Latest / The Lila Rose Show / E33: Change, Surgery, and Regret, A Story of Detransition with Chloe Cole

Transcript

E33: Change, Surgery, and Regret, A Story of Detransition with Chloe Cole · The Lila Rose Show

• 0:00
  If somebody just told me like, this isn't going to make you
• 0:02
  into a boy, and there's no guarantee that doing any of this
• 0:06
  is going to resolve your distress, you're perfect as you
• 0:09
  are as a woman. The issue isn't your body, it's
• 0:13
  the way that you think of it. And no matter what you do, what
• 0:16
  you do to yourself, what drugs you take, what, what surgeries
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  you get, you're always going to be a woman and you are enough.
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  I won't be dealing with any of this right now.
• 0:25
  Did anyone say that to you? Chloe, thanks for coming on the
• 0:37
  podcast. Yeah, thank you for having me.
• 0:39
  I've admired you from afar, I think for the last maybe almost
• 0:42
  a year since you started really do it being public with your
• 0:44
  advocacy. So I'm excited for the
• 0:47
  conversation today. So First off, I think you and I
• 0:51
  have a lot actually in common being we're both from California
• 0:55
  and similar area. So tell me about where you're
• 0:57
  from and how you grew up. Yeah.
• 0:59
  So I'm from the the Central Valley area of California.
• 1:02
  I'm from Antica and born and raised there.
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  Never never really been out of the area.
• 1:10
  And what was your what was life like growing up for you?
• 1:16
  I mean, I'm the youngest of the five kids.
• 1:19
  I've got two older sisters, two older brothers, and so I kind of
• 1:22
  had influence from both sexes, but I was a kind of in between
• 1:26
  on being like a girly girl and a tomboy in a lot of ways.
• 1:29
  Like I like playing dress up with my older sisters and
• 1:32
  pretending that we were characters from shows.
• 1:34
  And I loved when they would put makeup on me and I stole like
• 1:41
  their their Bratz dolls and their Barbie dolls and stuff.
• 1:43
  And I also like playing video games with my older brothers and
• 1:47
  and playing outside and getting dirty.
• 1:53
  I I've always kind of been on technology using the Internet,
• 2:02
  and part of that is I kind of struggled a lot socially growing
• 2:09
  up, especially as I got older, hit purity and went into middle
• 2:13
  school. I was bullied quite a bit in
• 2:17
  elementary school and after one school year when I finally
• 2:21
  managed to, to make friends, I was back at square one because I
• 2:26
  had to move neighborhoods and then move schools.
• 2:28
  And that was when all my older siblings started to move out.
• 2:32
  There's a pretty significant age gap between me and my older
• 2:34
  siblings, about 7 to 8 years. So I for a lot of my childhood,
• 2:39
  I was kind of almost like an only, only child.
• 2:42
  And so I just turned to the Internet.
• 2:45
  And what was the Internet? What was that like?
• 2:47
  Turning to the Internet, what happened?
• 2:50
  I mean, mostly when I first started, before I got a phone, I
• 2:54
  got my first computer when I was about nine years old.
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  It was a pre built like gaming computer that my dad had for a
• 3:01
  while and they're just kind of sitting around.
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  He didn't really have any use for it and so he just decided to
• 3:06
  to give it to me. And I like doing artwork on
• 3:11
  there. I started with Microsoft Paint
• 3:13
  in a mouse and then eventually one year for Christmas, I got a
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  giant a drawing tablet and I was really into communities having
• 3:22
  to do with artwork. And I also watched, I played
• 3:26
  video games on my PC and I watched streamers and I mean, I
• 3:31
  was kind of a nerd. So I, I really like stuff like
• 3:33
  that. And I was really interested in
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  online communities having to do with stuff with that.
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  So when I got my first phone, I mean, everybody else my age was,
• 3:44
  was using the cell phone. Many of them had gotten phones
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  as young as like second grade. How old were you at?
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  This I was 11 and now everybody's using social media
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  apps like Instagram and Snapchat.
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  And so I wanted to see, yeah, I wanted to see what I was missing
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  out on. So of course I decided to make
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  my first accounts on on those platforms.
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  And Instagram was the one that I used the most.
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  It was the most engaging to me because I mean, it's very image
• 4:14
  oriented and because I like seeing, I like browsing
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  communities around like art and the shows and anime that I
• 4:23
  watched and manga and video games that I played.
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  And that was actually my introduction to the trans
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  community. It wasn't right away.
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  It wasn't directly into that, into the LGBT community, but a
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  lot of users in these communities were people who
• 4:42
  identified as LGBT and especially like transgender or
• 4:45
  non binary. And many of those individuals
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  were girls around my age, anywhere from like 12 to maybe
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  like their early 20s. And these people were quite like
• 4:59
  me and that they were kind of nerdy, had always been on the
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  boys side from a very young age and often feel like they didn't
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  really fit in and they're opposed.
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  They would make that were sometimes just not really
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  related to the media that we were that they were that they're
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  offensive. It was about take their personal
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  lives. And I just felt like I really in
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  some way that I connected to these people.
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  Had you? Did you?
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  Had you known anyone like that in school, or had you ever met
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  anyone like that? No, I, I knew there was a girl I
• 5:33
  knew who was a lesbian. But other than that, it was
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  really new to me because I, I've, I heard the, the word
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  transgender a few times being used by like adults in their
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  conversations or on the TV, but I never really cared about it.
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  And so it was in my face. So what was the moment when you
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  first began to think, well, maybe I'm transgender?
• 5:58
  Yeah, I mean, I was 11-12 years old, so I was already at a point
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  in time where naturally I started to to wonder about what
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  I wanted to be in the world, who I was and what my role would be.
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  And at first it started with, well, I've always kind of liked
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  girls a little bit. So maybe I'm not entirely
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  straight, maybe I'm bisexual or or pansexual.
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  And then eventually I just kept switching between labels, trying
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  to figure out which one felt right.
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  And it wasn't just about my sexuality or who I, who I like
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  now, it was about my gender. Because I mean, I never really
• 6:48
  100% felt like the other girls, you know, I had, I had different
• 6:54
  interests from them. I acted differently from them
• 6:57
  and I felt like I even looked differently from them.
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  I had somebody image issues. I started developing at a really
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  young age. I was around 8 or 9, just going
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  into 4th grade when my breasts started to visibly develop and I
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  had to start wearing bras. And that was a really, that was
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  a really difficult thing for me to adjust to, especially at a
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  young age. I grew up with older sisters.
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  So I would, sometimes I would see them watching shows or like
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  they would have magazines around that were very like, I would
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  often talk about things like relationships or like having
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  like having how you, how you look.
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  And so from a very young age, I was very cognizant of of things
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  like that. And I often felt like I just
• 7:47
  couldn't match up to these images that I would see in the
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  media. And social media was really
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  exacerbating that, especially on Instagram, where there's a lot
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  of images of girls wearing a lot of makeup, wearing bikinis and
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  very sexualized poses and in situations.
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  And on one hand, I didn't really want to be like that, but it was
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  also like, if that's what being a girl is supposed to be like,
• 8:13
  why aren't I like that? I, I just don't think I match up
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  to other women. And I mean, I thought that all
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  being a woman had to offer was just hardship because that was
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  all that I was taught. I would always hear about how
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  how terrible periods are, how scary the possibility of getting
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  pregnant and then actually being pregnant, and then how painful
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  childbirth is, and then how scary menopause is and other
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  girls accounts of being sexually abused or assaulted or stopped
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  growing up. And it got to the point that I
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  was like, well, is something like that going to happen to me
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  when I'm an adult? Is, is this all that being a
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  woman chalks up to? If it is, then I I don't want
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  any part of that. It's a pretty bum deal if that
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  is all it is. And why would anyone want part
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  of that? I thought it was.
• 9:19
  So you're online, you're seeing this other, you know, you're
• 9:23
  seeing people that say they're transgender online doing part of
• 9:26
  the art that you love and video games and things that you're
• 9:29
  already interested in. And you're having this sort of
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  interior maybe conflict about what it means to even be a
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  woman. So what happens next?
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  Yeah. So as I know further and further
• 9:46
  into the trans community and saw what it was all about, I wasn't
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  really up until after the beginning of my medical
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  transition, I wasn't really interacting directly with any
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  individuals within the community.
• 10:01
  But I started seeing things about how people have sex
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  sprints, how if somebody experiences gender dysphoria or
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  even acts more like the opposite sex, then that probably means
• 10:20
  that very likely means actually that they have a brain that is
• 10:23
  more like the opposite sex. And that is what's making them
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  feel that way or behave that way.
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  And, you know, there's always I, I always felt like there was
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  something separating me from other kids my age and especially
• 10:34
  other roles. And the more I read up into it,
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  the more it made sense to me. And eventually I just felt like
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  there's just no way that I could be a girl.
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  I think that I was actually supposed to be a boy this whole
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  time. And did you?
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  I'm going to, I'm going to start pursuing that.
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  And. Did you feel very unhappy during
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  that time? Like you, you said you wanted to
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  figure out as an 11 year old, like what is, what's my role in
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  the world or how do I, what is my future like?
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  Did you feel like a deep discontent or unhappiness or
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  anxiety? Or what was that feeling like as
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  you were having that logical progression of, well, if these
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  things don't add up and this is what this, you know, research
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  says, then I or these people online are saying, and this
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  means that I must be, I must not be a girl.
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  But what was going on inside your, your, I guess your
• 11:28
  emotions in your heart? I mean, I was at a new school.
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  I'd been there for a few years, but I just didn't really fit in
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  and it was kind of cliquey and I didn't really have a lot of
• 11:40
  close friends. So I was, I was kind of lonely.
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  But I feel like that's pretty normal at that age.
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  I think most kids that age feel like that.
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  So when you after you went through this sort of thought
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  process, what did you do with, what did you do with the
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  conclusion that you reached? I'm a boy.
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  I thought that I believe that I was actually a boy and that I
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  was actually my parents son and not their daughter.
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  And so I started pursuing that and I started to experiment a
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  little with my expression, started cutting my hair shorter
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  slowly and slowly over time. Whenever I'd go shopping, I'd
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  start going for the boys section more often.
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  And I mean, it wasn't unusual for me to do that, but I was
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  trying. I was starting to get rid of all
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  my skirts and dresses and pinks and bright colors and swap it
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  out for a more masculine wardrobe.
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  And I started telling my some of my friends, my closer friends at
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  school, that I was going to transition, that I wanted to, I
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  wanted them to refer to me by a new name, by new pronouns and as
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  a boy. And most of them actually
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  responded pretty negatively. The the love bombing didn't
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  really come right away. The affirmation didn't really
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  come right away and I actually got bullied for a little bit.
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  There are a lot of people who picked on me for it, but I
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  waited a little bit and tell my parents about it because I, I
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  was really, I was scared of how they would react.
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  I didn't know if they were going to be supportive of me doing
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  this, but I knew that I, I mean, if I wanted to go through
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  transition, I couldn't keep them in in the dark for long.
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  What was it like telling your parents?
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  It was something that I'd been wanting to do for some time, but
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  I just wasn't sure of how they would react.
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  I didn't know if, I mean, I'd heard stories from from other
• 14:03
  transgender people about their their parents almost hating them
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  after they told them that they were transgender.
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  Even some kids getting, getting kicked out or moving to a new
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  home and just being in a really rough home situation.
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  And I didn't really expect anything like that out of out of
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  my own parents. I knew that they would love me
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  still, but it made it a little bit more tense.
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  And so I decided that I would write them a letter so that I
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  didn't have to bring it up face to face that I could give them
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  some time to, to think about it. Because I, I knew that as a
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  parent, that's got to be a hard thing to hear from your own kid.
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  I don't think anybody would really expect that.
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  So I gave them some time. I just told them that I had
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  something important tell them that I left on the coffee table.
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  And I was looking forward to how they would respond.
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  And when they read it, they were, they were supportive at
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  first. They wanted me to, they wanted
• 15:12
  to be supportive of me. And to help me get through this.
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  But at the same time, they were also very cautious and they
• 15:23
  didn't really know where this feeling was coming from.
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  They didn't know what to do about this.
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  So they decided that, I mean, we're not experts on this, so
• 15:36
  we're going to get a professional involved instead
• 15:39
  and we're going to get you a therapist.
• 15:43
  And did you go to a therapist? Yeah, I did.
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  This was the first time you were going to you.
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  You've been to therapy? Yeah, I mean, I, I've been to a
• 15:52
  psychiatrist before I was a kid and gotten diagnosed with ADHD
• 15:57
  before, but not like a like a personal therapist or anything
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  like that. Did you feel like you still had
• 16:04
  ADHD at this point and how is that affecting you?
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  I mean, I didn't doubt the diagnosis for a while.
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  I was a kid who was pretty inattentive in a lot of my
• 16:19
  classes. I didn't often just skipped out
• 16:21
  on my school work and didn't really pay attention because I
• 16:25
  just didn't really see any meaning in in doing doing any of
• 16:29
  it. And I, I had, I had really bad
• 16:37
  organization skills growing up and it's still something that I
• 16:41
  kind of struggle with. But I also had some social
• 16:46
  difficulties growing up, which I've I've heard is common for
• 16:49
  people with ADHD. But it was really hard for me
• 16:52
  growing up. And I thought that, I think part
• 16:56
  of it is that I was so heavily pathologized as a kid that I
• 16:59
  just accepted that all of my, my hardships came down to clinical
• 17:05
  issues. But I think that I think now
• 17:09
  that the ADHD diagnosis was actually false and that I'm
• 17:14
  actually on the spectrum, but they just refused to to diagnose
• 17:21
  me with it. Almost like the word is word
• 17:23
  autism is too scary to say out loud.
