Latest / I Used To Be Crap At Sales / Leading a Global SDR Team at Cognism | EP20 | Catherine Olivier, Cognism

Transcript

Leading a Global SDR Team at Cognism | EP20 | Catherine Olivier, Cognism · I Used To Be Crap At Sales

0:00
catherine olivier: I
0:00
think there's still way
0:01
too many SDR leaders out
0:02
there who are, like, very
0:04
proud. Like, oh my God,
0:05
my team sent 20,000
0:07
emails this week. It was
0:08
a great week. There you
0:09
go. Really, was it?
0:10
Though? What did you book
0:11
from that?
0:12
Mark Ackers: Former
0:12
senior director of Global
0:14
sales development at EDB,
0:16
VP of global sales
0:17
development at click, VP
0:18
global sales development
0:20
for talent, the
0:21
ambassador for SDR
0:22
leaders, EMEA, and now
0:24
they're the current VP of
0:25
global sales development
0:27
at cognism. Today's guest
0:28
is Catherine Olivier. A
0:30
Unknown: lot of people
0:31
don't realise how lonely
0:33
leadership can be. You
0:34
need to keep that
0:35
distance, and you need to
0:36
be able to step away and
0:38
not take it personally.
0:39
What are
0:39
Mark Ackers: they finding
0:40
hardest right now as
0:41
first time SDR managers,
0:43
you
0:43
catherine olivier: can't
0:44
manage every single
0:45
person the same way, even
0:46
if it's only seven
0:47
people, it's still very
0:48
necessary that you kind
0:49
of figure out what makes
0:50
your team tick on an
0:51
individual level.
0:53
Mark Ackers: How do you
0:53
go from being a friend to
0:54
a manager? If
0:55
catherine olivier: you're
0:55
being very close friends
0:56
with, like, one or two on
0:58
a team, you always have
0:59
the perception of
1:01
favouritism, I think
1:02
people don't realise how
1:03
tricky that is. When they
1:05
get into it, you can't
1:06
ease your way into it.
1:07
You have to set
1:08
expectations from day one
1:10
that they go, okay. Now
1:12
it's different. What's
1:13
Mark Ackers: one change
1:14
that you are seeing right
1:15
now that wasn't apparent
1:16
last year. It's
1:17
continuously
1:18
catherine olivier: changing.
1:19
So what worked last year,
1:21
last month might not
1:22
work. Now you think
1:23
you've cracked it, and
1:24
then everyone copies, and
1:25
then it stops working. If
1:26
you're an SDR who doesn't
1:28
manage to have well
1:29
researched and well
1:31
personalised messages,
1:33
you're doing something
1:34
wrong.
1:34
Mark Ackers: What do you
1:34
believe the ratio should
1:36
be of manager to rep?
1:37
Golden
1:38
catherine olivier: Rule,
1:38
never more than SDRs to
1:40
one manager. If you add
1:41
more, the cracks are
1:42
starting to show.
1:49
Mark Ackers: Hello and
1:49
welcome to another
1:50
episode of The I used to
1:51
be crap at sales podcast.
1:53
I'm your host, Mark
1:54
Akers, the co founder and
1:55
Head of Sales here at my
1:56
sales coach, we call the
1:58
podcast app because it's
1:59
true, and all of our
2:00
guests say the same, and
2:02
today I am joined by
2:04
someone with incredible
2:05
experience when it comes
2:06
to building leading, high
2:08
performing, winning sales
2:10
development teams.
2:11
Today's guest, if you
2:12
haven't guessed it
2:12
already, is Catherine
2:14
Olivier. Catherine, a big
2:16
welcome to the I used to
2:17
be crap at sales podcast.
2:18
How are you? Thanks very
2:19
much, Mark. I'm really
2:20
pleased to be here,
2:21
delighted to have you,
2:22
Catherine, obviously has
2:23
gone through your resume
2:25
there. I appreciate I
2:25
might have got that in
2:26
the slight wrong order.
2:27
That is an incredible
2:29
background, so well
2:30
experienced, as I say,
2:31
when it comes to building
2:32
leading, winning sales
2:34
development teams. But of
2:35
course, your journey
2:37
started somewhere. We
2:38
always kick up the
2:39
podcast off with a yes,
2:40
no question, Catherine,
2:41
did you used to be crap
2:43
at sales? Oh yes, when
2:44
you said yes, what part
2:46
of your career come
2:48
racing to the front of
2:49
your mind when you had
2:50
that light bulb moment
2:52
that perhaps you wasn't
2:53
as good as you may have
2:53
thought that you were, I
2:55
suppose I just
2:56
immediately go back to my
2:57
first days as an SDR,
2:59
right? And I can't age
3:01
myself too much, but that
3:02
is in the day of real
3:04
telephones, phone books
3:05
and excel sheets and
3:06
nothing else, and really
3:08
having no clue what to
3:09
do, how to approach it,
3:11
and just trying to shove
3:13
a solution down people's
3:14
throat no matter what,
3:15
was there a particular
3:16
moment when you just
3:17
thought something needs
3:18
to change, because what
3:19
I'm doing is not working,
3:21
yeah, for sure. I mean,
3:22
it's that point where you
3:24
don't hit quota right
3:26
where you go, Oh, my God.
3:27
So clearly I need to
3:28
change. The situation
3:29
that I was in was that it
3:30
was a group of all new
3:32
SDRs that all had never
3:34
done SDR role before. So
3:35
it's like the situation
3:37
where no one knows what
3:38
to do, and you don't have
3:39
a coach available to kind
3:41
of show you the row. So
3:42
it's just trial and error
3:43
and testing and testing
3:44
and testing and then
3:45
eventually figuring out
3:46
what works best. And how
3:48
did you figure out what
3:49
works best? Did someone
3:50
help you? Or was this all
3:52
on your own? No, no, I
3:53
did get some help
3:54
eventually from the AES
3:56
that were like, Oh my
3:57
gosh, our SDRs are
3:58
struggling. We better
3:59
give them a little bit of
4:00
help here, and then it's
4:01
starting to really break
4:03
down what we were trying
4:04
to do, which is like you
4:05
need to first build a
4:06
relationship, and you
4:07
first need to maybe start
4:09
with some information
4:11
gathering before you
4:13
assume that you know what
4:14
they want. And I think
4:15
that was that little
4:17
light bulb moment that
4:18
you go, Okay, it's not
4:19
just about trying to
4:21
push, push, push, but
4:22
it's more a game of give
4:23
and take, and there's no
4:24
wrong answer. I'm just
4:25
curious, what was the
4:26
reason it wasn't your
4:28
manager helping you? You
4:29
know, not thinking back,
4:29
it's a very long time
4:30
ago, I can genuinely not
4:31
remember whether I had a
4:33
manager or who it was,
4:35
which is kind of an idea
4:36
of how much I worked with
4:38
them and how much impact
4:40
they had, was it quite a
4:41
big team. Then that all
4:43
fell into one manager. I
4:44
think we had like 15
4:45
SDRs. I think at that
4:47
point we were just doing
4:48
the best we could. And
4:49
eventually more structure
4:51
came, and eventually
4:52
people started to join
4:53
who had more experience
4:55
and were taking everyone
4:56
under their wing. Do you
4:56
feel like you might have
4:57
lost people in the team
4:59
that could have gone on?
5:00
Be great, but because it
5:01
just took too long to get
5:02
the structure in place,
5:03
people quit the
5:04
profession. Possibly,
5:05
Unknown: possibly people
5:06
that thought they weren't
5:07
any good, but maybe with
5:08
the right type of
5:08
coaching, they could have
5:09
been better. Obviously,
5:10
you mentioned
5:11
Mark Ackers: 15 there,
5:12
jumping to where you are
5:13
today, and then we'll
5:14
come straight back. But
5:15
you obviously know what
5:16
it looks like,
5:17
structurally to have a
5:18
great sales development
5:19
team. What do you believe
5:20
the ratio should be of
5:22
manager to rep? Golden
5:23
Rule, never more than
5:25
seven. SDRs to one.
5:26
Manager. Tell me why it's
5:27
seven. It's not five,
5:28
it's not 10. That's a
5:29
hard one.
5:29
catherine olivier: Probably
5:30
just experience. I've
5:31
seen it. I've seen it
5:32
work kind of up to seven,
5:34
and if you add more, the
5:35
cracks are starting to
5:37
show where there's just
5:38
not enough time in a week
5:39
to to deal with anyone,
5:40
everyone sufficiently.
5:42
Five, great. I mean, I'd
5:43
have a one to one ratio
5:44
if you could have it, but
5:45
that's just not
5:46
realistic, right? So I
5:47
think currently I've got
5:50
a team of five with a
5:51
manager, six over the
5:52
manager and a few of
5:53
seven with a manager. You
5:54
do what you can and the
5:56
fewer the better. But
5:58
don't try to go over
5:59
seven. Is what my advice
6:01
always is,
6:01
Mark Ackers: sounds good.
6:02
So just recap for us.
6:03
Then, what is the
6:03
structure of your team
6:04
look like today? I have
6:07
catherine olivier: a team
6:07
in America with a
6:09
manager, a team in
6:10
Germany with a manager,
6:11
team in France with a
6:12
manager, and I've got
6:14
three teams in the UK,
6:16
like call them an SMB
6:17
team, a mid market team
6:19
and an enterprise team,
6:20
and each of those with a
6:21
manager,
6:22
Mark Ackers: you must be
6:22
incredibly busy. We'll
6:24
get to your time and
6:25
cognism And that's where
6:26
we're spend most of the
6:27
episode. But I suppose
6:28
before then, one of the
6:29
questions I like to ask
6:30
guests as well is, when
6:31
you look back at your
6:32
career, everyone's made a
6:33
big, big mistake in
6:35
sales, something where
6:36
they've maybe lost a
6:36
deal, so it's gone
6:38
completely wrong. It's a
6:39
funny lesson that they
6:40
can look back on. Now,
6:41
what would you say when
6:42
you reflect back is
6:43
probably one of the
6:44
biggest mistakes you've
6:45
made in sales?
