Latest / The Virtual Couch / Exploring the Enneagram, Mental Health and Self-Discovery with Artist Mikenzi Mitchell

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Exploring the Enneagram, Mental Health and Self-Discovery with Artist Mikenzi Mitchell · The Virtual Couch

• 0:00
  Music.
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  Hey, everybody. Welcome to episode 389 of The Virtual Couch. I am your host, Tony Overbay.
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  I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, a certified MindfulHabit coach, a writer,
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  speaker, husband, father of four. I want to get to today's episode. Today is a very, very
• 0:35
  exciting episode. And so I'll just ask you to quickly go sign up for my newsletter. I
• 0:39
  will tell you that there are just many things in the works, many exciting things, an update
• 0:43
  to the Magnetic Marriage course, some new material in my Path Back Addiction Recovery,
• 0:48
  and I have a parenting course that is, has embarrassingly been hidden and not available on my website,
• 0:54
  so that purchase will be available very soon.
• 0:57
  And there's the Murder on the Couch podcast with my daughter, Sydney.
• 1:00
  And if you tuned in last week, I interviewed my daughter, Mackie,
• 1:03
  about parenting with older to adult children
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  and how to best show up as a parent when your kid is all up in their amygdala
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  or being extremely emotional, having all the feelings, which is perfectly normal,
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  and how you show up and not make it about you or if it's just about getting rid of your own discomfort.
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  So I love the content that Mackie and I talked about there and I introduced some concepts around a healthy,
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  assertive and nurturing frames that are based off the concepts that are also talked about often
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  about masculine and feminine energy and polarity.
• 1:31
  We talked about McKinley's new podcast.
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  Mackie has a new podcast that trailers up and I highly encourage you to go sign up for it,
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  follow it wherever you follow podcasts.
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  It is called The Mind, The Mirror and Me and I am co-hosting and we've already recorded the first episode.
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  It's so good. it is talking about.
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  Having all the feelings and doing things anyway, and inviting all the uncomfortable feelings to
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  come along with you while you do hard things. And it's a really, really fun episode. So,
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  I want you to hear that. So, please sign up for her podcast as soon as you can.
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  All right. Today's guest is Mackenzie Mitchell. And let's just call Mackenzie what she is. She
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  is an incredibly talented artist with a very large following on social media. She's done some very
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  large scale collaborations with some big companies. She covers mental health topics,
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  along with so many other relevant topics. And if you are listening, I would just highly encourage
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  you do yourself a favor right now and go to our Instagram, which is at Kinsey Studio Co,
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  which is K-E-N-Z-I-S-T-U-D-I-O-C-O. And you will be immediately just captivated by her work.
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  And we talk about today what led to today's interview, where we are covering a topic,
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  called the Enneagram and it's something I have not covered before. The Enneagram is a part of my marriage course and I had never taken one or really knew much about it till the creation of the course.
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  And we'll talk more on that in just a second about the Enneagram itself. And I just want you to know that we did a couple of minutes of recording in this digital recording studio.
• 3:04
  And when it works, it is absolutely incredible. And when it doesn't, it's rough. So, when we come into the interview, what we're referring to is that we were really both excited to meet each other and we were hyped up and we ran into technical issues.
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  And there was all this buffering and we couldn't hear each other and we talked over each other. And so then by the time we met on a Zoom link, we were, I think, jokingly a little bit flat.
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  So, that's how we come into the interview. But what a joy to interview Mackenzie. She
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  talks about her love of psychology and some of that that led to her work with Enneagrams.
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  But her artwork is incredible. And please go find the thumbnail for this episode today
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  because she did a custom drawing, a digital artwork with Mackenzie and I both in it with,
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  mental health related topics and talking about the Enneagram. And it is going to be one of
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  of my most prized, cherished possessions, for real.
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  This interview is also gonna go up on YouTube, so if you wanna watch it at the end,
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  we talk about doing a follow-up interview,
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  where we're gonna break down any listener emails or what the, and talk about what their Enneagram type
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  might be and what it might suggest about how they show up in a relationship
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  or how that might lead them to knowing things that they could do to show up better or differently
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  or to change in a healthy way.
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  So if you connect with McKinsey and me today, then please email me at contact at tonyoverbay.com
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  and then we will solve all of your problems in a future episode.
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  So let me read her bio, I'll talk briefly about the Enneagram
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  and then let's get to the interview, I promise,
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  because I can't wait.
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  So Mackenzie Mitchell is a graphic artist and she is a North Carolina based designer.
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  She's the artist behind Kinsey Studio Co. She initially started her Instagram as a personal
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  outlet for inspiration. And then she quickly realized its potential to be so much more.
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  And her designs are aimed to bring more representation and diversity and belonging.
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  And she hopes that her art will help remind individuals of their inherent worth and the
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  importance of embracing their unique identities. And you can so see it in her artwork. It's just
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  beautiful. It really is. She graduated with a Bachelor of Fine Arts in Graphic Design
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  and has over a decade of experience as a freelance designer and illustrator and a photographer.
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  And then her talent has attracted clients such as Target and Sephora and Press Juicery
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  with her art being sold in stores worldwide. And once you see her style of art, then you
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  will notice it in these places, these stores, and it's just exciting to see.
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  In addition to her creative pursuits, McKinsey is busy being a mom to two small boys. And.
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  And then through her Etsy shop and Instagram, she hopes to inspire and empower others on
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  their personal journey of growth and self-discovery.
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  And I mentioned this toward the, I literally at the very end of the interview, but go check out her Etsy shop.
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  I just assumed because of how good her work is and then her, her, where she's at in the
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  world of digital art, that she would be very expensive, but it's not, it's very affordable.
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  And I'm going to frame the artwork that she did of ours. And I can't wait for that.
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  Let me just briefly touch on the Enneagram itself because I think if you are not familiar
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  with an Enneagram, I was not.
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  Until I made it part of my marriage course and just in a very, I'll put links to this in the show notes, but in a nutshell, the Enneagram is a system of personality typing that describes patterns and how people interpret the world and manage their emotions.
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  The Enneagram describes nine personality types and maps, each of these types on a nine-pointed diagram which helps to illustrate how these types relate to one another.
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  And then if you go to this Enneagram Institute, it was created in 1997 and was formed to further
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  research and development of the Enneagram, one of the most powerful and insightful tools
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  of understanding ourselves and others.
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  At its core, the Enneagram helps us to see ourselves at a deeper, more objective level
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  and can be invaluable assistance on our path to self-knowledge.
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  This is from the Enneagram Institute.
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  But what I think is really interesting is I honestly have not been a huge, I just haven't
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  been a huge personality test type of person. And that's been kind of my own fault, my own
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  immaturity. I really think it has been. And just not knowing what I didn't know. And so,
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  the Enneagram really is, it's based on a lot of some evidence-based data, which is very
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  interesting. So, there are books on the Enneagram. McKenzie goes into detail about the different
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  Enneagram types. And I think we weave in a little bit of her Enneagram, my Enneagram,
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  and then toward the end, we get to all the different Enneagram types. So, I think you're
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  to love this episode. I think you're going to love McKinsey. And then if you have your
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  own thoughts, questions about it, if you want to send a couple of, if you want to send an
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  email about something you're going through in your relationship and you would like McKinsey
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  and I to break it down on a future episode, please do contact at Tonyoverbay.com. And
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  now with, without any further ado, let's get to my interview with McKinsey Mitchell.
