Latest / The Lila Rose Show / E239: Beyond the Burka: A Muslim Women's Journey to Jesus w/Nikki Kingsley | Lila Rose Show

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E239: Beyond the Burka: A Muslim Women's Journey to Jesus w/Nikki Kingsley | Lila Rose Show · The Lila Rose Show

• 0:00
  When I was 16, my parents arranged my marriage.
• 0:03
  It was a very Islamic home and I felt like property.
• 0:05
  I felt I had no rights. I would be on the prayer mat for
• 0:08
  hours. I would just beg Allah to save
• 0:10
  me, to somehow Get Me Out of here.
• 0:12
  It's the beginning of December. And I was asleep, and Jesus and
• 0:15
  Mary. Were at my.
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  Bedside, I was angry with God, I said.
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  I have prayed for so long asking you who you are.
• 0:21
  Why are you sending me Jesus? What did you do?
• 0:23
  Next, there are no words to describe what God did for me in
• 0:27
  that instant. Born in Pakistan, she was raised
• 0:33
  in a Muslim home and ended up in an arranged marriage to a Muslim
• 0:37
  man Nikki Kingsley, who goes by a pen name, would have
• 0:41
  supernatural experiences that ultimately LED her to the cross
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  and to Jesus Christ. Welcome back to the Lila Roe
• 0:47
  show. In today's episode, I sit down
• 0:49
  with Nikki Kingsley, the author of Thirst for Truth from
• 0:54
  Muhammad to Jesus, and her story is absolutely awe inspiring.
• 0:58
  She discusses the supernatural healing that she experiences,
• 1:02
  the impact of her conversion on her family and the special
• 1:06
  graces that she received and so much more.
• 1:09
  Also, a huge thank you to everybody who's subscribing to
• 1:11
  the show. I love, love, love creating this
• 1:14
  podcast. And friends, if you enjoy this
• 1:16
  show, you enjoy this content, thank you.
• 1:18
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• 1:24
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• 1:27
  Leave us five stars and leave us a review.
• 1:29
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• 1:32
  fund the podcast by going over to rosereport.supercast.com.
• 1:37
  We have behind the scenes content there.
• 1:40
  We just did a fun behind the scenes video there with Chrissy
• 1:43
  Horton, who we had on. She is she is hilarious.
• 1:46
  We had a blast. We have other content for you
• 1:48
  over at rosereport.supercast.com.
• 1:51
  Nikki Kingsley, welcome to the podcast.
• 1:53
  It's great to be here, Lila. Can't believe I'm sitting here
• 1:56
  with you. I'd have never thought this
• 1:58
  could ever happen with me from where I came from, that I'd be
• 2:03
  doing a podcast or talking about Jesus.
• 2:06
  So thank you for having me. I'm so happy.
• 2:09
  For all you do. Thank you.
• 2:10
  Well, I'm honored you came here because your story just, it
• 2:15
  moved me and I was talking with our producers like we, we have
• 2:18
  to talk to her. I'm going to start crying,
• 2:20
  actually. So our audience is in for a
• 2:24
  treat. There's so much to talk about
• 2:27
  with your story. Let's just start from the
• 2:29
  beginning. Tell me about your background.
• 2:31
  So I come from Muslim background and in Islam, as you know, there
• 2:36
  are two main sects. There's the Shia and then
• 2:38
  there's the Sunni, and I come from one of the most liberal
• 2:42
  sects within Shia Islam. And when I say liberal, we
• 2:47
  didn't pray five times a day. We are required to pray three
• 2:50
  times a day. I didn't grow up reading the
• 2:52
  Quran. There is a leader in our sect
• 2:56
  who is like the Pope for Catholics, and so we follow him
• 3:02
  and he discerns the Quran, tells us so it wasn't required to read
• 3:07
  the Quran or pray five times a day.
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  So it was more liberal, dressed in Western clothes, didn't have
• 3:13
  to wear the hijab. And so that's the background I
• 3:17
  come from. I was born in Pakistan and grew
• 3:21
  up in Africa, so I was born in Karachi.
• 3:24
  We moved to Africa when I was four years old.
• 3:26
  My dad took a job in Africa and I have two younger sisters and
• 3:32
  my mom, my dad, my sisters, my grandmother who lived with us,
• 3:37
  we moved to Africa and that's where I grew up.
• 3:39
  I grew up living in Tanzania, then Somalia, then the Congo and
• 3:46
  went to the American school there.
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  So life was very simple in Africa.
• 3:51
  This is in seventies, 80s and going to the American school,
• 3:56
  there was very small school, met people from all over the world
• 4:01
  who were, you know, diplomats or expatriate community.
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  And my family life was great. My parents had a beautiful
• 4:11
  marriage. My dad adored my mom.
• 4:15
  They were like best of friends. And so it's all very happy home,
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  a beautiful marriage. My grandmother played a big part
• 4:23
  in my life. She was like a second mother.
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  She would tell us, you know, bedtime stories.
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  She taught me to do embroidery and crocheting.
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  And she was just wonderful. And her name was Fatima, and we
• 4:40
  called her Maji. Yeah.
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  And so she was. She was wonderful.
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  So very happy home growing up and we, like I said, we didn't
• 4:48
  practice Islam as you see on TV, but we did grow up knowing that
• 4:54
  we are Muslim, that we are born Muslims, we're going to die
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  Muslims. And there was not an Islam is
• 5:01
  the true religion. So knowing that we are Muslim,
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  but not really following it, as you would say to the T in that
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  way. But my parents did teach us to
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  love God to to love Allah, to serve him, to be kind, to love
• 5:23
  our neighbors and do good deeds. So the true introduction to God
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  really came from my parents. And it wasn't the God of Islam
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  really that I was introduced to, but it was the God of love.
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  And that was what the seed was in my heart about God.
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  As with being daughters, we were taught to be obedient to
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  parents. That's very much the Eastern
• 5:50
  culture and the Islamic culture. So my sisters and I never
• 5:55
  questioned our parents. We knew we'd do what our parents
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  tell us. And being girls, we were raised
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  to be good mothers and good wives.
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  Nobody really asked. Parents didn't really ask, like
• 6:07
  who, who do you want to be when you grow up, or what are your
• 6:10
  dreams? Or that was never the point.
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  It was about getting married, having children and marriage was
• 6:17
  the goal. So when I was 16, my parents
• 6:21
  arranged my marriage to a son of their friend who was 10 years
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  older than me. And they thought it was a good
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  match because he also grew up in Africa, and they thought we'd
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  have a lot in common. And so I didn't really argue
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  with it because I was raised to be obedient, and I accepted it.
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  And at this time, I've been reading a lot of books.
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  So I was reading a lot of romance novels.
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  And when my parents, you know, picked him and I'd seen him,
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  it's not like I'd never met him. I didn't really argue with it
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  because the romance novels were such a big part.
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  You know, I thought I was going to marry my knight in shining
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  armor, and I accepted it. Well, when I became a junior in
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  high school and all my friends were talking about going to
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  college and, you know, somebody's going to Australia
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  and somebody's going to England, someone's going to America and
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  they're going to study. That was the first.
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  Time that I really thought about what could I be or what could I
• 7:23
  do and I told my parents I wanted to go to college, I
• 7:28
  didn't want to get married. And my dad said I had to get
• 7:32
  permission from my fiance because he, you know, now I
• 7:38
  belong to him. And he of course said I, he
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  didn't give me permission. So I was not allowed to go to
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  college. And, and that was a very hard
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  moment for me because I remember feeling like this window to the
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  world had opened up and all of a sudden everything shut down.
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  The door slammed shut. And now I was just, I have to
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  get married. I had no rights.
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  And you were 16. And I was 16.
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  And when you asked your fiance for permission, so your parents
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  arranged this marriage, was he in Africa at that point with you
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  or was he back in Pakistan at that?
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  Point he was actually in America studying.
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  So he was at college? He was at college.
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  He was 10 years older than me. He was getting his master's and
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  but he said I had no need to go to college.
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  What's what's that for? And so he said no.
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  And once he said no, that was it.
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  So my mom just consoled me and told me, you know, you need to
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  get married. There's and just, you know, kind
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  of try to comfort me. But I had to do what he said.
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  And I felt like property. I felt I had no rights.
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  It didn't matter what I wanted. And I don't think that girls in
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  America even understand remotely what that feels like.
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  You know, we talk so much about freedom here, but I don't think
• 9:00
  they understand how when they complain about not having enough
• 9:04
  freedom, I don't think they understand what not having
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  freedom looks like that when you're 16 and you're just
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  starting to blossom or explore your, the possibilities of what
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  life could be and somebody just takes that away from you and you
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  herded like cattle to this place.
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  And so, but I do want to say I, I, I'm not upset with my parents
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  at all. And I know whatever they did,
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  they didn't do it to control me. They did it because they thought
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  that was the best thing for me, because they were very loving
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  people. It was never to hurt me, but
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  they thought what they were doing was the best thing for me.
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  And girls are considered burden in the culture so.
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  We were. Three, in the Muslim culture,
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  you know, they rejoice when a son is born, but when a daughter
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  is born, you know, you accept it.
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  Some don't even, you know, they'll the, the girls are not
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  treated as well in general. I'm just saying in the Muslim
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  culture. So as daughters, my father felt
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  a burden. He wanted to make sure we were
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  married and settled and and so I know they were doing what they
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  thought was best. But for me, from my perspective,
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  the doors shut for my life and I was at a fork where my life
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  could have gone in One Direction if I got the opportunity to go
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  to college and instead I was given in marriage.
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  So when I graduated high school, we moved to, we went to Pakistan
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  and I was married. I I was 18 and after graduating
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  high school I was married in Pakistan.
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  What does that feel like in the months and weeks leading up to
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  your marriage, you are just left your friends, everything that
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  you knew you're back in the country you were born in, but
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  you hadn't like grown up and and there's a man that you've met
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  how many times at this point? Now I had met him once in the
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  summer in between so I I had gotten to know him a little, but
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  it was. Still.
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  Very unknown. You think about when you're 17
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  is when I saw him again. I was so young.
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  I, you know, I was a kid and he was at that time, I think 2627.
• 11:24
  So there's a huge age gap too. There have been so many times
• 11:28
  when I've been looking for an OBGYN or a pediatrician or a
• 11:31
  family doctor when I wonder, is this doctor pro-life?
• 11:36
  So how do we find pro-life doctors?
• 11:38
  I am so thankful to my friends over at Presidio They have
• 11:41
  launched pro-life providers.com. Pro-life providers.com is a
• 11:45
  values based platform where you can find doctors that share your
• 11:49
  values from everything from infertility to vaccine schedules
• 11:53
  to abortion. Don't settle when it comes to
• 11:55
  your family's health. Find the best doctors.
• 11:57
  That's pro-life providers.com. But in my mind, I think I tried
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  to, because you have to deal with what's given to you.
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  So once I had no opportunity to go anywhere, I just had to
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  accept it. And so I convinced myself that
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  this was actually a romantic grape thing.
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  So when we moved to Pakistan to for the, when we went there for
• 12:21
  the wedding, there was, you know, Muslim weddings are a big
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  affair. So there's the henna ceremony.
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  There's like, you know, days leading up to it and there's all
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  this celebration. But I'd like to tell all the
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  brides here, the girls who are getting ready to get married,
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  you get to pick where your wedding's going to be.
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  You get to pick what you're going to wear.
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  You get to pick the makeup person, you get to pick
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  everything. And you pick the groom.
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  And you pick the groom. Most importantly.
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  You pick the. Guy Well, for me, I didn't get
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  to pick what I'm going to wear. I I mean this place I was sent
• 12:56
  to to get ready for the wedding, the clothes were picked for me,
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  the venue was picked for me. The parents all made the
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  decisions. And I just felt like cattle,
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  just being LED. Nobody asked me what do you want
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  or how do you feel? So there's this whole.
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  Huge celebration that went on for a week and I had no part in
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  it. And so the wedding, you know,
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  happened and I was still, you know, starry eyed, thinking I'm
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  going to be marrying this man who's going to love me.
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  I wanted the way the marriage that my parents had.
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  That's what I had seen. And unfortunately, that dream
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  was crushed the day after I got married.
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  And my husband was nothing like the knight in shining armor.
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  And he was. Now I'm.