6:46
catherine olivier: Oh,
6:46
I've made so many
6:48
over the over the years,
6:50
but I think, personally,
6:51
it's been thinking that I
6:53
can do everything. So
6:54
I've had teams where I
6:56
had not only the sales
6:56
development team, but I
6:58
also had an inside sales
6:59
team, and I had a
7:00
customer success team,
7:01
and everything rolled up
7:02
to me, and it's three
7:04
exceptionally different
7:06
motions, right? With
7:07
different skill sets,
7:08
different people,
7:09
different targets,
7:10
different everything. And
7:11
at that point in my
7:12
career, maybe it's
7:12
different now, but at
7:13
that point, there was no
7:15
way I could do all of
7:16
that successfully in one
7:17
go. So what happened,
7:19
like what broke to make
7:20
you realise you can't do
7:21
anything. Well, it's the
7:22
shifting in between
7:24
motions, right? Like the
7:25
SDR team. You have to
7:27
support them in, like the
7:28
lead conversions, the
7:29
outbounding and all of
7:31
that. But then you have
7:32
to also work with the
7:33
inside sales team that
7:35
has quotas of closing
7:36
things, and they need
7:37
support with like pricing
7:38
and demos and all of
7:40
those kind of things, and
7:41
then you have the
7:42
customers that are trying
7:44
to, like, either renew or
7:45
they're trying to expand,
7:46
and that's a whole other
7:48
host of discussions and
7:50
issues that come up with
7:51
with that. And that is
7:53
just a lot, if it all
7:55
flows into one person.
7:57
Oh, absolutely, like too
7:59
many plays to spin with
8:00
someone with such a
8:01
background in sales
8:03
development, I'm curious
8:05
what made you fall in
8:06
love with sales
8:07
development, of all the
8:08
different aspects of
8:09
sales, what was it that
8:10
made you fall in love
8:10
with this part of the
8:12
role? I think there's a
8:13
few things. One is that
8:16
it's continuously
8:17
changing. So what worked
8:19
last year, last month,
8:21
might not work. Now
8:23
there's new tools,
8:24
there's new tactics, new
8:25
strategies, every single
8:27
time, and you think
8:28
you've cracked it, and
8:28
then everyone copies. And
8:30
then it stops working.
8:30
You have to start all
8:31
over again. So I think
8:32
that staying on top of
8:34
things, staying relevant,
8:35
staying modern, I would
8:37
almost call it right, not
8:38
not being stuck in in the
8:40
past with what used to
8:41
work for you. I really do
8:42
like that, right? So, so
8:44
that's definitely a thing
8:45
that I that I enjoy about
8:47
it. Another thing that's
8:48
very, very important is
8:49
obviously the SDRs being
8:51
that career building
8:54
team, right with the
8:55
youngsters very often
8:56
that are in the beginning
8:58
of their sales career and
8:59
are trying to figure out
9:00
what, what is next for
9:01
them, and then kind of
9:03
guiding them towards
9:04
that. Like almost every
9:06
single SDR that's
9:07
interviewed usually goes,
9:10
oh, I want to be, be an
9:11
AE next. That's what I'm
9:12
going to be. And then,
9:13
fine, I don't say much.
9:15
And then they get
9:15
started, and then they
9:16
figure out, wait,
9:17
actually, I'm really good
9:19
at something completely
9:20
different, and I'm going
9:21
to go in this different
9:22
direction. And like being
9:23
part of that journey, and
9:24
kind of like being there
9:25
to support and mentor
9:26
them where we can is, I
9:29
think, a really, really
9:30
important and fun bit of
9:32
being an STR leader.
9:33
Well, I love the you
9:34
know, very clear. You got
9:35
a passion for it. Let's
9:36
talk about some of the
9:37
changes that you have
9:38
seen. You know, I
9:38
appreciate you said
9:39
yourself. You don't know
9:41
age yourself with some of
9:42
your answers, but some of
9:43
your answers are, are
9:44
indicating you've got
9:45
vast experience here,
9:46
right? You've done this
9:47
role for a long time. You
9:49
talk about what worked
9:50
last year isn't working
9:51
this year. What's one
9:53
change that you are
9:54
seeing right now that
9:55
was, uh, wasn't apparent
9:57
last year? Well, whether
9:58
it's last year or a
9:58
little bit longer ago.
10:00
I think there's been a
10:01
massive shift of quality,
10:02
of quantity. So
10:03
definitely the shift from
10:06
just blasting and just
10:08
putting more and more and
10:09
more activities in
10:10
knowing that at some
10:11
point things will be
10:12
okay. Now you really need
10:14
to be a lot more
10:15
researched, considered
10:17
personalised, etc, at
10:19
least in organisations
10:20
that I've been, that I've
10:22
been at, so that's a big
10:23
shift, and there's just a
10:24
lot more tools these days
10:25
to help SDRs with doing
10:28
that right. So I think
10:30
expectations have gone up
10:32
that if you're an SDR who
10:34
doesn't manage to have
10:35
well researched and well
10:38
written and well,
10:40
personalised messages
10:43
you're doing something
10:44
wrong, because everything
10:45
is there to help you do
10:47
it. And a year ago, I
10:48
don't think a lot of that
10:49
was available yet. So
10:51
people were like, No,
10:52
it's fine. Like, he
10:53
couldn't help it, you
10:54
know what I mean? And now
10:55
it's like, no, no, no,
10:56
no. You should exactly
10:57
know how to how to do
10:58
this now. And you
10:59
Mark Ackers: mentioned
10:59
tech stack. So I want to
11:02
ask you what a key piece
11:04
of technology is that you
11:05
use today that perhaps
11:06
you didn't use a couple
11:07
of years ago? And the
11:08
answer, of course, cannot
11:10
be cognizant. But I'll do
11:12
that for you at my sales
11:13
coach. We're we're
11:14
customers of cognizant.
11:16
And Cognizant is a
11:17
customer and my sales
11:18
coach, of course, but
11:18
yeah, Cognizant is an
11:19
amazing tool. I know we'd
11:21
be lost without it. But
11:22
without saying, cognism,
11:23
what is one piece in your
11:26
tech stack that you
11:26
didn't have a couple of
11:27
years ago that you just
11:28
couldn't live without now
11:29
looking to unlock your
11:30
team's full potential, at
11:31
my sales coach, we pair
11:33
individuals and teams
11:34
with expert coaches for
11:35
personalised one to one
11:36
and group coaching
11:37
sessions. Our platform
11:39
makes booking seamless.
11:40
It tracks progress and
11:41
delivers real results.
11:43
Studies show expert
11:44
coaching increases win
11:45
rates by 30% and revenue
11:47
by 7% whether you're an
11:49
individual or a team
11:50
leader, we provide
11:51
coaching that sticks and
11:52
delivers visit my sales
11:53
coach.com use the link in
11:55
the bio and start
11:56
achieving your goals
11:57
today.
11:57
catherine olivier: So
11:58
I'll break that answer up
11:59
in two. I think, like,
12:00
couple of years ago,
12:01
like, long time ago, we
12:02
didn't have things like
12:03
outreach and SalesLoft,
12:04
so having that has made
12:06
an incredible impact to
12:08
how SDRs go about their
12:09
day to day, right? So I
12:11
think that's been, that's
12:12
been one massive shift
12:14
that I've seen over the
12:15
years. But again, that
12:15
ages me massively,
12:16
because that's been
12:17
around for a while. And I
12:18
think tools like Gong,
12:20
right? Recording,
12:22
insights, training and
12:24
coaching on on calls,
12:26
etc, made a massive
12:27
impact as well, and
12:29
that's not been around
12:30
for too long either. It
12:31
feels like it's been
12:32
around forever, but it
12:33
really hasn't. Yes,
12:34
Mark Ackers: I mean,
12:35
there I'd say, like table
12:36
stakes. Now aren't they
12:37
having having a tool
12:39
like, like Gong,
12:40
conversation
12:40
intelligence, obviously,
12:42
Jiminy here as a UK
12:44
version of that as well.
12:45
And then, like say,
12:46
sales, loft, outreach.
12:48
I've bought outreach
12:49
before and been in that
12:51
process. Do you have a
12:52
preference out of sales?
12:53
Often outreach? Ah,
12:54
catherine olivier: funny
12:54
that you ask. Everyone
12:55
always asks me I started
12:57
the first one I got used
12:58
to was sales loft. Then
13:00
when I changed
13:01
organisations, they had
13:02
outreach, weren't happy,
13:03
and then we moved to
13:04
sales loft, so that was
13:06
an interesting one, and
13:07
in other organisations,
13:09
so the last one, and now
13:10
with Cognizant, we have
13:11
outreach. And I think, to
13:13
be fair, both are good,
13:14
both do a similar thing.
13:16
So I might have like a
13:17
personal preference, but
13:18
it's not necessarily
13:19
based on how well they
13:21
work, fair enough.
