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The Evolutionary Superpower of Highly Sensitive People: How HSP Differs from Autism (and Does it Matter?) · The Virtual Couch

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Music.
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Hey, everybody, welcome to a Virtual Couch Network Presents episode.
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So today we are going to explore the world of the highly sensitive person,
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or am I talking about somebody who's on the autism spectrum?
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Spoiler alert, I'm not, but thanks to a video that, for lack of a better word,
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went viral a couple of weeks ago, it's clear that there are a lot of people
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who identified with and felt seen by and understood by the information that
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they learned about highly sensitive people.
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And this was just in the span of a one-minute reel. We're talking over 2.2 million
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views of The Real on Instagram and 1.8 million views of The Real on TikTok and
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529 views of the exact same video on YouTube Shorts.
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But I'm not bitter about that. Maybe that's an episode for another day. But back to the story.
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So for those who really enjoy data or behind the scenes stuff, this is for you.
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Because I personally love when podcasters or back in my day,
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when people on the radio share the insider info of how many listeners or how
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many viewers, or when they would just share anything that I had no idea about
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that was going on behind the scenes.
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On TikTok, at the time of this recording, which is early morning, Monday, February 10th,
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this particular reel on highly sensitive people has 1,758,447 views with 182,000
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likes and 1,352 comments, 20,000 shares and 38,000 bookmarks.
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And on Instagram, this reel on
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highly sensitive people at the time of the recording had 2,182,337 views.
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And it also had 129,131 likes, 41,401 saves, and 40,616 shares.
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And I honest to goodness thank every single one of you who watched and liked and saved or shared it.
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And it also has 708 comments. While the majority are from people that do feel
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seen and understood, a number of them simply just say things like.
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What you're talking about is autism. Let's just move on. Or when are people
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going to recognize that this is just presenting autism?
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And as I was literally going to record, and I wanted to gather the latest stats
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for what I just shared with you, there was even a comment from somebody who
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was saying that apparently I have a problem with ADHD and autism,
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which is, well, it's adorable.
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Because, and I know that most people who are finding me from the real haven't
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listened to the 600 plus podcasts, or maybe the hundreds of hours of live content
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to know that I am a card carrying, riddle in taking.
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ADHD is my superpower. Diagnosed late in life. Thank goodness.
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Can I get a hallelujah and an amen?
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And when I had autism expert Jodi Carlton on my Waking Up the Narcissism podcast
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not too long ago to talk about the similarities in autism and narcissism and
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how they present in relationships, she mentioned that some consider ADHD to
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be on the autism spectrum.
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And I said right in that moment that if that is the case, sign me up,
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because why on earth would I want anything other than as much information as
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I can gather to help me understand myself better?
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Because this is most likely the first and only time that I'm inhabiting space
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on this amazing, wonderful planet we call Earth, and I want to learn it all.
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I want to experience it all.
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And speaking of experiences, hopefully this is the only time that you can see this,
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but if you tune into the YouTube channel or hopefully watch some clips from this episode,
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you will see a butterfly bandage that is
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holding my upper right cheek together thanks to a
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run-in unfortunately literally with a wall in
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a darkened movie theater yesterday i had my bell rung much
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to the laughter and enjoyment of my wife and daughter mackie who watched the
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whole thing it was all funny it was fun and laughs until wendy then asked me
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what's on your cheek and uh i did in a movie theater a classic movie line or
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a classic movie move where i reached up and all of a sudden my hand was covered
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in a lot of blood, but don't worry. I stayed.
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I was very brave. I watched the entire movie and I was still able to enjoy an
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insane amount of movie theater popcorn. But back to my point.
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So to those people who engaged in what I would call drive-by commenting,
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I did adopt a bit of a copy and paste response, which is what led to today's episode.
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I would highly encourage you to listen until the end because I have more data
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and examples than I ever would have imagined to share with you today.
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You'll definitely understand more than you ever could have dreamed about highly
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sensitive people, HSP, and people who have been diagnosed on the autism spectrum
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or ASD, autism spectrum disorder.
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And then we'll have a guest appearance by our good friend NPD,
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as in narcissistic personality disorder.
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But here's what I wrote to those who quickly dismissed those who were clearly feeling seen.
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I said, it's just far too easy for somebody to simply say HSP and ASD are one in the same.
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So here's what I'll share to every comment that says they are.
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I appreciate you taking the time to watch this reel and comment.
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I have an episode coming out later this week, which is today.
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There are so many differences, but many people who perhaps aren't highly sensitive
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or HSP can easily put them in the same bucket and then move on.
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And it's definitely easier to do that than to try and understand the differences,
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to lean into what someone doesn't know that they don't know. So stay tuned.
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We'll find out that there are overlapping traits, and that's wonderful.
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None of the content that I create is ever meant to be from a place of judgment,
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but more from a place of awareness. I'm a huge, huge fan of learning what we
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don't know that we didn't even know because that's the way we grow.
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And one of the strongest signs of emotional immaturity is isolating,
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turning more inward and just living in this confirmation biased,
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I know everything bubble that then is just easily able to dismiss people who
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have different viewpoints than them.
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But we're the only versions of us walking around the face of the earth,
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you, me, even the people that are doing the drive-by comments.
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And so they know what it feels like to be them.
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So it takes a lot of work to step outside of your own ego, your own sense of
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self, and truly try to understand what someone else's experience is.
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And when you can at least give that a good attempt, often you will learn something
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about that person and you might even learn something about yourself as well.
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So with that said, let's get to today's show. And actually, of course,
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before we do that, please follow me on Instagram at virtual.couch,
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tiktok at virtual couch, all one word.
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And even if half of the 2 million of you who watch the reel on Instagram could
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just go click a little subscribe button, give me some love on YouTube.
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Links will be in the show notes. That would be mighty appreciated.
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And then make sure to look for the live question and answers typically on Sunday
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evenings on Instagram and TikTok.
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We did one last night with my daughter, Mackie. My daughter,
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Sydney was behind the scenes and definitely commenting as well and moderating the comments.
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We had so many questions, so many comments on both Instagram and TikTok,
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but we spent a lot of time in the world of emotional immaturity.
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We did touch on some HSP content as well, but emotional immaturity in relationships,
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there is so much to be learned there.
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The replay of that live last night will be on YouTube in the next couple of days. So look for that.
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And you can also send me your questions ahead of time via the contact form on
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my website at TonyOverbay.com.
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While you're there, I signed up for the newsletter. Okay, let's do this.
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So it's story time. And there's a lot of data that you can mine from this story.
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And it's based loosely on a real story that was brought into my office.
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So if you can picture this, let's say it's a Wednesday afternoon and it's a
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busy marketing agency and you've got Sarah and Michael, they're standing in the break room.
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They're having what started out is what looked like a very quick conversation
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about an upcoming project.
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Now, Sarah has been diagnosed with an autism spectrum disorder,
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or ASD, and she's very aware of it, but other than listening to a podcast or
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two on occasion, she doesn't necessarily do a lot of work on herself about her autism. No judgment.
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Facts, as the kids say. Now, on that note, the prevalence of ASD has changed
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dramatically over the past couple of decades.
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According to the CDC data, what was once identified in about 1 in 150 children
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in the year 2000 has steadily increased to about 1 in 36 people today.
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And that significant shift isn't necessarily just because more people are developing
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autism, but it's more about the move to a broader diagnostic criteria,
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better recognition of symptoms, and an increased awareness of it,
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that people are willing to talk about their own mental health challenges.
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And then also it comes with an increased access to diagnostic services,
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especially for groups that were maybe historically overlooked, like girls and adults.
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So on this particular afternoon, she was excited to share her insights about
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the research that she had been doing now. Let's talk about Michael.
