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Leading Differently Together | "Apostles" With Donavan Friesen · Neighbourly: Real Stories of Care and Community

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An apostle by yourself and you have everyone around you that are pastoral
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and they're they're prophetic, they're all those things. They're like, no. You can't. You
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shouldn't stop. And it's because You've never done it that way.
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Yeah. What does loving your
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neighbor actually look like? This is Journey with
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Care, where curious Canadians get inspired to love others
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well through real life stories and honest conversations.
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Hey, curious sojourners. We're continuing in our new series leading
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differently together. I'm so glad you're on this journey with me as we meet
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up with some pretty fascinating Canadians who are living in their sweet
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spots and making an impact. Ephesians 411
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and 12 says god gives some to be apostles, prophets,
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evangelists, shepherds, and teachers to equip the saints for the
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work of the ministry and for building up the body of Christ.
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But honestly, what does that look like in Canada? You're gonna have to listen to
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find out. And today, we're gonna get really curious about apostleship.
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I'm your host, Wendy Park, joined by producer, Johan Hinrichs.
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And in studio today, we have a special guest from Winnipeg, Manitoba
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on Treaty One territory, pastor Donovan Friesen.
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Welcome to the podcast. Hey. Thank you for having me. Good to be here. It's
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so good to have you. I was looking forward to having this conversation. We go
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back a little ways, back in Bible school days. Do you remember that?
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Yeah. Briefly, I think I actually was a roommate
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with your fiance at the time, now wife. That's right. I just came back from
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Central America. This was my landing space. And, Yeah. I do
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remember your zeal for for God and for
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ministry, and you guys were getting married, and you
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were setting out for what I thought was a
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dynamic marriage and ministry future.
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And here you are. We won't say how many years later. It's a
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few. It's a few. Fill me in a little bit on on that gap.
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Where has God led you? Yeah. So I left Bible College, got married,
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was working and just establishing a home, and we were a volunteer youth pastoring in
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a church plant that my dad had done. So the church plant was going really
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well, and then the place that I was working was for my uncle.
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He got diagnosed with cancer, and he wasn't well. So I was like, that's no
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problem. You don't need to provide work. We can find something. It's no no big
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deal. We ended up moving up to a camp, for a year, and we
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wanted to discern, are we, like, called to work with young people or work
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with the church, or are we just doing it because the pastor's kid and
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you were kinda, like, charismatic in personality, so you're just the right fit?
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And we didn't make it very many months at camp before we're like, oh, man.
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We know that this is what we gotta commit our lives to. So we stayed
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for a year, came back, went to university while doing
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youth work and church work on the elder team or the deacon team, I
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guess, at the time. And so we were working in that front, and a life
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of ministry was just our lives. I wasn't getting paid by the church. I ended
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up buying a small business so that I would have more flexibility and time to
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build the kingdom, to work with youth, to work with parents. That led to
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all sorts of things. We did, from worship ministry. I worked in a in a
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private Christian school as a youth pastor in the school,
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which taught me lots on counseling, on 1 on ones, on discipleship.
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That led us to a large church in a different city close by.
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We were there for 11 years. Lots of formative things on, like, how
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to study the word, bearing fruit for the long haul. How do you
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initiate and move forward to bring transformation within
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community outside of the walls of the church? And then we came here
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to Winnipeg 8 years ago, I guess,
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and took over a work. My dad had planted the church that we're in right
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now. It was fledgling. It was kind of at its last leg. And do
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we close the doors or not? And we knew we were coming back to Winnipeg
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for a long time. And so we ended up coming. God made it clear on
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the time. And so we came here 8 years ago and have the great
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joy of leading this beautiful congregation in Winnipeg. That's awesome. And there,
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my friends, is a resume of a good person with, some
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apostleship baked in there. I don't know if that
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was sort of in your your peripheral heading into
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ministry. However, you have touched bases in a lot of things.
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You you weren't stuck into one thing. This is what I'm gonna do. You always
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saw a little bit over the fence, and and you were willing to try
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new things. Yeah. I think that's probably, like, probably one of the
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most significant things is not being satisfied, but being content.
