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Craig Perra - Strength Over Disease: Challenging Traditional Models of Pornography Addiction Recovery · The Virtual Couch

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  Music.
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  Hey everybody, welcome to the virtual couch episode 382. I am your host Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist,
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  Certified mindful habit coach writer speaker and creator of the path back which we're gonna talk a little bit more about today in some detail,
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  but before I I really get started it is I just want to make my listeners aware that it is with a,
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  Very heavy heart that I share that my my friend and my colleague Shawna Roberts
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  who I had on the virtual couch a couple of times very early on, and then, if you're
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  a regular listener, I re-ran an episode with her just a few weeks ago. Unfortunately, she
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  did pass away on June 2nd, and my heart really does go out to her entire family, her friends,
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  former colleagues. I've been in touch with a few of my colleagues, and it truly just
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  doesn't feel real. I received some amazing feedback from the episode with Shauna, so,
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  if you could just keep her family in your thoughts and in your prayers, I know that
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  that would be greatly appreciated.
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  And on that note, today I happen to be talking with a friend of mine, Craig Parra.
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  And ironically, it really was Shauna who introduced Craig and I, I think it was over 10 years
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  ago and actually more than 10 years ago.
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  And Craig is the creator of The Mindful Habit, which is a strength-based model to overcome
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  any, and I mean any, addictive behavior or unhealthy coping mechanism.
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  And Craig was absolutely instrumental in the creation of The Path Back, which is my faith-based,
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  online pornography recovery program, become the person who you always wanted to be.
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  So I really do owe it to Shauna, who put me in touch with Craig.
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  And as you'll hear in the interview today, I didn't even realize at the time that Craig's
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  methods of treating addiction were ahead of their time.
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  And it was Shauna who would talk about Craig in some of our staff meetings.
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  And finally, I feel like it was one of those moments where I felt like, fine, I'll meet the guy.
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  And I'm really glad that I did. So when I think of Craig, I think of Shauna, and I'm just truly grateful for the introduction
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  that she made between the two of us.
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  So if you then fast forward the decade or more, Craig and I have now both worked with and helped
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  well over a thousand people overcome turning to pornography as an unhealthy coping mechanism.
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  But more importantly, Craig's mindful habit system, which again is the foundation of my path
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  back, is something that I have integrated into my therapy practice and it works. So I do want to
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  encourage you to listen to the end. Craig and I tell what I think is one of the funniest stories
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  of all time of an event that Shauna and then my other colleagues at the time, Jamie and Shelley,
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  were a part of where we brought Craig in to, I guess, in essence, disrupt an establishment,
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  really shake things up and have people start talking about the healthy, the right way to
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  talk about overcoming pornography addiction or turning to pornography as an unhealthy coping
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  mechanism with a group of very orthodox religious leaders. And then I guess somewhat hilarity
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  ensued. So that story is toward the end and then I'm going to make an offer at the end of the show
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  for the Path Back because it works. You can go to pathbackrecovery.com but listen in today because
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  I'm going to talk more about why it works and Craig and I are going to go into depth about
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  his methods, his models, some of the things that he went through that led him to the creation of
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  the Path Back or creation of the mindful habit which then led me to the creation of the Path
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  Back and Craig is absolutely changing lives for the better. So with that said, let me get to my
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  interview with my good friend and the creator of The Mindful Habit, Craig Parra.
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  Music.
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  Craig Parra, welcome to the virtual couch. And what is the most frustrating thing here is,
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  of course, we go way back. I could tell stories for days. Craig's been an incredible influence
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  in my life for good. But then we did a recording, it was early in the pandemic, right? And then I
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  I have been unable to locate those files.
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  Those are the lost tapes. The lost tapes, where we solved all of the world's problems.
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  Every problem was solved, and that was so frustrating.
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  We were so kind of like, hey, when's that coming out? And I would say, oh, I just got your text.
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  Let me get back to you. And I would look through everything.
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  And I do think I found the hard drive that it resides on, but now it seems to have disappeared again.
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  So maybe it's just not meant to be.
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  Maybe we have to re-solve all the problems.
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  We are back with a vengeance today. Yeah, so Craig, can you maybe even talk about,
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  tell us who you are, and then I will probably have already sang some of your praises in an intro
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  before we jumped into this interview, but talk about who you are.
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  I mean, you are a dynamic, amazing person.
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  You take it from me.
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  Thank you, thank you. Privileged and blessed to be here, Tony.
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  So my name is Craig Parra.
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  I'm the founder of the Mindful Habit System. And Craig, and I won't do this every time,
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  but people that listen to mine, Now, just listen to what I say every single time as I say.
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  Hey, everybody, I'm Tony Overbay, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified mindful
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  habit coach. That is the next lines out of my mouth intentionally for the last seven years.
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  So this is why this is so important, because Craig's mindful habit system is what I am a
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  certified coach of, and it has changed everything. All right, back to you, Craig.
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  Thank you. Thank you. And so basically, I got to where I'm at now, Tony, as you know,
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  through a life of profound and colossal failure. I have sunk to deep, deep lows despite being
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  executive, being an attorney, on the outside having everything that I should be blessed to
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  have a beautiful wife and a beautiful children. But I had a dark side. I had a disease. I had a
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  demon, a darkness in me that would continually lead me back to compulsive pornography,
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  compulsive sexual behavior, rock bottom after rock bottom.
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  And it was the rock bottom 13 years ago after getting fired from my second job
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  where I had this epiphany. And I said, wait a minute.
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  I think that I can build a better mousetrap that's not right for everybody, but that's right for some people that
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  needs the things that I needed.
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  And over time, this system, this modality came to be.
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  And it's, you know, where it is now.
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  Well, how, when you talk about that, that rock bottom after rock bottom,
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  were you just doing the classic, okay, no, this time I get it.
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  And you know, that, that alleviates my discomfort and I will go and send no more.
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  Would you, or would, did you just feel like, no, it's inevitable this is going to happen again? Or what was that?
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  No, every, the, every evolution was a pinnacle, a realization where my therapist and I were able
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  to get to a deeper place of understanding regarding my childhood trauma and the events
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  that from my past impacted me today. So, we'd have these epiphany moments and we would all
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  celebrate those epiphany moments and they're worthy of celebration. Let me be abundantly
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  clear about that. However, I've learned that they don't produce permanent change.