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  In. In the Muslim culture you live
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  with your in laws. So I got married and I moved
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  into my parents in laws home. That's where we lived.
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  So now I have a mother-in-law, father-in-law who I need
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  permission for everything from them.
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  I couldn't drive, couldn't go anywhere and and my parents left
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  to go back to Africa. So now I am in this country
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  where I don't know really a lot of people.
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  My family from my mother's side lived in Karachi, but they lived
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  on the other end of the town. So I was kind of isolated with
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  this family and they were Sunni and I was Shia.
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  So there was a huge difference with that and.
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  I. Didn't realize what Islam really
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  was. My first introduction was after
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  I got married. What Islam truly is in practice
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  because my mother-in-law prayed five times a day, My
• 14:43
  father-in-law did as well. They, you know, he went to for
• 14:46
  the Friday prayers and everything, every, my
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  mother-in-law sat with the Quran all day long.
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  And there was, it was a very Islamic home.
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  And my husband who had spent all these years in Africa became
• 14:59
  very traditional now that we were in Pakistan.
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  And he showed me no respect and I had no rights, no value.
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  I, I was seeking love. That's what I really wanted as a
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  18 year old, you know, romantic. And he had no time for that.
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  And I think the thing that crushed me the most was the lack
• 15:28
  of respect of me as a person. He, it didn't matter if I hurt
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  or I missed my parents or felt anything, he would just laugh at
• 15:38
  me or just kind of shoo me away. And the rejection that I felt
• 15:44
  really crushed me because it was like overnight my dreams just
• 15:48
  shattered. And I was like, I woke up and
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  I'm in this nightmare in a country that I was born in but I
• 15:55
  didn't really understand or live or had lived in.
• 15:59
  And a culture I didn't understand because it was very
• 16:02
  different than the home I had grown up in and a religion that
• 16:06
  I knew I belonged to but was practiced so differently.
• 16:11
  And it was a really tough time. I felt I had come into a prison.
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  I remember in our bedroom there was a window and there were bars
• 16:21
  on it. And I remember standing, holding
• 16:24
  the bars, looking out and crying, feeling like I was in
• 16:28
  prison and there was no way out. Divorce is not something that is
• 16:33
  accepted in the Islamic culture, especially for a woman to do
• 16:38
  that, it would bring a great amount of shame.
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  And in my family, nobody had ever gotten divorced.
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  So I knew that at 18, I had just entered into a life sentence,
• 16:51
  and I had to live in this and survive it.
• 16:55
  And I got very, very depressed. My mother-in-law didn't really
• 17:00
  show me much respect. She would kind of tell me how
• 17:06
  disappointed she was that I didn't pray the namaz or I
• 17:10
  dressed in Western clothes. So very quickly, within a few
• 17:14
  months, I changed my dressing. I started to wear the
• 17:17
  traditional Pakistani clothes and I learned the namaz and I
• 17:23
  started to read the Quran because I knew if I wanted any
• 17:26
  respect, I better do this. And also my only way out of this
• 17:32
  place was going to be through God's help, so I needed God.
• 17:36
  And so I started practicing Islam and my husband and I had a
• 17:41
  very dry relationship. He just seemed disinterested
• 17:47
  emotionally. It was a big, huge emotional
• 17:50
  rejection. So I felt very alone.
• 17:52
  So I would turn to God and I would pray five times a day and
• 17:56
  I came across the Quran. There's a chapter that is
• 18:00
  dedicated to the Virgin Mary and that is the first time I read
• 18:05
  about Mariam. She is the mother of the prophet
• 18:08
  Isa. And I fell in love with her.
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  I was amazed at her beauty, her holiness, and she there was
• 18:16
  something about her that just drew me.
• 18:17
  So I started to read that chapter every single day and I
• 18:21
  would just beg Allah to save me, to somehow Get Me Out of here.
• 18:26
  And it's a very long story. I've written a book because of
• 18:30
  all the details. Just so hard to get into.
• 18:32
  But God did hear my prayers and I was able to get out of
• 18:38
  Pakistan. My husband got a job in the UAE
• 18:42
  and we moved there after three years of living in Pakistan.
• 18:45
  So at least now I didn't have to live with my in laws and that
• 18:49
  was a relief. I had a daughter at this point,
• 18:52
  so I was glad that she wouldn't be growing up in Pakistan.
• 18:56
  And so we moved to the United Arab Emirates and that was, that
• 19:00
  was better. But sadly the marriage was not
• 19:04
  any better. And the UAE is also a Muslim
• 19:07
  country. So my husband was the one in
• 19:10
  charge. He had my passport, you know,
• 19:13
  he, he controlled everything. And but the one thing was I
• 19:17
  could take a taxi and I could go places, whereas in Pakistan, I
• 19:21
  was completely isolated. So things got a little better,
• 19:25
  but sadly, the marriage didn't. My son was born there and I
• 19:29
  spent 10 years there. And every year I'd see my
• 19:32
  parents and I would tell them I wanted to leave.
• 19:35
  I was unhappy. And they would tell me, well,
• 19:38
  you need to grow up. You know, marriage is not easy.
• 19:41
  And, and I would come back home and I would try again.
• 19:45
  And it just went from bad to worse.
• 19:48
  And he was, my husband was traveling.
• 19:50
  So he's hardly around at this point.
• 19:52
  I got very depressed. I got to a point where I was
• 19:55
  suicidal. We lived on, I think it was the
• 19:58
  17th floor, and I would stand in the balcony wanting to throw
• 20:02
  myself because I had no reason, no desire to live.
• 20:08
  But the only reason was my two children that kept me.
• 20:11
  And so I told, I finally told my dad one day on the phone.
• 20:16
  I said I don't want to live anymore.
• 20:18
  And I was also very sick. I was close to a nervous
• 20:21
  breakdown. The doctor was concerned and my
• 20:25
  dad asked me, what do you want to do?
• 20:26
  And I said, I want to go to America.
• 20:30
  And at this point, my family was, my sisters were in Canada.
• 20:35
  And you would think I would say Canada, but something in my
• 20:37
  heart said America, if I could get to America, I would be
• 20:41
  saved. And so I my dad realized that I
• 20:45
  was not doing well. And he said OK.
• 20:47
  And he sent me money to buy tickets for my children and
• 20:51
  myself. And I told my husband, I want I
• 20:53
  was going on vacation. I had family here.
• 20:56
  I have a quick question before we get to the flight to America.
• 20:59
  When you were in the UAE with the kids, your husband's
• 21:02
  traveling, did you have any friends?
• 21:04
  In the UI had a lot of friends, all Muslims.
• 21:08
  And yes I did, I did have friends and sadly it seemed to
• 21:13
  me that I was the only one who was felt who was so rejected by
• 21:17
  my husband because all my friends husbands were very
• 21:20
  different in though they're Muslim and all.
• 21:23
  But the rejection that I was suffering was really intense.
• 21:28
  It's like I had he didn't care to even look at me or spend
• 21:33
  time. He if he saw me crying, he would
• 21:35
  actually laugh at me. So it was really like a breaking
• 21:39
  down interiorly that I was going through.
• 21:43
  And then part of to the context of marriage is sexual demands.
• 21:47
  He can do what he pleases and you don't have any say to.
• 21:51
  Correct. And that's that can.
• 21:53
  Felt like property, felt like an object.
• 21:55
  Yeah, and that's highly de depersonalizing.
• 21:58
  Were you able to share this with friends or was it something you
• 22:00
  only shared with your parents? No, just my parents.
• 22:04
  So it was your secret. And it was.
• 22:06
  And that's the other thing, you know, and the culture you don't
• 22:09
  show, you don't air your dirty laundry.
• 22:11
  You don't. I wanted to keep my respect and
• 22:14
  my husband's respect and all that.
• 22:16
  So I just kept it all within me. But I would tell my parents that
• 22:20
  I was unhappy and yeah. And then your sisters who are in
• 22:25
  Canada, were they in arranged marriages as well?
• 22:27
  No, actually my sisters were studying.
• 22:31
  They were studying going to College in Canada.
• 22:36
  So my parents did not do that with them, thankfully, and they
• 22:42
  got an opportunity to live in more freedom and choose their
• 22:46
  own spouses. And is that because they
• 22:48
  thought, shoot, we've made a mistake with Nikki?
• 22:52
  I think maybe maybe they've never really said why they have
• 22:57
  when I we have talked about the arraigned marriage and why they
• 23:00
  did it. This is years later.
• 23:02
  And they said, you know, we don't know.
• 23:04
  We just felt like that's what we had to do and that was the right
• 23:07
  thing to do and they felt terrible about it.
• 23:10
  So maybe at that point they were thinking maybe a little more
• 23:14
  freedom, maybe let them go to college.
• 23:16
  Were you the older? Sister I was, yeah.
• 23:20
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• 24:16
  But at this point, your dad, they know what your how much
• 24:19
  you're suffering to the point of mental health collapse.
• 24:22
  Right. And I, but I don't think they
• 24:24
  really thought it was going to be a divorce.
• 24:27
  I think they thought she needs a break and that's what it was
• 24:30
  for. And so I told my husband that's
• 24:33
  what I was going to do. And he was traveling a lot, but
• 24:39
  he had my passport. He started to get an ID.
• 24:42
  I wasn't, I was up to more than just going on vacation.
• 24:45
  And he wouldn't let me go. And that day that I left the UAE
• 24:50
  was very stressful. It was an escape.
• 24:54
  I had planned it for so long. And then he hit my passport at
• 24:57
  the end. And it was AI was afraid I would
• 25:01
  never get out. But I called my dad and I said
• 25:04
  he's not letting me go. And my dad told him, you know,
• 25:07
  you need to let her take a vacation and for, you know,
• 25:11
  thanks be to God, he listened. And he gave me my passport, but
• 25:16
  he wouldn't drive me and and. The thing is, in the UAE, it's a
• 25:21
  Muslim country, so if the husband were to call the airport
• 25:23
  and say she's leaving without my permission, they would stop me.
• 25:29
  So even when I got to the airport and going through
• 25:32
  security, I just didn't know when that somebody was going to
• 25:35
  tap me on my shoulder and say, you know, take, take my kids,
• 25:38
  take me back, you know. You're with your bed, Yeah.
• 25:42
  And the kids belong to the father, so he could have stopped
• 25:45
  me. It wasn't until I landed with my
• 25:50
  two kids in New York in 1999 that day.
• 25:54
  That I finally let go of my kids.
• 25:57
  I sat on the whole flight, clutching them, holding them
• 26:00
  because I was so afraid somebody would get on a plane, take my
• 26:03
  kids and I wasn't sure we were going to get free.
• 26:06
  And but when I landed, I wanted to kiss the ground when I got
• 26:10
  off that plane. Because for the first.
• 26:12
  Time as a woman I felt free that I know somebody couldn't do it
• 26:19
  nobody could do anything to me and thankfully I came in you
• 26:22
  know, I had a. Visa.
• 26:24
  That was on my passport because we traveled so much.
• 26:27
  So I was able to come here legally.
• 26:30
  There was no reason I could get in trouble.
• 26:33
  And I was free as a woman with my two kids.
• 26:37
  And I think I just kind of collapsed once I got here.
• 26:41
  And my aunt and uncle, you know, I stayed with them for a few
• 26:44
  months and my uncle taught me how to drive.
• 26:47
  I was 30 years old. Again, another freedom that.
• 26:50
  You know, girls take for granted, people take for
• 26:53
  granted, but especially women that you get your license at 16
• 26:57
  and you're free and you go here and you go there.
• 27:00
  And I was 30 and I was a complete prisoner.
• 27:03
  And so when I got my license and I remember driving off that used
• 27:07
  parking lot with my car, it was a Rav 4.
• 27:10
  I felt like a queen. I felt so free driving, thinking
• 27:15
  now I can go where I want to go. I was 30 at that time and I
• 27:21
  started a new life. My uncle helped me find a job
• 27:25
  and the company sponsored me and I got my work visa, kids got to
• 27:30
  school and I was finally able to begin a new life in between my
• 27:35
  husband. Well, my husband did follow me
• 27:37
  and, you know, try to reconcile. And under pressure I did for six
• 27:42
  months or so before I filed for divorce.
• 27:45
  Like it was unbearable. So he at some point he figured
• 27:49
  out this is not a vacation. She does not want you.
