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Sheltered by Similarity | How to Tell if You're in a Bubble with Shannon and David Steeves · Neighbourly: Real Stories of Care and Community

• 0:02
  Like, we have to adapt. Like, there's not just
• 0:05
  one specific way to serve people. Yeah. There's
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  not just one specific way to decide on
• 0:13
  people. I think when you're you're doing that, you're limiting
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  yourself. It's so important to meet people where
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  they're at. Yeah. The way we do that is is is just relationships.
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  This is Journey with Care, a podcast by Care Impact where curious
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  Canadians find inspiration to love others well through real life
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  stories and honest conversations.
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  What if the very comfort we find in like minded communities
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  is also what blinds us to the full richness of faith and
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  understanding? This question struck me deeply as I
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  considered my own journey. How often have we mistaken comfort
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  for growth only to realize that embracing diversity and faith in
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  life enriches our own walk with Jesus and broadens our horizons?
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  I was part of a vibrant church community that felt unstoppable.
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  We were full of passion diving to the teachings of speakers and
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  influences within our church expression. After Sunday services, we'd go
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  to a restaurant. We'd sit for hours, dissecting sermons, creating our
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  own teaching sessions, and bouncing ideas off one another back and forth.
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  It was energizing and exciting. We thought we were building
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  something unshakable, totally different from anyone else, a
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  foundation of truth and purpose. Reflecting now,
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  I see both the strength and limitations of that time. That community
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  had provided us with certainty and a strong sense of belonging, and
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  we pursued our faith with undeniable passion. However,
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  we were also inadvertently building a bubble, one that was comfortable,
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  reassuring, but ultimately restrictive. Over time, it became
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  clear that this bubble was not just keeping us from growing, it was also
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  keeping others out. My perspective began to shift when I
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  realized that we weren't as special or unique as I had once felt.
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  This realization came not from a place of disillusionment, but from an
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  understanding that there was a richness and diversity that we were missing.
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  I started to listen more to stories and experiences from outside our
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  bubble. Each story was a revelation, showing me that different
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  church experiences and walks with Jesus were not wrong, but
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  essential. I needed these diverse perspectives to grow,
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  not just intellectually, but in my relationship with Jesus.
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  Now the bubble didn't burst all at once. It deflated slowly
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  with each new conversation, every story that challenged my assumptions
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  about what it meant to follow Christ. I began to rebuild,
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  not just what I believe, but how I approach people. This wasn't
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  about abandoning the passion of my early communities, but
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  about enriching that passion with the voices of others who'd walk
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  different paths. Looking back, I cherish the passion and purpose of that
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  early community, but I also embrace the lessons learned from stepping
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  outside that comfort zone. Today, we explore how echo
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  chambers limit empathy and how embracing diverse perspectives
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  leads to deeper, richer connections. Joining us
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  today are Shannon and David Steeves, newlyweds from diverse
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  cultural backgrounds demonstrating the power of unity in diversity.
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  Shannon serves as the regional manager at Care Impact here in Winnipeg,
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  facilitating deep conversations between churches and communities.
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  David is the next generation pastor at Rose Church here in Winnipeg,
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  nurturing young people's faith across diverse cultures.
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  Together, they'll how diverse experiences can enrich faith and
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  fellowship, also bringing in some of their marriage experience. We're excited
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  to learn from their journey today. But, Wendy, I'm gonna hand it over to you
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  now to get our conversation started. Alright. David and Shannon,
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  so good to have you here. But before we dive in, I just wanna ask
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  you kind of a random crazy question, but if you could instantly pick
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  up a new skill or hobby without practicing, what would it
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  be? Oh. Oh, I know mine.
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  I I'm a grandma at heart, so I think mine
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  would have to be, like, knitting or crocheting, something where I can just, like,
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  sit and just Okay. Chat with the ladies, you know?
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  I think carpentry. Oh. Wow. Jesus
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  was a carpenter. Okay. I just wanna walk in his footsteps. Right.
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  Right. No. But I I mean, imagine just being able to
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  build a house. Mhmm. Just boom. You know? Yeah. What what
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  would you build? A house and a barn and
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  a garage. Oh my gosh. So we're gonna have a farm?