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Michael identifies as a highly sensitive person, or HSP, which turns out to
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be way more common than most people think.
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Back in the 1990s, Elaine Aron and some additional researchers first started
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looking into this trait seriously and found something very fascinating,
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that about 15% to 20% of people are just wired to experience the world more intensely.
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And what's fascinating is that it's not just in humans.
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Scientists have spotted the same trait in all sorts of species,
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from dogs to fish, birds.
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I even read, I think, fruit flies, which that would be adorable to just have
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the most sensitive little fruit fly hanging around.
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So what this suggests is it's actually a natural and a valuable variation that's
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been preserved throughout evolution.
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So being highly sensitive isn't a disorder or something that needs fixing.
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It just means that Michael's brain processes things more deeply,
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feeling both the good and the challenging stuff more intensely than others might.
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It's kind of like he's got a more finely tuned antenna for picking up on everything
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from physical sensations to just emotional undercurrents in the room or vibes or energy.
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And on this particular afternoon with Sarah, Michael's overly aware of both
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the ticking clock, the subtle shifts in energy around the two of them,
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as well as others who are walking by their facial expressions,
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wondering what they might be thinking.
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At one point, he sees one coworker look at Sarah and then look over at Michael
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and then look over at the office gossip, Jane. And Michael immediately makes a mental note.
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Okay, Jane, no doubt is going to be starting rumors that Sarah has a thing for Michael.
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And Michael also knows that there's a staff meeting coming up in just a little bit.
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And he's aware that his boss typically engages in what he calls MBWA,
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or management by walking around prior to a big meeting.
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And actually, if Michael is being completely honest, which here's the part based
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on a true story, he knows that his boss is actually doing said MBWA,
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management by walking around, on his way to take a BM prior to the meeting.
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And if the boss sees them, he knows that the boss will assume that Michael's
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wasting time because Michael still finds himself reeling from an unflattering
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review that he and his marketing team had from that very boss years ago during
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a particularly bad time in the economy.
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And all of this is while Sarah continues to talk at Michael while they're in the break room.
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So the conversation has been going on for 15 minutes, which is about 14 minutes
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longer than Michael would like.
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When Michael notices another colleague, Elena, glancing at her watch as she walks past.
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So again, Michael can sense the afternoon meetings are about to begin.
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He starts to feel this building tension in the office as others are hurrying
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to wrap up their lunch breaks.
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And then Michael shifts his weight slightly, kind of takes a small step back and gently says.
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I should probably let you get back to work. And it's in this moment that two
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very different experiences are unfolding.
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Michael can feel the slight strain in his voice as he tries to end the conversation politely.
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And he notices how Sarah is still leaning forward slightly, and her enthusiasm is unchanged.
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And he can sense that she has not picked up on his cues.
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His heightened sensitivity allows him to feel the mild anxiety that's building
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in him and in the situation in general, as he realizes this exit from talking
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to Sarah is probably not going to be as smooth as he had hoped.
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Now, Sarah, she's deeply engaged and still explaining her research findings.
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And she processes Michael's words at face value.
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So remember, Michael said, oh, I probably ought to let you get back to work.
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So Sarah hears that and then says, oh, I don't actually need to get back to
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work right now because Sarah's team is not part of this meeting.
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So she is happy to stay engaged and continue to talk about this project.
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And then continuing on her train of thought, Sarah said, you know,
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I haven't even told you about the coolest part of this whole thing.
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This data that I found that was completely by surprise.
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And she's genuinely enjoying sharing her insights. She's no reason to stop.
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After all, Michael didn't say he needed to leave.
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He just said that he thought she might need to get back to work.
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So more minutes tick by, and Michael becomes increasingly aware of the growing disconnect.
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And he notices the tension in his shoulders, and he picks up on the quickening
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footsteps in the hallway. And he can sense the slight edge of frustration in his own breathing.
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Meanwhile, Sarah continues sharing her thoughts, completely missing all of these
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subtle signs of Michael's discomfort, his slight step backward,
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his crossed arms, his shorter responses, his looking away from her.
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As a matter of fact, Michael notices that he's almost moved back entirely against
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the break room counter, and Sarah has matched him step for step,
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becoming closer and closer as they talk, making things even more awkward for him.
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So this single interaction, I think, perfectly illustrates how different social
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cues are experienced and processed by people with autism, ASD,
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versus highly sensitive people, HSP.
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And while both Sarah and Michael are intelligent, caring individuals,
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they're essentially speaking different social languages.
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Michael is reading a complex web of nonverbal cues like a finely tuned instrument,
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while Sarah is focusing on the literal meaning of the words that they're exchanging.
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And it's a seemingly simple interaction, an attempt to end a conversation,
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that demonstrates why it's, I think, crucial to understand these differences.
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And if you are a HSP, to accept them.
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And then once you accept them, what do you do with them? And if you're someone
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who has ASD, then are you aware of these things?
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And I'll talk more about this later because I've worked with a number of people
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who have been the Sarahs who have come in and said, okay, there are things that
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I must not know that I don't know.
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And it's not about one being right and one being wrong. It's about recognizing
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that our brains can process social information in fundamentally different ways.
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That's absolutely okay.
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What I didn't mention, and maybe this is just simply so I can also run this
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one on my Waking Up the Narcissism podcast, of course.
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Actually, as I introduced this emotionally immature and narcissistic character
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that is very real, it's actually because so many people in relationships with
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narcissistic or emotionally immature people are the highly sensitive people.
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And I'm sure we'll talk about that later in this episode as well.
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So what I did not share is that right in the middle of this delicate social
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dance between Sarah and Michael, their self-appointed top sales guy,
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David, sweeps into the break room with his signature, I am the most important person here, energy.
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He's carrying his perpetually empty coffee mug, the one that says world's best
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dad, which is written in gold letters, which he basically made his wife buy for him.
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And without missing a beat, he inserts himself into their conversation by loudly
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declaring, oh, disgusting work, are you?
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Reminds me of how I single-handedly saved that Johnson account back in 2019,
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right before the pandemic, basically saved the company. Did I ever tell you guys about that?
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And actually, Sarah, your research approach reminds me of myself when I was
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starting out, though, of course, by the time that I was your age,
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I was already managing three departments.
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And he proceeds to then lean against the counter in what he clearly believes
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is a very, very charismatic pose, waiting for the validation,
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for people to just swoon over everything that he's talking about.
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But he's completely oblivious to the fact that Michael was desperately trying
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to escape Sarah and get to his meeting.
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And Sarah was in the middle of explaining her actual literal research findings.
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But David continues, gesturing dramatically with his coffee mug.
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You know, I was just talking to Steve.
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Dramatic pause. You guys know Steve, right? Okay, forgive my rudeness,
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Steve Thompson, founder, CEO of the company. I think you guys call him Mr. Thompson.
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I mean, Steve and I are on a very first name basis, but naturally,
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I was telling him that my leadership style really, I think is what is driving
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the innovation here. And he agreed.
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In fact, just this morning, I was thinking about your guys' little project while
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doing my morning meditation in my reserved parking spot.
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So ironically, the introduction of David adds a completely different type of
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misreading of all social cues in his very own unique way.
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Not because he's highly sensitive or autistic, but simply because he's so self-absorbed
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that he can't notice or care about them.
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And that is the siren song of the emotionally immature or the person on the
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narcissistic spectrum.
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But his presence creates a perfect storm of social complexity.
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You've got Michael, the HSP, now picking up on everybody's discomfort, feels trapped.
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Sarah, with autism, is trying to process why did the conversation suddenly shift
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to David's achievements? Because I was still in the middle of something.
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And David remains blissfully unaware of anything beyond his own internal monologue.
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Let's now transition over into what is HSP? What is ASD?