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  Music.
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  ♪ And take a seat on the virtual couch ♪ Okay. That seems better.
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  It's so much better and it just kills me because that's the big fancy studio.
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  And now I feel bad because now I can tell the wind's out of my sails.
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  I'm like, hi, Mackenzie.
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  Hey, how's it going? Hey, you know, not much. Doing all right?
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  So I'll have to tell in the intro, I will have to say that I was incredibly excited.
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  Then we ran into all the technical issues and I'm still very excited,
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  but I also have an opportunity. I can act now like I was confident the entire time.
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  Yes. Exactly right. Yeah. Thanks for joining me though. I'm really excited to talk to you.
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  I appreciate you. Ouch.
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  Thank you. No, this is really surreal for me because I've been listening to your podcast for
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  years. And so when you reached out, I was like, no way. So this is awesome. I'm a fan girl.
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  Okay, you're so kind because if I it's embarrassing, though, because when I look at that,
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  you would I think you would post or reposted something of mine. And I just was I think I
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  just said, Oh, thank you. And then I all of a sudden, I like to see who repost things. And I
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  looked and holy cow, the art that you create, and you were doing a lot, I think, around Enneagrams
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  at that time. And I just had my Enneagram done. And so I think I'd reached out to you and just
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  said, Hey, I'd love to talk to you about that. And I had no idea, just the amount of work that
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  you've done and created. And you've done these big collaborations with Target and all these places.
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  And then I did the wonderful thing where I got back to you a mere year and a half later. So I
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  am so sorry about that. It's okay. It gave me a chance for my nerves to settle in and be like,
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  okay, I could do this. Oh, so I noticed when I did say Enneagram, you perked up a little bit,
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  and maybe we just jump right in there. I've got a list of nerdy questions because I'm so nervous
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  about not knowing what to ask a real artist. But I'm so curious about that. Tell me about your love
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  or fascination about Enneagrams. Yeah, I think during that time, I was going through a period
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  where I was like, Who am I, you know, I felt like I had lost myself a little bit in my marriage,
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  and I was going through a divorce. And so I was kind of like, okay, what can I do to try and connect
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  back to myself? And I was doing all these different like personality tests, because I was just like.
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  I don't know where I am anymore. And the Enneagram really stuck because I felt like the first time I
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  was like, wow, I really feel seen in these different types and stuff. And so that's what
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  kind of started it. Okay. I found mine. I'm going to pull it up here. I'm very curious. What is your
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  Enneagram type? I think I'm a type 4 and there's a couple like in the Enneagram you have a wing
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  where you would have like a 4 wing 3 or 4 wing 5 and within the 4 there's also subtypes and so
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  I'm kind of the 4 that doesn't seem like a 4 and so I had a kind of hard time nailing it down but,
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  yeah I also really resonate a lot with the 3. For a while I thought it was a 7. Okay,
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  Okay, so are you okay? I don't know enough about Enneagram, but I really love it. And it's actually
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  part of my marriage course is encouraging people to take the Enneagram. But I don't know it well
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  Well, do you speak pretty fluent Enneagram?
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  I like, I'm just a really big fan. I'm definitely not an expert, but I mean, I can.
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  Okay. I would love to hear more because maybe this is a very clever, unique way. See, I'm trying to
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  be very creative because I'm talking to a creative person to then tell us about yourself. Tell me
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  about why you felt you were one thing and what you are now and what that means through the Enneagram.
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  Yeah, I think along with trying to find myself again, I was having a hard time just picking up
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  on really what do I resonate with, not what I try to be or what I want others to see me
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  as and so that was navigating. I was like, well, I want to seem like a type three, you
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  know, or I want to be the fun loving seven. Okay. So that was why I was getting hung up
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  on it. And well, and what is it about like the three? What was it about? So I've got
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  it up here. So the achiever, is that something you felt like you needed to be? Yeah, I think.
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  At the time, like growing up, I was very, and I think also our society kind of pushes
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  this type of mentality as well, being very goal oriented, having achievements and trying to have
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  all the success and stuff. And so I do think part of me was growing up was definitely like
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  that perfectionist wanting to be the best at what I was doing. And so I think that was where the
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  of the three kind of came in and I was like, okay, I do feel like I'm driven and ambitious
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  and stuff, but I wasn't so much goal achieving. And so that was kind of a big part of the
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  three that I was like, okay, maybe not. I don't need to do that. And that's like core
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  motivation, I guess, of a three.
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  Okay. And can I, can I ask, man, I'm now I'm really excited because I think now a lot of
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  things come up. I don't know if you hear, heard some of the, when I talk about acceptance
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  and commitment therapy and that concept of socially compliant goals or things we do because
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  we think we're supposed to. So is that maybe where something like that would fit in where
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  I think I should be a three because that's what I'm supposed to be?
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  I think so. I think a lot of times it is like push your environment and what you grew up
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  with as well as what others expected from you so yeah
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  So, yeah, I definitely think I saw myself also like, okay, to show my worth, I need to have all these achievements.
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  Yeah. Well, okay, and here's this, I'm so curious to know then, too. I'm saying this all this, I've never talked to a very true or real creative.
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  And there's a part of me that the more I have very creative clients, that I find myself still wanting to just say those ACT principles, or if they don't feel like being creative,
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  oh, well, that's acknowledge that and then invite that to come with you while you are creative.
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  But then I realized, I don't know what I'm talking about in that realm. Can one just.
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  Be creative? And so, so from an achieving standpoint, do you think it's more difficult
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  to be a creative type or an artist? How does that whole process work for you?
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  Yeah, I tell people, like, it's really hard when you're not feeling the inspiration to still have
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  to go in and design and pull from something. And so being a freelance designer, I've run
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  into a lot of the motivating myself and like having to always come up with new ideas by
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  myself. Sometimes it's easier to have clients who just tell you exactly what you need to
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  do and then you can do it. But it definitely is like a wave where you're, there's times
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  you're like, I'm really on fire. I'm feeling so inspired. And then there's other times
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  you're just like, No. And so I've had to like, just give myself
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  a lot of patience when I'm like, not feeling super motivated,
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  that it's going to come back. Like, it's not always gonna be,
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  you know, this low.
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  Yeah. What do you do if you aren't feeling it? I mean, is that a just I go and I do other things? Do I just sit with it?
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  What do you do? How does that work?
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  Right now? Like I've been able to kind of sit with it if I need to and take time off. I have a really flexible schedule, which
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  has been great. But yeah, just trying to connect in other ways that I enjoy like creative outlets, like, I don't know.
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  Interior design or fashion or other things, you know, and, and trying to get inspired by like poetry or books or movies. So
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  just sometimes I just have to take a break. And then other times I have to push myself to just start creating something
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  and then it kind of gets the ball rolling.
