Latest / The Good Builder Podcast / The Daily Dose #290 | Philip Livingston, Vital Ease Home Modifications, Duty of Care, and the Sector Builders Are Missing

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The Daily Dose #290 | Philip Livingston, Vital Ease Home Modifications, Duty of Care, and the Sector Builders Are Missing · The Good Builder Podcast

• Aaron Ng (00:00.322) Mate, very easy going. I've got a couple of hours behind this. So if the chat also goes longer, that's not an issue at all. Even this bit of press record, I've got to get our editor to cut it all out. anyway, all right, straight now. Here we go, mate. Okay. Well, good morning and welcome to the Good Builder podcast. Today's guest is Philip Livingston. Philip (00:00.686) Yeah, it's cool. Philip (00:10.764) Okay, that's good. Philip (00:16.686) I saw that. Aaron Ng (00:29.056) I actually just had a quick chat to him before the podcast. And I think he embodied just everything that Vitalese and himself are about. The last thing he said to me before I hit record was, just want to help. Philip is a trades coordinator at Vitalese, a Melbourne based home modification specialist working across aged care centers, NDIS and private clients. Vitalese is a registered NDIS provider, a VBA license builder. and approved supplier under the statewide equipment program. So they do a fair bit of stuff in this space. And we've actually never spoken about this on the Good Builder podcast. And I said to Philip before this podcast, I'm not sure why, and this is going to be a really fascinating one. They work closely with occupational therapists, case managers, and families to deliver modifications that are safe, compliant, built to last. And I think more importantly, and something that Philip raised is, They make the lifestyle or the life of the person that actually inhabits the home livable and better. It makes their life better. And I think that's what we miss a bit in construction. What makes Phil's perspectives valuable is that he sits right in the intersections of trades and the funded care system. He understands the building work, the compliance requirements and the people on the other end, which I think is just as important. This is a really important conversation because one in six Australians are now aged over 65. And within a decade, that 85 and older cohort will jump to about 67 % crossing 1 million people. So that is a lot in this sector. It's my absolute pleasure to bring this gentleman on the podcast. I can't wait to get a bit of an insight into what he does. And it's my pleasure to welcome you into the couch. Philip, how are you, mate? Philip (02:21.55) Yeah, great. Thanks. It's a pleasure to be here. Looking forward to it. Aaron Ng (02:26.04) Yeah, well, mate, you work in a in a very, very interesting space. So as I said, we've never had it on the podcast, I think. To Phillips credit, I just want to say that to everyone out here, Philip was the one who approached us, we actually didn't approach Philip, Philip was like, I want to talk about this, I want to talk about how to do it properly, how we do it and introduce it to the building community. So my first I wanted to start with, where did Philip, come from, mate. You're a very proactive guy. I love your energy. I love what we talked about before the pod. And I just loved your philosophy. As I said, before we jumped on, you're just like, we just want to help. Philip (02:54.894) sorry. Philip (03:06.19) Yeah, no, well, the story is long. I've been in the construction industry for a long time, for 30, 40 years. Started off as a mechanical engineer, went into project management, major projects, to travel all over the world. Had enough of doing that. Went back and just worked for a small local building company. hands-on because I love the hands-on stuff as well. And then life changes. had a bit of a medical episode. I like, okay, I really need to be less physical and let's go back to more main project and the opportunity to come up with Vitalese. They're a young company. Hadn't been operating long, but I just really liked the vision. I like Aaron Ng (03:37.059) Yeah. Philip (04:01.71) their whole attitude about helping people, making better life choices for people. And I've got an elderly mother, so I understand where, you know, what's happening and what she needs and I'll tell you, I've been with them for maybe 14 months now and loving it. It's just so great. The opportunity to go into people's homes is a privilege to start off with and then being able to help them. Aaron Ng (04:22.477) Yeah. Philip (04:31.438) So they can stay in their homes. Some of them have been in their homes for 50 60 years, know They built the homes. They've seen their families grow up. They've got grandkids grandkids grandkids And so they don't want to leave they don't want to now be put in a home, you know tucked away They want to be part of you know, continuing their lives in a place that they have so many memories in them so much. Well so the opportunity to be able to facilitate that to make them better Aaron Ng (04:33.902) Okay. Wow. Wow. Philip (05:00.276) Staying at home is just such a privilege. Aaron Ng (05:03.788) Yeah, mate, it must be. It must be so rewarding. I actually was nearly going to get emotional on that one, Philip, when you said that, mate, because, yeah, you think about it or you think about the memories. I know this is off topic, Philip, but I used to work in, Mervac in Bundaberg. So Bundaberg got flooded in 2013 and I was in the commercial construction sector and I went up there during the floods to try and help build this shopping centre. Philip (05:24.056) Yeah. Aaron Ng (05:27.672) But along the way, I actually went to a retirement village. don't know. We haven't spoken about this because we really haven't spoken before. This is the first time Phillip and I have spoken. So mate, I went up there to a retirement village when it was flooded and I burst into tears helping these clients like take stuff out of their home. And it was like, again, even though it was a retirement village, it was their home. was, you know, everything. It was everything to them. And I couldn't imagine Philip (05:33.966) The first time. Philip (05:55.82) Yeah, it's precious. Aaron Ng (05:57.698) You know, going to a home, like you said, the family home that's