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  Something like that. That could be fun. Well, I met so I did my internship
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  in Tallahassee, Florida. Right? And I stayed with this
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  couple, and this man showed me this
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  barn that he built. Oh my gosh. And I'm like, we can do
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  that. Some of us, humans,
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  could go out and just build barns. Yeah. Well, David,
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  it sounds like we wanna be neighbors with you and
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  Shannon because I don't I don't have any carpentry skills in
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  our in our family, and we could sure use some some instant skills like
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  that. The thing with barns
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  is Yeah. Anything that lives in a barn, they all end up smelling the same,
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  and it's pretty bad, which brings us into, our
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  conversation about Good segue. Good segue. Being in
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  an echo chamber or a bubble. When do you wanna kick us
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  off with, our conversation here? That's true. Yeah. In our series, we
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  we are looking at the cost of indifference, and one of the things we're looking
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  at is essentially echo chambers and
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  and being internal and just listening to
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  similar voices and maybe not having as
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  much diversity into our conversations, into our
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  thought life, that may challenge us, and it's easier
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  to stay within. Now just in
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  obvious form, you have to tell us a little bit. You don't look
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  alike, and you have worked through some of this reason
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  we've asked you into this story. Tell me a bit of your journeys
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  into thinking outside the box, going outside
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  your barn, so to speak in life. That was great.
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  Yeah. So I I was born in
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  Istanbul, Turkey. So that throws a little bit of spice
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  into all of this. But, born
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  to a Ethiopian mother, Nigerian dad,
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  lived six years there. Me and my mom came here to Canada.
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  My mom was, like, culturally, just
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  Africans just in general, especially coming into a new
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  country, they're trying to find folks that look like
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  them, speak like them, cook like them, dress like them.
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  But actually, my mom was really just,
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  she was okay with not being familiar
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  even since Istanbul and going to,
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  a church that was predominantly, you know, Europeans and,
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  you know, Middle Eastern folks. And so coming here, she
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  didn't, like, find an Ethiopian church right away. We were actually connected
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  with this this other church that was predominantly had
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  a lot of Caucasian Canadians, and, you know, and so,
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  like, right away, like, my mom was like, hey, be proud of
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  your culture, the color of your skin, but,
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  like, we didn't chase familiarity. And so that kinda
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  just, like, I was always kinda, like,
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  making friends with other folks that look different.
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  And, you know, even going to school
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  outside of Canada and going to The
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  US and, you know, that was a part of just that journey and that
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  upbringing. So you were raised global boy,
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  and I'm curious. And and it's really neat to hear how your mom
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  instilled that and gave you permission to be yourself, but
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  also you were exposed from an early age to so many cultures.
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  And then coming to Canada, which is, like, maybe your fourth culture
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  kid kind of a thing, it's not your first, second, or third. Was
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  there a time as you were growing up here in Canada where
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  you had to discover your own identity,
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  understand your own Imago Dei ness in your own ethnicity in
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  Canada makes sense? What was that like? Yeah.
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  So my two aunties
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  came when I was around eight years old. So I grew up with my
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  mom, in Turkey, Six Years, came here for two,
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  three years. It was just me and my mom. Then my
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  two aunties came, and so it was
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  three Ethiopian women, you know what I'm saying, who
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  grew up in, there was like barely any English being
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  spoken in our home, and
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  so, like, really learning the culture Mhmm.
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  Helped me learn who I was, and in
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  return, I became proud of that. And you really got boot
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  camp on how to treat women, didn't you? And no wonder you're happily married. Shannon,
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  I'd love to hear a bit of your story, happily married. Shannon, I'd love to
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  hear a bit of your story because you also you were actually newer to Canada
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  than your husband. Tell us a little bit. And and now with all the
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  politics, we're not gonna go there. But at the same time, you guys are
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  a a living miracle here. Go go share us a little bit of hope
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  here. Yeah. Well, my journey here is not quite as
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  interesting. But I was born and raised in
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  Southeast Minnesota. And as I thought about this conversation, I was
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  like, man, I really did spend a lot of time with
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  people who look just like me. And
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  and yeah. So just, like, thinking back, man, since I was a kid,
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  that that definitely shaped my worldview. It
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  shaped just my kind of initial impressions of
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  people and having to kinda examine that as I've gotten older.
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  And then moved to North Dakota for college, and that's where
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  we met. And then I spent a little bit of time in Tennessee.
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  So going down south, that was a different vibe. And
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  then, yeah, just in the last, like, nine months or
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  so, moved to Canada to marry him.
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  And, yeah, that has probably been, like, the
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  biggest just pushing me out of my comfort zone moving
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  here. It's like there's so many similarities, but then
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  the things that are different, you're like, oh, yeah. That is different.
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  Especially when it comes to faith and politics
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  and even the kind of the presence and the influence of
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  churches in Canada, feeling a lot of that difference and learning
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  about that has been a learning curve for sure.
