of, were they an Indian race or something? Andy: They were a Native American, we like to call ourselves. Mark: Well, Native American race. Po Hutton. Alright. Alright. Andy: So they attacked the English settlers at Jamestown, killing 347 people, which was almost a quarter of the entire colony's population in Virginia at the time. Mark: Yeah. Andy: John Smith, not a fake name, wrote about the Jamestown Massacre in his history of Virginia, although he wasn't actually in the colony at the time. So he was obviously a member of the British Armed Forces who wasn't quite on the front lines. And in 1765, on this day, the British government passed the Stamp Act, which was basically it required American citizens to pay taxes on things like paper, documents, and even playing cards in order to pay for the British troops that were stationed in the territory during the Seven Years War. Mark: which was... What? They started taxing paper products to pay for a war? Andy: Yeah, yeah. But only for Americans. Mark: ⁓ Andy: So was a punitive tax. However, colonial legislators had not approved the tax and many residents considered it taxation without representation. And the act and others like it helped set in motion the eventual fight for American independence from the British, which apparently in fact is celebrating their 250th anniversary this year. Mark: America? Is it? Andy: Yeah, 250 years this year. Mark: Well, that's sort of something to celebrate, but though I have to say, I wouldn't... I think they might have done better if they'd kept us on board. Andy: You know damn well that Trump is going to award himself a prize for this. Mark: ⁓ yes, of course it was him. He stopped that war. He was responsible for stopping the War of Independence. Andy: Not only, he started it and he stopped it in an hour, but more than that, he's also, he should give himself a prize for being able to, in the space of 12 months, tear down 249 years of history. Although having said that, out of those 250 years, the USA have only not been at war for 16 of them. They've been at war with someone for All but 16 of the last 250 years. Mark: That sounds like a bit of a chach EBT statistic, unfortunately. Andy: It's fucking true. I thought that as well, but it's fucking true. You can check it out yourself. We don't have time to do it now. But it's an interesting fact. The most warmongering country in the world. Mark: Yeah, but he did get the FIFA Peace Prize, so he must have got it for a reason. Andy: I think that was, they didn't want to do it posthumously. So they gave it to him now in the hopes that he would just fucking shuffle off his mortal coil and then perhaps we could find peace. And this is more relevant actually. In 1935, on this day, Persia became Iran. Mark: out. 19 what? Andy: 35. Mark: No it didn't. Andy: country formerly known as Persia, officially began going by the name of Iran. Mark: But what happened in 74 then? Andy: think you mean... Mark: was the Shah, ⁓ you're right actually, very good point because it was the Shah of Iran who was disposed, not disposed, deposed in 1974 or was it eight I can't remember, no 74, so you're right it was called Iran as opposed to Persia. Andy: Yes. closed. The reason for the change is because Persia was an exonym, which is a name given by an outside force. It was named Persia by the Greeks. But the people of the area had been using the name Iran as far back as 1000 BC. And in the 90s, Iranian leader Raza Shah took steps to make Iran the formal name of the country. Mark: Iran. Yeah. What a bloody ride. I mean, you know, I criticize, well, we criticize what's going on in America, though funnily enough, it's pretty similar. Think of the roller coaster ride that Iran has had. In our lifetime, Tehran was once the monocoque of the Middle East. People used to go there on, you know, like holiday. It was a luxury holiday destination, Tehran. Andy: Yeah. Mark: And so think of what's happened in the space of what, 50 years? Andy: Yeah, yep, it's definitely, I mean, it's not a great time to have been alive. I like the seventies. I like the eighties, the nineties. I don't remember a lot of it, but the last 20 odd years been shit to be honest. Mark: I wouldn't say shit, but I think it's not going to be remembered favorably in history. think the biggest thing that happened, know, post-Thatcher, funnily enough, was this inequality of wealth distribution just literally exploded. I mean, I can remember, literally, can remember friends of mine Andy: No. Mark: they were maybe three or four years older than me, who for instance went into banking and they were earning completely normal salaries. It was just like another job. ⁓ yes, you