been in the family for 50, 60 years, you see your family grow up through it. You don't want to leave. Things get, you know, more difficult as we get older. We all go through it and you come along and you make the space livable and you actually make it better. You improve their lives. You improve their lives because you're able to make it, you know, an accessible home. They're able to go and do stuff. I think that is wonderful film. Philip (06:20.822) Absolutely. Yep. Aaron Ng (06:24.632) And I was going to ask you because there's not many builders, as I said, that I speak to, and I don't think many builders exposed to this sector of the market. But what is it actually like? You kind of just described it. What does it look like from where you sit and what are the main things that you want to sort of talk about today as well? Philip (06:45.09) Really the aspect of providing that care. So the service that we provide, the booting service we provide, has to be done in the environment, in the knowledge that you're there to make their life better. You're not there just to provide a service. We don't just put in a ramp, a grab rail, a renovation, kitchen. We provide a way that their life can be better. Aaron Ng (07:12.492) Love it. Philip (07:12.598) and they can be happy and extend it. And we have to have that mindset when our guys to go in to do the work, they have to have the mindset, there it's a privilege to do this. And so we need to do it right. And we need to do it so that they are comfortable with what's happening in their home. So it's a complete, maybe holistic is probably not the right word, but that's... Aaron Ng (07:34.808) Yeah. Aaron Ng (07:39.266) No, I think so. Philip (07:41.034) It's the process that's not just, here's a product, whack it in, I've gone. Aaron Ng (07:45.922) Yeah, it's very interesting, mate. As I've been doing this good builder thing, I think your mindset would be great if all builders took it on board, to be honest with you. You know, if we all just look at it, because a home is so important to everyone, I think more important, what you do, I honestly think is one of the most important sectors of the market, without a doubt. I don't care what anyone says. I really think what you do is very honourable. I think it is one of the most important services you can provide. Philip (07:56.341) you Aaron Ng (08:15.364) But if we all took on that mindset of, see how we can improve the lives of people who live there. I think we just have a better industry. Obviously, you you kind of already do it. One of the other things I wanted to talk about, you know, is that, and I mentioned it in the intro was, you know, the over 65 population is just exploding. You know, we're getting older. From your perspective, is the industry keeping up with Philip (08:22.988) Yeah. Aaron Ng (08:43.17) the demand of these villages and NDIS places and things like that. And also from your perspective, I'd love to hear Philip, are we doing the right thing by the client? Philip (08:52.568) Yeah. I think the sector is obviously growing, but people in it are not growing. There's a lot of people that fly in, fly out, but their mindset is wrong and they do more harm than good. So I've seen some very sad things happening, people putting in a simple grab rail. Aaron Ng (09:10.626) you seen that a lot, Philip? Have you seen all that a lot? Aaron Ng (09:16.099) Yeah. Philip (09:19.66) A grab rail is, there's an Australian standard for it. It's rated a minimum 113 kilograms. That's the base one. There's obviously an ambulance one, there's heavier jigs thing. But they're just put into plaster walls, not into studs. You see, I've seen, well, two weeks ago, I went to a client's place. The client had a broken nose, had a trip, fell, grabbed the grab rail, which is what it's there for. It was just held in by plaster screws. Aaron Ng (09:22.585) Yeah. Yep. Aaron Ng (09:48.984) Wadi. Philip (09:49.738) It ripped out, they went down, smashed their face up, still got the rail in their hand. It's going, you know, who did that? And it was supposedly an accredited builder. Someone that didn't have care. you know, my role is what I get from my guys is that they do have a duty of care. Aaron Ng (10:14.721) Love it. Philip (10:15.054) That's your mother lying on the ground with the face bleeding, you that's your father, that's your grandmother. And so that mindset needs to be, anyone that works in this sector needs to have that mindset that it's not a matter of just taking shortcuts. You know, you have a duty of care, yeah, to make this person right. So there's Australian standards, they're there for a reason, you know. Aaron Ng (10:19.992) Mm. Aaron Ng (10:30.029) Yeah. Yeah. Mmm. Aaron Ng (10:40.067) Yeah. Aaron Ng (10:43.49) Yeah, absolutely. That's a shame. That is such a real shame and to see cowboys flowing in and in an industry like that and take advantage of it, I think is disgusting, actually. Philip (10:44.212) Shortcuts hurt people. So that's what. Philip (10:57.858) Yeah, they're there after a quick buck and then, you know, they're gone. And the other person could, you know, potentially end in hospital, seeing them broken hips, you know. But it's, yeah, it's just disgusting. Aaron Ng (11:01.07) Yeah, I'll say that. Aaron Ng (11:10.37) Yeah. And beyond the reputation of the industry, which is what we're all about protecting at The Good Builder, think worse, like you said, I think to the person, I mean, just the trauma of not being able to trust your own home. And I think that's what you do. You enable them to trust their own home and trust themselves that they can live in it. I think that is sort of the worst kind of craftsmanship or whatever you would call it. Philip (11:17.293) Yeah. Philip (11:32.696) Well, yeah, that's why it's that relationship we build from the moment I walk in there with the occupational therapist and going through what their needs are to making them feel comfortable with this is how the house is going to change, this is what we're doing. To when our guys walk in, they are the greeting if they're offered a cup of tea, take the cup of tea. You know? Aaron Ng (11:56.398) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Philip (11:57.326) It's not about, if it's going to take you 10 minutes to do the job and you're there for an hour, I don't