• 27:51
  And, and you told him I want a divorce and then he said, don't
• 27:54
  divorce me. Let's like I, I must, you know,
• 27:56
  he, he tried to reconcile at that point.
• 27:59
  And what did reconciling for him look like?
• 28:01
  Well. Living together.
• 28:04
  So he moved in with me here and my mother had kind of gotten
• 28:09
  sick. She was just so devastated about
• 28:12
  this divorce that I would do that.
• 28:15
  So there was a lot of pressure I was under and I finally crumbled
• 28:18
  and I said OK, I'll give it a try.
• 28:20
  So he moved in with me and we lived together for about I think
• 28:24
  6 or 8 months until it was worse than before because he was angry
• 28:29
  now with me and and I just couldn't do it.
• 28:33
  So that's when I filed for divorce and had to go through a
• 28:39
  lot with that also because he threatened to kidnap the kids
• 28:43
  and it was just a lot of tension and fear.
• 28:46
  But because I lived in a country where I had rights and there was
• 28:51
  a law that did not lean just towards the husband, that I was
• 28:57
  able to get free and have my children and begin a new life.
• 29:02
  America gave me a new life, but in so many more ways than I even
• 29:08
  knew at that time what I was going to get.
• 29:10
  And so all through this, I've been practicing Islam very
• 29:13
  faithfully. I had become more Muslim than my
• 29:17
  parents at this point because God had been my only hope and I
• 29:22
  was clinging on to him and I was doing everything I knew that I
• 29:25
  should as a Muslim. So I was praying, fasting,
• 29:30
  reading the Quran and everything.
• 29:33
  And now that I was finally free from my husband, I had a life.
• 29:38
  I had work, I the kids had a Quran teacher.
• 29:41
  I wanted to make sure I was a good mother and they were
• 29:45
  learning the faith. And I was praying, begging God
• 29:49
  now to reveal Himself. My prayer had changed because
• 29:53
  now I didn't need Allah to save me and I wanted to know who he
• 29:58
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• 30:03
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• 31:03
  I have a question about your view of your value, because I
• 31:08
  think this is such a key to even the courage that you had to try
• 31:14
  to find freedom as you're as you're sharing.
• 31:17
  And and again, I want to say because people listen to the
• 31:20
  show knows how much we value marriage.
• 31:22
  You're in an Islamic marriage where you didn't have you didn't
• 31:26
  go into it with freedom. You went into it with coercion
• 31:29
  and a principle for both natural marriage and Sacramento marriage
• 31:33
  for it to be valid. A real marriage is that there's
• 31:35
  freedom. It's a yes, I choose this as
• 31:39
  opposed to it's chosen for me. Now, you can technically choose
• 31:42
  an arranged marriage if you say, yes, I completely choose this.
• 31:45
  And you have a lot of information about the person.
• 31:47
  And that can technically work, but it has to, again, be full
• 31:50
  freedom. And I think that element of
• 31:53
  freedom is so important, but people do not really understand,
• 31:57
  may not understand freedom if they don't know their value.
• 32:01
  And you were blessed, like you were saying with parents that it
• 32:03
  sounds like really valued you. They loved you and they valued
• 32:07
  each other and they didn't realize what they were putting
• 32:10
  you into. It sounds like they regretted
• 32:12
  it, did they? I'm curious.
• 32:15
  I know we're going to get to your, you know, these incredible
• 32:17
  experiences you would have next, which are absolutely mind
• 32:20
  blowing. But I'm curious if you had
• 32:23
  conversations with your parents about your decision to leave
• 32:26
  your husband. You said your mother was crying.
• 32:28
  She was sick. It's like a big, shameful thing
• 32:30
  in Muslim culture. Did did they come around at some
• 32:34
  point? Did you?
• 32:37
  And then also, how did you reconcile your Muslim faith?
• 32:40
  Because you're practicing Muslim at this point with your decision
• 32:43
  to leave your husband. Well, the decision to leave my
• 32:46
  husband was really survival because I was I was going to end
• 32:50
  up dead if I didn't leave him. And I had two children, so I'd
• 32:56
  never believed that God who my parents had taught me about the
• 33:00
  kind of God he is. God, my parents showed, taught
• 33:03
  me about love. So that's my first school where
• 33:07
  I learned about God and I associated God with love, even
• 33:11
  though in Islam it's not really something you hear about.
• 33:14
  God and love Allah and love. It's more about obedience.
• 33:18
  So I didn't think that God that I knew would want me to just die
• 33:24
  and suffer like this. I believed.
• 33:27
  In my heart that God did love me and so I had to and get free and
• 33:33
  for the sake of my children survive.
• 33:36
  But I was trying to be obedient through it all and and love God
• 33:40
  and do everything I could to serve him the best that I knew
• 33:43
  that I could. And I believed that my best
• 33:47
  submission to God was worshipping him.
• 33:50
  So I spent hours on the prayer mat every day, like at the end
• 33:53
  of the day, at night I would be on the prayer mat for hours,
• 33:57
  worshipping him, praying the namaz, reading the Quran and
• 34:01
  then. I would just.
• 34:02
  Pray and beg and say, Allah, who are you?
• 34:05
  This was this. Burning cry in my heart to know
• 34:08
  who God was. And that's not something very
• 34:11
  common in Islam, because when I would tell my friends, all my
• 34:15
  friends are Muslim in America also, by the way.
• 34:18
  Because I believed every non-muslim was going to go to
• 34:21
  hell. Now I didn't believe about
• 34:22
  killing them, but I did believe that they were not going to go
• 34:26
  to heaven, they were going to hell because they didn't believe
• 34:30
  in Allah, they didn't believe in Muhammad.
• 34:33
  So all my friends are Muslim. And I would, when we would talk,
• 34:37
  I would tell my friends, yeah, I really want to know who Allah
• 34:40
  is. I'm, you know, I'm just not
• 34:42
  satisfied. And they would look at me and
• 34:44
  say, well, you're reading the Quran, you're praying the namaz,
• 34:46
  you're fasting, you're doing all these things.
• 34:49
  What more do you want? But I knew there was more and I
• 34:53
  wanted. It and when I would be on the
• 34:55
  prayer mat and I'd be praying, I would see a wall in front of me
• 35:00
  in my mind, and I knew God was on the other side of the wall,
• 35:04
  but I couldn't get there. No matter how many hours I
• 35:07
  prayed, there was silence and darkness and I couldn't get past
• 35:11
  there. And so this went on.
• 35:15
  And it's so this, this was going on for about a year or two, and
• 35:20
  I would get nothing, even though I beg God.
• 35:23
  And one day I was in New York City on vacation with my kids,
• 35:29
  and TripAdvisor had Saint Patrick's Cathedral.
• 35:33
  As one of the stops and I went into Saint Patrick's Cathedral.
• 35:39
  One day just as a tourist and I walked into that church and the
• 35:44
  first thing I saw was the stained glass picture of Jesus's
• 35:48
  face and when I looked at him I felt like his eyes were alive.
• 35:54
  And he was looking right into me and it made me very
• 35:58
  uncomfortable. And I walked around and I of
• 36:02
  course the cathedral's magnificent.
• 36:03
  I'm walking around admiring it, but the whole time I felt like
• 36:07
  Jesus was following me and his eyes were piercing into my back.
• 36:12
  And when I got walked around and near the exit is a little gift
• 36:17
  shop and I was at the gift shop about to leave.
• 36:20
  And it part of me was also asking Allah's forgiveness
• 36:23
  because I was in a church where they believe in a son of God,
• 36:27
  which is blasphemy for a Muslim and their statues.
• 36:30
  And these people are worshipping and kneeling in front of
• 36:33
  statues. So you know, that's idolatry.
• 36:36
  So I was asking Allah's forgiveness, you know, La La,
• 36:39
  I'm just here to look at the building and I'm standing in
• 36:42
  this little gift shop. The kids are looking at
• 36:44
  something and I suddenly hear a woman's.
• 36:47
  Voice this whisper and I and the voice said come back, come back
• 36:55
  and I turned around and there was no one there so I thought I
• 36:59
  must be imagining things so. I go back to.
• 37:01
  Looking at whatever my kids were doing.
• 37:04
  And I heard it again, this sweet, gentle, melodious voice
• 37:09
  of a woman. And she said, come back, come
• 37:12
  back. And this time when I heard it, I
• 37:15
  knew it was Mary. I knew it.
• 37:19
  And I also knew when I heard the words come back, there was this
• 37:23
  knowing of where to go. She was calling me back into
• 37:27
  this Chapel that was hers. I didn't know she had a Chapel,
• 37:31
  but when I heard the words I knew it.
• 37:33
  She was calling me to her Chapel to come back there, so I
• 37:36
  couldn't just walk out the door because I had loved her so much
• 37:41
  as a Muslim that I couldn't just ignore her.
• 37:44
  So I went back and I went into that Chapel and I just stood
• 37:48
  there and there was this huge statue of Mary and people are
• 37:51
  kneeling and praying. And I thought, this is so
• 37:54
  beautiful, the reverence, the silence, but they're all going
• 37:58
  to hell because they're kneeling in front of a statue.
• 38:03
  And I just stood there. I wouldn't even sit there.
• 38:06
  And I waited for her to say something, but I didn't hear
• 38:11
  anything more. And but I experienced a piece
• 38:16
  that I had never experienced in my life.
• 38:19
  And so after that, the couple days I was there, I had to come.
• 38:23
  Back. And just stop in at Saint
• 38:25
  Patrick's Cathedral for a few minutes and just soak in that
• 38:29
  piece. And I went, I came back home and
• 38:33
  I thought, OK, that was a beautiful experience.
• 38:36
  You know, I love Mariam. For whatever reason, she decides
• 38:39
  to speak to me in a Christian Church, but that's OK.
• 38:42
  And I didn't think anything more and life went on.
• 38:45
  Ramadan came, I fasted and life's going on and was
• 38:49
  December. So this happened like I think it
• 38:52
  was in April and now it's December and it's the first
• 38:56
  week, it's the beginning of December.
• 38:58
  And I was asleep. And when, you know, when you're
• 39:01
  sleeping really deep and somebody gently touches you and
• 39:05
  you're kind of half awake, half asleep, and that's what
• 39:08
  happened, that somebody kind of gently touched me and I was kind
• 39:11
  of waking up. I know the sun was rising, that
• 39:15
  I see the light coming in and Jesus and Mary were at my
• 39:19
  bedside. The joy I experienced I don't
• 39:26
  have words for, but it's like I met my long lost friends that we
• 39:31
  had been separated my whole life.
• 39:34
  I was 40 years old at this point that we had been separated and
• 39:38
  now we're together and my body was on the bed.
• 39:43
  But my spirit got up and we embraced.
• 39:46
  I embraced Mary, embraced Jesus and we just rejoice.
• 39:50
  It's like my spirit was dancing with joy and we prayed together
• 39:56
  and they talked to me about my whole life.
• 39:59
  We went through my whole life. And I just remember saying yes
• 40:03
  as they were showing me saying yes to everything that was to
• 40:06
  come. And they prayed with me.
• 40:10
  And there was such a joy. And as my body was on the bed,
• 40:14
  there was a light that was being infused into the body.
• 40:18
  And when I woke up the next morning, I physically was not
• 40:23
  the same person. I had changed.
• 40:26
  Something had happened to me. My mother was visiting at this
• 40:30
  time. And I told her about this dream.
• 40:32
  And she said, well, you know, dreams, it's what's in your
• 40:35
  mind. It's December, you're talking
• 40:36
  about Christmas, That's why. And at for.
• 40:39
  And I'm having coffee and I thought, yeah, probably.
• 40:41
  But immediately I knew that's not true.
• 40:44
  That was not a dream. They were there because I
• 40:47
  physically felt touched and. And from that day on, it's like
• 40:53
  this bubble of energy came over me.
• 40:55
  It was holy. It was God, and I knew it, and
• 41:00
  it covered me and it went with me everywhere.
• 41:03
  And when I would drive to work from then on, I would hear a
• 41:08
  voice that would tell me to look, and I would look and it
• 41:13
  would point to a church. I had no idea how many churches
• 41:16
  I passed from my home to work because I'd been blind.
• 41:22
  But now I could see, I could see every church on the way.
• 41:25
  I was amazed at how many there. Were but I had never never
• 41:29
  noticed them. It's like truly I was blind.
