Latest / The Virtual Couch / Breaking Social Barriers: Enhancing Confidence with Autism Support - w/Karla Gragg and Sarah Bailey

Transcript

Breaking Social Barriers: Enhancing Confidence with Autism Support - w/Karla Gragg and Sarah Bailey · The Virtual Couch

0:00
Music.
0:21
Hey, everybody, welcome to The Virtual Couch. I am your host, Tony Overbay.
0:24
I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, a certified mindful habit coach,
0:27
writer, speaker, husband, father of four, and someone that is soon to go under
0:31
the knife. Surgery for the first time ever.
0:34
And I have been writing a lot and documenting that whole experience.
0:38
And when you're going through something big, I think for the very first time,
0:41
I cannot get enough content.
0:44
I'm watching all the YouTube videos about the particular surgery that I'm going to be getting.
0:48
And so I want to document my entire journey. So I'm going to be sharing more of that.
0:53
If any of you have had neck surgery, fusion, it sounds so dramatic,
0:56
spinal fusion. Anyway, reach out to me and I would love to hear your experiences.
1:01
I believe that the C5, 6 and 7 discs will be involved.
1:06
It's a very common procedure and the outcome seems to be pretty encouraging, but it's the unknown.
1:12
And I talk so often about fear of the unknown and I want certainty.
1:15
And there are neither of those. There is definitely fear of the unknown.
1:20
There is no certainty. But I'm really excited about this the more I look into it.
1:23
And boy, everything really is an opportunity to self-confront and grow.
1:26
But I digress. Thanks for joining me today.
1:29
Follow me on Instagram at virtual.couch or TikTok at virtualcouch.
1:34
And we've got a pretty steady pattern of Sunday evening live question and answers
1:38
with my daughter, Sydney or Mackie.
1:40
And then the replays of those are on my YouTube channel. And I highly encourage
1:43
you to go find those and subscribe. on the YouTube channel as well, if you don't mind.
1:47
And go to TonyOverbay.com and there you can sign up for the newsletter.
1:51
And if you have questions or comments about any episode here on the virtual
1:55
couch on waking up to narcissism, you name it, then submit them through the
1:58
contact form. And I would love to, I would love to address those.
2:01
So let me set the stage for today's episode.
2:04
20 years ago, when I first started as a therapist, autism wasn't something that
2:09
at least I did not see that people were talking about as much.
2:13
Occasionally I would hear about Asperger's syndrome or autism,
2:16
but they felt like distant concepts, things that affected other people somewhere else.
2:21
But over the years, something shifted and maybe it was my own awareness expanding
2:25
or maybe it was society's understanding evolving.
2:28
But suddenly I found myself meeting more and more people who would openly share
2:32
that they were high functioning autistic or on the autistic spectrum.
2:35
I remember clearly one of my early experiences that opened my eyes to autism in a very new way.
2:41
I was working with a teenage client who attended a school for students on the autism spectrum.
2:46
And one year they put on a production of Peter Pan and I became an impromptu
2:51
prop, my bald head serving as land when one of the students pointed their telescope
2:56
at me from their makeshift ship.
2:58
Now, what struck me wasn't the intended humor. I was grateful to be a participant,
3:01
but it was the genuine confusion on some of the students' faces as they looked over and looked at me.
3:07
There was a teacher standing beside me and the teacher whispered to me,
3:09
A lot of the students are very literal, so they're probably thinking,
3:12
that's not land. That's a guy. That's his bald head.
3:16
And that moment was pretty transformative for me because it wasn't about right
3:18
or wrong ways of thinking. It was about understanding different ways of experiencing the world.
3:23
So fast forward to today, and the landscape, I think, has changed dramatically.
3:26
You've got shows like Love on the Spectrum, which if you haven't watched that, I highly recommend it.
3:30
And they've helped normalize autism and our cultural conversations.
3:34
You've got public figures who are openly discussing their autism spectrum diagnoses.
3:37
And crucially, the medical understanding has evolved too.
3:41
Take ADHD, for example. You'll hear me say on this interview,
3:44
and I've said it before, that there is talk of ADHD potentially finding its
3:48
way onto the autism spectrum.
3:50
And I have not seen that that is actually the case.
3:54
Currently, it's not on the autism spectrum, but we know that these conditions now can coexist.
3:58
And that was something that wasn't even recognized in the diagnostic manuals just a decade or two ago.
4:05
But I think the most striking change is in the numbers. And as you'll hear in
4:08
today's interview, autism diagnosis have increased from 1 in 10,000 children
4:12
to 1 in 32 within a single generation.
4:15
And this isn't just statistics. That represents real people and real families
4:19
and real needs for support and particularly for understanding.
4:23
So that is why I am excited about today's guest, Sarah Bailey,
4:27
who is a longtime friend whose work I've admired for years. And she joins me
4:31
with her sister, Carla Craig.
4:32
And together, they are doing some groundbreaking work through their organization,
4:36
Breaking Social Barriers.
4:37
They're offering evidence-based programs that are specifically designed for
4:40
young adults on the autism spectrum.
4:42
And what's key about this is they're using UCLA's acclaimed peers treatment
4:46
program, and that's the only research-based method for helping young adults
4:49
with autism form and maintain friendships.
4:52
They're addressing one of the most crucial, but I think often overlooked aspects
4:56
of autism, social connection.
4:58
So whether you are somebody who identifies with autistic traits,
5:02
or you're formally diagnosed, or you simply want to better understand a condition
5:06
that's becoming increasingly prevalent in our society.