care. As long as they're happy, they're comfortable, because a stranger coming into their home is a big deal. So they need to have that rapport. And they can trust what we've done is correct. So yeah, it's more than just a simple... Aaron Ng (12:03.747) Yeah. Aaron Ng (12:11.423) yeah. Yeah. Aaron Ng (12:16.056) Yeah. Philip (12:26.904) putting up a rail or building something, there's a lot. Aaron Ng (12:31.85) No, no, as I said, Philip, I thought this was going to be fascinating because I think the only other sort of person and not in your space at all, Philip, the only other person we've had on was a Willow Grove Granny Flats in Melbourne. You might have, I don't know if you've ever heard of them, but lovely lady. And she builds Granny Flats for elderly parents and obviously, you know, extended family and things like that. And I said to her, what's Philip (12:47.884) Mm-hmm. Yes. Philip (12:56.045) Yeah. Aaron Ng (12:59.438) probably one of the main differences about what you do. And yours is a little different because you're making it livable and you're making their lives better. She's too, but you know, they're probably not at that end of the scale kind of thing. And she said to me, the biggest thing is actually sitting down and understanding them. And they love to tell you their life story. And they like to, you've got to get to know them because you get to know things they need. Like, how do you move around the house? How do you do this? It's a much more intricate. Philip (13:12.195) Mm-hmm. Philip (13:16.845) Yeah. Aaron Ng (13:27.97) I'm gonna use this word and I reckon it's completely wrong and Philip, please shut me down. But it's a, it's a, it's probably a, a much more intricate sales process is the worst word I could ever use right now, but process to get them and understand what you're trying to achieve for me. Would that be correct, mate? Philip (13:32.366) You Philip (13:41.122) you Philip (13:46.83) Yeah, absolutely. Like they need to know what their needs are and for them to show you that is a developing of trust. And then you have to operate within the standards. Aaron Ng (13:55.491) Yeah, well. Philip (14:01.728) they don't understand necessarily what the standards are. And you say, well, I need a ramp to access the front of your property. You have a wheelchair, a walker, the ramp is one and 14 gradient. Therefore the ramp is X long. no, that's too long. I don't want that. Just make me one that's short. Well, they said, no, well, no, I can't because that's what this trans standard says. And it wouldn't work. It would be dangerous. Aaron Ng (14:01.986) Yeah. Aaron Ng (14:05.506) Yeah. Aaron Ng (14:22.083) Yeah. Aaron Ng (14:29.932) Yeah. Yeah. Philip (14:32.478) And, oh, you build that rapport, they believe you, they trust you and they go, oh, okay, so I can't do that. because I'm trying to care for your needs. This is what you need. Maybe we can put it at the back of the house instead of the front of the house. Would that work better for you? And I go, oh, okay, and will it look like a hospital? No, we can make it out of this, we can make it out of that. Aaron Ng (14:47.449) Yeah. Philip (14:56.448) it can be this color or that color. And really? Okay. So now we've met the criteria that the Australian standard says and they're comfortable with how that's going to impact their house and how that will impact their lives. But you've got to have that flexibility to do that, which the only way you're going to get that is don't make them understand. You'll be surprised the number of people say, you know, don't Aaron Ng (14:58.5) What? Aaron Ng (15:08.662) Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Aaron Ng (15:20.205) MASS Philip (15:23.404) put that ramp there because it will mean the Rosebusha have to go. The Rosebusha has been there for 40 years. It was planted by great-aunts such and such. And you know, that's got memories. Well, okay. But where does the ramp go then? Maybe we can't put a ramp in. Maybe we have to do something else. And I respect the fact that, the Rosebook has some sentimental... I could just rip the thing out and go, cares? But no, I have to respect what's there. Aaron Ng (15:29.828) This is it. Aaron Ng (15:34.435) Yeah. Aaron Ng (15:41.7) Boy. Aaron Ng (15:46.872) Yep. Philip (15:52.276) It needs that. So, yeah. Aaron Ng (15:54.112) I love this conversation, mate. I knew this was going to be fascinating. Even that is so cool, Philip, you know, to, you know, to go to that extent, to understand your client, and then build from, let alone buildings, buildings, hard buildings, all of that. You've got another level of complexity that I think a lot of builders in Australia don't really have. And I think like the more I'm talking to you, I I'm like, you're blowing my mind. I I've never been in this space. So I. I never thought about, you know, Mrs. Smith's Rose Bush that's been there for 40 years. But I know, you know, grandparents and mine and early, you know, friends of mine, there are some really sentimental things and ways they do stuff that you just can't mess with. Philip (16:31.448) Yeah. Philip (16:42.646) Now, you go to a place and you'll see their garden is immaculate. And you think, okay, that's their passion. And I'm going to put a six metre long, 1.2 metre wide ramp right through the middle of it. You know that's just not going to happen. They're going to fight you all the way. I don't care whether it's regulation or something like that. They're just going to fight you all the way. That is not going to happen. That's my garden. It's my pride and joy. I've always looked after it. That's, you know, that's their quality of life. Aaron Ng (16:46.198) Yes, I'll have it. Yeah. Aaron Ng (16:53.934) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I love it. Aaron Ng (17:07.288) Yeah. Philip (17:12.008) you're gonna actually be right mate I just put a rant right through that yeah well you're good Aaron Ng (17:12.164) Yeah. and this is why I think this is a really important conversation to you've raised several points here on the podcast already for that. You know, really shows the expertise and specialist you are. And I think it's a forewarning for other ones for Cowboys out there, particularly the one to take advantage of this industry as well. think that, you know, I personally. I you just shouldn't