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And how are they different? How are they similar? And what's the challenge when
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they are interacting with people who don't understand what either of them are?
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So let me start by just clearing up a very fundamental misconception that I
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think has been floating around, especially in the social media comments again
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on these posts, that while HSP and ASD might look similar on the surface,
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particularly when it comes to how people process sensory information,
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they're actually quite distinct from each other.
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And again, that comes with no judgment. And there will be people,
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because both are a spectrum, that have some crossover.
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But you can kind of think of it like this, that just because two people might
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react strongly to bright lights or loud noises doesn't mean they're experiencing
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the same underlying condition.
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So if we go back to the beginning of HSP, Dr.
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Elaine Aron, who first began researching high sensitivity back in 1991,
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or the fancier name, sensory processing sensitivity, discovered something so
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fascinating that she found that being highly sensitive isn't a disorder at all.
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And that's because it's a natural trait that shows up in about 15 to 20% of the population.
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And what's so fascinating, as I mentioned earlier, this trait appears in over
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100 different species throughout nature.
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So this widespread presence suggests that being highly sensitive actually serves
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a very important evolutionary purpose.
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So for those who identify as highly sensitive, and this was definitely a theme
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in the comments of the videos, it may not actually feel like much of an advantage
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at times when you are completely overwhelmed.
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Especially when you feel stuck, when you feel so overwhelmed and you can't escape
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to maybe a dark room or somewhere where you can calm your central nervous system.
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So I just want to spend a few minutes talking about the evolutionary purpose of HSP.
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Because I think that this might give you, the HSP, the highly sensitive person,
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an understanding that your highly sensitive traits,
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the way that you feel and feel big and sense things that others may not, it truly can be a gift.
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So when we say that a trait serves an evolutionary purpose, what we mean is
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it provides some survival advantage to help their ancestors thrive and pass on their genes.
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Because if it wasn't something that was beneficial, then it would not have continued
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to be part of the evolutionary process.
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So if you look at the case of high sensitivity, I think that having some members
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of the population who are more attuned to subtle changes in the environment
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can benefit the entire group.
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Because you can think of it like having natural scouts or early warning systems
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within a population of people.
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HSPs tend to notice subtle changes. We're talking shifts in weather patterns,
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potential dangers, or social dynamics before others do.
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This hypervigilance when you see someone walk in the room and you can sense
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that that person maybe is having a problem with one of the other people in the room.
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Because in ancient times, this heightened awareness could help communities prepare
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for threats or opportunities that others might have missed until it was too late.
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So for example, an HSP might notice subtle changes in animal behavior suggesting
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an approaching storm, or they might pick up on tension in a neighboring group
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before it erupts into conflict.
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And this deeper processing of environmental cues could give their group time
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to prepare or adapt, increasing everybody's chances of survival.
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So the fact that we see this trade across species is what reinforces this theory
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that it is there for a reason.
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Consider wolves. Researchers have found that within wolf packs,
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some members show higher sensitivity to environmental changes.
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And these more sensitive wolves might be the first to notice approaching danger
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or identify new hunting opportunities.
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And they also might be the ones that don't enjoy ghost stories by the fire at
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night. But regardless, it's a trait that is there for survival.
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Eventually, those highly sensitive people become the shaman,
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the medicine people, the people that are the matchmakers where there are arranged marriages.
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It is a gift when it is nurtured.
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I go back to the numbers. Interestingly, the percentage of HSPs in populations,
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15 to 20%, if you're looking at it from an evolutionary biological perspective, seems to be optimal.
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Because if everybody was highly sensitive, then a group might be too cautious
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and miss out on opportunities.
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If no one were sensitive, the group might miss important warning signs and be
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wiped out and cease to exist.
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And this balance suggests what evolutionary biologists call differential susceptibility,
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different traits within a population that work together for the group's overall success.
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There will be people that will be more bold. There will be people that will
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be stronger, that will be able to endure, be able to run faster.
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There will be people that will have a keen brain for engineering and being able to create things.
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And there will be those that are highly sensitive that will be able to bring
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different things to the table within the group or the community.
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So let me give you some examples of traits or characteristics of the highly sensitive person.
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And for you non-HSPs, please hang tight because we're about to talk about what
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happens when you enter the picture.
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And I think it's so helpful as well to try and just step out of your own ego,
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non-HSPs, and think about the people in your life. If there are people that
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you have viewed as sensitive, people that you've told, don't worry about it, knock it off.
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It's not a big deal because I think this will speak more to what their experience is.
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So I went through Elaine Aron's self-test for HSPs, which you can find on hsperson.com.
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And I looked at all the questions and I was able to come up with five key indicators
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to watch for when you're trying to see if you are a highly sensitive person.
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So for somebody that is wondering if they might be highly sensitive,
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I recommend going and taking Elaine Aron's HSP test online.
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But this will just give you a better idea because you might just want to reflect
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on these key indicators.
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Do you need more time than others to process experiences and to make decisions.
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Are you particularly aware of subtle changes in your environment?
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Do you feel emotions, both your own and others, more intensely than most people around you seem to?
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And do you find yourself easily overwhelmed by sensory input?
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And it could be lights, it could be sounds, it could be textures,
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it could be anything that involves that sensory input.
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And do you have a rich inner life and you tend to think deeply about things?
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So let me walk you through how each one of these key indicators of high sensitivity
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might show up in everyday life.
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So that first one, needing more time to process experiences and make decisions.
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So imagine you're at a restaurant with friends, and while others can quickly
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scan the menu and decide, you find yourself just carefully considering each
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option over and over, thinking about your past experiences with similar dishes,
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contemplating how hungry you are, weighing a variety of factors like texture,
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flavor combinations, and your friends most likely tease you about being indecisive.
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But you're actually engaging in deeper processing.
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This same pattern might appear when shopping for major purchases where you research
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extensively and you consider multiple angles before making a choice,
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or maybe in meetings at work where you prefer to think through your response
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before speaking rather than immediately jumping into discussions.
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And as a card-carrying member again of the ADHD fan club, I know I tend to be
23:53
more impulsive because in my mind, I can make a decision and then there are
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plenty of decisions to be made afterward.
24:00
Now, I do like to do a fair amount of research, but sometimes that is just this
24:03
desire for certainty that I have.
24:05
But ultimately, I would consider myself far more impulsive than somebody who is highly sensitive.
24:10
So let's talk about that second key indicator, awareness of subtle environmental changes.
24:14
You most likely are the first person to notice when somebody has rearranged
24:18
the furniture slightly or changed their hairstyle.
24:20
I think about this so often of where I would get that wrong if I would come
24:26
home and my wife would maybe say, notice anything different?
24:29
And I am. I'm looking around the room. I'm looking at her.
24:32
And at work, you might pick up on subtle tension between co-workers before conflicts
24:35
become obvious to other people.
24:38
You might also notice small changes in your partner's behavior that signal that
24:41
they're stressed even before they realize it themselves.
24:44
Think of somebody who immediately notices when the heating system kicks on in
24:48
a building or who can tell that it's about to rain because they notice subtle
24:51
changes in air pressure or again, even animal behavior.
24:54
The third indicator, feeling emotions more intensely.
24:59
This is the one that I realized the more I learned about highly sensitive people,
25:04
that I know that while I know how I feel about things, I'm very certain that
25:09
I don't feel as deeply as my wife or a couple of my daughters.
25:14
So feeling emotions more intensely. This might manifest as crying easily during
25:18
movies that others find only mildly touching or feeling physically drained after
25:22
spending time with somebody who's going through a difficult period.
25:24
And you might find yourself deeply affected by news stories that others just
25:28
scroll past or you might need time to decompress after emotional conversations.