• 17:26
  Like I, I had a screening for it when I was about four or five
• 17:31
  because I wasn't really my teachers in preschool and
• 17:35
  kindergarten noticed that I wasn't really interacting
• 17:37
  normally with other kids and that I was kind of just aloof
• 17:40
  and in my own world. And I had some symptoms of it
• 17:45
  that they thought was, they told my parents like, you should
• 17:48
  probably get your, your kid. You should probably get a
• 17:51
  screening for your kid. And they did.
• 17:54
  And the physician just told them, I think your kids too
• 18:00
  smart to be on the spectrum. She's she's very smart.
• 18:03
  She's very smart for age. It's so crazy because so many
• 18:07
  autistic people with autism can be so smart.
• 18:11
  Right. And so.
• 18:13
  That's just kind of a a weird thing to say.
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  Yeah, I had a second series of screenings when I was 17 years
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  old, and it was pretty much the same response.
• 18:24
  Like, well, you're really well spoken and you're really
• 18:27
  intelligent. It's it's not impossible, it's a
• 18:33
  possibility, but let's let's wait a little bit.
• 18:37
  What blows my mind with all this, and we're obviously going
• 18:39
  to get into like what happens with this crazy thing that you
• 18:42
  endured with Kaiser and, and, and all of that, But even what
• 18:45
  you just said earlier, you felt pathologized.
• 18:48
  It was like very insightful what you said, like you felt
• 18:51
  pathologized as a kid. I think the words you used and I
• 18:55
  think our society is so unable to deal with just people that
• 19:01
  are just different. Like we have this expectation of
• 19:04
  the way you have to be. So if you just act different
• 19:06
  socially, because I grew up homeschooled, I grew up because
• 19:09
  kind of like, you know, a nerd among nerds.
• 19:11
  My dad, you know, my mom jokes, my dad might be on the spectrum,
• 19:14
  you know, things like that. And it's like, I don't know if
• 19:16
  that's a joke, but he's just highly bright and a little bit,
• 19:19
  you know, interact socially, just different than other
• 19:21
  people. And just like all this
• 19:23
  pathologizing of kids just because they're different when
• 19:26
  everyone's different in different ways, right?
• 19:29
  So not to like over generalize, but I think we do our disservice
• 19:32
  to kids and authentic diversity like diversity of personality
• 19:38
  and talent by making medical issues out of all of it, you
• 19:43
  know, calling all a medical. Issue Yeah.
• 19:44
  And I was also diagnosed with disruptive behavior disorder.
• 19:51
  What does that mean? Well, for me, I mean, I really
• 19:56
  struggled with making friends and I was getting bullied quite
• 20:00
  a bit in elementary school. And I would often take it out
• 20:02
  physically on my bullies. I would often hit them, like
• 20:05
  push them to the ground, like throw things at them.
• 20:09
  I would often throw tantrums in class and I didn't really know
• 20:13
  how to emotionally regulate myself.
• 20:14
  And I would take it out externally I guess.
• 20:18
  How old are you? I was, I think like 5 to 8 years
• 20:22
  old when when I was like that. Do you think if you hadn't been
• 20:28
  bullied and if you had been in a learning environment that was
• 20:31
  more suited to you, where you weren't feeling bored all the
• 20:34
  time, you would have? Is obviously a huge
• 20:36
  hypothetical, but you would have.
• 20:38
  You might not have acted out as much.
• 20:40
  Absolutely. Because you were just forced to
• 20:42
  sit in the classroom with your bullies.
• 20:44
  Yeah. And you're like, this is boring.
• 20:46
  Yeah, that was that was a big part of it.
• 20:48
  I didn't really feel like I had much of A community and I didn't
• 20:50
  because my older siblings were so much older than me.
• 20:53
  Like I didn't, I felt like I just didn't really have anybody
• 20:56
  to relate to. And I growing up, I felt like
• 20:59
  there was something wrong with me.
• 21:01
  Like I, I thought as a kid even that I was evil and that's why
• 21:05
  nobody liked me. It probably also didn't help
• 21:10
  that they started medicating me for my for my ADHD diagnosis
• 21:14
  when I was about 11:10 or 11:00. What kind of medication it was.
• 21:19
  They started with long release medication but they're
• 21:23
  constantly switching me between meds.
• 21:24
  Like different doses, different different medications.
• 21:28
  To try to get you to what do your homework.
• 21:30
  Yeah. You just didn't like your
• 21:34
  homework. I didn't.
• 21:35
  The screen was more entertaining.
• 21:37
  I'd rather I'd rather draw or play video games.
• 21:39
  I had. I had.
• 21:40
  Should have been homeschooled. I had sketches all over my
• 21:43
  school work all the time and I always get in trouble for it.
• 21:45
  Because you're an artist. Right.
• 21:47
  And sometimes I my teachers would even get me in trouble for
• 21:49
  it like they would I would get like a perfect score on a test
• 21:52
  but I would Draw Something silly on the side of it and they would
• 21:56
  just give me a 0 for it. No way.
• 21:58
  Yeah, and I also wasn't allowed to draw outside because it was
• 22:02
  dangerous to have a pencil out of out of the classroom.
• 22:07
  What school did you go to? I I won't name the school but.
• 22:14
  It was a public school. Yeah, it was.
• 22:16
  And it was kind of California. Yeah, it was very, it was kind
• 22:19
  of out in the country, but it was one of the oldest schools in
• 22:21
  the district and they were kind of kind of stingy, very clicky.
• 22:27
  So you weren't allowed to color outside meaning or to draw
• 22:30
  outside meaning? If you wanted to take your art
• 22:32
  notebook and do sketching of a tree, you weren't allowed to do
• 22:36
  that. Yeah, because why?
• 22:38
  Because it's dangerous to have a pencil.
• 22:40
  What if I What if I get stabbed in the eye?
• 22:43
  How old are you? The school that said that I went
• 22:49
  there from 5th to to 8th grade. So you're like 11 years old.
• 22:56
  Yeah. Wow.
• 22:57
  All right. So you're you're going through
• 22:59
  all this and you're basically feeling like you're different.
• 23:03
  Understandably so, because the world is asking you to be this
• 23:06
  particular kind of person that fits in this very rigid academic
• 23:12
  category and even I would say gender stereotype category
• 23:16
  because that you were saying it was magazines and makeup and
• 23:19
  this idea of like women are this way and because you're not that
• 23:23
  way, then maybe I'm not a woman. And eventually I did end up
• 23:26
  liking those things, but I mean, for a while I just didn't want
• 23:32
  anything to do with those things.
• 23:33
  And there's still a lot of, I feel like in in some ways, I
• 23:37
  still have some traditionally more masculine leaning
• 23:40
  behaviours. And it's just one of those many
• 23:48
  things that made me feel like there's something separating me
• 23:52
  from other women. Like I was just watching from
• 23:57
  the outside while the women got to.
• 23:59
  I felt like they got to interact with each other and relate to
• 24:02
  each other and I didn't feel like I was that way at all.
• 24:04
  So were you looking to fit in somewhere?
• 24:06
  Yeah, absolutely. And you thought I have a better
• 24:09
  shot of fitting in with the boys than the girls?
• 24:11
  Yeah, I mean, I also struggle to socialize with boys a little
• 24:18
  bit, but sometimes I found it easier to relate to like boys
• 24:24
  sense sense of humor and love their interests and even the way
• 24:30
  that we've we felt about about the world.
• 24:35
  Yeah, I think boys in a way can be easier to get along.
• 24:40
  I remember growing up, I mean, obviously there's a lot of
• 24:42
  differences, but I had a lot of brothers and it was like, for a
• 24:45
  while I didn't feel like I knew how to interact with girls.
• 24:48
  And I kind of figured it out. But because I didn't grow up
• 24:50
  with sisters, I didn't have a sister till I was nine years
• 24:53
  old, so. Yeah, I growing up, I had a kind
• 24:57
  of offensive sense of humor that a lot of girls just didn't
• 25:01
  really like it all. Meaning just jokes that were
• 25:05
  not. Yeah, little off colored.
• 25:09
  That's very funny from like being five years old.
• 25:11
  Off colored jokes were there. Did you have a favorite joke?
• 25:20
  Not a particular favorite joke, but I remember in kindergarten
• 25:26
  up to like first or second grade, we would have assignments
• 25:29
  where we would learn about important historical figures and
• 25:32
  we'd have to like, color them in.
• 25:34
  I'd like, I'd draw like band aids on their faces and like
• 25:39
  give them notes, give. Them noise run.
• 25:43
  Give them like give them like running makeup, blushing,
• 25:48
  Nosebleed, just ran just random stuff just like your.
• 25:53
  Teacher's like she's definitely a boy.
• 25:59
  Did you save any of that artwork?
• 26:02
  It's probably somewhere in my closet.
• 26:03
  It's pretty hilarious. OK, so you're just a very funny,
• 26:11
  quirky girl who's like tough and figuring out and smart and
• 26:15
  figuring out our place in the world.
• 26:16
  And then you end up with this therapist.
• 26:19
  Well, you went to the psychiatrist, you gave you the
• 26:21
  meds as an 8 year old because you don't like to sit in your
• 26:23
  chair all day and it's boring school.
• 26:25
  And then you end up, I'm not making fun of it.
• 26:27
  I'm just it, there's an absurdity to the way that our
• 26:30
  systems don't make space for diversity, quite frankly,
• 26:36
  diversity of personality and talent, I would call it anyway.
• 26:40
  So, but then you tell your parents, OK, I must be a boy and
• 26:42
  you're seeing the stuff on transgender stuff online and you
• 26:46
  can go to this therapist. Tell me, tell me what happens
• 26:48
  there and how old are you? Yeah, I was.
• 26:52
  I was. This was just before my 13th
• 26:56
  birthday so I was 12 going on 13 and by.
• 26:59
  The way have you started? You started puberty already
• 27:01
  because you started early. Yeah.
• 27:02
  So is that very uncomfortable? But I know for me puberty was
• 27:04
  very uncomfortable. Yeah, I was about three to four
• 27:07
  years in already and it was really uncomfortable because I
• 27:15
  there is like that stress of developing early and like
• 27:18
  knowing that other people can see these changes and that
• 27:21
  they'll have whatever thoughts about that and then feeling like
• 27:25
  I have to look a certain way and to meet a certain expectation.
• 27:29
  And also it was just, it's hard as a kid dealing with that sort
• 27:33
  of change and so rapidly. Did you feel?
• 27:36
  Did that come with a feeling of shame?
• 27:39
  Yeah, absolutely. On one hand, it was like, I'm
• 27:43
  really excited to develop and look pretty, but I also felt
• 27:46
  like that just wasn't happening, that I wasn't.
• 27:49
  I thought that my life was over because I didn't look like a
• 27:52
  supermodel at age 12, you know? So it's so toxic what the
• 27:58
  supermodel weirdo culture has done.
• 28:01
  Yeah, I mean, I grew up in the age of like.
• 28:04
  Because you're on Instagram. Yeah, Yeah.
• 28:06
  I grew up in the age where you're expected to be thick,
• 28:09
  curvy, have the big voluptuous body.
• 28:12
  And I just wasn't like that. You know, I was skinny, kind of
• 28:16
  on the athletic side. My breasts were pretty.
• 28:21
  They're a little bit on the smaller side.
• 28:22
  And my hips weren't very developed yet.
• 28:24
  And I mean, I was just a kid, but I didn't really understand
• 28:27
  that. But I also like having my hair
• 28:31
  short and I had bigger shoulders, a little bit of
• 28:33
  muscle. And sometimes what people would
• 28:36
  like, make comments about like the like how muscular I was.
• 28:41
  And I was really conscious of that.
• 28:43
  And I felt like I didn't even look like a woman.
• 28:47
  But I I'd been through several therapists over the years.
• 28:50
  The first one I had was especially lousy.
• 28:52
  He just didn't, really. This was after you told your
• 28:55
  parents I think I'm a boy. Yeah, I, I didn't, I didn't
• 28:58
  realize how much these these body image issues were bothering
• 29:00
  me. I mean, I think and for the
• 29:04
  women listening, I want to hear what they have to say in the
• 29:05
  comments about their experience with this.
• 29:07
  Because for me as a teen girl, when I first hit puberty,
• 29:10
  probably 11 years old or maybe 10 actually, I started.
• 29:14
  But I remember feeling so much shame when someone told my mom,
• 29:19
  Oh, Lila needs a bra because my breasts were developing.
• 29:21
  And instead of it feeling like, oh, this is a beautiful thing
• 29:25
  and every female, every woman's body is unique and I need to
• 29:28
  uniquely embrace mine. There was just like straight up
• 29:30
  shame. And when my period came shame.
• 29:34
  And that's not the way it's supposed to be or has to be.
• 29:37
  And I'm not saying it's my mom's fault or my parents fault.
