Latest / The Lila Rose Show / E291: Catholics, Protestants, and Marrying Jesus w/John Bevere | Lila Rose Show

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E291: Catholics, Protestants, and Marrying Jesus w/John Bevere | Lila Rose Show · The Lila Rose Show

• 0:00
  When she hit that back door with her dad and she had this
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  gorgeous dress on, I was overwhelmed.
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  I think that's the way Jesus looks at us, Lila.
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  He's just looking forward to the day when the Father looks at him
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  and says go get your bride and see.
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  I was raised Catholic and now I'm evangelical, but I love.
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  All but you weren't raised with the real Catholic in terms of
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  the. Teaching.
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  I don't want any of my Catholic brothers and sisters thinking I
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  think they're in error. I don't.
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  Think that it's in. Error.
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  It's just my conscience just isn't comfortable going to the
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  full end of saying. I wasn't planning to go here in
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  this interview. What would it take for you to be
• 0:29
  1 and with the Catholic Church? Well, that's interesting.
• 0:35
  Welcome back to the Lila Rose Show.
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  Today I'm sitting down with my friend John Bevere.
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  You may recognize him from the episode on marriage that we did
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  with his lovely wife Lisa Bevere.
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  A lot of you love that John is a best selling author and the
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  founder of Messenger International.
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  John discusses his new book, The King is Coming, and we also get
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  into a candid conversation about his upbringing and faith
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  background and some of the differences and
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  misunderstandings between Catholics and Protestants.
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  I hope you enjoy and Please remember to hit the subscribe
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  button. And if you enjoy this video,
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  leave us a like as well. John Bevere, welcome to the
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  Welcome Back to the podcast. Lala, it's an honor and a
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  privilege to be on this program with you.
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  Thank you for all that you and Live Action are doing.
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  Lisa and I so support you. And I'm going to say this on air
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  because it needs to be said. You carry this, this mission
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  with such grace, such kindness, but yet you're as firm as nails.
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  You've got grit like few people I know.
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  And thank you for staying the course, not giving up, staying
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  strong. I applaud you and your husband
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  and your family for doing it. Thank you John.
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  Thank you well I've got you and Lisa to look up to for that same
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  tough as nails but so full of love and you guys are some of my
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  favorite people I've ever had on the show and thank you so much
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  for supporting live action so much in the Pearl life mission
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  we're. Just fellow warriors for Jesus
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  and we are warriors. Thank you.
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  I was talking to you before you sat down.
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  I was like, there's so many amazing books that you've
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  written and I, I've Catholics, Protestants, all different
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  backgrounds because there's so much spiritual truth in your
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  books that is just gives people a fire, fiery hearts for God.
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  And I was saying, how many copies have you sold so far of
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  all these books? I'm I'm uncertain, but I think
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  it's pushing 10 million. I don't know if I've had anyone
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  on the show that sold that many books.
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  It's just amazing to see the power.
• 2:27
  No Bait of Satan just passed 6,000,000 a couple of years ago.
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  I don't know where the rest of them are.
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  There's 25 of them. I think the thing that I'm most
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  excited about Lila, is that they're in 146 languages now.
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  And our mission for the last 16 years has been to give books to
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  pastors who have nothing overseas.
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  And we just passed 65.5 million courses and books that we've
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  given to pastors overseas. So just Iran alone, we've done
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  over 4 million. Our app is being used in 243
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  nations of the world, is over 12,000 users in Saudi Arabia
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  alone. North Korea people are using it.
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  How this happens I have no idea, but it's obviously a God thing.
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  And as you know, as a leader of a ministry, God is the one that
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  gives increase. We work hard.
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  Paul planted, Apollo's watered, but God is the one that gives
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  the increase. Yes, Amen.
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  And I was just listening to the scriptures this morning and the
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  gospel reading was about the sower sowing the seed and I was
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  really moved and convicted again.
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  Where you can sow the seed and the, you know, the the seed can
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  grow up and the weeds can choke it or the cares or the
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  distractions of this world can choke it, but only God can
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  actually give the fruit, you know, tenfold. 24.
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  To keep the ground right? And God does the.
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  Teachable needs to be humble, needs to walk in the fear of
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  God, needs to be rooted and grounded in love.
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  If your soil is good, you're going to produce and, and we are
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  responsible for that. Are we going to allow the cares
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  of this life and the deceitfulness of riches and the
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  desires for other things to choke out the word?
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  Are we going to receive the word?
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  But as soon as we're persecuted for it, walk away.
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  So that's your ground, your rocky ground and your and your
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  your ground that has the weeds in it.
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  And so we're responsible to keep our heart free, but God is the
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  one that causes it to grow, as you just said.
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  Amen. How did you first have an
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  encounter with God? You've now been walking with God
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  throughout your marriage, your ministry.
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  Tell us the John of your origin story.
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  As a Catholic boy. Altar altar boy for eight years.
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  Catholic school for seven years. My Catholic priest made a
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  statement to me at catechism in 3rd grade that I'll never
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  forget. I said my friend Gordy Gibbs
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  skip Mass last week, Is he going to be OK?
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  And the priest said if he doesn't go to the confessional,
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  he'll go to hell. Now, I'm not saying the priest
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  was right. That put a fear in me.
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  Lila, I don't care. You know, I play Junior Davis
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  Cup tennis, the USTA circuit. I started on Purdue University's
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  tennis team. All my coaches knew they had to
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  bring me to Catholic Mass because that fear that got in me
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  when that Catholic priest said it, I was like, I'm never
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  missing Mass. Well, there was a guy in my
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  fraternity who saw that I had a lot of zeal, but he could see I
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  had no relationship with Jesus. I was complete party boy.
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  You know, I would just, I didn't even like drinking, but I drink
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  to get drunk just to be, to fit in.
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  It was all about girls, everything like that, and I
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  wouldn't listen to people unless they were really athletic.
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  Well, this guy happened to be one of the best athletes in the
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  state of Indiana in football and baseball.
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  He came to my room and shared Campus Crusade for spiritual
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  laws. He saw that it was getting
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  nowhere with me. So he looks at me and says this
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  lively. He said, John, can you tell me
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  about the president of United States?
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  I said, sure, Jimmy Carter's wife's Roslyn.
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  He was a peanut farmer from Georgia.
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  He was governor of Georgia. He's a great.
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  Can you tell me about Jesus? So I gave all my answers, right,
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  that I got in catechism, born of a virgin, had 12 apostles, died
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  on a cross, right? He said, great, do you know
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  President Carter like you know your mother?
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  And I went, no, he said, what's tell me the difference?
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  I said, I've never met him. He said, so you have a
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  relationship with your mother and you know about the present,
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  but you've never ever had a conversation or have a
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  relationship with him. I said exactly.
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  He said, do you know Jesus like you know your mother?
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  And my jaw dropped. And that is the very thing that
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  God used to open up my eyes, that just being Catholic wasn't
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  going to save me. Just like being Methodist
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  doesn't save us, just like being a Pentecostal doesn't save us.
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  It is a relationship with Jesus. And the only way we can have a
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  relationship with Jesus is if we do what a girl does when she
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  walks on down an aisle of a church with a white dress on.
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  We're called the bride of Christ.
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  So when a girl walks down an aisle with a white dress on,
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  she's actually making a pretty bold statement.
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  She's saying goodbye to about 3.9 billion guys.
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  What is she saying? This is the one and only man I'm
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  going to give the rest of my life to.
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  I don't believe we talked about this enough in the American
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  church is that Jesus is our bridegroom.
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  We're the bride. Just as no young man would ever
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  strike a deal with his girlfriend if when he proposed
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  to her and she said, you know, I dated this guy in high school
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  for two years. I like just two nights a year in
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  bed with him and you know, you'll be my favorite.
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  I love you more than my high school boyfriend, but you know,
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  I just can't cut him out. No young man would ever accept
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  that. And I look at Jesus, Lila, what
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  Jesus did for us. I mean, I'm writing this new
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  book, The King is Coming. I did something that I haven't
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  done in 46 years of being a believer.
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  I intensely studied what he went through.
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  The night of his betrayal he stood in front of 4 Garrison of
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  soldiers, three of which Caiaphas, Herods and pilots beat
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  him till the soldiers were exhausted.
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  Isaiah said that by the time they were done beating on him
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  for about 10 hours. This is our creator His.
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  His face didn't even look like a human being.
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  He knew he was going to go through it.
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  He gave the words to Isaiah 600 years earlier then they they do
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  the scourging. His back is completely exposed
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  because they said the Romans, you know, the Jews only did it
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  39 times. The Romans didn't have a law
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  like that. They said most often the man's
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  spine was exposed and his hip bones were exposed because they
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  would time up naked on a on a 2 foot tall stone thing where his
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  wrists were so locked in they couldn't move.
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  And they would have a left-handed guy and a
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  right-handed guy going Wham, Wham, Wham, Wham, Wham, Wham
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  with metal and bone fragments and the the whip.
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  And I look at our creator. He could have called for 12
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  legions of angels, but because of the joy of his bride set
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  before him, he endured it. They then drive the nails into
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  the median nerves, which is, according to doctors, is the
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  most sensitive nerve in the entire human body.
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  Every time he pulls up to keep from suffocating, the pain is
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  absolutely excruciating for six hours.
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  He knows he's going to do this because he's so in love with his
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  bride, which is you and I and all all the believers who truly
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  follow him. Now when I look at him giving
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  his life to us that way and we say, let me, let me sleep with,
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  let me flirt with the very things that drove the nails
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  through your hands. No thanks.
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  That doesn't work. That's like the girl saying, let
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  me just sleep with my old boyfriends when we're married.
• 9:44
  He's coming back for a bride that has given herself to him
• 9:47
  the way he gave himself to her. This year, America is 250 years
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• 10:36
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  hollow.com/lila. We can never think about what
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  every day and of our own mortality.
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  What else is the life of a Christian to meditate on what
• 11:32
  our Lord did for us? So thank you for letting me
• 11:35
  meditate just now because I didn't do that yet today and
• 11:37
  there's many days I don't do it. Every single morning when I go
• 11:41
  out to pray I I usually spend anywhere from 5 to 10 minutes
• 11:46
  thanking him and I walk through every step.
• 11:47
  The crown of thorns that lacerated his skull, I go
• 11:51
  through every bit of it. His beard being ripped out and I
• 11:54
  say thank you, my creator. You chose to do this for us.
• 11:59
  And this is part of this message on the King is coming because he
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  was the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world.
• 12:08
  God the Father had a meeting with God the Son and God the
• 12:11
  Holy Spirit before the world was ever created and said we're
• 12:14
  going to create man and they're going to mess up.
• 12:16
  He didn't make us mess up. He knows the end from the
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  beginning. He's not bound to time.
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  He just knows what we're going to do.
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  He said, son, would you go die for them?
• 12:24
  And, and Jesus, the son said yes.
• 12:28
  And so I asked myself a question when I was I'm, I'm sorry, I
• 12:33
  feel like I've taken over this, this podcast.
• 12:35
  In your heart, sure. And I, I want to ask you about
• 12:37
  your encounter with God as a kid, but I want to hear what
• 12:40
  you're going to say here because this is in your heart.
• 12:43
  This is what you. Knowing, knowing he's the Lamb
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  slain from the foundation of the world, I asked a question in
• 12:49
  this book I didn't know the answer to.
• 12:52
  I said, you're God. Why couldn't you have?
• 12:54
  Why couldn't you have devised a much less painful salvation for
• 12:59
  us? Why?
• 13:01
  Why did you allow demonized men to do this?
• 13:05
  One of the things that he said to me as he said, because I
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  wanted to be as close to my bride as possible.
• 13:12
  What I didn't realize is about in the last couple of decades,
• 13:19
  psychologists, scientists have discovered something.
• 13:23
  It's been led by these group of scientists that are down in New
• 13:26
  South Wales, Australia. They did tons of research and
• 13:30
  they found out that people that experience mutual pain have a
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  bond that's much closer than anyone else.
• 13:40
  I look at Lisa and I went when she walked on the aisle 44 years
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  ago this October. I was deeply in love with her.