work on the stock market, you work in the bond market or whatever it was called in those days. You literally earned a normal salary and in our lifetime the disparity between what people in those industries and normal people earn has just literally exploded. I think that looking back in 50 or 100 years, people are going to be thinking what the hell was going on? Where was the justice in how this developed? And it all started with Maggie. Andy: Well, we know what was going on. We know what was going on. was the line, your pockets brigade. Mark: Hmm. No, it was, you're right. And you know, as I just said, I have to admit I was part of it. Andy: Okay, well, let's without further ado segue nicely into the line, your pockets brigade ⁓ of the internet. And we're to talk about the Manosphere. And what I hear many people ask is the Manosphere. ⁓ Well, there is a version of the internet that most people recognize and it's the surface layer, social media feeds, viral videos, trending topics, and the constant drum of content designed to entertain, inform or distract. But underneath that surface, there are Mark: Hang on. Sorry, I don't want to challenge you so early on. Those aren't the only three reasons that the Internet exists. To inform, to entertain and to... Andy: or distract. Mark: Yeah, but what we're going to talk about is none of those things. It is con. Andy: ⁓ no, but yes, but listen, I just said that was the surface layer. If you'd have let me start my next paragraph, you'll hear that beneath the surface, he's just dumb. It's just dumb. This guy, Andy, he's just dumb. So beneath the surface, there are the subcultures. Mark: ⁓ I see. You know, you know I'm a bit techy today. You Andy: entire ecosystems of ideas and identities that operate within their own rules, their own language and their own sense of reality. One of the most influential and controversial of these ecosystems is what has become known as the Manosphere. Over the past two decades, the Manosphere has grown from obscure message boards into a sprawling network of influences, communities and ideologies that reach millions of people. Now, its impact is especially pronounced amongst young men, many of whom encounter it while searching for answers about relationships, confidence, purpose and identity. Supporters frame it as a space for truth, self-improvement and male empowerment. Critics argue that it promotes misogyny, manipulation, and a deeply distorted view of the world. So this episode, I thought we'd have a look or make an attempt to understand it, not just what it is, but why it exists and why it's spread so effectively and also why it's become such a powerful force in modern culture. And thinking about it over the last couple of days, not the weekend, obviously. But since we spoke about doing this episode, it occurred to me that it's absolutely not a new thing. I don't know if you remember as vividly as I do, but the newspaper adverts in the 70s, in the 60s even, where there was a little cartoon strip of a skinny guy sitting on the beach and along comes the bully and kicks sand in his face. And then you were prompted to buy the Charles Atlas book. Mark: I remember that. That's right, yeah. Andy: And for a subscription, within three weeks, you could go back to that beach and kick the shit out of the bully. And that was basically what they showed in the cartoon strip. He went back and beat the bully up. You know, it's the same shit, except it was not digital. Mark: That's right, Charles Atlas bodybuilding. Yeah. I think we'll obviously cover it, but I think the biggest difference between now and the 70s is you said in your introduction that critics describe it as misogyny. I don't think it's the critics that describe it as misogyny. I think it's actually the proponents of this philosophy who just think misogyny is good. Andy: ⁓ yeah, but. Mark: That's the basis of their existence is that women are shite, basically. Andy: That is something that we will be covering as you can imagine. Mark: Yeah, sorry. Carry on. Carry on. Charles Atlas. I didn't do it, but I'll tell you what I did buy. Do you remember? Yeah, no, I didn't buy the gym. I bought the ball worker. Do you remember that? That sort of sprung tube? I've still got it. I bought it was when I was 16 or 17. It's still downstairs in my little room that I call a gym. Andy: Did you buy the chest expander? It's the same sort of thing. Yeah, it's like the reverse of the best expander. And you're still the weedy guy on the beach. Mark: No, I'm not actually Andy anymore. I tell you what, if I took my shirt off, you'd be quite surprised. Andy: ⁓ please don't do a Flanders on me. Ned Flanders. So the Manosphere