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  So now you're married. Congratulations. You're a
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  few months into this marriage. What are some of the surprises,
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  even through your dating and new married life? Maybe
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  it's too much on the hot seat here, but share share as much as you'd
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  like. Because I know, like, I'm in a cross cultural marriage as
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  well. Yeah. My husband came here from another country. And so there's some things
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  that we assume are very similar because we all speak English. Right. But what are
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  the some of the things, the nuances that you're realizing, oh, I just
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  thought this is the way it is in in living up my faith
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  and in my day to day that when you're
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  with each other, that you're realizing having to
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  reconsider your assumptions. Yeah. I think
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  one thing maybe I feel like communication style
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  sometimes. Mhmm. I grew up
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  where it was like communication styles,
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  just like the lingo and, like, the casualness,
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  even the the banter type jargon
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  Yeah. Kind of bringing that here. Like, are we
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  good? Are we are we mad? Are we happy? Right. Like, I often thought he
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  was mad at me Yeah. And he wasn't. Yeah. This is like is this
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  a joyful conversation? Is this and so, like, we had to learn,
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  like, I I honestly was like, okay. I need to
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  pivot and be like, hey. This
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  is what I've learned. Mhmm. This is this comes from me just,
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  like, just in my circles and being used to that. Yeah. But
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  knowing that, you know, I wanna love you the best that I can. Mhmm.
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  Communicate in a way that's, like Right. You know, what
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  I'm relaying the message that I want to you to know.
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  Mhmm. You know what I'm saying? And vice versa. And vice versa. Yeah. Absolutely.
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  Because as we're, like, in the moment realizing,
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  oh, this is, like, I'm feeling a type of way because of how you
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  communicated, or what how your tone was, or whatever it might be. Then,
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  like, on the flip side, there's a level of, like, me
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  acknowledging my own sensitivities and acknowledging, you know,
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  obviously so much of how we act is based on what we saw growing up
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  or what was modeled for us. Mhmm. And so just because
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  it's different, doesn't mean it's bad. It's bad. And that Weird. Or
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  weird or wrong. Yeah. And that yeah. I'd say
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  that's a a huge thing that we have we've learned Yeah.
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  Especially in the beginning. For sure. Yeah. Sometimes I think
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  about, like, hospitality wise. Like, we
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  both are very people people,
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  and we love hosting. But I think Ethiopian hospitality is,
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  like, another level. Mhmm. I don't know. Is this landing with you? Like, do you
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  think that that's kind of something Yeah. We've learned I think
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  there is a specific
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  style Mhmm. In hosting people in
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  Ethiopian households. It's like and it could be perceived
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  as not rude. Because what I'm
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  thinking of is, like yeah. Yeah. What I'm more Bring the real, really Yeah.
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  Tools. Like, something as simple as and this might not be related
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  really to, like, culture. But I think of a simple example. A couple weeks ago,
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  we were hosting people, and I, like, didn't really care about
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  what dish we used to put some food in. Mhmm. And you're like, no.
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  That's kinda like it was like a Mhmm. A mixing bowl, you
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  know? And he's like, no. Let's use, like, a actual Yeah. Decent looking
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  bowl. And I'm like, I don't really care. But for you and for your
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  like, that culture growing up, it's like, no. We're gonna give the highest level
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  of service and and care. Really. Pulled out the the like, my
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  auntie, when I was home, she had four or five
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  bowls Yeah. That were in the top left right corner in the
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  back of Right. A compartment that you didn't know existed
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  Yeah. Until guests came. Right. And I'm like, we can just use the
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  Pyrex. Like, it's Yeah. We're
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  realizing, like, I don't know. Of things like that. Yeah. Then, again, it's not bad.
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  It's just different. Well, I love what I'm hearing here. Even you're
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  just doing it live right in front of me. I'm seeing echo
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  chambers, assumptions, our baselines are are colliding in
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  each other and not in a way that one is right or one is wrong.
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  There's a mutuality about this conversation you're you're so vulnerably sharing
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  with me. And you're you're right, David and Shannon. I I can
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  identify it. I have Ethiopian relatives. My sister, she brings it next
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  level. When I'm I'm part of Ethiopian weddings and
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  just hospitality, it's just like, I learned so much from
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  it. I'm curious through this, even just
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  through your marriage, and and you've had many different cultural experiences moving
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  to Canada and everything for both of you. How has that enriched? How
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  has that made you a better person? How has that made you more
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  faithful to Christ and refined you
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  as you've had these collisions? And not being wrong or right, but how
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  has that impacted your growth? It has really
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  revealed to me, especially we just did a marriage conference at our
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  church, and so this is really on my mind there too. But it
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  really revealed to me how selfish we are as
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  people that we really make
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  decisions in our best interest. Mhmm.