do it. think it's to do that to the most vulnerable is horrible. Number one. then that, yeah, sorry, mate, you can, you can go on. That was my feeling too. Philip (17:47.946) Exactly. They're vulnerable people. And this is what... Nah, I just say they're just vulnerable and you're taking advantage of that vulnerability, which I just think that's low. know, realistically, what does that show about your business, about your standards? How long are you going to be around if that's what you do? It's not that. Aaron Ng (18:01.731) Yeah. Aaron Ng (18:10.019) Yeah. No. Philip (18:14.914) That's, you're in the wrong sector if that's your attitude. You know, just, it's seriously, it's not okay. So as I said, I see that a lot and you just ride with it and you try and do the right thing. They've been burnt, okay, well let's work it out. Aaron Ng (18:18.38) Yeah. Aaron Ng (18:21.955) Yeah. Aaron Ng (18:25.54) What? Philip (18:34.602) And that's not even where you're going to get from in there. You're going to get into the standards of NDIS standards and dealing with our occupational therapists and care providers. there's now that all that framework behind the scenes that once we've established what's needed, how are we going to structure that? How are we going to fund that? Which is a whole new game again. Aaron Ng (18:56.504) Yeah. So you were saying you were just saying there that you do get people coming to you after they've been ripped off and vulnerable and you come in and try and fix the situation. They might be out of pocket. They might be. Wow. Philip (19:08.141) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So they've been hurt twice because they've been hurt financially and they've been hurt physically because they've been given something that doesn't work. Over at Clasing Point, a ramp, just a simple access ramp. It was not so simple, I suppose. And the gradient was so steep, this person was in a wheelchair. They couldn't stop the wheelchair. It would go down the ramp. It's too steep. Aaron Ng (19:22.103) Yeah. Aaron Ng (19:27.086) Yeah. Yeah. Aaron Ng (19:33.102) Yeah. Philip (19:45.504) It was leading onto a busy road. The potential for a major catastrophe is huge. The poor carer that was holding this person back in the wheelchair was struggling to stop it from going too fast and barely could push it up the incline. Beautifully built ramp, just completely unfit for the purpose. Aaron Ng (19:48.388) the Aaron Ng (19:54.285) it would be. Aaron Ng (20:01.838) Yeah. Aaron Ng (20:09.86) Yeah. Philip (20:12.086) And then they've spent thousands of dollars on this. I come in there with an idea and go, well, that's no good. We're going to have to get rid of that. So my job is harder because, well, you know, what's wrong with it? Well, you know, what's wrong with it? It doesn't work. Can you reuse it? Can you, you know, I've spent half the money I've got in my package or more to do this. That's all I've got. So. Aaron Ng (20:20.996) Aaron Ng (20:28.056) Yeah. Philip (20:41.142) It's very, it's heartbreaking for sure. Aaron Ng (20:41.54) top right thing. When you turn up to those and I feel like, mate, I am, yeah, now I'm starting to get a little bit. I hope our listeners are too, what you go through day to day and why it's so important. And I think it's a good segue into the other thing. You know, we, we talked a little bit about cow cowboys and things like that. And, know, there could be some other operators that are thinking of coming in and then they're not cowboys. They're just, we want to get some good information out to them. What are some of the most. Philip (20:55.075) Yeah. Aaron Ng (21:11.712) complex and compliance involve things that tend to, you know, get builders unstuck when they get into the industry. Philip there is, you've spoken about a few of them, you know, you've spoken about the ramps and the incline and things like that. What's, what is it? Philip (21:20.984) Okay, yeah. Philip (21:26.136) So the first thing, obviously, register builder, then you've got to be registered with the NDIS, going through all the paperwork to do that. And then once you've got those things, then have to, we can only do a job if it's been recommended by an OT, occupational therapist. So the occupational therapist assesses the needs of the client. Most times I'll... Aaron Ng (21:32.388) What? Aaron Ng (21:45.772) Okay. Philip (21:55.214) one of our representatives usually, we'll go out with the OT and we will go through and assess the needs of the client. I like being there when that happens because the OT doesn't know building industry. They say, oh, we just need a rail here, a ramp there, this modified, the door made bigger. They have no idea whether it's a supporting wall, whether what's, you know, what the structure of the ground is, the material of the wall. They have no idea of that. Aaron Ng (22:08.663) Yeah. Aaron Ng (22:22.872) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Philip (22:24.098) They just say, this is what the person's going to need. So if I'm with them, I can go and go, well, we can't do that there because of, you know, there's pipe work, there's electricals, there's whatever. We need to modify that. Maybe it's more cost effective if we do this. And without the ATGAS RK and writes a report. And I can submit a quote to the AT based on that report. Aaron Ng (22:50.829) Where? Philip (22:51.83) And then once that report with my quote is that submitted to a case manager, a provider, whoever's looking after the funding for that individual. They then apply for that funding. The funding, if the funding's granted, the funding is fixed. Okay, so if the client wants something extra, it's not included, it's not funded, you can't provide it. Aaron Ng (23:20.164) Wow. Philip (23:20.596) If the client, you go to the client to put in, do the work, and the client says, want to move that to there, I want to change this to whatever can be great, you can't. Because you've only been approved to do what the OT listed in that report. So you are really constrained. Aaron Ng (23:38.308) Sorry. Philip, I might just grab a drink. I'm so sorry. my goodness. I can't believe this happened. This is the first time this has happened. Philip (23:46.222) He's dying quietly here. Philip (24:14.274) Yeah, so it went all blurry. Aaron Ng (24:20.32) I'm so