isn't a single group and it's not an organization with a leader or even a unified doctrine. It's better understood as an ecosystem, very loosely connected, constantly evolving and internally very diverse. Within it, you can find several overlapping communities. There are the men's rights activists who I've got some sympathy with. They argue that men face systemic disadvantages in areas like family courts, education and mental health support. ⁓ There are pick-up artists who you should have some sympathy with. Mark: What's a pick-up artist in this context? Andy: someone who just goes out trying to lay as many chicks as possible. Mark: Now I see. Andy: who focus on strategies for attracting and seducing women, often presenting dating as a skill that can be learned and optimised. There are the red pill communities built around the idea that society hides uncomfortable truths about gender dynamics, truths that once revealed fundamentally change how men should approach relationships and life. Mark: And who was it who brought this red pill thing to light? Andy: That came from Matrix. Mark: That's right. So. Andy: It's red pill if you wanted to wake up. Mark: Exactly. ⁓ that's what it was, was it? The red pill to wake up. And what is, why is this Matrix film so important to so many? Why is it sort of an undertone? Andy: It's really not, it's just a metaphor. It's just a handy metaphor that somebody used once and it stopped. Mark: Yeah, but on Louis' documentary, what's this thing? What's that sign that they keep? ⁓ Andy: Again, that's probably something that was from The Matrix. I remember him doing it and I sort of registered it was from The Matrix. And it's like, you might as well have said it's from the Bible because they're both fantasy. Mark: Now, anyway. Andy: There are then one of your favourite groups, the incels, the involuntary celibates, who often express deep frustration and despair about their inability to form romantic or sexual relationships with anyone except their own mothers. And then there are the alpha male influencers. And I say that with my tongue very firmly in my cheek. figures who promote a lifestyle centered on dominance, wealth, discipline and control. Now these groups don't always agree with each other. In fact, they often conflict, but what they do share is a common thread. The belief that modern society has in some way failed men. And from that belief, everything else follows. So the Manosphere didn't emerge out of nowhere. It grew in response to real changes, economic, social and technological. And that reshaped how people live and how they relate to each other. And to understand this, you have to start with those conditions. For much of the 20th century, there was a relatively clear script for male identity in many parts of the world. It wasn't universal and it wasn't always fair. but it was recognisable. Get a stable job, earn enough to support a family, build a household, establish yourself as a provider. And that script has now become harder and more impossible to follow. As you said yourself, wages have stagnated in many sectors, job security has declined, housing costs are ridiculous. The timeline for traditional milestones, marriage, Home ownership, parenthood has shifted so much later or become inaccessible altogether. And for many men, this creates a sense of dissociation and dislocation. If your identity is tied to roles that are harder to fulfill, what replaces them? The Manosphere offers an answer. It reframes those struggles not as structural challenges or complex societal shifts, but as the result of cultural betrayal. At the same time, gender roles have also undergone significant transformation. Women have gained greater access to education, careers and financial independence. Social expectations have shifted. and relationships are less rigidly defined. And these changes have been broadly positive in terms of equality and opportunity, but they also disrupt older frameworks that some men relied on to understand their place in the world. And in that disruption, uncertainty grows and uncertainty is uncomfortable. The Manosphere steps in by replacing ⁓ ambiguity with certainty, often in the form of rigid, simplified rules about how men and women really behave. Another major factor is loneliness. Studies across multiple countries have shown rising levels of social isolation, particularly among young men. Fewer close friendships, less participation in community activities, reduced face-to-face interaction overall. Digital life has, in many ways, replaced physical community. The Manosphere doesn't just offer ideas, It offers belonging. It gives people a language to describe their experiences