• 41:32
  I would go into a store and if there was a Bible there or there
• 41:35
  was like, you know, anything Christian, a Hallmark store, a
• 41:40
  Dollar Tree. The only thing my eyes would be
• 41:43
  drawn to was everything that was Christian, everything that had
• 41:47
  Jesus on it or a cross. And it started to drive me crazy
• 41:52
  because I'm a Muslim. I should not.
• 41:54
  Why is this happening to me? The thing with Islam is there is
• 41:58
  so much fear and there's no freedom.
• 42:01
  You know, you talked about the freedom of the human being, the
• 42:05
  person. In Islam you have no freedom.
• 42:09
  You are born in bondage because soon as you're born you are fed
• 42:13
  fear. If you do this, if you think
• 42:15
  this, Allah will do this. You just feel that you have to
• 42:18
  do everything right or you get punished.
• 42:21
  There's this fear of punishment and all of a sudden now I'm, I'm
• 42:27
  being shown all these things and I'm so scared that God's going
• 42:31
  to be angry with me. Because in Islam, even to
• 42:34
  consider a religion or explore it is a sin.
• 42:39
  You get time because God doesn't want you to even think.
• 42:42
  So if you, you, you can't even let your mind go there.
• 42:45
  But this is all happening to me and I can't stop it.
• 42:48
  And I started having more dreams.
• 42:51
  I started to hear Mary speak to me.
• 42:53
  She would call me places. There were like these little
• 42:55
  bread crumbs that would be put before me.
• 42:58
  And I had the freedom whether I was going to do it or not.
• 43:03
  But I I just, I did because I was so drawn.
• 43:07
  And she called me to this one place.
• 43:09
  I remember it's a outdoor shrine where she had appeared.
• 43:14
  And I'd heard about it. But, you know, I'm a Muslim.
• 43:17
  I would have never explored it further.
• 43:20
  But now she was calling me there.
• 43:21
  And I went looking for this place and I found it.
• 43:25
  And I remember getting out of the car and parked in front of
• 43:28
  her statue. And now months have gone by and
• 43:30
  I'm so angry and upset with like, why this is happening to
• 43:33
  me. And I got out of the car, I
• 43:35
  slammed the door shut and I stood in front of her statue and
• 43:38
  I said, what do you want from me?
• 43:40
  Why are you doing this to me? And I felt hands on my shoulder,
• 43:46
  and I was turned when I asked that question.
• 43:49
  And I was turned and there was a Sacred Heart of Jesus statue
• 43:51
  there. And I was turned to look at.
• 43:54
  Him. And when I looked at him, I
• 43:57
  couldn't stop looking at him. I was mesmerized by him.
• 44:02
  And I started going to that place every single day.
• 44:06
  I wouldn't go to Mary, but I would go stand in front of that
• 44:10
  Sacred Heart. And all I felt were these rays
• 44:13
  of love coming out of him. And it was the love that kept
• 44:16
  bringing me back. But I couldn't in my head
• 44:18
  reconcile this. See, in Islam, Jesus is a
• 44:23
  prophet. He was born of the Virgin
• 44:26
  Mariam. They believe in a miraculous
• 44:29
  birth and he had a gift of healing as a prophet.
• 44:33
  But he was fully human and he lived and he died.
• 44:38
  The Jesus that I was experiencing, whether it was in
• 44:42
  dreams or in these encounters, this Jesus was not a prophet who
• 44:47
  had died and it. Was like a ghost or his memory
• 44:50
  or anything. He was alive.
• 44:53
  And he came with power and there was an authority and I couldn't
• 44:57
  deny it. I couldn't reconcile the Muslim
• 45:00
  Jesus with the Jesus I was meeting was very different.
• 45:05
  And I didn't want it. I wanted it to stop.
• 45:09
  I was angry with God. I said to God, I have prayed for
• 45:12
  so long asking you who you are. Why are you sending me Jesus?
• 45:17
  If you sent me Muhammad, I would understand why this Jesus, this
• 45:23
  is so difficult. Like I'm scared now but and I
• 45:27
  didn't go on the computer to research Christianity because I
• 45:32
  didn't want anything to do. With it, I'm like, I don't.
• 45:35
  Even want to look into it because it's wrong.
• 45:37
  I don't want it. So everything I went through was
• 45:41
  me and God. There was no Internet, there was
• 45:44
  no people, there was nothing. It was just my struggle with God
• 45:49
  and I would show up to this now outdoor place and sit there and
• 45:53
  there was there was a group of ladies.
• 45:56
  They were, I don't, they were not nuns, but they had a table
• 45:59
  that they had set up there because people would come there
• 46:02
  and they would play the rosary on ACD there and one day and
• 46:07
  they saw me coming every day. So one day they handed me a
• 46:10
  rosary and said you can pray with you can pray this.
• 46:13
  So I remember sitting outside with these beads, not knowing
• 46:17
  what to do with them, and I'm listening to the rosary.
• 46:19
  Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
• 46:23
  Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy
• 46:27
  womb, Jesus. I was OK with that.
• 46:30
  Holy Mary, Mother of God, I couldn't say that.
• 46:34
  So I prayed, half hailed Marys on those beads because I refuse
• 46:39
  to say the Part 2 because that's blasphemy.
• 46:42
  Mother of God, how could that be?
• 46:45
  Jesus cannot be the Son of God because there is no son of God.
• 46:50
  And so I'm going through this and, and continuously dreams and
• 46:54
  these callings are coming to me and I'm angry with God.
• 46:59
  And finally I made a deal with Jesus.
• 47:01
  I said, I'm so done with this. You won't leave me alone.
• 47:04
  So I'll make a deal with you. I will come to your church and
• 47:09
  go through a service. I'll do it all.
• 47:12
  You will tell me what you want and leave me alone.
• 47:16
  And so I picked a church. Now I didn't know denominations,
• 47:19
  I don't know what Catholic is. I didn't care.
• 47:21
  It didn't matter to me. A church was a church because
• 47:24
  all Christians are going to health according to me.
• 47:27
  So I went to the closest church by my house and they had
• 47:32
  assigned, you know, midnight service.
• 47:34
  And I went, the kids went with me and the.
• 47:37
  Kids at this point were very happy that this mom was kind of
• 47:41
  looking at these. Talking about Jesus and looking
• 47:44
  at, you know, going to a church because they weren't happy with
• 47:46
  the Islamic teacher and all that.
• 47:48
  So and they're both teenagers at this point.
• 47:52
  So we go to this church for a midnight service and it was
• 47:55
  beautiful is. This during Christmas, yes.
• 47:58
  So is this the midnight mass or is this Is this a Catholic or a?
• 48:01
  Protestant church. It was a Protestant church.
• 48:03
  Now I didn't know. To me it was a church, you know,
• 48:06
  And so they had a service. And a Christmas Eve service,
• 48:10
  Yes. Midnight, big one.
• 48:12
  Yeah, yeah. And they had like candles and
• 48:14
  everything. Growing up as a Protestant, we
• 48:17
  would have that. Yeah, it's beautiful.
• 48:18
  The pastor did a reading. Beautiful message.
• 48:21
  Everybody was welcoming. The pastor tray around with
• 48:23
  little cups of grape juice, and I took part in everything
• 48:27
  because that's my deal with Jesus.
• 48:29
  I'm going to do it all and he's going to tell me what he wants
• 48:31
  from me. I did all that.
• 48:34
  At the end, everybody's singing and we have candles and we
• 48:36
  process out and I got to my car. I am so disappointed because he
• 48:42
  wasn't there. There is this presence of Jesus
• 48:47
  that I had. I know what that I knew what it
• 48:49
  was because I'd experienced it in my dreams, but he wasn't
• 48:54
  there. Even though on the surface it
• 48:56
  was beautiful. Everything was very nice, holy,
• 49:01
  beautiful, but he wasn't there is what my heart said to me.
• 49:05
  He wasn't there. My heart was empty.
• 49:07
  I have chills, thank you. It's amazing when I think back
• 49:12
  because I didn't know what thing I'm a Muslim and I'm saying this
• 49:16
  right. So I decide to tell a friend at
• 49:19
  I've been telling a friend at work that, you know, this is
• 49:22
  happening to me and all. And she would say to me, and I
• 49:25
  don't know why I picked to tell her, but there's only this one
• 49:28
  person who I was telling. And she said to me, you have to
• 49:32
  come to my church. And I said, no thanks.
• 49:34
  I have no interest in going to a church.
• 49:36
  So now that I've been to the church, I, I, I went back, you
• 49:40
  know, to work after Christmas. And I said to her, guess what,
• 49:44
  Debbie, I went to a church and he wasn't there.
• 49:47
  And she's like, what do you mean?
• 49:48
  Where did you? Go.
• 49:49
  And I told her, and she said, you just come to my church.
• 49:53
  And I said, well, why is your church any different?
• 49:56
  A church is a church. She's like, yeah, but just come
• 49:59
  to my church, please. And so I was desperate because I
• 50:03
  needed to find this Jesus's home because we had a deal.
• 50:06
  So I said, OK, but now I'm not doing this whole service.
• 50:11
  I'm just going to do just take me when no one's there.
• 50:13
  I'll know if he's there. And so she said, fine.
• 50:17
  So she took me to her church, a Roman Catholic Church.
• 50:21
  Now, to me, it meant nothing. And we walk into this church,
• 50:26
  empty, Nobody's there. And I walk in and I take a
• 50:30
  breath and I immediately felt him.
• 50:33
  And I said he's here. I found his home.
• 50:38
  I took a deep breath and I just felt it in my heart physically.
• 50:42
  I felt his presence. And so I said, OK, Jesus, I've
• 50:46
  found your home. Now you're going to tell me what
• 50:49
  you want from me because we can't do this anymore.
• 50:53
  From that day on, I started going to that Catholic Church
• 50:55
  when no one was there in the mornings.
• 50:57
  And I would sit there in the back Pew and I would argue with
• 51:00
  the crucifix and I would tell him you're not the Son of God.
• 51:05
  There's no son of God, and why are you doing this to me?
• 51:09
  Leave me alone. This went on for months.
• 51:13
  Every single day I was there, I worked, I was in marketing, so I
• 51:17
  had the flexibility to do my schedule and I he was on my
• 51:21
  schedule every day and I would make time.
• 51:24
  I would, I would be angry when I would start and at the end of
• 51:28
  after telling him all that, I would tell him about my day.
• 51:31
  I would share everything that was happening, and then I would
• 51:35
  leave feeling peace, and I would come back and do the same thing.
• 51:38
  I didn't realize that this Jesus, who I was coming in upset
• 51:42
  with had actually become my best friend because here I would
• 51:46
  share everything with him and walk out peace.
• 51:49
  And so this went on for months. And finally one day I think he
• 51:56
  had enough. I went in, I sat down, I did the
• 51:59
  same thing. You're not the Son of God.
• 52:01
  Why are you doing this to me? And that day in that empty
• 52:05
  Catholic Church, I heard God's audible voice echo in that
• 52:09
  church. And he said to me, Who are you
• 52:13
  to tell me who I can be and cannot be?
• 52:18
  If you really want to know the truth, come back like a child
• 52:23
  and I will tell you the truth. And I ran out of the church.
• 52:29
  The voice had so much power and authority, but there was so much
• 52:35
  love in the voice and it was a very clear yes or no.
• 52:42
  It wasn't, you know, it wasn't confusing.
• 52:45
  It was very. Clear the message.
• 52:47
  And he was right. Who was I to say that God
• 52:51
  couldn't have a son? Because somebody had told me who
• 52:56
  was told by somebody else, by somebody else, that God doesn't
• 53:00
  have a son. But God himself spoke to me and
• 53:05
  said, who are you? And that was true.
• 53:07
  Who was I? He could have a son if God, if
• 53:10
  God wants to have a son, he can. And he said, if you want to know
• 53:16
  the truth. And I had been on this journey
• 53:18
  seeking truth about God. That had been my quest was
• 53:22
  truth. What is the truth about God, the
• 53:25
  divine truth? And he said if you want it, then
• 53:30
  come back like a child, which means there is a truth if you
• 53:33
  want it, but come back like a child so he can tell me.
• 53:38
  And he gave me a promise I will tell you the truth.
• 53:44
  I knew that it was going to cost me a lot.
• 53:48
  I knew my life was going to change and I was going to
• 53:52
  suffer, but I wanted. The truth at all costs.