13:21
Mark Ackers: I'll let you
13:22
stay on the fence of that
13:23
one slightly let's talk
13:24
about landing the role at
13:26
cognism. Huge shoes to
13:28
fill, in the sense of
13:29
David Bentham. Had that
13:31
role, very well known in
13:32
the industry, been with
13:34
cognism a long time? Take
13:36
me back to first of all,
13:38
how did that opportunity
13:39
come about? Did you apply
13:40
for it, or were you
13:41
approached? Funnily
13:42
catherine olivier: enough,
13:43
both. Okay. So obviously
13:46
I'd known Dave and been
13:48
following him, and like
13:49
following cognism as
13:50
well, so, and I'd been a
13:51
Cognizant customer for
13:53
quite a while. So it's
13:54
also like, Okay, I know
13:55
about it, and I love the
13:56
I love the company and
13:57
the product. So obviously
13:58
you then see, hey,
13:59
something comes up at
14:00
cognism, and they go,
14:01
Wow, okay, this is kind
14:03
of perfect, because it's
14:04
a role that suits me to
14:06
the T and it's a company
14:07
that I'm genuinely
14:08
passionate about, so I
14:09
would love to work there.
14:10
So I applied immediately,
14:12
and then adhere anything
14:13
for a while. I think they
14:14
were kind of overwhelmed
14:15
with the number of
14:16
applications that came
14:17
their way. So I did what
14:18
I think everybody should
14:20
be doing when you're
14:21
applying for any type of
14:22
role, whether it's SDRs
14:24
or anything in
14:24
leadership, you start
14:25
reaching out to the
14:26
people in a company,
14:27
right? So reaching out to
14:29
the hiring team, people
14:30
in HR, people in sales,
14:32
people on the SDR team,
14:34
to just understand what
14:35
was going on, what were
14:36
their needs. How would
14:38
that fit me? And if
14:40
there's anything
14:40
specifically that I could
14:41
bring up then in
14:42
interviews. And then,
14:43
funnily enough, Dale
14:45
Thorne, who is one of the
14:46
founders of SDR leaders
14:48
of the USA, who's a dear
14:49
friend of mine, he spoke
14:51
to Cognizant CRO at one
14:53
point, and he was like,
14:54
oh, have you spoken to
14:55
her yet about the role?
14:58
And I think the answer
14:59
was no. The application
15:02
got lost somewhere in the
15:04
in the heaps of other
15:05
ones, right? But then he
15:06
he dug it out, and he
15:07
reached out and he said,
15:09
Actually, I've, I've had
15:11
a look, and I think it
15:11
would be a very good idea
15:13
if we have a
15:13
Mark Ackers: chat. A few
15:14
things there. One, using
15:15
your network, really
15:16
smart move. Two, I agree,
15:20
treating the role like
15:21
you would a sales
15:21
opportunity, working it
15:23
multi threading. How did
15:24
you reach out to those
15:25
people? Was that email?
15:26
Was that phone call? A
15:27
mix? What were you doing?
15:28
A mix of phone and
15:29
LinkedIn, and then, what
15:30
did the interview process
15:31
look like? This is a type
15:33
of interview that many
15:34
people might not have
15:35
gone for, an incredibly
15:37
senior position a massive
15:38
organisation responsible
15:40
for a large team. What
15:42
did that interview
15:43
process look like, start
15:44
to finish?
15:45
catherine olivier: So
15:45
mine was a little bit
15:46
lopsided, because I
15:47
started with the CRO who
15:49
would have, would
15:49
probably have been the
15:50
last one, right? So that
15:52
was, that was an
15:53
interesting one. So had a
15:55
chat with him, spoke,
15:56
obviously, to the to the
15:58
recruitment team. So had
15:59
a, had a lot of sessions
16:01
with James Corfield, who
16:03
is our head of the TA
16:04
team, and he's been
16:05
great. So answering all
16:06
the questions as to,
16:07
like, why is this role
16:08
even here? Like, why did
16:09
they leave? And
16:11
understanding a little
16:12
bit better about about
16:14
the expectations. And it
16:15
was with God I've got to
16:17
think back. Like, like, a
16:19
workshopping session
16:20
with, like, some heads of
16:23
sales. So I sat down with
16:25
with John islet, for
16:26
instance, right the head
16:27
of our sales
16:28
organisation. I do know
16:29
that the very last one
16:30
was a an hour with the
16:33
CEO to again talk about
16:35
that. So I I've had
16:39
different experiences in
16:41
going for these type of
16:42
roles and having
16:43
interviews, having to do
16:45
your 3060, 90
16:47
presentation, I've had to
16:49
present a five year plan
16:51
before where they asked
16:52
me for a five year plan
16:54
that I had to present,
16:55
etc. That wasn't the case
16:58
here. It was very, I
17:00
would almost say
17:01
conversational and
17:02
strategic, and really
17:04
seeing whether my views
17:06
and my way of working,
17:07
etc, aligns with what
17:10
they needed. How
17:11
Mark Ackers: helpful do
17:12
you think was the
17:13
recommendation from your
17:14
friend straight to the
17:15
CRO in terms of taking
17:18
your interview to more of
17:20
a place of look, we trust
17:21
that you're a good
17:22
candidate. Let's talk
17:23
strategy, versus dropping
17:26
you in at the very
17:26
beginning of the
17:27
interview process. I
17:28
catherine olivier: think
17:28
it was hugely important.
17:30
Mark Ackers: Here's the
17:31
thing. I know you're
17:32
going to say that, and as
17:33
did everyone that's
17:34
listening, and it's the
17:35
same in sales, getting
17:36
that referral into a
17:38
decision maker is just a
17:40
game changer. But I know
17:42
you would have seen this
17:43
to say, I appreciate you
17:43
manage SDRs versus AES
17:45
and quota carry, but
17:46
you'll still see this.
17:47
Oh, we go after referrals
17:49
a lot. Oh, well, perfect,
17:50
right? But what I see all
17:52
the time from from
17:53
sausage, they don't ask
17:54
for referrals. Like, it's
17:55
just something that
17:56
inherently, they don't do
17:57
as often as they should
17:58
when it absolutely works
18:01
like, you know, as a
18:02
great example there you
18:03
mentioned, obviously, and
18:04
you have, like, when we
18:05
went for your resume, it
18:06
had a number of these
18:07
roles when you are
18:09
interviewing, how do you
18:10
prepare for for an
18:11
interview like that?
18:12
What? What do you want to
18:13
show in those interviews?
18:14
I
18:14
catherine olivier: think,
18:15
start at the basics and
18:17
really research the
18:17
company itself. I think
18:19
is important. But then I
18:20
usually try to talk to
18:22
various people on
18:23
different teams to kind
18:24
of prepare as well, like,
18:26
what's what's been going
18:27
well, what's not? What
18:29
are the main discussion
18:31
points and talking points
18:32
so to say within the
18:33
organisation, and I'm
18:35
trying to link that back
18:36
to things I've seen and
18:37
done before, and how I've
18:38
solved that, or how I see
18:40
that you could approach
18:41
it, because I'm very much
18:43
a believer in I don't
18:44
want to pretend to be
18:45
something that I'm not,
18:47
or pretend that I know
18:48
things that I actually
18:49
don't, is kind of a take
18:51
it or leave it approach.
18:53
This is me. This is how I
18:54
work. This is how I look
18:55
at things. This is how I
18:57
would challenge things.
18:58
And if that's the way you
19:00
think you would like your
19:02
organisation to be run,
19:03
then I think this is a
19:04
match. If you would like
19:06
it to be completely
19:07
different, then I would
19:09
need to go against
19:10
everything I stand for.
19:11
And then I rather not
19:12
talking about
19:13
Mark Ackers: the first
19:14
few weeks in that role.
19:15
Then, as I say, I'm
19:16
really keen to understand
19:17
the mindset, right? I
19:19
know you're really strong
19:21
leader. I've spent time
19:22
with you equally. I know
19:24
what it can feel like to
19:25
fill shoes from someone
19:27
else. How do you approach
19:30
those first few weeks and
19:31
those first few
19:32
conversations? I'm the
19:33
new boss. How do you
19:35
approach those
19:36
situations? Very
19:37
catherine olivier: carefully,
19:37
but I've been very, very
19:39
lucky with incognizance,
19:40
because my boss, the CRO
19:42
Rob tomcek, he gave me
19:45
time. So instead of
19:46
giving me the team from
19:48
day one, having seven
19:50
people reporting to me,
19:51
the whole organisation
19:52
sit under me, he gave me
19:54
a quarter or longer, if I
19:56
wanted to, to just
19:57
understand the business.
19:58
So they kept. Running the
20:00
way they were running.
20:01
They didn't change a
20:02
thing. And I was just
20:03
there observing, talking
20:05
to people, interviewing,
20:07
participating in
20:08
meetings, and just taking
20:10
notes and making a plan
20:14
at that point. Rather
20:15
than just coming in from
20:16
day one going, Hello,
20:17
we're going to do
20:18
everything different. I
20:19
was very, very fortunate
20:21
to be given the chance to
20:22
just take the time to
20:24
understand the business
20:25
better before having to
20:27
make any decisive calls.
20:29
Mark Ackers: I love that.
20:30
I mean, to give you a
20:31
quarter just feels like a
20:32
really well thought out
20:34
process from cognism and
20:36
the right way to do
20:37
things. One of the
20:38
questions I'll have for
20:39
you and everyone has
20:41
impostor syndrome at
20:43
certain points in their
20:44
career and in day to day
20:45
life. No doubt, even
20:47
though you are well
20:48
qualified and exceptional
20:50
candidate to hire into
20:51
this role, they would
20:51
have been part of you
20:52
that had that level of
20:53
imposter syndrome, new
20:54
role, new gig, as I say,
20:56
taking over. How did you
20:58
manage that imposter
20:59
syndrome that you may
21:00
have had taken the role I
21:01
have
21:02
catherine olivier: it
21:02
every day, to be fair. So
21:03
that doesn't really ever
21:05
go away. I don't think,
21:06
at least, not for not for
21:07
me, but I think it's just
21:08
about trusting your skill
21:11
set and going, Look, I
21:13
also have to trust the
21:14
people that hire me that
21:15
they know what they're
21:15
doing, and they wouldn't
21:17
give me the role if they
21:18
didn't see something in
21:19
me, right? So, and that's
21:20
kind of where I'm getting
21:21
back to, like, I'm not
21:22
pretending anything that
21:23
I'm not so I don't have
21:25
to be fearful about,
21:26
like, keeping up a
21:27
pretence or anything like
21:28
that, as I as I go about
21:31
my my day to day, just
21:33
like I've told them
21:33
exactly what I know. I've
21:35
told them how I want to
21:36
approach it. And they
21:37
saw, yeah, this is a good
21:38
idea. So now that's what
21:40
I'm going to be doing. So
21:41
kind of read by staying
21:42
really, really close to
21:43
myself, I think it's the
21:44
way to, like, try to
21:45
minimise that imposter
21:47
that imposter syndrome.