and a group that appears to understand them. And in many ways, this is also a result that can be attributed to the breakdown of the family unit and the single parent families. Because a lot of the people, probably more than 90 % of the people who are influenced by the Manosphere, You could probably definitely say they are definitely brought up by their mothers alone and have no father figure to guide them. Mark: Yeah, I don't know. ⁓ I wouldn't be able to make such a judgment, but certainly I would accept that is a pretty broad, broadly correct assumption that Andy: I mean, you saw it for yourself in the Louis Thoreau thing when the man with the real manly name HK Tiki Toki or HS Tiki Toki. He had his mum there and she not only scolded him for having a dirty floor, she made him clean it on camera. And he called her mummy. Not even just mum, he called her mummy. Mark: ⁓ yeah, so he had his mum there. Yeah. No he didn't. Really? Andy: It was, I felt embarrassed for the little twat because it just destroyed everything that he'd been building an aura of who he was and how he is. His mum just destroyed it with asking him why he didn't have a juice bar and making him clean his own floor. Mark: Hmm. ⁓ I think, you know, you're probably right, but what is indisputable is the common theme amongst all of those participants in that particular documentary was the complete opposite. The reality being the complete opposite of what they were promoting and that is they had such low self-esteem. and completely lacked any real confidence that required them to do the most horrible things to try and prove their manhood, when in fact it was pure evidence that in fact they were just feeble individuals. Andy: Yeah, they have. Yeah, they basically proved their manhood by tearing down weaker people, or people that they perceived were weaker people. Yeah. Mark: Yeah, which is the definition of a bully. Yeah, they were just bullies, basically. Which is a coward. You can't differentiate between the two. It is the same thing. A bully is a coward. Anyway, carry on. yeah, we've we've we'll let's assume they do come from a broken home situation without a father figure. Andy: Yes. So it gives people a language to describe their experiences and a group that appears to understand them. And that sense of connection can be incredibly powerful, especially for someone who feels invisible or misunderstood elsewhere. Perhaps the most important factor, and now we get there, is technological. Modern platforms are built around engagement. And the more time you spend watching, clicking, commenting and sharing, the more successful the platform is. And what drives engagement? Emotion. Content that makes you angry, or that provides anger, outrage, fear, or validation tends to spread further and faster than content that is neutral or nuanced, which is why we're not massive, because we are quite nuanced. A lot of... Mark: No, but long let it be that way, Andy, because to be honest, watching something like that documentary, I want absolutely no part of it. No interest. Andy: Yeah, but you you understand that at some point I'm going to have to start bullying you in every episode so that we can get some more views. The thing is, you won't even know that I'm doing it. That's the worst of it. Mark: You can try but you won't succeed. I am resolute. I think I might pick up even on the subtleties that you may try and introduce. No, but yeah, so anyways, yeah, carry on, carry on. Andy: Yeah. So the Manosphere content is often designed intentionally to trigger these emotions. A provocative claim about relationships or a bold statement about gender. ⁓ there's sort of shock tactics that you accuse me of sometimes, but obviously not to this extent. ⁓ or a clip that promises the truth that no one else will tell you. These are highly shareable and as a result, algorithms amplify them. Mark: Hmm. Andy: pushing users deeper and deeper into similar content. Over time, this can create a feedback loop where increasingly extreme cases and ideas become normalized. So most people don't start with extreme beliefs. They start with questions like how do I become more confident? Or why do I struggle with dating? Or how can I improve my life? And the Manosphere is very good at answering these questions, at least initially. Self-improvement. Mark: Hang on a second, when you say things like that, you've got to remember that people may not listen to the end of this production. And so when you say the Manosphere provides answers, I think at that stage, you've got to qualify it by saying quite often with absolute bollocks. Andy: I did say at least initially. Mark: Yeah, because the answers they provide are not answers, that is the point. It's just complete bollocks. Andy: But, you know, again, we are getting into that. Mark: Alright, good. Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. But if someone only listens to, no, no, no, if someone only listens to 10 minutes of this podcast, they might suddenly switch off and think that the Manosphere provides answers to a situation they may find themselves in. Andy: But thank you for preempting me. I think from the tone of the episode so far, but it's unlikely that they think we're supporters of the menace. Mark: You're- you're- You're right, carry on, sorry. Andy: But as a significant portion of Manisfia content does focus on self-improvement. It tells you to go to the gym, build discipline, earn more money, develop social skills. And on the surface, this advice isn't just reasonable, it's also beneficial. It gives people a sense of control. It provides structure and it produces visible results. And that's the hook. Because once someone trusts a source for practical advice, they're more likely to trust it for ideological guidance as well. And over time, the content often shifts. What begins as improve yourself becomes here's why you need to improve yourself. And that's where the worldview comes in. You'll start to hear claims about female nature. Hypergamy, social hierarchies. ⁓ Hypergamy. ⁓ I can't tell you off the top of my head. I sort of do know. Mark: Sorry, what's hypergoby? Hyperdemy, what's that? You don't know! Shall I get a definition while we're here? Andy: Yeah, I sort of do know I can't explain it. Mark: Alright, sorry, you gotta tell me how to spell it though. H Y P E R Andy: hyper h-b-e-r-g-a-m-y. ⁓ Mark: G-a-m-y It's definitely meaning here. We go. It's definitely a word. We've got that much hyper is the practice or instinctual inclination of marrying or dating a person of higher social and eat exactly. Yeah Gold digging Andy: I have stated. Yes. It's the four trying to marry a ten. That's hypergamy. Mark: There's actually a word to describe that. Andy: Why not? We've got words to describe everything. Do know there's a word to describe a three-fingered wank? Mark: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, only in your dictionary. Andy: It's still a word. Anyway, social hierarchies and the decline of traditional values. Mark: Is that all it takes three fingers, Andy? What are you, some sort of little pinprick? ⁓ Andy: ⁓ but one of them is up your bum. Mark: Yeah Andy: Very successful. Now these ideas are presented not as opinions, but as truths, often framed as scientific or evolutionary. I don't know if you're talking of scientific proof, did you see that fucking AI video that one of these women haters showed saying that ⁓ your girlfriend's ex's sperm is Mark: Yes, sperm. Andy: going to influence what your baby looks like. It's mad. And he said there is scientific evidence to prove it. Mark: But you see that was... Yes, and it was obviously an AI, you know, it could have been you or me who generated that text. No, you're right, it is because it was so obviously AI, but I'm sure we'll come back to it because obviously some people haven't seen it, but that that particular individual and the podcast or whatever streaming thing he did was like that thing that I got that you you recognized what what's what Andy: My AI is much better than that. Whatever. Mark: what the fuck, whatever, whatever. And they're basically, they were asking, can you name three countries? Andy: Yeah. It was. Yeah. I think that's where whatever probably got the idea from. They were a lot more extreme than whatever because he called one girl a useless fat tub of lard and told her to get off his show. Didn't they? He said, in fact, you disgust me. Get out. Mark: He was... Was he one of the worst? Andy: Yes, he was and he is one of the worst. Myron Moron something. Mark: Don't even give his name. Don't, no, don't even give his name. He's not, it's not worth it. But he was one of the worst. Andy: And he used to work for the Department of Homeland Security. If he'd stayed where he was, he would actually be in the cabinet. Mark: Yes. Yeah, but what was so illustrative was Louis Thoreau simply wanting to talk to his girlfriend and he was literally shaking. He was terrified that the whole illusion that he was giving out was in fact just complete, a complete facade. Andy: Yeah. Well, it was shown to be at the end of the show when ⁓ he had to admit that his girlfriend had actually left him. Mark: Of course. But you see, he was he was actually a perfect example of what I was. He is a weak minded, total lacking in any self confident failure of an individual. And however rich he