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  Okay. And it was that- How long would that, would the shelf, I mean, sometimes I talk about that as a shelf life,
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  right?
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  How long was your shelf life? Would it last weeks, months? 10 years.
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  Wow. There's a 10 year, approximately a 10 year cycle. I'm in it right now, guys, by the way.
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  So let's keep me on the straight and narrow and, you know, Michelle and I are acutely
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  aware of the anniversaries. Close.
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  It's not perfect, but it's close. Yeah, that was I was able to contain it stuff it down for 10 years. I would grow I would thrive
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  I'd get a better job. I would continue to be a colossal failure in my marriage and eventually.
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  The bad habits resurfaced and I found myself.
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  Back again to these terribly low self-destructive places. Okay. And so then when you got to talk about the creation of then the mindful habit system,
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  I mean, what led to that? Was it this anchoring off of one thing? Did you have a lot of pieces
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  all come together at the same time? A lot of pieces came together at the
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  same time. So one, at this low point, I found a therapist who did not subscribe to the sex
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  addiction is a disease or sex is even an addiction reality. His name is George Collins. He wrote
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  the book Breaking the Cycle. And so I saw this guy who was teaching me things about mindfulness
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  tools to do something about it versus, you know, like trying to get to this place,
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  and was focused on also he's the one who introduced me to parts work.
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  And this recognition, this reality that has become the foundation of everything that almost
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  I do and live and say and teach is this reality that we have these different parts in us.
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  And there's literally a medical framework, a neurologically supported framework, a spiritual framework.
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  You know, when we talk about the Path Back, I believe is really the only program in the
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  world right now that is providing clients with that union of faith and science, because
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  there's a beautiful place where it emerges that so many people don't know about.
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  And I'm just really blessed and privileged to be spreading that message.
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  So I hit that rock bottom.
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  The therapist saw a gift in me, said, you should do this for a living.
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  And I had all this executive training, had all this leadership training.
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  Part of my job was to train employees on compliance matters.
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  I was the chief risk management person in a billion dollar company.
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  But wasn't applying any of these skills to sets to myself. And so this concept of a curriculum came in a training, continued to evolve and evolve
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  and you know, to where when I'm working with someone now, yeah, we're a little flexible,
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  but this is my solution.
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  This is my path that, you know, if you're a fit, great, if not, let's help you figure
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  out why. But that's...
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  Well, and I love that. Maybe a quick question before we pick up with you and I getting together.
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  I like how you said you then ended up working with a therapist that didn't subscribe to
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  what the disease-based model.
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  Yes. So, can you elaborate? Because these are the things that people hear me talk about the path back constantly.
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  The path back is formed off of Craig's mindful habit system.
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  It's Craig's system that then just opened my eyes because of this curriculum.
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  And it is a strength-based system.
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  And boy, talking about the I didn't know what I didn't know, I say that phrase so often.
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  But what I didn't even realize was what the alternative treatments were out there.
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  So it's funny, when I ran into Craig, it just made sense and it was such a fit.
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  And so then we started talking about, I wanted to build a program, Craig had this program,
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  I wanted to introduce the faith component, and it just was so easy and natural to do
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  that then over the years, that's where I've learned more about people coming in and continually
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  saying, where's the part where I shame myself?
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  Like when do I have to beat myself up?
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  So talk about, did you go through those periods of your recovery where you were working in
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  that disease-based model or the beat yourself up model? What was that like?
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  Yeah. Yeah. Well, I first want to say that what a blessing that there is a place where anybody, no matter
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  how rich or how poor can get support and embrace the powerful community of a 12-step meeting.
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  So I want to start with that. And second, I want to say different strokes for different folks.
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  There are people who thrive in that model.
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  Just like there are some people who do well with this allergy medication and some people
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  do well with this other allergy medication.
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  Same principles apply. So I want to say that.
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  For me, the disease-ification of that part of me, the declaration that I am a, I am a
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  Sex addict. I am a porn addict.
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  There's a whole school of thought that suggests that that Identification is harmful and has you anchored to a negative?
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  Sexuality and has you anchored tethered to your worst self instead of creating healthy?
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  Sexuality feeding the right wolf changing your relationship with your addict
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  So that's what it did for me kept me anchored and I didn't connect with the concept of surrendering
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  I didn't connect with the concept of being powerless.
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  I wanted a path. I wanted a path. Yeah. There's a concept that I love this quote that sometimes, and I won't get it perfect,
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  but it's that one of the strongest forces in human nature is to return back to the place
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  that you call home base. So, if you start from, I'm an addict, then you may have months or years
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  of, but I'm doing well, but then it's like, ah, but don't forget I'm an addict. And so,
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  then I'm eventually going to return back to that home of where I started. And so, when I talk about
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  the path back, if somebody's saying, okay, I'm a powerful person, or I am a child of God, or I am a
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  person who continually grows and learns, then that's who I am. And I may have a setback every
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  now and again, but then, but at my core, I'm somebody who does and thrives and is. I love
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  that because if it's, I'm an addict, it's like, I could be doing well, but somebody's there behind
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  me to say, don't get thinking you're too well, because don't forget, you're an addict. And I,
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  just feel like that takes the wind out of the whole sail. Well, let's flip it and lead with
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  the positive. The value that people get in identifying with this as a disease is
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  is that this is something they have to treat forever.
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  This is something they have to treat forever like a diabetic who has that disease has to do insulin,
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  And I completely get that perspective. The problem is though for a lot of people they stop at sobriety,
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  Okay Yes sobriety I propose is less than 20.
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  Of the solution It is a teeny tiny in the big, big, big spectrum, not doing something.
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  Of course that's an important component of your identity that prioritizes sexual health
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  and strives to have their thoughts and feelings aligned with their moral compass.
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  Like that's a great, great, great destination. But you know what I'm saying?
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  Oh, Craig, this is the part that again, I didn't even know that wasn't a thing.
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  That people weren't saying, okay, now what?
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  And so what I loved about the mindful habit system and what's such a big component of the path back
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  is it's like, yeah, even the recovery or if somebody does have a setback or a slip up
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  or whatever we wanna call it,
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  that's a tiny piece of the, but as you become a better fill in the blank husband,
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  father, man of God, you know, you like your job, you're in touch with your health,
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  that then that siren song of addiction is just this little tiny piece of thing
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  that is there from time to time.
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  But it's not that I have to remember it always.