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Seeing that something has to change. Like, when I worked in the school, I was,
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like, I love it. Like, we experienced the start or, I'd say,
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like, a revival. Like, God moved in profound ways that I didn't know
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was even possible ever and worked in this way. And
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so there's something for me, and then people would ask, like, are you ever gonna
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leave? And I'm like, well, I won't leave unless and there was, like,
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2 places that if they would call, I would have been needed to go to.
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But I didn't apply. There weren't job opportunities, But I I didn't wanna
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work with just youth, and then they hit 18 or they graduate, and
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then you just send them off on their own. I'm like, there has to be
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more. And from early, I wanted to work birth to death. I wanted
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to walk with families, with people, through marriages, through birth,
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through funerals. I just the whole thing, I felt discipleship must be
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there. And then we just experimented lots. Like, we moved when we moved to the
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other city, we bought a home, but I brought six young
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adult guys from the school that I'd worked at to come and live in
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our home with us. And that led to a few more. And over 11 years,
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I don't know, we've had 60 or 70 different people live with us, in our
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home because we felt like true discipleship must be more than just
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teaching from the pulpit or once a week you meet someone. We needed
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to, like, have them in our lives, have every area of our lives
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exposed. What does a godly home look like? What does a marriage where they love
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Jesus? What does that look like? How do we parent our own children plus these
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other children that are now kind of adopted into our clan? So these are all
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parts of the the journey. Yeah. And I sense it's not out of, yeah, what
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you said is discontentment or anxious move on to the next
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thing quickly, like, be busy bodies. But I sense this sense
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of curiosity bringing things back to its roots Yeah. To the original
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intent of community. What does it mean? Can you share a little bit of
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your experience perhaps bringing and expanding
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your home in in very unprecedented ways? It's it's not
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normal, in Canada to do what you did or or even
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maybe share a little bit of your experience at the high school and what happened
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there Wendi you thought outside the box. You you weren't just there to be a
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chaplain and and do kind of things business as usual. You were you were
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striving for something different, not for uniqueness sake Yep. But you were looking for
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something different. Can you share a little bit of those examples so we we can
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have a taste of that? Yeah. So maturity has been
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probably a driving force for me most of my life. How do we help
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people grow to be compelled by the love
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of Christ in everything that we do? So I wasn't looking for what's
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creative, what's a new way to do something. It's like, I see
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something that's lacking. It's like Paul is described as
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an apostle who's like an expert builder or
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or a wise builder, not built upon anything other than the foundation
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of Christ, but he's a builder, and then there's others that are gonna build on
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him and build on him. And that's sort of a, like, a premise of the
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apostolic in nature. So it's like looking and going, okay. I see
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all these broken homes that kids are coming from. Well, how do we help
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change the mentality, the way that they live? How do how do we help change
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it? Well, the best way that I could see is invite them in. Now that's
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very that's very biblical, but I would tell people, don't
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have a community home. It's like, don't do it. It's not easy.
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Not easy, and everything is exposed. So don't don't
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just do it. Make sure the Lord is showing you, but it's good
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for you because you have to be humble. Your life is
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exposed. So in the school, I I was like, okay. How do we help kids
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have faith? High school kids are not really supposed to. They're supposed to, have
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difficulty and trouble and be a little bit rebellious and hope that they make it
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at the end is the narrative I was taught. I was like, it can't be
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that way. So all I knew is I would read the Bible and be like,
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you gotta pray. And I wanted to learn how to pray more, so we just
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started gathering kids to pray. And we would meet in the morning, just a few
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of us, have a guitar in my office, like, 7 AM. We get an
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hour. Came. Yeah. We probably had a half a dozen. That's good. And
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then year 2, a little bit more. And then year 3, the well
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opened. And we would have 60, 70, 80 kids.
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At 5 in the morning, high school kids and myself were driving all over the
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city to pick up kids to come to pray. Then we'd meet at 6,
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and then teachers would come, then a custodian would come. And then, I remember this
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one time a young man came who was, like, the furthest from God, and
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he brought drugs. And he just came early in the morning, which high school kids
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should not wanna come early, but Jesus was with us. His his
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presence, his Spirit was there, and he just brought drugs and said, I'm now done.
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I wanna follow and live for God. And this was like, what is happening?