sorry, Philip. That is a first. We are good. So we can keep going now. You were just saying you can only do what the OT says you can do. Sorry, Philip. Philip (24:21.89) good. Philip (24:29.942) Yes, what's been approved. So you can't change, you can't change the scope. You can't change anything outside of what's been nominated. So if the client then decides we go off to do the job and they say, I don't want that. I want you to put it X, Y, Z, change it. We can't do that without approval from the AT because the funding has been approved to do what was originally proposed. Aaron Ng (24:57.975) Wow. Philip (24:58.23) We have funding for nothing else. So variations are a non-existent thing. It is a fixed price contract. You do what you're told. That's it. So yeah, you can't go back and say, I was there for an extra hour, I added this or that. Yeah, good luck. That's come straight out your pocket. Aaron Ng (25:00.984) Holy mo- Aaron Ng (25:06.582) wow. Aaron Ng (25:11.288) Thank Aaron Ng (25:18.46) wow. And what about the price of material and everything like that? Does that affect you? That would affect you in the normal sort of way, wouldn't it? my goodness. Philip (25:20.333) What's that? Philip (25:29.622) Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I have to, you have to allow, okay, I think it's going to cost X amount of dollars and cross my fingers that I am good with my estimate. Yeah, obviously we're doing a major renovation. The big one there is asbestos. Who knows what's behind the wall. Aaron Ng (25:39.338) Ugh. Aaron Ng (25:51.075) Yeah. Aaron Ng (25:54.61) my goodness, mate. Philip (25:55.598) We have a clause and we can normally cut some wiggle room with them getting some extra funding to get asbestos, but you don't know. Aaron Ng (26:04.82) You are in one of the toughest games around. I'll tell you what, one of the things was, we talk a lot on the good builder about, know, thinking about your clients and all that sort of stuff. Your entire project is built around the client and their needs. Like to the, to the core of it, this is, you know, Philip (26:19.266) Yes. Yeah. Aaron Ng (26:25.816) that must be pretty hard. mean, you must come up against some interesting sort of things that people need when OTs advise you because they don't understand construction. So they're like, we need this there and that here. you're kind of like, how do we actually make that happen? So, and you're not building, Philip (26:38.019) Yeah. Aaron Ng (26:47.032) Wow, so everything is bespoke. Philip (26:50.676) Yeah, pretty much. everything's bespoke. we, yeah, that's true. The only thing I suppose a grab rail would be the only thing that's not that's off the shelf. Then there's different configurations that can be as well. Yes, so you may put a grab rail in, that's all fine. Get to the clients and they said, I want it to be blue. I don't want stainless steel. Who's gonna pay for the blue one? Aaron Ng (26:52.74) Yeah. Aaron Ng (26:59.71) my god. Yeah. Aaron Ng (27:06.692) What? Aaron Ng (27:16.024) Yeah, wow. Philip (27:19.886) I don't know how to get a blue. And that because of the usually the age demographic of our clients, it's a big deal when someone comes to their house. So if you come to their house and you go to put in do some job, then you find they want blue, you've only allowed for natural. Aaron Ng (27:22.948) you Aaron Ng (27:34.027) Yeah. Philip (27:44.502) you haven't got blue, you've got to go away and make it blue. Well, no, you came here to do the job. Where is the blue one? And I was never allowed. Yeah, then it begins. So then that's a big issue because, you know, we're gonna have to reschedule on that. Obviously, they have issues, medical issues and stuff like that. So when can you do it again? Aaron Ng (27:50.572) Well. Aaron Ng (27:56.03) my goodness. Philip (28:13.856) It's a fun thing. Aaron Ng (28:14.198) I think it must be one of the hardest type. As I said, we've never been exposed to this. and that's, we're kind of talking, you having scheduling issues, you're having a bespoke job pretty much every single time you're, creating a new plan for this particular client or person because they need something different because we're all different. as we get older, we all have different needs. And then you've got that. perspective of the OT, you know, sort of taking you through the construction piece, which of course you would advise on and actually do. But you locked into a budget that is a fixed price contract. Must be the hardest building company ever. Philip (28:53.57) Yeah, so yeah, it's tough, but we run training sessions for OTs. So they're aware of those, you know, of the Australian standards. They're aware of the constraints of things to look for. So we don't get fully into the trap of, didn't tell us it was like this. And they are more competent in their job. They're more comfortable in recommending things. Aaron Ng (29:03.03) Yeah. wow. Aaron Ng (29:11.651) Yeah. Philip (29:23.982) So yeah, that's part of my job as well. We run these training sessions for the ATs and it makes everyone's life easier. Aaron Ng (29:24.035) Yeah, right. Aaron Ng (29:33.198) Wow, Phil, how many jobs do you do a year, mate? How many projects? Philip (29:38.126) We would do a major project, which I would call a complete renovation, like a bathroom renovation or a kitchen renovation. We would do about every one, one and half weeks, we'd just start a new one of those. Ramps, we would run maybe one or two a week. And then there's all the general things. So I've got a team of six guys full time running around. Aaron Ng (29:58.935) What? Philip (30:06.388) and some dedicated contractors as well. Staff is a hard thing because we need to, they have to have that mentality that it's not just a nine to five job, it's not just do that and go away. We've got a duty of care. We have to have a policy of what happens if you knock at the door and they don't answer the door. Has the client had a fall? Has the client had a heart attack? Aaron Ng (30:11.842) Yeah Philip (30:36.078) What do we do? What's the process? So we have to have a process that we follow. Our guys know what that process is. We have meetings every Friday afternoon. We sit down, we debrief what's going on, what's coming up, what the latest practices are. Do you know what numbers to call if the