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  But we've gone through a lot of pain in our marriage, externally
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  and internally, right? I love Lisa today so much more
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  than the first day I married her.
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  That pain brought us closer. Soldiers.
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  They cite that soldiers that are wounded in war together have a
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  bond that people just don't get. A mother, when she has her
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  child, will go through the greatest discomfort she'll ever
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  go through in nine months, and then she's going to go through
• 14:14
  the greatest pain she'll ever experience.
• 14:16
  You would think she would resent the child, but they actually
• 14:19
  said the bond between a mother and child is stronger than any
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  other bond that child will ever have, even the father and the
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  child, it's called the scientific term is trauma
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  bonding. So could it be that Jesus looked
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  at his bride and said, I want to be as close to you as possible,
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  therefore I'm willing to go through this.
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  Now we have to reverse it. Paul said to you, it is granted
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  not only to believe in Jesus, but to suffer for a sake.
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  Wait a minute, grant that that. Can you imagine saying to a 16
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  year old to you it's granted for your 17th birthday?
• 14:52
  You get to get a root canal. That's twisted humor.
• 14:57
  Why would Paul say it? Because the early church
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  understand the great privilege of suffering persecution.
• 15:03
  If you look at Peter and John, they were flogged.
• 15:05
  Not quite as intensive what Jesus went through with the
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  scourging and yet they came out being flogged, which is getting
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  your wet back whipped open, but not like Jesus.
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  They came out rejoicing that they were, they were counted
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  worthy to suffer shame. Peter says as Christ suffered
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  for us in the flesh, arm yourself.
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  The Bible says we will be joint heirs with him if we suffer with
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  him. Paul said that I might know him
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  and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship.
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  Listen to the word fellowship, the partnership of suffering.
• 15:35
  So here's what we got because I asked God this question.
• 15:39
  I said I'm writing this book. And I said, why will we never
• 15:43
  pull a mutiny, Try to pull a mutiny against you like Lucifer
• 15:47
  in the third of the angels did. And Lord said Lucifer was never
• 15:50
  tested in a hostile environment. And I'm like, oh, I get it.
• 15:55
  But we do pull mutinies, right? I mean you.
• 15:57
  What do you mean? Like the church?
• 15:58
  Why does the church not pull a mutiny or.
• 16:00
  So Paul makes a statement, We will ever, forever be with the
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  Lord. Jesus said, I will give you a
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  throne like my father gave me a throne and God said your throne,
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  Jesus is forever and ever, right?
• 16:11
  What in the in, in the ages to come in the new heavens and
• 16:15
  earth, right? Why will we not do what Satan
• 16:18
  did once all the new right and the Lord said because my bride
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  was tested in hostile environment.
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  And they chose they chose me and despite the test.
• 16:28
  So the Angel got a test. But you're right, the Angel
• 16:31
  wasn't it was a one moment test as I think what the theologians
• 16:34
  say, like Satan had the 1 moment as an Angel.
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  Do you serve or not serve? He said non serviam, I will not
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  serve. But he was never in a hostile
• 16:41
  environment. We're in an environment in the
• 16:43
  world that hates God. The flow of this world is
• 16:46
  according to the Prince of power of the Air.
• 16:48
  The Bible says so this world hates the things of God.
• 16:53
  It it it doesn't openly show it many times, but the course of
• 16:56
  this world is diametrically opposed.
• 16:59
  So when you look at Solomon's statement, who can find a
• 17:05
  virtuous wife? The word find is actually means
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  who can search out and literally discover her and it says this
• 17:14
  it's amazing. The heart of her husband does
• 17:16
  safely trust in her. So could it be because if you
• 17:21
  look at Jesus at the beginning of his ministry, he did the
• 17:23
  miracle at Canaan and that miracle, the Bible said people
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  began to trust in him. This is the new living
• 17:29
  translation I'm quoting. But he said, but but then it
• 17:32
  says he didn't trust people because he knew it was in the
• 17:34
  heart of people. Three years later, he looks at
• 17:38
  the 11 and he said, you're the ones that stayed with me through
• 17:43
  my trials, right? I no longer call you servants.
• 17:49
  I now call you friends because now I trust you.
• 17:51
  You stayed with me all through my trials.
• 17:53
  Yeah, they had a hiccup that night.
• 17:55
  The sanctific, I mean, that's the beauty of like this, the
• 17:58
  gift of this life. Unlike you're saying the Angel,
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  because the Angel wasn't given a lifetime of choices.
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  We were given, we are given a lifetime of choices and we can
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  choose God or not and we can suffer for God or we cannot.
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  And that's the sanctification that is our our journey to
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  heaven. I mean, what a gift that we get
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  to do it, But you're saying it makes that relationship with the
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  Lord even closer because the angels are jealous.
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  I mean, that's the, that's the thing that I've heard some
• 18:23
  theologians say the early church fathers that Satan was jealous
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  of man and what God would do for man because he, he understood
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  the salvation history, has saw enough of the picture of
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  salvation history. And he was jealous that God
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  would for a creature that he considered lower than the
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  angels, that God would take on human flesh, and that he would
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  die for. Us.
• 18:43
  This is why it says. Die and live for us.
• 18:45
  Be resurrected. Manner of love God is bestowed
• 18:48
  God Almighty, who made this entire universe would call us
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  his sons and daughters. And so when you look at Psalm
• 18:54
  mate, and says what is man When I look at the heavens that you
• 18:58
  create the stars you put in the universe with your fingers.
• 19:00
  What is that? I think it was one of the
• 19:02
  Seraphim. Every time the throne of God
• 19:05
  moves, you'll see it in Ezekiel, the four Seraphin move with the
• 19:09
  throne. I believe when God came down and
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  formed man out of the dust of the earth, I believe one of
• 19:13
  those seraphin went. What is that?
• 19:16
  That you're so mindful of him? How mindful is he?
• 19:19
  Psalm 13916 says that his thoughts towards us outnumber
• 19:23
  every grain of sand this on this planet.
• 19:25
  What are you saying that maybe that Satan, that's when Satan
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  fell, when he saw what God was doing because he was angry and
• 19:30
  he said I will not serve. I believe Satan fell before God
• 19:33
  created man. I believe that with all my
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  heart. Yes, and I believe most
• 19:38
  theologians agree with that. But I think it's one of the
• 19:40
  godly angels that are right next to his throne, overwhelmed by
• 19:44
  how much attention he's given. Because remember, he, his
• 19:47
  thoughts about you, Lila, about my wife, about me, outnumber
• 19:52
  every grain of sand in one cubic foot of sand.
• 19:55
  Scientists tell us there is 500 million to a billion grains of
• 19:59
  sand. God can't exaggerate.
• 20:03
  So that angel's blown away by the affectionate love he had for
• 20:07
  human beings. And that's overwhelming now to
• 20:12
  even call us his sons and daughters.
• 20:14
  It makes it that much more. But here's what I love about the
• 20:16
  second coming. It's about a groom being
• 20:19
  reunited with the bride he longs for.
• 20:22
  See, God not only wanted children, but he wanted a bride
• 20:25
  for a son that he, the, the son and the bride could rule the
• 20:28
  cities, the countries, the continents, the universe
• 20:33
  together. I love doing ministry with Lisa
• 20:38
  together. I I'm doing this because Lisa's
• 20:41
  in the studio. I love doing, I'd love doing
• 20:45
  life with her. I love doing ministry with her.
• 20:48
  It has challenges, but that's a fallen world.
• 20:50
  That's my, that's my fallen nature.
• 20:52
  That may create the challenges. There will be no challenges when
• 20:56
  Jesus and his bride rules the universe forever and ever and
• 20:59
  ever. So unfortunately, a lot of
• 21:03
  people in the Catholic Church, in the Protestant Church have
• 21:07
  made the second coming into an event.
• 21:10
  I believe it's so much more than that.
• 21:12
  It is a heart longing groom is coming back for his lovesick
• 21:19
  bride to be reunited forever and ever and ever.
• 21:24
  That's so it's beautiful. Well, I think they and I think
• 21:27
  the official teaching of the Catholic Church, of course,
• 21:29
  individual Catholics may have their interpretations as they
• 21:32
  would, but we part of it is having to do with the personal
• 21:35
  judgment before our Lord upon our death.
• 21:38
  Because we don't know exactly, you know, eschatology wise, how
• 21:41
  timelines will look with the new heaven and the new earth.
• 21:43
  But we do know that we were all one day face Jesus face to face
• 21:48
  and have that judgement of personal and then a final
• 21:50
  judgement. And that's really what this
• 21:53
  whole entire life is about, is what are we preparing for?
• 21:56
  Well, there's two. Different judges when we see our
• 21:58
  Lord. There's two different judgments
• 21:59
  for human beings. One's going to happen before the
• 22:02
  thousand year reign of Christ on earth.
• 22:04
  That's called the believers judgement seat.
• 22:07
  We, I think our language we use is person.
• 22:09
  The personal judgement should look it up, but it's I think
• 22:11
  we're it's the same thing we're talking about.
• 22:13
  That is more like an award ceremony.
• 22:16
  If you applied yourself, your award ceremony is going to be
• 22:18
  really cool. If you were sloppy, if you
• 22:22
  didn't apply yourself, you're going to have a little sense of
• 22:25
  regret because Jesus is going to judge us not based on our sins,
• 22:30
  because our sins have been eradicated by His blood.
• 22:34
  He's going to judge us on how we served Him according to how He
• 22:37
  called us to serve Him. So that is going to be rewarded
• 22:43
  by what the Bible calls eternal judgments.
• 22:45
  What does that mean? Because when you say judgment to
• 22:50
  the average Christian, where does their mind go?
• 22:53
  Condemnation. Well, but I think we can be
• 22:56
  condemned if we don't accept salvation.
• 22:59
  That's. The other judgment, that's for
• 23:01
  the people who didn't walk with Jesus because they didn't accept
• 23:06
  Him as their Lord and Master and Savior.
• 23:09
  And I think we're, I think the alignment to here is when you
• 23:12
  confess, when you confess your sins.
• 23:13
  And I think confession is, you know, you can go to 4 priests
• 23:16
  and confess. You can also confess your sins
• 23:17
  any day, all day to our Lord. He's always waiting to hear you
• 23:21
  and always with you. When when the Lord forgives a
• 23:25
  sin like you said, it's gone. It's it's gone.
• 23:28
  The Lord has no. He.
• 23:30
  Buries it exactly so it's interesting the personal
• 23:34
  judgement is not so much a record of every sin because if
• 23:37
  you have, if you've asked for forgiveness, you've been
• 23:40
  forgiven. There's nothing to record
• 23:42
  anymore. But it is about yes, did you did
• 23:46
  I know you? I mean, I think about our Holy
• 23:49
  Scripture and the Lord saying well, you, you did all these
• 23:52
  things in my name. Did you know me and what was
• 23:54
  that? Did you live the life that the
• 23:56
  Lord had potentially there for you in terms of what you could
• 24:00
  do for the Kingdom, how you could use your talents and or
• 24:02
  what didn't you do? And it's all very mysterious
• 24:04
  because I, I would actually want to look that up.
• 24:06
  Like how much of it is sins of what about sins of omission?
• 24:08
  Because how, maybe, how possibly can you confess endless sins of
• 24:12
  omission? I mean, I think that's what
• 24:13
  you're speaking to, right? We're using different language.
• 24:15
  For it becomes really confusing if you lump the two together.
• 24:18
  The White Throne judgment of the people that will not be saved.
• 24:21
  These are the people that tried to earn a relationship with God
• 24:23
  by their own works, their own merit or didn't want a
• 24:26
  relationship with God. Or you've got people that say
• 24:28
  confess Jesus, but really in works they denied him, right?
• 24:33
  They're the ones that he says depart from me.
• 24:35
  I never knew you. So there's no relationship.
• 24:38
  The believers judgement is interesting.
• 24:40
  It's found in Second Corinthians chapter 5 verses 789 and 10,
• 24:45
  where Paul said when we're absent from the body, we're
• 24:47
  present with the Lord, right? So he's only talking to real
• 24:50
  true believers. But then he said, for we now who
• 24:54
  is we, the people that when they're absent from the body are
• 24:56
  going to be present with the Lord, For we must all appear
• 24:59
  before the judgement seat of Christ.