25:32
At work, if you receive criticism, even if it's constructive,
25:35
it might require some private time to process before you can respond effectively.
25:39
And you might also find yourself feeling genuinely elated by very small positive
25:44
experiences that other people barely notice, like a beautiful sunset or a kind
25:48
gesture from a stranger.
25:49
I think of how many times that my wife would look out the window and say,
25:53
look at that sunset, and I did.
25:55
Okay, now let's move on, right? and not being able to really just sit and appreciate
26:00
that and understand what that must feel like for her versus me.
26:04
Here's the interesting one, the fourth one, easily overwhelmed by sensory input.
26:08
So in very practical terms, I think this might look like needing to leave a
26:12
grocery store sooner than others because the fluorescent lights are just too
26:16
bright or the background music is just driving you crazy.
26:18
Announcements, multiple conversations become overwhelming. You might have strong
26:22
preferences about clothing textures, removing tags or avoiding certain fabrics entirely.
26:27
And in open office spaces, you might struggle to concentrate because you're
26:30
aware of every conversation and keyboard click and movement around you.
26:34
And you might also find that you need to retreat to a quiet space after social
26:37
gatherings that others might find energizing.
26:40
One more, having a rich and inner life and thinking deeply.
26:44
This often shows up as the person who just ponders the deeper meaning behind everyday situations.
26:49
For instance, a casual comment from a friend might lead you down a path of reflecting
26:52
on the nature of the friendship itself.
26:54
And you might find yourself lying awake at night thinking about conversations
26:57
from earlier in the day and analyzing them from multiple angles.
27:00
I know in talking to a lot of highly sensitive people, they don't want to say
27:05
the wrong thing and they want somebody to truly understand them.
27:08
So often they will try to explain things from every single vantage point, every angle.
27:13
And the person that they're speaking with most likely has already said,
27:16
no, I understand. I get it.
27:17
But to the highly sensitive person, they're still just so worried about being
27:20
misunderstood or misrepresented. Okay.
27:23
At work, you might excel at projects that are requiring deep analysis,
27:26
but struggle with rapid fire brainstorming sessions because you prefer to think
27:30
things through and take your time before you make these big decisions.
27:34
And you might also find yourself drawn at times to complex books or films or
27:38
music that others find too heavy because you naturally seek depth in your experiences.
27:42
But again, it can come with being overwhelmed.
27:45
So the key thing, though, is to understand that these traits often interact with each other.
27:48
For example, your deep processing and emotional sensitivity might combine to
27:52
make you especially thoughtful in your relationships, while your environmental
27:56
awareness and sensory sensitivity might make you particularly skilled at creating comfortable,
28:01
harmonious spaces, wanting your home to be this oasis.
28:05
And these aren't weaknesses to overcome, but they're aspects of your personality
28:09
that can be both challenging and advantageous depending on the situation and
28:13
how you learn to work with them.
28:14
Because if you're a highly sensitive person and you're in a relationship with
28:17
someone, let's say who has some real fun ADHD, then you might be in a world
28:22
where you want more of the normal,
28:24
and that person might live a little bit more in the world of chaos.
28:28
So now, let's get back to where those characteristics can serve a purpose,
28:32
and let's bring the non-HSPs back into the mix, and then we'll move into the world of autism.
28:37
Back to how these indicators or these traits play out in modern contexts,
28:41
these same characteristics, they continue to serve very valuable purposes because
28:45
HSPs often excel at noticing subtle patterns in complex systems or anticipating
28:49
potential problems before they develop,
28:52
understanding the deeper emotional needs of others, or contributing really unique
28:56
perspectives in problem-solving situations, and then bringing depth and nuance
29:00
to very creative endeavors.
29:02
So when you look back through this evolutionary lens, I think it helps us understand
29:06
why high sensitivity isn't a disorder or a weakness, but it's a pretty vital
29:11
variation in the whole human experience that has helped our species survive
29:15
and thrive throughout history.
29:17
But this dynamic between HSPs, and we'll just call them the non-HSPs,
29:21
is a perfect example of what psychologists call an invisible disability.
29:25
It's a phenomenon. But I think in this case, we're talking about more of a trait
29:29
rather than a disability.
29:30
Let me explain why this can create a very challenging situation, is a nice way to put it.
29:35
Because when someone isn't highly sensitive, they experience the world through
29:38
their own neurological settings.
29:40
So their brain processes sensory and emotional information at what we might
29:44
call, let's just say a standard level of intensity. We won't say normal.
29:48
But for them, this is their normal. It's their only frame of reference.
29:52
It's like somebody who's never worn glasses, trying to understand what does
29:55
it look like to not have glasses.
29:57
And as somebody who didn't need glasses till I was in my late 40s,
30:00
I can feel this because I remember continually asking my wife,
30:04
what does it look like? What do you see?
30:06
And never really understanding what that would be like because I didn't know
30:10
what it was like to need glasses. So going back to that, think about that.
30:14
If you are someone who doesn't wear glasses, trying to understand what that
30:17
would look like, you can imagine it might be blurry.
30:20
But I will tell you as someone now who, when I take my glasses off,
30:23
things are, they're continually blurry.
30:26
It really is trying to understand what the world looks like to somebody who
30:29
needs them, who needs the glasses.
30:31
And I think this creates a fundamental disconnected understanding.
30:34
So when an HSP expresses concern about something that seems minor to a non-HSP,
30:38
the non-HSP makes what psychologists call a false consensus assumption because
30:44
they believe that everybody processes experiences the same way that they do.
30:47
So when they say things like, you're overreacting, or it's not that big of a
30:50
deal, they genuinely believe that they're being helpful, operating from their
30:54
own experiential framework. I know I've been guilty of that.
30:58
Where you want to tell your family, hey guys, don't worry about this.
31:01
Calm down. It's not a big deal. I literally just told them all their feelings are wrong.
31:06
And I think the tragedy in this dynamic lies in its self-reinforcing nature,
31:09
because here's how it typically plays out.
31:11
The HSP experiences something intense, whether it's emotional tension in a room,
31:16
overwhelming sensory input, or maybe a deep concern about just even a very subtle
31:20
problem that they've noticed.
31:22
They try to express it to the non-HSP, often the person that they're in a relationship
31:26
with, and they're already feeling vulnerable because they've learned through
31:30
experience that typically others don't always understand, or even want to take
31:34
the time to try and understand.
31:36
Then the non-HSP processing the same situation with far less intensity will
31:42
dismiss or maybe minimize the HSP's experience with phrases like,
31:46
well, you just need to toughen up or you're being too sensitive or calm down
31:50
or don't worry about it or don't think that way.
31:53
Then the HSP, who by nature processes emotions deeply, they absorb this dismissal.
31:59
And I think it can be really difficult because they internalize or they metabolize
32:03
not just the immediate rejection, but this deeper implication about their way of being in the world.
32:10
So then to protect themselves emotionally, the HSP begins to withdraw.
32:14
And over time, they share less and they start to make themselves small.
32:18
And they often doubt their own perceptions.
32:21
And then the non-HSP sees this withdrawal as improvement, confirmation that
32:27
their approach worked, that it does work when I tell everybody,
32:30
Don't worry about it or calm down because I'm not hearing about it as much.
32:33
When in reality, they just witnessed somebody building emotional walls,
32:37
watching their partner build the walls for self-protection.
32:41
And this cycle creates this emotional invalidation, which can have long-lasting
32:46
effects on HSPs and in the relationship.
32:50
Because then the HSP often develops a form of this learned helplessness about
32:55
sharing their experiences.
32:56
And that can start to lead to isolation, self-doubt, a loss of self.
33:00
So the cruel irony here is that the very depth of emotional processing that
33:06
makes HSPs valuable in evolutionary terms, it becomes a source of vulnerability in these interactions.