• 29:39
  They, I was the first daughter. They were figuring out my, my
• 29:41
  mom, her experience of going through puberty growing up
• 29:44
  wasn't like, you know, done in the maybe the best way.
• 29:48
  And so there was just this inability to like, know how to
• 29:52
  deal with it. And so I developed an eating
• 29:54
  disorder because I started to hate my developing body.
• 29:57
  It didn't look the way I thought it should look.
• 29:58
  And so that's part of my story. And people can, you know, I've
• 30:01
  shared it before, But so I relate to those feelings.
• 30:04
  Obviously you have additional things going on too, but it's a
• 30:07
  vulnerable place to be in. Right.
• 30:10
  I mean, I wouldn't say that I was shamed for it, really.
• 30:17
  People didn't shame you, right? But you still felt.
• 30:20
  Shame, right? I still felt that.
• 30:21
  People shamed me either, but you feel ashamed because you don't
• 30:25
  know what to do with this experience.
• 30:26
  Yeah, I kind of my parents never really had like, the talk with
• 30:30
  me growing up. And I feel like if they just
• 30:34
  talked to me about it and they taught me about it, it would
• 30:36
  have helped greatly. Like, I know that's a really
• 30:38
  uncomfortable, almost kind of like compromising situation for
• 30:42
  both the parent and the kid, but it's important.
• 30:45
  Like growing up isn't comfortable.
• 30:49
  And there's like the parents who like who are hush hush about it,
• 30:53
  thinks it's shameful. And then on the other end of the
• 30:55
  spectrum, there's like the the adult woman who are like, oh,
• 30:58
  it's such a beautiful experience.
• 31:00
  It's going to feel great. Like, and you should be proud of
• 31:03
  it. You should put it up on a
• 31:05
  billboard, Yeah, that you're having periods and free bleed
• 31:10
  and whatever else, but. But maybe somewhere in between?
• 31:15
  Yeah. I mean, I think it's important
• 31:17
  to be objective about it because it's it's not going to feel
• 31:22
  great, but it's a necessary part of becoming an adult.
• 31:26
  And it's beautiful because it can bring your puberty at once
• 31:30
  you've sexually developed, can bring life into the world, can
• 31:33
  lead to like all of these beautiful things.
• 31:35
  It's all for a good reason. Yeah, and it, and it's, it's not
• 31:38
  supposed to have shame, but shame can be part of it because
• 31:40
  we're in a broken world navigating how to deal with our
• 31:43
  own emotions. But.
• 31:44
  It's just a part of our design. Yeah, yeah.
• 31:47
  I think that's a very like realist and mature and and
• 31:51
  loving view because it's actually like seeing the
• 31:54
  humanity of the person and their biology and accepting it instead
• 31:57
  of over dramatizing it in one way or the other basically.
• 32:04
  So what happened with this first therapist that you went to?
• 32:06
  What did you tell them? What did they tell?
• 32:07
  What did they tell you? Well, I mean, once gender was
• 32:11
  brought up and that was my focus because I didn't really realize
• 32:14
  just how much my other, the other things going on in my life
• 32:17
  were affecting me. It was like, oh, OK, so we're
• 32:21
  going to focus on that. What's your preferred name?
• 32:25
  What's your gender identity? What do you identify as, and
• 32:29
  what pronouns do you want us to refer to you as?
• 32:33
  So did the therapist explore with you whatsoever your
• 32:36
  discomfort with your with puberty and like just the
• 32:39
  process of becoming a woman because you're going through
• 32:45
  puberty still, Yeah. Now, now as a boy, I was feeling
• 32:50
  uncomfortable with the fact that I had a feminine form and that I
• 32:53
  was skinny and I didn't want to, I wanted to have more muscle.
• 32:57
  I didn't want my breasts to be visible.
• 32:58
  And I wanted I didn't want to have any curves whatsoever
• 33:04
  because I just wanted to look like all the other boys my age.
• 33:07
  And they're like, OK, so you have the stress around your
• 33:10
  secondary sex characteristics and you feel like you don't
• 33:14
  really fit in with other girls. You've always felt like you've
• 33:17
  been more boyish so. So there is no there is no
• 33:24
  exploration, I guess. Not at all.
• 33:26
  There's no exploration of other issues you had even as a child,
• 33:32
  your experience of being just different and challenged in
• 33:36
  connecting with most girls and many boys.
• 33:39
  It was more just that you came out to this therapist.
• 33:41
  You said I think I'm a boy or am a boy.
• 33:43
  And it was just accepted as fact, yeah.
• 33:48
  And they didn't. They didn't even.
• 33:49
  But it's curious that it's one thing to just accept it as fact,
• 33:52
  it's another thing to accept it as fact and not be interested to
• 33:54
  understand how you came to that conclusion.
• 33:58
  Yeah, I mean the things I would tell them, like around my
• 34:01
  discomfort, around my body and not not really fitting in.
• 34:04
  It was just accepted as part of me being a boy of my destiny.
• 34:10
  I find that peculiar. I'm curious your thoughts on
• 34:12
  this because it's almost like this to say, you know, for a
• 34:18
  young person to say I'm they're a girl and they say I'm a boy or
• 34:20
  they're a boy and they say I'm a girl and there's no, and the
• 34:24
  evidence for it is that they think it and that they're
• 34:26
  uncomfortable with their body, right?
• 34:29
  And then the therapist or the psychological, you know, this,
• 34:32
  the medical community just accepts it as a fact.
• 34:34
  It almost feels like a sort of like religious belief in this
• 34:41
  destiny belief that the child has or the person has like their
• 34:47
  destiny is. I think that's what it really
• 34:50
  comes down to, honestly. The belief in a gender identity
• 34:54
  isn't really too dissimilar from a belief in a soul and that it's
• 34:57
  like this in it. Part of a person or innate I
• 35:02
  should say. Yet it's disembodied, it's not
• 35:10
  actually a part of the body, and yet somehow it influences who
• 35:14
  the person really is. Yeah, it's a belief in a soul,
• 35:19
  in a different kind of soul that hates the body that it's been
• 35:22
  given. And then the therapist chooses
• 35:25
  and the medical community chooses to listen to this soul
• 35:29
  as opposed to the reality of the body and the person in front of
• 35:32
  them. So what happens next?
• 35:39
  Eventually I I became dissatisfied with my therapist
• 35:45
  because I had stuff going on at school and not home that he just
• 35:49
  wasn't really addressing at all. And like what I mean, I had all
• 35:56
  my electronics taken away for some time and.
• 36:00
  By your parents. Yeah, why it's happened so far
• 36:09
  back, I can't really remember the specific details.
• 36:11
  But no, I think it was because I had like AI had online friends
• 36:19
  and I gave some of them my number.
• 36:21
  And I guess like I got a text that was associated with some, I
• 36:29
  don't know, it was just some, some name that my dad, he just
• 36:31
  woke me up one day asking like who who this person was and why
• 36:39
  I was messaging them. And I didn't know who he was
• 36:42
  talking about. I guess it was like an old
• 36:44
  number associated with a different name.
• 36:46
  But I didn't want him to know that I had friends online that I
• 36:49
  gave them, that I gave out my number to them.
• 36:52
  And so I was very adamant about not letting him check my phone.
• 36:55
  They just decided to take it away.
• 36:57
  Because were they afraid? Do you think that you were
• 36:59
  talking to people that were maybe predators?
• 37:01
  Probably, yeah, do. You think that's a valid
• 37:03
  concern? Absolutely.
• 37:05
  I mean, I could have been in that situation.
• 37:06
  I actually was a few times over the years.
• 37:09
  In what situation? Speaking to to predators.
• 37:14
  How could you? How did you find out there were
• 37:16
  predators? I mean, I think a better way of
• 37:24
  wording that would be. Weirdos.
• 37:29
  Yeah, I mean, I, there were a few people online inside and
• 37:36
  outside the trans community that I, that I had like online
• 37:42
  relationships with. And many of them were much, much
• 37:44
  older than I was. That's a predator.
• 37:48
  Yeah. And your parents kind of were on
• 37:52
  to this a little bit. And so they're like, we're just
• 37:53
  going to cut this off because. Well, this is it's actually
• 37:55
  happened quite a while before that actually started to happen.
• 37:59
  Are these men that you were? Most of them were.
• 38:02
  So you're a girl who's having all these other issues, things
• 38:06
  you're experiencing. You're having is online
• 38:09
  relationships with these older men who are basically praying on
• 38:12
  probably your vulnerabilities on the Internet.
• 38:15
  And. But you still thought you were a
• 38:17
  boy at that point. Yeah.
• 38:19
  So did you think you were a gay boy?
• 38:21
  Yeah, I just, I mean, I was like they.
• 38:29
  Think you were a girl or a boy? My parents.
• 38:32
  No, no, the people, these, these relate these on these older men
• 38:35
  on the Internet. Well, they just affirmed my
• 38:39
  identity and just went along with me calling myself a boy.
• 38:42
  So they knew you were a young girl who was struggling with
• 38:45
  gender dysphoria. And do you, did you know
• 38:49
  anything about them? Do you think there there's a
• 38:50
  particular sort of psychological type you were talking to that
• 38:53
  found you particularly attractive because you were
• 38:56
  going through this? I mean, it was all sorts of
• 38:59
  different people, but a lot of them were identifying as LGBT.
• 39:03
  A lot of them called themselves like gay or bisexual.
• 39:05
  Some of them were trans identified males.
• 39:08
  And what does that mean? They're trans women.
• 39:12
  They call themselves they're they're biological males
• 39:14
  identify as women. So a biological male identifying
• 39:18
  as a woman who is attracted to a young woman identifying as a
• 39:22
  young boy. So it's still biological male to
• 39:26
  biological woman. It's just a very roundabout way
• 39:29
  of having a straight relationship, basically.
• 39:32
  It's a lot of work for a straight relationship.
• 39:35
  So how old were you when you had your first online relationship
• 39:38
  with somebody who was much older and how much older approximately
• 39:41
  were they? I was probably 14 ish 1314 and a
• 39:52
  lot of them weren't necessarily like relationships.
• 39:54
  Some of them were just like short, I guess you'd call them
• 39:58
  flings or like I would just like exchange like like sex or like
• 40:03
  nudes with them. And how old were they?
• 40:07
  Anywhere from like my age to like late teens, maybe early
• 40:13
  20s. There's actually one person who
• 40:16
  was he was in his mid 20s and he was in the military.
• 40:20
  OK. And, and in most of those cases
• 40:24
  where they it was all different kinds of men in like some men
• 40:28
  who identified as women, but otherwise just some were them
• 40:30
  for. The most part it was just, it
• 40:33
  was just men, OK, and a lot of them would call themselves like
• 40:36
  gay or bisexual, but. Because you thought you were a
• 40:39
  boy. Yeah, Yeah.
• 40:40
  I think that they kind of did that to lure me in a little bit,
• 40:44
  to ease me a little bit by affirming my addendi, but they
• 40:51
  were still attracted to women and it was just part of their
• 40:53
  ploy to exploit me sexually. Have you heard of
• 40:57
  autogynophilia? Yeah.
• 40:59
  What do you think about it? It's kind of a it's a very
• 41:03
  open-ended question. I mean, do you think that that
• 41:05
  it's a do you think that affected you or do you think
• 41:07
  that it affects a lot of people who struggle with gender
• 41:11
  dysphoria? I mean, I probably to an extent
• 41:15
  had like a female equivalent of it, which I guess would be
• 41:18
  called auto androphilia. I mean, I was mostly attracted
• 41:24
  to men, but sometimes I would have like fantasies where that
• 41:30
  that involved women and that I was the male in the situation
• 41:36
  and that might have been part of it.
• 41:41
  And I think that's really just like a normal part of, I
• 41:47
  wouldn't want to call it like exploration or experimentation,
• 41:51
  but I wouldn't say that's really something that's like clinically
• 41:54
  significant. But I also had research like
• 42:01
  medical transition and taking testosterone a little bit.
• 42:04
  And I really liked imagine the way that I would look on
• 42:10
  testosterone. I liked having, I was looking
• 42:13
  forward to like having more muscle and looking more
• 42:16
  masculine and having some of the changes of testosterone on my
• 42:19
  body. But none of that was really
• 42:25
  explored. Like they would ask like what my
• 42:28
  sexuality was, who I was attracted to, but they would
• 42:31
  never really, they would never really factor that into how that
• 42:36
  might affect my gender dysphoria or my desire to transition.
• 42:41
  They meaning the therapist. Yeah, and I was still mostly
• 42:45
  attracted to men, but I was just too young and too deluded to
• 42:50
  know how this would affect my ability to get into relationship
• 42:54
  with a man. Nobody had really brought that
• 42:56
  up with me. Meaning for you to transition
• 43:01
  and we're going to talk about what that what those exact steps
• 43:03
  were for you, but for you to transition.
• 43:04
  It was never really discussed what that would mean in a future
• 43:09
  relationship or even a marriage to a man.
• 43:11
  Yeah, I mean, but endocrinologist told me like
• 43:15
  while you might experience vaginal atrophy, she told us to
• 43:20
  a 13 year old expecting her to know what that meant.
• 43:22
  And what I knew of it was like, OK, it causes the walls, the
• 43:30
  lining of the vagina to thin out a little bit and dry out a
• 43:33
  little bit and not produce as much lubrication.