21:48
But generally, it doesn't
21:49
ever really go away.
21:50
Mark Ackers: I agree
21:51
everyone I speak to. And
21:53
when this comes up about
21:54
imposter syndrome,
21:55
everyone has it. And as
21:56
you say, near enough, if
21:57
not every day is near
21:58
enough. Every day when
22:00
you're having those
22:01
moments of imposter
22:02
syndrome, how do you deal
22:03
with it? Do you deal with
22:05
it in your head and by
22:06
yourself? Or do you speak
22:07
to anyone
22:08
catherine olivier: most
22:08
of the time? It's, like,
22:10
fleeting and I can deal
22:11
with it in my head for by
22:12
very rationally going,
22:13
No, come on. I can do
22:14
this. I've done this
22:15
before. If it gets worse,
22:17
and specifically, like,
22:18
around the times that
22:19
you're, like,
22:19
interviewing for new
22:20
roles, or there's like,
22:21
massive changes happening
22:23
in organisations that,
22:24
you know, oh, my
22:25
goodness, Am I doing the
22:26
right thing here? I'm
22:27
very lucky that my
22:27
husband's super
22:28
supportive. So he'll,
22:29
he'll listen, and then
22:30
he'll go and be the voice
22:32
of reason, going like,
22:33
come on. You've been
22:33
doing this for ages. You
22:35
can do this. This is
22:36
fine. And something else
22:37
that's been super, super
22:38
helpful has been like a
22:39
community, like the sales
22:40
leaders of EMEA, where
22:42
there's other SDR leaders
22:44
in similar situations,
22:45
and I can just call them
22:47
up and go, am I crazy?
22:48
I'm trying to do this,
22:49
like, is it just me? And
22:51
then you can have that,
22:52
you can have that
22:53
conversation. So that's
22:54
been really super over
22:55
the past few years as
22:56
well,
22:57
Mark Ackers: amazing. And
22:58
one of the things that I
22:59
know you now get because
23:00
we've started working
23:01
together with my sales
23:02
coach. Is access to a
23:04
coach here, one to one
23:05
coaching. But I'm
23:07
curious, throughout your
23:08
career, have you ever had
23:10
a coach or a mentor that
23:12
you work with?
23:12
catherine olivier: I've
23:13
had a coach once before.
23:14
They let me think back.
23:16
So that was when I was at
23:17
EDB. They gave like a
23:19
certain level of
23:19
leadership, leadership
23:20
coaching. So we all got
23:23
group sessions, and then
23:25
some one on one sessions
23:26
with our personal coach.
23:27
And that was very
23:28
helpful, but it was very
23:29
much focused on how to
23:31
become a better leader as
23:32
such. And it wasn't
23:33
necessarily, well, it
23:34
sounds relevant, like
23:35
very personal on like the
23:36
How to Become a Better
23:37
you kind of thing.
23:38
Mark Ackers: What about
23:39
though, throughout your
23:39
career? Have you had
23:41
someone that you've been
23:42
able to lean on, maybe,
23:43
maybe less formal than a
23:45
coach and a coach
23:46
relationship, but someone
23:47
that's kind of taken you
23:48
under their wing and
23:49
helped you? There's been
23:50
catherine olivier: various
23:50
people, I think, over the
23:51
years, where some helped
23:55
more than others, some
23:55
helped very consciously,
23:57
and others maybe more by
23:59
accident. But you learn
24:00
from people that you work
24:01
with. Someone who always
24:02
comes back in in mind is
24:04
a lady called Paige
24:06
powers. I was back when I
24:07
worked at Extreme
24:08
Networks as a just an SDR
24:11
manager, and later the
24:12
leader of their inside
24:13
sales team and their SDR
24:14
team. And she was head of
24:15
Global inside sales, and
24:17
it was the first how to
24:19
call it, like powerful
24:20
woman, female leader that
24:22
I ever encountered,
24:24
because, like, tech
24:25
sales, it's a lot of
24:26
guys, right? So all the
24:28
like, there's girl SDRs,
24:29
but I hadn't necessarily
24:30
worked for a female boss
24:32
before, and that was a
24:33
revelation at that point
24:35
in my career, in any
24:36
case, and she taught me
24:38
things like, maybe
24:40
consciously or
24:40
subconsciously, from her
24:41
end, about like being
24:44
just yourself, and not
24:45
being afraid to just be a
24:47
woman, even though
24:48
everyone else is not, and
24:50
just making kind of that
24:51
your strength, rather
24:52
than trying to pretend
24:54
you're all masculine and
24:55
one of the guys and stuff
24:56
like that. And I think
24:58
that was super, super
24:59
valuable. That point,
25:00
Mark Ackers: Paige
25:01
powers. What an
25:01
incredible name. That
25:02
sounds like a superhero
25:04
name, right? So tell me a
25:05
bit more about Paige
25:06
powers, then it feels
25:07
like she was important
25:09
person in the development
25:11
of you. You've shared
25:13
there that she encouraged
25:14
you to be who you are.
25:15
And I've really picked
25:16
that up in the interview
25:17
that one you're not
25:19
afraid to say, look, this
25:20
is who I am. These are my
25:21
strengths. These are my
25:23
weaknesses or blind
25:24
spots. And you'll say
25:26
that even at the risk of
25:27
someone saying, Well,
25:27
maybe you're not right
25:28
for the job then. And
25:29
that comes down to my
25:30
second thing that I've
25:31
noticed is you're really
25:32
not attached to the
25:33
outcome. The outcome will
25:34
be what the outcome is. I
25:36
know who I am and what I
25:38
can do, and it feels like
25:40
perhaps you first learned
25:41
that from from Paige.
25:42
Would that be fair?
25:43
catherine olivier: Yeah,
25:43
I think that's where it
25:44
started Exactly. So do
25:46
what you think is right
25:48
and make people
25:49
understand why you're
25:51
doing what you're doing.
25:52
Go to Bat for your team,
25:53
right? Like, she always
25:55
threw herself up as, I
25:57
think she called herself
25:58
a mama bear or something
25:59
like that, where she was
26:00
like, I protect my team
26:02
and try to protect them
26:03
at all costs, and that's
26:04
her job, and they don't
26:05
need to worry about
26:06
everything. And I really,
26:07
really liked that in her
26:09
approach of things,
26:11
right, trying to shield
26:12
the team. And she was
26:13
always very personally
26:16
involved on a personal
26:18
level, you know what I
26:19
mean? Like, genuinely
26:20
trying to get to know
26:21
people, and don't be
26:23
like, Oh, I'm I'm the big
26:25
boss, and, you know, I
26:27
don't care about all
26:28
those minions under me,
26:29
very, very personally
26:31
involved. And not a
26:32
weaker leader for it,
26:34
right? I think even a
26:35
stronger one, because
26:36
people would run through
26:38
fire for her. You know
26:39
what I mean, it's like,
26:40
because of that kind of
26:41
relationship, and I think
26:43
that kind of opened my
26:44
eyes, like, that's how I
26:45
would like to be when I
26:46
grow up, right? Still not
26:48
there, but it's something
26:49
to something to strive
26:51
for.
26:51
Mark Ackers: When you say
26:52
you're still not there,
26:53
would you say that it's
26:53
just you being humble and
26:55
a little bit of imposter
26:56
syndrome? Or are there
26:57
things that you genuinely
26:58
think you need to work
26:59
Unknown: on? No, I always
27:00
have to work on things,
27:01
right? Absolutely. What's
27:02
one thing that
27:03
Mark Ackers: you would
27:03
like to to improve on?
27:05
catherine olivier: That's
27:05
a tricky one, but I think
27:07
I'm very aware of the
27:09
fact that I sometimes get
27:10
really stuck in my ways,
27:12
like, Oh, I think this is
27:13
the solution, and then
27:14
I'll keep working on it
27:15
like forever, even if
27:16
it's not going anywhere.
27:17
And I need to be able to
27:18
kind of what you were
27:19
saying, like, detach from
27:20
the outcome and, like,
27:21
take a step back. Like, I
27:22
know this is what I have
27:23
been working on for a
27:24
very long time, but it's
27:25
time to let it go. It's
27:26
not going to go anywhere
27:27
and start over or try
27:29
something different. And
27:30
I think that moment of
27:31
letting go, I I'm still a
27:33
bit on the late side with
27:35
that sometimes, what's
27:36
Mark Ackers: the last
27:37
thing that you let go of?
27:38
Because it just wasn't
27:39
working. As
27:39
catherine olivier: the
27:39
comp plan changes, right?
27:42
Like, I know something
27:43
needs to change, and I
27:44
want to change it, but
27:45
eventually just need to
27:46
go away pause, you know,
27:49
like, wait a little bit
27:50
and regroup, talk to more
27:52
people and then try
27:53
again. When you say talk
27:54
to more people. Who do
27:55
you mean, generally,
27:56
within my organisation,
27:58
so the people that are
28:00
going to be either
28:00
impacted by it, or the
28:02
people that have a very
28:03
better, much better
28:04
understanding of the
28:06
impacts and the numbers
28:08
behind it, etc. So I have
28:10
a very close relationship
28:11
with Rev ops and and
28:12
stuff like that. So I
28:13
think that's an important
28:14
one. But I also run like
28:16
ideas past other SDR
28:18
leaders, like, oh, I
28:19
would love to go, and I
28:21
don't know, pay on this,
28:22
and then they go, oof.