gets, he's always going to be a failure. And it's comes out through every pore in his body. The fact that he has to get his girlfriend, not his girlfriend, who was the woman who selected these poor girls to appear on his show? Whatever. Andy: I continue. P.A. or whatever. Mark: that Thoreau was not allowed to talk to her. No, exactly, exactly. She was not allowed to talk to him. Why? Well, it's because she probably spends hours a day selecting poor individual girls who probably don't know how to name three different countries. It was just dreadful. That was really dreadful, that fellow. And as you say, used to work for Homeland Security. Andy: ⁓ she wasn't allowed to talk to him. Yeah. Yeah. So he would, he would have been well up with Trump. And that's another thing. All of these fucking wankers idolized Donald Trump. That in itself should give you a clue. There was one of them who was proud to say, yeah, ⁓ yeah, I've been in the room with Barron on more than three or four occasions at Mar-a-Lago. We're good friends. Mark: I mean, talk. That was actually an interesting case study because he was He wasn't going from a philosophical to an extent angle. He was just in it for the money. Andy: Yeah, but they all are. mean, at the end of the day, especially that ⁓ HS Winky Wanky, his income stream depends on him streaming live and having views. That's the way his platform is organized, that he has viewers. So he was literally streaming for seven, eight hours a day and the amount of viewers dictated how much money he made. Mark: Yes, and he was obviously the... Andy: But a lot of them, sell, he was also selling like, upgrades to get his gym, his gym workouts and then. Mark: Investment. Yep. Yep, and investment. That was the one Louis Thoreau put 500 quid into. Andy: Yeah, and lost the lot. But all of them, I mean, they're all designed to draw you in and get you to believe in their ethos. And then if you believe that they're going to help you get rich and confident, they're going to help you get rich even better by investing with you. Mark: Yeah, then start. Yeah, no, no, no, that's absolutely right. But it's funny that on the surface, they come across and promote misogyny. But the real, I say the real, the main victims of these people's scams are in fact men, because they're the ones who are paying for the upgraded app, gym supplements or whatever, and the investment. They are the people who are actually paying to support this character. Andy: Yeah. And when you see your 23 year old fucking guru showing off his new Lamborghini, doesn't it occur to you that you paid for that wing mirror? Mark: I know. No, it doesn't. It doesn't. That is what's so shocking that, you know, but the thing is that he ⁓ that particular fellow and ⁓ the other one in the States, they were targeting obviously very their demographic is very vulnerable people that poor they were interviewing those couple of guys that supposedly met on the street. ⁓ Andy: Yeah. Mark: and he was saying that he was basically homeless, this poor chap, and you can't get much more vulnerable than a homeless person, and yet I'm sure that as soon as he got $20 in his pocket from a day's work or whatever, exactly, exactly. Can you imagine how despicable an individual you have to be to take advantage of homeless people, desperate people, people with obviously loneliness issues, mental health issues? Andy: Kind of went into. Mark: They are your target demographic. What does that say about you as a person? Andy: It tells you you're fit for government. Mark: Yes, unfortunately. I mean that K Diddy P Wanky whatever his name was who literally who lit I mean I'm laughing but it was the saddest thing that when he posted a video of a girl giving him a blowjob he'd just met in a nightclub Andy: It's wanky. In a toilet, yeah. Mark: what sort of individual? Literally the lowest of the low. And he honestly thought that he was at success because he was earning $3,000 a day. He literally thought that he... Andy: To be honest, there was a story in the paper today about the lies of his business empires. So I wouldn't say, I wouldn't get on $3,000 today. Mark: Well, whatever. No, no, no. Maybe it's 30 quid a day. I don't care. But he thought he was a success. That was his measure of success. Not debasing himself and the girl giving him a blowjob, putting him in the lowest percentile of society in terms of value. He thought he was a success. Andy: What the thing is. Yeah, but unfortunately, the marker of their success is that they have to fucking explain it and convince everybody else of how successful they are. Mark: But they are, yeah, yeah. And those poor, I say poor girls, they were of course of