• 25:01
  The word judgement there is the Greek word Bama.
• 25:05
  It's actually a platform where they would use the judges would
• 25:08
  use to award the athletes in the Olympic, in the Olympics back in
• 25:11
  the in the days of Greece, that's where that name came
• 25:15
  from. So Paul uses that name that it's
• 25:18
  like an award ceremony. So we will must all appear
• 25:21
  before the judgement seat of Christ that each one may receive
• 25:23
  the works done in the body, the body of Christ, whether good or
• 25:28
  bad. Now, bad's a terrible, terrible
• 25:31
  translation. The word should have been
• 25:34
  translated and it is in some translations worthless, whether
• 25:39
  good or worthless. What does the word worthless
• 25:42
  mean? It means it didn't have any
• 25:43
  eternal consequences or they reach, here's what you just
• 25:47
  said, retreated from assignment. So in other words, it's what we
• 25:53
  should have done, what he, we knew he was putting in our heart
• 25:56
  to do that we chose not to do. That's retreating from
• 26:00
  assignment. And Paul makes it clear to the
• 26:03
  Corinthian church that there is going to be people that actually
• 26:06
  get saved, but they're going to come through like fire.
• 26:10
  Purgatory. There you go.
• 26:12
  That might be where they. Yeah, Where?
• 26:14
  Where? You guys, that's where we, we
• 26:16
  guys, yeah, 2000 years of it. But yeah, no, it's, it's 2. 1000
• 26:19
  years of it. Right, but it's but it's true
• 26:21
  because you're what you're saying exactly.
• 26:22
  Let me, let me tell me if you think this is, this is tracking
• 26:26
  with what you're, what you're explaining and how you wrote in
• 26:29
  your in your book believers judgment, which you're speaking
• 26:32
  to. And this is from our friends
• 26:33
  over at truthly. So they take the catechism, the
• 26:35
  church fathers and doctors and all this theology and they have
• 26:37
  this beautiful program for you know, you can dialogue with it.
• 26:40
  It's it's AI, but trusted right through truthfully.
• 26:43
  And they say believers judgment, or what is more commonly
• 26:47
  referred to in Catholic theology as particular judgment.
• 26:49
  I said personal, but particular is the immediate encounter each
• 26:53
  soul has with God at the moment of death.
• 26:55
  This judgment determines a soul's eternal destiny entrants
• 26:58
  into heaven either directly or through pure purification
• 27:01
  through the fire, purgatory, or damnation in hell.
• 27:04
  Because that soul rejected God at particular judgment, a
• 27:07
  person's actions, faith, and relationship with God throughout
• 27:10
  their earthly life are taken into account.
• 27:12
  This is a profound moment of truth where one's life is fully
• 27:15
  revealed and evaluated in the light of God's love and justice.
• 27:18
  This contrasts with general judgment, which occurs at the
• 27:21
  end of time when the Christ returns in His glory.
• 27:24
  At that point, All Souls are reunited with their bodies and
• 27:26
  all the final destinies of all will be publicly revealed as
• 27:29
  part of God's Providence. Reflecting on this particular
• 27:32
  judgement. How do you change your life?
• 27:33
  How are you going to change your life?
• 27:34
  It's asking me Lila, I'm going to pray more and do more
• 27:38
  actually respond to the Holy Spirit more honestly.
• 27:40
  That's what convicts me because you get these inspirations of
• 27:43
  the Holy Spirit to do to to follow the Lord more closely,
• 27:46
  sacrifice for more be take more risks for him and then you love
• 27:49
  your little routines and you don't listen Lila anyways, but
• 27:51
  what did you I'm curious is that is this on in line with your.
• 27:56
  I, I may not agree on the timing of of what they're saying, but I
• 28:00
  will say this because I don't want people afraid.
• 28:02
  I'm on this podcast. I deeply love Lisa.
• 28:08
  I do things for Lisa. If she can't make dinner, I'll
• 28:11
  make it. Sometimes I may rub her feet
• 28:14
  while we're watching TVI love doing those things because I
• 28:20
  love her. It's it the same thing
• 28:24
  translates over to our bridegroom.
• 28:26
  We absolutely love him. We do it out of a heart filled
• 28:31
  with love for him. And he one day is going to say,
• 28:35
  I want to thank you for doing this.
• 28:37
  So when I do nice things for Lisa, I don't do it to get her
• 28:40
  rewards, but she rewards me. It may be affection.
• 28:45
  It may be I'm going to make him a great meal tomorrow night.
• 28:48
  He covered for me tonight while I was doing that podcast.
• 28:52
  I don't do it to get those rewards, but she wants to
• 28:55
  express her gratitude from to me.
• 28:58
  Jesus, I believe, believe it or not, I mean, this is crazy.
• 29:02
  You think we should do nothing but thank him for the rest of
• 29:07
  eternity for what? I just shared the briefly what
• 29:10
  he went through right, But he actually said I'm going to serve
• 29:14
  them. I'm going to have them sit down
• 29:17
  and I'm going to serve them. And you're like, what?
• 29:22
  And it's just like he will want. He's going to give us a crown.
• 29:26
  I've crown of righteousness to everyone that's eagerly looking
• 29:29
  forward to his return. You're like, I want you to share
• 29:33
  my throne as my father gave me a throne.
• 29:35
  I want you to share a throne to you who obey me to the end.
• 29:38
  This is what he said to the Church of Laodicea and to the
• 29:42
  Church of Thyatira. It's remarkable when you think
• 29:47
  about it. I mean, it's like I when I'm
• 29:50
  praying in the morning, Lila, Isaac, God, you could have made
• 29:52
  us slaves and we would have been so much better off than where we
• 29:54
  were. But you've actually called the
• 29:56
  sons and daughters, and you actually want to reward us.
• 30:00
  It's the incredible goodness of God.
• 30:03
  It's just, yeah, it's the awe. We should have awe for God.
• 30:05
  That's another book of yours, all the awe of God.
• 30:07
  But it's it's the incredible mercy and love of God.
• 30:11
  And it reminds me too of, you know, the our role is to live
• 30:15
  and joy, peace, you know, the fruits of the Spirit and to be
• 30:19
  enjoy, I mean, enjoyment of these spiritual realities of
• 30:22
  what the Lord has done for us. And I think a lot of Christian
• 30:25
  life today is distracted, is dwelling on what is not.
• 30:28
  You know, the good and the true about our Lord is not is not, is
• 30:31
  not treating our Lord like the lover of our soul that he is.
• 30:35
  And instead we just get caught up every day with whatever we're
• 30:38
  dealing with. And I think that's, you know,
• 30:41
  that I do. I do think that's a life of a
• 30:42
  lot of Christians today. We forget the goodness of the
• 30:45
  Lord. When I was engaged to Lisa, I
• 30:48
  was met up with a lot of daily responsibilities and pressures,
• 30:52
  but I was carrying her right here.
• 30:55
  Couldn't wait for that wedding day three months later.
• 30:58
  Couldn't wait for that wedding day a month later.
• 31:01
  I believe we're supposed to be that bride that our affections
• 31:05
  are set on that day because you'll find 6 times in the New
• 31:11
  Testament, Paul said the crown of righteousness is for all
• 31:14
  those who are eagerly looking forward, eagerly looking forward
• 31:17
  to his appearing. I look as a kid at Christmas
• 31:21
  time. I hated Christmas Eve night when
• 31:24
  I was five years old because I couldn't sleep.
• 31:26
  I was so eagerly looking forward to opening up presents the next
• 31:29
  day. When my parents put up the tree,
• 31:31
  I was counting the days, sometimes the hours until that
• 31:36
  big morning was going to arrive. Same thing when I'm engaged.
• 31:39
  Lisa went up to Indiana. I was in Dallas.
• 31:42
  I'm I mean, it was longest two months of my life.
• 31:45
  Lila I every day seem like a week, every week seem like a a
• 31:48
  month. But I remember when we were
• 31:51
  united in Indianapolis airport. I can still close my eyes and
• 31:55
  see it. I remember the dress she had on.
• 31:56
  It was a, it was a, a, a, a beige dress, kind of off white
• 32:01
  dress. She was so gorgeous.
• 32:03
  I hadn't seen her in two months. And you know, we didn't have
• 32:06
  cell phones so we couldn't do the FaceTime and all that.
• 32:08
  But I look so forward to that day.
• 32:11
  And then when she hit that back door with her dad and she had
• 32:13
  this gorgeous dress on, I was overwhelmed.
• 32:16
  I think that's the way Jesus looks at us, Lila.
• 32:19
  He's just looking forward to the day when the father looks at him
• 32:22
  and says, go get your bride. I mean, when you really put that
• 32:27
  in your heart and you set your sights on that, you are eagerly
• 32:32
  looking forward to his appearing.
• 32:35
  It's really interesting. Paul writes in Philippians.
• 32:37
  He said there are many, and I say this with tears, whose
• 32:41
  behavior shows that they have set their minds on things of the
• 32:44
  earth. So then you look at John and
• 32:47
  John says that he we will see him as he is when he's revealed.
• 32:52
  And all who have this eager expectation purify themselves
• 32:57
  even as he is pure. So the eagerness gives us the
• 33:01
  ability to purify ourselves from this life.
• 33:05
  Just like the eagerness for my wedding when Lisa was gone two
• 33:08
  months. I couldn't care how gorgeous the
• 33:11
  girl was in front of me. I couldn't care I was so
• 33:16
  fixated. My sights were so set on this
• 33:19
  girl, this amazing girl I'm about to marry other girls lost.
• 33:25
  They weren't they they weren't they weren't I I wasn't
• 33:28
  attracted to them is what I'm saying.
• 33:30
  And so I was able to engage with them.
• 33:32
  I was able to do my everyday affairs, but my heart was so
• 33:35
  longing for that day. This is the way a believer is to
• 33:39
  live because this is what a Colossians means when it says if
• 33:42
  you're raised with Christ from the dead, then set your
• 33:44
  affections, set your sights on other translation says on the
• 33:48
  things above on the realities of heaven.
• 33:51
  Another translation says think about these things.
• 33:54
  Remember Jesus said the mat the the the one who says my Lord
• 33:58
  delays is coming begins to eat, drink and beat fellow servants.
• 34:02
  So when you have this eager expectation, it gives you the
• 34:05
  power to walk in purity and holiness amidst a crooked world.
• 34:10
  But when you say the Lord delays is coming and you put it off and
• 34:13
  put it off odd hasn't happened in 2000 years is not going to
• 34:16
  happen in my lifetime. Now you're going to
• 34:18
  automatically gravitate to being more fleshly.
• 34:20
  Or when you don't consider your mortality, because I think
• 34:23
  there's this, you know, remember your death, remember your death.
• 34:26
  If we don't remember that, you know, eternity is a second away.
• 34:30
  Eternity is here. And instead we get distracted
• 34:33
  like you're saying. And you know, the Lord's
• 34:35
  delayed. I, I'm, I'm going to be like,
• 34:37
  I'm not going to think about the fact that this is not all there
• 34:39
  is. Like this is all I'm going to
• 34:41
  pretend like this is all there is.
• 34:42
  I should say I'm not going to think about the fact that
• 34:44
  there's eternity then. Yeah.
• 34:46
  I mean, it's so easy to fall into the pit of just rejecting
• 34:49
  our Lord in the daily, even if you're technically like, oh, I
• 34:51
  believe in God, I'm a Christian or whatever it is.
• 34:53
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• 36:41
  I've got to ask you though, about when you said you had this
• 36:44
  fear of God that this like planted in your tender heart.
• 36:48
  How old were you with this priest saying this thing about
• 36:50
  math? How old was this?
• 36:52
  I, I, I, I remember having a fear of God as a young boy.
• 36:57
  Oh, that the, oh, in that third, I was third grade, yes.
• 37:00
  So it wasn't like awe of God, like he's so amazing.
• 37:02
  It was more like being scared. I'm scared of health.
• 37:04
  Yeah, it wasn't the healthy fear of God, it was the unhealthy
• 37:07
  fear of God. And I I think I've heard other
• 37:09
  stories. I was talking with Perez Hilton.