5:08
This conversation, I think, will offer a lot of insight into autism,
5:12
social skills, and the power of evidence-based support.
5:15
So with that said, let's get to the interview with Sarah and Carla.
5:21
Sarah and Carla, welcome to the virtual couch. How are you guys doing?
5:25
Great. Thanks for having us on, Tony. Yeah. So, Sarah, you sent the very nicest
5:29
text to me in the world because I follow you. We go way back.
5:32
Right. know our families know each other and then i think you
5:34
had posted on facebook about what you guys are doing together and
5:38
then it's funny because i i just thought man i wonder if sarah would be
5:40
open to talking about it and then you texted and did
5:43
you refer to me as uh oprah winfrey i thought this was very fun i did that i
5:48
felt like i had been contacted by oprah winfrey so that's that's funny the thing
5:53
is that i know tony from way back before tony was famous so okay all right i'm
6:00
gonna edit that part out or I'll isolate it. I don't know. We'll see. Yeah.
6:04
Okay, well, still, we're Tony fans at the Bailey House.
6:07
And as I'm with your kids, every one of your kids has performed,
6:11
and I would go to all the plays, and I just think that's amazing.
6:14
As a matter of fact, I just want a special shout out to your son,
6:16
Liam, who is one of the greatest, because I love Joseph and the Technicolor
6:19
Dreamcoat, and he played the Pharaoh, the Elvis character.
6:22
Yes. So I think he gets annoyed that when I do see him, I want him to talk like
6:26
that, and that was a long time ago. So forgive me, Liam.
6:31
Okay. Fair enough. Sarah, what I was really drawn toward is you were talking
6:35
about work that you do with Carla in the world of autism. And that's one of
6:40
those areas that I know that I don't know what I don't know.
6:43
And so I'm coming into this a little bit blind. I hear about autism often.
6:47
I work with clients who have high functioning autism and I work with parents who have autistic kids.
6:54
And I know that presents a certain challenge when it comes to even how the in
6:59
the relationship with the parents and their marital relationship and their relationship
7:02
with their kids, with other kids.
7:04
And so that's the angle I'm coming from. But I don't know enough about autism.
7:07
And so maybe, Sarah, if you want to tell me what you guys are up to, maybe introduce Carla.
7:12
And then you guys tell me what I don't know that I don't know about what you're
7:16
doing and about autism. And then I might jump in with some questions in a little bit.
7:20
Sure, sure. So Carla and I are sisters. oh i
7:23
didn't know this yeah that's very
7:26
cool now i get okay now i just have to look and try to tell okay all
7:30
right older younger who's the older sister who's the younger sister carla's seven years
7:32
younger than me oh wow okay yeah oh god i want some scoop maybe like after off
7:38
mic i would have stories about sarah okay oh fascinating yeah so well i'll let
7:44
carla tell how she got to working with children with autism because her story
7:50
is pretty fascinating okay and then.
7:53
And I, my road is kind of winding how I started working with children with autism,
7:58
my degrees in child life therapy.
8:00
And then I decided to homeschool my children.
8:04
And through homeschooling them, I ended up founding a learning center.
8:10
And the children that came to the learning center, many of them were autistic
8:15
or had social anxieties and the whole spectrum, really.
8:20
And so through working with these children, they had a safety net of friends when I had them.
8:27
They could come to our dances and our social activities. So they had a group
8:32
of friends. But when they left us, when they aged out, their parents often reported
8:36
that they were super lonely.
8:39
No one was texting or calling them anymore. And they didn't know how to go about getting friends.
8:45
Then I watched Love on the Spectrum. Have you ever watched that show, Tony? I have.
8:48
I love that show. And that's one of those funny ones that I love when something
8:51
gets brought into therapy often.
8:54
And that's one that sometimes I think of the, it's going to sound,
8:57
I don't know if capitalistic is the right word, but the amount of money that
9:00
I've made on talking about things like Dungeons and Dragons.
9:02
I know more about that than I ever thought I would, but I have enjoyed learning
9:06
when people bring in the love on the spectrum talk.
9:09
So that's interesting. Yeah, I do. I've enjoyed that. Yeah.
9:12
So when I saw that show, I thought, I have a skill set from working for 14 years
9:17
with children on the spectrum.
9:19
And I wanted somehow to work with young adults.
9:23
And it's taken me a while to figure that out.
9:26
And Carla and I joined forces to work on that. So that's how I started on this journey. Okay.
9:34
So then enter Carla into the scene. And Sarah, I know living in the area that
9:38
you developed that, it was love of learning, right?
9:41
I heard of that so many times.
9:43
And that's where then I would name drop you as well. I know Sarah Bailey,
9:47
because that helped a lot of people.
9:49
You have a great reputation for the work that you do. Yeah. Thank you.
9:53
Yeah. All right. So then Carla, what's your background? Hi, I'm Carla,
9:57
and I would brag about Sarah as well.
10:01
And I got into special education,
10:06
got my master's in education, and then spearheaded a program in a small town
10:11
to work with young adults on the spectrum and other intellectual disabilities
10:16
to get them into the community, community access.
10:19
And my main goal was to get them a job.
10:23
That would give them the self-esteem they need the
10:26
connection they need and i completely
10:29
failed i could not make progress and so
10:33
i did a sidestep knowing that social
10:36
skills would help get in the community get
10:39
them jobs get them connections and i
10:42
went about to create my own curriculum to do this and as i was doing that and
10:48
researching that's where i came across dr largeson's work who makes an appearance
10:54
on live on the spectrum by the way okay okay and she um runs the peers program at ucla.