28:23
I'll never do that
28:24
because I tried it and
28:25
didn't work, right? So
28:26
it's really nice to have
28:27
other people that you can
28:28
just ask, ask things. But
28:30
on the other hand, you
28:30
need to keep in mind that
28:31
they don't know your
28:33
organisation and your
28:34
team, that the way that I
28:35
do and their views might
28:37
be skewed based on like,
28:38
their circumstances. So
28:40
it's like nice to have
28:42
like a sounding board and
28:43
to kind of get maybe some
28:45
fresh ideas, etc, but
28:46
then you do have to make
28:48
sure you can apply it
28:49
properly in your own
28:50
organisation. And that's
28:51
what I need, like the
28:53
various bits of my team
28:54
for and I think
28:55
Mark Ackers: that's an
28:55
important thing, you
28:56
know, when you can lean
28:57
on other people and ask
28:59
what's working for you
29:00
and and sort of take, but
29:02
take back the bits that
29:03
you think you can apply,
29:04
and maybe not the bits
29:06
that wouldn't work. But I
29:07
love that you've got
29:08
other people you can
29:08
reach out to. And again,
29:10
it just comes back to
29:11
you're not afraid to say,
29:12
look, I don't think I've
29:13
got all the answers here.
29:14
Can somebody help? And
29:15
even internally, where
29:16
sometimes people might
29:17
not want to do that, they
29:18
might not want to look
29:19
weak internally. They
29:20
might want to look like
29:21
they haven't got the
29:21
answer internally, but
29:22
you're just look, this is
29:24
my strength, this bit I
29:25
need some help with, and
29:26
you're not afraid to do
29:27
that. And I really admire
29:28
that. I kind
29:29
catherine olivier: of
29:29
have the same approach to
29:30
my my team and to my CRS,
29:32
right? Because I tell
29:33
them, Look, I can sit on
29:34
my little perch and,
29:35
like, make plans for you,
29:36
and like, make rules, but
29:38
you guys are doing it on
29:39
a day to day. I don't
29:41
know how it impacts you,
29:42
genuinely, hour to hour,
29:44
right? So if there's
29:45
anything that you need or
29:47
that I'm trying to put in
29:49
place that you feel will
29:51
not work, let me know. If
29:53
you have suggestions. Let
29:54
me know. Right? It's been
29:55
a very long time since
29:57
I've been an SDR like on
29:59
a day to day. Basis, and
30:01
even though I think I
30:02
have a fairly good
30:03
understanding of how it's
30:04
all going every single
30:05
day, I might not have the
30:08
right insights in the
30:09
intricacies. So to say
30:11
right so I always say,
30:13
Look, I don't know
30:13
everything. So if you're
30:14
feeling I'm missing
30:15
something or I need to
30:17
look into things, please
30:18
flag it. I love that
30:19
Mark Ackers: as a sign of
30:20
a great leader, you know,
30:22
really embraces that
30:23
feedback, of that that
30:25
circle of feedback and
30:26
that feedback loop from
30:27
their team. It may be 10
30:29
years time, maybe five
30:30
years time, someone in
30:31
your team is going to be
30:32
on a podcast, and they're
30:33
going to be talking about
30:34
their own page powers,
30:35
and that's going to be
30:36
you, because you're,
30:37
you're leading the SDR
30:38
managers at cognism, many
30:41
of whom are first time
30:43
SDR managers themselves.
30:45
What are they finding
30:47
hardest right now as
30:48
first time SDR managers?
30:50
Oh,
30:50
catherine olivier: good
30:50
one. I think one of the
30:53
things that is always
30:54
hard when you're first
30:55
time SDR manager is that
30:56
you can't manage every
30:58
single person the same
30:59
way, because people are
31:00
very different. They
31:02
respond to different
31:03
things. Call them
31:05
triggers, or, you know,
31:06
it's the stick, carrot,
31:07
kind of discussion like,
31:09
people have different
31:10
ambitions, different
31:12
things that drive them.
31:14
So you can't just blanket
31:16
your approach to your
31:18
team, even if it's only
31:19
seven people, right, it's
31:20
still very necessary that
31:21
you kind of figure out
31:23
what makes your team tick
31:24
on an individual level,
31:26
and then kind of adjust
31:27
your approach for that.
31:28
And I think that's hard,
31:29
because when you've been
31:31
in SDR, your manager
31:32
managed you a certain
31:33
way, and you might assume
31:35
that that's how they
31:35
managed everybody, and
31:37
that's therefore the way
31:39
that everybody needs to
31:40
be managed going forward,
31:42
and it's again like that,
31:43
disconnecting from, wait
31:44
a second, I can do things
31:46
differently because this
31:47
person needs different
31:49
inputs, different
31:50
outputs, different
31:51
approaches. And that's
31:52
fine. That's okay, but
31:54
coming to that
31:55
conclusion, and then I
31:56
think effectively
31:57
implementing that is
31:58
always a learning path. I
32:00
think what
32:00
Mark Ackers: you said
32:01
there, whilst it was so
32:02
obvious, is also a light
32:04
bulb moment, in the sense
32:05
of you're totally right.
32:07
If you're managed by
32:09
someone, you will just
32:11
assume that's how they
32:12
manage everybody, because
32:14
you don't know what you
32:14
don't know. And I think,
32:16
like I say, it's an
32:16
obvious thing to say, but
32:18
until you really say that
32:19
out loud, when you step
32:20
up into management, you
32:22
almost have this warped
32:23
reality of, well, this is
32:24
how I was managed. That's
32:26
obviously how they
32:26
managed everybody. And it
32:28
can be hard to not fall
32:30
into that trap. As I say,
32:31
really obvious thing, but
32:33
a real light bulb moment,
32:34
I think, for many people
32:35
to when they're thinking
32:36
about stepping up into
32:37
management, to consider
32:40
how are other people
32:40
managed? And I think one
32:42
of the mistakes that many
32:43
people share with me, and
32:44
I think you'll probably
32:46
say you've made this
32:47
mistake yourself at some
32:48
point, I know I have, is
32:50
that that's why it's easy
32:51
to try and hire people
32:53
like you hire a team of
32:55
mini use because you can
32:56
manage them in the same
32:57
way. Why is that the
32:59
wrong thing to do?
33:00
Because
33:00
catherine olivier: you
33:00
should never have a team
33:02
of all the same people,
33:03
because then you'll never
33:04
get any fresh ideas,
33:05
fresh approaches,
33:07
different views, etc. You
33:08
need it specifically,
33:09
because what I said,
33:10
Right? SDR, world keeps
33:12
changing, and you need to
33:13
keep innovating and being
33:15
creative, etc. And every
33:17
if every person thinks
33:19
exactly the same way,
33:20
you're gonna get down
33:22
through a very, very
33:23
narrow path. How
33:24
Mark Ackers: do you
33:24
ensure then that when
33:26
you're hiring people,
33:28
that you are hiring
33:29
people that are just very
33:30
different to you? Have
33:31
you got a way of doing
33:32
that, yes
33:32
catherine olivier: and
33:33
no, like in the way that
33:34
when we're going through
33:35
a hiring process, we're
33:37
looking for skills first
33:38
and foremost, right?
33:39
We're not gonna go like,
33:40
Oh, we need to have
33:42
someone who was x, not.
33:45
Okay, so we're going for
33:46
skills and experience.
33:47
However, you eventually
33:49
end up with a pool of, I
33:50
don't know, say, 10. Then
33:52
you have two roles, and
33:53
you go, like, how we're
33:53
going to do this? And
33:54
then it's very much about
33:56
like, who's slightly
33:57
different, who's
33:58
exciting, who has that
33:59
extra gene, Sequoia,
34:01
right? That you go, Okay,
34:02
this is not something
34:03
we've seen before this.
34:04
This would be like an
34:05
interesting addition. I
34:07
mean, we know what's
34:08
what's successful when
34:09
you're looking at SDRs,
34:10
like people have who have
34:11
played, like, competitive
34:12
sports or anything like,
34:14
like those things. Yes,
34:15
great. SDRs, absolutely.
34:17
But I don't want the full
34:18
SDR team that were all
34:20
former competitive
34:21
sportsmen, right? That
34:22
that's another like
34:23
extreme on that, on that
34:25
end. So it's nice to kind
34:27
of mix that up a little.
34:29
So I trust my team to go
34:31
through the first cycles
34:33
of the hiring process
34:34
themselves and then
34:35
present me with their top
34:37
got it top five, or
34:38
something like that. I
34:39
always do the final
34:40
round, and then I pick
34:42
and make a case, right?
34:43
I'm not the final
34:44
decision maker on that
34:45
and as such, but I try to
34:47
explain to to the team
34:49
like, who I think would
34:50
be a valuable addition
34:51
based on maybe those
34:53
softer type of criteria.
34:55
Mark Ackers: Hey, sales
34:56
leaders, do you want a
34:57
cost effective way to
34:58
develop your team skills?