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  Okay, it does. And do you ever feel like I mean, is that a sometimes that's my best work, or do you feel like your best work comes just when it comes
• 15:05
  out of the blue, or is there a rhyme or reason to that?
• 15:08
  Yeah, my mom's always like, you are such a procrastinator. And I'm like, yeah, but when I'm in that kind of manic state, yeah, I really feel like I can get a lot done or it's my best work. So sometimes it's not the healthiest approach to put off things until you're like, in dire need. But I don't know. Sometimes that pressure does help.
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  Now I'm going to sound so egotistical because I want to say, Mackenzie, have you heard when
• 15:33
  I've talked about procrastination or because I've got some very unscientific theories on
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  that where we create our own dopamine dump of when we procrastinate and then it works.
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  So then we almost get that validation. But I've got this theory and tell me if this would
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  work in the creative. So I think that when I'm working with somebody that's studying
• 15:50
  or their project is due for school at, let's say five o'clock on a Friday. And if they
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  try to do it on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, they sit there and then they have
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  all that experiential avoidance.
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  They're gonna check messages or play a game or they're gonna just watch a quick video
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  and then they don't do it Tuesday. So then they feel worse, but I'll do it tomorrow.
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  And then they repeat that Wednesday and Thursday and then Friday, they start at noon and they get it done.
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  And then, but if they would just accept that they're not gonna do it Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday
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  and they do things to raise their emotional baseline, then I think, and this is where I think it's funny,
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  where I think people will assume that I'm gonna say, oh, well then they'll start first thing Friday morning.
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  It'll be no different. They'll still do it at noon, but then they won't have beaten themselves
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  up. And so then it's almost like they're accepting or embracing that dopamine dump
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  of procrastination. And I found it works with things like papers, term papers and stuff.
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  But what do you think that would work in your scenario?
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  Yes, that would definitely be helpful. I do think like, the older I get, the more I'm like,
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  okay, just be patient with yourself. Like, don't worry about it right now. Worry about it later.
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  And so.
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  But I do like that approach. That would be very helpful to, you know, just accept that it's going to be like that.
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  Because there are these people, my wife is one, where when she has something that she has to do, she starts on it early.
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  And it's really wild to kind of watch her in action.
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  Yeah. Yeah. When you see people, you're like, wow, you just did that whole task all in one sitting. It's amazing.
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  Exactly. So, so then, okay, back to the Enneagram then too, because I really love this that...
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  Okay. So you now identify as a what number?
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  Number four, the individualist. So tell me about that. Yeah.
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  Why did you settle in there? So the individualist, I think is one that a lot of people would associate with an artist,
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  but it's not necessarily an artist.
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  It's just somebody who kind of thinks more creatively or artistically about life and the experiences.
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  And I think for me, it was feeling like that core sense of not feeling understood or like,
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  I belong, not really feeling like I could connect with myself as much.
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  And so that was something that really like the force stood out to me and just feeling
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  like that struggle of who am I and do people really know me?
• 18:08
  Yeah.
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  And has that been in your art? I'm curious, is that something that was coming out
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  in your art of who you were, even if you weren't able to be?
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  Yeah, I think like my art, it's been nice because it's been a journey along with me
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  as what I'm going through at the time and what I wanna see.
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  And I think that's been important for me to allow others to see themselves in my artwork
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  and to feel seen and through different ways like diversity or just different paths that people are on.
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  I want them to feel like they can come and see, you know, themselves in it.
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  So I do think sometimes it's hard to.
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  Introspect, the more awareness that you have, the easier it is.
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  Yeah. Well, can I ask you too, and I love this. First of all, is there a.
• 18:54
  Again, claiming this ignorance with art, your art is just, it's just beautiful. And it just,
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  I don't know, I don't know how to describe it. Is that, is it a type of, if somebody listening
• 19:03
  that is artistic, will you say something and they'll say, oh, I know that style or type,
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  or is it just your own style? What is that?
• 19:10
  So I do it all digitally on my iPad. So it's digital art. Okay.
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  And it's very minimal. I enjoy more neutral tones. And I think like where you're like,
• 19:24
  you're a true artist, but I was growing up always felt like, I don't know, I would see
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  other artists and I'm like, they're amazing. They could do so much detail and realistic.
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  And so I think I've played to my strengths of, okay, this looks good, but it's still more simple
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  and I can draw it. You know? I love what you said, because it's funny. I wouldn't have thought of it
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  that way is more simple or I don't know if you said minimalistic. I feel like an old man when I
• 19:49
  think I'm finally using the word satisfying or but it's so peaceful and it's just so satisfying
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  to me just to see it if that makes sense or I don't know if you hear that very often.
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  I love that.
• 20:02
  Yeah? My son, he loves to use satisfying as a word. Does he?
• 20:05
  So I love that that's how he used to do it.
• 20:07
  Okay, that makes me glad. It will be like on your Etsy shop to there's the categories women portraits diversity self-love and spirituality plants fruit and shapes mental health landscapes zodiac artwork religious.
• 20:19
  I think you validated me by just talking about what you do that expressing yourself or the whole journey or but I can go in and click on any of those any of those and then I just I feel like there's a connection or something resonates there with me and I can make a story of that or it makes me feel a certain way which I think is probably the goal I maybe I don't know.
• 20:36
  Yeah, I mean, I...
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  I always feel taken aback by people's reactions to the artwork and the messages to me of like
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  how it's inspired them to do different things, to feel differently about themselves or.
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  It's been the message that they needed to hear that day and so that just makes me feel very
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  fulfilled as an artist that okay like I'm doing something that is helping others and that's
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  always been something that's been important to me. Yeah, I love that. Do you have specific
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  things that you feel like you want to convey or portray with an image, then maybe other people
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  will have all kinds of different responses or reactions? Yeah, I think I first want people to
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  come to my page and see like themselves on that page because I do feel like diversity has been
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  something that wasn't represented enough and so I want everybody all kinds of body types,
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  ethnicities, religious backgrounds, like I want them to come and feel seen and inspired. But I
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  think overall I just, yeah, like I just want people to have a sense of more of themselves
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  when they see my work. Yeah, so do you ever have people that will describe something and it's
• 21:46
  completely not what you had in mind when you created the art? Yeah, I mean people take it and
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  create poetry to go along with it or a whole story and I'm like, wow, I was, yeah, like it's
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  really awesome that people can take something they see and then expound upon it. Yeah. Which
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  I think is a great part about art. Yeah. Can I tell you one of the, when I was literally
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  googling questions to ask famous artistic people.
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  Are you ready? Yes. Wait, hang on. I got to find it first so I can say I can read it robotically
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  so I can show you exactly. Yeah, let's see. Okay, Mackenzie, do you have a favorite piece and why?