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  I want somebody to start to just be and do, be a better person, do things that matter.
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  And then over time, that's what it feels like to be them.
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  And so when people come into the Path Back, it's typically in our group calls,
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  there's somebody that will start off by saying, I know I'm an addict, but I'm kind of curious
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  how long until I won't continually feel this way all the time.
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  But again, I know I'm an addict.
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  It's like that, and it's like, oh boy, bless their heart.
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  But they're not even, I feel like they're not even asking the right question at that point,
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  because you get a year or so down the road now you're doing and being better and more.
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  And then it's, oh, I'm actually good and I'm doing more. And then every now and again, there's a part of me
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  that then I can take a look at and review the game film, don't beat myself up, that sort of thing.
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  It's a clear anchoring.
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  To shame. Because he was inspired to say, listen, I know I'm still an addict, but there was something
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  that he had to acknowledge. And one of the things I learned, Tony, and listen, we've got well-intentioned
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  people trying to help people, using a framework, that they were trained, and there's something
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  natural about it. Obviously, there's a compulsive component to this. There's an agency and control
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  issue, but as we know, it's so, so, so much deeper. And when you are looking at the complex,
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  let's just say intimacy issues between a husband and a wife, and using the narrow prism of the
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  only tool you have, sex addiction and porn addiction, it does the client a disservice,
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  it does their relationship a disservice, it does their solutions a disservice. It's too
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  narrow of a lens to move you beyond not doing something.
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  Yeah. I love that. Move you beyond not doing. Now that I'm not doing, am I done? And I feel
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  like that's what people do and then it, because then it eases that discomfort and they feel like
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  I'm good now. But if the whole model is about becoming, then I'm going to continue to become.
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  And then that becomes like what it feels like to be me based off of all the residue of lived
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  experiences, I'm doing more, I'm becoming better, I'm just being and doing. And this is where I...
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  It's funny now, Craig, I think about this. You were a mindfulness guru well before I even
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  embraced the process. You were doing yoga much before I was even trying to do any yoga. And I
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  used to hear you get into the rhythm of talking about mindfulness and being and noticing thoughts
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  and all these things. And I'd say, okay, all right, that's nice, Craig. And now I find that
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  my favorite sessions are when I'm talking with somebody that they're well under this path of
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  becoming. And then I sometimes hear ourselves talking and think, oh, that's what Craig was talking about.
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  Yes, yes. Well, because there is a body component. So, we are treating a physiological condition.
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  And we've been conditioned to think about it, and it is a spiritual one, an emotional one.
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  All of that exists within the framework of the body. And so, you know, taking care of yourself,
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  regulating your sugar, carbs, you know, not doing things that directly impact agency and control,
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  getting a good night's sleep, like all those things are so critically important.
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  But you know, I'll use an example. When I was working.
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  And listen, I'm not blaming, I'm not blaming, I'm saying that someone like me needed a kick
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  in the ass and say, hey, you're 260 pounds, buddy. How you think you're going to control
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  yourself eating those three big meals a day like a horse?
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  Yeah. Well, and I love that you, I mean, if you're listening to the audio, go watch the
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  video and look at Craig. And I still can't even imagine Craig at 260 pounds. But I appreciate
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  that you speak from so much experience of what you felt like, what you were doing,
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  the experiences that you tried to do. And so often, I just want to tell somebody,
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  man, if they're continuing to use the same tool over and over and expecting different results,
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  and that tool may work great for somebody else. But if it doesn't, then, hey, try a different
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  tool. And you are a person that literally tried that version for a long time. And now look at you,
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  you're not 260 pounds, my friend. And I only learned about the concepts of almond flour
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  by eating cookies made in your home. You know?
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  Love it. Love it. Glycemic index and emotional regulation Your central nervous system and just so we can put in perspective what we're dealing with because I think sometimes we lose sight
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  And and our men do a terrible job explaining this to their partners because they've been lying about it for so long.
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  The habit that we are talking about is Is literally the oldest I'm gonna give you two criterias the oldest and most,
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  impactful habit in a boy's man's life in the habit is this.
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  Using sexual pleasure to Feel good when there's pain and hide it and hide it. There's two criteria
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  So so it the act of pleasure and hiding it,
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  That is with the two oldest there's other habits that are older But when you add that most more impactful one,
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  When you literally get back to the organism pleasure and pain don't do that. Stop put that away,
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  What do you think you're doing?
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  You're sick pervert all that conditioning and all that training and you know
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  I'll sometimes hear on one of my partner calls a partner will ask, you know, how could he lie to me?
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  And I say, give me grace right now, because I'm going to say something that's going to
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  come out a little strange, but I want to argue this point to help you.
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  How could he not?
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  How could he not? And listen, we weren't honest with our wives about that conditioning and training.
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  And so many guys like, oh, it's no big deal, right?
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  Because they start with the, it's no big deal. Because that's how it starts, right?
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  Oh, fine, when they finally admit it and they get caught doing it, first it's no big deal.
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  Well, but if it's no big deal, then you should be able to stop.
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  I mean, for your wife's sake, right? Is it worth it? Is it worth it? Is it really?
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  Now listen, if it is, God bless. You do you.
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  But is it worth that pain and suffering? No, it isn't. OK, it isn't.
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  But it's such a powerful reward. And it's so deeply entrenched into our numbing, coping, and escaping, our fear management.
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  Our addict part has been performing an incredibly important regulatory,
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  emotional and physical regulatory job for decades.
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  Dr. Justin Marchegiani Craig, I want you to jump into that. I want you to talk and I want you to preach internal family systems and it is so good. I so enjoy
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  talking to you anytime because I even I that what you just said there, I just learned where it is
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  that pleasure and then hide it. And so in psychology, we throw that in a relational frame. And
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  before you know it, the brain's gonna say, Okay, let's put those two together. Let's skip a few
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  steps. Let's burn a few less emotional calories. So pleasure comes with shame or pleasure comes
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  comes with Heidi. And that makes so much sense. So then, yeah. So then, so maybe I would love
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  for you to talk a little bit about that internal family system, the parts. Because this is
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  when I started doing, you know, teaching the Path Back and it's based off of the mindful
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  habit and there's a part in there about personifying your sub personality. And that's one of the
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  first modules in the Path Back where people will report back and say, I'm kind of blown
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  away, you know, having the discussion with the addict. Can you talk about that? And let
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  Let me say, I have so many therapists that listen, which I'm so grateful for.