11:02
And created the only evidence-based curriculum to teach young adults on the
11:08
autism spectrum social skills.
11:11
And by young adult, you guys have both mentioned that. What's the age range of a young adult?
11:15
We're targeting 18 to 35 is what we feel like we can help.
11:20
Okay. So a lot of people that I work with struggle with diagnosing their kids with anything really.
11:27
And actually last night on one of the lives I did, we talked a lot about diagnosis
11:31
and my daughter and I were talking about there are certain things that can feel
11:34
like a unfair diagnosis or the diagnosis brings with a certain amount of judgment.
11:39
But then we were talking about with other things, the diagnosis brings help
11:42
and it brings resources.
11:44
So I don't know, do either of you have thoughts on that or how old would one
11:48
start to look for a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder? And then how do you go about that?
11:53
Well, I was listening to live last night, Tony, with autism.
11:59
Not that that's what you do, but I have a daughter that I think might be on
12:04
the spectrum and she would not want to have that label and she might want it
12:09
later and it might benefit her later.
12:11
It might benefit her now, but she's not ready.
12:15
14 and wants to fit in to school and be normal.
12:19
Yeah normal right and but
12:24
again referencing love on the spectrum we have a
12:26
character that said once she got her diagnosis she felt
12:30
finally a human being yeah i appreciate
12:33
you meeting your daughter where she's at the therapist in me always thinks that's
12:37
the right way to do it but then i can still have my own opinions my daughter
12:41
sydney has recently been diagnosed with adhd is medicated and says it's changed
12:45
her life but then let's say when i was trying to bring awareness to it when
12:48
i got my diagnosis 10 years ago in my mid-40s,
12:51
that was the last thing that she wanted was to hear that there was,
12:55
you need to do this thing.
12:57
And so, I know that that can be a fine line. And a fine line is that it can
13:00
be difficult for a parent to navigate, I would imagine.
13:04
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, then, I don't know, do you have any advice to someone
13:09
that then is listening now?
13:10
And then we'll jump back into 18 to 35, but who may feel like their child shows,
13:15
and what's even the right way to say this autistic traits or tendencies
13:18
i think it's
13:21
hard for parents to recognize them because they just
13:24
view that as their child oh yeah okay right
13:27
that's just what johnny does right so the hand flapping or yeah um the spinning
13:33
or whatever else that's just johnny so sometimes parents just don't recognize
13:37
it and it takes an outside source to show that that behavior may be on the spectrum
13:42
and i like that you say it may be so something to make note of.
13:47
Okay. All right. So, back to your journey, Carla. So, you find this peers,
13:51
so an evidence-based model to work with young adults?
13:55
Yes. Okay. She has since done programs for younger, but she started with young
14:00
adults because there's a gap there.
14:02
After you age out of the school system at 18 or 22, it's a cliff,
14:07
as Sarah experienced at her private school. And so I failed at getting them
14:12
jobs and sidestepped to social skills and found Dr.
14:17
Largeson's work at UCLA and was able to go train with her and her staff to learn
14:22
her work, to learn her curriculum.
14:25
And now I'm certified to teach it. Okay. And what is that? If you had to give
14:30
an overview of what is different about Dr. Largeson's work, what would that be?
14:34
Sure. Yes. Sarah was going to go over that more specifically,
14:37
but the way it looks is you're in a small group.
14:41
It's group therapy and it's behavioral intervention.
14:45
And you have these concrete rules and steps that socially successful people do.
14:52
So that's the big difference. A lot of times people are told,
14:56
just go say hi, go introduce yourself.
14:59
And that is not what socially successful people are doing.
15:02
Okay. I like that you're pointing out the difference. And can I ask,
15:05
it might be a pretty naive question about this in general, maybe autism in general,
15:09
is I hear sometimes parents that I'm working with talk about teaching their kids how to,
15:15
and I don't want to say any of the terms wrong, but is it mask or is that,
15:20
you know, I don't know if masking is a bad thing, but there's a part of me that wonders,
15:23
because I'm a big acceptance and commitment therapy person where,
15:26
you know, that is the person, this is who they are.
15:28
So is there any controversy in the area of autism about the person just being
15:33
themselves, whatever that sounds like? And then here is the skill to learn.
15:37
There is. There's a lot of controversy. And the Autism Society has only given
15:42
a thumbs up to this curriculum because it honors the individual,
15:46
that we're not trying to change the individual.
15:48
You're trying to give skills that will enhance their lives. And these skills are a choice.
15:52
Okay. I love that difference there. So now I understand, Carla,
15:56
when you're saying it's much different than just go do this,
15:58
because that's like, okay, you just tell me exactly what to do.
16:01
I will parrot that. And then, and I wonder if that falls into the kid at that
16:05
point, or even the young adult wanting the validation of the person that's teaching
16:09
them that versus them learning that this is, I like what you're saying,
16:12
what socially successful people do.
16:14
Mm-hmm. Okay. Yet, Tony, it does
16:17
give concrete steps that are thorough and tell you exactly what to do.
16:22
And I have found as a person that's usually socially successful,
16:27
none of us are perfect at it.
16:28
But I am doing these steps. I didn't realize I was doing them until I knew about them.
16:33
But it is exactly how I approach people or enter conversations,
16:37
how I maintain conversations, is what Dr. Largeson and our team discovered.
16:44
That successfully social people are doing. And I appreciate this too.
16:47
I will often say, and I sometimes hesitate, but then I don't feel like I need
16:51
to, but I will say, okay, I will play at times when I'm doing marriage therapy
16:55
or how to help an individual, I'll play the role of normal police.