• 43:35
  And it might cause some pain if I were ever to have sex, but
• 43:39
  that's OK because I could just use lubrication or if it got bad
• 43:45
  enough, or I could prevent the I could prevent it from getting
• 43:48
  bad enough by taking topical estrogen at some point to
• 43:52
  counteract. The testosterone.
• 43:53
  Yeah, yeah. And it only effects that area of
• 43:57
  the body, maybe like a little bit of the estrogen would get
• 43:59
  into the bloodstream, but not enough to really affect the rest
• 44:01
  of the body. But I did that.
• 44:06
  I wasn't informed that this atrophy actually would affect
• 44:09
  the general pelvic region and I I started getting really bad
• 44:16
  cramps in my uterus from time to time and the topical estrogen
• 44:20
  made that go away for the most part.
• 44:21
  But I was also having some issues with my urinary tract and
• 44:26
  I started getting a lot of infections and sometimes I would
• 44:32
  even get like blood or towards the end of my transition tissue
• 44:36
  in my urine. From taking testosterone.
• 44:40
  Yeah. And it got a little bit, it got
• 44:42
  worse for a little while after I stopped taking it.
• 44:44
  It's gotten better since, but I still have some issues with my
• 44:48
  urinary tract. Like I don't really get
• 44:49
  infections or anything like that anymore.
• 44:51
  No blood clots, no tissue. But it's still kind of difficult
• 44:56
  to like fully like empty my bladder or I have to use
• 44:59
  restroom a little bit more frequently than the average
• 45:03
  woman. And I was also told that it
• 45:09
  might affect my fertility. Again, I was 13.
• 45:14
  I wasn't thinking about having kids.
• 45:17
  So it was just like, I don't want to do that.
• 45:19
  I don't want to have kids. And if I wanted to in the
• 45:22
  future, I mean, I could just use like a like a surrogate or IVF,
• 45:26
  right? Because I thought it was that
• 45:28
  simple. I thought those technologies
• 45:31
  were flawless and that there would always be another option
• 45:36
  for me. Did they explain what that
• 45:38
  really meant? Like this could kill your
• 45:40
  fertility, so that means you will never be able to bear,
• 45:44
  carry, gestate, deliver, birth your own child.
• 45:49
  There was never a. Discussion of that she.
• 45:51
  Didn't really go into detail at all.
• 45:52
  And before my my mastectomy, I was told like, I'm not going to
• 45:57
  be able to breastfeed my kids ever.
• 45:58
  But I was living in the mindset of being a male.
• 46:01
  Why would I want to breastfeed a kid, right if I was, if I wanted
• 46:05
  to be a father rather than a mother?
• 46:07
  Because what father does that? That's the mother's will.
• 46:10
  And I'm not. I'm not a mother.
• 46:12
  But you still were attracted to men, right?
• 46:15
  Yeah. So if you got married, in your
• 46:17
  mind, maybe you're thinking, well, I would marry a man.
• 46:21
  Yeah, as I got older, it was like, well, if I were to have
• 46:25
  kids one day, what would they call me?
• 46:28
  It would kind of confusing to call both parents dad I mean.
• 46:35
  And you thought you would just have someone else a surrogate?
• 46:38
  You'd have a child through IVF and surrogacy.
• 46:40
  Yeah, I thought they could just, I wanted to have biological kids
• 46:43
  still, but I thought they could just like extract the eggs from
• 46:46
  my body and then plant in another woman's body and it
• 46:49
  would just be that simple because I was naive.
• 46:52
  I was an adolescent. Yeah.
• 46:55
  How old are you when you had a double mastectomy?
• 46:57
  I was 15. OK, that's such a crazy thing to
• 47:01
  so many people listening. And who did the double vasect
• 47:05
  double mastectomy? I had it with a with a surgeon
• 47:10
  in my healthcare provider. What was the healthcare provider
• 47:13
  that approved this? Kaiser Permanente?
• 47:15
  OK, which one? Which Kaiser?
• 47:20
  The hospital that I underwent surgery at was in San Rafael, so
• 47:23
  in like the Oakland, San Francisco area.
• 47:27
  It's so crazy because I have family that has used Kaiser in
• 47:31
  that area and I've been to Kaiser in that area because I
• 47:34
  used to live in the East Bay. What year was it when you had
• 47:36
  the double mastectomy? It was 2020.
• 47:39
  So during COVID, yeah. So they were doing double.
• 47:43
  So they were delaying hold on. During COVID they were delaying
• 47:49
  like knee surgeries for people in chronic pain because of
• 47:53
  COVID, Right. But they were giving a 15 year
• 47:56
  old healthy girl double mastectomy.
• 48:03
  Yep, this was in June so most of the lockdowns were only barely
• 48:09
  starting to to open back up again and they also.
• 48:17
  Women who delivered children during that time couldn't even
• 48:20
  have their husband in the room. What that was a thing that was
• 48:25
  AI knew about the knee surgery thing, but not.
• 48:27
  And you had to wear a mask the whole time.
• 48:29
  I mean there was you couldn't. If someone was dying, your loved
• 48:32
  one was dying in the hospital, you couldn't go see them.
• 48:35
  But they gave a healthy 15 year old girl.
• 48:38
  Right. Anything considered elective or
• 48:41
  unnecessary wasn't done during this time, but apparently this
• 48:45
  was necessary. It was life saving care.
• 48:48
  They said even though they did examinations of my breast tissue
• 48:53
  before and after and when they actually looked at the tissue
• 48:57
  afterward, after taking it out, they, I remember in the
• 49:01
  appointment afterward, they told me, like they told me
• 49:03
  specifically that there weren't any signs of, of cancer.
• 49:07
  And even though that wasn't the reason why I underwent the
• 49:09
  surgery, it was just part of the protocol to tell me that.
• 49:13
  So I was perfectly healthy. It was healthy tissue that it
• 49:15
  took out of me. Do you think about was that now
• 49:21
  from the vantage point that you have now looking back on that,
• 49:25
  Is it traumatizing to think about?
• 49:27
  Absolutely. It's horrifying.
• 49:31
  Like I, I just shouldn't have been able to.
• 49:37
  This shouldn't have been an option for me.
• 49:42
  It hurts knowing like I I could have just grown up without any
• 49:51
  intervention and I could have been completely normal and I
• 49:57
  wouldn't be dealing with all this stuff that I am now.
• 49:59
  I'm having some pretty serious complications from my surgery on
• 50:04
  top of all the the trauma that it's caused me.
• 50:08
  And if somebody just told me like this isn't going to make
• 50:13
  you into a boy and there's no guarantee that doing any of this
• 50:17
  is going to resolve your distress.
• 50:21
  You're perfect as you are as a woman.
• 50:25
  The issue isn't your body, it's the way that you think of it.
• 50:31
  And no matter what you, what you do to yourself, what drugs you
• 50:34
  take, what, what surgeries you get, you're always going to be a
• 50:38
  woman and you are enough. I won't be dealing with any of
• 50:45
  this right now. Did anyone say that to you?
• 50:51
  I mean, there were times when growing up when my mom would
• 50:54
  tell me like, oh, I was a tomboy, too.
• 50:57
  It's OK, like I eventually grew up and I'm the way that I am
• 51:05
  now. So you'll, you'll probably be
• 51:08
  just like me. But I, I was, I was a kid and I,
• 51:12
  there is still something, even hearing stuff like that, I still
• 51:16
  felt like there was something wrong with me because I still
• 51:18
  had a lot of other stuff going on.
• 51:21
  I thought that this is the only answer I had and it was the only
• 51:25
  one that was presented to me. So the first therapist you went
• 51:28
  to immediately tells you, immediately starts the
• 51:32
  affirmation, which in the state of California, my understanding
• 51:35
  is you have to. Affirm the one legal approach.
• 51:39
  And and the word affirm is so deceptive because affirm what?
• 51:44
  You're not actually affirming them.
• 51:46
  So you're actually. We're just letting them believe
• 51:49
  that there's something that they're not.
• 51:51
  And it's not just a delusion, though it's it's something that
• 51:54
  leads it's a roadway to severe harm.
• 51:59
  It's, I mean really, it's a lifelong, A lifelong path of
• 52:06
  medical intervention. So what was your first
• 52:10
  experience being put on testosterone?
• 52:12
  How soon after you tell your parents, your boy, you go to the
• 52:14
  therapist? How?
• 52:16
  How quickly did they put you on testosterone?
• 52:21
  I'd say maybe like two or three months after I was formally
• 52:25
  diagnosed with gender dysphoria was when I started telling my
• 52:28
  parents, like, I really want to get hormones.
• 52:32
  I really want to go down. I want to become a real boy,
• 52:36
  basically. And that was when they were
• 52:39
  starting to get really, really suspicious.
• 52:41
  Like, why do you feel this way? What is it that's making you
• 52:46
  feel like you have to be a boy that you were?
• 52:50
  Asking me those questions. Right.
• 52:53
  Why do you feel like you have to go down?
• 52:54
  Why do you feel like you have to take these treatments?
• 52:56
  Like you're, you're really young and you might not know what you
• 53:02
  you really want and we don't make it.
• 53:03
  We don't want you making permanent decisions at the age
• 53:05
  that you are. But I just kept pushing and
• 53:07
  pushing and they were really concerned.
• 53:09
  So they went to my doctors and they're like, why, Why she's why
• 53:14
  is she pushing so hard for this? Why does she want to do this so
• 53:17
  bad? And don't we have another
• 53:20
  option? Like why does she have to go
• 53:25
  down this path that at such a young age?
• 53:28
  Why can't we just wait until she's 18?
• 53:30
  And what's the likelihood that she's going to regret this if we
• 53:33
  don't? And my doctors are like, I mean,
• 53:40
  it's not normal for kids to I'm sure, you know, as a parent,
• 53:44
  like it's not normal for a kid to to push, push for this so
• 53:47
  much. It's clear that she knows what
• 53:48
  she wants. I mean, if you don't affirm her
• 53:56
  her identity and allow her to to make this decision, if you don't
• 54:01
  let her transition, it's very likely that she's going to kill
• 54:03
  herself. So your parents who sound like
• 54:07
  they were trying to deal with the situation as best they could
• 54:11
  and they were concerned, you know, this sounds quick and soon
• 54:16
  when you're how old are you, 12 at this time?
• 54:19
  13. You're 13 years old and they're
• 54:23
  asking the doctors, and is this a psychiatrist that you're
• 54:27
  talking to or a psychologist? Who what is The Who who?
• 54:31
  Who told who first told your parents that basically a threat
• 54:36
  to your parents that Chloe will kill, probably themselves.
• 54:40
  I don't know what you know what pronoun they used, but or
• 54:42
  himself. I don't know the name you were
• 54:44
  using, but. Leo.
• 54:45
  Leo if you if you don't let Leo be Leo, meaning get these
• 54:51
  surgeries and take testosterone, then Chloe will basically die.
• 54:56
  When they told me about this, they only told me about this
• 55:02
  recently. I didn't know that this happened
• 55:04
  until after I stopped transitioning and the way that
• 55:07
  they spoke about it sounded like there were multiple doctors that
• 55:09
  would speak that they were speaking to so I'm assuming it
• 55:10
  was a gender specialist and maybe like a nurse in the room.
• 55:15
  So they went to talk to a gender specialist because they just
• 55:16
  didn't know what to do. Felt over their heads.
• 55:18
  I mean probably felt very overwhelming for them.
• 55:21
  This is also during COVID. No, this happened before I
• 55:26
  started medically transitioning. OK, 'cause that OK, 'cause that
• 55:30
  the mastectomy was during COVID, early COVID, Yeah.
• 55:33
  And that they and they're basically told that their
• 55:36
  daughter would could die. Yeah.
• 55:39
  It was made out to be a life or death situation.
• 55:42
  And So what did your parents do after they were told that?
• 55:45
  They were sold into it. They really didn't think there
• 55:48
  was any other option 'cause they weren't given one.
• 55:52
  And so then after you start testosterone, what happens next?
• 55:57
  About a month before I was put on testosterone, I was put on
• 56:01
  puberty blockers to stop my body from naturally producing any
• 56:08
  hormones and just clearing them out to make way for the
• 56:10
  exogenous hormones. And that was really tough.
• 56:13
  It was. It was a chemically induced
• 56:19
  menopause, actually. So I was experiencing like hot
• 56:25
  flashes, itching. I was very lethargic, very
• 56:28
  sleepy throughout the day, and it just wasn't a pleasant
• 56:32
  experience. And I really just wanted to move
• 56:38
  on to the next big step, which was testosterone.
• 56:41
  And so after that month or so long period of being completely
• 56:46
  devoid of sex hormones and almost kind of sickly even.
• 56:49
  Back of my body and. It was androgen, so it felt
• 56:52
  pretty amazing. I mean, I felt like I was on top
• 56:54
  of the world like I was. It really helped to to boost my
• 56:57
  confidence and I had my energy levels are back up and better
• 57:01
  than ever. And I started to feel almost
• 57:06
  sort of like a competitive streak and like a competitive
• 57:11
  streak, like I'm going to crush. This being a boy thing.
• 57:13
  Yeah. Yeah, it did.
• 57:17
  I also, it was, it was, it was like to me, it was like a big
• 57:21
  step. So naturally I would feel
• 57:23
  pretty, pretty giddy about it. I also had a pretty steep
• 57:27
  increase in my libido, which was pretty difficult for me to deal
• 57:30
  with. Had you already at this point
• 57:33
  had? Your period, yeah.