33:12
So the solution, though, is not for HSPs to toughen up, or even for non-HSPs to walk on eggshells.
33:19
Instead, it requires understanding and validating different ways of experiencing the world.
33:25
Just as we wouldn't tell somebody wearing glasses that they're trying too hard
33:28
to see clearly, we shouldn't dismiss an HSP's naturally more intense processing of their environment.
33:34
And I think this is why, hopefully episodes like today or reels that people
33:39
can identify with, maybe for the first time, this is why education about high
33:43
sensitivity I think is so crucial.
33:44
Because it helps both HSPs and hopefully you non-HSPs, including myself,
33:50
understand that there isn't just one right way to experience the world.
33:54
Different neurological templates create different equally valid ways of processing reality.
33:59
And I think it is so important to realize that no matter how certain you might
34:02
think you are about what somebody else is thinking or feeling or why they're
34:05
doing what they're doing, you cannot truly understand exactly what somebody
34:09
else is going through ever, which is why it's so important to be curious.
34:14
Write, write, be curious on your bathroom mirror, plaster it all over your wall,
34:18
your desk, write it every day on your palm.
34:20
Shout out to my old friend, Bruce Felt, who used to write down things literally
34:23
on his palm when I was using a device at the time.
34:26
If any of you remember these called a palm pilot. Maybe we need to get back
34:29
to that type of high tech, writing it down on our palm.
34:32
But it's okay not to know how somebody else feels or what they're thinking.
34:37
We resist curiosity so often because I think we want the validation of somebody
34:41
potentially saying, oh my gosh, you were right. I did need to just toughen up
34:45
or I didn't even think about calming down.
34:48
So thank you. You said words that do in fact make me feel so good.
34:52
But another big reason that we like to tell people how they are feeling or what
34:57
they are thinking is because if we need to ask them and they're thinking and
35:02
feeling things that we didn't know, A, we often revert back to our emotionally
35:06
immature, all or nothing, black or white thinking.
35:08
That if that person now is thinking something that I didn't realize they were
35:10
thinking, then I must be wrong and then they are right.
35:13
And now all of a sudden, we've got this black or white, all or nothing thinking.
35:17
Please scrub that from your mind right now. We're not talking about right and wrong.
35:21
We're talking about two people's sharing of their experiences that are unique
35:24
to them because they are the only version of them that have ever walked the face of the earth.
35:29
Each one of us is an amazing combination of our nature and our nurture,
35:34
our birth order, our DNA, our abandonment, our rejection, our hopes, our fears, our dreams.
35:38
And so even when you look at twin studies and the same twins,
35:42
the same people, these genetic similarities in their DNA witness the same thing,
35:48
their output is different.
35:50
So of course, our output is going to be different.
35:53
There are so many variables to people. There are people in the world who love
35:58
sardines. There are people who think that black licorice tastes good.
36:01
There are people who don't like pineapple on their pizza.
36:22
Let me just give you some facts that I think might blow your mind.
36:24
Because people are so different. There are people in the world who love sardines.
36:30
There are people who think that black licorice tastes good. There are people
36:33
who don't like pineapple on their pizza. There are people who like blue cheese crumbles.
36:38
There are people who enjoy swallowing oysters or eating snails or pate.
36:42
There are people who enjoy haunted houses or who don't enjoy speaking to crowds
36:46
or who don't like running.
36:48
And so there you go. I think maybe you know me better now than ever before.
36:52
But we are all unique in so many ways. So, of course, you aren't going to know
36:55
exactly what somebody is thinking or feeling. So, ask them.
36:59
And you're not wrong if you thought something else. And number two.
37:04
If we have to ask somebody how they are feeling about something,
37:06
we might find out that we could have even played a role in their discomfort
37:10
or their dissatisfaction or their disappointment.
37:13
And guess what? That too is absolutely okay because go back to point A,
37:18
everybody is different and are allowed to think and feel differently.
37:22
So for all you non-HSPs, and I consider myself somewhere on the spectrum of
37:26
some increased sensitivity, but I know for a fact I'm not as highly sensitive
37:30
as my wife or a couple of my daughters in particular.
37:33
I've been married now for 34 years and I have to watch Animal Planet on my own.
37:38
It's like I'm watching a dirty movie or like I'm exploring the dark corners
37:41
of the internet when I get in my office and I pull up Earth at Night in Color on Apple TV.
37:46
And you're welcome after you go check that out. What an incredible show.
37:49
They use these phenomenal cameras to make night on the African tundra look like
37:53
it is the middle of the day.
37:55
And I want to show that. I show it to my two daughters, so I think they're more highly sensitive.
37:59
And I'm showing them. and all of a sudden some cheetah takes down a wildebeest
38:03
or something and we're turning the channel.
38:05
And then it will be another 10 to 20 years before I will attempt that again.
38:09
Neither of us are wrong. And it doesn't mean that somebody doesn't care about
38:12
you if they don't want to watch what you want to watch or if they don't want
38:14
to see beneath your band-aid at how you cut your cheek in half running into
38:19
a wall at a movie theater.
38:21
Although she kind of did enjoy seeing that.
38:24
But when we talk about highly sensitive people, we're describing be individuals
38:27
whose brains process information more deeply than others, and it's a gift to
38:30
have a more sophisticated internal processing system.
38:33
These people notice subtleties that others might not, and this can lead to feeling overwhelmed.
38:38
But that's because an HSP literally is taking in more information from their
38:42
environment than the average person.
38:44
And before we move on to ASD, or Autism Spectrum Disorder, I think there's also
38:48
a crucial point that I didn't understand for a long time.
38:50
Dr. Aaron emphasizes the trait isn't a new discovery, it's just that it's been
38:54
misunderstood for a long time.
38:55
So, people often confuse highly sensitive people with being shy or with being introverted.
39:00
But here's the part I never really understood, is about 30% of highly sensitive
39:04
people are actually extroverts.
39:05
The key difference is that as an HSP, they might put themselves out there,
39:11
but even as they are extrovert, they still are observing and processing before acting.
39:17
Again, regardless of whether they're introverted or extroverted.
39:20
So now, And thanks for sticking with me. Let's explore autism spectrum disorder.
39:24
And then we'll break down the key differences between these two very distinct
39:28
ways of experiencing the world.
39:30
Because I think when we can truly understand the differences,
39:32
then we can better support and appreciate and love our HSPs and our individuals
39:36
with ASD for exactly who they are.
39:38
And a lot of you might learn something new about yourself.
39:42
I am not an expert in autism spectrum disorder. So...
39:47
Much of this information was gathered
39:49
from the internet using as many evidence-based resources as I can.
39:54
And also anecdotal data, because I've been a therapist now for over 20 years,
39:58
and I have worked with very high functioning people with autism who come to
40:02
my office saying, this is what I have.
40:04
I don't know what I don't know and help me show up differently.
40:07
Autism spectrum disorder or ASD is a neurodevelopmental condition that affects
40:11
how a person perceives and interacts with the world around them.
40:14
And as I discussed in the opening today, the CDC data shows that about one in
40:18
36 people are diagnosed with ASD today, which is a significant increase from
40:22
previous decades due to better recognition and then understanding of the condition.
40:26
And the word spectrum, which is most often used in ASD, I think is crucial because
40:32
it acknowledges that autism presents differently in each person.
40:35
You can think of it like a mixing board in a recording studio where each person
40:39
has these different settings for various characteristics.
40:42
So some individuals might have more intense sensory experiences,
40:45
while others might face greater challenges with social communication and social interaction.
40:49
So here's where things get really interesting and where some of the confusion
40:52
between HSP and ASD arises.