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Every spare, after school, before school, we just we always came
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together. We brought another person, and we just did ministry in
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the school. It was it was profound. It really changed me. Wow. And
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we would've said this is, like, revival for us. Sure. And then how do you
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end it? Which is why 6 of the guys moved with us, many different ones
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came at different points to be with us, trying to learn, how are we
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gonna disciple well? How do we help people get to maturity? How do you
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have a Paul and Timothy? Yeah. What does that look like? And these were things
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we were attempting to navigate to get answers to, and I didn't even
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know that the apostolic or the fivefold was a thing. I I I Right.
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That that was not in any bit of the teaching I grew up in. We're
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in a church planting family. This was not in my dad's purview.
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So I just said no. And we didn't go to conferences. We just there
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was so much ministry to do today. Let's just do it. I'm
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going to parties where there's kids to try to lead them to Jesus. We're doing
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street ministry wherever we could. We're finding kids in schools, and parents are
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calling, and that was sort of our lives or just how do we help people
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know Jesus deeply and intimately. And you're willing to sit with the problem long
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enough and stay up at night thinking, hey. How can we
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work through this? Rather than sometime we can be conflict avoidant
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and go to the happy, happy Jesus, clappy kind of a thing.
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Then there's there's room for all of that, but we need to sit
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with the problems long enough to get creative with what is
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God asking of us. I know I didn't know about the apostolic really either.
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It wasn't something that was part of my vocabulary and understanding
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growing up. And it was only after starting Care Impact
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that we realized, oh, this is a thing. Yeah. Right. And this is just a
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wiring, a DNA, a a sort of a a way a a
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lens of looking at it that is so needed in the church. And there's
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a variety of ways this is expressed. Like, it's unlimited. Yeah.
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But something that you said just now, stuck out to me
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that year 3 is when you saw a lot of, like,
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huge movement and growth. It was busting out. But it took year
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1 and 2 when there was 6 people. And when you were tired at 5
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in the morning, you would rather have slept in. For sure. There was no results.
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But one of the things that stuck out with me is
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that apostolic giftings, you do it
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anyway, and it takes risk. Yeah. And it takes guts. And maybe it
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would never go past 5 people, but you do it anyway.
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Yeah. And you learn through it, and you say, k. Where is it god leading
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me through this? There's always a journey. It's not a destination.
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I think that's profound. Tell me a little bit. What is it like in
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year 1 and 2 and, like, metaphorically, in all of the things that
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you've started or gotten involved with Wendi you don't see the
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results right away and not everybody's giving you the affirmation? They can't even envision
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that yet. Yeah. I think that's one of the one of the hardest
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parts of having a measure of an apostolic gift,
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which is you're often front running. You're you're leading
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something, and it doesn't look the same. And so there's
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there's few that would be, like, early adopters to be like, yeah.
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We can do it. Let's run. There's few that are like that. Most
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are giving you warning. You shouldn't do it, and so you
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question all these things. For me, it was in this time that I learned
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how God spoke. I learned that he did speak. I didn't know. I didn't believe
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that he didn't speak. I just thought on a very rare occasion, would he
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speak. And so the intimate place became so critically important
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for me. I gotta hear from him. And what does this look like? And he
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early on, he had to deal with me. I remember I was on the worship
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team. I was a percussionist or a drummer, and then we had lots of drummers
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at our little fledgling church. And they're like, we need a guitar player. I'm like,
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well, they're a guitar. And I just pick it up, and you're just gonna give
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it a whirl. But I was never gonna sing because I was told my whole
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life I had a unique voice, which to me was like that. And
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so I remember one day, the person leading worship
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didn't show, and they're like, Donovan, you have to lead. I'm like, I can't lead.
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And so I went outside, and it's brand new in hearing god. I went outside,
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and I was like I'm crying. I'm like, god, I can't do it. Like like,
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people are gonna think my voice is terrible. It's not good. And I just felt
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the spirit was, like, like, what's the worst case? They never ask you again? So
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so then you're in the same spot you are right now. The best case is
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you you find out that you can take people into the throne room, like, into
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Right. The presence of God. And you're a worshiper, so, like,
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bring people to worship me. Yeah. And it was, like, worst case. I was
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like, And that's, like, Donovan, why are you leading anyway? Are you
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leading so that, like, everyone loves you? Everyone wants
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to be with you? Are you leading because I'm asking you to? Right. And it
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was just like this shift, and I was like, okay. And it was the
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same thing here. You come, and you're preaching, and the church
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here grew really quickly at the beginning. And then
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I remember I'd come to church, and it's, like, 9 o'clock in the morning. I'd
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sit down on my chair. I'd always sit in the front because I didn't wanna
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see who was coming. And I'd sit in the front. I'm like and I look
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back at, like, 902. I'm like, nobody's here. The novelty's worn
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off. And the spirit was like, Donovan, like, did I call you to do
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it to pack a place, or did I ask you to just to be obedient?