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  And it really takes a lot of effort to kinda
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  humble ourselves and be like, oh, okay. My way isn't
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  necessarily the right way. Mhmm. Or while I believe it is true,
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  other people believe differently. Mhmm. And there can be space for me to
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  acknowledge that. I just think about, you know, we're only six, seven
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  months into this. But now I get why people always
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  said in marriage, like, it really reveals that part of you
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  that's, like, we wanna do what we wanna do. Mhmm. And
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  Yeah. I get now how, like, marriage is such this, like, picture
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  of process, I guess, of sanctification. It's like, okay,
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  every day, like, I'm laying myself down Yeah. And
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  putting you ahead of my own needs and vice
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  versa, like that mutual submission. And it doesn't
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  happen, like, naturally. I guess that's what you like, I have to
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  think about is my default setting is not to, like,
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  put your needs first. Mhmm. I wish it were, and I want it to be.
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  And that's not different from what we are called to as a church to lay
• 17:14
  down our lives for each other. Right? And so, David, you are
• 17:18
  a pastor in a church. Shannon, you are on our team doing amazing
• 17:22
  things in in the city of Winnipeg with the care portal, working with
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  churches. Now let's put that into a context of leadership in
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  churches. Leaders that are one culture, how would that
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  impact how we're cared for, how we provide a hospitality?
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  We're friendly or we love this because it comes out of one lens. It's not
• 17:40
  necessarily wrong. It's not a morality issue. Let's
• 17:44
  talk to that. What does it look like for us
• 17:47
  to have one singular cultural lens through our
• 17:51
  leadership? I think we like, we have to adapt. Like,
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  there's not just one specific way to
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  serve people. Yeah. There's not just one specific way
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  to disciple people. I think when you're you're
• 18:07
  doing that, you're limiting yourself. It's so important to
• 18:10
  meet people where they're at. Yeah. The way we do that is is
• 18:14
  is just relationships. Mhmm. Making sure that
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  within the church, we're going out of our our
• 18:22
  circles and building relationships with people in the
• 18:25
  church that don't fit that, you
• 18:29
  know, one Yeah. Like, Canadian like, hey. You know, this
• 18:33
  one. Yeah. But it's like, man, have relationships, learn,
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  and then use that knowledge into, you know,
• 18:40
  creating systems and how to create certain conversations and
• 18:44
  how to ultimately disciple Mhmm.
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  A multitude of people. And and so I think it's it's very
• 18:52
  important, I think, for for leadership to have
• 18:56
  relationship. Does that make sense? Yeah. And I think as as
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  you're talking, I'm thinking about, like, some of the conversations I've had with church
• 19:03
  leaders is, like, I think a lot of it starts with vision.
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  Right. It's, like, coming before the Lord and asking him, okay, what's your
• 19:11
  vision Right. For this community, for this church?
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  And then putting those key people in those places
• 19:18
  to help carry that out. Like, if our vision is to reach the
• 19:22
  city city of Winnipeg, like, okay, that's our vision. How are we
• 19:26
  gonna accomplish this? Like, we can't have just one
• 19:29
  singular demographic in all the roles. Right. All the roles. Yeah.
• 19:33
  Like, because they can't necessarily speak or relate the same way
• 19:37
  to be all things to all people. You know? Like, thank God that we're
• 19:40
  not because that would be too much. But I think you have to
• 19:44
  acknowledge that and then put in the, you know, that work, that effort
• 19:47
  to look for those people that God wants to bring in. I don't know. Does
• 19:50
  that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It it does definitely ultimately
• 19:54
  start with vision. Mhmm. Yeah. I
• 19:58
  think humans are just we're just we're prone
• 20:01
  to chasing comfortability Yeah. Yeah. That
• 20:05
  makes its way in the church. And so it's Yeah. You're always,
• 20:08
  like, you're breaking against that. Like, Christianity in itself
• 20:12
  walking with Christ is going against the grain, and so Mhmm. That has
• 20:16
  to be a part of leadership in church. Be
• 20:20
  uncomfortable. Yeah. Right? Have those conversations
• 20:23
  with people. Build those relationships. Obviously, ultimately, go to God
• 20:27
  Mhmm. For that vision. Mhmm. But, like, people need to be reached,
• 20:31
  and so that doesn't just stop with, English
• 20:35
  speaking folks. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? It's yeah.