40:55
That both groups might appear to react strongly to sensory input,
40:58
but the underlying mechanisms are quite different because in HSP,
41:02
the brain is taking in and deeply processing all the information,
41:05
including social and emotional cues,
41:08
like having a very sophisticated filter that catches and then just analyzes everything.
41:12
And in contrast, individuals with ASD often, again, we're leaving this open
41:16
to the spectrum of their experiences, but often experience sensory input differently,
41:21
not necessarily more deeply, but in a way that can be more difficult to integrate.
41:25
So it's less about deep processing and maybe more about how the brain organizes
41:29
and makes sense of the information that it receives.
41:31
And then this can lead to sensory overload, but through a whole different mechanism
41:35
than what HSPs experience.
41:37
And another key difference lies in social interaction, because HSPs are often
41:42
very highly attuned to others' emotional states, sometimes to an overwhelming degree.
41:46
They might pick up on subtle mood changes in a room and process them deeply.
41:50
People with ASD, on the other hand, might find it challenging to interpret social
41:54
cues or understand unspoken social rules, not because they're not processing
41:58
deeply, but because their brains are wired to perceive social information very differently.
42:03
So you can think of it this way, that an HSP might walk into a room and immediately
42:07
sense tension between two people, feeling overwhelmed by the emotional atmosphere.
42:10
A person with ASD might walk into that same room and feel overwhelmed by the
42:14
fluorescent lights, the texture of their clothing, or if there's loud music
42:18
and a lot of people talking, or the challenge of navigating the social expectations of the situation.
42:23
And I have a couple of guests coming on that I'll run this episode later this week.
42:28
Who are talking about a program that they are involved in that helps young adults with autism.
42:35
And they address this very specific part of ASD, where they talk about,
42:40
here's the way that you can interact. And they teach those skills.
42:44
And I think this distinction is crucial because it affects how we can best support each other.
42:49
HSPs often benefit from the validation of their deep processing and their emotional
42:52
experiences, along with learning strategies to manage overwhelming input while
42:57
preserving their very valuable sensitivity.
43:00
Or people with ASD might benefit more from support that can help them navigate
43:03
sensory challenges and social situations in ways that work for their unique neurotype.
43:08
And it's also fair to say that understanding these differences,
43:12
it doesn't help us to know everything, but it helps us move away from the one-size-fits-all approach.
43:17
Because when you recognize that HSP and ASD are distinct ways of experiencing
43:21
the world, I think that you can better appreciate and support the very unique
43:25
strengths and challenges of both groups.
43:27
And I think that leads to a more effective strategy for helping people thrive
43:30
in their own individual unique way.
43:33
So let me go through a lot of examples. Most of them are based off of real life
43:37
experiences, which is one of the reasons it took me so long to put this episode
43:40
together because I reached out to a lot of my clients that I've worked with
43:43
in the past and current, whether they are high functioning autistic,
43:48
whether they are on the ASD spectrum
43:50
or our HSP, or if they have family members and loved ones that are.
43:55
So let's talk about nature of sensitivity. For the HSP, primarily it's emotional
44:00
and sensory sensitivity with greater self-awareness.
44:03
So they're more likely to notice subtle changes in the environment and emotional states.
44:06
An HSP might feel overwhelmed at a concert, but they can regulate their response
44:10
by taking breaks or they can use coping strategies.
44:14
Someone with ASD may experience both over and under stimulation to sensory input.
44:19
So their responses can be more intense and also less predictable.
44:22
So the example there might be an autistic person might find certain textures
44:25
completely intolerable or they might seek out intense sensory experiences.
44:30
So let me just play out some scenarios.
44:32
So scenario one, we're in a crowded shopping mall.
44:36
The HSP's response, they initially notice the increasing tension in their body
44:40
as they become aware of all the sensory inputs going on, but they can typically
44:45
identify specific triggers.
44:47
Maybe it's the perfume from the cosmetic store, overlapping conversations,
44:51
bright fluorescent lights, the squeaking of shoes on the floor.
44:54
And they might say to their companion, starting to feel a little bit overwhelmed.
44:58
Can we find a quieter area or maybe just take a short break at a cafe?
45:02
And they can usually continue shopping after taking a brief break and using
45:05
coping strategies like deep breathing, coming back to the present moment.
45:10
But they remain aware of their environment, but they can manage it with conscious effort.
45:15
In that same crowded shopping mall, the ASD response might be different.
45:19
It might look something like this, where they might experience a sudden and
45:23
intense sensory overload without that gradual awareness.
45:26
They might find it difficult to identify which specific sensory input is causing
45:30
distress, but there are just far too many things happening.
45:34
And they could have a more immediate, and I think that's one of the keys,
45:37
and a more intense reaction like needing to leave immediately are sometimes
45:41
becoming nonverbal, which I've watched that happen in my office.
45:44
And they might need to immediately and completely remove themselves from the
45:47
environment to regulate.
45:48
And one of the key differences here as well is that someone with ASD may use
45:53
stimming behaviors. I've seen this again in my office with adults,
45:56
like rocking or hand flapping, trying to coat.
45:59
So if we're summarizing the key difference, HSPs typically maintain awareness
46:04
and they can articulate their experience while they're managing it.
46:06
While those with ASD might experience more sudden and overwhelming reactions
46:09
that require a complete removal from the situation, and you may see more stimming behaviors.
46:15
And let me talk about stimming for a couple of minutes, because this is something
46:18
that I have done my best to learn a lot about over the years.
46:21
Because you'll see some overlap here with people like myself who literally need
46:25
a fidget cube or I will pick down every single part of my cuticles.
46:29
Right now I have a constant callus on my right index finger that I can pick at,
46:33
or I can be so annoying clicking a pin or have a wonderful client who likes
46:38
to bring me hot chocolate and it comes with a plastic stir stick and I will
46:41
have a field day biting it, bending it, flicking it.
46:44
That's what it can look like in the ADHD world.
46:48
So I kind of went on a tangent that I didn't mean to at that point,
46:51
But let's get back to ASD stimming, and then I'll probably go back to the ADHD
46:55
fidgeting, which is also known
46:57
as doing cool things, and there's nothing wrong with that. Right, guys?
47:01
Stimming, also known as self-stimulatory behavior, refers to repetitive movements
47:06
or sounds that people with ASD use to regulate their sensory input and emotions.
47:11
And it's a natural coping mechanism that can help with things like emotional
47:15
regulation, sensory processing, concentration, anxiety management,
47:20
self-expression, comfort, self-soothing, and common types of stimming.
47:24
And I've seen every one of these that I'm about to mention.
47:28
In my office, hand flapping, rocking back and forth, literally getting up and
47:32
spinning, pacing, finger flicking, tapping objects, rubbing or touching specific
47:37
textures over and over again.
47:39
Or there's verbal and auditory stimming behaviors, humming, repeating words
47:43
or phrases, making specific sounds, or echolalia, which is repeating other people's words.
47:49
That's a big one. That was one of those when I was looking at the crossover
47:51
between ASD and narcissistic traits and tendencies with couples where you often
47:57
see, let's say a wife says that you've really hurt me the way that you've shown up.
48:01
And she's never used those words before, but she's been working on that with her therapist.
48:05
And then her immature, narcissistic, or ASD husband says those exact same words. Well, you also hurt me.
48:12
That's exactly how I feel like because you haven't been showing up.
48:14
So this repeating others' words.
48:16
There can also be visual, staring at spinning objects, watching lights flicker,
48:20
looking at objects from different angles, tracking moving objects.
48:23
So while stimming is most commonly associated with autism, most commonly,
48:28
not an all or nothing statement, neurotypical people also stim,
48:32
like tapping a pin or fidgeting.
48:33
But the key difference is that autistic stimming tends to be more frequent,
48:36
it tends to be more noticeable, and more essential for their regulation.