• 57:38
  I. Had only been having them for
• 57:40
  about. Like a year by that point.
• 57:42
  I started getting periods when I was about 12 years old and it
• 57:46
  was so early that my cycle hadn't even regulated itself
• 57:49
  yet. And I also didn't know that
• 57:53
  there was more than just one stage in the.
• 57:55
  Menstrual cycle like all. I knew.
• 58:00
  All I knew is that. There's a period and then.
• 58:02
  That's it. Somehow you can get pregnant.
• 58:04
  I didn't know how that works at all.
• 58:06
  No one ever told you no, and I didn't.
• 58:09
  None of my sex Ed. Classes ever addressed it.
• 58:12
  I learned what I learned what ovulation was from a meme when I
• 58:15
  was 16 years old. What did you learn in your sex
• 58:17
  Ed classes? How to have sex?
• 58:20
  No, it was. It was really bare.
• 58:23
  Bones honestly, like we learned about gametes and then the most
• 58:28
  we're ever shown about sex was like, don't have sex.
• 58:32
  We're not going to explain why, but you can't have sex.
• 58:35
  Don't do that. And then and then they they
• 58:38
  showed us like a video of a woman giving birth and like
• 58:42
  pictures of like of genitalia, both male and female infected
• 58:47
  with studs. But they.
• 58:51
  Never explained why things. Like sex are so important or
• 58:55
  intimate or or even fertility. How your body works as a woman.
• 59:00
  Or a man's fertility. How that works?
• 59:05
  So I was being expected to make. Decisions around things like
• 59:10
  that that I didn't even understand yet, and they didn't
• 59:14
  make any effort to explain those things to me.
• 59:16
  So there was no informed consent?
• 59:18
  Absolutely not. And how?
• 59:19
  Can you consent when you're a minor in the 1st place?
• 59:23
  You can't. So you're on testosterone?
• 59:27
  When did you decide? You wanted the double
• 59:29
  mastectomy? I was about two.
• 59:33
  Between like 2 to. Three years on on testosterone,
• 59:39
  I had been using like a. Binder through that time I.
• 59:42
  Started using one after I started taking testosterone and
• 59:45
  if you don't know what a binder is, it's kind of like they come
• 59:50
  in either half body or full body and.
• 59:51
  It kind of looks like a tank top.
• 59:52
  But in the upper part of the garment, it's like a compression
• 59:56
  area and they work by basically pressing the breasts into the
• 1:00:01
  upper body to make it look flatter and on one hand like.
• 1:00:08
  I didn't really want. To be seen without it on under
• 1:00:12
  my shirt 'cause I didn't want anybody to know that I had
• 1:00:14
  breasts, 'cause I want everybody to think of me as a guy.
• 1:00:18
  And I already did look like a male.
• 1:00:21
  I testosterone was pretty effective on me and I passed
• 1:00:24
  considerably well as the opposite sex.
• 1:00:25
  I actually had a much deeper voice than I did now, and it was
• 1:00:29
  deeper than most of the boys then that I was friends with
• 1:00:33
  throughout high school, so it would be really weird.
• 1:00:37
  For. This person who looks and sounds
• 1:00:40
  just like a guy to have this very feminine looking area of
• 1:00:45
  the body and but I was I was also very uncomfortable.
• 1:00:50
  In it like it. It fit well.
• 1:00:54
  It didn't really cause me any pain per SE, but I, I, I heard
• 1:00:57
  like from other trans trans identified females like how they
• 1:01:01
  would experience pain in their back, in the upper back, in
• 1:01:05
  their, in their breasts and load their chest in the rib cage from
• 1:01:10
  using one. I never got any of that.
• 1:01:12
  So I thought it was just fine, but it actually distorted my rib
• 1:01:16
  cage a little bit. And even now it's, it's been two
• 1:01:19
  or three years since I've used a binder and I still see like a
• 1:01:23
  little, I wouldn't say like dense.
• 1:01:27
  But the bottom of my rib cage, kind of.
• 1:01:28
  Flares out a little bit because they I used a.
• 1:01:34
  Supposedly. Safe and reputable brand, but
• 1:01:42
  these. Things work.
• 1:01:45
  By pushing the breasts. Into the rib cage.
• 1:01:48
  And especially if you're developing.
• 1:01:50
  There is no Safeway. To go about that, it's like it's
• 1:01:54
  like foot binding. You know, it's just it.
• 1:01:58
  It it's now it's just binding. Something else?
• 1:02:02
  To fit into. The society to kind of fit.
• 1:02:05
  Basically in order to fit in to society's expectations as you're
• 1:02:09
  as you're experiencing them in a more backwards way even.
• 1:02:15
  So you're doing that and then but what made you?
• 1:02:17
  Decide to get the mastectomy. I just got really sick of of
• 1:02:21
  doing it after a while and. I started to think of myself as
• 1:02:25
  being just like any other boy and I wanted to be able to take
• 1:02:30
  my shirt off like all the other boys without worrying and I also
• 1:02:41
  had an incident in 8th grade where I had been sexually.
• 1:02:46
  Assaulted by somebody who had been.
• 1:02:47
  Harassed who had been bullying me throughout for transitioning
• 1:02:50
  throughout the school year and I didn't really realize just so
• 1:02:53
  much. It affected me.
• 1:02:55
  Because I was, I was already transitioning by that point.
• 1:03:00
  I was already living. I was already in the mindset of
• 1:03:04
  actually being a boy. So it was like, well, I just
• 1:03:07
  have to be tough about it. I can't.
• 1:03:09
  I can't, I can't be too upset about this.
• 1:03:12
  And so a guy another eighth grade.
• 1:03:16
  Boy, Yeah, and he sexually assaulted you.
• 1:03:20
  I mean, how can you share? Obviously, I can only imagine
• 1:03:23
  how traumatic it was or whatever you're comfortable sharing.
• 1:03:25
  He groped me. He.
• 1:03:27
  He just walked up to me in the middle of the.
• 1:03:28
  Classroom. And he squeezed my breasts.
• 1:03:30
  He looked me right in the eyes as he did it.
• 1:03:33
  And were there other people there?
• 1:03:35
  Yeah, the classroom is full. And yet nobody did a thing about
• 1:03:37
  it. That's horrific.
• 1:03:41
  Did that was the teacher. There, Yeah, he didn't.
• 1:03:44
  He didn't see what happened, though.
• 1:03:46
  And I was afraid to report it to any staff members because I was
• 1:03:51
  afraid of getting in trouble myself.
• 1:03:53
  I the school I went to just sucked and they failed to
• 1:04:01
  accommodate me throughout the school years.
• 1:04:03
  I had an IP in place that they just refused to abide by.
• 1:04:05
  And at one point they even told my parents like it's it's our
• 1:04:11
  responsibility to help the child and not you.
• 1:04:15
  And I didn't really have a lot of a lot of friends there.
• 1:04:19
  And I was even among like the like the teachers and staff
• 1:04:22
  members. I wasn't really one of the, I
• 1:04:25
  wasn't like a favorite kid by any means.
• 1:04:31
  And I felt like if, if I did report it, like they'd probably
• 1:04:34
  just let the kid off of the slap on the wrist.
• 1:04:36
  And I didn't know like if he was going to come back after like a
• 1:04:41
  few days, after a week, and if he could potentially do
• 1:04:44
  something worse to me if he did. I just didn't want to, I didn't
• 1:04:49
  want to try it. Do you think there's any
• 1:04:52
  connection between? Being groped.
• 1:04:55
  Having your breasts groped as a teen girl who's going through
• 1:04:58
  gender dysphoria and all these other things that you're going
• 1:05:00
  through and getting the mastectomy.
• 1:05:03
  That's why I started binding. Actually, I didn't use a binder
• 1:05:05
  up until. That point, that was what
• 1:05:07
  triggered it for me. To protect yourself.
• 1:05:10
  Yeah, it was. Literally.
• 1:05:11
  Putting on, kind of. Like an armor, Yeah, I mean.
• 1:05:14
  I knew it like at one point I wanted to.
• 1:05:18
  Start hiding my breasts. But I just kind of.
• 1:05:21
  Kind of put it off because it was like, well, like, I'm not as
• 1:05:24
  developed as some girls, right? And I wear like baggy T-shirts
• 1:05:29
  and sweatshirts anyways, so nobody's really going to care.
• 1:05:34
  Why would they care? Like they already knew me as a
• 1:05:36
  girl, like they already know like I'm biologically female, so
• 1:05:39
  why would why would anybody give a crap about that?
• 1:05:43
  And then that happened. It was like, OK, I guess we'll
• 1:05:46
  have to start heart start hiding this part of me sooner than
• 1:05:49
  later. I'm so sorry that happened to
• 1:05:52
  you. Did you did any?
• 1:05:56
  Did you, did your therapist know?
• 1:05:57
  That that happened to you, did you?
• 1:05:58
  Were you able to share that with anyone?
• 1:05:59
  No, I didn't tell anybody, any adults about it.
• 1:06:01
  Did any of therapists? Ever ask you about?
• 1:06:04
  Any kind of sexual abuse or. Sexual assault they.
• 1:06:07
  Probably did at some point, but I didn't recognize this as a.
• 1:06:10
  Sexual assault, it just didn't register me to me at the time
• 1:06:13
  that it was because when I when I thought.
• 1:06:17
  Of sexual assault, I would think of like all the.
• 1:06:19
  Stories I heard from like other girls and women growing up of
• 1:06:23
  being like raped or beaten. It was nothing of that sort of
• 1:06:26
  like something worse could happen to me.
• 1:06:28
  It wasn't the end of the world, right?
• 1:06:30
  So, but he's publicly squeezing your breasts to mock you.
• 1:06:34
  And shame you and. No one's intervening or doing
• 1:06:39
  anything and he just what? Happened next.
• 1:06:41
  He just walked off. Yep.
• 1:06:45
  So. After you get the mastectomy,
• 1:06:49
  what happens? How did you feel?
• 1:06:54
  I mean. In the.
• 1:06:55
  Immediate moments after. I actually woke up a few times.
• 1:07:00
  Before the medication fully wore.
• 1:07:01
  Off and I would try to stand up a little too quickly and they,
• 1:07:06
  they, they made me lay back down and go to sleep a few times
• 1:07:10
  because of that. And I almost, yeah, I almost, I
• 1:07:13
  almost threw up a few times to that.
• 1:07:15
  But once I was like fully awake and fully conscious and like, I
• 1:07:22
  was aware of what just happened. It was the greatest thing in the
• 1:07:27
  world. Like I'm I.
• 1:07:30
  Finally look like a real boy now.
• 1:07:32
  Maybe not right now. I mean they I've got these big
• 1:07:37
  scars across my chest. And these skin?
• 1:07:39
  Grafts that are going to take some time to heal, but
• 1:07:42
  eventually I'm going to look like I'm going to be just like
• 1:07:46
  any other boy, but I'm going to have these warrior scars on top
• 1:07:49
  of it and I'm finally going. To be able to to take my.
• 1:07:54
  Shirt off in the locker room and not have to wear a shirt.
• 1:08:01
  Not have to. Cover up while I swim.
• 1:08:03
  Or go on a jog or workout and it's going to be great from here
• 1:08:08
  on. And I mean that was.
• 1:08:14
  A very convenient, very happy way of looking at it.
• 1:08:16
  But that never happened. I'm I'm still healing.
• 1:08:21
  What do you mean? I mean.
• 1:08:29
  I've had some issues. With my skin grafts over the
• 1:08:31
  years, at first there were the skin grafts I use where my.
• 1:08:36
  My areolas so they. They took, they took them off
• 1:08:39
  and they, the way it was described to me, I guess they,
• 1:08:46
  they said it in such a way to make it easier for like a
• 1:08:48
  teenager to digest. But it was like, OK, so we'll,
• 1:08:52
  we'll take your areolas off and then we'll scrape the skin on a
• 1:08:56
  part of the chest kind of like a like a deep knee straight, but.
• 1:09:01
  More controlled and then we're. Going to place the aerials onto
• 1:09:03
  that, onto that area, so it's in a more masculine position, they
• 1:09:07
  said. And at first.
• 1:09:11
  The the. Graphs seem to be healing OK,
• 1:09:14
  other than the fact that they were.
• 1:09:17
  Superficially they were. They're a little bit dry on top,
• 1:09:20
  but as of last year. Around this time.
• 1:09:26
  They did a 180 and they've started to leak fluid.
• 1:09:34
  Just do you know what that? Means have you talked to a
• 1:09:35
  doctor about that? I've tried.
• 1:09:38
  I mean, I went to. My.
• 1:09:42
  I went to. I went back to my.
• 1:09:43
  Surgeon for the first time in a few years.
• 1:09:46
  And I tried to to get his help, I got like a 5 minute zoom.
• 1:09:51
  Fall with him. And that appointment was for two
• 1:09:55
  purposes. One to.
• 1:09:58
  To report that I regretted the surgery and two to get some
• 1:10:02
  help. With my complications and.
• 1:10:03
  Maybe figure out whatever is going on and the whole time it
• 1:10:09
  felt like he was being really rude to me, really dismissive of
• 1:10:12
  my concerns and I was telling him like I'm having to bandage
• 1:10:18
  my. Chest every day.