• 53:57
  So I came back. And I sat down in the empty
• 54:01
  church again, and I was 40 years old, and I emptied my mind of
• 54:07
  everything I had ever been taught.
• 54:10
  And that's very hard for a Muslim to put down the Muslim
• 54:14
  box, open it up and say, God, you tell me.
• 54:19
  And I as soon as I did that, there was a bolt of light that
• 54:23
  came from the crucifix and it hit my heart and it went through
• 54:28
  my body and I started to shake and sob and shake.
• 54:33
  And all my mouth would say was, I believe, I believe you are the
• 54:38
  Son of God. I believe, I believe you are the
• 54:41
  Son of God. Because Jesus was in front of
• 54:43
  me. And there was this infusion of
• 54:46
  knowledge. I knew, I knew he was the Son of
• 54:50
  God. There are no words to describe
• 54:55
  what God did for me in that instant.
• 54:59
  I can never thank Him enough for what He gave me in that instant,
• 55:04
  But He gave me the greatest treasure, which is the truth
• 55:08
  that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
• 55:11
  He came to save me from my sins because there was no way I could
• 55:17
  pay the price, but He took it upon himself and came and died
• 55:23
  on that cross so I could be saved.
• 55:25
  And that day I accepted his death on the cross for my sake.
• 55:30
  How all that happened it I'm trying to put words to it, but
• 55:35
  it it happened wordlessly. It's like my spirit got it.
• 55:40
  My brain wasn't. I don't know where it was, but
• 55:43
  in my spirit I knew the truth. And my all I could say is I
• 55:48
  believe. I believe because I denied him
• 55:51
  for so long, because I would say you are not, you are not.
• 55:54
  And now all I could say is you are.
• 55:56
  You are. And I don't know for how long I
• 56:00
  cried. I mean, gut wrenching sobs of
• 56:04
  like somebody who had been in a desert for their whole life and
• 56:07
  had finally found water and just the joy of that.
• 56:14
  And as I was going through that, the wall that I would always see
• 56:19
  before me when I would pray as a Muslim, I saw the wall crumbling
• 56:24
  in front of my eyes. And on the other side was God
• 56:27
  the Father. I was finally able to get past
• 56:32
  that wall. And God the Father said to me, I
• 56:35
  have waited so long for you. And there were waves of love
• 56:40
  that came from the Father that I, I don't know how I didn't
• 56:44
  just fall over. There were physical waves of
• 56:47
  love. Coming at me.
• 56:51
  You know, Jesus, I was seeking truth and I thought it wasn't.
• 56:57
  It was something in the head like a philosophy, like an idea
• 57:01
  that I was going to find this truth about God.
• 57:05
  But that day I realized that God, the truth about God, it's a
• 57:10
  person. Truth is not an idea or a
• 57:13
  philosophy or someone's opinion. Truth is a person and he has a
• 57:19
  name and his name is Jesus Christ.
• 57:23
  He said I am the way, the truth and the life, and no one comes
• 57:27
  to the Father except through me. I was trying to get to God the
• 57:32
  Father without the Son. I was begging him, worshipping
• 57:37
  him, doing everything I could, but I couldn't get there because
• 57:42
  I kept denying the Son. But Jesus is the door to the
• 57:46
  Father's heart. When you accept the Son, you
• 57:50
  meet the Father. You can love God.
• 57:53
  There are Muslims that love God. There are Jewish people that
• 57:56
  love God. There are people that just love
• 57:58
  God who practice no religion, but, you know, believe in God.
• 58:04
  I was one of them. But it's like you live outside
• 58:08
  the house. God's in the house, you're on
• 58:12
  the outside and you're just loving him through the outside.
• 58:17
  When you accept Jesus, the door opens and you get to go in and
• 58:21
  you get to sit on the lap of the Father, and he tells you, you
• 58:25
  are my daughter and I love you and you are my son and I love
• 58:30
  you. You become a son, you become a
• 58:32
  daughter, you come into relationship.
• 58:35
  Before Jesus, I had no relationship.
• 58:38
  I loved God. But I had no relationship with
• 58:42
  him. But that day he came to dwell in
• 58:46
  me and I got to dwell in him and we I became his daughter.
• 58:50
  I went from being an orphan to a daughter.
• 58:54
  And my life was completely transformed.
• 58:58
  And I said, I don't know how long I spend that day.
• 59:00
  But when I walked out, I remember looking, it felt like
• 59:05
  the colors were brighter. Everything seemed clear and I
• 59:09
  felt I had received the greatest treasure, the treasure of truth.
• 59:14
  I don't think we realize that how lies hurt us.
• 59:20
  They cut into the core of who we are.
• 59:24
  That's why I think Jesus said that Satan is the father of all
• 59:27
  lies, because lies destroy us. But truth saves us.
• 59:34
  It restores us. It gives us new life.
• 59:38
  And when I walked out, I felt that I had been given new life,
• 59:42
  that God had breathed his life into me.
• 59:45
  I was a new creation. I was born again is what I felt
• 59:49
  new that day. And going back to the romance
• 59:53
  novels, you know, I think about Sleeping Beauty when the Prince
• 59:58
  comes and he gives her that kiss of life and she comes alive.
• 1:00:03
  You know Jesus gave me that kiss of life.
• 1:00:07
  And it was the truth and I got a new life and but I was 40 and I
• 1:00:13
  had a whole life that was built on Islam and my friends were
• 1:00:17
  Muslim, my family's Muslim. Everything I had built was on
• 1:00:22
  Islam. And now to leave the religion
• 1:00:27
  would completely shatter everything and my parents
• 1:00:32
  specially the pain I would cause them.
• 1:00:35
  But I. I had found truth and I couldn't
• 1:00:38
  live a lie. You know, once you know the
• 1:00:41
  truth, you cannot live a lie. And so I had to live that.
• 1:00:47
  And that was a whole other journey of.
• 1:00:50
  You know, it's one thing to find Jesus, is another to follow Him.
• 1:00:55
  What did it look like when you left that church?
• 1:00:58
  What were the next steps for you?
• 1:00:59
  I mean, there's baptism, there's sacraments and you are Muslim,
• 1:01:05
  like you said, deeply ingrained and Muslim community and
• 1:01:10
  practicing as a Muslim now everything slipped on its head.
• 1:01:13
  What did you do next and how did you begin to become?
• 1:01:17
  Did you start becoming Catholic next?
• 1:01:19
  Did you talk to some other Muslims or maybe parents next?
• 1:01:23
  Well, I started going to Mass now because until now I just
• 1:01:27
  gone to sit alone when no one was there.
• 1:01:30
  But now I would go when there was Mass in the morning and I'd
• 1:01:33
  sit in the back Pew and listen. And there was a priest who was
• 1:01:37
  from Africa who was there for the summer, and he was preaching
• 1:01:40
  very powerfully was from the Gospel of John.
• 1:01:44
  If you are my disciples, you will know the truth and the
• 1:01:47
  truth will set you free. And when Father said those words
• 1:01:51
  and he was preaching, I felt this fire go over me, just threw
• 1:01:57
  me, and I started to shake. And cry.
• 1:01:59
  And I knew I could not. Be a spectator anymore.
• 1:02:04
  I had to, I had to do something. And so I ran after the priest
• 1:02:08
  and I told him, you know, I was a Muslim.
• 1:02:11
  I didn't know what to do. And he talked to me and kind of
• 1:02:15
  walked me through it all. And I finally had to tell my
• 1:02:19
  parents. I knew I had to become Catholic.
• 1:02:21
  I mean, that's one thing. When Jesus called me, he didn't
• 1:02:25
  take me church to church to church to look.
• 1:02:28
  He took me straight to the Catholic Church, told me he was
• 1:02:32
  there, felt it as a Muslim, his presence.
• 1:02:35
  I didn't know what the Eucharist was.
• 1:02:37
  I didn't know what Catholics believe.
• 1:02:38
  But he, he showed me this is where I need to be.
• 1:02:42
  So I didn't thankfully have to go searching once I found
• 1:02:45
  Christ. So I knew I had to become
• 1:02:48
  Catholic and there was a process to it to go through our CIA, but
• 1:02:52
  I had to tell my parents and that was very difficult
• 1:02:55
  conversation. And my mother just broke down
• 1:03:01
  and she ended up getting sick very and I felt very guilty,
• 1:03:06
  just the sadness and all that. And, and they begged me not to
• 1:03:11
  do it. They said that's OK if you want
• 1:03:14
  to go to church, that's fine. Just don't change your religion
• 1:03:18
  because my mother said, you know, you'll go to hell for
• 1:03:21
  that. And, and they are, they talked
• 1:03:25
  to me and I've, and finally they said to me, does not the
• 1:03:28
  Christian faith say honor your mother and father?
• 1:03:32
  And I said, yeah, it does. But the first commandment is to
• 1:03:36
  love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your mind.
• 1:03:39
  So I do honor you, but I first have to honor God and I have to
• 1:03:44
  do this. And it was very hard.
• 1:03:47
  And but again, like I said, my parents are loving people.
• 1:03:50
  It's not like they would kill me or reject me or, but I could
• 1:03:53
  tell everything got strained. I lost all my friends that were
• 1:03:56
  Muslim. They thought I was demon
• 1:03:58
  possessed. They all abandoned me one by
• 1:04:04
  one, slowly. I mean, there's just no way that
• 1:04:06
  relationships could continue and I ended up being very alone.
• 1:04:11
  Did you, when you would pray during this time, would you ask
• 1:04:15
  the Lord like Jesus, like can you please help my parents see
• 1:04:18
  you too? Like what was your prayer life
• 1:04:21
  like during this very intense now time of struggle where
• 1:04:24
  you're losing your family, your community?
• 1:04:28
  It's scary because these are the people that love you and they're
• 1:04:32
  saying now you're going to hell. I think because His love was so
• 1:04:38
  intense at this, like I was so filled with love.
• 1:04:43
  I was receiving His love and feeling that I was on a high
• 1:04:48
  with that and even though it hurt with when they did it, but
• 1:04:53
  on the other side was Jesus and He was enough.
• 1:04:57
  So I don't know that I really prayed like that.
• 1:05:00
  I think I was just in love. I was just in.
• 1:05:04
  Love how beautiful, but a consolation.
• 1:05:08
  I was talking with Jonna Shuster about consolation, feeling God's
• 1:05:12
  love and how as Christians, Catholics were called to He
• 1:05:16
  wants us to feel it often. I think we're so used to in the
• 1:05:20
  modern world being in a feeling of desolation, but that's not
• 1:05:24
  the that's not the state we're supposed to live in as
• 1:05:26
  Christians. So it's just like this breath of
• 1:05:29
  fresh air to hear you talk about it and your experience with it.
• 1:05:33
  I'm not saying you've always like I know there's times for
• 1:05:35
  different reasons, the Lord may have us in a different season
• 1:05:37
  where we don't feel it as much that, you know, there's a
• 1:05:41
  dryness, but he was with you in that way where it wasn't even
• 1:05:44
  the privilege. God, what do I do?
• 1:05:46
  You were just love. Just the overflow of just his
• 1:05:50
  love. His love was enough.
• 1:05:53
  So what was it like to be baptized and to receive First
• 1:05:57
  Communion? I think I was floating, like I
• 1:06:01
  just remember feeling this joy. I don't think I could stop
• 1:06:05
  smiling that whole day. There's just no words when I
• 1:06:10
  received Holy Communion and and it was the priest who had
• 1:06:15
  actually walked with me, Father Gregory is the one who was back
• 1:06:19
  in town and he baptized me and and gave me first Holy
• 1:06:24
  Communion. And it was the most incredible
• 1:06:26
  day. Just, you know, people have a
• 1:06:29
  hard time believing, OK, how is a Jesus in that piece of bread?
• 1:06:34
  Or how do Catholics believe that?
• 1:06:35
  Or how? But, and sometimes, you know,
• 1:06:39
  during Mass, when the priest elevates the host and I'm human,
• 1:06:42
  you know, think like really that's God.
• 1:06:45
  Like, you know, you think about it.
• 1:06:47
  But then the words come back to me when he said to me, who are
• 1:06:50
  you to tell me I cannot be that? I cannot have a son.
• 1:06:55
  So who am I to say that God cannot be fully present in that
• 1:07:01
  piece of bread? And I can say now, after all
• 1:07:04
  these years, the grace that comes from it has transformed
• 1:07:07
  me. It's true.