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  Oh man. Oh, now I feel like I butchered because now I don't want to make fun of that,
• 22:28
  but I'm making fun of the fact that that should be an easy question. I literally was googling
• 22:32
  things to ask you, but when I may, I won't. I was gonna say I may edit all that out because
• 22:36
  I want this to sound so very powerful and serious, but I appreciate your humor as well
• 22:40
  and going with me on this. So is there a particular piece if somebody is going to go on your Instagram
• 22:45
  or on your Etsy shop that would say this is something that then they will hear the story
• 22:49
  and it will they can look at that picture and it will resonate with them?
• 22:52
  I think probably one of my favorite designs that I did was for the Press Juicery Black History
• 22:57
  Month labels. It was kind of one of my first big projects and I'm kind of hard on myself and so a
• 23:04
  lot of times I do things and I'm like I don't really care for that you know and like others
• 23:08
  like, but I'm like, it could be better. And so like, I do have a hard time sometimes loving what
• 23:13
  I do. But that label, I don't know, like, I was proud of it. And I was proud to see it go across
• 23:19
  the country and people being so excited about it. And so that's probably my favorite.
• 23:25
  Hey, what's that? What's that? Like, what's that whole process? Like, I mean, you get contacted by
• 23:30
  them? Are you blown away? Does it take a long time to come to fruition? Or what's that like?
• 23:34
  Yes. So every time somebody reaches out to me, I'm just, you know, I have that dope, like.
• 23:39
  Why me, you know, like, and so I've had to say, like, Okay, like, this is awesome. But it does
• 23:45
  take some time to for it to sink in. And, but it's been amazing, like all the opportunities
• 23:50
  that I've been able to have. And then something like that, or something like a target or something
• 23:55
  like that, do you have full, creative say in that space? Yeah, so some of the projects,
• 24:01
  they'll have outlines for where they kind of are like, we want this specific.
• 24:06
  Steam or whatever. But then other times it's like, Oh, whatever you feel like would go well with
• 24:12
  the creative brief. So a lot of it, I do have a lot of creative freedom, which has been nice.
• 24:16
  And then I have a couple of art licensors who take my artwork that I've already
• 24:20
  done and then they'll put it onto different products and then get it into stores. So.
• 24:26
  It's really been nice to be able to kind of have that creative freedom.
• 24:30
  I started out doing graphic design and so it was a little bit hard to have other people be like,
• 24:34
  like this is exactly what I want and you have to make it happen.
• 24:38
  So being able to just do what I want and see, it's been so nice.
• 24:43
  What was that whole journey like? And I really am curious, I know it maybe is a stereotypical question,
• 24:48
  but when did you know that you wanted to do this?
• 24:50
  And tell me about your journey. When did you just feel that you were this creative person
• 24:55
  and this is what you wanna do and were you told no and all those things?
• 24:58
  Yeah, so when I went to college, I was actually, there was like two paths that I wanted to take.
• 25:02
  Either something creative or psychology.
• 25:04
  Like I was like, I want to be a therapist. Yeah. So I really loved therapy and it had been such a helpful thing up until that point
• 25:11
  in my life.
• 25:12
  And so I wanted to be somebody that helped others. But my roommate had homework one day and it was from a graphic design class.
• 25:19
  And I was like, that looks like a ton of fun. So started out doing that and that's what I ended up getting my degree in.
• 25:27
  And then I worked a little bit in some design firms, but when I had my first
• 25:32
  son, I started working from home. I was doing more. I was had an Etsy shop, but it was just
• 25:38
  custom paintings, watercolor paintings and portraits for people. And that I got burnt
• 25:43
  out on that really quick because everything was customized. And then when I started going
• 25:49
  through my divorce, I was just feeling really lost. I felt like I needed a way to connect
• 25:54
  back to myself and I knew doing something creative.
• 25:56
  Would be best for me. And I got an iPad and Apple Pencil and I just started drawing. I made my
• 26:03
  Instagram account. It's just a way to have some accountability and post to it just for fun.
• 26:07
  And I had no expectation of getting jobs from it or working and becoming a full-time illustrator.
• 26:14
  So, it really just kind of navigated this path that I did not expect.
• 26:20
  So, you really were... You were just at Etsy shop, some custom work, and then just started
• 26:24
  posting things uh that you were just doing for yourself? Just for fun yeah just for myself.
• 26:30
  And I was still doing some custom portraits for people but I kind of wanted to get away from that
• 26:35
  and yeah I it was not what I expected. So that's why this whole journey has just been very organic
• 26:41
  and very surreal. Okay. I'm trying to figure out where I want to go from here. Yeah I so worry
• 26:47
  these are the most obvious questions but do your kids inspire you with your art or is that a
• 26:52
  a completely separate category for you?
• 26:55
  They, I feel like a lot of my artwork is inspired by kind of my personal journey and like what
• 27:01
  I'm kind of interested in. Yeah.
• 27:05
  My kids, I mean, I'm inspired to work hard so that I can provide for them. Yeah.
• 27:10
  And I do, it makes me really happy. My son always wants to take some of my journals with him to school and draw on them and stuff.
• 27:17
  And so, yeah.
• 27:19
  That's cool. Are either of your boys very creative or artistic?
• 27:22
  You tell at this point.
• 27:23
  Yeah, my oldest, I keep being like, do you want to play sports? He's like, no, I just want to do art. So, okay, very much into art.
• 27:30
  Wow. Okay, that is kind of neat. That is, I want to go back to Enneagram. So I want to talk about your art, but therapist and mental health podcast. And you mentioned that you were looking at psychology, and you've been through divorce. And so how did you know this? I want to know more about that finding yourself journey? Did you feel like you? I don't know. It's so funny, Mackenzie, there's a I want you to know we could edit anything out in the world, because I know that I wanted to
• 27:53
  to come on here and just ask you about art, but I so appreciate your story. Because so many of the
• 27:58
  women I work with that they spend or they burn so many emotional calories just trying to figure out
• 28:04
  how to manage the relationship or that then when they are finally out of the relationship, they
• 28:11
  didn't even know what they didn't know about what that journey would look like. Tell me about that
• 28:15
  journey through the your divorce if you're open to that. Yeah, I think, yeah, I felt like a lot,
• 28:21
  of the perfectionism kicked up in my relationship. I felt like I was a chronic people pleaser. I just
• 28:28
  wanted to be liked. I wanted everybody to see me as this amazing, wonderful person who has no flaws.
• 28:35
  And so I was trying so hard to, I think, mask myself and be what everybody else.
• 28:42
  I thought everybody else would be happy to see. And so once I kind of got out of that relationship,
• 28:49
  I was like, oh, wow, OK, like I have now this chance to really self-reflect and see, you
• 28:55
  know, now I'm like by myself and just feeling very disconnected from my body at that time.
• 29:01
  Nice. Bye.
• 29:03
  Just kind of numbed out and Dissociated and so kind of working with my therapist to just connect to my body again
• 29:11
  Like that was the first steps of like I was like, I should I feel like I should be feeling so much,
• 29:16
  Emotions and I'm just not and so that was kind of where the journey started with. Okay, it will like.
• 29:23
  Let's find you again and the different things like the Enneagram And I think I was also kind of going through like a spiritual awakening at that time like a faith crisis
• 29:32
  So I was just trying to like burn everything down and reconstruct in the way that I felt was more authentic to me.