• 1:10:19
  So that whatever this food is doesn't get on to my clothing
• 1:10:22
  and bedding. And he just told me, yeah.
• 1:10:26
  Yeah, keep doing that. Yeah, that's, that's, that's
• 1:10:30
  normal. Just just keep, just keep
• 1:10:32
  managing it and put some Vaseline on it and keep it
• 1:10:35
  moist. This is how many years after the
• 1:10:37
  surgery? 2 years so.
• 1:10:39
  It's been 2 years since the surgery and you're.
• 1:10:41
  Still. Experiencing this.
• 1:10:43
  Yeah, I was. My grafts were supposed.
• 1:10:46
  To be mostly fully healed by around a year and a half and.
• 1:10:56
  Did he have an any explanation for why it was happening?
• 1:10:59
  No, there is zero. He did.
• 1:11:01
  This to you and he didn't know he.
• 1:11:03
  Had zero clue about why and he just said perpetually bandage
• 1:11:06
  yourself. Yeah, for a wound that I
• 1:11:08
  created, yes. On a 15 year old girl, I didn't
• 1:11:12
  What a what? A butcher.
• 1:11:15
  I tried to look up whatever. Whatever's happening, Yeah, I.
• 1:11:18
  Tried to look up whatever's happening.
• 1:11:19
  I never had heard or seen seen anything like.
• 1:11:23
  This before can you name? Who this surgeon is?
• 1:11:29
  His name is. He has an Asian name.
• 1:11:32
  I'm probably. Going to butcher the.
• 1:11:34
  Pronunciation of this, but I think it's Doctor Lee Hope.
• 1:11:36
  When did you first start doubting your transition?
• 1:11:42
  I didn't really have like any doubts about transitioning up
• 1:11:48
  until after I had the surgery, so for longest time I was very
• 1:11:54
  confident in presenting myself masculinely.
• 1:11:58
  And calling myself a. Boy and being seen as such.
• 1:12:03
  And it wasn't until after my breasts were gone that I started
• 1:12:06
  realizing like, wow, I sometimes I miss being pretty.
• 1:12:11
  I wish that I could grow my hair out and wear makeup without
• 1:12:14
  being judged. Because now everybody thinks I'm
• 1:12:17
  a boy. And if I were to do that, I get
• 1:12:19
  called all sorts of names. People would like, people will
• 1:12:21
  call me gay. I'd get, I'd probably get
• 1:12:24
  harassed for a little bit. There were a few times when my,
• 1:12:28
  my girlfriends put like nail Polish on me.
• 1:12:31
  And then I would, I would go to class and the boy next to me
• 1:12:34
  would be like, why are you wearing nail Polish?
• 1:12:36
  Why are you wearing earrings? Are you gay?
• 1:12:39
  And like I but if I were to consider, wouldn't you have
• 1:12:43
  considered yourself gay because you.
• 1:12:45
  Were still attracted to men, Yeah, I was, but I didn't want
• 1:12:48
  to be seen that way. Because I mean, even though I
• 1:12:52
  live in in California in a pretty, I guess you'd say
• 1:12:56
  progressive time in high schools, especially like there's
• 1:13:00
  still that stigma against people who are gay or even people who
• 1:13:06
  say are male, but they present themselves more femininely vice
• 1:13:09
  versa. And I just didn't want to deal
• 1:13:11
  with that. So.
• 1:13:14
  When did you first? When did you what process did
• 1:13:18
  you go to go through before eventually deciding to
• 1:13:22
  detransition? Eventually my feelings around
• 1:13:25
  around that. Started to I started to go into
• 1:13:32
  a downward. Spiral.
• 1:13:33
  Basically I became more and. More distressed over the way
• 1:13:35
  that I looked every day and I hated that I no longer had soft
• 1:13:40
  feminine features. Now I had muscle and big
• 1:13:42
  shoulders and my breasts were gone and I thought that I wasn't
• 1:13:47
  bothered by my by my mastectomy for the longest but I just
• 1:13:50
  wanted to be pretty and and have curves and other.
• 1:13:55
  Places and to be. Effeminate looking, but I
• 1:14:02
  started. Comparing myself again to other
• 1:14:04
  women. And feeling like I just didn't
• 1:14:07
  match up. And I was also comparing myself
• 1:14:10
  to other men as well. And I realized like, I'm all for
• 1:14:20
  one. I'm, I'm pretty, I'm pretty
• 1:14:21
  short. I'm like 5 foot 35 foot 4, which
• 1:14:24
  is like a pretty average height for a woman, but that's way
• 1:14:27
  shorter than the average male. So that would be, that would be
• 1:14:31
  kind of strange. And now that I was presenting
• 1:14:37
  myself as a guy, I mean, I wasn't bad looking and there
• 1:14:42
  were quite a few girls who thought that I was attractive,
• 1:14:45
  but I didn't really have anything, any attraction to
• 1:14:49
  them. And he, I felt like, like even
• 1:14:52
  if I did want to pursue a girl, I'm not.
• 1:14:57
  Actually a biological. Male.
• 1:14:58
  I don't have the parts that they're looking for and I don't
• 1:15:01
  want to. I don't want to disappoint
• 1:15:03
  anybody. And the few boys at school who
• 1:15:09
  were attracted to me were. Not the most.
• 1:15:15
  Savoury of people, a lot of them more like really into drugs or
• 1:15:22
  like they it kind of felt like I was.
• 1:15:27
  Almost like a. Fetish to them, like I was like
• 1:15:30
  I literally a boy but like I was small, of a short stature,
• 1:15:36
  skinny and they didn't always see me as much more than that.
• 1:15:42
  Do you think pornography played a role?
• 1:15:46
  Yeah, probably for those boys. That's that's probably.
• 1:15:50
  Part of it did it. Play any role do.
• 1:15:52
  You think in your? Transition.
• 1:15:54
  Yeah, it was. It really distorted my view of
• 1:15:57
  like. Sex and intimacy, but also my
• 1:16:00
  own body. And it's going to sound kind of
• 1:16:05
  funny, but BuzzFeed and other, other publications like that
• 1:16:09
  really, really made that a lot worse.
• 1:16:12
  Because I, I first discovered like BuzzFeed and other like
• 1:16:15
  those kinds of sites through like when I was a kid by looking
• 1:16:18
  up, I don't know, like which Disney Princess am I?
• 1:16:22
  And then they have like all those quizzes, but then they
• 1:16:24
  have the other less appropriate content on there, especially
• 1:16:30
  about things like sex. And from those there would be
• 1:16:33
  articles like encouraging, like teenage girls, like younger and
• 1:16:37
  younger. To explore.
• 1:16:39
  Their sexuality and what they like as early as possible and
• 1:16:44
  that things like casual sex or being kinky are good and we
• 1:16:49
  should all strive to be that way and.
• 1:16:53
  None of it really discussed like.
• 1:16:55
  The real meaning of sex about the about the.
• 1:17:00
  The intimacy of it and why. It's so important and how it's
• 1:17:03
  designed right for for intimacy. And pleasure and for also life,
• 1:17:08
  right It was, it was really like.
• 1:17:11
  Pleasure above all, and pleasure without love.
• 1:17:15
  Which in the end. Doesn't bring pleasure like long
• 1:17:18
  lasting pleasure, which I would call peace or joy or happiness.
• 1:17:22
  Right, right. And it's my distorted view.
• 1:17:26
  Of sex in relationships on top of my inability to get into
• 1:17:31
  relationship because of my transition, I was I, I had a lot
• 1:17:35
  of stress around that because I all my friends were starting to
• 1:17:38
  get boyfriends and girlfriends and I was missing out on that.
• 1:17:41
  And I felt like I was a freak or something like there was
• 1:17:43
  something wrong with me. And so I compensated by getting
• 1:17:46
  into those online relationships, by sexting older, often random
• 1:17:50
  men. And it just it all.
• 1:17:53
  Worked to to make me. Feel so much worse.
• 1:17:57
  And it was difficult socially. For reasons other than.
• 1:18:04
  Than romance. Now it was a lot.
• 1:18:08
  Harder to. To make friends.
• 1:18:12
  To be as. Intimate as it could be as a
• 1:18:15
  girl, because now I was taking on the role of a boy and there
• 1:18:20
  wasn't really a lot of room for me to talk about like my own
• 1:18:23
  personal hardships and what I was going through, and all I
• 1:18:28
  really had was the Internet. At what point did?
• 1:18:32
  You decide I. Want I'm done with this at some.
• 1:18:38
  Point. It was like.
• 1:18:41
  Well, I never felt like I was. Enough when I was a girl.
• 1:18:47
  But I feel the same exact way as a boy now.
• 1:18:51
  I guess I just can't be good enough as either so.
• 1:18:55
  Maybe I'm not either. Maybe.
• 1:18:56
  I'm just non binary, maybe I'm something between the two sexes
• 1:19:04
  but. No matter what I did, no.
• 1:19:06
  Matter what I called myself, or what pronouns I used or how I
• 1:19:09
  how I dressed, I just kept getting worse.
• 1:19:15
  It wasn't up until at some point in my.
• 1:19:20
  Late in my junior year. That I realized just what I was.
• 1:19:26
  Doing to myself. That it was making things worse
• 1:19:30
  and I couldn't go back. And that was when I started to
• 1:19:36
  learn about things like like motherhood and parenting and how
• 1:19:41
  how children's minds develop and how they see the world.
• 1:19:45
  That it was like, wow, this is, I didn't know all this, that
• 1:19:54
  that's really important to me and I want to be a mother one
• 1:19:57
  day, but how am I, if I'm going to, if I'm on these medications
• 1:20:03
  that that might affect my ability to have kids.
• 1:20:08
  And now that I I can't breastfeed, I just realized how
• 1:20:12
  big, just how important that really is, that breasts aren't
• 1:20:17
  just a sexual object, that there's so much more than
• 1:20:21
  something to. Be played with or to feed a
• 1:20:24
  child with because even breastfeeding is very important
• 1:20:29
  to the bond between a. Mother and her child.
• 1:20:31
  And things like, well, breast milk, it has things like like
• 1:20:41
  pre and probiotics in it that help.
• 1:20:42
  Baby's immune system develop. And breasts and physical
• 1:20:47
  affection in general help to regulate a baby's body
• 1:20:50
  temperature and other parts of their health.
• 1:20:55
  And I'm not. Going to have that anymore I
• 1:20:59
  never. I never will.
• 1:21:02
  And it was taken away from me before I even got to become a
• 1:21:05
  woman, before I understood what that meant.
• 1:21:11
  And that was that really horrified me.
• 1:21:15
  I I couldn't keep living like that because now I knew what it
• 1:21:19
  really meant. What when you had that
• 1:21:26
  realization? What?
• 1:21:27
  Did you do? Well, first I went through a
• 1:21:32
  few. A few weeks of just the most
• 1:21:37
  horrific. Distress and not being.
• 1:21:39
  Able to to focus on anything really.
• 1:21:42
  I cried quite a bit and I. Withdrew.
• 1:21:47
  Pretty much completely. And then I finally.
• 1:21:51
  Came to terms of the fact that. I'm still a woman and nothing
• 1:21:59
  could change that. And I I was still kind of stuck
• 1:22:04
  in the mindset. Of.
• 1:22:06
  I could just identify out of whatever I was feeling.
• 1:22:09
  So I didn't really, I was so kind of wondering like, well,
• 1:22:15
  what is? My identity now.
• 1:22:16
  But now my transition was was over for good and I told my mom.
• 1:22:23
  I told a friend of mine. And I just didn't know what to
• 1:22:27
  do with myself for a while. Like, I grew up my hair.
• 1:22:30
  I started buying new clothes. But did you stop taking
• 1:22:34
  testosterone? Yeah, I.
• 1:22:36
  Took my final testosterone shot. Almost.
• 1:22:41
  Two years ago at this point, in May of 20. 21 I was, I was 16
• 1:22:49
  Are you, do you know if you're able to have kids?
• 1:22:53
  I haven't gotten a fertility test yet.
• 1:22:56
  I got my period back about two years, no two months after
• 1:23:01
  stopping testosterone very quickly and my periods seem to
• 1:23:06
  be regular now, which is a good sign And now like based on like
• 1:23:11
  the the symptoms. That I'm experiencing at a given
• 1:23:13
  time. Like I can, I can tell which
• 1:23:14
  part of the cycle I'm at. It's very like.
• 1:23:17
  It's not, it's a. Possibility that I could be
• 1:23:21
  having. And ovulatory cycles, but I
• 1:23:26
  think. I'll be able to conceive a kid.
• 1:23:31
  I just don't know. If like how basically skipping
• 1:23:37
  half of puberty might effects other parts of that like my egg.
• 1:23:42
  Quality, whether my hips. Have expanded enough to safely
• 1:23:45
  naturally give birth, but you started puberty blockers.
• 1:23:51
  Several years into puberty, yeah.
• 1:23:54
  So there are obviously D transitioners who they had
• 1:23:59
  puberty blockers before they even had a puberty.
• 1:24:05
  So I think. That you know, I'm I'm going to
• 1:24:07
  pray. And hope for that for you.
• 1:24:09
  Thank you. What's what's next?
• 1:24:11
  I mean, well before what's next? What's now?
• 1:24:15
  Because you're doing some. Incredible things.