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  But Craig, I would love for you to give your background and credentials even around what
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  you've done with internal family systems, because that is a very, very solid theoretical
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  principle or therapeutic principle that I do not know enough about, and I would love to learn more.
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  Yeah. I believe the future gold standard for doing something, so far it has been approved as
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  a certified evidence-based treatment modality for physical pain, rheumatoid arthritis.
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  So they wanted to go big, right? They didn't go big into some of the psychological issues,
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  which are very important.
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  They went for the physical pain, mission accomplished, in an amazing framework.
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  And look, before we even get to the model, I want the people listening.
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  Don't you feel like there's a part of you
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  that takes over, says stupid things, does dumb, gets defensive with his wife, angry,
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  the part that lies, the part that sneaks,
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  part that high, right? Yeah. And clients come in the session, you know, oh, it feels like a part
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  of me. So that natural connection that you have to that reality is supported by the modular theory
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  of the mind, which has been discussed in Peter Levine's book on trauma, the book No Bad Parts
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  by Dr. Richard Schwartz, the Pixar movie Inside Out, which recognizes that we have these different
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  parts inside us, and these parts have different jobs. And those jobs that they do were trained.
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  So there's an, for sex and porn addiction, there's an addict part.
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  There's a shame, low self-esteem part. There's a liar part.
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  There's a part that resents the resentment and control onto his wife. Those are the parts typically that we focus on in round one,
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  These part let's take the liar part, right? How damaging how detrimental literally?
• 24:47
  Rocking the foundation of the relationship And that liar part is serving a protective capacity.
• 24:55
  Yes That liar part is meeting needs in the brain and in the body. It's keeping him safe,
• 25:04
  So he doesn't get in trouble so he doesn't upset the other person and be rejected or abandoned,
• 25:11
  So this liar part that is causing so much damage so much impact like the addict part when you put,
• 25:20
  Traditional therapy and take a family of origin analysis and drop that into the origin story of the part. Yeah.
• 25:28
  Where did that part come from? Why is that the default reaction? Why those automatic thoughts why that feeling in the body?
• 25:36
  Well now you've got an incredible data set that provides, you know You personally doing your own work, but your client like it changes the way you look at that attic part.
• 25:47
  My attic part, I love my attic part.
• 25:51
  My attic part kept me alive, Tony, when I was at my lowest places and getting fired
• 25:56
  and doing drugs and out of integrity. I needed an escape, it gave me that escape.
• 26:00
  Now, it ultimately almost killed me.
• 26:03
  But as a child, through some of my experiences, I had this safe place, this safe place with this magazine,
• 26:11
  this safe place with my body that I had control over, I was doing something for me. And so, that addict that you've been demonizing, that you've been
• 26:20
  disease-ifying, actually should be the target of your agape love, unconditional love,
• 26:29
  Holy Spirit to part love. And that's a completely different framework than, I am an addict.
• 26:36
  It is, Craig. Man, I so enjoy hearing you. I can say nothing more than this. Preach and teach,
• 26:42
  But the little I know about internal family systems, you just said it so well, it's like
• 26:46
  there's this exiled emotion and here comes the protector. And I love the way you frame that,
• 26:51
  right? So that addict is protecting that exiled emotion of what? Of shame, of pain, of pain.
• 26:56
  Pain.
• 26:57
  Yeah. Discomfort, abandonment. Yeah.
• 27:00
  Yeah. rejection, sadness, frustration.
• 27:07
  And it's meeting those needs. And it's been meeting those needs for many. And then you
• 27:13
  get into the sex addiction component of it, where guys are being unfaithful. It's not the sex,
• 27:18
  it's the significance. It's the significance. There's always a sexual component, but it's
• 27:24
  always secondary to the self-esteem, which is true with the porn too. It's always,
• 27:30
  the behavior is always secondary. And the parts work. There's one comment on what the parts work
• 27:37
  does it isn't a once and done. It gives you, the addict, a framework to manage your internal
• 27:46
  family system. So it is a, now I've got tools. I do have this addict part. I do have this part
• 27:54
  that feels like an absolute worthless POS when I make a mistake, when I let someone down,
• 28:01
  when I say the wrong thing, when I embellish and told someone I met Steve Harvey when I didn't,
• 28:07
  We were on the same stage. I met him from 20 feet away.
• 28:11
  Right? And I corrected that. That embellished that lie. We'll call it what it is.
• 28:15
  So I have this part, and no matter what I've been able to do, I have not prevented that part from awakening because that is life. Those are my challenges with
• 28:24
  with medical problems, life problems,
• 28:27
  there will be challenges and these parts will awaken.
• 28:30
  And what the Path Back gives your clients is a science-based spiritual framework to
• 28:38
  manage and love those parts going forward. And there's no program in the world that does that
• 28:42
  today. None. I speak with confidence because I know them.
• 28:46
  Exactly, right? And that's where I so appreciate because the science meets spirituality does seem
• 28:52
  for so many that they can't live in the same world. But what you just said there,
• 28:55
  when I can have in my world, if we're all a child of God and we're all here with our own
• 28:59
  God-given talents and abilities, and we're supposed to tap into those gifts and let our
• 29:03
  light so shine, that now we're never going to get to that if we're still letting that.
• 29:08
  That we're shaming or, I don't know, demonizing that protector, that, you know, that...
• 29:13
  That part of themselves. Yeah, yeah.
• 29:15
  And so, there's a wonderful book for those maybe who aren't ready to join the path back
• 29:22
  and want to understand the framework. The name of the book is called All Together You
• 29:26
  by Jenna Remersma, R-I-E-M-E-R-S-M-A. We'll put the link, but basically that is the only book on
• 29:37
  internal family systems in Christianity. And what she does in that book and things that we've talked
• 29:44
  about, Tony, because I've just got so many incredible mind-blowing ideas to be more deliberate
• 29:51
  around this Holy Spirit to part relationship or shepherd to sheep relationship. There's so much
• 29:59
  spiritual support for that relationship. And science, it's a magical union that I'm really
• 30:07
  blessed at your path. Bad guys get it, and that we're going to continue to talk about it and
• 30:12
  share it because it's, as you said, when your clients realize it, it's mind-blowing.