client, if that's an issue? I've had clients, I think last year. Aaron Ng (30:36.37) man. Philip (31:05.654) three instances where the client has had a fall and they've got their clients not responding, go around the back and there's a client line in the garden. Okay, we have procedures that they follow to do that. But yeah, so it's not just the building job. need to know a bit more. So to try and find somebody that, you know, that it's willing to deal with that and willing to deal with someone in the... Aaron Ng (31:26.934) No, no. Aaron Ng (31:33.004) Yeah. Philip (31:35.502) A lot of our clients have nothing to do. They will stand there and watch you. And if a job takes 10 minutes or it takes, you know, two hours, they'll stand there and watch you. have nothing to do. If you've got a problem with that, this is not the industry for you. Aaron Ng (31:37.73) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Aaron Ng (31:45.997) Yeah. Aaron Ng (31:51.138) This is fascinating. You know, you almost remind me of, maybe there's a bad analogy. You like builders and Ambers in a way, doing a real service. Like, and even, you know, the way you come across actually, Philip, and I hope I'm not being weird here, but the way you come across is really, really nice, mate, really warm. You come across really professional. come across caring. Like you actually give a shit, which I absolutely love. Philip (32:01.324) Yeah. Aaron Ng (32:19.972) and you feel like a healthcare provider for me mixed with that construction knowledge almost. It's fascinating. I mean, it must be really like, as I keep saying, it must be hard. On the other side of it. Philip (32:25.762) Yeah, this is what we do. Philip (32:31.616) It's hard but it's really, we're so rewarding to do that. Aaron Ng (32:34.456) I think that's it. That looks like it drives you. know, it feels like, like all the things you said, and when I said in the middle of this podcast, I think I said was, I think this must be one of the hardest building businesses to run. No doubt. Look at the, you know, the clients are there watching you. No one really loves that. don't like if I'm tapping my laptop. I don't love people looking over my shoulder. I got just the job done. I'm not having a shot at any clients or anything either. You know, and then you've got the OT. Philip (32:53.666) Yeah, I would. Yeah. No, no, no. And I usually had back in my day, we wouldn't have done it like that, you know. Aaron Ng (33:06.648) Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, you've got that, you've got that coming up every two minutes or maybe you don't, but you know what I mean. I'm very complex. Philip (33:14.125) Yeah, yeah, no, you do, you do. Why are you using that? You should have used, yeah, why are you using, aren't you using copper for your pipes? You should use copper. You're using some plastic. I don't want plastic. That's what this... Yeah, exactly. Aaron Ng (33:21.525) wow. Aaron Ng (33:26.244) Do they know the price of Oh no. Mate, this is so fascinating. Now, the other thing I think is, is must be really hard or something you're going to be very wary about operating in this space is the compliance and standards. talked to, you're talking a little bit about that. You know, what do you actually need to operate effectively in this market or legally actually in this market? Philip (33:54.68) So you have to be registered with the NDS and you have to be a registered builder. So if you've got those two things, that's then theoretically you can start, but then you have to meet the criteria of the providers. So the healthcare providers that the individuals have packages with. Aaron Ng (33:56.716) Yeah, yeah, you didn't mention it yet. Okay. Yep. Philip (34:16.238) that provide their day-to-day services. It's normally managed by various companies. So you have to have a relationship with those companies because they have their own standards as well. Because they have a case manager for each client. And then that case manager is them referring to the OT. Aaron Ng (34:21.838) Yeah. Aaron Ng (34:26.497) Yeah, okay. Aaron Ng (34:31.278) Yep. Aaron Ng (34:38.585) Yep. Philip (34:38.712) They'll say, Mrs. Smith, she's got some issues. I can see she's got issues. I need to get an OT in to assess how we can make her life better. And then the OT will hopefully get me to go with them. And then we'll do an assessment together. Sometimes it doesn't. And then that, because I've got a relationship with the OT and I've also got a relationship with the home care provider. Aaron Ng (34:49.475) Yeah. Philip (35:08.75) They're comfortable with what I'm doing, what you're providing. If you don't have that relationship, you're pushing it uphill. Okay, because they have to trust that you're capable of doing the job and that you're capable of looking after their interests and the client's interests. yeah, see first step is yeah, tick the boxes with your NDS and your registration, but then start building, reaching out and building networks. Aaron Ng (35:15.746) Yeah, okay. Aaron Ng (35:27.48) Yeah. Yeah. You know what? Philip (35:38.978) that can facilitate because without that, you're just knocking on doors. Aaron Ng (35:44.3) I probably shouldn't say this, but I think I'm gonna add another credential to that, Mate, I think the other credential is trust. Like, honestly, mate, everything you're saying, like, this is one of the most trusted industries, or what you're doing, this sector. You've got OTs that need to trust you. You've got care providers that need to trust you. You've got the client that needs to trust you at a very vulnerable place in their life in a very diff, you know, sometimes, Philip (35:48.718) Yes, absolutely. Philip (36:10.124) Yeah. Aaron Ng (36:12.726) Sounds like a difficult situation. They're going through things. need to change their home so they can live better because of maybe ailments or whatever it may be. Mate, I'm going to add that third experiential. Yeah. Philip (36:22.382) Sometimes they're not allowed back in their house. They'll have a medical condition and they won't be allowed back in their house unless it's accessible in anyway. So if you haven't got that trust, that ability to provide that, know, they're stuck in hospital, they're stuck in a care facility. It's... Aaron Ng (36:34.531) Okay. Aaron Ng (36:40.996) Mm. Aaron Ng (36:46.297) Yep. Philip (36:48.686) Sonia, had a client the other week and the husband had a medical episode, is in hospital, now has accessibility problems. They won't let him home where his wife is because there's stairs and he can't get in. So they feel it's unsafe. So he's been put in like a respite center until the home is in a condition that... Aaron Ng (37:11.884) my- Philip (37:16.302) He can You the OTs and the case workers feel that he can operate in Meanwhile his wife is at home. Why did he waiting for him to? Yeah, come home So this is this is the Yeah, yeah, these people are together like amazing just plays my mind Aaron Ng (37:22.839) Top right. Aaron Ng (37:31.244) and imagine the years they spent together. You know what I mean? It's just incredible. Yeah, that's what I want to be when I grow up. That's why I think it touches me so much because I actually want to be that when I grow up. I want to be with my wife and I want to be there, you know, enjoying my home and my life. I think that's wonderful what you do. Philip (37:46.614) Yeah. Philip (37:50.062) Oh yeah, it's amazing to hear they've been together 50, 60 years and they talk about art and just think, wow, that is amazing. Aaron Ng (37:57.282) Yeah, what you do at the end of it, is so, as I said, honorable, so cool. I have a question for you, which is off the sort of script that I sent over to you, How come you didn't become a traditional builder? Or how come you didn't work in one? I just think it's interesting because I reckon, sorry, mate, I am a little bit emotional, I don't know why. But I just love what you do, man. I just think it's wonderful. I think that... Philip (38:08.206) Yep. Philip (38:11.746) Where's the fun in that? Aaron Ng (38:26.37) You know, just, you know, if you, if you held like all these things that you've talked about, I can see the business that you are. We've had a good chat, mate. If you did exactly this stuff in the traditional, builder space, I reckon you'd be Australia's best builder, man. You know, the trust, the way you listen to clients is everything we preach here at the good builder. I'm like, actually it's not. You go beyond what we preach here at the good builder. Philip (38:42.124) Yeah, Philip (38:48.322) Yes. Aaron Ng (38:53.634) I've got to say you're the first guest that's come on and you go beyond what we preach here at The Good Builder. Maybe it's because of the model that you operate, but still, mate, I love it. I freaking love it. Philip (38:54.638) but Philip (39:03.352) But if you have that mindset, yeah, you'd be a brilliant builder in whatever field you chose. That would be great. So, but we just showed this field. For me, I find it really valuable, very satisfying. And if I applied that, you know, we've done, I've done general building and that sort of thing, but there's not the same sense of pride and not the same sense of achievement. Aaron Ng (39:08.866) Yeah, which you are. Yeah. Aaron Ng (39:32.196) Cool. Philip (39:32.622) You're in, you've done the job, you move out, move on. That's... Yeah. Yeah. Aaron Ng (39:37.624) There's a bit of why there's a bit of a why, you know what I mean? Behind what do you actually seems like vital ease and you in your team and yourself and everyone in there just they do it because they love it. They do it because of the the end result and not what for you guys more for the client and result. Philip (39:56.172) Yeah, as I said, it's not for everybody and we understand that and not everyone can but we push our guys. This is important if they value like we do, the client and their ability to operate in their homes and that then you're part of the team. If not, see you later. Aaron Ng (40:00.248) Yeah. Aaron Ng (40:16.738) Love it, mate. It's fascinating. Speaking of that, actually, building in your sector, what separates the good operators like Rodelies versus maybe some of the others who aren't? What are you seeing? We've kind of talked a little bit about it, but yeah. Philip (40:35.598) Yeah, it really is that relationship is that it's not just I'm putting in a product and I'm out. They need to understand why they're doing it and looking at the big picture, not just looking at, you know, I'm building a brick wall, I'm out. There's a reason why you're doing that. yeah, so that's why it's harder to find good builders. Aaron Ng (40:40.952) Got the key. Aaron Ng (40:50.403) Yeah. Aaron Ng (41:02.776) Yeah. Philip (41:05.121) They just want to do the basic bits and finish. Yeah. Which is, yeah. Okay. I understand not everyone can see that. But that's what makes the difference between the people that are really good in the industry and those that are just doing it to make a quick buck. They don't. I often get the OTs will say, what do you think of the ramp that was putting, what do you think of this was done? Aaron Ng (41:08.259) Yeah. Aaron Ng (41:22.52) Yeah, yeah, I agree. Philip (41:35.278) because another company was there. And, you know, I'll be honest with you, yeah, okay, it works. Maybe it's got some issues, but it works. How does the client feel about it? That's the more important thing, you know? Aaron Ng (41:35.875) Wow. Aaron Ng (41:49.89) Yeah, well, that isn't that simple question is such a powerful thing, though, you know, if more people thought like that, I don't myself either. I'm being a total hypocrite here. Excuse me, if we thought more like that, you know, there's your answers. And to me, this whole podcast, that's what it seems what you're all about. And what bodily is all about, you know, Philip (41:55.479) Yeah. Aaron Ng (42:15.832) what ultimately is best for the client and how do they feel about it and what's going to give them the best result, is thoroughly amazing. Philip (42:20.099) Yeah. Philip (42:23.746) Which is why, when we started off, why we reached out is because the people operate in this industry, they need to have that caring mentality. They need to have that, I want to build a relationship mentality because we're dealing with vulnerable people here. We're dealing with people that have done some amazing things to contribute to our community. And they're coming to the twilight of their life. Aaron Ng (42:39.864) Yeah. Yeah. Aaron Ng (42:48.132) Mm. Philip (42:53.326) you know, they're valuable. So we should treat that value with respect. Aaron