• 20:40
  Yeah. No. There's a lot of good things that, you've touched upon
• 20:44
  and having that vision for something more than
• 20:48
  recreating myself in others. Is it we're not looking for the image
• 20:52
  of me in others and how they should love it love, to
• 20:56
  worship like me or or act like me, but looking at who
• 20:59
  is god in the other person. But then you you touched
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  on something else that I'd like to to put a finger on is
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  that it takes intentionality. There's some effort involved, and I
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  wonder if that is one of the barriers that prevents us be from
• 21:14
  embracing diversity more. I talk with leaders, like, my family is
• 21:18
  very diverse. I'm the only white girl around the table, but people say, oh,
• 21:22
  that's diverse. Well, not really if we're not sharing that
• 21:25
  power. Not really if we're not honoring
• 21:29
  people's culture and what they bring, and and it's not even just like, oh,
• 21:32
  you're Ethiopian, so you must be like so and so. You have
• 21:36
  a unique story that came from Istanbul, and so each person
• 21:40
  comes with similar threads and fabric,
• 21:44
  but unique but it takes intentionality. And
• 21:48
  do you think that we have
• 21:52
  become indifferent possibly simply because it's
• 21:55
  just easier to do it our way
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  than embrace potential rifts or
• 22:03
  storming things out and figuring things out together? I
• 22:07
  think before you even asked that question, I was, like, thinking about how, you know,
• 22:10
  all of what we're saying is well and good. But, like, in practice,
• 22:14
  it can be messy. Oh, so messy. And so I think that, like, really gets
• 22:18
  to your point is, like, yeah. It really is a lot
• 22:22
  easier to exist within, you
• 22:25
  know, our familiar culture, our familiar demographic, our familiar
• 22:30
  upbringing. Mhmm. And it's a lot harder
• 22:33
  to kind of, like, reach across the table and be
• 22:37
  like, okay. Like, what's your story? Like, I I wanna learn from you.
• 22:41
  Yeah. And then maybe if it's, like, something that's hard to hear, it's like,
• 22:44
  okay. Yeah. You know, we have to grow in that, emotional
• 22:48
  maturity, I think, to to be willing to listen.
• 22:51
  Totally. And I this like, I say that from a place of, like, ongoing learning.
• 22:55
  Yeah. Yeah. Not that I've arrived because it is
• 22:59
  ongoing. Yeah. Totally. Well and it takes the
• 23:02
  pressure off. When you posture it that way, it takes the pressure off of having
• 23:06
  to these are the steps to being diverse. These are the steps
• 23:10
  to not being insular in your thinking. It really requires
• 23:14
  just leaning in and listening and being responsive to the
• 23:17
  holy spirit, needing God to give us revelation, needing
• 23:21
  God to give us inspiration on how do we love each other
• 23:25
  well and what does it mean to follow you in this? It's
• 23:28
  not how to do church so that we're not in an echo
• 23:32
  chamber. It's what does it mean to be faithful and
• 23:36
  to worship together with shared power.
• 23:39
  Let's talk on power dynamics within
• 23:43
  church, within a diverse setting. How do you work
• 23:47
  through those things? It could be ethnic
• 23:50
  diversity or gender or things like that. Not I'm not
• 23:54
  talking about that we should have a power struggle, but I'm
• 23:58
  sure you've experienced times where there is a power
• 24:01
  dynamic that people don't even realize they have. They hold the assumed
• 24:05
  power. Yeah. Tell me a little bit of those experiences when you
• 24:09
  haven't necessarily been that person. What does it feel like
• 24:13
  to not be that person with the assumed
• 24:17
  Yeah. Coming in to ministry
• 24:20
  mean being young. Mhmm. You know, the youngest
• 24:24
  like a young black boy, and, you know, had the opportunity
• 24:29
  and the privilege to oversee a team
• 24:32
  that had predominantly a lot of older folks.
• 24:36
  Right? So there's older people. You know, they're
• 24:40
  established. They've got families. Mhmm. And I'm like, okay.
• 24:45
  How do I delegate? You know? Yeah. So it's like I'm working
• 24:49
  through leadership, but then also, like,
• 24:52
  when we're walking into a meeting, how do I hey. I'm
• 24:56
  leading this meeting. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, the words I'm
• 25:00
  saying is important. This agenda is so I'm working through, like,
• 25:04
  hey, David. Like, you have that confidence. Mhmm. You
• 25:07
  know, you're here on purpose. And so I think that's, like, a a
• 25:11
  continued thing for sure. Yeah. I would say so.
• 25:15
  Really more, like, internally, have to make sure that
• 25:18
  I'm walking in confidently, but knowing the truth
• 25:22
  of God. Mhmm. And but, yeah, there's certain moments
• 25:26
  that's, like, David's the baby, you know. And so
• 25:30
  it's it's it's the youngest the youngest in the office.
• 25:34
  And so it's like but I think I've made sure
• 25:37
  that I'm quick to listen, but also I'm afraid to
• 25:41
  speak confidently Mhmm. As well. I have
• 25:45
  a a totally candid question, and feel free to answer how you like it.