16:59
But I naturally air quote normal because again, I go back to what is normal
17:03
and who am I to tell others that this is exactly how they should think or feel or what they should do.
17:07
But then I can also say it is also 20 years of experience in my job and it's
17:11
all based off of evidence-based data.
17:12
Of how to show up. But I love what you're saying. I'm here. I'm right beside
17:15
the person and here are some things to do, but it still honors the individual. I love this idea too.
17:22
Yeah, Sarah. The evidence also shows that about 50% of social bids will be rejected.
17:27
So I think that's important for everybody to understand. Even normal social
17:33
bids, 50% of them will be rejected.
17:35
So if we can go into that situation knowing that sometimes we're rejected,
17:40
sometimes we're accepted. It doesn't have anything to do with us, right?
17:44
That people are people and sometimes they're in the mood to talk and sometimes they're not.
17:49
So we don't need to get discouraged, I guess is what I'm saying,
17:53
if our social bid is rejected.
17:55
And is that typically, is that harder for someone on the spectrum to deal with
17:59
that rejection or those bids?
18:01
I think it's hard on all of us. I would agree. Yes. Yeah.
18:05
Okay. And this is a fascinating, maybe side note as well, but I had an autism
18:10
or a neurodivergent autism expert.
18:12
Her name's Jodi Carlton on the podcast a while back. And we were talking about
18:15
autism versus narcissism.
18:17
And there are some things that appear similar, but then we were pointing out the differences.
18:20
And she just mentioned, I was talking about ADHD and she mentioned that there's
18:24
some that feel like that is on the spectrum.
18:26
And I said, if it is, then sign me up. I mean, I want to learn more about what that looks like.
18:30
And I know in the world of ADHD, there's rejection sensitivity where there's
18:34
this anticipatory rejection because the data says that by the time an ADHD kid
18:38
is 10, 12, that they've been rejected up to 10,000 times more than the quote normal kid.
18:44
Just even in the not now champ, hey, slow down. We're not going to do that.
18:48
So you develop this anticipatory rejection.
18:50
I have not found that, Tony. I find this resilient.
18:55
They just keep trying. Okay. Okay. I like that. And what are the reasons behind
19:00
that, do you think, Carla?
19:01
And I think I'm leading the witness because I have assumptions in my mind.
19:06
My thoughts are that,
19:08
that they're not tuned into the rejection. Okay. Okay. That makes so much sense. Yeah.
19:15
It's interesting. Before we hit record, I was sharing with you guys that I had
19:19
a clip about highly sensitive people that has done really well.
19:22
And there are people in the comments though, that are saying these people are autistic.
19:26
Take away the highly sensitive person diagnosis. And there's a couple of differences
19:30
that I think are really interesting that might speak to this too.
19:32
And I would love to get your thoughts.
19:34
I was sharing last night on the live that there's a common misconception that
19:38
highly sensitive person traits and autism spectrum disorder are the same condition.
19:42
And the belief is they share some surface level similarities.
19:45
And a lot of that is the sensory processing.
19:47
But then the key stats say that HSP affects about 30% of the population in autism.
19:52
The data that I was seeing was two to 3%. And so this Dr.
19:56
Elaine Aron, who is the one that coined the term highly sensitive person,
19:59
she talked about that HSP is considered a trait rather than a disorder,
20:03
and that it's characterized by heightened sensitivity to environmental stimuli
20:07
and a deeper processing of information.
20:09
And then she said, ASD is this neurodevelopmental condition that presents and
20:12
challenges in social interaction and communication and behavior.
20:15
So I felt like that really showed the difference. But I would love to get your
20:19
take on that, highly sensitive person, maybe versus autism.
20:22
And then what are your thoughts on that data, the two to 3%?
20:26
Yeah, so I was just reading a study the other day that said one in 32 children
20:31
now are diagnosed on the spectrum.
20:34
And it used to be one in 10,000.
20:37
So, yeah, so within a generation, we've seen this spike in autism diagnosis.
20:44
So either we've changed how we diagnose.
20:46
So are we including ADHD in the diagnosis, that kind of thing?
20:51
Or we have a huge spike in autism. Awesome.
20:54
Okay. What do you think? Any ideas, either of you?
20:58
I would say that we're recognizing it more. We're seeing it more.
21:03
We're a more sensitive population now to this difference.
21:07
Okay. I know I probably took us off track a little bit there.
21:09
So I'd love to get back to when you're talking about your program,
21:13
give me some real life scenarios and what this looks like, what your course will offer somebody.
21:17
Yeah, I think at first it's important to know that we really respect the students that come to us.
21:25
Neurodiversity means that maybe we think differently, but differences don't
21:30
make us more or less than someone else.
21:32
So we're not trying to change that individual.
21:35
We're just trying to enhance their ability to show who they really are.
21:38
That's really important that we're not trying to change the foundation of that person. Okay.
21:44
Not trying to create just a type of person that this is an autistic person and
21:48
how they present. It's still, they're uniquely them.
21:51
Yeah, because they have superpowers and they should show them off, right?
21:55
We're just trying to give them the skills that they can use to get out there
22:00
and show their superpowers.
22:02
So what we teach ultimately will be a choice for them to use.
22:06
And we want everyone that comes to us to have chosen to come to us.
22:09
We don't want necessarily parents forcing them into a class because it's not
22:15
going to be successful for anyone if they're forced to be there.
22:18
They have to want the skills that we're offering.