34:59
And help them smash their
35:01
quotas. My sales coach
35:02
offers team memberships
35:04
for just 20 pounds per
35:05
month per individual plus
35:07
VAT. This will give your
35:08
reps access to small
35:10
group tactical coaching
35:11
sessions, daily power
35:12
hours and exclusive
35:14
events, all led by world
35:15
class sales coaches with
35:16
over 25 group sessions to
35:18
choose from monthly,
35:19
there's something for
35:20
every role. We have
35:22
sessions for SDRs all the
35:23
way out to CROs. Empower
35:25
your team to perform to
35:26
their best visit my sales
35:28
coach.com. To get
35:29
started. The link is in
35:30
the description. Have to
35:31
ask, have you got in the
35:33
these final stage
35:34
interviews? Have you got
35:36
a killer question that
35:37
you love to ask, and it
35:38
can make or break the
35:40
success in in the
35:41
interview, not
35:42
catherine olivier: really
35:44
genuinely. I'm trying to
35:46
think my starting
35:47
question is always
35:48
really, really simple,
35:49
because I found people
35:50
are for one reason, or
35:51
they're very nervous when
35:52
they get to talk to me,
35:53
so I need to, kind of,
35:54
like, ease them into it,
35:56
right? And my first
35:57
question is like, why did
35:58
you apply like, and then
36:00
they do have to put it
36:02
all on the table. And I
36:03
think some people go,
36:05
Well, I just needed a
36:06
job. And then it's like,
36:06
no, bye. But it's the
36:08
ones that that come with,
36:10
like, a well thought out
36:12
answer, which I would
36:12
like to think they'd have
36:14
after they've gone
36:15
through like two other or
36:16
three other rounds by
36:17
then, right? They should
36:18
have an answer that kind
36:20
of summarises everything
36:23
they've learned about
36:24
themselves and about us
36:26
in the roles before, in
36:28
the rounds before
36:29
Mark Ackers: I just did
36:29
the job, is an
36:31
incredulous answer to be
36:32
giving at that stage of
36:33
an interview. One of the
36:34
challenges that that we
36:35
have in sales is that
36:37
first time managers are
36:38
almost always former
36:41
great reps that have been
36:43
promoted, like top
36:43
performers, that get
36:44
promoted and for logical
36:46
reasons, in many ways.
36:47
You know, we don't want
36:48
to lose them. We want to
36:49
retain them. They're
36:50
ambitious. Hence, they've
36:51
been top performers. But
36:52
being a top performer
36:53
doesn't mean you're going
36:54
to be a great manager to
36:56
start with. Now we could
36:57
talk about that, but
36:59
here's the other
36:59
challenge that I think
37:00
rarely get spoken about,
37:02
and I've struggled with
37:04
this as as many, many
37:05
other people that have
37:06
had a first time manager
37:08
role. How do you go from
37:09
being a friend to a
37:11
manager that's
37:12
catherine olivier: so
37:12
hard, it is so hard, I
37:16
think people don't
37:16
realise how tricky that
37:18
is when they get into it.
37:19
It's a reason that you
37:21
have to be very, very
37:22
careful who you pick to
37:24
promote into a leadership
37:25
position if they were
37:26
very much part of the SDR
37:28
click, so to say, right
37:29
before, and that's why
37:31
very often, I would very
37:33
much gravitate to those
37:35
people that are already
37:36
almost naturally just
37:38
mentoring and Helping the
37:40
rest of their team
37:41
already rather than maybe
37:43
being the the a list
37:44
superstar 100 or 50 plus
37:46
percent. SDR, those are
37:48
not necessarily always
37:49
the ones that are the
37:50
most helpful, because
37:51
they're very much focused
37:52
on their own success,
37:53
right, and doing the
37:54
right thing. And fair
37:55
enough, right? That's
37:55
okay, but it's those ones
37:57
that are doing well, but
37:58
are then also taking time
38:00
out to sit down with the
38:01
others, or, like, sharing
38:03
their their experiences,
38:05
or their their tips and
38:06
tricks, etc. I think that
38:08
is way more valuable when
38:10
you're, like, deciding
38:10
who to like, promote
38:12
into, like, a leadership
38:13
role. When they are
38:14
interviewing for that,
38:15
it's like very much. Do
38:17
you realise what this
38:18
means? Right? Because
38:20
it's going to be hard,
38:21
and you'll have to do
38:22
that from the beginning.
38:24
You can't ease your way
38:25
into it. You can't go,
38:26
Oh, my first month of
38:28
being the manager, I'm
38:29
still very much your
38:30
friend. But then I need
38:32
to start becoming a
38:33
little bit more harsh on
38:34
you the month after, and
38:35
then the month after
38:36
that, I'm really gonna,
38:37
like, crack down on
38:38
things. Doesn't work. You
38:40
have to set expectations
38:42
from day one that they
38:43
go, Okay, now it's
38:44
different, and it doesn't
38:45
mean we can't go out and
38:47
have a drink after work
38:48
again, but it is going to
38:50
just be slightly more
38:53
distant, I think. And I
38:54
think a lot of people
38:55
don't realise how lonely
38:57
leadership can be, right?
38:59
Because there's fewer and
39:00
fewer of you, the higher
39:02
up you go. It's very much
39:03
like the team versus the
39:05
managers, sometimes,
39:06
right, depending on what
39:08
the circumstances are.
39:09
And then you need to keep
39:11
that distance, and you
39:12
need to be able to, like,
39:13
step away and not take it
39:15
personally and just go
39:16
like they're doing their
39:17
thing, and I have to do
39:19
mine. And it is not
39:21
always what you might
39:22
want to do, but that is
39:25
the maturity I think SDR
39:27
leaders need to have if
39:29
you want to be successful
39:30
manager your former
39:31
peers, rather than
39:32
Mark Ackers: make it just
39:32
about cognizant, because
39:34
then you might be talking
39:35
about people that work
39:35
there today. If you look
39:36
back across all the
39:38
people that you've
39:38
managed across your
39:39
career, what are some of
39:40
the mistakes you've seen
39:41
people make, where
39:42
they've stepped into a
39:43
manager role and they've
39:45
got that wrong, they've
39:46
acted like a friend and
39:47
not a manager. Have you
39:48
got some some maybe some
39:49
funny stories or some
39:50
observations that you can
39:51
share,
39:51
catherine olivier: don't
39:51
date them? That's That's
39:53
step one. That's a given,
39:54
though I think it is
39:55
where, when an SDR has
39:58
like to put it like in a
39:59
generator. Generalisation
40:00
has like a grievance, and
40:02
they go, Oh, this isn't
40:03
right, and I feel hard
40:04
done by and it's unfair.
40:06
And then instinctively,
40:08
immediately the manager
40:09
going, Yeah, you're
40:10
right. Like, absolutely,
40:11
I feel Yeah, right,
40:12
because they were an SDR
40:14
before, and they know the
40:15
pain. They feel it. They
40:16
know they understand it
40:18
without taking a beat and
40:20
having a moment ago. Wait
40:21
a second, but what of
40:22
like the view of the
40:24
company and of the wider
40:25
team, and actually the
40:26
overarching rules, and
40:28
without immediately
40:29
agreeing to whatever the
40:31
SDR is feeling and like
40:32
kind of making it a
40:33
bigger thing, just going
40:34
like, I'll look into it.
40:35
Let's look at this. Let's
40:37
take a step back. And I
40:38
need to explain to you
40:39
why. Yeah, it might suck
40:41
as an SDR, but from a
40:43
team perspective, it is
40:44
the right thing to do.
40:45
I'll
40:45
Mark Ackers: avoid the
40:46
can of worms around don't
40:47
date them. Because, yeah,
40:48
I could imagine there's
40:49
some funny stories there.
40:50
But are there any other
40:51
stories of where they've
40:52
just got that line wrong?
40:53
Because that could be
40:54
quite humorous.
40:55
catherine olivier: I
40:55
think it is about
40:56
specifically after work,
40:58
getting too close. So not
41:00
the dating part, but just
41:01
the like being, being
41:02
very, very close friends.
41:04
If you're being very
41:05
close friends with, like,
41:06
one or two on a team, and
41:08
your team is bigger than
41:09
that, you'll always have
41:10
the perception of
41:12
favouritism, right? Like,
41:13
Oh yeah, but you'll do
41:14
that because you tennis
41:16
with each other, or
41:16
because you, you know
41:17
what I mean, like, there,
41:18
there's always that kind
41:19
of thing, even though it
41:20
might not even be the
41:21
case, right? But I think
41:23
being very aware of,
41:24
like, the perception of,
41:26
yeah, putting the one SDR
41:28
above the others because
41:29
you happen to get on a
41:30
lot better is a very
41:32
scary thing to have.
41:34
Mark Ackers: So that's
41:35
really interesting,
41:36
right? That that
41:37
perception of favouritism
41:39
socialising, one of the
41:42
things that I've always
41:43
seen people struggle with
41:45
is is socials after work?
41:46
What do you think a
41:47
manager should do? Should
41:48
they because there's
41:49
options, right? They
41:50
don't go at all. They
41:51
never go, or they go but
41:53
they leave early, or they
41:54
go and they're the last
41:55
ones there because they
41:56
want to stay out late.
41:57
What? How do you get
41:59
those situations right? I
42:00
think
42:01
catherine olivier: it
42:01
does depend on your
42:03
personality and so on. I
42:05
would never necessarily
42:06
tell an STR manager, oh,
42:08
you're not allowed to
42:08
stay until the end,
42:10
right? Because if they're
42:11
the type of person that
42:12
really enjoys that, then
42:13
who am I to tell them?
42:14
No, they should stay very
42:17
sober. So I think, I
42:20
think you need to keep
42:21
your wits about you,
42:22
because you need to make
42:23
sure that you keep that
42:24
professional relationship
42:26
right. Okay, so it's,
42:28
it's very much like you
42:29
can be there and you can
42:29
have a good time, but you
42:31
need to make sure that
42:31
you don't say the wrong
42:32
things, that you don't
42:34
start blabbing about
42:35
things they have no
42:36
concern about, and that
42:37
you're not that person
42:38
that everyone then is
42:39
talking about because you
42:40
were, I don't know,
42:41
dancing on the table or
42:42
fell off the bar or
42:43
anything like that,
42:44
right? Because, again,
42:45
you have to maintain that
42:47
sense of professionalism
42:49
and and so on. And I
42:51
think as a leader, that's
42:52
something you have to
42:53
make sure, like, I don't
42:54
care how you maintain
42:55
that if it means you
42:56
don't drink at all, or if
42:57
you have to leave early
42:58
because, you know, you
42:59
can't contain yourself,
43:00
you know, that's fine,
43:01
and that's a goal you'll
43:02
have to make yourself.