• 30:19
  Yeah, it is. So what are you working on these days in general? Because I mean, you, you develop the mindful habit system. You've got, you're still doing work with couples, individuals. But I mean, I feel like when you get this internal family systems training, and you and I hadn't touched base for a little bit, but I had no idea that you again, it kind of goes back to that just because you got the mindful habit piece figured out doesn't mean you're done. So what kind of, what kind of drives you now? And I'm not trying to just do some sales pitch for and I think my listeners will know that.
• 30:47
  My listeners will know that, but you've done so much work
• 30:50
  with that, and I feel like that concept alone is what I love, is that you've gotta continue to be
• 30:54
  and do in order to, I don't know, to feel like you're connected to life and have a sense of purpose.
• 31:00
  Well, it's my purpose. This is my life. I love helping people crack that code.
• 31:06
  I love giving people a framework that literally alters the trajectory of their lives and has them happier
• 31:13
  and more kind and more loving and more productive and more successful and healthier.
• 31:17
  The mindful habit system
• 31:22
  When I discovered IFS, I just said it was at first I was like, well, how did I not know about this?
• 31:29
  Because I've been I've been doing parts work for so many years. I find this model. I immediately
• 31:34
  sign up to take the level one training. It takes me three years to get in. The backlog is even
• 31:39
  longer now. They're not reducing their standards. It is an intense training, by far one of the most,
• 31:44
  intense, like a graduate level law school class kind of intensity. It was so, so powerful. And
• 31:51
  And I saw there was this merge, there was this union
• 31:54
  between the two models and the practical of the mindful habit combined with the internal family systems model
• 32:01
  has really contributed to the framework that I use to help clients understand their parts,
• 32:09
  heal their parts, connect with their parts,
• 32:12
  love their parts and build a framework for going forward.
• 32:15
  It's been absolutely brilliant.
• 32:17
  I'm so excited to do the therapist training coming up that we've talked about.
• 32:23
  It's gonna be epic and it's gonna be so cool to provide therapists with,
• 32:28
  one, everybody wants to know about IFS, so I'm gonna help with that too,
• 32:32
  but more than that, incorporating that into a model that you can use with any client struggling
• 32:38
  with any compulsive behavior because it's all a broken reward system.
• 32:45
  It's all the same behavior meeting needs.
• 32:48
  Well, can I tell you what I like about that too? And if we're okay to, let's go down this path a little bit,
• 32:53
  because I love this concept of as a therapist, you really are not schooled in telling someone what to do.
• 32:59
  As a matter of fact, it almost feels like you, well, it does.
• 33:02
  It feels like you're going against everything that you've trained.
• 33:05
  But yet you can sit there and have the best tools and you're trying to walk that person
• 33:10
  to a place of accountability or acceptance. And now we can really do some good work.
• 33:15
  And then it's almost like you develop this relationship where if you start to then offer solutions, then I always say you get the yeah buts.
• 33:22
  And so then it's like, okay, I'll back off. We're going to go back to empathy and try to get to the
• 33:26
  understanding and tell me more. And it wasn't, even when I was working with you, when we were
• 33:31
  developing the PathBack system, I think that that's, I didn't even know at that time of why
• 33:36
  that was so difficult even for me, because I still felt like, oh, I'm telling people what to do.
• 33:40
  And I can't do that. You know, fast forward a few years and now I love the fact that it's like,
• 33:45
  Oh, I know it works. I know it works. So I feel confident enough to say this is what one needs to do,
• 33:50
  But then I also feel like and then if it when that doesn't come naturally,
• 33:55
  now tell me more and so I Felt like there's this there's a need for,
• 33:59
  The therapist and the coach piece and yes, and I don't know if you're familiar
• 34:03
  I'd love to know from your end as a coach and you've got your professional training as an attorney
• 34:08
  Uh, you've got your level one certification with ifs,
• 34:11
  but do you feel a little bit of that distance from therapists and coach?
• 34:16
  The distance between therapist and coach. Well, what I'm learning in the therapist that I talk to
• 34:21
  is they want more tools and they're looking at coaches and say, wait a minute, you're charging what?
• 34:28
  You're working with clients beyond the state border. You're not have to dealing
• 34:33
  with any of the regulatory requirements. You're not the same ethical, yeah, exactly.
• 34:37
  Your professional insurance costs hundreds of dollars where mine costs thousands of dollars
• 34:42
  and you're the one who can make the bigger mess than me because you're not even a trained coach,
• 34:47
  so, but we're gonna make my insurance more, so that's okay.
• 34:50
  And so, and, you know, their clients are talking about coaching, so they're curious.
• 34:55
  And so, there is an evolution that goes, and let's take the traditional therapist,
• 35:01
  a blank slate who says nothing, who sits in the chair and says, what else?
• 35:05
  I'm a mirror, I'm a reflection. If they even say, yeah, what do you think?
• 35:08
  I'm like, well, tell me why that's important for you.
• 35:10
  You know, we'll bring that up, we'll discuss that. And what the therapists are learning is that,
• 35:16
  wait, when I do happen to really connect with a client, that therapeutic alliance is stronger.
• 35:22
  And there are people that I do better with. And when I work with those better people,
• 35:26
  when I do this, this, and this, and this, and provide them with those tools
• 35:30
  and give them that structure, they thrive.
• 35:33
  Well, okay, so here's, and I've never got to really talk through this, Craig,
• 35:36
  and that's why I was excited about what we're gonna create here with the.
• 35:40
  You know, the therapist coach union is, So now, if we go back to the part where people get their sense of self through external validation,
• 35:47
  I mean, that's as children, but that's where I feel if somebody has turned to unhealthy
• 35:51
  coping mechanisms, it's a given at that point that they did not feel like they could just
• 35:56
  be, you know, they did not have that secure attachment with their parent.
• 35:59
  So they were trying to manage other people's emotions.
• 36:02
  If they got angry, then they were going to hear about it. If they got really excited, they couldn't count on having that support from a parent.
• 36:09
  And this is from a bless their parents' heart. Maybe their parent was overworked.
• 36:11
  Maybe the parent had too many kids. Maybe their parent was saying,
• 36:14
  hey, as long as we just pray and read our scriptures, the rest will happen.
• 36:16
  All of it's to bless their heart. But now we know that, okay, here's an adult human being
• 36:21
  that truly never got that external validation.