22:22
And do you feel like by the time somebody hits that 18 or so,
22:26
that now they really do want to know how to show up in the world or what comes next?
22:31
Yeah, I think a lot of them are hungry for the information.
22:34
And I think the parents are hungry for them to have the information too.
22:38
Yeah, I think so. I can think of a couple of couples that I've worked with in
22:42
the past that that literally is the time where the child graduates high school
22:45
and then it does seem like the world is big.
22:49
And I don't want to sound dramatic and say scary, but then it is, what do we do next?
22:53
They're just throwing them into a regular college and hoping for the best.
22:57
So do you feel like that's where maybe you guys come in? Right.
23:01
Learning how to deal with roommates or college situations, all that will be
23:06
really helpful if they have the skills.
23:09
To navigate those social situations without parents
23:12
around yeah so do you have examples or
23:15
i think carla were you saying that sarah was going to go into more detail on the
23:18
specifics for a real life example as i was saying a lot of times we're told
23:23
just go say hi go introduce yourself but if you went up to money and went hi
23:27
i'm tony to a complete stranger how would that stranger perceive you oh they're
23:32
very like oh man backing off the angle and where's my wallet and what else do I need to do? Yeah.
23:38
Odd. Even though that's what we're told, it's not what we're actually doing
23:41
when we're successful out in the world.
23:43
So we will teach that concrete steps of you, you have a prop,
23:49
for instance, it could be a book, a lot of times it's your phone.
23:52
And you use that to not to look distracted. I'm just looking at my phone.
23:57
And then you look over at the person trying to make a little eye contact smile.
24:01
And then you notice something about them that can
24:04
be a common interest notice something about maybe
24:07
you have an emblem for your running gear and i'm also
24:10
a runner i could notice that and use that as a
24:14
way to enter a conversation with you and then after some
24:17
steps then you get to hi i'm
24:20
carla okay i love it okay that makes so much sense
24:23
and i like what you're saying that would probably be a good idea for
24:26
me as well so they're just regular skills that would
24:28
help yeah nothing right so how to enter
24:32
a conversation how to maintain a conversation how
24:35
to exit a conversation what to do if you
24:38
were rejected partially accepted or fully accepted into a conversation and how
24:44
to recognize whether you are recognizing if the circle opens if the body language
24:50
opens to you what what people's eyes are doing can i tell you when i first got into this work,
24:56
one of the very first clients I had that I still remember to this day,
24:59
he was in his mid to late 20s. He was married.
25:02
He worked at an engineering firm and he was open to his autism diagnosis.
25:08
I think even at the time he was concerned to have Asperger's,
25:11
which I don't know if you can speak to what is the difference or why did Asperger's
25:15
go away? First of all, I'm curious about that.
25:18
Well, it went away because of insurance.
25:24
Really, the Asperger's diagnosis wasn't considered autistic at the time,
25:29
so there weren't services provided.
25:32
For people with Asperger's. So, when they put it under the autism umbrella,
25:37
then they could get the services they needed.
25:39
Okay. Are there key differences to what formerly known as Asperger's was?
25:44
Well, the spectrum is so large, right?
25:47
They can cover ADHD and what used to be Asperger's to a myriad of other different
25:54
ways of thinking, of processing, right?
25:56
Yeah. Generally, we looked at Asperger's as people that were really,
26:00
really bright yes but didn't have social skills okay
26:03
yes so the high functioning autism and so this person was
26:06
very brilliant and we worked on very specific things
26:10
like he would if he was in a crowd of engineers and they're all talking and
26:14
then he realized i don't really care about what they're talking about he would
26:17
just leave and then he often felt and he was surprised why then one of his write-ups
26:22
at work he was told that he doesn't seem like a team player and then the other
26:25
one that I thought was so interesting was he asked me very specifically once,
26:29
he said, do you often share movie quotes with people?
26:32
And then I said every now and again, but he had a movie quote for every situation.
26:37
And so if people weren't speaking back in movie quotes, he felt like they weren't interested in him.
26:42
And so I thought those were, I don't know if those would fit into kind of the
26:45
things that you see or the things that you're working with.
26:48
Yeah. So we're teaching them to trade information.
26:51
So yeah, that goes hand in hand with what you're just saying that if somebody's
26:56
not giving you movie quotes back, then you're not trading information in a way
27:00
that relates to that person.
27:02
So you've got to think, how can I trade information with them that actually sparks a conversation?
27:08
So it gets them that outside of maybe just being an interviewer or dominating
27:14
a conversation to actually learn how to trade information back and forth.
27:20
Which was my favorite part of Love on the Spectrum was to watch when a couple
27:24
would get together and they were really, you could tell they were trying to
27:27
exchange, I like that phrase, exchange information.
27:30
Yeah. You could see where it would seem awkward, but I thought it was one of
27:34
the most adorable things to watch in the world was seem so vulnerable and to
27:39
see how they were putting themselves out there.
27:41
Right. Skills that can be taught to anyone, right? Maybe naturally,
27:46
but they can be taught. Yeah.
27:47
And Sarah, if I can bring in some vulnerability, something you learned from
27:52
this course is that sometimes you can be an interviewer that keep asking.
27:58
And so this, like you said, it can help any of us. None of us are socially perfect.
28:03
Yeah, for sure. What are like, I love this concept of the interviewing or what
28:08
are some other just things that people might not know they don't know or things
28:11
that they would learn in your course?
28:13
So being a conversation hog would be the other side of that okay maybe i am on the spectrum.