• 1:24:17
  We're just joking earlier about The New York Times is after you
• 1:24:20
  this morning. Oh, that was beautiful.
• 1:24:23
  It's. So beautiful when the media.
• 1:24:24
  When the big one of the biggest papers in the country writes a
• 1:24:26
  hit piece on you on me. I can't say when I started doing
• 1:24:31
  this a year ago. Did I expected anything like
• 1:24:33
  that? But honestly, I wouldn't have it
• 1:24:35
  any other way. Well, it's kind of fun.
• 1:24:38
  Well, the way that getting to know you a little bit, the way
• 1:24:40
  that you. Take it in in stride is awesome.
• 1:24:43
  It's definitely very warrior woman, I mean.
• 1:24:50
  I've already lost. A lot it's I wouldn't say like
• 1:24:52
  my. Attitude is like, I don't have
• 1:24:53
  much more to lose because I still have.
• 1:24:57
  Despite what I've lost, I still. Have a lot there's.
• 1:25:00
  Still a lot in this world for me, but like there's.
• 1:25:07
  I have to get justice for what happened to me, but I also have.
• 1:25:10
  To prevent it from happening to anybody ever again.
• 1:25:15
  Well, you were already doing. Incredible things.
• 1:25:19
  To accomplish that and it's amazing to watch you do that.
• 1:25:22
  It's one of the reasons I was so excited to talk to you.
• 1:25:24
  Thank you so much. You're just getting started.
• 1:25:29
  I believe it. I want to talk about what your
• 1:25:31
  goals. Are with your.
• 1:25:32
  Mission moving forward. But first, the decision for you
• 1:25:36
  to publicly Share your story, which I can only imagine how
• 1:25:41
  much courage that took. You made that decision about a
• 1:25:44
  year ago, right? Yeah.
• 1:25:46
  So it's been one year since you've been publicly sharing
• 1:25:50
  your story. Just over a year.
• 1:25:51
  What was that like to 1st publicly Share your story of
• 1:25:56
  detransitioning? Yeah, I mean.
• 1:26:01
  A while after I stopped transitioning I knew like I
• 1:26:05
  wanted to to start talking about my story but I didn't really
• 1:26:09
  know where to start so I would just I immediately after I did
• 1:26:16
  transition I was pretty much kicked out by the trans
• 1:26:20
  community. For.
• 1:26:21
  Being in a what's the word an apostate and they just.
• 1:26:29
  They called you an apostate. No, but they.
• 1:26:32
  Treated me as such. Because just violated the
• 1:26:35
  fundamental rule of. Their religion which is gender
• 1:26:40
  for main care is healthcare. And you dared to criticize the.
• 1:26:45
  Surgeon that cut off your healthy breasts.
• 1:26:47
  I mean, before that I would just talk.
• 1:26:50
  About the pain and regret that came from it and how I felt like
• 1:26:55
  my doctors lied to me and they did and I was told like you
• 1:27:02
  should have known exactly what you.
• 1:27:03
  Were doing you knew what you were.
• 1:27:04
  Doing for yourself. Don't put this on us, but they
• 1:27:08
  said that it was your only. Option, yeah.
• 1:27:11
  And they and they told you with every, with every.
• 1:27:13
  Step the more extreme it got, the more they celebrated it like
• 1:27:17
  before I think. What do you mean I had my?
• 1:27:20
  Celebrate what is. What did that look like to
• 1:27:22
  celebrate it? When I had my.
• 1:27:26
  Mastectomy that. Was probably the most praise I'd
• 1:27:30
  ever got in my lifetime up until that point.
• 1:27:33
  Like the most I I had was probably like, like my parents
• 1:27:37
  or classmates telling me that they liked my drawings.
• 1:27:41
  It was it was incredible. So now.
• 1:27:47
  Now that. I regret it now that it causes
• 1:27:49
  me pain. They would.
• 1:27:52
  They blamed it on me. And some of them would even make
• 1:27:53
  fun of me for. Regretting it.
• 1:27:55
  I just want to unpack that for a minute because I think that's
• 1:27:57
  such an. Incredibly important experience
• 1:28:00
  that you had, which is that in your entire life, the thing
• 1:28:04
  you'd most been praised for was your art until you had your
• 1:28:07
  mastectomy and then this whole and starting on testosterone and
• 1:28:11
  the other parts of the transition process.
• 1:28:13
  So the thing to affirm about your identity, your humanity?
• 1:28:18
  Most for other people became. That you were on these.
• 1:28:21
  Medical treatments, yeah. And then when you chose to stop
• 1:28:28
  the medical. Treatments and expressed regret.
• 1:28:30
  What happened? What did they do?
• 1:28:32
  What did they say to you? What do they say to you online?
• 1:28:35
  There is, there was this. One person, also a trans
• 1:28:41
  identified female who I had known since I was about 13 and I
• 1:28:48
  think this person had always. Been jealous of me because.
• 1:28:51
  I had I had a loving family. And I was able to get on these
• 1:28:58
  treatments. So early and they weren't always
• 1:29:01
  the nicest to me, but they did celebrate my transition, my
• 1:29:05
  especially my my my mastectomy the most.
• 1:29:10
  And now? That I was regretting it.
• 1:29:13
  They're trying to, like, gaslight me into thinking that
• 1:29:15
  we had a conversation about the difference between body
• 1:29:19
  dysmorphia and real gender dysphoria, whatever that means.
• 1:29:22
  I don't think it's real, personally.
• 1:29:25
  And they even told me like you were 13.
• 1:29:30
  You weren't a toddler. You knew exactly what you're
• 1:29:33
  doing it doing and why you wanted it.
• 1:29:36
  I knew at the same age that I wanted to to transition, so why
• 1:29:40
  wouldn't you? This is your fault.
• 1:29:44
  Doesn't it feel bad? Doesn't it hurt having your
• 1:29:46
  breasts be gone forever and meaning they still had their
• 1:29:53
  breasts? Probably.
• 1:29:55
  Yeah, I. It's pretty twisted.
• 1:30:00
  It was one of the most deranged. Interactions I've ever had
• 1:30:04
  actually, because after at some point after taking out all that
• 1:30:09
  whatever on me, they started crying to me about how they had
• 1:30:13
  been sexually abused at a young age.
• 1:30:15
  They were so close to seeing why this is affecting them so much,
• 1:30:20
  why my regret was affecting them.
• 1:30:22
  So I think it's so clear that this individual had.
• 1:30:28
  Like their? Sexual trauma was influencing
• 1:30:34
  them, their decision in transition, and that's why they
• 1:30:36
  didn't want to be a girl anymore.
• 1:30:39
  And that's I see that I see. That quite a bit.
• 1:30:41
  They were angry that. You were regretting it, Yes,
• 1:30:44
  and. Confidently, in a way of
• 1:30:45
  regretting it, yeah. And I got the same kind of
• 1:30:47
  reaction from a lot of other individuals.
• 1:30:49
  In the trans community, it was like it was all from like older
• 1:30:53
  transgender people, many of them many of whom hadn't even started
• 1:30:57
  on hormones yet. And I was supposedly in the most
• 1:31:01
  ideal situation, a transition like I was super young and I had
• 1:31:08
  a supportive family and friend group around me.
• 1:31:12
  I passed as the opposite sex. Very.
• 1:31:13
  Well, I was pretty much. Indistinguishable from a real
• 1:31:16
  male, and yet. It still hurt.
• 1:31:20
  Me, I still regretted it. So as somebody who wants to live
• 1:31:26
  that kind of lifestyle, there's that sort of cognitive
• 1:31:30
  dissonance in like being told like this is life saving
• 1:31:34
  healthcare and that is the most ideal way to doing it, to do it.
• 1:31:39
  And seeing somebody who had been through exactly that, having
• 1:31:42
  been hurt by it, you shattered their.
• 1:31:47
  You shattered their cult very closely.
• 1:31:49
  I was very close to. But after a while, the response
• 1:31:54
  is anger against you because you're daring to.
• 1:31:57
  To reveal, I think it's very based in fear, Yeah.
• 1:32:00
  So after a wow. I It's kind of like when you and
• 1:32:03
  this is a real phenomenon when. People join cults, then leave.
• 1:32:06
  They become anathema. You know the the cult members.
• 1:32:11
  Have a profound. Hatred and disgust for people
• 1:32:14
  that leave their cult. The ones that stay, Yep, I mean
• 1:32:18
  after. A while I'd been.
• 1:32:20
  Harassed. So much What do that harassment
• 1:32:22
  look like? Sometimes it was like random
• 1:32:25
  people. Dming me stuff.
• 1:32:26
  Like. You look better as a boy or like
• 1:32:29
  you should have stayed a boy or keep that to yourself.
• 1:32:32
  You're disgusting sometimes, like random people, like
• 1:32:35
  stalking me, like leaving me in comments on my posts, on my
• 1:32:38
  personal social media. And I just didn't want to deal
• 1:32:41
  with that anymore. So I went silent about it for a
• 1:32:43
  bit. But I also discovered that
• 1:32:46
  they're all in communities having to do transition and
• 1:32:49
  everything that these the transgender community was was
• 1:32:52
  telling me about the transition was a lie.
• 1:32:56
  And I knew there's so many people out there who were just
• 1:33:00
  like this. What were those lies?
• 1:33:02
  What were two of the top lies that.
• 1:33:04
  They're the the trans community, as you we can call it, was
• 1:33:07
  telling you about D transitioning to try to scare
• 1:33:09
  you off from doing it. That this is rare that that it.
• 1:33:13
  Never happens. Meaning that people regret?
• 1:33:15
  Pretty much, yeah. And that when it does happen,
• 1:33:17
  it's usually due to. Social pressure and regret is
• 1:33:21
  actually quite rare. Quite rare.
• 1:33:23
  So I shouldn't talk about my own regret because then that's
• 1:33:27
  imposing my own experience on other trans people.
• 1:33:31
  And I actually never heard about detransition at all up until I
• 1:33:36
  started detransitioning. I didn't even know what the word
• 1:33:40
  was until it happened to me. How common is it, do you know?
• 1:33:45
  We have no idea. We do not.
• 1:33:47
  Know except if you go on certain Reddit.
• 1:33:50
  I mean, aren't there? Hundreds and hundreds of these
• 1:33:53
  stories coming. Out now.
• 1:33:54
  Yeah, the R slash the trans subreddit was one of my.
• 1:33:57
  First stops and then how many posts on there.
• 1:34:01
  I don't know how many posts are on.
• 1:34:02
  There, but there's. The last time I checked there
• 1:34:06
  were I think like 4050 thousand people on there and it's growing
• 1:34:13
  50,000 people on the D trans. Reddit, I think they gain about
• 1:34:18
  1000 people per month even. It's insane, yeah.
• 1:34:22
  For for for them to say this never.
• 1:34:24
  Happens. Or almost never happens.
• 1:34:28
  Would another live be There's no there's no consequences.
• 1:34:31
  Oh yeah, I mean, it wasn't told that I.
• 1:34:33
  I knew like there would be consequences to it, but I just,
• 1:34:36
  I wasn't at an age where I could really fully appreciate that.
• 1:34:41
  So I. Want to talk about your activism
• 1:34:42
  because you. Are traveling the country, you
• 1:34:45
  are speaking before legislate legislatures, Congress, you are
• 1:34:49
  advocating on major media shows you're leading a crusade.
• 1:34:53
  When I first heard about you, I'm like, she reminds me of Joan
• 1:34:55
  of Arc, except you're fighting for children, you know, instead
• 1:34:58
  of like a, you know, a nation. But it is a nation to some
• 1:35:01
  degree. Obviously the children of this
• 1:35:02
  nation and the world. What's that like?
• 1:35:08
  It's. I don't think any one word could
• 1:35:12
  describe just how wild. Wild of an adventure it's been.
• 1:35:19
  I mean just last year I was pretty much a shut in like a
• 1:35:23
  total loser, kind of a Stoner. Like I just played video games
• 1:35:26
  all day and just didn't really do much.
• 1:35:29
  Like after I got my, I was studying for my, for my CHSP,
• 1:35:34
  which is a diploma, diploma equivalent.
• 1:35:38
  But I didn't really have any plans for life.
• 1:35:41
  I didn't really think that I would make it honestly.
• 1:35:43
  What do you mean by that? Did or did you feel depressed?
• 1:35:46
  Yeah, I. Was really depressed like I
• 1:35:47
  thought. I lost everything.
• 1:35:50
  I mean, I lost all my friends. I went through my senior year
• 1:35:52
  completely alone, so I just dropped out.
• 1:35:54
  That was why I was getting my certificate.
• 1:35:56
  And you were in the 1st place. This is after D transitioning.
• 1:35:59
  Yeah. I thought I lost everything.
• 1:36:05
  But at the same. Time there is still something
• 1:36:08
  keeping me going, keeping me going, and I still wanted to
• 1:36:16
  make. Friends, even if they're outside
• 1:36:17
  of. School and I wanted to do my
• 1:36:19
  best to improve socially and maybe one day become a
• 1:36:24
  functioning member of society. I didn't know if that was a
• 1:36:27
  possibility for me, but I just kept going through and I started
• 1:36:31
  making up with my family because my relationship with them was
• 1:36:34
  really strained over the course of my transition.