48:40
And it's less influenced by social norms. When I see one of my clients in particular
48:45
who does the hand flapping, they're not worried about what that looks like,
48:49
even if they're out in public.
48:50
It just has to happen. but I'm not carrying my fidget cube around with me and
48:55
busting it out in the middle of a shopping mall.
48:56
Although I wouldn't mind doing that. It's just kind of bulky and awkward in my pocket.
49:00
But I think importantly, stimming is usually harmless and it shouldn't be discouraged
49:04
unless it's causing harm to the person or other people because it's a vital
49:07
self-regulation tool for many people that have ASD.
49:10
But let me just do a real quick similarities.
49:13
ASD stimming and ADHD fidgeting. This is fascinating to me.
49:17
The key similarities that both serve self-regulatory functions.
49:20
Both help with focus and concentration.
49:22
Both can be unconscious and automatic, and both may increase during stress or excitement.
49:27
Now, the key difference is purpose, because the ASD version of stimming primarily
49:32
focuses on sensory regulation and emotional processing.
49:36
ADHD stimming typically helps with attention focus and an excess amount of energy.
49:43
It helps you release that, and it really does.
49:46
So then how is it presented? ASD, more varied, more complex movements and sounds,
49:50
rocking, flapping, complex finger movements, ADHD, usually simpler movements,
49:55
tapping, tapping your foot incessantly, bouncing, basic object manipulation.
49:59
And then I go back to social awareness. In the world of ASD,
50:02
less influenced by social context may continue regardless of whatever setting,
50:06
wherever you're at, you may still have to feel this need to stim.
50:09
But for people with ADHD, more socially modulated. And so it can often switch
50:13
to less noticeable forms. Some of the tools used, ASD may prefer specific textures,
50:18
sounds, movements without tools.
50:20
ADHD often uses purpose-made fidget tools, spinners, stress balls.
50:25
Putty. I've had them all.
50:27
And then the intensity, ASD can be more intense and essential for functioning.
50:31
ADHD generally is more subtle and supplementary to other coping strategies.
50:34
But both behaviors are valid coping mechanisms that they shouldn't be discouraged,
50:39
again, unless they're causing harm.
50:41
If all of a sudden I feel the need to chuck my fidget cube at somebody,
50:43
we probably need to have a talk.
50:45
So let's go back to the scenarios. We're still talking about the nature of sensitivity.
50:48
So scenario two, you're in a new restaurant.
50:50
The HSP response quickly notices and processes multiple aspects of the environment,
50:55
lighting, music, volume, temperature, other people's dinner conversations.
51:01
And they can identify which sensory inputs are pleasant versus which ones are
51:04
uncomfortable. And they might request a quieter table or ask for the music to be turned down.
51:09
But they can typically adapt and enjoy the meal once initial adjustments are
51:13
made. and they remain aware, but they can start to filter the background stimuli.
51:17
In that same scenario, an ASD response, they might find certain aspects of the
51:21
environment completely intolerable, like the clink of silverware or the smell
51:25
of certain foods. Let's go back to talking about sardines.
51:28
They can have difficulty filtering out background noise to focus on their dining
51:31
companions' conversations, and they might need very specific conditions to be
51:35
comfortable, like sitting in a particular spot or having certain foods not touch on the plate.
51:40
They may even find the unpredictability of new sounds and smells really distressing
51:44
and want to continue to just go back to the same place, eat the same things.
51:48
And they can seek sensory input
51:49
by preferring very spicy foods or specific textures at times as well.
51:53
So going back to the key difference there, HSPs processing their environment,
51:57
maybe we'll call it more holistically and can usually adapt with some modifications,
52:01
while those with ASD might have more specific and intense sensory needs that might be less flexible.
52:07
Let's go to scenario three, a change in your office environment.
52:11
The HSP response might look like the person immediately notices subtle changes,
52:16
like a new air freshener or different lighting, or is that a new rug?
52:19
They can usually pinpoint exactly what's changed and then why it's affecting them.
52:23
And they might feel distracted, but they can typically continue working,
52:26
but they're going to need to address the change.
52:29
And they can effectively communicate their needs. Hey, the new air freshener
52:33
is pretty strong, kind of giving me a headache. Can we try something milder?
52:37
There are multiple clients that I have that I know when I have them coming that
52:40
day that I don't burn a candle because they are just so overwhelmed by strong smells.
52:47
And sometimes they will come in and say, oh, do you have a candle going today?
52:50
And it would have been from the day before, but they just smell things more deeply.
52:56
Now back to this office environment, the person with ASD, their response might
53:00
feel intense discomfort without immediately recognizing why.
53:02
They're just not sure. and they may find the change very disruptive to their
53:06
routine and their ability to focus.
53:08
I've seen this happen when I've adjusted things in my office or once when I
53:12
moved from one building to the next.
53:13
One of my clients that was in their 20s, that very high functioning ASD,
53:18
let me know for weeks that they just didn't like that they had to go a different
53:22
way and that they're in a new building and they just didn't really like the office.
53:26
In that scenario, that person needed significant time to adjust even to minor
53:29
changes, but this was a big change.
53:32
And they might really have difficulty articulating what's bothering them.
53:35
And this person definitely did have difficulty understanding that that was why
53:39
they just felt so unsure, uneasy, or anxious when they were coming to the new building.
53:43
And so then somebody with ASD could experience shutdown or meltdown if the change
53:47
is too disruptive. I realized at that point that I might even lose a client because of it.
53:52
So back to these key differences in this office environment,
53:54
HSPs typically maintain awareness.
53:56
They can articulate their sensory experiences, but they're still trying to manage them.
53:59
And then those with ASD might experience more intense disruption from changes
54:03
and need more time and support to adjust.
54:06
So I think, and we'll wrap this up, the fundamental differences across all these
54:11
scenarios is that HSPs generally maintain conscious awareness of their sensory experience.
54:17
They can typically identify and articulate what's bothering them.
54:21
And they usually, you can see typically and usually, these are not all or nothing
54:25
statements, usually have more flexibility in their coping strategies.
54:28
And they can often adapt within the situation.
54:31
While those with ASD typically have more sudden or intense reactions to sensory input.
54:36
And they might find it harder to express or identify what's causing that distress.
54:40
And so they may need more specific and consistent accommodations.
54:44
And then they often require more time and support to process and adapt to sensory changes.
54:50
Actually, before we wrap things up, and I know this is going a bit long,
54:54
but one of the places you see the most difference is in social interactions.
54:58
Let me spend a little bit of time here because I think this is where you can
55:00
really identify key differences, but you'll also see that there continues to
55:04
be similarities as well.
55:05
So let's talk about social hierarchies and conversation timing and things like
55:10
that that happen in a group setting
55:11
and why these can be particularly challenging for somebody with ASD.
55:15
Because you can think of social hierarchy is almost like this invisible,
55:18
I guess, like a web of relationships and power dynamics.
55:22
So in most group settings, especially professional ones, there are unwritten
55:25
rules about who can say what, when, and how.
55:28
For neurotypical people, these rules are often intuitive.
55:31
They naturally sense when to defer to authority or how to navigate complex relationships.
55:36
For somebody with ASD, these invisible rules can be really challenging to perceive
55:41
and especially to navigate.
55:42
Because imagine somebody trying to play a game where everybody else seems to
55:45
know the rules instinctively, but you've never been explicitly told them.
55:49
And even if you are told them, it makes no sense to you.
55:52
And this is often how social hierarchies feel to somebody with ASD.
55:56
So if you go back to this workplace environment, you might be in a workplace
56:00
meeting, and this is very much based on real life experience.