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Right. It's like, oh, yeah, god. And it there's a shift, and
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then it didn't matter. Here on in, it doesn't matter. I'm just I know I'm
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a risk taker. I'm happy to walk down that road. I typically
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now am like, I just know if something is going to
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work or not. It's Not in your gut. Yeah. I'm I'm a builder. I know
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that. I'm like, people are like, it's not gonna work. I'm like, this one's gonna
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work. I I just know. It's like, how do you know? It's like, I
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don't, but the spirit will testify. Like and I'm like, and
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if it doesn't work because we've done I've done things that didn't work
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well. And it's, like, okay. Because I'm like, like you said, okay, God. I wanna
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learn. What were you showing me? What was happening? Was this
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you? Was I getting overly zealous and excited? And I just want to
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learn. And so I'm okay with failing, and I can admit
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failure, and I think that's been the gift for me all the way through.
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Well and I think there should be permission within the church to exercise things
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that we don't even know if we're good at or we'll ever do again. For
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sure. But I just sat in some of your teachings here this morning, and our
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family has been blessed by your pastoral team and your teachings,
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and you just identified one of the 5 things with discipleship
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globally distinctive is dying to self. And I think part of the
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apostolic gifting, dying to self is getting over ourselves
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and putting ourselves out there anyway, because it's not about us.
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It's not about our agenda or a big logo or a thing
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that we're doing, but we believe in this cause or this this need
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so much. We there's a hunger Yeah. About that that will
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compel you forward. But I'm just curious. In your formational
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years, even before you knew about the apostolic giftings and you were walking in
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it and growing in it, were there people or things in your life
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that nurtured that, that that helped you? Maybe others that
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were had that gifting that would mentor you
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or perhaps a balance within the other giftings that
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we've been talking about that helped strengthen some
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of that in you? Yeah. So I think maybe something to to
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highlight to answer that is so, again, I didn't know
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that was going on. I I'm a question asker. I'd be in, like,
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little church plant meetings, and we're trying to discuss things. I'm like, well, what about
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this? And what about this? And you kinda feel crazy because people like, no. No.
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You can't do that. But today, we're doing it. But I was already asking questions
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when I was, like, 17, 18, 19. I was like, no. There's there's something off.
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Like, this doesn't make sense. And why do we do this? Is it tradition, or
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or what is it? So there's these things that are going on. And so you
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sort of think, well, maybe I'm just maybe I'm just kind of crazy. Like, maybe
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I maybe I'm wrong. So you you find people, and you
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just ask and you dig. Not about, am I crazy? Just like, what do you
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think about this, and how does this work? And people who, it appeared to
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me, that were really fruitful in ministry, like, were so inspirational.
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Like, yeah, of course, Donavan. We can do that. And anyone that was, like,
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a professional Christian, I'll use that language, they were, like, the biggest
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naysayers. I was, like, oh, interesting. So
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this was going on. And now flipping back into Ephesians 4,
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Jesus gives these gifts to the church, apostle, prophet, evangelist,
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shepherd, teacher. It's a gift that's given by Jesus
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himself for the church. So from early on, these are things that are going on,
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and I recognize that it's like, oh, it's not a special gift to make
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it better than. It's just Right. God needs some that are gonna do the work
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of the equipping of the saints in the fivefold ministry that way. And
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then when it comes to elders, those that are gonna lead a congregation or lead
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a church, it's the apostle. The apostles gather,
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and they pray and they fast and then they lay hands on for the work
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of an elder. Elders are appointed by Mhmm. Apostles
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scripturally. So I'm like, oh, hang on a second. So I think
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that's something where, early on, people would have just looked and seen
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it. And then as I was moving into circles where there was, you know,
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prophetic words, I remember being 18 at a conference, didn't know about prophetic
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words. A dear friend of mine today didn't know them then. He just
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out of the crowd, he was, like, pointed at me and said,
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you have a calling into full time ministry. Mhmm. I've seen this upon you. And
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I was like, oh, fascinating. Because my whole life, I just wanted to
18:13
be full time pastor. I just Wow. I wanted to be a minister from when
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I was a child. Grade 4. And everywhere that I would
18:20
go, God affirmed my prophetic voices.