• 1:36:38
  And just like being with like my, my little nieces and
• 1:36:42
  nephews, it helped me to realize just how important that is.
• 1:36:47
  And based on my interactions with the D trans community, like
• 1:36:50
  I wanted to help other people in this situation.
• 1:36:53
  And like I knew there has to be kids going through what I did
• 1:36:57
  because when I first entered that community, it was pretty
• 1:37:02
  much only adults who had been through the transition process
• 1:37:06
  as adults. But.
• 1:37:10
  I just had this intuition. That there has to be a bunch of
• 1:37:14
  other kids like me. Even if it was just was just one
• 1:37:18
  kid or 10 kids who are like me, that's far too many and I wasn't
• 1:37:24
  ready for a while, but I knew. Like at some point I.
• 1:37:26
  Wanted to start speaking up and I started small.
• 1:37:30
  At first it was just all my personal social media.
• 1:37:33
  And then once I felt ready, I started.
• 1:37:35
  I started posting about it on Twitter and I didn't really
• 1:37:39
  expect my platform to blow up the way it did.
• 1:37:42
  But at some point I had like journalists messaging me or like
• 1:37:47
  emailing me and I had some articles.
• 1:37:53
  Published on on Me. That helped.
• 1:37:55
  To really increase my reach and eventually one day I had a
• 1:38:05
  parent working with a nonprofit. Group called Partners for
• 1:38:07
  ethical care reaching. Out to me saying that Louisiana
• 1:38:14
  had a piece of legislation. That was.
• 1:38:19
  I think it was. Like a conversion therapy ban.
• 1:38:21
  That included like gender, the gender affirming care model in
• 1:38:27
  it. And she wanted me to like write
• 1:38:31
  a testimony for it. But it turned out that the state
• 1:38:36
  of Louisiana wouldn't accept written testimony if and if I
• 1:38:40
  were to testify, I would have to actually come there in person.
• 1:38:43
  And so they asked me if I would be able to fly out and it I
• 1:38:52
  really wanted to do it. I knew it was like a pretty big
• 1:38:56
  opportunity for me to do that. But when I told my.
• 1:39:00
  Parents about it at first they're.
• 1:39:01
  Like, no, no, you're not doing that.
• 1:39:04
  Like how old are you? I was 17.
• 1:39:07
  I was still kidding that I hadn't really been away from
• 1:39:09
  them that far away or for so long.
• 1:39:14
  So naturally they're pretty protective of me, especially
• 1:39:17
  since I wasn't completely healed yet.
• 1:39:21
  I wouldn't even say that I am now, but I was a.
• 1:39:23
  Lot worse off just a. Year ago than I am now, but it
• 1:39:28
  took some convincing on. Their part, but I'm.
• 1:39:32
  I'm very glad that they said yes and that I've been able to to do
• 1:39:35
  this because it's been a wonderful journey not only for
• 1:39:39
  me but for for the other kids who are being affected.
• 1:39:43
  By this. Your Twitter game is also very
• 1:39:46
  strong. And you're very.
• 1:39:49
  Articulate and a wonderful. Spokeswoman and showing the
• 1:39:53
  harm, but also advocating for good for for children and and
• 1:39:57
  for families. What are your goals?
• 1:39:59
  Well. I want to stop.
• 1:40:05
  I want to stop these. Treatments from ever being
• 1:40:07
  performed on. Children ever again.
• 1:40:09
  And I think the standards of care for both adult and child
• 1:40:14
  patients who have gender dysphoria need to be revised
• 1:40:19
  because as it is now, the current model doesn't allow for
• 1:40:24
  real informed consent. It pushes transition as the only
• 1:40:28
  option, and it doesn't really give these patients the
• 1:40:31
  information that they need in order in order to make a
• 1:40:36
  decision on this. They're calling it life saving.
• 1:40:40
  Care when? Really, it's only taking parts
• 1:40:45
  of a perfectly functional body. Do you support bans on?
• 1:40:55
  Affirming. Care for minors, as they call
• 1:40:57
  it? Yes.
• 1:40:59
  They should never be performing on.
• 1:41:00
  Kids, what kind of treatment should they be giving, providing
• 1:41:03
  for? Children who face gender
• 1:41:05
  dysphoria, they need psychotherapy, do you think?
• 1:41:08
  If you'd gotten psychotherapy, you.
• 1:41:10
  Wouldn't be here today. Absolutely.
• 1:41:12
  I mean. I had a lot of.
• 1:41:15
  Compounding issues growing up, but I feel like if.
• 1:41:17
  They were properly addressed. I wouldn't have felt the need.
• 1:41:22
  To. Become a boy to become.
• 1:41:25
  Something that I wasn't. In the state of California.
• 1:41:30
  My understanding is psychotherapy for.
• 1:41:31
  Gender dysphoria without the affirming care model meaning
• 1:41:35
  saying yes, you are the opposite biological sex, you're not
• 1:41:38
  really a man, you're not really a boy, you're not really a girl
• 1:41:41
  is illegal, right? I mean it's mind blowing.
• 1:41:45
  And if you're a parent of a child.
• 1:41:46
  Who struggles with gender dysphoria and you say you don't
• 1:41:50
  want your child to be LED down this path of mutilation, puberty
• 1:41:55
  blockers and the rest. Then you can lose custody.
• 1:41:58
  Yep, it's abusive not to affirm. Your child.
• 1:42:01
  Apparently the language is so deceptive because it's not
• 1:42:04
  affirmation. I mean, what exploitation?
• 1:42:06
  What is a parent for then, if they're just supposed to let
• 1:42:09
  their kid? Have the reins on their own
• 1:42:11
  medical treatment. Have you been able to talk to
• 1:42:14
  your? Parents about what?
• 1:42:16
  Happened. I mean in an objective way about
• 1:42:25
  just. About like what's happened Yeah,
• 1:42:27
  but we haven't had like a like a deep emotional conversation
• 1:42:31
  about it. I'm kind of I'm kind of afraid
• 1:42:33
  of doing that right now just because I feel like it would be
• 1:42:36
  really deeply painful. And I don't know if like we've
• 1:42:40
  if either I or my mom or. Dad have really recovered
• 1:42:43
  enough. To have a conversation like that
• 1:42:45
  yet, but at the same time, it's like the clock's ticking.
• 1:42:50
  They won't be here forever and I have to have that conversation
• 1:42:53
  at some point. It's just a really scary
• 1:42:54
  prospect for me, they sound. Like they did their best with
• 1:43:00
  what they. Knew.
• 1:43:02
  But at the same time, I'm sure it's devastating deep down for
• 1:43:06
  them. They have a lot of guilt.
• 1:43:07
  Yeah, I think any parent would. That's a very.
• 1:43:12
  Gracious, you're you've got. A very gracious approach with
• 1:43:16
  and how you talk about them. So you're going to end this evil
• 1:43:22
  practice once and for all, and then what?
• 1:43:24
  Once you've ended the evil practice of these, the medical
• 1:43:29
  community that's been poisoned by this ideology, what are you
• 1:43:32
  going to do next? It's such a, it's such a simple
• 1:43:35
  question. And yet it's so overwhelming.
• 1:43:37
  Well, you're you are 18, so there's so many.
• 1:43:40
  Possibilities. You know any 18 year old?
• 1:43:42
  Is like, I mean the mass majority of 18 year olds.
• 1:43:44
  Are like, I don't know, this sounds interesting.
• 1:43:46
  This sounds something. So you're already, like doing
• 1:43:48
  something tremendously. Yeah.
• 1:43:50
  I mean, you've lived already so much life once this is said and
• 1:43:54
  done. There's still so many, so many
• 1:43:59
  things in this world. To fight for like.
• 1:44:03
  I'm. I'd say that over the.
• 1:44:05
  Years I've become. A very family oriented.
• 1:44:07
  Person and there are a lot of issues affecting children and
• 1:44:11
  families and mothers and fathers right now.
• 1:44:14
  And I think once I'm done with this, I might continue.
• 1:44:18
  On to that. But what are some examples of
• 1:44:21
  things you're passionate about for me?
• 1:44:23
  You might know, I mean, obviously with live action, I've
• 1:44:25
  2500 children killed every day by abortion.
• 1:44:28
  It's like these children are in danger of death and I'm going to
• 1:44:31
  fight for them. But what are some things that
• 1:44:32
  you've seen that you're just concerned about and want to try
• 1:44:36
  to stop? I mean a lot of parents now.
• 1:44:39
  Are totally laissez faire on how they parent their kids now
• 1:44:43
  that's they go home they have an app they they have a drink they
• 1:44:48
  spend time with other adults rather than their own kids and
• 1:44:51
  they're just letting the parent they're letting the screens
• 1:44:54
  parent their children rather than themselves and that's kind
• 1:44:59
  of how I got. To this point.
• 1:45:01
  I learned I learned about transitioning entirely from
• 1:45:04
  social media and my parents had no idea what I was seeing online
• 1:45:09
  and usually it doesn't lead to. Something that's extreme, but.
• 1:45:14
  I've seen the same thing with a lot of my friends growing up and
• 1:45:17
  that their their parents let them have completely
• 1:45:21
  unrestricted Internet access and they're exposed to things like
• 1:45:24
  pornography from a very young age I think.
• 1:45:28
  That's another issue that I'm. That I'm very passionate.
• 1:45:33
  About, I think that there needs to be.
• 1:45:35
  Age restrictions on pornography? I'm with your websites.
• 1:45:40
  I would just ban it, that's my position.
• 1:45:43
  Ideally, yes, that's a step right there.
• 1:45:45
  Wow. Ideally, yes.
• 1:45:47
  But in a state. Like California or pretty much
• 1:45:51
  throughout the US. That would never happen,
• 1:45:54
  unfortunately. Do you want to have a family
• 1:45:56
  yourself one day? Oh yeah.
• 1:45:59
  I hope I have a big family one day.
• 1:46:00
  That's awesome, but first. I want to travel the world, and
• 1:46:05
  outside of activism and politics, I've kind of always
• 1:46:12
  been on the artistic. Side.
• 1:46:14
  Yeah, those, those are pictures of the kid with the.
• 1:46:17
  Funny noses of the story. I mean, other than the funny
• 1:46:21
  stuff that I would draw in class.
• 1:46:23
  I've always liked doing things like like character design and
• 1:46:26
  illustration, and in recent years I've gotten into fashion
• 1:46:31
  and I you are very fashionable. I love when you're when I've.
• 1:46:35
  Seen your videos and stuff When you're at a rally or you're
• 1:46:39
  testifying, you're dressed like in a really cool.
• 1:46:43
  You have a very cool aesthetic that I I like.
• 1:46:46
  I feel like the way that I dress in a lot of these.
• 1:46:48
  Interviews and at these at these high profile events though.
• 1:46:55
  Doesn't really capture me. Very well.
• 1:46:57
  I feel like it's a little too stuffy for me.
• 1:46:58
  I mean, I like it. It's fancy, you know, But you're
• 1:47:02
  more of a a relaxed vibe. Not necessarily.
• 1:47:09
  I mean, I always have some sort of crazy idea.
• 1:47:11
  And kind of. Building up my wardrobe right
• 1:47:12
  now, the idea I have for a for a brand is if you're going to say
• 1:47:21
  it, someone listening might steal it, so just proceed.
• 1:47:23
  With caution. I'm just kidding.
• 1:47:24
  My fears are super, super good. It's constantly evolving, but.
• 1:47:33
  And it's very, it's very much a work in.
• 1:47:34
  Progress. I don't have a name for it.
• 1:47:36
  Or anything right now. But the the Moto I have for it
• 1:47:40
  is of future and past and there would be two distinct styles.
• 1:47:45
  One of them would be kind of nostalgic, very bright colors, a
• 1:47:49
  lot of a lot of cute motifs, and the other would be more
• 1:47:53
  futuristic, almost kind of like. A cyberpunk I want to figure.
• 1:47:56
  Out how to do that without it being cringy, but I guess like
• 1:47:58
  if you're going to cyberpunk, you're already in cringe
• 1:48:00
  territory. I like it, Chloe, you're an.
• 1:48:05
  Inspiration. I'm really excited to see what
• 1:48:07
  you do with your one beautiful life and thank you so much for
• 1:48:10
  sitting down with me in this kind of warm room to tell me
• 1:48:14
  and, and just your courage in sharing so much personal stuff
• 1:48:19
  with the world, but so you can help other people and and help
• 1:48:22
  other children. So thank you.
• 1:48:23
  Thank you so much. How can people find you?
• 1:48:26
  And support your work. I'm on Twitter and Instagram at
• 1:48:29
  chapter. Triple OCOLE Nice and what about
• 1:48:33
  is there like a a website to donate?
• 1:48:34
  Or to contribute financially. I know that what you're doing is
• 1:48:38
  not free. You have to support yourself.
• 1:48:40
  I'm on donorbox at donorbox dot dot.
• 1:48:43
  Org slash Chloe dash. Cool.
• 1:48:46
  Awesome. Thanks Chloe.
• 1:48:48
  Oh yeah, and I also. Have.
• 1:48:52
  AI have an ongoing lawsuit. And the fun for it is on.
• 1:48:55
  The official Center for American Liberty website.
• 1:48:57
  Nice, nice. Sue them into oblivion.
• 1:49:00
  For the children, that's the plan for the children.
• 1:49:02
  Thank you, Chloe, you. Rock.