• 36:24
  And so some of the work I've done with people is they do now become unburdened from,
• 36:30
  I know now that every time I try to show up and get that validation from a parent,
• 36:34
  the dad issues, the mom issues, that then that comes back to bite me
• 36:38
  and I go back to the what's wrong with me
• 36:39
  and then I turn to unhealthy coping mechanism.
• 36:41
  So I even feel like I can get somebody to that place where they realize now, I am me,
• 36:45
  I can do and think the things I wanna do and think.
• 36:49
  And then they still look over and say, so now what do I do?
• 36:51
  Right, and I say, oh, what an opportunity to you go and do. And then they're like, oh, okay, that feels,
• 36:58
  again, that feels good.
• 36:59
  So like, should I do this thing?
• 37:01
  And I feel like he's a therapist, I'm like, I...
• 37:04
  I that is not my job, but you're trying to sell them on. You now get to go find that.
• 37:09
  And again, it feels cool until then. And I started to really realize they still need a
• 37:14
  little bit of that external validation, but who do you trust? And now if you've built up that
• 37:19
  therapeutic alliance, then I've been chomping at the bit to say, I would love to play this role
• 37:25
  a little bit right now. And it's not, I'm not trying to manipulate you. I'm not trying to
• 37:29
  do anything like that, but it's so that's where I feel like the coaching piece. And I think
• 37:32
  therapists listening to this, if this doesn't resonate and it makes you uncomfortable,
• 37:36
  then talk to your therapist about that. Let's see what they've discovered.
• 37:39
  Because I feel like that's the part where, yeah, we want to help so bad,
• 37:42
  but we feel like, who am I to help this? I can't be their dad. But then if we really step back and
• 37:46
  say, oh, but we've set this person up to say, go and do, and they never had that support before.
• 37:52
  So now that's where I feel like now comes, I do now feel like I'm doing a sales pitch, Craig,
• 37:56
  but I'm passionate. Where it's like, these tools actually work. I get behind the tools.
• 38:01
  I didn't know that we weren't supposed to not make people feel bad until I realized,
• 38:05
  oh, my gosh, this is gold.
• 38:07
  And so now it really is me wanting to say, I will therapize you and coach you.
• 38:11
  And you do start to get to find your own sense of self and it will build that confidence
• 38:15
  and you will stop turning to these unhealthy coping mechanisms because you have addressed
• 38:19
  those internal parts and they were there for a reason, bless their heart, because mom and
• 38:24
  dad didn't know what to do.
• 38:25
  Well, I think of the therapist who's working in the emergency room environment is listening
• 38:30
  to this and saying, listen to this tomfoolery, this is ridiculous, you're not in the trenches
• 38:35
  like I am. And I respond to that saying, exactly. Most therapists are working with people who would
• 38:44
  benefit tremendously from their skills as a therapist and incorporating what the profession
• 38:50
  is learning around positive psychology. There's an evolution around the thinking of being overly
• 38:56
  problem-centric. And while there are people who thrive with the mirror technique, it takes a
• 39:05
  ridiculously long amount of time. And would that person do better by running them through an
• 39:10
  an emotional intelligence learning program.
• 39:15
  Yeah.
• 39:15
  Maybe, and so that's the opportunity that that merger provides for therapists,
• 39:21
  and they feel better about themselves,
• 39:23
  they're able to identify their client avatar, they're happier about their work,
• 39:28
  they're embracing that niche and what they do well,
• 39:31
  and they've got a framework to,
• 39:34
  I don't have to look anywhere else, I've got a framework, and I've got, for our training,
• 39:37
  I've got the mindful habit system that I can drop right into my practice and work with people struggling
• 39:42
  with compulsive sexual behavior and leverage those skills, which is like everybody nowadays.
• 39:49
  And leverage the model for everything else, food.
• 39:53
  And that's, I still remember the first time that we talked about that years ago
• 39:56
  and then where somebody, I felt like it was a plant, I think you had set them up to then,
• 40:00
  you were doing a long con because you got this client to start working with me
• 40:03
  for months to then have you have this discussion with me, and then they came in the next week,
• 40:07
  and then they said, hey, this works on anything, doesn't it?
• 40:10
  I was like, man, Craig's good, you know? Craig's good.
• 40:13
  I've got great teachers, man, and I've got great friends. We've got a few minutes.
• 40:18
  Can we do some of the things that I want to just kind of go into a couple of funny stories
• 40:21
  because these were in the lost tapes, because I just have some funny things.
• 40:25
  Now I feel like it's going to be that. Do you remember when, but one of my funniest moments, because you mentioned Pixar, Disney
• 40:32
  earlier, my Mike Wachowski or whatever moment was you were on this reality show.
• 40:38
  Was it called Sleeping with the Enemy or Behind Enemy Lines or whatever?
• 40:41
  Yes, Sleeping with the Enemy.
• 40:43
  Oh my gosh. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And so they had you go live in a porn star's house and the porn star come live in your
• 40:49
  house. And we set up this, this at the office I used to work at.
• 40:52
  We had a training or a, and then I remember she's sitting there and you're preaching and
• 40:57
  they had like four cameras right on her, but we were all supposed to be normal, natural.
• 41:00
  We had to take the labels off the water bottles.
• 41:03
  And I was like, I had worked up this amazing speech and it was like, and this is going
• 41:07
  to be my moment and you're, it's your episode, but they're going to film it.
• 41:10
  And I'm going to get on there and I get out there and I'm saying something.
• 41:13
  And she said something about the, I don't think porn is bad and kids and whatever.
• 41:17
  And I had this like, Oh, I really, I said a powerful thing.
• 41:20
  And I was like, trying to play it down and say, Oh yeah, you know, whatever. That was okay.
• 41:25
  And you were so nice. You're like, Hey, I think that could make it onto the show.
• 41:28
  And one time you called me and you're like, Hey, this is on the, going on the show.
• 41:31
  Cause you're like, it wasn't like you were struggling. I'm here in LA and I'm like, Oh, this would be so cool.
• 41:35
  So then we, I don't know if you remember, you came over to my house, you and Michelle
• 41:38
  and we watch it with Wendy and I.
• 41:40
  And we watch it and I'm watching the whole time and I'm praising Craig.
• 41:42
  And Craig's telling us the behind the scenes. He's like, they made us film that me opening the door four times,
• 41:47
  but it was like all natural. I'm loving every bit of it.
• 41:49
  And I'm like, so when's the part where Craig calls me and it says,
• 41:52
  Tony, coaching friend or whatever.