• 29:40
  Yeah. I've been thinking a lot lately about when we are in a healthy relationship and we're going through this process together and we're processing emotion together.
• 29:49
  And admittedly, that's more rare, I think, than anybody would realize.
• 29:53
  And so then things do become this opportunity to self-reflect and grow.
• 29:57
  But we often get into these in our relationships and never really quite had the validation in childhood.
• 30:03
  Even when our parents, bless their hearts, were trying their best.
• 30:06
  I think that's where they're just saying, hey, I think you should do this or I wouldn't do that.
• 30:09
  And we're just now starting to talk about ways to have a secure attachment with a kid.
• 30:13
  So I've noticed that then when somebody does come out of a relationship and now they do say, I'm I got to find myself, then they'll say to me, is it there?
• 30:21
  But I'm saying, oh, man, this is your opportunity.
• 30:23
  And then it hit me one day a couple of years ago where I thought,
• 30:26
  oh, here's somebody that we get our sense of self through external validation.
• 30:29
  So in childhood, it's a normal part of that of our parents molding us to a point.
• 30:34
  Then we get in a relationship where if it wasn't one that was mutually reciprocal and beneficial,
• 30:39
  then all of a sudden, there you are. And now you give this opportunity, but you still almost need validation from a safe person.
• 30:46
  So yeah, what was that? What did that feel like?
• 30:49
  Before or like after, like in the relationship practice. All of the above. Yeah, yeah. You
• 30:55
  Yeah, I think in the relationship, I kind of fell into that kind of codependent type relationship.
• 31:02
  And I think I was looking for all the external validation. And I was having a hard time.
• 31:07
  Digging within and, you know, being happy with myself. I felt like I needed everybody else to
• 31:11
  validate where I was and who I was. And if they gave me compliments, you know, like I was like,
• 31:17
  okay, I'm, I'm great, you know, but like, I can't give myself that. And I think building that
• 31:23
  emotional baseline, like you said, was something that really resonated with me. I was like, okay,
• 31:27
  I need to build my self-confidence and my self-esteem so that I can validate myself and
• 31:32
  also stand up for myself and in those situations where I felt like I was just trying to people
• 31:37
  please or... And so I think afterwards, it was a lot of me going to other people,
• 31:42
  do you think I'm like this? Or do you, I come across like this? And they were like,
• 31:48
  well, I don't know. What do you think? I'm like, I don't know. You tell me.
• 31:50
  Me. I appreciate that's exactly and I feel like that is to a safe person, then that that's the normal response. I don't
• 31:57
  know you tell me and then I think that's what's unfortunate is that if somebody I call it the psychology of the peanut
• 32:02
  gallery that if somebody is willing to just jump in and say well, I think this, it's actually maybe not the most
• 32:07
  healthy of a relationship.
• 32:10
  Yeah, for sure. When you start to hear negative things, then you're like, Oh, no.
• 32:14
  Yeah. And then you like cling on to that. Yeah. And that's where I feel like when people do get to that place where they
• 32:20
  know they are okay, they know they are enough. It's absolutely,
• 32:24
  perfect and okay for them to think and feel the way they do because they do that. Then when somebody else now says, Well, I
• 32:29
  think you should do this, then that's where I love saying, Well, that's adorable, because that's their opinion. And they
• 32:34
  don't know what it feels like to be me. Is that been part of that that journey that you've been on?
• 32:39
  Yes, I think it took me finally having to face the, okay, I'm going to be me, I'm going to do these different things, even though I know that they might rub some people wrong, or people might not agree, or have those tough conversations, because I was so scared to be vulnerable or open up about tough stuff. I wanted to look perfect. I didn't want to have anything that I was shortcoming on. But then having people respond in a positive way, I was like, okay, I'm not going to get abandoned. I am myself.
• 33:09
  Yeah. Has it shaken out? I know it's cliched sometimes, but the real friendships or relationships?
• 33:14
  Yes. And I think it's just made them stronger. It's made them deeper. I feel like it's given
• 33:20
  them opportunities also to feel like they could be more honest and open.
• 33:26
  And some it's definitely changed. There's people now that I'm like, okay, you know,
• 33:31
  I think I was in more of a situation where I was being used maybe in that kind of relationship.
• 33:35
  And I no longer serve that purpose for them because I'm not going to say yes to everything.
• 33:41
  But yeah, I think being able to sit in yourself and make decisions from that standpoint has been,
• 33:49
  a game changer. I love it. I love what you're saying there too, because when we take a look
• 33:52
  at the family system and when let's say that the mom all of a sudden says, I've had enough and you
• 33:56
  guys need to take care of your own stuff. It's not like the kids go, oh, okay. No,
• 34:00
  they now erupt and push buttons to get the mom back into the role. And so when people
• 34:05
  step out of their their role which is a healthy thing to do as they start to become and be aware,
• 34:10
  people do not just all applaud and so I think that tension is where then people will often go back
• 34:16
  into the familiar role even if it's starting to kill them on the inside. Yeah I think I was so,
• 34:22
  scared to individuate and I was I think getting married young I just I feel like I kind of was
• 34:28
  behind on the curve. When I finally went through the divorce, I was like, oh, now, you know,
• 34:34
  I have to step back and really build that back up.
• 34:38
  Yeah. I'm curious, and you don't have to say, but when you say young,
• 34:41
  how young were you when you were married?
• 34:43
  21. Okay. Yeah. It's so fun. I was, I was, I was like, I know there's younger. I'm like, wow.
• 34:49
  It's so wide. Right. And that's where, man, I think about this so often to McKinsey where I
• 34:53
  almost, I do joke about there should be a age. You should have to be 30 or get a license or
• 34:58
  something because I worry at times, not at times often as a marriage therapist, where people that
• 35:04
  get married young. And I did, I mean, I was, I was 20. My wife was 19. We thought we were very old.
• 35:08
  I had a decent head of hair. It was a completely different ballgame. And I felt like in those times,
• 35:14
  you are trying to manage each other's emotions and feelings. And so I've got a daughter right
• 35:19
  now that is really finding herself in a career. And I've said that had she been in a relationship
• 35:25
  early on, that probably would have been at the expense of the career because trying to navigate
• 35:30
  the relationship. But now if she has the career and now shows up in a relationship, then that's
• 35:35
  that's a whole different person coming into a relationship.
• 35:38
  Yes, building that emotional maturity, sometimes you can do it within a relationship. Yeah, exactly.
• 35:43
  It's not a safe space. And so I do think like going into future relationships,
• 35:51
  like I'm in such a different place than I was and know so much more.
• 35:54
  Yeah, I'm calling it the check please theory, where then if somebody now you're on a date
• 35:58
  and somebody says, oh, I don't like that, I think you should do this.
• 36:02
  At that point, it's okay, we don't need to do any more here.
• 36:05
  Let's just get the check.
• 36:06
  Yeah. Right? Yep, the red flags. Yeah, no, exactly, exactly.