• 25:48
  Not necessarily specific in today's moment, but do you ever feel
• 25:52
  you said that the young black boy Yeah. In the room. Do you
• 25:56
  ever feel in order to be heard, you have to act
• 26:00
  more white? You know, feel,
• 26:03
  yes. Is that truth? No. But it's
• 26:07
  funny, because, like, when you say
• 26:11
  white in my head okay. So let me
• 26:14
  go back to a in 2019, I was playing football in
• 26:18
  BC. I was getting interviewed. It was like a
• 26:22
  preseason interview. It was really exciting. And so this reporter was
• 26:25
  giving me questions and, you know, I was answering. And he's
• 26:29
  like, man, you're really, like you know how to
• 26:33
  articulate. And I was like No. I don't I
• 26:36
  don't think you know how that sounded. Right? So I think, like,
• 26:40
  you know, when folks say, like, more white, I
• 26:44
  think it's, like, being more articulate and more,
• 26:48
  you know, profound or more you know what I'm saying? And
• 26:52
  so I'm, like, when in my own circles, like, bro,
• 26:56
  you sound you sound all white. I'm like, bro, that's not
• 26:59
  being white. That's just being able to speak. Right?
• 27:03
  Having diction. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, I
• 27:06
  know when I walk into a room
• 27:10
  knowing what I'm about to say,
• 27:13
  I've downloaded this information. I've taken the time to research.
• 27:17
  Like, I know what I'm saying, and I know how to articulate my thoughts and
• 27:21
  vision. I know I'll be heard. Yeah. No. I think that that's
• 27:24
  so good. And there in in in those
• 27:28
  friction moments, if you call it that, are education
• 27:32
  moments that people need to lean in and
• 27:35
  realize we need to take people at face value. But
• 27:39
  I know different friends of mine of different ethnicities
• 27:44
  will say sometimes their struggle in their workplace
• 27:47
  or in in society, some of those struggles, those assumptions that are thrown their
• 27:51
  way, passive aggressive, microaggressions.
• 27:56
  And it happens within the church, but we don't always realize it because we're
• 28:00
  friendly, we're nice. Like, those microaggressions,
• 28:04
  maybe we can talk a little bit about that because microaggressions
• 28:08
  happen within echo chambers, happen when we're not
• 28:12
  challenging status quo or correcting or or changing those
• 28:15
  things. It doesn't mean people are bad, but it we're rubbing into
• 28:19
  we're bumping into those assumptions, those false assumptions.
• 28:23
  What would you say to doesn't matter who in the church,
• 28:27
  about microaggressions. How would we be able to correct that
• 28:31
  or edify the church as we bump into each
• 28:34
  other and and be human to human? How do we address microaggressions
• 28:38
  so we can truly love each other? It begins
• 28:42
  with a relationship. It's really like living life on purpose.
• 28:46
  So we're Christian and we're like we're walking with Christ and
• 28:50
  we're constantly dying to ourselves and constantly
• 28:54
  being refined. And Mhmm. I think a part of that
• 29:00
  is being aware and discerning. Like,
• 29:04
  I've always had that thought. Mhmm. Is that right? I mean,
• 29:08
  I have a different perspective Yes. Yes. From where I'm at. But
• 29:12
  I think for me, when I've been trying to work on that in myself
• 29:16
  is just like we were talking about earlier, is, like, having the
• 29:19
  humility to recognize that, like, we're not always
• 29:23
  right. Yeah. And that's how our experiences have shaped
• 29:27
  our world view and acknowledging that.
• 29:30
  It's like, oh, okay. Now that I, like, see that, I can, like, be
• 29:34
  willing and open to, like, see it a different way. Or for someone to
• 29:38
  share their experience and be like, oh, I've never I've never had to
• 29:42
  think about that way. Mhmm. No one's ever told me you're so articulate, and I,
• 29:45
  like, all I said was thank you. Because I was like, oh, thanks. Like Yeah.
• 29:48
  Yeah. Yeah. It's, you know, acknowledging that, like, oh, that's a different
• 29:52
  experience Mhmm. That he had than I. And
• 29:56
  there's, like, reasons for that. And Yeah. Yeah. Just, like, in making that acknowledgement, I
• 29:59
  think Mhmm. Like you said, it comes down to being in relationship with one another
• 30:03
  Yeah. And being willing to ask the
• 30:07
  questions. Mhmm. It's like, oh, can you know, like, what has that been like for
• 30:10
  you? Right. You know, in relationship with one of us. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 30:14
  I really appreciate your response in that because, yeah, you're right.