• 37:12
  Yeah, he's the gossip columnist, you know, in the same was in the
• 37:15
  same sex marriage. You know, I don't think he is
• 37:17
  anymore anyways, not walking with God, you know, in any in
• 37:20
  any public sense or any sense that I can see.
• 37:23
  I mean, he wasn't sharing like I'm a Christian or anything, but
• 37:25
  he went to a Jesuit school. He was sharing and they told
• 37:29
  him, oh, anybody who's not Catholics going to hell.
• 37:31
  And he thought the. Way I used to think when I was
• 37:33
  five years old. Right, but I think I don't know
• 37:36
  if you guys are similar age, I think that that was a generation
• 37:39
  of Catholic practical teaching especially in the United States
• 37:42
  you. Know what I used to think when I
• 37:43
  was? Just like this.
• 37:44
  Going to Catholic Mass, I think I've watched the people at the
• 37:47
  Methodist and the Presbyterian all I think they're wasting
• 37:49
  their time. They should have slept in
• 37:50
  because we're the only ones going in.
• 37:53
  But that's so bad because because that's not the Catholic
• 37:56
  Church's teaching. So I rebuke that.
• 37:58
  That is not the Catholic Church. Is not the Catholic we don't
• 38:01
  know who's going to be in heaven or hell we do not we can we hope
• 38:04
  I mean we hope for heaven obviously and we want to you
• 38:07
  know help other people know the goodness of God and and tell
• 38:10
  about Jesus Christ we. Can be confident in ourselves.
• 38:12
  Confidence, yes, we can have confidence, but to say someone
• 38:15
  is going to go to hell is completely ridiculous.
• 38:18
  And so but I understand I think the energy under that was they
• 38:21
  wanted you to take Mass seriously, but instead of
• 38:24
  showing you the goodness of what the what this was.
• 38:27
  This is Jesus Christ, body, blood, soul and divunity and the
• 38:29
  Eucharist is just what we believe he loves you.
• 38:31
  But you so beautifully described John that everybody should just
• 38:35
  replay and listen to about what the Lord did for us out of his
• 38:38
  love for us because we were his bride.
• 38:40
  That that was the message your heart was longing for and you
• 38:43
  had it so that just it breaks. I want to apologize on behalf
• 38:47
  of, you know, not that I am anybody to be able to do that,
• 38:49
  but I'm blessed with the with the my generation for whatever
• 38:54
  it is that the priest, because I was raised evangelical, became
• 38:57
  Catholic and the priest that I know they were able to share
• 38:59
  what the church really teaches about salvation.
• 39:02
  And see, I was raised Catholic and now I'm evangelical, but I.
• 39:05
  Love all but you are raised with the real Catholic in terms of.
• 39:08
  It's like I look at you and I'm like I'm looking at my sister in
• 39:12
  Christ. Of course, and you are my
• 39:13
  brother. Yes, so I think I I was saying
• 39:17
  this before the program started. I believe all true believers are
• 39:21
  are are really know each other like you can.
• 39:25
  I'm I'm genuine in the in the I'm in the presence of a Jesus
• 39:29
  follower, right, You know that you know that here we we know
• 39:34
  this and and I think even John wrote about it that we would
• 39:37
  recognize one another, right. Jesus said you recognize each
• 39:41
  other by your loved one for another.
• 39:42
  What we're seeing right now in our society, there's so much
• 39:46
  offense, there's so much tribalism.
• 39:49
  That's not of Jesus. Hatred.
• 39:51
  Yeah, there's hatred, there's betrayals, there's it's so
• 39:55
  slandered and it's it's unfortunately done in the name
• 40:00
  of Christianity, in under the the banner of Christianity.
• 40:04
  And there is none of that in the true Kingdom of God.
• 40:06
  There's none of that. So just as you have.
• 40:10
  Things that happened in the past, like The Crusaders and all
• 40:12
  that kind of stuff, you're going to have things done today that
• 40:15
  have the label of, Oh yeah, I'm a Christian, but yet I'm
• 40:20
  slandering people. I'm dividing people.
• 40:23
  I'm, I, I'm, I'm against these people because they're not my
• 40:26
  tribe. That's that's not of God.
• 40:29
  I do think fear of God, the wonder and the the beauty of
• 40:34
  God, but we should reject and fear sin.
• 40:36
  I mean, sin is sin separates us from God.
• 40:38
  We don't want to be separated from our our Lord Jesus Christ.
• 40:41
  So there is in sense a healthy disgust or rejection of e-mail
• 40:45
  that that's a natural sense that we should have that, oh, we
• 40:49
  don't want that get away from me.
• 40:51
  We don't want that. We want what is what is pure and
• 40:53
  good and true. You want our Lord.
• 40:55
  And I think about, you know, when Saint Paul talks about in
• 40:58
  Corinthians how you can go preach in the name of the Lord,
• 41:02
  You can prophecy in the name of the Lord.
• 41:05
  And if you don't have love, it's it's like a clanging symbol.
• 41:08
  It's, it's the Lord really in you.
• 41:10
  And then what would the Lord say at your when you meet him?
• 41:13
  And he says, here I was Lord, I was this good crusader for you,
• 41:15
  but he's like, did you really know me?
• 41:18
  Did you really know love? And I think that's a real good
• 41:23
  word for us to remember every day to hold these things of
• 41:26
  yeah, speak the truth, know the truth, know your theology, you
• 41:29
  know, stand up for what's right morally, all of these things.
• 41:32
  But are you doing it animated by that sacrificial humble, I am
• 41:36
  the servant of all love that Jesus Christ literally gave and
• 41:39
  died for us with or is it animated with some something
• 41:43
  else. God forbid pride, which we're
• 41:44
  all you know, tempted to, but that's the daily examination of
• 41:48
  conscience of saying Lord and and and like you said, your
• 41:51
  prayer time talking to the Lord and like laying it all out,
• 41:54
  exposing our hearts to him. You know, today love has been so
• 42:01
  perverted in our society. Love is just about, you know,
• 42:07
  giving me what I want and giving you what you want.
• 42:11
  Love is kind, love is tender. Love is not parade itself.
• 42:14
  It's not boastful. It believes the best in every
• 42:18
  person. But this is the love of God that
• 42:21
  we keep His commandments because He doesn't have love.
• 42:26
  He is love. So therefore his commandments
• 42:28
  are rooted in His very essence. So Isaiah tells us God speaks
• 42:35
  through the prophet Isaiah that the day will come when they're
• 42:38
  going to call evil good, and they're going to call good evil.
• 42:42
  So in other words, what is really good, what is really the
• 42:44
  true love of God is going to be called evil, and what is
• 42:47
  actually really evil and destroying people's lives is
• 42:50
  going to be called good. And we're living in that day.
• 42:55
  And this the, the reason we're living in this day is we remove
• 42:59
  prayer, we remove the Bible from our schools in the 1960s.
• 43:02
  We've gone 320 year generation since.
• 43:05
  And now we have a complete loss of a moral compass.
• 43:08
  And when I look at the garden, the garden had these two main
• 43:11
  trees, right Lila, the tree of life, God is perfect love.
• 43:16
  He's my creator. He knows what makes me.
• 43:17
  He knows what breaks me. When I was building my kids toys
• 43:21
  when they were little toddlers, if I didn't follow the
• 43:24
  instruction book, the guy that created the toy, I often made a
• 43:28
  huge mistake, thought I was finished, but it didn't work.
• 43:32
  When I got the instruction manual and I deconstructed it,
• 43:35
  build it the way the creator said to create it, do it, Oh my
• 43:38
  gosh, it worked. That's the truth.
• 43:40
  I had my husband do that. I don't even try.
• 43:42
  But every man, every man that's listening to us will relate to
• 43:45
  what I just said. But that's the tree of life.
• 43:47
  The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is interesting.
• 43:50
  When she saw it was good and it would make her wise doesn't say
• 43:53
  when she saw it was evil and it would make her wicked.
• 43:56
  The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is when I choose
• 43:58
  what is good for me outside of what God says.
• 44:02
  When we got to sin nature after falling in the garden, God gave
• 44:05
  his commands for two reasons. Number one, to show us that with
• 44:10
  this in nature we could never earn a relationship with Him.
• 44:13
  It proved it's impossible. You can never be good enough to
• 44:17
  earn a relationship with God. It would have to be given as a
• 44:20
  gift. That's called grace.
• 44:22
  The other reason God gave us those commands is to protect us
• 44:25
  from ourselves. Because the human nature,
• 44:28
  because now it's the sin nature is going to gravitate.
• 44:32
  If it's not directed by the commandments of God, it's going
• 44:35
  to be, it's going to be directed to choosing things that are bad
• 44:39
  for it. In other words, I'm going to
• 44:42
  naturally gravitate to what will damage me.
• 44:46
  And that's what's happening in our society.
• 44:48
  We've pushed God's Word, his statues, his commands.
• 44:53
  We've pushed it away. I know how to choose what's good
• 44:56
  for me. You know, you see this in Israel
• 44:58
  when they went utterly corrupt in the days of the Judges.
• 45:01
  The Bible said the man, every man did what was right in his
• 45:03
  own eyes, and he just did it. That's what we're doing today.
• 45:06
  We're doing whatever's right in our own eyes, not realizing we
• 45:10
  don't have the ability with us in nature to know what is good
• 45:14
  for me. Only our Creator who made us
• 45:18
  knows what's really good for us, and so those who love Him, and
• 45:22
  they are so aware of His love for them, are able to choose
• 45:26
  this. I see you mentioned the Bible's
• 45:29
  being taken out of the schools in the 60s and I I don't know
• 45:32
  enough about that history to know exactly how much it was
• 45:35
  taught before that. I'm sure it was taught to some
• 45:37
  degree. You ready for this?
• 45:38
  Because American education system has always it's it's
• 45:41
  changed so much in the last 102. 100 years Supreme Court ruled
• 45:47
  unanimously, unanimously that if a public high school in America
• 45:52
  didn't teach the Bible, they would not get government
• 45:54
  funding. Wow, 1960 we pull it out of the
• 45:59
  school and say it's separation of church and state.
• 46:01
  Well, and you go to the Public Library and they have yoga
• 46:04
  books. They're teaching about, you
• 46:06
  know, these rituals that are like Pagan and indigenous.
• 46:11
  They're teaching about horoscopes.
• 46:13
  And there's nothing, virtually nothing about true faith, about
• 46:17
  Christianity. It's a it's, it's a huge issue.
• 46:20
  I think about though the history of like American history, but
• 46:24
  then also the understanding of who is God, what is
• 46:27
  Christianity. I do think that the last 400,
• 46:31
  you know, the postmodern world, the modern world of modern
• 46:34
  thought, the reject atheism, the rise of atheism, Nietzsche, all
• 46:37
  of this because Christians weren't as united on theology.
• 46:42
  We were easy pickings for the culture.
• 46:46
  And I think when Christians unite on theology and moral
• 46:49
  theology as a core part of that right, then we can be stronger.
• 46:53
  But if we are not aligned, if there's some Christians that
• 46:56
  say, yeah, gay marriage is okay, yeah, abortion is okay, you
• 46:58
  know, Yeah, you know, sex outside of or these sorts of
• 47:01
  sexual activities are okay, this is fine.
• 47:03
  It all starts to split apart at the students.
• 47:05
  Transgender. Yeah.
• 47:06
  You can be born in the wrong body or you have to accept this,
• 47:09
  whatever. It's complete chaos.
• 47:12
  And, you know, there's Christians that stand firm
• 47:14
  against that, of course. But then people say I'm
• 47:16
  Christian and I believe this and that and this.
• 47:18
  And it's like, what do Christians actually believe?
• 47:20
  And how do you know you're right and this guy over there isn't
• 47:23
  right? I can say I'm Russian.
• 47:26
  I'm a Russian citizen. I'm not Russian citizen.
• 47:29
  I'm not Russian. Italian, right?
• 47:31
  Yeah, I'm the type. But what I'm saying is, but when
• 47:34
  you drill down, you find out and you start asking core questions,
• 47:38
  you're going to discover I'm really not a Russian citizen.
• 47:41
  I could say the same thing about a Spanish citizen.