• 36:10
  Okay, I am enjoying the heck out of this and I shouldn't care what a listener may think.
• 36:14
  I'm sitting there saying I know people are gonna want to hear more about the Enneagrams,
• 36:17
  because your work on there is so good. So let me ask you a question without me telling you what mine is.
• 36:23
  Like I kind of have, I guess. I was gonna say, are you, can you guess them or is that an unfair thing?
• 36:29
  I feel like they tell you you shouldn't, but I don't know. It's too hard not to.
• 36:33
  Okay, okay. All right. Okay. Do you want me to get serious? Yeah.
• 36:37
  I would guess a seven. You are, yeah, exactly right. Okay, so that's, so you had mentioned a
• 36:43
  seven at one point there for yourself, was it that you, what were you saying about a seven?
• 36:48
  And now you can go on and praise and laud sevens, of course. I think sevens are awesome. I love
• 36:52
  sevens. I think the adventure-seeking, fun-loving side of it. I definitely love to travel and I love
• 37:00
  new adventures and I think I'm a pretty spontaneous person. So those are kind of qualities that I
• 37:05
  I associated, I think, with a seven.
• 37:07
  I think at the time when I thought I was maybe a seven, it was because I was avoiding a lot of the pain and discomfort.
• 37:14
  I was gonna say, tell us about the dark side of seven because I'm okay with that.
• 37:17
  I've got it pulled up in front of me here and I love what you're saying,
• 37:20
  and I wanna tell you, I so appreciated the work you were doing at that time when I did reach out to you
• 37:25
  because you did make me feel seen with that because your explanation, what you did with the Enneagrams
• 37:30
  was my go-to, where I went to with that.
• 37:33
  And it was funny because there was all the positive side, which I thought, that's amazing,
• 37:37
  that then I was okay with the, I call it the dark side, but it's probably not that.
• 37:41
  Yeah. Yeah. So do you feel like you didn't identify with that hidden side as much?
• 37:46
  I think that struggle to feel the pain and discomfort, I definitely was feeling it,
• 37:52
  but I was not showing it externally.
• 37:56
  And so I would be smiling, but I'd be like, oh man, I'm just really torn up inside,
• 38:02
  but nobody would know that around me because I was wanted to come across as positive.
• 38:08
  But I do think with the sevens, that was kind of a thing that they were like,
• 38:12
  no, they really do push those hard feelings away.
• 38:16
  Yes, they do. So I was like, no, they're in me.
• 38:20
  Yeah, I think that sevens are great at being that person that will uplift other people and they have great energy.
• 38:28
  And I really love the sevens in my life. They bring so much fun.
• 38:31
  Maybe fun to have around and then you send them home when they get to be a little much.
• 38:37
  Yeah, and it's kind of like a fun challenging thing to bring maybe some of those deeper parts of them out because they're definitely there. I just think it's them needing that safe space.
• 38:49
  You're saying it very kind. Okay, but the four, what is that hidden side of the four?
• 38:56
  I think a lot of times people associate fours with the very emotionally over the emotional type that they're,
• 39:04
  externally like you can really see it on them and with the subtype that I found that I was it was,
• 39:11
  the opposite where there be.
• 39:13
  Like I said everything's inside internalized and you're not gonna see it on the outside there try to be strong and,
• 39:20
  and seem like stoic, but they definitely are, have a lot of emotion hiding behind that.
• 39:27
  But I think a lot of the fours, you know when they're like in a good or bad mood.
• 39:32
  It's all over them. Yeah, okay.
• 39:34
  And maybe I've done this backwards too. You had mentioned earlier the wings.
• 39:38
  And so can you talk a little bit about that or how that works?
• 39:41
  Yeah, so each number, you would have a wing either on the left or right side of it.
• 39:46
  So if you were a four, you could have a four-wing three or a four-wing five.
• 39:51
  So it's only gonna be in the number before or after it. And that means that you would pull a lot of the.
• 39:58
  Characteristics also from that other number. So each one has a different name, the wing types,
• 40:05
  but say for instance, a four, if they have a wing three, then they're going to be kind of
• 40:10
  more motivated by achievements, but their core motivation is still going to be what a four
• 40:15
  would be. And then like a seven, you can have a wing six or a wing eight. I think like a wing
• 40:20
  I think six is very loyalist.
• 40:25
  I think like the preppers, they think ahead and are nervous about the future and other
• 40:31
  things that could happen. It's very good about being vigilant and preparing for all outcomes.
• 40:37
  And then the eight is the challenger or protector. And I feel like they're like, to me, kind of like the activists, they stand up for the,
• 40:45
  underprivileged people.
• 40:48
  So, I love that. But yeah, that's kind of how the wings work.
• 40:51
  Okay, well, in that one, cause I am none of the six, but a lot of that eight does resonate.
• 40:58
  I love what you were saying earlier, you have to find yourself.
• 41:00
  I did 10 years in a career I didn't care about and didn't know that I could care as much about something.
• 41:05
  And in this mental health space, I want nothing more than to preach it from the rooftops.
• 41:09
  So I've never really thought about it that way of maybe identifying that more with the eight, that concept.
• 41:14
  So for you then, So the wing five and five is the investigator,
• 41:19
  is that what it is? And three is the achiever. So do you identify more with the achiever then?
• 41:23
  I think so.
• 41:25
  I think just, I wanna be successful and have a positive impact on people
• 41:34
  and like in my career, but it's not, I don't think like what gives me that sense
• 41:40
  of like self-worth and confidence, but definitely is a driving force for what I do.
• 41:47
  And then the five, they're a little bit more analytical, kind of more introverted,
• 41:53
  and it reminds me of my dad.
• 41:55
  He's very logical and very private. And so I think a lot of times fives,
• 42:01
  they're kind of good at investigating things, doing research.
• 42:06
  It sounds like that would require patience and things like that.
• 42:08
  Yes. And they're definitely very much like my space. protect it. Do they? Okay. Yeah. What are your thoughts on, and I think it's one of
• 42:17
  these where I'm setting you up to want to validate what I think about it. So
• 42:21
  when people hear these, I find that sometimes people say, well, what are you
• 42:25
  gonna do? I'm a seven. Or versus, hey, this is some data. What are your thoughts on that.
• 42:31
  I do think like when I first was learning about it, I was like, okay, that makes sense for why I'm doing this. And it's just me. That's how I am. And it is easy to fall into that. And I think at first, you're like, okay, I feel very seen by this. But the whole point of the Enneagram is to build awareness around these motivations, so that you can hopefully change them or be better at recognizing when maybe a pattern is coming up and challenging that.
• 42:59
  Well, I love that because that's the part when I first learned about it, I didn't spend
• 43:02
  enough time reading about those that the hidden parts or the those kind of things because
• 43:07
  I felt like that. Yeah, I love what you said. I felt so seen by the here's what it is. And,
• 43:11
  then I almost felt very vulnerable when it said and here's these parts that are lurking
• 43:16
  down below. I almost felt like it was some of that shadow self from Jung's work or that
• 43:21
  and when we expose that and into the light, it's maybe not as scary as we think it is.