28:22
I feel we all are okay i i would after this interview it was a while ago i came
28:28
away from that thinking okay it's suddenly the neurodivergent going to be the
28:31
person we currently call normal and normal are the rest of us there's going
28:36
to be a tipping point where that whole thing shifts Right.
28:39
And we're teaching. As we step into our authenticity, we're all going to be
28:44
these different people.
28:47
Yeah. Yeah. OK. I don't expect you guys to talk negatively about other courses.
28:52
I would imagine that there that is not even anything that you guys would do.
28:55
But are there other courses out there? I mean, you talk about this being evidence based.
28:58
And as a therapist, I want to just operate from this place of there's data behind
29:02
the things that I'm sharing. This isn't just my idea.
29:05
And I also am on the record for I love life coaches.
29:08
And life coaches can do some really amazing things. I often say that when they
29:11
can tell you what to do, then I'm there to say, tell me why that didn't work
29:14
or tell me why you didn't do it.
29:15
But are there programs out there that you feel like are, again,
29:19
I don't want you to trash it, you don't have to, but that are teaching the wrong information.
29:25
From my understanding, this is the only evidence-based approach. Okay.
29:30
Yeah. I am fascinated over the last couple of years, I've developed more courses
29:34
that the more I've learned about the way that people organize a course or a
29:38
sales page and this concept of teaching the destination.
29:42
Do you want your kid to, do you want them to feel, do you want to be, and it sounds great.
29:47
And then I was actually having some help from someone that was trying to help
29:50
me put courses together.
29:51
And I was saying, okay, but I want to talk about the evidence-based model of
29:55
communication that I work from my four pillars based off of emotionally focused
29:58
therapy or the work that we do with whatever it would look like validation from David Schnarch.
30:03
And this person, who I understand was saying, that's the vehicle.
30:06
We don't care about the vehicle. We want the destination and people are buying the destination.
30:10
And I really struggled with that because I think you need to have a good vehicle
30:14
to get to the destination. So the empirical data shows that the students after
30:18
going through this program have more get-togethers. So that's the end goal.
30:22
More get-togethers, more social interaction, greater self-esteem.
30:28
And that's what the data is showing. So I love that. So you guys can,
30:32
yes. Oh, yes, Sarah. Oh, I was going to say also to recognize the pain source.
30:35
So I think in marketing, you look for the pain sources, right?
30:39
Yes. The pain source for what we were seeing with our students,
30:43
both Carla and mine, was that once they graduated our programs,
30:47
they were home alone and not knowing how to get out into the world and have
30:52
social interactions, to have friends.
30:54
So we were dealing with a really lonely group.
30:59
I heard that it's up to 85% of people.
31:02
Population is on the couch, their parents' couch. Without a job,
31:07
even with a college education, without a job, without at least deeper,
31:12
meaningful friendships. Wow.
31:14
And then with that isolation, now are we in the back to my world in the therapy
31:19
lens of people turning down healthy coping mechanisms or further isolating or
31:23
starting to just go into their own minds?
31:25
I don't know. Does anxiety go up, depression, those things as well?
31:28
Yes, that is the consequence of not having healthy friendships.
31:32
Okay. Right. And I want to say, do they feel it deeper than they're maybe people
31:36
on the spectrum that don't get the help?
31:38
I think they want it just as much as any human. We are relational creatures. Yeah. Yeah.
31:45
How long is your course? How long is your program? What does that look like? Yeah.
31:49
So we meet once a week and it's six weeks long.
31:52
So we have our first course is friendship 101 and that will be six weeks long.
31:57
And then we go into a dating course. So they build off of each other.
32:00
And so that would be a six week long course as well. And then, and they're all on Zoom.
32:05
So we can meet with people all over the world. It doesn't matter where people live.
32:09
And then we have a course on workplace, how to deal with colleagues and that.
32:16
So like your friend that was just walking up when conversations didn't,
32:20
when he wasn't interested, we teach them how to deal with work, social situations.
32:27
Okay. So what I appreciate about this too, is I think somebody in a role like
32:30
myself as a therapist, this would be a good resource to, they can come in and
32:33
we can talk about things.
32:35
Tell me about your mom. They can lay on the couch. But then as far as the,
32:38
what I don't know that I don't know, it sounds like referring a therapist,
32:41
referring to your program would almost be the homework. Yes.
32:46
Yes. Yeah. And we do give homework. They do have homework. Yeah.
32:52
Okay, do they do the homework? I'm so curious as a therapist.
32:56
Most people don't. It's fun homework. You brought that up last night.
33:00
It's to practice the skills with their people, call grandma,
33:04
practice trading information with her.
33:07
And I think it's the homework that they enjoy.
33:11
And part of when they join is for this to be successful, you need to do the
33:16
homework, you need to partner with someone at home.
33:19
And then we do behavioral rehearsals in the class as well.
33:22
Okay. How does that go? Does that work well? Yes.
33:26
But going back to the person at home, we call that a social coach.
33:31
So it could be a roommate, it could be a friend, it could be a parent.
33:34
But really having that person, that social coach, increases their accountability and desire maybe,
33:43
or getting it done, the homework, is more likely to get done if they have someone
33:47
helping them and checking in with them throughout the week.
33:51
Do you have information for that person of how they show up?
33:55
Yes. Yes. We will send out an email to them each week as well with the assignment
34:00
so they can see exactly what they've done.
34:03
That's exciting. What are things that maybe I didn't even know to ask you or
34:07
things that you wanted to make sure that people knew about, whether it's your
34:10
course or you guys or the work that you do?