43:03
Mark Ackers: I think that
43:04
could be the hard thing.
43:05
You know, well, just last
43:06
week, I was an SDR, I was
43:08
their friend, and now a
43:09
week later, it's
43:10
someone's birthday or
43:11
someone's leaving do, oh,
43:13
I've got to be completely
43:14
different. And, yeah, I
43:15
mean, I'm sure we can
43:17
exchange many a story.
43:18
There people on the
43:19
tables of one of the
43:20
bars. Let's, um, let's
43:22
talk about how you're
43:23
managing in a hybrid
43:25
world. So, yeah, I was in
43:26
your offices a couple
43:27
weeks ago. We sat down,
43:29
and we're talking about,
43:30
you know, our coaching of
43:31
your SDR managers. And,
43:33
you know, I asked you
43:34
about your commute to
43:35
work, and what was it
43:36
again? Was it? Was it
43:37
three hours? No, no, it's
43:39
just over two. I mean,
43:40
that's still horrendous.
43:41
So a two hour commute
43:43
each way, and you know,
43:44
you're, you're a mother,
43:45
you've got a young boy,
43:46
haven't you? And I asked,
43:47
well, how often do that?
43:48
You said, two days a
43:49
week. And I'm curious
43:51
how, and I know you'll
43:52
have a great answer for
43:53
this, but that's, that's
43:55
the new norm, right? We
43:56
live in that world where,
43:58
if we want to attract the
43:59
best talent, which
44:00
obviously cognizant. Do
44:01
you embrace that? And
44:03
that's what your one you
44:04
know, you live two hours
44:04
away. Why would you want
44:05
to do that every day,
44:06
four hours lost when, as
44:08
I say, you've got a
44:09
family. How do you in a
44:11
remote world, stay close
44:12
to your team? I
44:13
catherine olivier: think
44:13
it's I've grown used to
44:15
it a little bit in the
44:16
sense that I've had fully
44:17
remote teams before. I
44:18
also managed all the way
44:19
through COVID. So that's
44:21
that's helping with the
44:22
experience as well, as
44:24
you can imagine. But I
44:26
think the main thing is
44:27
just managing
44:28
expectations, right? So
44:30
when it comes to like,
44:31
how often I go to the
44:32
office, I was very clear
44:34
whilst interviewing,
44:35
like, there's no way I
44:36
can do this five days a
44:37
week. It's just not
44:38
happening. If that's what
44:39
you want, then that's not
44:41
me, right? Just from a
44:42
practical perspective. I
44:43
love being in the office,
44:44
by the way. I love being
44:45
around people and just
44:47
being able to walk over
44:48
and just having a chat,
44:49
etc. But yeah, at the
44:51
moment, that's just
44:52
logistically not
44:53
possible. So what I do
44:55
make sure of is that the
44:56
time that I am there, I'm
44:58
like, available. So. So I
45:00
tend to make sure I block
45:03
out time that I'm not in
45:05
meetings and I'm just
45:06
there, because what's the
45:08
point of me coming in and
45:09
then going, Oh, I've got
45:10
back to back meetings for
45:11
five hours. I'm going to
45:12
sit in this meeting room
45:13
and I'll come out when
45:14
I'm done right then
45:15
there's genuinely no
45:16
difference for me just
45:18
being at home or being in
45:19
a meeting room in the
45:20
office, trying to make
45:22
sure that I block my day
45:24
so that I either have,
45:25
like, the one on ones
45:26
with the older managers,
45:27
right, that I can do that
45:29
in person, I have
45:30
separate moments that I'm
45:32
just there for SDRs to
45:33
come and have a chat, or
45:35
for me to just walk over
45:36
to to sales or to
45:37
operations or marketing
45:39
and just go and have a
45:40
have a catch up, and have
45:42
that personal connection,
45:43
and then all the other
45:44
hard work I can then do
45:45
when I get home. I
45:46
Mark Ackers: think that
45:47
must be hard for you as
45:48
well, though, because
45:49
you're coming in to serve
45:51
your team. But equally,
45:52
when you're going to be
45:53
in the office, I know
45:54
other senior leaders.
45:55
We're great. Catherine's
45:56
in, we can get some time
45:57
with her, and you'll have
45:58
to push back on that,
45:59
because again, you know,
46:01
what's very clear is how
46:02
you put your team first,
46:03
but that must be very
46:04
difficult for you to try
46:05
and juggle both sides of
46:06
that. Yeah,
46:07
catherine olivier: it is.
46:07
So it's, it's the ever
46:08
evolving state of my
46:10
calendar. And anyone you
46:11
talk to will say that my
46:12
calendar is absolutely
46:13
insane, but I try to just
46:15
juggle it as much as
46:16
possible, and even if it
46:18
means I can go and walk
46:20
to go and grab some lunch
46:22
with a chunk of the team,
46:23
you know what I mean, and
46:23
just have, like, a light
46:24
hearted chat and get to
46:25
know them a little bit
46:26
better. That for me, is
46:27
super valuable.
46:28
Mark Ackers: Speaking of
46:29
going for a walk for
46:30
lunch, you and I walked
46:31
over to Borough Market.
46:33
Have you been
46:34
Unknown: back since? Yes,
46:35
like many times. Have
46:36
you? Have you discovered
46:37
anything new? Well, we
46:38
had a great Spanish
46:39
sandwich last week. This
46:42
was amazing.
46:43
Mark Ackers: I saw these
46:44
strawberries and
46:45
chocolate at Borough
46:46
Market. Yes, they're too
46:47
messy to walk with,
46:48
though. Oh, okay. Well,
46:49
next time I want to, I
46:50
want to try those. You
46:51
have to take me there.
46:52
Um, speaking of juggling,
46:55
right? So juggling Canada
46:56
and whatnot, let's get
46:58
into you as the coach and
47:00
mentor there, but, but
47:01
also a mother, and it's
47:02
very pertinent for me.
47:03
My, I've got two boys,
47:05
but my, my wife, just
47:06
returned back to work two
47:07
days ago after a year off
47:10
for maternity leave, and
47:11
our youngest has started
47:13
nursery. So it's very
47:14
pertinent to me, and I'm
47:15
very conscious of it.
47:16
You're a leader and a
47:18
parent. How do you
47:19
balance the intensity of
47:20
both military
47:21
catherine olivier: precision,
47:22
I would say so it's, it's
47:25
a regime, right? Almost
47:26
like my husband and I
47:27
have like the like school
47:30
drop off, school pickup,
47:31
like he does the one I do
47:32
the other. The beginning
47:33
of the week. We make sure
47:35
we know who is, who does
47:36
what on which day and and
47:38
whether we need to change
47:39
it because of meetings or
47:40
events or anyone being
47:42
out of the country and
47:43
stuff like that. It's
47:44
having a school where I
47:45
can genuinely have him
47:46
from eight in the morning
47:48
until five or six in the
47:49
afternoon, so I can have
47:50
a full day in in between.
47:52
And he's used to that,
47:53
right? He's been there
47:54
since he was, like, six
47:56
months. So so he doesn't
47:57
know any better, and
47:58
loves it. But that gives
48:00
us the space right to to
48:02
plan our days around it.
48:04
And I think for me, it's
48:05
being ruthless with,
48:06
like, blocking those
48:07
moments out. So like, I
48:09
I'm, at the moment, in
48:10
charge of all the
48:11
pickups, so I don't drop
48:12
off, I only pick up, and
48:13
that is blocked in my
48:14
calendar. And I can be on
48:15
calls, because I'll be in
48:16
the car, so I can speak
48:17
on my hand, hands free
48:20
setup, but I can't look
48:21
at slides, so it's
48:22
specifically in my
48:23
calendar. If you want to
48:24
talk to me now, it's a
48:25
chat, and it's not like I
48:27
need to check out any
48:28
graphs or anything like
48:29
that. So doing that, and
48:30
then having an hour after
48:33
where I can spend time
48:34
with my child to, like,
48:36
talk through his day,
48:37
feed him, bathe him, and
48:38
all of that, and then I
48:40
can be back on calls
48:41
again, right? That's,
48:42
that's fine, but it's
48:43
really about being very,
48:44
very, I think, again,
48:46
ruthless in like, No, I
48:47
can't do this because
48:48
this is my time with my
48:49
family. And once he's in
48:51
bed, you know, all bets
48:53
are off, I'm back. That's
48:54
fine,
48:54
Mark Ackers: but that's
48:55
the time of your husband,
48:56
yeah, but he
48:56
catherine olivier: has
48:56
the same he works very
48:57
much American hours as
48:59
well, so he works later,
49:00
late as well, which is
49:01
why he can do the drop
49:02
off in the morning. So,
49:03
yeah, it's the it's to
49:04
juggle. So so to say,
49:06
yeah, do we get loads and
49:07
loads of time together in
49:09
the evenings? Probably
49:10
not, but, like, we make
49:11
up for that over the
49:12
weekends. I don't work on
49:14
the weekends at all.