• 30:17
  Proximity does matter. When we are removed and we
• 30:21
  objectify, we could even do that in politics, and we're like, we can't
• 30:25
  like Americans. And, Shannon, we love you. If you
• 30:28
  only got to know Shannon, who wouldn't? Because you you
• 30:32
  are an image bearer. You do carry, the the heart
• 30:36
  of Christ in that. And we could say that for x, y, and z,
• 30:39
  the things we see on the news, the things we read, the things we assume,
• 30:44
  things we are inherited for myself as a settler, things I don't
• 30:47
  even question because I have inherited certain things, and I hope
• 30:51
  we we've evolved and educated more and become less,
• 30:55
  like, racially divided and things like that. I I would
• 30:59
  like to think that, but we're still working those things out. And and what
• 31:02
  you've identified, both of you, in your stories is that proximity matters when we get
• 31:04
  to know people. Yeah. And
• 31:13
  opportunity to correct or confront with
• 31:17
  love. We we can actually be in those moments. We're not just assaulting, saying,
• 31:21
  how dare you do this? And that. We're not gonna actually help create
• 31:24
  change. But when we can sit and have coffee together Yeah. And
• 31:28
  say, well, this is what I'm thinking. This is what you're thinking. We we glean
• 31:31
  so much from each other in proximity. However,
• 31:35
  here's the however part. That's not always comfortable. Right? It
• 31:39
  means putting ourselves out there, like you said, Shannon, being vulnerable. What
• 31:42
  are some ways that you could suggest our listeners steps they
• 31:46
  can take? Maybe they are taking different steps. I would love to hear from our
• 31:49
  listeners. But what are some ways that have helped you
• 31:53
  and those in your community get closer and work
• 31:57
  through things in doing life together? Hello? You see? I have one.
• 32:01
  Yeah. Less of, like, a a relational personal
• 32:04
  thing, but it's something that I've done over the last few years that I found
• 32:08
  to be helpful. I spent a lot of time on social media. Mhmm. I'm not
• 32:11
  saying that that's a good thing. Mhmm. But I've challenged myself
• 32:15
  to follow people that I know don't necessarily
• 32:19
  think or view the world the same way I do. Mhmm.
• 32:23
  And it's helped me think about things from a different perspective.
• 32:26
  It's helped me understand why I believe what I believe.
• 32:30
  Mhmm. It's helped me be open minded on those things that are
• 32:34
  not like, you know, the non negotiables, those other other
• 32:38
  things. Mhmm. Yeah. And just challenged me to, like, just think
• 32:41
  about it from a different perspective. Because if I'm
• 32:45
  all the content I'm consuming, if it's always just this, like,
• 32:49
  exactly what I wanna hear Mhmm. Like, where's the learning? Yeah. Where's the
• 32:52
  growth? Yeah. Where's the critical thinking? Yeah. Like, what
• 32:56
  is the what is the cost? Like, just like this this title of the season,
• 33:00
  the cost of indifference. Like, I think about what am I
• 33:03
  missing by not taking that step to learn to
• 33:07
  grow from someone else? Mhmm. You know, even if it's not gonna be that I'm
• 33:10
  gonna change my opinion on something, I just think about, like, what
• 33:14
  relationships am I missing out on? What growth am I missing out
• 33:17
  on? And it's really helped me just in my empathy.
• 33:21
  Like, you know, this person has a really strong opinion about x y z.
• 33:25
  And even if I don't agree with it or, you know, whatever, I can see
• 33:29
  where they're coming from. And thank you, Lord, for
• 33:33
  Mhmm. You know, giving us this opportunity to learn from each other.
• 33:37
  Yeah. I think, that would be good. I think,
• 33:41
  one for me for sure is just
• 33:45
  listening. Mhmm. Just, like,
• 33:48
  closing my mouth and listening
• 33:52
  and seeing people's hearts
• 33:56
  Mhmm. And noticing their just their tone
• 34:00
  Mhmm. And where like, in live action,
• 34:04
  seeing where they're coming from,
• 34:07
  you begin to realize, like, oh, I wanna say a thing
• 34:11
  there. Mhmm. Oh, I wanna say a thing there. Mhmm. Oh, why do I wanna
• 34:14
  say and you begin searching yourself. It's a tool that's like, wow.
• 34:18
  This is just being quiet helps me Mhmm.
• 34:21
  Grow because I notice where my
• 34:25
  responses are coming from. Whether it's like, oh, I wanna defend this
• 34:28
  thing. Oh, wait. No. They're just explaining their POV.
• 34:32
  Right? I don't need to, like, put up, like, no, you shouldn't have said,
• 34:36
  right? It's just like sitting and listening,
• 34:41
  and at the end, almost all the time, I have
• 34:45
  a very different way of, like, communicating
• 34:48
  after, like, sitting down and listening. And so I'm like,
• 34:52
  man, I I learn a lot about who I am, what
• 34:56
  type of defenses I have, and and what things kinda
• 35:00
  like, whether it's an insecurity or what, all the different things that
• 35:04
  kinda flare up from sitting and listening to people
• 35:07
  talk. Yeah. I heard this great quote that I cannot take credit
• 35:11
  for, this past weekend. The opposite of
• 35:14
  love is not hate. The opposite of love is selfishness.