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People would come up. We'd be in a prayer meeting. I'd go to a conference.
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I'd go here, and I was like, God it's like I have this, like, little
18:30
magnet that people just come up. It's like, God has a word for you. Like,
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out of the blue, all over, all it was from the Lord was just affirmation
18:36
and helping me see that he called me for something specific, and I needed to
18:40
fulfill that. Now he he calls us. He gives us each a role within the
18:44
body of Christ, but he's helping me to see it. I needed, like, a 100
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Yeah. Prophetic words. I needed, like, a 100 people of
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the faith to remind, to say, I see this in you. Do you see this?
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And I'm like, I'm just, like, not that smart. I'm just a little
18:58
kid. I'm just kinda doing my thing. I just love Jesus. That's all I got.
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Like, and God affirmed building,
19:05
creating, developing, teaching, reminding,
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and it's like, okay. Now let's do it. And so that's kind of the
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path. That's beautiful because I I think it does
19:17
require maturity, a journeying through that affirmation. It's
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not like a talent search. Yeah. That, oh, this guy's charismatic,
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and therefore, there can be a lot of flops and lack of maturity,
19:28
lack of roots being born into. But letting yourself be
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hungry. I I think that's what I'm hearing also is that there's a hunger For
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sure. To hear from God, a hunger to to know God, and to
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not for your, like, me, myself, and I, Jesus, my boyfriend, but, lord,
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how you've you've impacted me or you've given me this heart for
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people, but how do I I live that out? Yeah.
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It's affirmed within the body of Christ and in experiences
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too. I think of times where I've done things and it
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hasn't been my beautiful show. Yeah. But have
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I learned from that? Have I learned to dive to self and be
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okay with critiques and learn from it?
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Not just find people that like your ideas. Because
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that that also can be misleading as well. Right? Yeah. There are times
20:17
we can come up with grand ideas. Like, we're gonna get
20:21
the bouncy castle of bouncy castle events, and we're gonna transform our
20:24
community when god is asking us to pray or do something simple that
20:28
is so unseen. And there is fruit. Yep. And,
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I just would like to comment too, there is fruit in the Anchor Pointe
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church that you're pastoring. And one of the things that I appreciate
20:40
about your leadership style is that, yes, you lead
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with vision and the what ifs, and you plant that, and you're actually rising that
20:47
within there. You're not the only one with apostolic, but you're like,
20:51
it resonates with others. Mhmm. But you're also delegating and
20:54
releasing. Releasing people into things that you could have
20:58
control over. The CEO model would say, like,
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everything the the buck stops with you. But tell me a little bit
21:05
about what that journey's like to have a pastoral heart as
21:09
well and to want it so bad for this community and
21:13
yet release it into not just
21:17
other professional pastors or professional Christians, but
21:20
fledglings in Christ that you're discipling into and releasing things
21:24
into their hands. What's that been like? Yeah. Wendy, that's a
21:28
that's a big challenge because there's there's a responsibility
21:31
or an obligation biblically for the
21:35
elders, the leaders of the church, to give extraordinary care. Yep.
21:39
And so you're you're working on that front. Our church just happened to
21:42
grow quite quickly. So it's like you're trying to keep up with pastoral care, then
21:46
there's people dying, then there's weddings happening, then you're trying to hire a staff, but
21:50
you don't and you're finding the space and you're and you're trying to release. So
21:54
then I'd have staff say, Donovan, like, you can give us more. Like, you can
21:57
you can give us pastoral care. I'm like, actually actually, I
22:00
can't. Right. Because if I just if I just give it to you,
22:04
you'll meet with someone for, like, 30 minutes and they'll walk away. Because they're they're
22:08
not looking just for someone. They're they're they're looking for
22:12
someone who can help them to be transformed, to know Christ, to
22:16
to walk there. Right. And so if you wanna help me
22:19
engage in knowing the congregation and giving care to them Yeah. So they
22:23
start coming to you because they trust you. They love you, and
22:27
that would be an elder in a church, would be someone like that. But
22:31
I I didn't know. I you're true. Not just handing things off, but
22:35
you sat with that problem, and you created a pathway
22:39
for maturity. Can you talk about that? Yeah. This is this is the
22:42
part. So we Ephesians 4 being the the
22:46
passage that we're on here. So we early on, I was like, okay.