• 41:55
  Yeah, never happened. And then we go into that room and they have you speaking
• 41:58
  and they have like a couple of my colleagues speaking.
• 42:01
  And then I am standing beside you in one frame and about two thirds of me is there.
• 42:06
  And I remember I paused it and I've still got this up on my Facebook from years ago.
• 42:11
  And you're in the front point and I'm like, my TV debut. So I just wanted to tell that story, Craig.
• 42:17
  Do you remember though, that whole experience, what that was like?
• 42:20
  I do, I do. I remember watching it with you and seeing the tiny sliver and celebrating that. Look at you.
• 42:28
  Maybe we could screenshot that and, you know, well, maybe not, but it's still good.
• 42:34
  Oh, but what an ego I had though. I'm like, this is gonna be my big break.
• 42:37
  They're gonna see me and I'm gonna get my own spinoff. Like, that'll be fun.
• 42:40
  Yeah, no, I have all those delusions of grandeur with the television shows that I've done.
• 42:45
  Each one was gonna lead to, and they led to some really nice, wonderful things, but nothing.
• 42:50
  And now, what else have you done? Now, talking about those appearances and what has that been like,
• 42:54
  and I love how you're telling the Steve Harvey show because our story, because I always thought,
• 42:58
  oh, I thought Craig and Steve hung out, you know? Yeah, well, best buddies.
• 43:02
  We're best buddies. We shared a stage together, but that was it.
• 43:06
  Oh, I did Living with the Enemy. I did a show recently on A&E called Digital Addiction.
• 43:12
  Okay, what was that like? And that was being, same thing as intervention except digital addiction.
• 43:19
  Okay. The challenge is that there's addiction porn, if I may.
• 43:26
  When someone is an alcoholic, they've messed themselves, they're stumbling, from a visual perspective,
• 43:33
  that's captivating and engaging.
• 43:35
  The digital addictions don't present with those same issues.
• 43:39
  And so the show had to pivot and focus on impact.
• 43:42
  You know, what is the impact of these behaviors? Nonetheless, it was a great show.
• 43:47
  I really enjoyed it. I loved flying all over the place, working with people,
• 43:51
  you know, great, great product, A&E. So a reputable company that I enjoyed working with.
• 43:57
  And, you know, they have paid me of course too. So that was nice. That is, okay.
• 44:01
  And then I feel like we can't end this either with what we were talking before.
• 44:05
  I think the, man, a sad story, and I did a bonus episode with her on it a couple of weeks ago,
• 44:11
  but I think the way that we were connected was through my colleague, Shauna Roberts, who- Yes.
• 44:16
  Yeah, unfortunately, passed away since I did that bonus episode,
• 44:19
  and it just breaks my heart.
• 44:20
  I think you and I were talking a week or so ago about just that I'm so grateful
• 44:24
  that she brought us together. I don't even really remember the reasons why,
• 44:27
  but I trusted Shauna, and Shauna told me that she had done some work with you,
• 44:31
  and you came on board, and it just seems so natural.
• 44:33
  But man, I think we were telling a funny story about the event that we all did together.
• 44:39
  Yeah, well, another lesson in how short life is and how blessed we are.
• 44:44
  And I try every day, Tony, not to take.
• 44:47
  Any day for granted. And it's something like this, that of course, I'm mourning for her family. I
• 44:52
  know her daughter well. Her daughter worked for us very early on, as we were a budding company,
• 44:59
  and it was our first kind of assistant, maybe, for lack of a better word. So, very close with
• 45:05
  the family. I'm heartbroken, and I'm so sad. And it's like, whew, man, there by the grace of God, go I.
• 45:14
  Yeah, no, and I appreciate what you're saying there, but I felt that same way.
• 45:17
  And I felt wanting to honor her of just that really, you just don't know what, how fragile life can be.
• 45:22
  And so I did an episode a long time ago about where that will motivate one to change, but
• 45:27
  then does it continue to motivate to change?
• 45:30
  I really, I now I feel like in my relational frame is, is you and her because she's the
• 45:35
  one that introduced me to you. So now I feel like, man, moving forward and I'm just really grateful that, that she did
• 45:41
  do that.
• 45:42
  And does it produce sustainable action? I feel inspired. I feel what connected us,
• 45:48
  Tony, and what brought us together in the work that Shauna and I did in helping her.
• 45:54
  Clients in struggling with porn addiction, and then ultimately the event that we threw
• 45:59
  for the bishops, and the event that we did through with the television show that has launched what is
• 46:06
  just a mission that is really having a massive impact on people. And I feel so blessed to have
• 46:11
  I played a part in building the path back and I'm just so excited to see it grow.
• 46:16
  Now, I appreciate it. I appreciate all the work you've done.
• 46:18
  I will have all the links as I do to the path back in my show notes
• 46:22
  and just know that there's a lot more coming from Craig and I.
• 46:25
  And so, but the path back is, I could not be more confident of the skills that are taught there.
• 46:31
  It kind of speaks for itself.
• 46:32
  There are people that have gone through the path back and have done incredible change.
• 46:36
  There's a guy named LT who went through it. He had written, this is a crazy story, Craig,
• 46:39
  I'll tell you quickly. written a book about overcoming his own pornography addiction, and then he didn't release it.
• 46:46
  And he then fell back into relapse and then felt like an imposter and then reached out
• 46:50
  to me and didn't tell me that that was his story. And then he joined the Path Back and then just embraced it and then added a lot of the
• 46:57
  things about the Path Back and his experience working with me into his book.
• 47:01
  And now he's a real key member of that community. And so, I mean, that I don't think I've ever told you that story, but man, it was what
• 47:07
  testimony or testament to the tools, like having the real tools, and he will preach that every
• 47:11
  chance he gets now that, you know, he had had a lot of sobriety felt on top of the world to
• 47:16
  to the point where he wrote a book, and then.
• 47:18
  When he had, you know, when life lifed all over him, then he got these tools and he said,
• 47:23
  man, now I know what I didn't know. Hey, can you tell just the, when we were talking about
• 47:29
  that story when we were all together and I was joking with you about the concepts that my audience
• 47:34
  knows, I overuse this phrase confabulation where we create old narratives and memories and our
• 47:38
  memory is so fallible, but we think, cause I was thinking that when we had all the bishops in the
• 47:43
  the area, and you were being introduced into the working with some of the LDS folks.