• 35:18
  Mhmm. And I was like, woah. It's true. In our
• 35:22
  household, we have this saying MCS. Oh, you're
• 35:25
  dealing with some MCS. It's main character syndrome when we wanna
• 35:29
  always see ourselves as the main character and everything else revolves around
• 35:33
  us. And I think that can often be the case within
• 35:37
  Christian settings, and it takes some intentionality
• 35:41
  to get over ourselves and listen to diversity, even things
• 35:45
  that we can't agree on. But it's a muscle that needs to be
• 35:48
  developed, and you're right. I love that you brought up the security issue.
• 35:52
  Secure believers, secure churches, it's not a
• 35:56
  security on I've got the dogma. I've got the the corner on God's theology
• 36:00
  so much as I'm securing Christ in the wonder, in
• 36:04
  the mysteries of working out our salvation and understanding who God is,
• 36:08
  which will be a lifelong eternal thing.
• 36:11
  There's room for all of us at this table, and it's not
• 36:15
  up to us to to have the reservation list of who gets their word
• 36:19
  in. Yeah. Exactly. Well, I think we're gonna end it there. Thank
• 36:22
  you so much, guys, for coming on. You lots to chew on. We're
• 36:26
  gonna hit up our segment now. It's time for
• 36:30
  Care lingo. I'm gonna throw an
• 36:33
  audible here. We had a I had a word lined up here for today, but
• 36:37
  I think we're gonna do a different one because I heard it mentioned a few
• 36:40
  minutes ago. And I'm like, let's let's roll with that one.
• 36:43
  We're gonna use the word microaggressions. Now, when
• 36:47
  I first heard this term, you know, it's it's those tiny
• 36:51
  things that just drive you nuts. It's those crumbs that
• 36:55
  fall off your sandwich and get stuck in your keyboard.
• 36:58
  Micro things that cause you to be angry or aggressive.
• 37:02
  You know, it's that wedgie. It's like, oh. Or
• 37:06
  or that dripping tap at nighttime when you
• 37:09
  sleep. David Shannon, I don't know if you guys have any microaggressions like
• 37:13
  that. What are your microaggressions if if you're going off my
• 37:16
  definition here? Going off of your definition, oh,
• 37:20
  it would be when David puts the dishes in the sink instead of in
• 37:24
  the dishwasher. Oh, newlywed problems. Yeah.
• 37:27
  Newlywed problems. But I have equally as many. Yeah. So I'll raise my
• 37:31
  hand for that. I'll be the first to say I do as well. No. Sure.
• 37:35
  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That would be going off of that definition for
• 37:39
  sure. You got a rebuttal? I was you know what's crazy? I wasn't
• 37:43
  even gonna, like, use a marriage microaggression.
• 37:47
  Sorry. I wonder Which is so crazy. So
• 37:52
  that's fine, though. I'll take it. Microaggression.
• 37:55
  Goodness gracious, Murphy. Paper straws. Oh,
• 37:59
  yeah. It's the it's it's really the only thing about
• 38:03
  Canada that you don't like. Somebody paper straws. Yes. In that
• 38:06
  group yesterday, somebody brought Kool Aid jammers, and, like, you can't
• 38:10
  even stab the thing open. True story. When I go to The US,
• 38:15
  for meetings and stuff, I pack my bags back with plastic
• 38:18
  straws at restaurants. I don't blame
• 38:21
  you. Okay, Wendy. What is a real microaggression? I don't think
• 38:25
  that was the correct definition. So Yeah. Happy to share it. Microaggressions are
• 38:29
  actually something more subtle and often unintentional
• 38:32
  comments or behaviors that actually have convey
• 38:36
  actually an underlying prejudice or a discriminatory tone to
• 38:40
  it that we are often blinded to from our own
• 38:43
  experience. We don't mean it that way, but it's towards
• 38:47
  a marginalized group or towards an other, somebody that
• 38:51
  isn't like us. And so we might say slighted comments that
• 38:54
  come off wrong when you're you're the other person. They can
• 38:58
  often be something that's accumulated over time. They're uncontested,
• 39:02
  things that people will say, leading to feeling
• 39:06
  excluded or devalued. It's making
• 39:10
  the other people feel othered, when we say those
• 39:13
  things. Alright. Microaggressions. There you have it. Again,
• 39:17
  thanks so much for coming on. Thanks for having us. You guys are great.
• 39:21
  So listeners, if this conversation resonated with you or made you think of
• 39:25
  someone that would benefit from this conversation, I encourage you to share
• 39:28
  it with them. That's how we're gonna grow the podcast. And, hey, remember, you can
• 39:32
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• 39:36
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• 39:39
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• 39:43
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• 39:47
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• 39:52
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• 39:56
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• 40:07
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• 40:11
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• 40:15
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