22:50
We gotta train in these areas. Like, I I think I think
22:53
everyone in the church probably has a bent towards like, Jesus is all of the
22:57
5. But not everyone is it. But, like, the small a, the small p, the
23:01
small s. Like, everyone has these, I think, and I think we could
23:04
do personality types based on the fivefold ministry. And so
23:08
we thought, okay. If everyone probably has a bent towards the pastoral
23:12
or towards teaching or towards the apostolic or towards, like,
23:16
evangelism or the prophetic, we have these things, and I think everyone was there. So
23:19
the strategy that we felt the Lord had, and he confirmed it through the prophetic,
23:23
was, okay. We're gonna train in this area. So today
23:27
was journey 1, the discipleship path that God gave us on what to
23:30
do, and it's almost exclusive on learning how to love each other, learning
23:34
how to enter into relationship, to be deep, because we see that as one of
23:37
the greatest lacks in our culture today. Oh, the relational poverty
23:41
is is in the church and within our society. It's our
23:45
number one For sure. And so the church has an obligation
23:49
to how do we make the world more like heaven? So that's, I think, why
23:52
the Lord would lead us there. And then the next path was we're teaching in
23:55
the 4 we don't do the apostolic. That's that'll come at some point, but
23:59
the other 4, we're doing those. And so we're making it just a part of
24:03
the church. So we teach prophetic, and we have a prayer room that's open every
24:06
Friday night. And then people will come, and they'll practice, and they'll teach, and people
24:10
will receive. And we do this with the teaching, and then they get to teach
24:13
in the pulpit, and they get to share all summer long. And evangelism,
24:16
we're teaching, and we're going out, and we're trying to find the gifts
24:20
that people have to compel them. And the theory is,
24:24
like, it says in there, until they reach the fullness or until they become mature
24:28
Mhmm. And complete, not lacking anything, I think if we can find
24:32
what the gifts are, we can find what the propensity is, then people
24:36
can begin to bear some fruitfulness. And when you begin to bear
24:39
fruit in ministering to people and having their lives changed,
24:43
it is so addicting. Yeah. And then people live their lives, and
24:47
then the kingdom of heaven moves forward because people are compelled by
24:50
Christ in them, not compelled by a pastor trying to convince
24:54
them Right. That they should go and do something so that Christianity could
24:58
be a movement again, not a nice idea or a nice
25:02
organization. It's an actual organism that moves and not dependent upon
25:05
just one. Describing some structure and some intentionality,
25:10
absolutely, and being good stewards of the flock and the
25:13
word of God and all of those things. At the same time, giving permission that
25:17
you're not so dependent on the structure to bring
25:21
people into professional Christian, but the Holy Spirit to
25:24
minister. Right. So that you're I see it as a creating an
25:28
appetite for more and to to allow the Holy Spirit to
25:32
work in conjunction. That's how the Holy Spirit works. It's cocreating, right
25:35
Right. Totally. With God. And that's and that's the growth of the church. And and
25:39
I think one of the things with apostolic ministries and those with that
25:43
that bent, they have a propensity to speak
25:46
courage into those spaces that other people may not voice.
25:49
And perhaps not always a charisma, that might be more of a
25:53
personality thing, but a bit of a a magnetism to be brave.