• 47:44
  You're going to drill down. There's so many people that say
• 47:46
  I'm a Christian, but Jesus said you'll know us will know us.
• 47:52
  He let me let me just quote him directly.
• 47:54
  He who has my commandments and keeps them, it is he or she who
• 47:59
  really loves me and I will love him or her and I will come to
• 48:04
  them and I will manifest myself to him.
• 48:08
  So if you tell me you're because the Bible says in the last days
• 48:13
  you're going to have many people say I'm a follower of Jesus, yet
• 48:17
  they're going to deny him by the way they live.
• 48:21
  Or by what they preach, right? Or by what they preach.
• 48:24
  It's not the full truth, right? It's a compromise.
• 48:26
  Jude says in Jude 1/4, he says that they're going to sleep,
• 48:30
  slip into our churches unnoticed.
• 48:33
  This is really amazing. And they're going to say the
• 48:36
  grace of God allows us to live an immoral life.
• 48:40
  That is Jude 1/4. That is what we're living
• 48:42
  through. See, in the days of Jude, who
• 48:44
  wrote that you couldn't come into a church and say, Hey, I am
• 48:51
  a Shintoist or whatever, right? That the church would have gone,
• 48:54
  no, you're, you're not in here. How do they creep in unnoticed?
• 48:58
  They profess to know God. This is Titus 115 and 16.
• 49:03
  They profess to know God. So they say with their mouths, I
• 49:07
  have a relationship with Jesus, but they deny him by the way
• 49:11
  they live and what they preach. So they suddenly come in and
• 49:17
  they pervert. They twist the very word of God
• 49:22
  to their own fleshly desires, and what they believe others
• 49:26
  will, it will will cause others to accept them.
• 49:30
  This is where when you talk about the bride, we are the
• 49:33
  bride, but then also the church is the bride and we are members
• 49:35
  of the church. We're the part of the body of
• 49:36
  the church protecting the deposit of faith is so key.
• 49:42
  And that is the that is the the crisis, right?
• 49:45
  And I do see this. I see it within the Catholic
• 49:47
  Church and people trying to pervert and thankfully they
• 49:50
  can't teach change the doctrine, but they still like try to do
• 49:53
  their little thing, but they can't change the doctrine.
• 49:55
  But then in practice they're doing this.
• 49:57
  So so it's scandalous for people when people see this, they're
• 50:00
  like, what is this guy doing over there?
• 50:01
  He says he's Catholic. He's saying this stuff.
• 50:03
  Certainly outside of the Catholic Church.
• 50:04
  You see it all over the place. People are some people living
• 50:07
  what is true morally, they're speaking it.
• 50:09
  They're they're true blue. But then you have these weird
• 50:11
  things, you know, you know, in the Methodist Church or some of
• 50:15
  these other denominations, there's parts of the domination
• 50:17
  that's split off that becomes, you know, pro gay marriage or
• 50:20
  abortion's OK or whatever it is that I wasn't planning to go
• 50:24
  here in this interview. So if this is uncomfortable, we
• 50:26
  can cut this out. What?
• 50:28
  What would it take for you to be 1 again with the Catholic
• 50:35
  Church? Well, that's interesting.
• 50:37
  What? What would it need to change?
• 50:39
  I feel like when God called me out and it was very miraculous
• 50:44
  how he did, he didn't say you're to cut off the Catholic Church.
• 50:50
  He said I've called you to my body, not just one section of
• 50:54
  it. So Lila, just as I would
• 50:58
  happily, happily said yes to come on, if a evangelical
• 51:04
  tomorrow calls me and I know they're walking with Jesus like
• 51:07
  you are, I'm going to say yes. I, Lisa and I both felt like God
• 51:12
  called us to the body, not to one stream of the body.
• 51:15
  And I look at the Catholics as it's a stream.
• 51:17
  It's a big stream. It's it's actually a river.
• 51:19
  Then you got the smaller streams, right?
• 51:21
  You've got, you've got streams of the Methodists and the
• 51:23
  Presbyterians and the Lutherans, evangelicals, the Pentecostals
• 51:30
  to me. I'll, I'll give you an example.
• 51:34
  My Catholic priest was my drinking buddy in college.
• 51:38
  He could drink 16 beers and I'd be under the table after 8
• 51:42
  beers. And he loved me.
• 51:46
  I mean, just love me. I was like his prized Catholic
• 51:49
  boy in the fraternity because I went to Mass every single Sunday
• 51:53
  when I, when I accept, when I receive Jesus Christ as my Lord,
• 51:56
  master and Savior. I, I was completely transformed.
• 51:59
  I was changed. I didn't want to drink and get
• 52:00
  drunk anymore. He's like, what's going on?
• 52:03
  Then I started Bible study in our fraternity and he was our
• 52:05
  house advisor. He was, he was infuriated.
• 52:10
  He, he got up because he actually got up in front of the
• 52:14
  entire, I'm going to tell you, he got up in front of the entire
• 52:17
  campus. And when I say entire campus,
• 52:19
  I'm talking about all the Catholics on campus.
• 52:20
  There was 5000 out of 34,000 students, 5000 went to, went to
• 52:25
  the church on the, on the campus, the Catholic Church that
• 52:28
  he was one of the priests of. He got up and warned the whole
• 52:31
  campus about me. He said there's a young man
• 52:33
  holding the Bible study. They're performing exorcisms,
• 52:36
  which we weren't. And he said stay away.
• 52:38
  Well, that was the greatest advertisement.
• 52:40
  All these people started coming in and I remember he really like
• 52:46
  started same thing persecuting me, saying things about me.
• 52:52
  He actually I'm I'm I'm going to I'm going to go so far as to say
• 52:55
  this. Tell me my wife's grandmother
• 52:57
  was the house mother for the sorority next door and they were
• 53:02
  drinking buddies. OK.
• 53:04
  The priest and the. Priest, because we were right
• 53:06
  next door to each other. But where is this by the way?
• 53:07
  Is this in California or where? Oh, it was in.
• 53:10
  It was at Purdue University in West Lafayette, IN.
• 53:13
  Well, when he found out that I was engaged to Lisa, he looked
• 53:19
  at Lisa's grandmother and said he's gay.
• 53:22
  He was just trying to do whatever he could, right?
• 53:25
  So. I'm so sorry, no.
• 53:27
  No, no, hold on. No, I really appreciate you
• 53:29
  sharing that. And well, OK, so now I write a
• 53:35
  letter to my second grade teacher.
• 53:39
  Mother, mother is Sister Madonna.
• 53:43
  She was the mother superior of the convent.
• 53:47
  So this is a this is this is a lady who carried a lot of
• 53:50
  authority and she happened to be my second grade teacher.
• 53:53
  I said, I'm just going to tell her Sister Madonna, I found
• 53:57
  Jesus. My life has totally changed.
• 54:00
  I've been born again. I love the word of God.
• 54:02
  I have a hunger for it. Now I'm thinking, oh gosh, she
• 54:05
  going to let me have it like he's let me have it right.
• 54:08
  She writes me back. She goes, praise God, you found
• 54:11
  Jesus. I've been praying for you since
• 54:13
  you've been in second grade. This is like making my day and
• 54:16
  it's just the most beautiful letter.
• 54:18
  So I'm like, OK, I got to go see her.
• 54:21
  So on my way up to marry Lisa Ozark Airlines, this is really
• 54:26
  going back went through Saint Louis.
• 54:28
  She was now way up in the French Francescan order of the nuns in
• 54:34
  Saint Louis. And I said, would you meet me?
• 54:36
  She said yes. So she comes to the airport and
• 54:41
  I, I, we, you know, we reunite. We talked for like 2 hours and I
• 54:44
  finally said Sister Madonna. I said I, I'm just so troubled.
• 54:47
  I said Father Phil just loved me.
• 54:50
  I mean, we were so close. And when I got saved, he tried
• 54:54
  to destroy me. And she said, oh, you know, I
• 54:59
  said I was, I was, no, no, wait a minute.
• 55:01
  I said I was so baffled by your response.
• 55:04
  Compared to his response. What's the difference?
• 55:08
  She said, oh, you know, John, She's she's she's smiling.
• 55:12
  And I said, I think I know, but I want to hear it out of your
• 55:15
  mouth. She goes, I know Jesus
• 55:18
  personally. He doesn't.
• 55:21
  She said, do you know why I'm still a nun in the Catholic
• 55:23
  Church? Because God called me to the
• 55:26
  Catholic Church. He's called me to reach the nuns
• 55:28
  and the priests who act don't have a relationship with Jesus.
• 55:33
  Now do you know that she kept up with us for years?
• 55:36
  She came over to our house for dinner and or she came to our
• 55:40
  ministry. Excuse me, she she used to come
• 55:42
  to our house for dinner before I got married.
• 55:44
  She came to our ministry. She read our books, shared our
• 55:48
  books with others and was so proud of me as as her second.
• 55:54
  Grade, I mean, because everything you're sharing and
• 55:58
  this is again, I appreciate you. Just there's no agenda with this
• 56:01
  conversation. I know where we started, like
• 56:03
  let's see where the Holy Spirit goes and you've got this amazing
• 56:04
  book out on all of this. But when I when I became
• 56:09
  Catholic, it wasn't about I'm Catholic.
• 56:10
  Now I reject Protestants, you know, or whatever, because it
• 56:15
  was Protestantism for me was never about protesting Catholic.
• 56:17
  It was just about Jesus, right? And then it wasn't about, well,
• 56:20
  now I'm here for the Catholics. I'm just going to go do a
• 56:22
  podcast for the Catholics. Live action is obviously
• 56:24
  ecumenical where every, you know, every faith background is
• 56:27
  welcome. And our ministry, the public
• 56:29
  ministry is for everyone regardless of your faith
• 56:31
  background. But it's not, I don't see it as
• 56:34
  joining a club or a sect or a denomination.
• 56:37
  Instead, it's about fundamentals of how do we draw closer to our
• 56:42
  Lord and then go out and make disciples of all nations, right?
• 56:45
  And unfortunately, culturally, like you're describing with this
• 56:48
  priest, there's so much chaos, like people that are not really
• 56:51
  living the Holy Spirit. They're not in relationship with
• 56:54
  Jesus like you're describing. But the sacraments, baptism is
• 56:57
  still real. I know you.
• 56:58
  We both believe this. The Eucharist, I believe, is
• 57:01
  still real, it's still Jesus. He's, he's, you know, not in a
• 57:04
  church far from here in the Blessed Sacrament.
• 57:05
  He can still feed us. He's still with us.
• 57:07
  He can be with us in the Holy Spirit everywhere we go.
• 57:10
  And so it's not so much about like what we're rejecting or how
• 57:12
  we're defining ourselves. I see it more of just okay,
• 57:15
  we're getting to receive the Eucharist.
• 57:17
  We're getting to go to holy Mass as its highest form of worship.
• 57:20
  It's the wedding feast and we're getting to see it here, you
• 57:23
  know, on earth and be a part of this.
• 57:25
  It's it's incredible. We can go every day.
• 57:27
  And it's also about the deposit of theological the theological
• 57:32
  foundations for Christians so that there is a ultimately
• 57:36
  someone who calls the final shot in mother church instead of
• 57:39
  everybody saying, Oh, my interpretation versus yours on
• 57:42
  foundations around faith and morals.
• 57:44
  We know, OK, this is the, this is the right way.
• 57:47
  Instead of, oh, I have to figure it all out by myself every
• 57:49
  single day, have to wake up and figure it out again.
• 57:52
  You know, there's 2000 years of tradition saying this is what
• 57:54
  the church teaches on sex, on life, on these theological
• 57:57
  realities. So I think, I think because of
• 58:00
  the way, I don't know, do you, it, it sounds to me because of
• 58:03
  these horrible experiences you had, not all of them, but some
• 58:07
  of them. I didn't leave the Catholic
• 58:08
  Church because of the horrible experiences.
• 58:10
  I left because it was a miraculous way.
• 58:12
  God showed me it was so miraculous.
• 58:14
  I don't want to take the time to share it.
• 58:16
  But I will say that when I, if I was, if I was in a community
• 58:23
  that all the Catholics in the community are like you and your
• 58:26
  team and all the evangelicals were like hypocritical, who
• 58:33
  would be my real community? Be the ones that love Jesus.