Ng (42:55.938) Yeah. Yeah, no, I love it. I love it, mate. think you should, I think very much so in your sector, but in every sector, think we just need to, in society, just treat people with respect and we'll just be better. You know, just listen to me. I understand you, mate. I'm going off. I know, I'm going off on another tangent, mate. But I had another couple of odd questions for you. Have you ever had a client invite you back over after you've finished a building? Philip (43:11.446) Yeah, that's right. You think of how hot is that? Philip (43:26.882) yes, yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, quite often, yeah. They will invite you back and want you to, yeah, yeah, drop in for a cuppa. Yeah, that's really good. They just want to chat, you know, fine, that's good. As I said, you know, our guys, if the client wants to chat, you know. Aaron Ng (43:28.418) All the time. Aaron Ng (43:32.557) Where? Aaron Ng (43:43.992) Yeah. Well. Aaron Ng (43:50.914) Yeah. Yeah. And the other thing is actually, where do you, where do you guys operate? What's your area? So you, you, you may all like, yeah, okay. Fantastic. Philip (44:00.408) So at the moment we operate all over Victoria, mainly the Melbourne and CBD. But we do rural as well. And we're just growing for crazy. we're reaching out and we did a little bit in New South Wales and Adelaide. it's my hours biggest issue is trying to find quality builders. Aaron Ng (44:07.683) Yeah. Aaron Ng (44:16.726) wow. Philip (44:28.75) holy trades people to do to work for us. So we're constantly growing and searching for them and yeah. Aaron Ng (44:29.057) Well... Aaron Ng (44:37.56) but the words, you're not still broke. Aaron Ng (44:43.244) I think that's a testament to to bodily sound. You know, not short on work. Mate, you're expanding. You ever coming up to Queensland? wow. Are you ever coming up to Queensland? mate, there's a massive aging population up here. And I think I started with, yeah, I actually, I know a builder up here that did Philip (44:52.302) Definitely not sure I worked. Hopefully, yes. Yeah. Aaron Ng (45:12.13) did actually did a retirement village and I'd gone there. Funnily enough, I was I did it at a charity and I went in last, not charity, but just you got to give back. Right. And so last Christmas, I went to their Christmas party and took professional photos for them, Philip, just because I just wanted to. And yeah, they were. Philip (45:23.841) Yeah, absolutely. Philip (45:29.48) cool. Aaron Ng (45:34.02) we were talking about the construction and things like that and they were there were different things that they would have like done in a different manner so that's why i was asking you were you going to come up here mate oh that was interesting great great retirement village lovely people amazing looks amazing but yeah um yeah there's a there's a gap up here in Queensland Philip (45:40.94) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. Philip (45:51.754) It's funny, the number of retirement villages that we go to and to make the houses more accessible. And we're going, so Mrs. Smith down at number 47, she got a ramp put in and we thought that would be good. we go, yeah, we also did Mr. Jones and we did that. You'll be able to find us. know, and there was, yeah, we can find you. been there before. Yeah, yeah. And they all talk amongst themselves. Aaron Ng (45:58.307) Yeah. Aaron Ng (46:08.727) It's hot. Aaron Ng (46:14.988) Wow, you end up knowing the whole neighborhood and that's pretty it's cool. yeah, man, it must be so fulfilling. Well, mate, I've only got one more question for you, Philip, mate. This has been a really fascinating podcast. I'm gonna have you back on before the pod actually said to Philip Wolf. I kind of thought he was going to, well, I didn't think, but I was wondering, he going to come in here? Well, we're going to ask Philip and his team back on and I would love them in the studio to talk a bit further. But today we're just giving you a bit of an introduction to this sector because I don't think a lot of you guys out there know about it, but mate, in your eyes. And I think this is going to be interesting, this answer. Sorry to put the pressure on you. What do you think makes a good builder, Philip (46:46.2) Sounds good. Philip (46:59.244) A good builder is one that's aware of their environment, aware of the people they're dealing with, and takes pride in what they're doing. And pride doesn't mean just about how good the job physically is, but how they present themselves to those they're doing the job for and those around them. That's a good builder. Aaron Ng (47:09.923) Where? Aaron Ng (47:23.852) I love it. You I agree with everything. I love the answer. I think it is nice, short, sharp and simple. And I totally agree. One thing that no one's ever said on this podcast that you said, you know this Philip and it's been a key thing through your whole pod. is 290 podcasts now. Not one builder has said, be aware of the customer you're building for. Philip (47:37.398) Yeah? Philip (47:45.998) They're the ones that pay the bills. Make them happy. Aaron Ng (47:50.638) Pretty fascinating, isn't it though? yeah, and you know, I know, and I'm not trying to take away any light from you and what you do, but you know, you're in a sector where, well, you don't have to because it's obvious through some of the cowboys and enter it. But ideally you got to get to know your customer and know their problem and things like that. So it was kind of like, Hey, you know, this is in your sector. That's what we do. I think in every other sector, if we did that again, as I said, during the podcast, we'd have a much better industry for it. And mate, you know, I can't thank you enough for sharing all the insights you did today. So that was absolutely fascinating, mate. because, Oh yeah, you brought me to tears, mate, talking about the emotional. Philip (48:34.232) Great, thanks for opportunity. You Aaron Ng (48:40.324) journey of actually doing a project for them and what it means. And I think you talked about a lot of stuff that we've never talked about on this podcast, how to treat a client, how to run a business in that sector. And yeah, truly fascinating. Would love to have you back on, mate. Awesome. Thank you, Philip (48:56.994) Look forward to it. Thanks.