25:57
Yeah. And I think I see that within church leaders. Like, I've I used to
26:01
get so frustrated with pastors that just existed in their church for a long
26:05
time. And then you meet with them. They're inspired. They
26:09
hear one thing in your church. And because someone has gone ahead of them
26:12
and done it and bore some some fruitfulness in it, they're like,
26:16
oh. And they can give it a whirl. And I used to be frustrated. Like,
26:19
why don't you just ask the Lord about it? Then I realized, no. Not everyone's
26:22
a builder. Like, that my my job is I get to
26:26
experiment and try. The congregation is in to go on the adventure with
26:30
me, and we're gonna go try it Yeah. And try to release and get rid
26:34
of so we can commit more of our time to, like, the ministry of prayer
26:37
and the word and the the building. I think that's one of the key things
26:41
for me. Yeah. So looking that way, and then we see a pastor do it,
26:43
and you're like, oh, this is maybe connected to an apostolic where it's like
26:47
you're meeting with other church leaders. They are not just like, I wanna do what
26:51
you're doing, but they're inspired. They have courage.
26:54
They recognize, oh, there's something here. There's someone else who's done it. I
26:58
wanna give it a whirl. And I think we see that testament all throughout,
27:02
scripture as well. But to be honest, I I've worked with a lot of churches
27:06
and a lot of pastors, and I I don't have that pastoral heart naturally. It
27:10
can drain me sometimes. I lean on people that have that gifting. But what I
27:13
often find in my own church experience that the apostolic isn't
27:17
necessarily embraced in the same way. You're a bit
27:21
of a unicorn pastor in the sense of having that apostolic vision
27:25
to try to risk. It really has to be rooted in a secure attachment with
27:29
God and community to be able to lead in a a congregational
27:32
way. But I wonder, do you have any advice for people
27:36
that have that small a apostolic or they
27:40
they've been seeing that hearing that that affirmation like you were
27:43
describing earlier, but really not finding their
27:47
place within the body of Christ. Because sometimes the apostolic, the prophetic, the
27:51
evangelists sometimes are let's face it. That's where we get
27:55
nonprofits. That's where we get people starting great ministries
27:58
and businesses and entrepreneurial type
28:02
endeavors, and that's all okay. However, within the
28:05
church, there's not necessarily a place for that. Can you speak to
28:09
those that are trying to find their place in the body of Christ?
28:13
Yeah. Specifically in the area of the apostolic. It's
28:16
for sure, it's a lonely place. And then you hear things like we just talked
28:20
about, like, you need balance. You don't want just people to speak and
28:24
affirm you and all of your ideas. But on the flip side of
28:28
that is you you don't want that, but you want to find other
28:31
people that are apostolic in nature. And when you have
28:35
the apostles together, there's movement. If you're an apostle by yourself
28:39
and you have everyone around you that are pastoral and they're they're prophetic. They're all
28:43
those things. They're like, no. You can't. You shouldn't stop. And
28:47
it's because We've never done it that way. Yeah. But and and it's it's
28:51
all well intended. Absolutely. But it's not movement, and apostles
28:55
must have they they just must have movement. Like can't stop.
28:58
No. They they just must. They're going into new territory, most apostles. I think
29:02
there's some exceptions like John who had was an apostle of, like,
29:06
a message of, like, you need to stay close to Jesus. But he was a
29:09
disruptor. He was a disruptor. There was a movement even there. There there's, like, that
29:13
holy disruption. Yeah. They're not trying to be, like, disturbers
29:17
for the sake of it if they're healthy. Yep. However, there is a
29:21
disruption. Yeah. So I think when you find people who are different than
29:24
you, is good, but to find a few
29:28
apostolic people, people who are like that to, like,
29:32
bounce off, not yes people, but just like, what do you think? I
29:35
had this idea, and I have many of these that I now get together with.
29:39
I'm like, okay. I have I have this idea of what I think we need
29:42
to do. It's gonna solve this problem in society or in the church.
29:46
So, like, this is what I think the lord is saying, but I need I
29:48
need to know. Like, am I missing something? What do you see? And when I'm
29:52
together with apostolic type people, it is, like, electric. Because we don't have
29:56
to, like You can change the world over 1 cup of coffee. Yeah. You you
29:59
don't need to, like, appease each other. Right. You can fight each other. Oh, absolutely.
30:03
You can go hard, but you're looking, like, towards
30:07
Jesus and building upon that foundation. So I think that's why the
30:11
apostolic, their job is bringing balance. If you could have an
30:14
elder, which is a lot of our our our pastors and churches are elders
30:18
who are shepherds or who are teachers, the
30:21
apostolic would come in and be, like, hang on a second. It's not just shepherding.