34:13
Well, I was thinking about your friend and exiting conversations,
34:17
how a lot of times we don't even think that that's a skill, how to exit a conversation.
34:23
And we teach three different ways to exit a conversation, and they need a cover
34:29
story. And as you brought up.
34:32
It's masking for the autism community. And I think a lot of us do mask.
34:37
And what I find so refreshing in the autistic community is that they don't mask.
34:41
And I love it. I'm so drawn to it.
34:44
And I'm inspired by it. And so this idea of a cover story to exit a conversation
34:50
is a new idea for a lot of people where you go, well, got to get going.
34:54
And maybe you don't. But you just, that's the proper way to keep those connections
35:00
with the people that you're leaving.
35:02
Okay. I love that. Yeah. What else do we need to know? Well,
35:05
also we do a lot of role-playing in our classes so they can really see real life situations.
35:12
So we're not just basing it on something ethereal out there that they can't.
35:17
We want them to see concretely how to use these skills.
35:21
So role-playing is a huge part of that.
35:23
And we do appropriate and inappropriate role-playing.
35:27
Okay. Oh, that would be, what's a good example of an inappropriate role-play?
35:31
Like your friend just leaving hey yes just walk it away or maybe you're standing
35:37
way too far apart and you're yelling and you're in the library so teaching them
35:41
proper social distancing and volume control that kind of stuff so that they
35:46
can approach a person without maybe,
35:50
getting them on guard like why is this person yelling or standing so far away or too close sounds.
35:56
So in this episode where I'm preparing the differences between HSP and autism,
36:01
there's some things that I'm finding.
36:03
And I want to know, are these just old tropes of autism? Or are they true where
36:06
it was talking about too intense of eye contact or not being able to read the
36:11
social cues or maybe not being as big of a fan of sarcasm? Are those things pretty universal?
36:18
Yeah. Experience the intense eye contact, but not picking up on the social cues for sure.
36:25
And sarcasm cracks me up how I once said to a student, a substitute teacher
36:32
was going to go work in the preschool. And I'm like, they're going to eat them alive.
36:35
And my student was like, oh my God, I took it literally.
36:40
And I have enjoyed their literal take on sarcasm. It's funny you say that, Carla.
36:47
I have one of my favorite clients of all time I've worked with for a very long time.
36:50
He's an adult in his mid-20s now and very open about his autism.
36:56
And he will often say, do you really mean that or is that a joke?
37:00
And I love those moments. I'm more aware they ask those questions.
37:03
Chance. And I guess I think I was saying the exact opposite of what it is.
37:07
Is it a lack of eye contact?
37:08
Is this one where you're teaching someone? That's more eye experience. Yes. Okay.
37:11
And now that you're saying, I can think of another client that is amazing,
37:15
wonderful. And she's very aware of her autism. And she's told me that she works on her eye contact.
37:19
And there are times where I will then be aware of that and notice she is,
37:23
that's where she's really holding my glance. And then I feel like I'm in a staring
37:26
contest and I go back to my childhood and I will not lose this.
37:31
Yeah um yeah so that's one of
37:34
the skills we do work on is appropriate eye contact
37:37
okay yeah i love this
37:39
i think a lot of programs can work on that that's something the school systems
37:43
would work on but this brings in so many other skills like i've mentioned that
37:51
how to enter a conversation i don't think the school systems are addressing
37:54
that or other curriculums that i've seen And going back to the ecologically valid social skills,
38:00
this is what socially successful people are doing.
38:03
This is the distance. This is the words for our anti-bullying class.
38:09
They literally have found that there's 12 things to say to the person that bullies
38:14
you that will get them to stop.
38:18
And you don't just throw in another word without at least this program.
38:22
They will study it. They'll have their controlled group and make sure that statement
38:27
does get rid of the bully.
38:29
I love it. Now, of course, I want to know what are those? I'm going to take
38:32
the course. And that's us.
38:36
It's things like that. Because, again, it's one of those things where we might
38:40
tell our people, oh, just ignore them.
38:43
But that is not what the data shows. No, I can imagine.
38:46
Yeah. Yeah, there's a friend of mine that I had on, and I will admit I'm Googling in the background.
38:51
He's Dr. Kevin Pugh. I went to high school with him. He's at the University of Northern Colorado.
38:56
And he's one of the people that's on the leading edge of experiential learning.
39:00
And he's talked about how school systems, it feels like they're still based
39:04
off of 30, 40 years ago, pre-internet, where you didn't have access to so many
39:09
things and that we need to do more experiential learning.
39:12
And it sounds like with the role plays and that sort of thing,
39:15
do you see that that experiential learning piece is really powerful with the autistic community?
39:20
Yes. Yes. The video modeling, them acting it out is the game changer.
39:27
Okay. And that's where I would imagine it sounds like everyone could use more of that.
39:32
And the reason I'm staying on this, one is I'm trying to find a joke to make
39:35
about with Sarah and the theater because her kids were such amazing actors and
39:40
actresses. But also, I have, oh, is there some of that, sir?
39:44
There were a lot of children with autism in the theater program that our kids were involved in.
39:50
And the founder or the director, she really learned that there were concrete
39:55
steps she could take to work with those children that helped them succeed in theater.
40:00
So, I think that people on the spectrum really do love to have some concrete tools they can use.
40:07
So, they're not having to think through everything. Am I doing this right? Am I doing this wrong?
40:13
But they can have those concrete steps and it works in all facets of life, I feel like.
40:18
It does. It's funny you mentioned that. And I've been to have Lurie on here several times.