• 43:26
  Yes. I was like, should we go through the other numbers? So that we Oh, if you don't mind, I feel I feel bad actually asking
• 43:32
  you to do so. But I've never done a podcast with anything about the Enneagram.
• 43:34
  If I know if I was listening, I was like, Wait, I want to hear my number.
• 43:38
  Thank you. Okay. Yeah. Can you talk about those?
• 43:40
  Yeah. Okay. So there's nine types. So number one, I have a cheat sheet. I'm just gonna read it. Good. I can't write. But
• 43:47
  number one is the perfectionist reformer. They're the individuals are driven by a desire to be good, right and
• 43:54
  and morally upright.
• 43:56
  They have a strong sense of responsibility and strive for perfection.
• 43:59
  They are often principled, organized, and detail-oriented, but can also be critical and judgmental.
• 44:05
  So I guess that's the downside of the one. Yeah, and do you know ones in your life?
• 44:10
  Yes, my mom is, I feel like, a one. She's taken a test and she's been between a one and a two,
• 44:16
  which would make sense because they're next to each other. but she's very.
• 44:22
  Very good at being very responsible and on top of things. And she's definitely, it's very,
• 44:30
  right or wrong for her. There's always a line and it's not, there's no gray area. So she's
• 44:37
  definitely, I think, driven by those goals to be good and to do things right.
• 44:43
  Well, I like you and I appreciate you bringing this up because the clients that I work with
• 44:47
  that do identify with Enneagram types, I feel like that is trying to meet them where they're
• 44:51
  at that a one when they can really be aware of that all or nothing thinking that that can really
• 44:58
  help them once they recognize that not just go well what am I going to do but now sit with some
• 45:03
  discomfort of taking in somebody else's opinion and really looking at that as their opinion.
• 45:09
  Yeah for sure being a little bit more open-minded and less self-critical I think their inner voice
• 45:14
  is so strong and my mom's always you know I'm harder on myself than anybody could be
• 45:20
  towards me. So it's definitely challenging that inner voice that's telling you you're not good enough all the time.
• 45:26
  Yeah, that's deep. Man, okay, now I'm saying, okay, we're gonna have to do a part two at
• 45:30
  some point as well. I would love to just explore this because that part,
• 45:33
  because you know how that shows up in the therapist's office often, is that
• 45:37
  control. When I talk about you can have love or control in an adult relationship,
• 45:40
  not both. And when you assume good intentions or everybody's just trying their best with what they know, then that's where I feel like, oh man, no, I
• 45:48
  I can't that person can't have a completely different opinion or else they're saying mine's wrong and they'll leave me,
• 45:54
  Which is not the case Yeah, and that's definitely where I think as a mom-daughter relationship that we've had to navigate where it's like, okay
• 46:02
  You can have your opinion I can have mine. We don't have to get to the same place. Yeah, I'm agreeing,
• 46:07
  So yeah, okay So number two is the helper giver and these individuals are motivated by a need to be loved and appreciated,
• 46:15
  They are caring, generous, and nurturing, often putting others' needs before their own.
• 46:20
  They excel at building relationships and providing support, but may struggle with neglecting
• 46:23
  their own needs or setting boundaries.
• 46:27
  When I talk about the people that get in relationships, the pathologically kind, and it sounds like such a good trait to just be all giving and I will take care of everything for everybody and so that they can succeed. But then at some point, you lose your sense of self. And so I feel like that one speaks to that Enneagram type quite a bit.
• 46:46
  Yeah, I think these people are easily taken advantage of because they do want to be there
• 46:53
  for everybody and do everything.
• 46:57
  And I like I love the twos in my life, but you do have to be aware that like, okay, they
• 47:03
  will say yes to your request and, and making sure that they feel loved and supported for.
• 47:11
  Their things because they might not reach out for.
• 47:14
  Yeah, that help.
• 47:15
  Yeah, already. Will you come back on and we'll do this? Yes.
• 47:19
  Keep going though, because now I just want you to call out your psychology background and we'll talk about these and we'll just nerd out for a while.
• 47:26
  Yes. Okay. Okay. Should I read three again? Yeah, sure.
• 47:31
  I was like, we kind of touched on it.
• 47:33
  Just a quick explanation of the three. They're the achiever, performer. Individuals are focused on success and achieving their goals.
• 47:40
  They are driven, ambitious, and highly adaptable.
• 47:43
  They excel at presenting themselves in a positive light and are often seen as confident and charismatic.
• 47:49
  However, they struggle with a fear of failure and losing their sense of identity.
• 47:54
  I think the threes in my life, I know that they've felt at times that it's hard to take.
• 48:00
  That mask off for the people that they're close to because the way they present themselves
• 48:07
  the world that is maybe a little bit different than how they really view themselves. And so
• 48:14
  not feeling like they have to be on all the time, I think is something that they've said they've
• 48:19
  struggled with. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So the type four is that individualist romantic. They are driven
• 48:26
  by a need to be unique and authentic. They are highly creative, introspective and emotionally
• 48:30
  sensitive. They often experience a range of intense emotions and have a deep longing for
• 48:35
  meaning and significance. They may struggle with feelings of envy and a sense of being misunderstood.
• 48:42
  And that's where you're kind of saying... I think it's a core.
• 48:46
  I can speak to definitely the envy. I think that's been a hard thing for me to not compare myself to,
• 48:53
  everyone and every situation. Like I want, I wish I had this person's relationship or I wish I was
• 49:00
  as good as this artist and just,
• 49:03
  not going down that rabbit hole. Now knowing that you were just putting content out there,
• 49:08
  now you've got a tremendous following.
• 49:10
  Was that hard, that part alone to all of a sudden, you're put in this position of you are
• 49:16
  this artist and you have a lot of followers and you are having success.
• 49:19
  Then are you immediately comparing because other people that are at that level?
• 49:23
  Yeah. That voice in my head is always like, why me? Why am I getting these jobs?
• 49:28
  There's somebody better. Oh, yeah.
• 49:31
  Yeah. And that is something that I have to challenge. You are doing good things. And like, you are obviously good too. So having to say affirmations and stuff like that. It's been helpful. And just fighting that voice in my head. That's like, you're not good enough at this. And, and seeing like the proof that no, I am proving that I belong.
• 49:53
  Okay, so type 5, the investigator observer, their individuals are motivated by a need for knowledge and understanding. They are analytical, independent, and often introverted. They excel at gathering information and have a strong desire for privacy and autonomy. They may struggle with social interactions and can be seen as detached or aloof.
• 50:13
  Interesting. Okay. I know of one of them and I didn't that detached and aloof piece. I think I was missing but that it is funny because it not trying to confirmation bias my way onto something. Oh, now I get it. But it really does. It really does resonate and it almost gives me more empathy for the person and what they're struggling with.
• 50:29
  Yeah, it really helps. I think the Enneagram and relationships and understanding other people in your life and,
• 50:36
  And as a place to even start from, but even if it's a place of curiosity or tell me more,
• 50:41
  do you identify with these things?