• 58:37
  So you've just, you just rattled off things that I happen to
• 58:41
  probably not agree with if we went down there, but I don't
• 58:45
  need to go down that road because they're minor.
• 58:48
  You mean about the Eucharist? They're minor.
• 58:51
  What what is major to me is that you love Jesus Christ and you
• 58:57
  see him as the risen Son of God and your salvation comes through
• 59:03
  him who was hundred 100% man and 100% God.
• 59:07
  His father was the Holy Spirit. His mother was a human being.
• 59:10
  We agree on that. We agree on doing his will and
• 59:15
  having a voice for those who can't speak for themselves.
• 59:18
  We agree that helping the people that are in need to hear the
• 59:21
  word of God. The majors we're totally on if
• 59:25
  we were to separate about every less major thing, we would be
• 59:31
  like the Ephesus church who like, if you're not just like
• 59:34
  me, I'm going to be violent against evil.
• 59:36
  I am going to be patient. I'm going to endure tribulation,
• 59:39
  but I've left the first love. And the first love is not only
• 59:45
  Jesus, but Jesus said you've done it to the least of these,
• 59:47
  my brother, and you've done it unto me.
• 59:48
  And in the new living it says you left your first love of me
• 59:51
  and your fellow believers. So to me, the more overarching
• 59:58
  thing is the majors. There are so many Catholics who
• 1:00:03
  love Jesus, who who serve him, who obey him, and there's
• 1:00:09
  Catholics who don't. There are so many of them and
• 1:00:12
  evangelicals who love Jesus, obey Jesus.
• 1:00:15
  Then there's those who have the name, but they're not so.
• 1:00:21
  Well, I think you're talking about the the heart's posture,
• 1:00:23
  which is, which is really like at the end of the day, because
• 1:00:27
  you can have all the knowledge, worldly knowledge, know things
• 1:00:31
  back inside out. I mean that Satan knows the
• 1:00:33
  Bible inside out. Satan knows the teachings of the
• 1:00:35
  church inside out. You can know everything and you
• 1:00:38
  can have your heart posture completely deformed.
• 1:00:40
  So in that sense, like that is the majors, it is the heart
• 1:00:43
  posture. And that's why we'll see people
• 1:00:45
  in heaven that were like, wow, I you didn't even know.
• 1:00:48
  You might not have even heard the name of Jesus, but your
• 1:00:50
  heart posture was longing towards him.
• 1:00:51
  So the Lord miraculously allowed you to reveal himself exactly
• 1:00:55
  which he does because he's so generous.
• 1:00:58
  So I'm not asking more of again, like as a as a the reason I
• 1:01:02
  believe it is a major thing, the heart posture, the most
• 1:01:05
  important. But what is a major thing is the
• 1:01:07
  sign, yes, of Christian unity to the world.
• 1:01:09
  We're not a bunch of denominations.
• 1:01:11
  We're not 50,000 denominations. We're not the Catholic, the
• 1:01:13
  Orthodox of Protestant. We are meant to be 1.
• 1:01:16
  So that that gets me going because I want to be 1.
• 1:01:18
  And it's not like the secret society like well, you, I know,
• 1:01:20
  you know, Lord, you know the Lord let's all get together.
• 1:01:23
  I want us to be publicly 1. So that's what draws me to bring
• 1:01:27
  this up annoyingly maybe, but it's also good.
• 1:01:30
  I'm thank you. You're so you're so generous,
• 1:01:33
  But it's also I want the Eucharist is really special.
• 1:01:38
  I think that's that is another thing that it it's the it's it's
• 1:01:42
  protecting the teachings of the faith over 2000 years against
• 1:01:45
  error. That's really important because
• 1:01:47
  there's all this error out there.
• 1:01:48
  You were just talking about it, but it's also I just I want the
• 1:01:52
  Eucharist. I mean that was that got me
• 1:01:54
  going when I because I was given the the experiences of the
• 1:01:57
  spirit before I became Catholic and all of this.
• 1:01:59
  But getting to receive the Eucharist and to know that this
• 1:02:03
  is Jesus's Christ, body, blood, soul and divinity.
• 1:02:06
  That is something that. You're part of the body of
• 1:02:08
  Christ too. The Bible says you are the
• 1:02:10
  temple of the Holy Spirit. My wife is the temple of the
• 1:02:13
  Holy Spirit. My team members are temple of
• 1:02:15
  the Holy Spirit because he lives in US and he dwells in US and he
• 1:02:19
  walks among us. And so that's where I, I thought
• 1:02:26
  in order to come in contact as a Catholic with Christ's body, I
• 1:02:30
  had to get that bread from that priest.
• 1:02:33
  Whereas I found out to get in contact really with Jesus, I
• 1:02:37
  need to find a genuine believer because they are the temple of
• 1:02:42
  the Holy Spirit. They are the part of the body of
• 1:02:46
  Christ, Paul says. You are the body of Christ and
• 1:02:49
  individual members thereof. So I'm sitting with a.
• 1:02:55
  A living Tabernacle. A living Tabernacle, part of the
• 1:02:58
  body of Christ right now, yes, OK, and I love your beautiful
• 1:03:02
  faith. This is when I receive that
• 1:03:04
  bread. I'm honoring the fact that I, I,
• 1:03:07
  I believe this is part of I, I don't see that in Scripture, but
• 1:03:12
  I'm OK with that because I see that your faith is in Jesus.
• 1:03:19
  Of course, so when the only reason I believe.
• 1:03:22
  In new people in the Catholic Church as boy remember this, we
• 1:03:25
  were the guys that only Catholics are going to heaven.
• 1:03:28
  That was our way, only way of coming in contact with the body
• 1:03:31
  of Christ. And that see, I remember being
• 1:03:33
  in church and the euchre, I was going to go pray at church just
• 1:03:38
  to be with our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament, because I you
• 1:03:40
  can be with our Lord, I'm with our Lord when you're in the
• 1:03:42
  presence of a believer, yes, you know, we are carrying his Holy
• 1:03:47
  Spirit like that is all. And and like you said, we should
• 1:03:49
  not downplay that. And but I think this is the
• 1:03:52
  generosity of God because he didn't need to leave us the
• 1:03:54
  Eucharist. He didn't need to leave us his
• 1:03:56
  spirit. He didn't need to give us any of
• 1:03:57
  this right. But I was in this church and and
• 1:04:00
  the and I was praying and I was like, I don't think the
• 1:04:02
  Eucharist is here. I had this sense spiritually.
• 1:04:06
  Then I, I looked over and like, yeah, it's not the, the lights
• 1:04:08
  not on the Tabernacle is not, you know, they, they were doing
• 1:04:11
  some sort of construction. But then I felt like our Lord
• 1:04:14
  said, I'm here. And I was like, what do you
• 1:04:16
  mean, Lord? And and he's like, I'm here.
• 1:04:18
  You're there. He's with the workers and
• 1:04:21
  myself, of course, but he's talking about the workers.
• 1:04:23
  He was there in the workers and I was like, thank you, Lord.
• 1:04:27
  And he was telling me exactly what you're saying, which I
• 1:04:29
  think is a good word for all of us, which is that he is always
• 1:04:33
  with us. He is with us and our brothers
• 1:04:35
  and He is also with us in the least of these.
• 1:04:37
  He told us that he's with us in the unborn child.
• 1:04:39
  He's with us and the person that is, you know, drug addicted on
• 1:04:42
  the street like that of course, is as the teaching of our faith
• 1:04:45
  too. So he, his, you see his face in
• 1:04:47
  every human person. That's our Lord's love.
• 1:04:50
  I have difficulty believing he's in every person because.
• 1:04:54
  Well, they're in that they're made in his image is what I mean
• 1:04:56
  by that. They're made in his image, but I
• 1:04:58
  don't believe that he's in every.
• 1:04:59
  I believe He's in those who have given their lives to him.
• 1:05:03
  Yes, just as the Day of Pentecost.
• 1:05:04
  He made it really clear these are the people I'm in, and he
• 1:05:08
  literally covered them with the fire of His Spirit.
• 1:05:11
  He's showing. And This is why the apostles
• 1:05:13
  write in the letter, You are the party of Christ and individual
• 1:05:17
  members thereof. Yes, that isn't that is an
• 1:05:20
  important. Distinction because I've met a
• 1:05:21
  lot of human beings that he's not in.
• 1:05:23
  Yeah. Well, the image is still.
• 1:05:26
  Yeah, the image is still there even though it's very marked.
• 1:05:29
  There's a difference between image and his enduring presence.
• 1:05:32
  I see it all just, I mean, abundance.
• 1:05:34
  That's the way I see it. It's and it's sort of like,
• 1:05:36
  well, the communion of states. Why pray to the Saints when you
• 1:05:38
  can pray to Jesus? I do pray to Jesus.
• 1:05:41
  I ask you to pray for me, John. I talk to you, John, like I'm
• 1:05:44
  speaking to you now, right? It's the abundance of God.
• 1:05:47
  The Eucharist is an abundance thing.
• 1:05:50
  You know, the the Holy Spirit is abundant.
• 1:05:52
  That's beautiful. The communion of Saints is
• 1:05:53
  abundant. So when I think about these
• 1:05:55
  things from the Catholic Church, I don't think about them in
• 1:05:56
  terms of, you know, some sort of a judgmental thing.
• 1:06:01
  What do you do? With Paul putting rags that come
• 1:06:03
  from his body on people and they're getting healed and
• 1:06:06
  delivered. We do that now with relics of a
• 1:06:07
  St. I've got 4 relics in the back
• 1:06:09
  right now. You know that that that would
• 1:06:11
  blow a lot. That would blow a lot of
• 1:06:13
  evangelical minds right there. I mean, but.
• 1:06:16
  But also it's also John 6, I I'm curious your take on it.
• 1:06:19
  We're going there, John 6 when he says you need to eat my flesh
• 1:06:22
  and chew my you need to chew is is really the the interpretation
• 1:06:26
  of that. Goes on to say what?
• 1:06:29
  My words are flesh. My words are, excuse me?
• 1:06:32
  My words are spirit and they are life.
• 1:06:35
  And that's true too. That's true.
• 1:06:37
  Yeah. So I think he was talking about
• 1:06:40
  the fullness of His Word, because He is the Word made
• 1:06:45
  flesh. Yes, but he left us like so when
• 1:06:47
  when, when the manna in the desert was left for the
• 1:06:50
  Israelites, right? It was this very concrete sign
• 1:06:53
  from heaven, right? Now Jesus is the bread of life,
• 1:06:55
  right? But he left God has always been
• 1:06:57
  a God of using, you know, human beings like he uses us,
• 1:07:01
  obviously. But he, he gives us something
• 1:07:02
  concrete because he's he works through nature in the natural
• 1:07:05
  order. He's always done this.
• 1:07:06
  It's very mysterious, but amazing.
• 1:07:08
  So he gave us something concrete, like at the Last
• 1:07:10
  Supper he gave concrete bread to his disciples that he broke.
• 1:07:14
  And then he said, I am this bread.
• 1:07:16
  And then his body's broken on the cross.
• 1:07:18
  But then the early church all believed and understood that to
• 1:07:21
  mean the believers break bread and receive it and that this is
• 1:07:25
  really Jesus that they're receiving miraculously.
• 1:07:28
  And this is a special way for him to remain with us.
• 1:07:30
  And you'll know the believers read The Breaking of the Bread.
• 1:07:34
  Very good point. Again, this is not a major to
• 1:07:39
  me. The major is, do we have a
• 1:07:42
  vibrant relationship with Jesus? Are we seeking with all of our
• 1:07:46
  heart to glorify Him, to obey His words, His commands, and
• 1:07:49
  walking in His presence? To me, there's nothing more
• 1:07:52
  important. Yes, I I'm, I'm with you, my
• 1:07:56
  brother, I'm with you. You know, my wife wears a
• 1:07:59
  wedding ring. I put it on her finger that day.
• 1:08:02
  The wedding ring is not the major.
• 1:08:04
  It's the covenant we made before God so she could take that
• 1:08:09
  wedding ring off. And she does when she's cooking.