• 47:48
  And I'm trying to tiptoe around some things, and if I remember the story right, it was the shock and awe.
• 47:55
  And you said, how would shock and awe work here? And I remember it was actually Sean and myself and Shelly, and we were just thinking, oh.
• 48:02
  I don't know, but what do you think about that?
• 48:05
  My memory is my goal was to shake things up because they were failing their constituents,
• 48:12
  my humble opinion. And my memory is I walked into the temple and like Jesus was throwing
• 48:20
  the tables around and with umbrage and preached from the mountaintop and shared with them,
• 48:29
  inspired them with the error of their ways. All I know is I wasn't invited back and whatever
• 48:36
  approach I took failed miserably and maybe a softer carrot, not even a, like a carrot steamed.
• 48:47
  No, that's the approach I should have taken. Mashed potato soft.
• 48:51
  Nah.
• 48:54
  But again, not knowing, I mean, bless your heart because your methods are, you were correct.
• 49:02
  But we were all kind of saying, can we say, do we just say pornography or should we, like, can we say porn?
• 49:08
  Like, should we do that? Right? Yes, I remember. And, you know, and I missed that cue.
• 49:12
  That's a good point because looking back, I'm like, wait, they're sensitive regarding
• 49:16
  my use of the word porn.
• 49:18
  I'm like a truck driver. And in no disrespect to truck drivers, excuse me, I, yes, I did not know my audience.
• 49:29
  I did not know my audience.
• 49:30
  I did not know, that was a big fail. That was a big fail. We can laugh about it.
• 49:37
  We can. But again, in the world of being mindful, and it happened and it was, and now we've
• 49:41
  grown. But what a joy to be back working with you, Craig, and thanks for coming on today.
• 49:46
  And then the therapists that are listening, just reach out to me.
• 49:50
  And if you want to be on the ground, now that you're gonna be on the ground floor or something,
• 49:52
  but for real, the therapist coaching thing, it worked for Reese's chocolate and peanut butter.
• 49:57
  I mean, it couldn't be better. And I feel like we're about to put those pieces together for this.
• 50:01
  So reach out. You've done it already. You know what it's like,
• 50:04
  and it's gotten 20 times better since you went through it. Yeah, I'm so excited.
• 50:09
  Okay, Craig Parra, thanks so much. We'll talk again soon. Thank you everybody.
• 50:13
  Okay, thanks Craig. Bye. Okay, I hope that you enjoyed the interview with Craig
• 50:16
  and that story cracks me up every time. And if you are not watching this interview,
• 50:21
  please go to my YouTube channel, Virtual Couch, and find the interview.
• 50:26
  Just watch that last part and watch Craig get animated when he's talking about throwing the tables in the temple
• 50:32
  because that is one of the funniest scenes I think that I've ever seen.
• 50:35
  I actually created a little clip of that and just sent it around to some of the people
• 50:39
  that I know that know Craig because he is animated, he's so fun to watch, and that was a hilarious story.
• 50:46
  So, here's the part that I.
• 50:48
  I feel very, very passionate about because I'm doing something that I don't normally
• 50:52
  do that I want to make an offer to you because I really do believe in the Path Back.
• 50:58
  And so I created a coupon code and I made the coupon code Craig.
• 51:01
  So if you go to PathBackRecovery.com and then you do sign up for the Path Back, which comes
• 51:07
  with its over 40 videos, modules, and then I feel like the gold in the Path Back program
• 51:13
  as well, is a weekly group call that I host, that we have an amazing group of people that.
• 51:18
  Are on that group call, and just we talk about everything.
• 51:23
  One of the things that I found challenging when I have led some of the 12-step groups
• 51:28
  is there's the concept around no crosstalk, that when somebody is sharing what their experience.
• 51:32
  Is, that it can feel very heavy, and people can get, I don't know, sometimes I feel like
• 51:36
  they're a little bit down, and you're just, you listen to them and you thank them, and
• 51:40
  then the next person's up.
• 51:42
  And we don't encourage crosstalk in the 12-step meetings. And part of me wanted to create this group simply because I wanted crosstalk, the good
• 51:49
  kind of crosstalk, the part where we're working together, we're solving problems as we share our own experiences.
• 51:56
  You know, in the couples model, which is the model that is behind my four pillars of a
• 52:00
  connected conversation, we talk about that we're designed to deal with emotion in concert
• 52:04
  with another human being.
• 52:06
  So when there are things, especially things that are driven by shame or isolation, then
• 52:10
  I love nothing more than having a group of people that can share their experiences and
• 52:14
  then even offer some suggestions.
• 52:16
  Not from a, you're doing it wrong or a fix it or a judgment standpoint, but just we have
• 52:21
  open dialogue. So that group call is one of the most amazing things that I think that happens as part of the Path Back.
• 52:27
  So use the coupon code, Craig, and you get $100 off, but act now.
• 52:32
  Please act now because that coupon code will disappear and then it will go back to its
• 52:39
  regular price. But I hope that you like what you heard today from the interview with Craig.
• 52:44
  And if you have questions, please reach out. I offer a 30-day money-back guarantee to the
• 52:48
  the Path Back program.
• 52:50
  Because honest to goodness, your first 30 days should be transformative. And if not, that's okay.
• 52:54
  It doesn't mean that something is wrong with you. It may not be the exact right program for you.
• 52:59
  I am incredibly confident in the program. And there are people there that have been involved
• 53:05
  in other programs that have found a home with the path back. And so I feel very confident in that.
• 53:10
  There's an analogy that people often use that I think at times I felt was a little bit.
• 53:16
  It out there, but it really is the concept of there's different allergy medications that
• 53:21
  work for different people.
• 53:22
  There are just different things that sit right with others in their stomachs and in their
• 53:25
  GI tracts and you name it that don't work for other people.
• 53:29
  And so I can recognize that there may be other methods or models that may work better for,
• 53:34
  others, but I can fully stand behind the path back as a way to overcome unhealthy coping,
• 53:40
  mechanisms and become the person you always wanted to be, not in a cliched way, but in
• 53:45
  a very realistic way. So if you have questions, reach out at info at tonyoverbay.com or contact
• 53:50
  at tonyoverbay.com. Use coupon code Craig, and then I hope that I will see you on the group calls.
• 53:55
  Music.
• 56:13
  On the page.