• 50:43
  Yeah, and it really has helped me in some of the relationships that I maybe was butting heads with,
• 50:48
  Like, oh, okay, I understand now maybe why you're making the decisions you're making better.
• 50:54
  Where they're coming from. Okay, the sixth is the loyalist, loyal skeptic. Their individuals are
• 51:00
  driven by a need for security and safety. They are loyal, responsible, and highly vigilant.
• 51:05
  They excel at anticipating potential problems and are often prepared for various scenarios.
• 51:10
  However, they may struggle with anxiety and tendencies to doubt themselves and others.
• 51:15
  Okay, and again, that part is the part, it's the way that it's like, the way you're reading that
• 51:19
  and your cheat sheet is wonderful because I love how it starts with a yeah, and then it's oh yeah.
• 51:25
  And also. Yeah, yeah.
• 51:29
  Okay, type seven, enthusiast. They are individuals that are motivated by a need
• 51:34
  for stimulation and variety. They are adventurous, optimistic and seek out new experiences.
• 51:39
  They excel at brainstorming and are often seen as fun loving and spontaneous. However,
• 51:43
  they may struggle with a fear of missing out and avoiding pain or discomfort.
• 51:48
  Yeah, I was like, yep, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're the FOMO number.
• 51:53
  Exactly. And I just have to say real quick too, in that computer industry, I was dying every day.
• 52:00
  And as I started doing therapy, and then I was writing, and I was speaking, and I started
• 52:03
  podcasting, and I'm seeing a variety of clients, and I kept thinking to myself, well, I'm not
• 52:08
  supposed to do this. I got to figure out one of them.
• 52:11
  And I know it was the weirdest thing to finally get to a place where I guess, or I guess this is okay.
• 52:15
  Yeah, you can do it all. now it's like the great now I want to do more and give me more
• 52:19
  things. Yeah,
• 52:20
  I think that's great. Like you definitely need this constant simulation to change not having that monotonous lifestyle. Yeah,
• 52:27
  I think it's helpful for sevens. Okay, type eight, the challenger protector, their individuals are driven by a need
• 52:34
  for control and power. They are assertive, confident and protective. They excel at taking charge and standing up for
• 52:40
  themselves and others. However, they may struggle with a fear of vulnerability and a tendency to be domineering or
• 52:46
  confrontational.
• 52:48
  So they, I feel like the eights that I know are definitely, they have a strong personality.
• 52:54
  They are really, they come across as very confident, but they're always kind of the one
• 52:58
  that stands up for the underdog. And I love that about them. And then that one's, I want to
• 53:02
  jokingly say one of the good problems to have, like in a job interview, tell me something that
• 53:06
  you struggle with being too caring or, right. I'm too confident and protective.
• 53:13
  Oh, okay. And what do we got left? Nine?
• 53:17
  And then last, the nine, the peacemaker, their individuals are motivated by a need for inner
• 53:22
  peace and harmony. They are easygoing, agreeable, and seek to avoid conflict. They excel at creating
• 53:27
  a calm and peaceful environment. However, they may struggle with being passive and a tendency
• 53:32
  to avoid addressing their own needs and desires. So sometimes I think nines can take on the other
• 53:38
  characteristics of the other numbers because they would rather just go along
• 53:43
  with the flow and not disrupt things.
• 53:47
  That one's a challenge because even in this world of acceptance and commitment therapy and you're the only version of you and you think and feel the way you do, I find that this one I identify with that where somebody will say,
• 53:56
  what if my core values are being that flexible or being the chameleon or and
• 54:01
  then I want to yeah but them and say well yeah but you that isn't your sense of
• 54:05
  self. But then if the person views that as their sense of self, then who am I to tell them that you should be something
• 54:12
  different. And so that one's a really interesting one.
• 54:15
  Yeah, I do think when I was also going through a tough time, I was like, Am I nine? Because I did feel like that people
• 54:21
  pleaser side of things. And trying to be agreeable and easy going was definitely a strong trait. But yeah, I think like
• 54:28
  with the Enneagram, there's growth points and stress points.
• 54:31
  And I think we haven't we didn't go into that. But there's so much more you could go into, but each number during a stressful time will go
• 54:38
  to another number and pull their negative characteristics as well as if they are in a good place, they'll pull.
• 54:46
  Good characteristics from their growth number. So there's all kind of great paths that you can take
• 54:50
  with it and there's so much information that can really help people with awareness.
• 54:56
  I would say now watch. So here's where my seven kicked in and I said, okay, Mackenzie,
• 55:00
  so I think that then we need to do a podcast and then every week we'll take calls from people and
• 55:05
  then we will break down their Enneagram type and at the end I'll give some psychology diagnosis and
• 55:11
  you will draw an amazing digital creation that exemplifies everything about the person. Does,
• 55:16
  that work? I would love that. That'd be amazing. I'm down. You have no idea that I'm thinking,
• 55:21
  okay, well, it sounds good to me. Okay. Thank you so much for coming on. This was... No, thank you.
• 55:26
  I mean, I really, I really would like if you're open to coming back on because I really enjoyed
• 55:30
  getting to know more about you. And now I feel like we just touched on this thing that I can
• 55:34
  tell you know a lot about. And I'm over here having all these ahas and epiphanies. Maybe
• 55:38
  Maybe I'll brush up a little bit more on the Enneagram and maybe we can come on and we can break some of those down
• 55:43
  and even people could reach out
• 55:44
  and share some examples of situations they're going through and I think that'd be fun if you're open to it.
• 55:48
  Yes, of course, that'd be awesome. Okay. This is definitely something that I've loved, so.
• 55:52
  Okay, well, I'm excited. Okay, and then I'll put your Linktree link in the show notes
• 55:56
  and I just have to tell you one quick thing too.
• 55:58
  When I went to your Etsy shop, I expected it to be a lot more expensive.
• 56:01
  So it's very affordable, which is amazing.
• 56:04
  Yeah, and I print them from my house and maybe that's why I can keep the cost low.
• 56:10
  But yeah, it's very affordable.
• 56:11
  It's incredible, it is. Okay, what a joy.
• 56:14
  Hey, so I realized that cut off a little abruptly, but I hope you enjoyed the interview with McKenzie.
• 56:19
  And please go check out all of her work on our Etsy shop, on our Instagram page, and look at that thumbnail now.
• 56:25
  And I am just, I am thrilled to have a McKenzie, a McKenzie Mitchell original there
• 56:32
  with her and I both in that picture.
• 56:34
  So taking us out per usual and go check out Jeff and Aurora.
• 56:38
  This is the Aurora Florence with her song, It's Wonderful, but go check out her crowdfunding Too Soon,
• 56:45
  the movie that we talked about.
• 56:46
  I had her on a few weeks ago, but you can still be a part of that project.
• 56:50
  But taking us out per usual, the wonderful, the talented, and soon to be acting in the movie Too Soon,
• 56:55
  Aurora Florence with her song, It's Wonderful.
• 56:57
  Music.
• 1:00:18
  Have a great day.