• 1:08:13
  That doesn't break the important thing, the covenant we made
• 1:08:17
  before Almighty God. It's just the same way with
• 1:08:20
  baptism. It's the same way with
• 1:08:21
  circumcision. Paul said, hey, this is an
• 1:08:24
  outward sign of what the most important thing.
• 1:08:27
  You've given your heart to him. You've allowed him to circumcise
• 1:08:30
  your heart. So did I get baptized?
• 1:08:34
  Yes. Do I believe in that?
• 1:08:35
  Yes. But I want to always go to the
• 1:08:38
  foundation of this was a covenant that Lisa and I made
• 1:08:44
  before Almighty God that stands whether she's got a wedding ring
• 1:08:47
  on or not. And we're, I, we are aligned on
• 1:08:52
  that in that the most important thing at the foundation of all
• 1:08:55
  of this is Jesus Christ in, in heaven.
• 1:08:57
  We're going to have Jesus, not the Eucharist, because he is the
• 1:08:59
  Eucharist, right? So they're not going to see the
• 1:09:00
  bread in heaven. It's Jesus.
• 1:09:02
  It's all about Jesus in the end, all of this, the these things of
• 1:09:07
  baptism use water to baptize, right?
• 1:09:10
  We don't baptize with the air like the Lord gave us water
• 1:09:14
  destructions and the and so in that sense, major minor.
• 1:09:18
  It depends how we're defining major minor, right?
• 1:09:21
  But I think they're all gifts. That's the thing.
• 1:09:24
  They're all gifts. And it's not meant to be like,
• 1:09:26
  well, you didn't figure out the exact homework, so tough luck,
• 1:09:30
  right? It's not supposed to be that.
• 1:09:31
  And in the early church, it wasn't.
• 1:09:34
  And then I think we just kind of got confused the last few 100
• 1:09:36
  years because I wish Martin Luther had just kind of the
• 1:09:40
  priest and the Martin Luther had figured it out together.
• 1:09:43
  We. True believers were a lot more
• 1:09:45
  divided over this 40 years ago when I first got saved.
• 1:09:48
  Well, I'm been say 46 years. We're a lot more divided over
• 1:09:51
  this 40 years ago because I think we're actually growing in
• 1:09:56
  the knowledge of him and in in love with him.
• 1:09:59
  And I think the more more we do, the more we're going to come.
• 1:10:03
  Just like you said, it wasn't a dividing factor with you.
• 1:10:05
  I always look at the last thing lost was the first thing
• 1:10:09
  restored, and the first thing lost is the last thing restored.
• 1:10:12
  Do you understand what I mean by that?
• 1:10:15
  The last thing lost in the church was you're saved by
• 1:10:18
  grace. You think that meaning meaning.
• 1:10:21
  That's when we went into the Dark Ages, and then the first
• 1:10:25
  thing restored is when Martin Luther, a Catholic priest,
• 1:10:28
  pounded his 99 thesis on the door and said the just shall
• 1:10:31
  live by faith. We went from buying indulgences
• 1:10:34
  and buying ourselves out of problems with God into back to
• 1:10:40
  faith to where faith was the foundation, not our works of
• 1:10:44
  good works and not our indulgences.
• 1:10:47
  And see, I, I think I see when I look at Christian history, you
• 1:10:50
  see in every century, you're going to see that priest that,
• 1:10:53
  you know, didn't fully understand the truth.
• 1:10:55
  And so he made you fear hell without understanding the love
• 1:10:59
  of Christ, right? And you're going to see that
• 1:11:01
  throughout history, you're going to see Martin Luther responding
• 1:11:04
  to excesses or a lack of a representation of the fullness
• 1:11:09
  of the truth. And so he kind of says, I'm
• 1:11:10
  going to, you know, fight back with this other, you know,
• 1:11:13
  presentation of what I think this key truth that you're
• 1:11:15
  missing when you do this. And the church, the Catholic
• 1:11:18
  Church were formed, had a counter reformation to say,
• 1:11:20
  yeah, in these practices, we've forgotten the core right.
• 1:11:25
  And that's always been a case throughout Christian history.
• 1:11:28
  The Holy Spirit's always reviving because we are, you
• 1:11:31
  know, mere mortals that are full of our temptation to sin,
• 1:11:34
  concupiscence. We're always tempted, tempted to
• 1:11:36
  sin. I don't know.
• 1:11:37
  I, I, there's still something here that I feel like if we
• 1:11:40
  prayed and asked the Holy Spirit to guide us, and I'm very open
• 1:11:43
  to what that looks like for me because I want the Lord to lead
• 1:11:46
  here. There's more to discover.
• 1:11:49
  It's for it's truth, Lila. I'm not a Lutheran.
• 1:11:53
  I've never been a Lutheran, but yet I just cited Martin Luther.
• 1:11:57
  Why? Because Martin Luther received
• 1:11:58
  truth from the Word of God, empowered by the Holy Spirit,
• 1:12:03
  that brought a change, a very good change, to where people
• 1:12:07
  were no longer trusting in their own works to earn their
• 1:12:10
  relationship with God. They were now receiving
• 1:12:14
  salvation by faith the way it was intended, right from the
• 1:12:17
  early Church. But I think I'm saying, I think
• 1:12:19
  he misunderstood Martin Luther because the church.
• 1:12:22
  Martin Luther, if you if you go back, you're going to find out
• 1:12:24
  there were a lot of issues. I mean, but but what I'm looking
• 1:12:27
  for is what is the truth that heaven is revealing?
• 1:12:31
  It's really interesting that somebody can carry a truth from
• 1:12:35
  heaven, but yet in their personal life, they may not be
• 1:12:39
  really walking and out in a lot of other areas.
• 1:12:42
  But still they were they they brought a truth that actually
• 1:12:46
  brought a revolution, a change. But what's so important, and I
• 1:12:53
  want to keep pointing us back to it, is what is your mind?
• 1:12:57
  What is your listeners? What is your relationship with
• 1:13:01
  Jesus? Are you pursuing Him with all
• 1:13:03
  your heart, mind, soul, body and strength?
• 1:13:05
  Are we truly His Bride who loves Him and lays our life down for
• 1:13:09
  Him as our Groom and our King? That to me, trump's everything
• 1:13:14
  else by far. We've.
• 1:13:17
  I feel like you and I in the past few minutes have dove into
• 1:13:21
  some of the less important matters, but we were doing it to
• 1:13:25
  try to find answers to what is created division.
• 1:13:29
  I'm OK with that, but I want to always keep pointing back to the
• 1:13:32
  fact that we keep our eyes fixed on Jesus.
• 1:13:35
  He's the one we set our affections on.
• 1:13:37
  I I share it because when I was praying the prayers you're
• 1:13:41
  describing, Lord, how do I just follow you?
• 1:13:43
  That was the prayer of my heart. That's my testimony anyways,
• 1:13:46
  right? So I met the Lord growing up,
• 1:13:48
  evangelical Bible based church. I knew Jesus was real and I
• 1:13:54
  wanted to love him. I figured out I had my doubts.
• 1:13:57
  I was trying to figure out, you know, really rebuild my own
• 1:14:00
  face. I didn't want to just believe it
• 1:14:01
  because my parents believed it. So went through a period of is
• 1:14:03
  this really true? Is Jesus who he said he was?
• 1:14:06
  Is God real? And I came to the belief that
• 1:14:10
  yes, Jesus is God. You know, the Bible teaches the
• 1:14:13
  truth, all of this and then it was the hunger of Lord.
• 1:14:15
  I want to get closer to you, Lord, I want to be united with
• 1:14:19
  you. I want to go deeper with you.
• 1:14:21
  How do I love you more? How do I pray more?
• 1:14:22
  How do I know your will for my life?
• 1:14:24
  And that's where enter in discovering 2000 years church
• 1:14:29
  history, understanding more the depth of moral and faith
• 1:14:32
  teaching, coming before the Eucharist and saying, wow, I get
• 1:14:35
  to receive you and be so united in this physical way with you.
• 1:14:39
  And that was the depth of it. So I, I don't bring this up as
• 1:14:43
  minors and I, and again, I'm so grateful for your patience with
• 1:14:48
  me because I'm not trying to like score a theological point
• 1:14:50
  because I have such respect. You're, you're an incredible.
• 1:14:53
  Am I trying to do that? With no, you're not, I know
• 1:14:55
  you're not. And it's truly an exploration of
• 1:14:58
  like, how do we get closer to Jesus?
• 1:14:59
  Because the only reason I'm Catholic is not because of some
• 1:15:02
  like team sport or you know, sectarian thing.
• 1:15:05
  It's because I pray get me closer and I discovered
• 1:15:09
  Eucharist. I discovered this Mama church,
• 1:15:11
  like Mama church in the body of believers, but also in the
• 1:15:14
  treasure trove of faith and morals teaching that wasn't
• 1:15:17
  going to, you know, change. It was going to withstand the
• 1:15:19
  test of time. I didn't have the baggage that,
• 1:15:22
  you know, you experienced. My my poor mother was raised
• 1:15:25
  similarly to you, by the way, Italian Catholic in Boston.
• 1:15:28
  The nuns like it was hard for her similar time frame, I think.
• 1:15:32
  And so she became born again at 20, left Catholicism.
• 1:15:36
  Probably right around 7979. Very similar to your story Jesus
• 1:15:40
  revolution, yes, but then that it met met a lady in a bus who
• 1:15:44
  who gave her the gospel. She heard it for the first time
• 1:15:46
  in the way that she could understand it born again
• 1:15:49
  experience. Then now she's back Catholic,
• 1:15:52
  but it's not like, oh, Catholic versus it's more that oh, the
• 1:15:55
  Lord allowed that because she wasn't with the formation she
• 1:15:59
  had received as a young Catholic.
• 1:16:01
  It wasn't real. Like it she wasn't, it was real
• 1:16:03
  and not the Catholic Church's sacraments are real, but the
• 1:16:06
  connection wasn't happening. And so the Lord, I think allowed
• 1:16:10
  this and gave her that born again experience.
• 1:16:13
  It was real and now the Lord has brought her back to Eucharist
• 1:16:16
  and back to full communion. So I I don't say it again as a
• 1:16:20
  minors for majors or trying to debate theology in more that
• 1:16:25
  like what is the the deepest heart of getting as close as
• 1:16:28
  possible as we can to our Lord and it's going to look different
• 1:16:30
  in different ways for each soul. But you know, once it's like the
• 1:16:34
  Eucharist is Jesus and I get and I have this extra abundance of
• 1:16:37
  graces to receive him, then it was, well, let's go for that.
• 1:16:41
  Do you understand that I love that about Lila and the my
• 1:16:46
  Catholic brothers and sisters? And you understand that I love
• 1:16:50
  him so passionately, but I can't I, I, I have trouble with that.
• 1:16:55
  One I see. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:16:57
  But not a critical trouble it it's just like I said, I believe
• 1:17:03
  we're members of the body of Christ an individual and boy,
• 1:17:06
  it's important. He said until until I return, do
• 1:17:09
  this in remembrance of me. This is my body.
• 1:17:12
  This is the blood of the covenant.
• 1:17:14
  And as long as right as long as I'm away, you continue to do
• 1:17:18
  this in remembrance of me. So it's very important communion
• 1:17:22
  to me. Very, very important.
• 1:17:24
  I think it's just how we view it and I respect because I love how
• 1:17:30
  strong your faith is and be honest with you.
• 1:17:33
  I think that's what's the most important thing here is where is
• 1:17:36
  your faith and happy? It's kind of like when Paul
• 1:17:39
  wrote and he said, hey, you got a person who believes they can
• 1:17:41
  eat meat, sacrifice to idols, and you got a person that can't.
• 1:17:44
  And he said happy is the man who's strong in his faith and
• 1:17:47
  approves what he believes. That's how he concludes that
• 1:17:50
  chapter, because you've got a brother who can can eat meat,
• 1:17:54
  sacrifice the idols and it doesn't bother his conscience.
• 1:17:57
  You got the brother. Can't do it.
• 1:17:58
  It bothers his conscience. He said.
• 1:18:00
  If he If he does that, it's a sin.