49:15
Mark Ackers: Good, so I'm
49:15
glad you have that
49:16
boundary. And this next
49:18
question comes from a
49:19
parent that my first born
49:20
was in nursery, eight
49:22
till six, five days a
49:23
week. They went to school
49:25
and it was after school
49:26
club every night of the
49:27
week. Now, got a baby
49:29
that's just started
49:29
nursery. So this comes
49:30
from a place of a parent
49:32
that's done exactly the
49:33
same. But I also know the
49:34
guilt that my wife has
49:37
balancing her career and
49:39
and I feel that too, but
49:40
I feel that that sits
49:41
heavier with her as the
49:42
mother, and I'm just, I'm
49:43
just wondering, you know,
49:44
we tell ourselves every
49:45
day, this is the right
49:46
thing. This is what's
49:47
best for our children.
49:48
This is the right thing.
49:49
But I'd love to hear from
49:51
you as the as the mother,
49:52
and there'll be loads of
49:53
other mothers that listen
49:54
to this, that have their
49:55
kids in after school,
49:57
clubs, breakfast clubs.
49:58
How do you and. And Gil
50:00
is the wrong word,
50:01
because I don't believe
50:01
you should have it, but I
50:02
know it sits with us as
50:03
parents. How do you deal
50:05
with that
50:05
catherine olivier: as
50:05
much as possible? Again,
50:07
by rationalising it out
50:10
going like one, he
50:12
doesn't know any better,
50:12
and he's very happy
50:13
child, so it doesn't seem
50:14
to doing any harm in him
50:15
at the moment. Two, I
50:18
also know I'm a much
50:19
nicer person or better
50:22
mom. I think if I work,
50:23
because I noticed that
50:24
when I'm on maternity
50:25
leave I was miserable,
50:27
that might just be me.
50:28
There's a lot of people
50:28
who love it, right? I
50:30
couldn't wait to go back
50:31
to work because I really,
50:32
really missed it, right?
50:33
So I know that unless I'm
50:35
working, I'm not a very
50:37
happy person to be
50:38
around. So it's better
50:39
for him that I'm doing
50:41
what I'm doing doesn't
50:42
make it any easier,
50:42
though. I mean, I've
50:44
travelled to, like, I had
50:46
to do a presentation in
50:47
in Las Vegas, and I was
50:49
like, on on the verge of
50:50
getting on that plane,
50:52
and then my husband calls
50:53
saying I'm at a GP
50:54
because he's sick. And
50:55
then it's like, that
50:56
moment where you go like,
50:57
Okay, what do I do? Do I
50:58
now not get on this plane
50:59
knowing that there's like
51:00
1000 people waiting for
51:01
me to do that
51:02
presentation, or do I
51:04
trust him to deal with
51:05
it, and then kind of say,
51:06
like, let's see, let's
51:07
see what happens. And
51:08
that's the choice I made,
51:09
because it wasn't
51:09
ridiculously urgent or
51:11
severe at that point, at
51:12
least that's what I
51:13
thought. Went to America.
51:14
I got there and it was
51:15
tonsillitis. So he was a
51:17
very unhappy baby for
51:19
that week. My poor
51:20
husband was like, lack of
51:22
sleep for five nights, I
51:23
think so he wasn't very
51:24
happy. But that was then,
51:25
that is then the balance
51:26
right for like, I'm the
51:28
I'm the leader of the
51:29
organisation that is
51:30
expected to go there and
51:31
do this. Do I trust my
51:33
partner to have my back
51:34
and to deal with this?
51:35
Did I, like, literally,
51:36
every day think, Oh no, I
51:37
need to get on a plane
51:38
back home. Yeah, pretty
51:40
much. So I cut it short
51:41
and went home. But I had,
51:43
I had to go at that
51:44
point, at least that was
51:45
the call that I made, and
51:46
other people might make a
51:47
different call, right?
51:48
And it might also be like
51:50
circumstance or anything
51:51
like that at that point,
51:52
but it's never easy.
51:54
First
51:54
Mark Ackers: of all, you
51:55
made the right call,
51:56
right? You, You are the
51:57
best person to make that
51:59
call and judge. So you
52:01
made the right call 100%
52:02
and I can just so relate
52:04
in a number of ways. I
52:05
I've been at the train
52:06
station, wife's not well,
52:07
child's not well and and
52:09
I appreciate like dad
52:10
guilt doesn't get spoken
52:11
about as much, but had
52:12
that same thing of, do I
52:13
get on this train or not?
52:14
I've got to deliver a
52:15
talk at an exhibition or
52:18
show, etc. I think what
52:19
you've said, though, is
52:20
just so relatable. And I
52:21
think so many people are
52:23
gonna smile when
52:24
listening to that. And
52:25
literally, last night in
52:26
the kitchen, talking to
52:27
my wife, day two back at
52:29
work, and she says, I
52:31
think I'm a better mom
52:32
already. I feel like I've
52:34
got more patience for my
52:36
for my little boy. You
52:37
know, he's quite clingy
52:38
because he's just come
52:39
back from his second dad
52:40
nursery, but I feel like
52:42
I'm here for him because
52:43
I've been at work. My
52:44
mind's been stimulated.
52:46
I'm really enjoying being
52:47
back. I'm gonna be a
52:49
better mom going forward.
52:50
And yeah, my wife
52:51
definitely enjoyed a
52:52
limited paternity leave,
52:53
but part of it sucked.
52:55
Charlie was unwell. She
52:56
was unwell, or a friend
52:57
last minute dropped out
52:58
because their baby needed
53:00
a nap, and it can be a
53:01
really lonely place, but
53:03
yeah, it's, it's great to
53:04
hear how you deal with
53:05
and again, these are
53:07
unfair words, but it's
53:08
what is called that, that
53:09
mum Gill and I was really
53:11
conscious to get into
53:13
your mind of someone with
53:15
such a demanding job, how
53:16
they deal with that, with
53:18
one hell of a commute as
53:19
well. And I really
53:20
enjoyed that part of the
53:21
conversation, I think
53:23
coming towards the end,
53:24
because, again, you
53:25
mentioned how busy your
53:26
calendar is. I know we're
53:27
so fortunate to have your
53:28
time today. Let's try to
53:31
wrap this up. What's one
53:34
thing you wish every SDR
53:36
manager would start doing
53:37
various
53:38
catherine olivier: things?
53:39
First thing that comes up
53:40
is like, just be yourself
53:41
and trust your trust your
53:43
gut when it comes to,
53:44
like, dealing with your
53:45
team and ask for advice
53:47
and then make, make
53:49
something. Tailor, make
53:50
something for your group,
53:52
rather than try to fit in
53:54
the mould that been set
53:55
for you. Too often, I
53:56
just see people doing
53:57
what everyone's been
53:58
doing, never questioning
54:01
processes, setups, etc,
54:03
that are available to
54:05
them to go. Well, I know
54:06
this is available, but do
54:08
I like this? Do I even
54:09
want this right? Does it
54:10
make sense for me and for
54:12
my team? And I think that
54:14
just trying to fit the
54:16
mould and then not
54:17
succeeding is way worse
54:19
than just trying to
54:20
suggest other ways of
54:21
doing things. I
54:22
Mark Ackers: suppose one
54:23
of the things that your
54:24
work on then, and you've
54:25
spoke to me about before,
54:26
is giving them the
54:27
confidence to do that
54:28
flip the question, What's
54:29
one thing you wish SDR
54:30
managers would stop
54:31
doing? Well,
54:32
catherine olivier: one
54:32
thing is definitely
54:33
pushing for inputs rather
54:35
than caring about the
54:36
outcomes. I think there's
54:37
still way too many SDR
54:39
leaders out there,
54:40
despite all evidence to
54:42
the contrary, who are,
54:43
like, very proud, like,
54:44
Oh my God, my team sent
54:45
20,000 emails this week.
54:47
It was a great week. And
54:48
you go, really, was it
54:50
though? Like, how many
54:51
came back positive? What
54:53
did you book from that?
54:54
You know, where they're
54:54
like, Oh yeah, my team.
54:56
They were, they were,
54:56
they were on fire. They
54:58
all made like, 300 calls
54:59
today. It's like, Yeah,
55:00
but was that good? Did
55:02
they get anything from
55:03
that, right? So, so I
55:05
think a lot of people
55:07
hide behind vanity
55:08
metrics, if it makes
55:09
sense, right? We've been
55:10
very busy putting loads
55:13
and and look at all the
55:14
numbers that we're that
55:15
we're throwing at it
55:17
without then actually
55:18
showing what gets out of
55:20
that. So care about the
55:22
outcomes. First dashboard
55:24
Mark Ackers: managers.
55:25
The easiest thing to do
55:26
is to build a dashboard
55:28
with loads of widgets and
55:30
gives you numbers. The
55:31
hard thing to do, sit
55:33
look at the emails,
55:34
listen to the calls,
55:36
check the responses and
55:38
the quality, because that
55:39
takes time, and I think
55:40
it's such a true point.
55:41
Here's the thing that's
55:42
been a problem the whole
55:43
time I've known the world
55:45
of sales and sales
55:46
dashboard managers. And I
55:47
think it's great that you
55:48
know, you mentioned some
55:49
tools earlier on, tools
55:50
out there that that help
55:51
you get better insight
55:53
into into what's going
55:54
on. Catherine, I have
55:55
loved our time together
55:55
this. This has been a
55:56
great episode. I feel
55:57
like we've gone into so
55:58
many different little
55:59
pockets of areas that
56:00
I've really enjoyed. I
56:01
just want to say thank
56:02
you for coming on telling
56:04
us how you went from
56:05
being crap at sales to
56:06
the incredible leader you
56:07
are at cognism today.
56:09
Delighted that we get to
56:10
work together as
56:11
customers of each other,
56:12
and want to thank you for
56:13
coming on the podcast.
56:14
And I'll come down to
56:15
your offices again soon,
56:16
and we'll go and check
56:17
out those strawberries at
56:18
Borough Market. Thanks
56:19
for coming on. It was a
56:20
pleasure. Take part. You.