normal age. They knew what they were doing to some extent. But again, what a sad reflection when they think as only fans, content providers or something, that if they get a thousand likes or a hundred million likes, that that is a measure of success. Andy: Yeah, unfortunately, we're going to find out in 10 or 20 years time exactly the damage that's been done to this generation. Mark: No, you're right, I think this is a very important subject, this manosphere thing, because I think you're exactly right. The number of people that are exposed to this sort of thing, it becomes sort of normal, and the price is going to be paid in 10 or 20 years' time. These people, at some stage, may be parents. Well, they were! That fellow, the Lamborghini-driving fellow, he had two daughters. Andy: God help that kid. God help that kid. Mark: He's boasting about having a wife, two daughters, a baby on the way and he was the one that came up with that term one-sided, one-way monogamy? The absurdity of the situation. So he would feel completely fine if one of his daughters was being sexually taken advantage of, or basically fucked, by someone of his attitude. But clearly not. Andy: Clearly not. It's only good for him. But anyway, let's let's come with this because I know. Have you? Mark: Anyway, yeah, yeah, carry on. Otherwise, it's going to take hours because we've already been going an hour and I've got a digger man coming in half an hour. Yeah. Andy: you're going to make me do a two-parter. Mark: No, no, no, no, no. Well, actually, I don't mind. I think it's a very important subject. But if we do a two-parter, both of them are going to be free. I think this one we want to do free, Andy. This is not a Patreon one. Yeah, exactly. And I think it needs to be. Andy: This is a free episode. If we do, if we do a part two, we have to do it before Sunday so I can put them both out on the same day. Mark: ⁓ I see. Yes, you can do that. Sorry, before Sunday. Andy: Yeah. Yeah. Preferably today. So I've got time for editing and. Mark: Well why can't we do it tomorrow, hang on. God damn it. Andy: Well, we can do it tomorrow, but early, please. Mark: The 20th. Friday the 20th. Andy: Yes. Mark: Yeah, I think I can do that. We can do it at eight o'clock. All right. Andy: Okay, that's perfect. In that case then, we will call an end to part one, but don't panic everyone because part two will be available exactly at the moment that you finished this part one. And we'll pick it up where we left off first thing tomorrow. Yeah, I'm going to have to put a stop to this ranting and there's only one rander on this show. The same with the comedian. Mark: with Mark Renting. Well, you can bear in mind that tomorrow we don't have to go on the Trump rant again. can we can work. What's that? We don't know. No, you're right, actually. No, but I feel very strongly about it. I do. I feel very strongly about it because I've even in in our social circle, admittedly, it was a couple of years ago. ⁓ Andy: You don't know what he's going to do today yet. don't know what he's going to do today. Can't bear him mum. We're coming up on a weekend. Mark: One of our friends was relating a story of their 15 year old son who actually watched this sort of thing and he was just about to have sex for the first time and the way he was describing what he was going to do to the girl was pretty shocking. Andy: Strangulation, no doubt. Mark: No, no, no, it wasn't that bad. But I mean, you know, it was just what he thought girls expected. And it was just terrible. It was to the mother. And I was saying, well, hopefully you put him straight. Andy: RIP it up a shit-a. I need details now. Mark: No, but I'll tell you, we'll pick it up tomorrow. Andy: Can you tell me and then I promise not to tell anyone. I'll tell you all. I will tell you all. Mark: No, but seriously, it is a major issue in this Louie Thoreau documentary. Obviously, it's going, it's becoming so mainstream, mainstream, mainstream, and it's so toxic. Amongst everything else that's going on in the world, what we don't need are these lunatics thinking that women are worth anything less than a man. Anyway. Andy: Yeah. Well, we shall continue with this on our tomorrow, but it's for the same day for everybody else who's listening today. So we're just taking a break. You can go straight into the next episode. There's no point in me saying have a good week because it's the same bloody week. Just before you start the next episode, don't do any menace stuff about as much as I can say. So we'll see you in about five minutes. Bye for now. Mark: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, it's the same day. No, exactly. Yeah, Yeah. Bye for now.