• 1:07:10
  It's amazing. It is Jesus.
• 1:07:12
  Well, it's just so beautiful how you describe it.
• 1:07:14
  It's the truth of our faith that the only right of the Father is
• 1:07:18
  to the Son. And in his radical humanity, I
• 1:07:22
  mean, he is a he is a human, you know, he has human nature and he
• 1:07:26
  is God, right? This is the great mystery that
• 1:07:28
  defies, you know, the, the, the, the natural order as we can
• 1:07:32
  understand it, right? And similarly, you know, it's,
• 1:07:36
  and that's why it's divine revelation.
• 1:07:37
  He is divine revelation. And similarly, Jesus in the
• 1:07:39
  bread, it defies our understanding of the natural
• 1:07:43
  order because it's a supernatural and it's divine
• 1:07:47
  revelation again. And this is where we're given
• 1:07:49
  the grace to see in the supernatural realm that this is
• 1:07:53
  Jesus in the bread, and that this is God in the man of Jesus.
• 1:07:59
  And it's really is about love because he loves us so much that
• 1:08:04
  he wants to commune with us every single day that he comes
• 1:08:08
  to us in that form. And one day I was just talking
• 1:08:13
  to God and I said to him just recently, like, Lord, if you
• 1:08:17
  would just give us like whatever we need for like 10 years.
• 1:08:20
  Like, OK, and here's the plan and here's what you need.
• 1:08:23
  And you know, like it's like this everyday struggle.
• 1:08:26
  And I clearly heard him say to me, but I want to be with you
• 1:08:30
  every day. I want to walk with you in
• 1:08:33
  everything, every single day. And it just, I mean, his job.
• 1:08:40
  Yeah. I want to give you just enough
• 1:08:43
  for the day because then you and I can do this together.
• 1:08:46
  Let's do it together. That's that's the God that is
• 1:08:50
  God. That is, that is Jesus, that is
• 1:08:52
  our. God, it's so beautiful.
• 1:08:55
  It's such A and, and I was also thinking as you were speaking
• 1:08:59
  about going to the Protestant Church 1st and you know, there
• 1:09:03
  was some beauty there. They were talking about God, but
• 1:09:06
  Jesus, you had this grace to be able to sense Jesus.
• 1:09:10
  He wasn't there. So you went, you know, to the
• 1:09:11
  Catholic Church and oh, he's here.
• 1:09:13
  I remember going to a Catholic Church to pray.
• 1:09:16
  This was, I think right after I became Catholic and I was going
• 1:09:19
  to in front of the bus of sacrament because I want to be
• 1:09:21
  with him in this, in the Eucharist to just say hello and
• 1:09:24
  to pray. And I, I went there and I sense
• 1:09:27
  he's not here and he wasn't there.
• 1:09:30
  The Tabernacle was empty. I don't always have the grace of
• 1:09:32
  that sense, but in this time I did.
• 1:09:34
  And I was like, Oh Lord, I, I wish you were here.
• 1:09:37
  I like, you know, I was disappointed.
• 1:09:39
  And there were these workmen going in and out because they
• 1:09:41
  were, I noticed actually there's a little bit of construction.
• 1:09:44
  So they had removed the Blessed Sacrament for I think they were
• 1:09:47
  actually adjusting behind the altar or something.
• 1:09:50
  And I felt like the Lord said, I actually am here and I'm
• 1:09:53
  thinking, how are you here, Lord?
• 1:09:54
  And then I realized I'm hearing the workmen that because Jesus
• 1:09:59
  is obviously in the Eucharist, of course, but he, the image of
• 1:10:01
  God is in US. And Jesus, he says like,
• 1:10:04
  whatever you do to the least of these, And he says that how we
• 1:10:07
  love other people is how we love him.
• 1:10:09
  And I realize that he's telling me, you know, love me in the
• 1:10:13
  Eucharist, of course, receive me in the Eucharist as your food.
• 1:10:17
  But when you see another person, Lila, remember that's me too.
• 1:10:21
  Yes. And I just was.
• 1:10:23
  I was humbled because I thought, how often every day do I go
• 1:10:28
  about my day and I don't see our Lord.
• 1:10:30
  I don't, I'm not, I'm not. I don't ask for the eyes to see
• 1:10:33
  Him. I think the greatest attack that
• 1:10:37
  Satan has done on us is the distraction.
• 1:10:41
  And we are so distracted with all these things that we have to
• 1:10:45
  get done that we miss the moment.
• 1:10:48
  That eye to eye contact with a stranger doesn't have to be that
• 1:10:52
  you say anything, but you see them.
• 1:10:54
  Most people walk around feeling unseen.
• 1:10:57
  Nobody sees me, but if you can just look at somebody, you can
• 1:11:01
  transmit the love of Lord right there.
• 1:11:06
  But Satan has us so distracted because you have all these
• 1:11:09
  important things we have to get done that we miss the simplicity
• 1:11:15
  of bringing God to somebody. But by just a look of love that
• 1:11:19
  I see you. So true.
• 1:11:23
  When you were now becoming Catholic, practicing your
• 1:11:27
  Catholic faith, were there ripple effects on family or
• 1:11:30
  friends that anyone else become Catholic?
• 1:11:31
  What happened with your children?
• 1:11:33
  Yeah, well, it's amazing. So when I have my conversion, I
• 1:11:36
  thought I had arrived. OK, this is all about me.
• 1:11:39
  God saved me, and that's all I thought about.
• 1:11:42
  Well, my kids came into the Catholic Church and I was like,
• 1:11:46
  OK, that's good. They chose it.
• 1:11:48
  They chose it. Wow.
• 1:11:49
  So that's great. Are they excited?
• 1:11:51
  Yeah. My son actually was just on
• 1:11:54
  fire. He was a teenager.
• 1:11:55
  He actually went through RCIA with me.
• 1:11:57
  He was 16. And I said, you know, I had a
• 1:11:59
  talk with the kids. I said, this is happening to me.
• 1:12:02
  I'm not saying you have to do this.
• 1:12:04
  It's up to you. And my son a couple days later
• 1:12:07
  said, Mom, I feel I need to. I want to.
• 1:12:09
  Wow. And so, yeah, he, he was very
• 1:12:12
  much zealous for the faith. And then my daughter got
• 1:12:17
  baptized in a non denominational first couple years later.
• 1:12:20
  And then she came into the Catholic Church couple years
• 1:12:23
  after that. So and my sister two years after
• 1:12:27
  me living in Canada. So it's not like we're living in
• 1:12:31
  the same place. But all I could talk about was
• 1:12:32
  Jesus was doing for me. Two years later, she had her own
• 1:12:36
  experiences. She came into the Catholic
• 1:12:37
  Church. My niece got baptized Catholic
• 1:12:42
  and my parents through these years, my mom said something to
• 1:12:46
  me. She was the one who was most
• 1:12:47
  opposed. She said something to me that
• 1:12:50
  was just really heartwarming, she said, and something a
• 1:12:53
  daughter was happy to hear. But she said I don't understand
• 1:12:57
  this whole Jesus thing because I don't think he's the son of God
• 1:13:00
  and all. But she said I've been watching
• 1:13:02
  you. And she said I don't I cannot
• 1:13:05
  but say that it is God who is working in you.
• 1:13:09
  I don't understand it, but it has to be God.
• 1:13:14
  And so she's she became peaceful about it because she would see,
• 1:13:20
  you know, and once they came to my talk and they heard me speak
• 1:13:24
  and and that's when she said that that this is God.
• 1:13:28
  And then my dad before he, he was sick for a few years and he
• 1:13:33
  started seeing the face of Jesus on his prayer mat.
• 1:13:38
  Every time he would open his prayer mat to pray, the face of
• 1:13:40
  Jesus would appear and. Getting chills again.
• 1:13:45
  And in, in the, in the Muslim faith and you know, the second
• 1:13:51
  from my dad before he passed away, you know, they do like a
• 1:13:54
  life confession. So it's not confession as we do
• 1:13:57
  as Catholics, where you tell the priest about, but it's more like
• 1:14:01
  saying God, I'm sorry for all my sins.
• 1:14:02
  It's like a end of life thing. So he had gone for that and he
• 1:14:08
  was telling my sister, he said, and he could barely talk.
• 1:14:12
  He was all choked up. And when he would say Jesus's
• 1:14:14
  face is on the prayer mat, he would just get choked and cry.
• 1:14:18
  So he said to my sister, when he went for the confession, he
• 1:14:21
  said, you know, I did this. And he said, but it wasn't the
• 1:14:25
  imam who was in front of me. He said, you know who was there
• 1:14:30
  and who forgave my sins? He said Jesus was there and
• 1:14:34
  Jesus forgave me my sin. Now my dad knows 0 about
• 1:14:39
  confession. He doesn't like, hasn't read the
• 1:14:42
  Bible, he doesn't know any of that.
• 1:14:45
  But he was witnessing to the Catholic faith about confession
• 1:14:50
  and it is the Lord who forgives us.
• 1:14:53
  And my dad saw that and before he passed away, he was sick and
• 1:14:57
  he asked for a picture of Jesus from me.
• 1:15:00
  And because when he he had a feeding tube, he couldn't talk.
• 1:15:03
  And I'd shown him a picture on my phone and when he was able to
• 1:15:07
  talk, he told my sister to call me and ask for that picture.
• 1:15:11
  So I sent him a nice big size picture of Jesus.
• 1:15:14
  It was on his bedside till he passed away.
• 1:15:18
  So he wasn't baptized, but there is a baptism of desire and the
• 1:15:23
  love that he had for Jesus. Wow.
• 1:15:27
  So there were some amazing things.
• 1:15:29
  You know, we think we think so small and God thinks so big.
• 1:15:33
  His plan is so much bigger than what you could ever imagine.
• 1:15:38
  I thought he was just saving me. But he's been working and, you
• 1:15:44
  know, taking my life on a trajectory.
• 1:15:46
  Like I said in the beginning, I can't believe I'm sitting here.
• 1:15:49
  I was the most shy person you would ever meet.
• 1:15:52
  I wouldn't talk to anybody. And he, he asked me to talk
• 1:15:58
  about him, and I didn't want to. And he said, but will you not
• 1:16:03
  tell them what I have done for you?
• 1:16:07
  And I thought, how can I not? How can I not tell them, Lord,
• 1:16:11
  that you are alive, that you are Christ, the Son of the living
• 1:16:16
  God that still walks this earth, loves each and every human
• 1:16:21
  being. You died for every Muslim on
• 1:16:24
  this earth and every other human being whether they know it or
• 1:16:27
  not. And you won't love them and you
• 1:16:30
  are waiting for them. And there's no one who is so
• 1:16:33
  past God's grace. Like, you know, you interview so
• 1:16:36
  many people, you know, ex Satanist, you know Zachary King,
• 1:16:41
  his story is amazing. There's an African witch doctor
• 1:16:44
  I heard about his story. Jesus, it's never too late.
• 1:16:48
  It's I don't, no matter where you've been.
• 1:16:51
  Mary Magdalene didn't matter, but she was the first one to see
• 1:16:55
  Jesus when he resurrected. That's our God of love.
• 1:17:01
  Very different than the God I knew.
• 1:17:05
  Are there other ways? And praise the Lord, I mean,
• 1:17:08
  that just brings such joy even to hear you speak to the Lord's
• 1:17:12
  mercy and love for all of us. And it's the person that says
• 1:17:17
  he, I'm so broke and he can't save me, right.
• 1:17:20
  That's the that's the one thing the Lord, you know, breaks the
• 1:17:23
  Lord the most. He said of course I.
• 1:17:25
  Can. And that's the lie.
• 1:17:26
  That's the lie. From the hell yes it.
• 1:17:28
  Is our favorite thing to do. It's a lie like that.
• 1:17:31
  You're going to you're you're beyond you're beyond saving.
• 1:17:35
  When you were in this journey of you, you were with the Lord now
• 1:17:39
  and you were receiving him now through the sacraments and
• 1:17:43
  you're deepening in your experience of the truth of who
• 1:17:46
  God is and who Jesus is in a in your soul.
• 1:17:49
  Were there other parts of you when you were raised Muslim,
• 1:17:54
  you'd been in this marriage that had been painfully emotionally
• 1:17:58
  and spiritually abusive. You had been in this community
• 1:18:02
  that was very different. Were there other parts of you
• 1:18:04
  that experienced healing? Other things that surprised you?