40:22
I need to maybe do that, be intentional about that and talk about TNT and the
40:26
play theory, I believe it was.
40:28
Yes. But I remember my daughter going to one of the first practices and everybody
40:32
got in a circle and they clapped and they said things and they talked about
40:35
their unique traits. And some of them were really, really unique.
40:38
And at that time, I remember just at first thinking, this is uncomfortable.
40:42
And by the end of that, I thought, man, these guys are living their best life.
40:46
They're really embracing who they are.
40:47
And I've never forgotten that. I had never forgotten that. And also maybe I'm
40:51
dealing with my own discomfort of I'm trying to role play more with,
40:54
I do a lot of couples therapy and I want them to be able to communicate with
40:59
each other, but I found it more effective at times for me to play the role of
41:02
the guy and or the female.
41:05
And I'm find myself still uncomfortable with the role playing,
41:08
but I think it's so powerful. It is experiential. So I really love that you
41:12
have that component so strong in your program.
41:14
Okay. I love that. Yeah. What else do we need to know?
41:17
Learning these skills should be about enhancing social interaction so others
41:22
can appreciate who we already are. I like that. So the already are.
41:26
So is this go against that concept of masking of trying to figure out or be
41:30
a certain person that someone else thinks that you should be?
41:33
Exactly. Bringing our authentic selves.
41:36
Okay. With skills that help our interactions. And is that something that has
41:42
shifted over the years, in your opinion?
41:44
Yes. Yes. As the autistic community has come to speak up for themselves and
41:51
say, no, we are wonderful just the way we are. And...
41:55
These skills will enhance their lives. I love that. And maybe I can go on just
42:00
a real quick acceptance and commitment therapy.
42:02
Why I love it as a therapeutic modality is it starts with the I'm the only version
42:05
of me. So I think and feel the way I do because I do.
42:08
And so as I shifted over from a cognitive behavioral therapy therapist to an
42:11
acceptance and commitment therapy therapist,
42:13
it is really fascinating to go back and look at the areas where I know that
42:17
at some point, people need almost something to interact with to figure out who
42:22
they are. But then that journey becomes theirs.
42:25
So if someone's saying, I think that you would like this and they don't know
42:28
what they like, that's probably fair for them to say, okay, I'll try it.
42:31
But then hopefully on that path, they will figure out, but I actually don't
42:35
like this and I want to do this.
42:36
And so they're in charge of their own. Just like all of us, just as I want more
42:40
authentically in the world. How do I do that?
42:43
How do I make better and deeper, stronger connections?
42:47
I like what you're saying is, I think this is just maybe all parents,
42:50
but if they are embarrassed of the way that their kid is acting,
42:53
that is a them issue, the parents issue.
42:56
And so then they want their child to act a certain way so that then they feel better.
43:01
And I know that comes from a good place as well. I don't want them to also get
43:04
bullied. So I want them to show up a certain way.
43:07
So I wonder, is that kind of what we're talking about too?
43:10
I know we want our children to be seen positively. That's going to give them
43:14
a lot of benefit in the world to have other parents like them,
43:18
to respond positively to them.
43:20
And what I've found with my daughter who comes so authentic to this world and
43:27
people that work with children see that and love it.
43:31
And I think we are evolving as a society to see authenticity as a positive thing.
43:37
And then there's just like all of us, we have these rough edges.
43:41
We're going to smooth out how to enter that conversation without turning people
43:45
off from us. And those are the skills we're going to be teaching.
43:50
Okay. Anything else I want you guys to be able to talk about?
43:53
Where do people find you?
43:54
And I would love to recommend this to therapists as well as civilians,
43:58
people out in the wild. How are you getting the word out? Where do people find you?
44:01
Thanks, Toti. Yes, our website is breakingsocialbarriers.com.
44:06
And we also have a Facebook page. We're on Instagram as well.
44:09
But yeah, they can sign up on our website.
44:12
And we will be starting a new set of classes.
44:16
Our first class is Friendship 101. So we'll be starting two sets of those classes in a few weeks.
44:21
Okay. And if they have specific questions, they can reach out to you, I would imagine?
44:25
Yes. My email address is right on our website. Okay. So I'll put the links in there.
44:29
Okay. I'm excited about this. I would love to encourage, I have a lot of therapists
44:33
that listen to the virtual couch.
44:34
And I just think embracing that things that we don't know that we don't know.
44:37
And sometimes it's silly to say this, but I know a lot of therapists feel like
44:41
they're supposed to know everything.
44:43
And I would love to encourage therapists listening to not just turn to Google
44:46
to try to figure out how to help your people that have an autism diagnosis or
44:51
feel like they have autistic traits and just cut to the chase and go to Sarah and Carla.
44:55
And you can talk to your client about what that's like for them,
44:58
but get the real tools there.
44:59
Yeah, but I really like hearing that you're still helping this person stay as
45:03
they are themselves and use their own traits, talents, and then giving them
45:07
the tools to then act within that. I really like that a lot.
45:11
And also, they don't need to have a diagnosis to take our course.
45:14
Thank you. They can be self-diagnosed or just lonely and they don't know how
45:18
to get out and make friends.
45:20
So this course really is available to anyone that's feeling any kind of social anxiety.
45:25
That's brilliant. All right, Sarah and Carla, this is so much fun.
45:29
I appreciate, I feel like I learned a lot and I'll put all the links and we'll
45:33
try to get some fun clips and get that out there and spread the word.
45:36
So thanks so much for coming on.
45:37
Thanks, Tommy. Okay, thank you.