30:25
Like, the there there's more that Jesus has for your congregation. They help to
30:29
see and bring balance or alignment. I think because the
30:33
apostolic has been removed almost exclusively from the church, I
30:37
think we lack balance. We lack, like, making sure it's
30:40
not just prophetic. It's not just shepherding. It's not just evangelism. It's we're bringing
30:44
this together to have balance that we can actually move
30:48
and give care and have good teaching and hear from the lord and have the
30:52
gifts of the spirit. They're all working together. Yeah. And
30:56
so maybe from that and to conclude here, one of the the things that I'm
31:00
hearing is that if you have people with
31:03
apostolic giftings that sort of resonate with some of the things that we're talking,
31:07
obviously, everybody's a little different. They bring their uniquenesses, and God has
31:11
certain purposes for different individuals. But if you have those within your
31:15
congregation or in your family or in your your small group,
31:18
listen and be part of that. We welcome those voices Yeah. That
31:22
are different from ours, not just yes and amens, because we will have a
31:26
1000000 ideas, but we're still like, we're testing it out with the body of
31:29
Christ. Like, what sits well with you? And we need the pastoral. We need
31:33
the, evangelist. We need the the teacher, the
31:37
prophetic to to balance us, but save a
31:40
room at the table Yeah. For those with apostolic. Don't don't get
31:44
frustrated with us when we come up with new ideas because maybe that's
31:48
the next best thing for revival that we're all praying for.
31:51
We're all seeking the the edification and building up the church,
31:55
but sometimes we're feeling stuck. Get a small a
31:58
apostolic at your table. Yeah. You won't feel stuck even if it just
32:02
generates energy Yeah. In the room for for something new, the what
32:05
if. Yeah. I think that's a fantastic point. And I
32:09
think if we loved each other, if we actually learned how to love each other
32:12
well, then I'm like, Wendy, tell me. Like, what do you what do you see
32:15
when you look at this passage of scripture or this problem? Oh, John, what do
32:18
you what do you see in this threatening anymore. Right. Because you're you're trying to
32:22
discover the gifts all working together, and all of these
32:25
gifts are gifts that are grown, massaged, and mature
32:29
over time. And in community. It it has to be in community.
32:33
I think, may maybe in conclusion for myself, it's like when
32:37
Paul gives his life to Jesus, road to Damascus, and he has this encounter
32:40
and he's, like, changed from night and day, he's changed. Immediately,
32:44
he's he's in the temple and he's preaching. But he submits himself in
32:48
Antioch to the other apostolic leaders for
32:51
years until they approve that he's a fellow
32:55
apostle for the gospel. And I'm, like, I I just find that so
32:59
fascinating. He went and he found other apostolic people. He wasn't just
33:03
looking for elders. He was now going to, like, a council of sorts, to
33:07
the the apostles of Antioch to to submit himself. A spiritual
33:11
humility at a whole new level. It's not just going gangbuster. Correct.
33:14
Yeah. And I I think that's really important. We get to grow in it,
33:18
develop. He was growing in it for, like, 3 years in Antioch,
33:22
still operating in it. It's, like, still going, and he's building and
33:25
planting churches, but he's coming until they're like, okay.
33:29
Yeah. We see this in here, and we trust you. You're no longer murdering Christians.
33:33
That's pretty cool, Paul. Right? And he's leading people, and he's planting. It's I think
33:37
it's fantastic, but I think we have to be mindful. It's not to
33:40
idolize the apostolic. That's right. It's just a it's just a gift, and we
33:44
don't want everyone to be apostles or everyone to be prophets. That that would not
33:47
be good. We need some, and then we need people to do the work of
33:51
ministry every day in the lives, in the homes with people
33:54
loving and caring for them, and that becomes really critically important.
33:58
Well, thank you so much, Donovan, for taking the time to talk about
34:02
something that is a natural thing. And I just wanted to
34:06
thank you for exercising that here in Winnipeg and,
34:09
blessing our community. And I know the best is yet to come. And
34:13
that's how we lead differently together. So thank you so much. It was a joy.
34:16
Thanks for having me. Thank you
34:20
for joining another conversation on Journey with Care, where we
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