• 1:18:09
  Well, there's one thing that really comes to mind.
• 1:18:13
  So after I had my conversion, I'm going to Mass.
• 1:18:16
  I'm doing all that. And I heard that there was going
• 1:18:19
  to be a generational healing Mass.
• 1:18:21
  Now I'm a new Catholic. I don't know what that even
• 1:18:23
  means, but I went. But I felt called, compelled to
• 1:18:27
  go. So I went and it was a weekend
• 1:18:29
  retreat. And it was, you know, and the
• 1:18:34
  person who was leading the retreat at at the end of the
• 1:18:37
  day, she prayed for everybody and you'd go up and she would
• 1:18:41
  pray and just like a touch, nothing longer elaborate.
• 1:18:45
  And she did when she did that to me, I've, I just felt something
• 1:18:50
  just touch my core and I just started to cry.
• 1:18:55
  I didn't know why I was crying. I came and sat down and just
• 1:18:59
  crying like the deepest sobs but not knowing why and I couldn't
• 1:19:05
  stop. And I've that time I physically
• 1:19:08
  felt that God's head hand went into the top of my head, dug
• 1:19:14
  deep. I felt it go into my brain and
• 1:19:18
  this finger of God pulled out something that had been buried
• 1:19:23
  so deep. A memory.
• 1:19:25
  Yes, and pulled it out, but it was like a physical thing that
• 1:19:29
  was happening, pulling it out of my brain.
• 1:19:32
  And the voice said look at this. And with the voice, I knew
• 1:19:38
  exactly what I had had two abortions when I had reconciled
• 1:19:43
  with my husband and God was saying to look at it.
• 1:19:50
  I had buried it so deep because when I had the abortions, I felt
• 1:19:56
  like I had no choice but to have the abortions.
• 1:19:58
  I had left my husband come to America.
• 1:20:02
  And I had reconciled with him, but now I was pregnant, which
• 1:20:06
  meant I would have to stay with him, which meant and I get sick
• 1:20:11
  when I'm pregnant and I knew I couldn't work, which means I
• 1:20:14
  would become a prisoner all over again of his.
• 1:20:18
  So in my head I felt my only choice.
• 1:20:21
  So it's not like I even thought it through.
• 1:20:24
  It was like, that's it. I shut my emotions down and I
• 1:20:27
  went to the doctor and I said I need to get an abortion.
• 1:20:30
  I think I was like 4 weeks pregnant and but it was like a
• 1:20:35
  mechanical decision. And I remember going to the
• 1:20:38
  abortion clinic like a zombie, like a robot, no emotions
• 1:20:43
  because you just have to do this.
• 1:20:47
  And so when God brought that up, and it happened twice within
• 1:20:51
  that time, I was with my husband and I felt like I had no choice
• 1:20:57
  at that time. But God pulled it out and I just
• 1:21:03
  broke down. And for like a week, all I could
• 1:21:06
  do was cry. And I just felt my heart was
• 1:21:09
  breaking, but I didn't know what to do at that.
• 1:21:12
  It was done. There was nothing I could do.
• 1:21:15
  And and you felt it was breaking because what what what was going
• 1:21:18
  through your heart the. Sorrow, the sorrow that I had
• 1:21:23
  never really allowed myself to feel When I got baptized and I
• 1:21:29
  went to my first confession after that, I did confess it
• 1:21:33
  because not like I didn't remember it and I knew it was
• 1:21:36
  wrong. I confessed it and the priest
• 1:21:39
  said to me, well, everything before your baptism, you don't
• 1:21:42
  have to confess. But I said, but Father, I still
• 1:21:45
  want to and I did. And he, you know, suggested some
• 1:21:50
  Rachel's Vineyard and other. And I said, no, I think I'm OK.
• 1:21:54
  And I didn't do anything. But now God pulled it out and I
• 1:21:59
  couldn't stop crying and I didn't know what God wanted me
• 1:22:04
  to do with it. I can't go back in time.
• 1:22:06
  What do you want want from me? And so I I had a spiritual
• 1:22:10
  director who is a priest, and I went to him and I said.
• 1:22:12
  Father, I don't know what to do, but all I can do is cry I.
• 1:22:16
  And he said, let us celebrate, let's have a Mass for the two
• 1:22:20
  children. He said think about it, pray
• 1:22:23
  about it and give me the two names and we will do a Mass.
• 1:22:27
  And I said, I don't even know if it was a boy or a girl.
• 1:22:30
  And he said pray about it and God will tell you.
• 1:22:33
  And I thought, OK, I don't know how that's going to work, but
• 1:22:35
  OK, So I did pray about it. And he gave me the two names.
• 1:22:40
  It was a boy and a girl and I, so we had mass said and it was
• 1:22:50
  beautiful. It was private, just like, you
• 1:22:52
  know, two people and be named the children and it was like a
• 1:22:57
  goodbye. It was an acknowledgement of
• 1:23:01
  their existence by naming them and then surrendering them to
• 1:23:05
  God. And Father said to me after he
• 1:23:10
  said some people after the Mass will you know you in your prayer
• 1:23:14
  time you make see your children. So I'm just letting you know if
• 1:23:17
  it happens, you know God sometimes does that.
• 1:23:20
  And about a week after this, and I had a lot of peace after Mass
• 1:23:27
  and I was praying and I had an open vision and I saw, I saw
• 1:23:35
  Jesus, I saw his back. He was walking and he had my son
• 1:23:38
  in his arms and he was holding my daughter's hand.
• 1:23:42
  And my daughter looked back and waved to me and she looked
• 1:23:46
  ecstatic and happy. But the look was not just joy,
• 1:23:50
  the love for me that I saw on her face.
• 1:23:53
  And my son was in Jesus's arms and they were, he was taking the
• 1:23:57
  two of them and walking away. And from that day on, I have, I
• 1:24:05
  have peace. I have acknowledged that I had
• 1:24:08
  four kids and the two are in heaven and I know they're with
• 1:24:14
  Jesus and I saw them. And so God started my healing
• 1:24:22
  from the deepest wound that was there.
• 1:24:25
  And I believe also because it would be a block like that had
• 1:24:29
  to be addressed. There were two lives that were
• 1:24:34
  taken by me that I had to make right and God wanted me to make
• 1:24:41
  right. You know, it's like a father
• 1:24:44
  when he knows the Son did something wrong.
• 1:24:46
  OK, let's fix this. It's not like, how dare you?
• 1:24:50
  How could you? It wasn't that.
• 1:24:52
  It's like, let's fix this. And so we did, and now he could
• 1:24:59
  start the healing. But that was the deepest, the
• 1:25:02
  place he began with and he started to heal me inside out.
• 1:25:08
  And it was rough, the hope after that.
• 1:25:12
  How do you mean? How was it rough?
• 1:25:15
  When Jesus, when I received Jesus, I thought life was going
• 1:25:19
  to be now easy. I'd gone through the hard part.
• 1:25:22
  I had done this and all, and now it was all going to be OK.
• 1:25:25
  Even after this experience, I thought, OK, everything's now
• 1:25:28
  going to be OK. You know, go through life
• 1:25:31
  normal. But it actually went in a
• 1:25:38
  there's a quote from CS Lewis that I feel sums it up that God,
• 1:25:43
  that we are the living house that God is coming to build.
• 1:25:47
  There's, I don't have the quote exactly, but the concept is that
• 1:25:51
  God is building a house. So when he got me, I thought,
• 1:25:54
  OK, he's going to make a nice cottage.
• 1:25:57
  You know, we'll just kind of fluff it up, do it, and we'll
• 1:26:00
  paint the walls and that'll be it.
• 1:26:02
  And but he started knocking out walls.
• 1:26:05
  He pulled people out of my life. He revealed betrayals and
• 1:26:09
  deceptions and things that were from the closest people in my
• 1:26:13
  life that I had no idea we're actually living as my enemies.
• 1:26:18
  And he went really deep and, and he started not just painting the
• 1:26:24
  walls, but he started knocking the walls out and he started to
• 1:26:28
  pull the plumbing out. And I and the whole my life was
• 1:26:31
  like a construction zone and there was so much dust.
• 1:26:34
  I couldn't even see anything. I'm like, what are you doing?
• 1:26:38
  I thought you were going to like, I was safe in this home.
• 1:26:42
  But now it's like everything's falling.
• 1:26:44
  Apart. And but he was removing the the
• 1:26:48
  bad foundations and especially people very close to me that he
• 1:26:54
  removed. Like Muslim friends?
• 1:26:56
  Muslim friends and other people too.
• 1:26:59
  And these are people who are hostile to your faith.
• 1:27:02
  Yes, some, but some were wolf in sheep's clothing that weren't so
• 1:27:07
  openly. But Jesus did shine a light
• 1:27:10
  because where Christ is, his light comes and what's hidden
• 1:27:14
  comes to light. And even if I was suffering, and
• 1:27:18
  that's the thing, as you know, I suffered as a Muslim and I've
• 1:27:21
  suffered as a Christian. And there's a big difference
• 1:27:24
  when you suffer as a Muslim, you're alone when you suffer as
• 1:27:28
  a Christian. And I was holding on to Jesus
• 1:27:31
  and I was upset with him too, why he was letting it happen.
• 1:27:35
  But he suffered with me. I felt his presence in my
• 1:27:39
  suffering as a Muslim. I felt completely abandoned and
• 1:27:42
  alone. So this the, the suffering when
• 1:27:48
  he was tearing all these things out, I couldn't understand.
• 1:27:51
  But CS Lewis's quote says it so perfectly that you think he's
• 1:27:55
  going to make a cottage, but he's knocking all these walls
• 1:27:58
  and things and all, but what he's actually doing is building
• 1:28:01
  you a worthy, making you a worthy dwelling place for
• 1:28:04
  himself. He's got he's actually making a
• 1:28:08
  castle worthy of him to come and dwell in.
• 1:28:11
  So he was removing everything that was not good.
• 1:28:16
  And today I can tell you that I am so grateful for the
• 1:28:20
  construction he's done and the healing.
• 1:28:23
  And he went deep, deep healing to restore my identity.
• 1:28:29
  That I have worth and I have value and I'm OK as I am and I
• 1:28:34
  have to love others as they are. What has been, in your view, the
• 1:28:39
  biggest change or what are the differences between the Islamic
• 1:28:45
  view of women and the Christian view of women?
• 1:28:50
  Because Saint Paul says that in Christ there is no man or woman,
• 1:28:53
  slave or free. We are all children of God.
• 1:28:58
  And there is this radical teaching that elevates not just
• 1:29:02
  women, but children, all of us and, and, and men do.
• 1:29:05
  It elevates men to be God's children and to be made in his
• 1:29:12
  image, very different than any other world religion, major
• 1:29:17
  world religion today. This radical identification of
• 1:29:22
  God as as children and brothers and sisters of Christ too.
• 1:29:26
  I mean, it's the other element we have friends of Jesus.
• 1:29:30
  Right. Yeah.
• 1:29:31
  In Islam, women, there is such a distinction between men and
• 1:29:37
  women. So even in the Quran it says,
• 1:29:40
  you know, for a witness, you know, you have one man and you
• 1:29:45
  need two women to equal the one man because a woman's testimony
• 1:29:49
  is not to be depended on. Men are allowed to beat women if
• 1:29:54
  they are not obedient so. That's in the Quran.
• 1:29:58
  Yes, you can beat women. Yes, if they're not obedient.
• 1:30:01
  It specifically says that in the Quran.
• 1:30:03
  It does and it says and gently beat them.
• 1:30:06
  But the fact is you can beat them.
• 1:30:09
  So they're the respect for women is just not there and they are
• 1:30:14
  more women are more objectified. And so.
• 1:30:21
  Even with it, it's interesting. Just a quick pause on that with
• 1:30:24
  Burqa's hijab, all of the apparel and also the the
• 1:30:28
  separateness with women's quarters here, men's here, women
• 1:30:31
  in this part of the mosque, men here.
• 1:30:33
  So I think some people who really advocate for the Islamic
• 1:30:37
  faith would say, well, it's there's so much respect for
• 1:30:40
  women in Islam, they would say the opposite from they actually
• 1:30:43
  respect women more than in the West, where women dressed
• 1:30:45
  immodestly and everyone's the same.