• 1:18:03
  If he makes him feel bad for not doing it, it's a sin.
• 1:18:09
  If he judges him for eating meat, it's a sin.
• 1:18:13
  And then he concludes the whole chapter was happy as he who has
• 1:18:16
  this conviction and walks in his own convictions of the truth of
• 1:18:20
  what he's received from the Lord.
• 1:18:22
  Well, I think your point there is you have to be true to your
• 1:18:25
  conscience because if your conscience is telling you
• 1:18:27
  there's error in this, right, there's error in this, this
• 1:18:31
  Catholic Eucharist, and it's not really what they're saying it
• 1:18:34
  is, then in good conscience you cannot receive and you should
• 1:18:38
  not believe, you know what I'm saying?
• 1:18:39
  So. On any of my Catholic brothers
• 1:18:41
  and sisters thinking I think they're in error.
• 1:18:44
  I don't think that it's in. Error.
• 1:18:45
  It's just my conscience. Love it.
• 1:18:47
  Our love covers it. It's OK.
• 1:18:49
  Yeah, my conscience just isn't comfortable with going to the
• 1:18:52
  full end of saying this is the body of Christ is that is that
• 1:18:56
  sit well I. Respect that profoundly.
• 1:18:58
  I. Respect you saying it.
• 1:19:01
  It is, and I'm fine with that because I know you follow Jesus.
• 1:19:05
  Yes. Well, I don't know that many
• 1:19:07
  people have conversations like this on today's Faith podcast,
• 1:19:10
  but I think they're beautiful. So thank you for being willing
• 1:19:14
  to talk about it with me. And I wish we did this more
• 1:19:18
  because I think when we do talk about these differences, but
• 1:19:23
  they're not so much differences as are there as an understanding
• 1:19:27
  that, you know, it's the same thing because you were raised
• 1:19:30
  with this, right? You were raised with in the
• 1:19:32
  Catholic faith. But I don't know that the
• 1:19:34
  catechesis was the same that I experienced when I became
• 1:19:37
  Catholic. So your conscience and I
• 1:19:40
  remember my mother when my when I became Catholic and my mother
• 1:19:43
  was like, you know, she kind of understood pieces, but she's
• 1:19:46
  like there were pieces of it that were like in her conscience
• 1:19:49
  didn't match up because she had become born again, happily
• 1:19:54
  gotten to know the Lord, you know, as a non Catholic now, you
• 1:19:57
  know, not in community with the Catholic Church anymore.
• 1:19:59
  And so it's a process to understand what are these, what
• 1:20:04
  are these foundations that we share?
• 1:20:07
  Certainly. But then something like the
• 1:20:09
  Eucharist, if, if you don't see it the way that I see it, then I
• 1:20:12
  can see you wouldn't, it wouldn't make sense for you to
• 1:20:16
  go and want to receive. Right.
• 1:20:21
  Well, thank you, John. Thank you for talking talking
• 1:20:25
  about that with. Me, I've enjoyed it very much.
• 1:20:27
  Thank you. Do you think that if more people
• 1:20:33
  open their hearts sincerely and sought our Lord, how, how would
• 1:20:39
  things look differently do you think today?
• 1:20:42
  I think the early church experienced a lot of problems in
• 1:20:47
  the fact that the Jewish believers we're still doing
• 1:20:50
  things that were prescribed under the law and the Gentile
• 1:20:53
  believers weren't. And I think Paul was kind of
• 1:20:56
  sent in to kind of bring a fact that hey, look, this is your
• 1:20:59
  brother that Christ died for. This is your sister Christ died
• 1:21:01
  for. Look at this major on this.
• 1:21:05
  I think the more we we talk these things through and that we
• 1:21:12
  allow different forms of emphasis in our walks to not be
• 1:21:17
  dividing factors, but just to be OK, I'm fine with that.
• 1:21:21
  Just like Paul was fine. Because I remember the time that
• 1:21:25
  Paul did get in troubles when he went against his convictions and
• 1:21:29
  he did the purification sacrifice.
• 1:21:32
  That's when the whole place went into an uproar where he got
• 1:21:34
  arrested and eventually had to go to Rome.
• 1:21:37
  So you know that that if if you look at Peter, Peter's got the
• 1:21:42
  Jewish brothers coming down and he all of a sudden pulls away
• 1:21:45
  from the Gentiles. That is the thing I think.
• 1:21:48
  And, and Paul called him out with the Galatian church.
• 1:21:51
  He said he played the hypocrite, so did Barnabas.
• 1:21:54
  And he should have been true to Peter because Peter knew that
• 1:21:59
  God accepted the Gentiles without circumcision, without
• 1:22:02
  all their rituals, and Peter should have stayed true to it.
• 1:22:05
  So I think the most important thing is we stay true to our
• 1:22:08
  convictions and also with an openness of heart to love and
• 1:22:13
  say your convictions that you stay true to of what you see in
• 1:22:17
  the Word of God, I'm fine with, even though it's different from
• 1:22:22
  me when we do that. I think that's the oneness that
• 1:22:24
  God is looking for. Do you think there's a vision
• 1:22:28
  when I think about heaven? And I hope one day we can be in
• 1:22:31
  heaven together. There's this vision of heaven,
• 1:22:34
  of it's perfect unity, perfect unified love.
• 1:22:37
  I see a perfect, I see a perfect unity before he returns because
• 1:22:41
  he said until we all come to the unity of faith and knowledge of
• 1:22:44
  the Son of God, I believe that we're going to realize some of
• 1:22:48
  these things that are we've placed high emphasis on are not
• 1:22:53
  the valuable things are not are not worth dividing over.
• 1:22:57
  So that's where the the the process of hashing it out as
• 1:23:00
  maybe uncomfortable. It might make people, especially
• 1:23:03
  conflict of averse people, feel like why are you talking about
• 1:23:06
  your disagreements? You have so much you agree on,
• 1:23:08
  but that's where the hash out is so valuable.
• 1:23:10
  What do you think? I I'm OK with it.
• 1:23:12
  I don't want to give all my time to it.
• 1:23:14
  Of course. I want to continue to preach the
• 1:23:16
  gospel, get the law saved, and disciple. 100%.
• 1:23:19
  But I think there is a value. That's why I've been delighted
• 1:23:23
  with us engaging right now because.
• 1:23:25
  Have you had a conversation like this before on a show?
• 1:23:27
  I haven't done it in this way on the show, so I've.
• 1:23:30
  Never had a podcast conversation.
• 1:23:32
  Where I've gone, Thank you. This far, Yeah.
• 1:23:35
  But you can. I pray to the spirit of my I'm
• 1:23:38
  going to. Go one step further.
• 1:23:39
  Please do. My wife's sitting right here.
• 1:23:41
  We've walked into cathedrals in Europe where I I had to walk
• 1:23:45
  out. Really.
• 1:23:46
  Why? Because my sister died of cancer
• 1:23:48
  at 14 years of age, I took my allowance and I lit the candles
• 1:23:51
  to get her out of purgatory. And I realized.
• 1:23:55
  I'm so sorry. I realized after coming to know
• 1:23:58
  Jesus that the Bible says to be absent from the body is to be
• 1:24:03
  present from the Lord, and that's where my faith went.
• 1:24:06
  You you were wounded, it sounds like.
• 1:24:09
  That's what my my daughter-in-law said.
• 1:24:12
  I don't know that it's wounded it it upsets me and troubles me
• 1:24:19
  that there are still people who gave money for indulgences to
• 1:24:26
  build Saint Peter's Basilica. And that's not at all the blood
• 1:24:31
  of Jesus that cleanses us from sin and so wounding.
• 1:24:36
  I don't think it's the right word, seeing the damage, seeing
• 1:24:41
  the misleading that occurred because I really believe I was
• 1:24:45
  getting her out. And that's why I would give my
• 1:24:49
  allowance money and I would light that candle.
• 1:24:51
  And I did it and I did it believing, but I didn't have a
• 1:24:55
  relationship with Jesus. And I think what happened is
• 1:24:58
  when my fraternity brother shared with me the gospel and he
• 1:25:01
  came into my heart and he filled a void that winning the state
• 1:25:07
  tennis tournament, playing Junior Davis Cup tennis, playing
• 1:25:11
  the USTA circuit, starting on the Purdue University of Tennis
• 1:25:14
  team, going to Catholic Church didn't fill.
• 1:25:18
  Why didn't it fill it? Why didn't going to the Catholic
• 1:25:22
  Church not fill that void? Because I didn't have a
• 1:25:24
  relationship with Jesus. And when he came in and I met
• 1:25:29
  him, he changed me from the inside out.
• 1:25:32
  And my Catholic mother was so mad she wouldn't invite me to my
• 1:25:38
  dad's retirement party because she was concerned I was going to
• 1:25:40
  witness to people. But after that party, she looked
• 1:25:44
  at me one day. This is long before I know Lisa,
• 1:25:47
  and she said, you've really changed.
• 1:25:51
  I said, mom, Jesus did this. What I couldn't do when I was
• 1:25:56
  going to Catholic Mass every Sunday.
• 1:25:58
  Mom, Jesus has done this. This is his gift, his grace.
• 1:26:03
  God put his divine nature and the inside of me.
• 1:26:07
  And what you saw before was a very, very selfish, narcissistic
• 1:26:13
  young man. Now you're seeing a young man
• 1:26:15
  who's being transformed even as we speak.
• 1:26:18
  He's changing me. He's changed me, and he's still
• 1:26:20
  changing me. And my mom, who wouldn't invite
• 1:26:24
  me to my dad's retirement party, was giving my books out to
• 1:26:26
  everybody that would listen to her by the time she left this
• 1:26:30
  earth. So.
• 1:26:33
  I don't know why the Lord in His Providence allowed the errors
• 1:26:39
  and faults and stray actions of yes, many Catholics including
• 1:26:45
  priests and nuns and lay people. But but, but, but why?
• 1:26:50
  That the Lord then brought you to the fullness of experiencing
• 1:26:54
  the love of Jesus and the relationship that you have with
• 1:26:56
  Him and the fruit, the real fruit that's come from your
• 1:26:59
  ministry. There are Pharisees that many of
• 1:27:03
  them were the enemies of Jesus, but there were Pharisees who
• 1:27:06
  believed in Jesus. And they live by the letter of
• 1:27:09
  the law. But then in my experience, and I
• 1:27:12
  know so many more like this experience now even a greater
• 1:27:16
  richness in receiving the sacraments and seeing Mama Mama
• 1:27:21
  Church, you know and understanding.
• 1:27:23
  Yes, we're united in the body of believers.
• 1:27:25
  I see Protestants and and non Catholics as who are baptized
• 1:27:29
  and believe and profess the name of our Lord and are seeking him.
• 1:27:32
  We're still part of the same body.
• 1:27:33
  But I, I just, I, I do have a vision.
• 1:27:37
  I do have a vision that there will be a fullness of reunion,
• 1:27:42
  of union this side of heaven. You know, I think it is the
• 1:27:45
  church united this side of heaven.
• 1:27:48
  And I do think you have a special prophetic role to play.
• 1:27:55
  So forgive me for that word. But if you and I forgive me.
• 1:27:58
  Get along like this, you and I can get along like this, and the
• 1:28:03
  respect that I carry for you and the knowing I carry it with me
• 1:28:09
  in me about you knowing you are a servant of the Most High God,
• 1:28:13
  that you are one of Jesus's true children, and I think that same
• 1:28:18
  respect is mutual. Then this can happen on a large
• 1:28:21
  scale, Lila, and it happens when people really fall in love with
• 1:28:25
  Jesus, not in their doctrine or their denomination.
• 1:28:28
  Yes, yes, except when Jesus is the Word, right?
• 1:28:33
  So in that, what is the doctrine then?
• 1:28:35
  He is the Word. Their doctrine not.
• 1:28:37
  The doctrine. Doctrine, yes.
• 1:28:39
  The doctrine I'm all for. Yes, not for fair.
• 1:28:43
  Thank you. It's been an honor.
• 1:28:44
  Thank you so much. Thank you for having me.
• 1:28:48
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• 1:28:50
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• 1:28:55
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• 1:28:58
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• 1:29:01
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