• 1:30:49
  What would you say to that? I think the yes, I think in
• 1:30:53
  Islam women dress more modestly or they are required to.
• 1:30:57
  But I think you can take something that is good and take
• 1:31:00
  it to an extreme where it takes away your even like you're kind
• 1:31:04
  of ashamed of your femininity or you have to hide it because it's
• 1:31:08
  actually a problem. So you better cover it up
• 1:31:11
  instead of to honor it and respect it.
• 1:31:15
  So segregating, I mean, I, I, my friends, when we would get
• 1:31:20
  together or if I ever went to the mosque, you know, the women
• 1:31:24
  had a separate area and the men had separate and.
• 1:31:27
  That's OK, but the way the men would look at the women did not
• 1:31:31
  show a lot of respect. So just because on the surface
• 1:31:34
  you segregate and you cover head to toe doesn't tell you the
• 1:31:38
  condition of someone's heart and the way that they look at
• 1:31:42
  somebody, you know, with their eyes.
• 1:31:45
  And I lived in Pakistan and I remember going to rent when they
• 1:31:52
  still had DVDs, you could go rent them.
• 1:31:54
  And I remember sitting in the car, my husband went in to get a
• 1:31:58
  DVD and these men were standing outside.
• 1:32:02
  And they were looking at me and I was wearing a charter and the
• 1:32:05
  whole thing like a, a wrap, you know, not a burqa.
• 1:32:09
  But I had my head covered everything.
• 1:32:11
  And the way they were looking at me, I'd have never.
• 1:32:14
  Felt so scared that if they got a hold of me that they would
• 1:32:19
  just RIP you to shreds. It was the way it didn't matter
• 1:32:23
  if my head was covered. It was the lust that was in
• 1:32:26
  their eyes and their. Heart.
• 1:32:28
  So I think the the most important thing is to really
• 1:32:34
  your heart and your mind. You know, if there's a spirit of
• 1:32:38
  lust, it doesn't matter what you're covering or not.
• 1:32:41
  And I have found that that to be a big.
• 1:32:43
  Problem in the Islamic culture then not.
• 1:32:48
  Now of course, on the other side, you have women here that
• 1:32:51
  dress very immodestly, but that's disrespectful to their
• 1:32:53
  own femininity. What would you say is the
• 1:32:56
  biggest difference between the Islamic view of God and the view
• 1:33:00
  of the Christian, the true God? The Islamic view of God is that
• 1:33:04
  he's a master. The Christian view is that he's
• 1:33:08
  a father. The Islamic view is that God is
• 1:33:11
  a judge and he is impersonal. In Islam they talk about the
• 1:33:17
  ummah, which is the Muslim community.
• 1:33:20
  You are one of the group in the community, so you are one of the
• 1:33:26
  Muslims. You have no identity as an
• 1:33:29
  individual. That I find that to be a huge
• 1:33:33
  difference is in Islam you are one of many.
• 1:33:37
  There's no individual identity. But in the Christian faith, you
• 1:33:43
  have a personal identity. God is personal.
• 1:33:48
  He came to me in a very personal way.
• 1:33:50
  He speaks to me in a way that I understand, but he'll speak to
• 1:33:54
  you in a way you understand. He meets you where you are
• 1:33:58
  because he sees you individually.
• 1:34:00
  You are not just one in a group of Christians that here's a herd
• 1:34:05
  of Christians, but as a Muslim, it feels that way.
• 1:34:09
  There's no personal acknowledgement from God.
• 1:34:12
  And also in Islam there's no relationship with God, but as a
• 1:34:19
  Christian we have a relationship.
• 1:34:20
  We actually should strive for the relationship.
• 1:34:23
  In Islam that is condemned. You don't seek relationship with
• 1:34:27
  Allah because that's a sin. He is the master.
• 1:34:30
  You just submit. So you're a slave in Islam and
• 1:34:35
  you're a child of God in Christianity.
• 1:34:38
  And as a child, like, you know, you have children.
• 1:34:40
  I have children. We see our children
• 1:34:42
  individually. They're not just a herd of
• 1:34:44
  children, but you see each one's personalities and the beauty in
• 1:34:50
  each one. That's the God of of Abraham,
• 1:34:54
  Isaac, and Jacob. What would be your message to
• 1:34:57
  any Muslims who may encounter you or your story if you had
• 1:35:03
  just a few things to say to them?
• 1:35:05
  They know this is a woman that would it be apostasy?
• 1:35:09
  You know, you left the Islamic faith.
• 1:35:12
  What would be what you would? What would you say to them?
• 1:35:16
  I would say that there is more. There is more for you if you can
• 1:35:23
  put down the box and seek truth, the truth of God, the divine
• 1:35:29
  truth. Not because somebody told you,
• 1:35:32
  but ask God himself who He is. I am so amazed and proud of
• 1:35:39
  Muslims for their zeal for their discipline.
• 1:35:43
  You know, I commend them for the fasting, the discipline of
• 1:35:47
  prayer, the zeal for the faith. The the women who, you know,
• 1:35:51
  choose to cover themselves in the name of religion and do it
• 1:35:56
  shows that they have a love for they have a respect for God and
• 1:36:00
  they're willing to sacrifice and suffer for that.
• 1:36:05
  But there is a God of love also. If you would take that zeal and
• 1:36:10
  desire of God, the love of God that you have and seek him with
• 1:36:16
  that discipline. I believe the reason God showed
• 1:36:21
  himself to me the way he did is I had a desire, but I think it
• 1:36:25
  was I just kept showing up. You know, people ask me that.
• 1:36:29
  Why do you think this happened to you?
• 1:36:30
  I think because I kept showing up.
• 1:36:33
  And if you seek, you will find. So to my Muslim brothers and
• 1:36:38
  sisters, I would say there is more for you.
• 1:36:41
  You have the discipline. If you add desire to it to know
• 1:36:45
  the divine truth, you will find it.
• 1:36:49
  There is a great love waiting for you that you have not even
• 1:36:53
  touched yet. And if you do, it'll transform
• 1:36:56
  your life. And when you look at the cross,
• 1:37:01
  I want you to see the the place where love died for you.
• 1:37:06
  That is love waiting for you. That is not a place of
• 1:37:13
  rejection, but a place of contemplation.
• 1:37:16
  Seek him, Ask him if you if you have an issue with Jesus, ask
• 1:37:21
  Mariam who is your son. You know Mariam from the Quran.
• 1:37:26
  Ask her who is Jesus? Tell me not one day, but because
• 1:37:31
  you are blessed with discipline. Ask her every single day.
• 1:37:34
  Miriam, who is your son? Tell me you don't have to
• 1:37:37
  believe me. Ask yourself.
• 1:37:39
  And I do believe that God will speak to you because I know
• 1:37:43
  there's so much more. Beautiful.
• 1:37:46
  There are many Protestants who are concerned that Mary can
• 1:37:52
  actually distract us from Jesus and that prayers for the
• 1:37:56
  intercession of Mary, two other Saints can be this distraction
• 1:38:00
  from the relationship with Jesus.
• 1:38:02
  Jesus is the only way to the Father.
• 1:38:04
  Jesus is God and he is our personal Lord and Savior.
• 1:38:07
  So and, and I have some sympathy for that concern because I I,
• 1:38:12
  you know, I was Protestant once I understand the fear around
• 1:38:15
  this. What would you say to that?
• 1:38:18
  Well, I would say from my personal experience is what I
• 1:38:22
  can speak is I it was actually Mary because of being a Muslim
• 1:38:28
  that was the first draw. But that's not where it ended.
• 1:38:31
  It didn't end with Mary. It didn't become that Mary
• 1:38:35
  became my everything. She led me to Jesus.
• 1:38:38
  When I went and stood in front of her statue, I was turned to
• 1:38:42
  Jesus. So Mary is not she is the mother
• 1:38:46
  of Jesus, who we love so much. And we have Mother's Day and we
• 1:38:51
  honor our mother, but we're never scared that, OK, if I
• 1:38:54
  honor my mother, then I don't love my father.
• 1:38:58
  You know, loving your mother there's nothing wrong with.
• 1:39:01
  That so if this is Jesus's mother, he must love her too.
• 1:39:05
  So if we honor her as his mother and ask for her to talk to her
• 1:39:11
  son, we're not worshipping her. We're asking for her help.
• 1:39:15
  And I don't know if, you know, if there is somebody you need
• 1:39:18
  something from and you know their mother.
• 1:39:22
  You know, if you go talk to the mom, well, the mom will have the
• 1:39:25
  son's ear and she will, you know, put in a.
• 1:39:28
  Word. That's really what this is, is
• 1:39:31
  we're just loving his mother because he we know he loves her
• 1:39:35
  and we're just saying, can you please whisper to your son?
• 1:39:38
  Can you put in a word for me? But at the end, Christ is Lord.
• 1:39:44
  And there's no two ways about it.
• 1:39:46
  I have two more questions to ask.
• 1:39:48
  You've expressed to me before this interview about security
• 1:39:52
  concerns. I've had my own version of this
• 1:39:54
  for pro-life activism and other work that I do with live action.
• 1:39:58
  But you're a former Muslim. Do you have security concerns
• 1:40:04
  and how has that impacted your ministry and why do you have
• 1:40:07
  those concerns? Well, I think we OK, so we
• 1:40:12
  talked about Islam with the radical part of it.
• 1:40:17
  So when they are following the Quran to the T, then there's the
• 1:40:21
  radicalism, which is, you know, kill the unbelievers, the
• 1:40:24
  infidels, the apostates who leave the faith, which would
• 1:40:28
  technically be me too, because I left the faith.
• 1:40:32
  And but I came into a faith that is radically, if I follow
• 1:40:37
  Christianity radically, I become more and more love.
• 1:40:41
  So what has come? The security fear.
• 1:40:45
  I have not had death threats. But of course there is a
• 1:40:49
  possibility because there are the, there is the radical
• 1:40:52
  element of Islam. But the love in my heart is so
• 1:40:57
  much because of being a radical Christian that I think that love
• 1:41:01
  has the power to transform hate. So I'm choosing to.
• 1:41:06
  Love, and I know God loves Muslims.
• 1:41:09
  And like I said, they have if if Muslims come to embrace Christ,
• 1:41:14
  I think the world will be transformed because they're
• 1:41:16
  already so disciplined. They could put us to shame with
• 1:41:19
  their discipline in following Christ.
• 1:41:22
  I love that their zeal. Yeah, their zeal is incredible.
• 1:41:25
  So I'd, you know, of course there is, I'm prudent about it,
• 1:41:29
  but my ministry really has been to talk about what is right with
• 1:41:35
  Christ and his message and not really focus on what's wrong
• 1:41:40
  with Islam. I'm called to talk about what's
• 1:41:43
  right with Christ and invite people, invite Muslims to
• 1:41:47
  consider and ask the question. Beautiful.
• 1:41:52
  Such an incredible testimony. Nikki, what is next for you?
• 1:41:57
  Well, continuing to spread the message, continuing to tell
• 1:42:01
  people that Jesus is alive and who knows what He has planned
• 1:42:05
  because I just take it a step at a time.
• 1:42:07
  I never thought I would be out speaking about Him, but His love
• 1:42:11
  just burns in my heart. So I don't know where He'll take
• 1:42:14
  me, but wherever He calls, I will go.
• 1:42:17
  I love that. Nikki, where can people find
• 1:42:19
  your book and your work? So my website
• 1:42:22
  isnikkikingsley.com and IKKIKINGSLEY nikkikingsley.com
• 1:42:28
  and I did write a book about my conversion testimony, some
• 1:42:32
  prayers I've written. So that is there.
• 1:42:35
  And other than that, I like to share on whether it's a podcast
• 1:42:40
  or conferences or speaking engagements, and that's what I
• 1:42:42
  do. Amazing the type.
• 1:42:44
  What's the title of your book? Curse for truth from Muhammad to
• 1:42:48
  Jesus. Amazing Nikki, thank you.
• 1:42:50
  This has been such a joy and so encouraging for my faith too.
• 1:42:53
  And I'm sure for the people listening, thank you so much.
• 1:42:56
  Thank you for having me, it's been a pleasure.
• 1:42:59
  Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Lila Roche
• 1:43:01
  Show. Hit the subscribe button to make
• 1:43:02
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