56:04
There are subtle differences in how you might, let's say, challenge an idea
56:08
from a peer versus a senior manager, or present technical information to different
56:12
audience levels or know where certain
56:14
topics should be discussed privately rather than in group settings.
56:18
I remember going and doing demonstrations of software when
56:20
I was in the software industry well before I became a therapist and taking
56:24
an engineer or two with me and I was talking to magazine editors trying to get
56:29
favorable reviews and then you would have this engineer just talk completely
56:33
over their head and when I would say hey can you try to dumb that down they
56:38
would just look at me and think I don't understand this is the way it works.
56:42
Let's talk also about timing in group conversations. Group conversations have
56:46
a natural rhythm, almost like a dance.
56:49
When you know to jump in, when you share a story, when you don't.
56:53
So for most people, the rhythm can somewhat come naturally.
56:58
Even if that's not a rhythm or a situation that you participate in,
57:02
you might be able to sit back and still observe and understand when you could jump in.
57:06
They can sense the right moment to join, when to hold back or when somebody else is about to speak.
57:12
But typically for someone with ASD, this rhythm, it can be really difficult to perceive.
57:17
It's almost like trying to join like a jump rope game in motion.
57:21
They can see the rope turning, but timing your entry perfectly requires complex
57:26
coordination and a prediction of patterns.
57:28
And I think here's where it gets back to the differences of where I've spoken
57:32
with enough HSPs who sit back and watch a group dynamic play out and understand
57:37
they just choose not to interject because they're worried that they might say
57:41
the wrong thing or that somebody might take something the wrong way.
57:44
So, often they just don't say anything. But then that person with ASD is trying
57:48
to interject and it's awkward and it doesn't work and they're not quite sure why.
57:52
And here's what makes these things really challenging. So, things like conversational
57:56
pauses aren't always invitations to speak because sometimes people pause to breathe or to think.
58:01
And multiple subtle cues might signal that somebody is about to speak,
58:05
slight body movements and take a breath, shifting position.
58:09
And then the one that can be a real challenge for people with ASD,
58:12
the right amount of time to speak. Because that can vary by context and social setting.
58:16
Go back to Sarah and Michael at the beginning of this episode,
58:19
which was very much based on a true story, and where Sarah did not understand
58:23
the rhythm of communicating.
58:25
And then different people might send different signals about wanting to enter
58:29
the conversation or to leave the conversation.
58:36
Let's go back to Sarah. So now she's in a meeting and Sarah has very important
58:40
information that she wants to share about a technical issue.
58:43
So she sees what she thinks is a pause in the conversation and she starts speaking
58:47
about the technical problem.
58:49
What she hasn't noticed is that
58:50
the team leader was taking a breath to transition to the next agenda item.
58:54
And there was already another colleague who had slightly raised their hand indicating,
58:58
okay, can I have, can I speak for a second.
59:00
And then the current topic was pretty much wrapped up, not open for new discussion.
59:05
So Sarah still contributed. And while it was valuable, it might be perceived
59:10
as an interruption because she missed all these subtle social cues.
59:13
And this isn't because she's being rude or doesn't care about others.
59:16
It's because this complex web of social signals that guide conversation timing
59:21
is not as naturally readable for her as it is for neurotypical individuals.
59:26
So understanding these challenges, I think, can really help explain why somebody
59:30
with ASD might appear to interrupt or speak at inappropriate times.
59:34
They're not ignoring social rules. They're often simply unable to perceive those
59:38
subtle cues that make these rules invisible to others.
59:41
And this is fundamentally different from an HSP who might feel overwhelmed by
59:45
social interaction, but they can read and navigate these social dynamics much more intuitively.
59:50
If you look at an HP in a group conversation, most likely they're picking up
59:54
the subtle emotional undertones in the group dynamics. They're probably noticing
59:57
tension between others before it becomes really obvious.
1:00:00
They might even jump in and try to buffer for one person who they think is starting
1:00:04
to get frustrated with another.
1:00:06
But they can also feel overwhelmed by absorbing and metabolizing everybody else's emotions.
1:00:11
So they may need breaks, but then they can still seamlessly just come back in
1:00:14
and rejoin a conversation.
1:00:16
And an example of that might be they notice a friend's slight change in tone,
1:00:20
indicating discomfort, so then they naturally shift the topic.
1:00:24
And back to ASD, most likely struggling, tracking multiple conversations.
1:00:28
They might find it very difficult to enter into the discussions.
1:00:31
Most likely, they may be missing social hierarchies and group dynamics.
1:00:35
And they can become overwhelmed by processing multiple social inputs.
1:00:38
So they might interrupt somebody without realizing, or they might continue a
1:00:41
topic after others have moved on.
1:00:43
And one more thing. I forgot I have some notes down about how nonverbal communication
1:00:51
differs between HSPs and then people with ASD. Because this is a pretty big one.
1:00:56
Think of HSP's ability to read nonverbal cues as like having really a highly
1:01:01
sensitive emotional radar. Because they don't just see facial expressions and
1:01:04
they don't just see body language.
1:01:05
They process them together deeply, intuitively. And it's almost like similar
1:01:09
to how a sommelier, a professional wine taster, can detect subtle notes.
1:01:14
Something is always woody and undertones that others might miss.
1:01:18
In my world, I think, I don't think they can do that. But what do I know? Because I'm not them.
1:01:24
But this heightened sensitivity means that they're often processing layers of
1:01:27
emotional information that others, even neurotypical individuals, may not notice.
1:01:31
Imagine walking into a meeting room. The HSP might immediately notice slight
1:01:35
tension in somebody's shoulders, indicating a little stress,
1:01:37
barely perceivable tremor in somebody's voice, suggesting some anxiety.
1:01:41
The way two colleagues are sitting slightly angled away from each other,
1:01:43
suggesting that they might have a recent conflict, or maybe even a subtle shift
1:01:47
in the room's entire energy when a particular topic is mentioned.
1:01:50
And a reminder, the sensitivity is not learned. It's an inherent way that the
1:01:55
brain processes social and emotional information.
1:01:58
They may notice that a friend's laugh sounds slightly forced,
1:02:01
or that a colleague's unusual enthusiastic greeting seems a little bit more
1:02:04
subdued, leading them to sense something's wrong long before others pick up on it.
1:02:09
But now if we look at nonverbal communication and ASD, if we look in contrast
1:02:14
for many people with autism,
1:02:16
reading nonverbal communication is like honestly trying to understand a foreign
1:02:19
language without a translator, because the signals are there,
1:02:22
but the inherent meaning isn't automatically processed.
1:02:25
This isn't about intelligence, and it's definitely not about a lack of caring,
1:02:28
but it's about, again, how their brain processes social information differently.
1:02:32
So using the same meeting room scenario, a person with autism might miss the
1:02:36
subtle signs of tension or conflict, focus on the literal words being spoken
1:02:40
rather than tone or inflection,
1:02:42
or find it challenging to maintain eye contact while processing what's being
1:02:45
said, and they may need explicit verbal confirmation to other people's emotional states.
1:02:52
What you often see is that, let's say, a conversation's wrapping up.
1:02:55
And going back to that opening example, which I love so much,
1:02:57
is when Michael said, well, I should probably let you get back to work.
1:03:00
The HSP would immediately recognize this as a polite way to end the conversation
1:03:04
and most likely apologize. I am so sorry I kept you this long.
1:03:07
And then they're picking up on the subtle shifts in the body language,
1:03:10
indicating that the person really needs to leave.
1:03:12
They notice if the person's genuinely uncomfortable ending the conversation
1:03:15
or maybe even feeling rushed.
1:03:16
And again, the HSP is most likely going to be the one that is already apologized
1:03:20
three or four times and is the one that's leaving.
1:03:23
They will most likely respond with an appropriate social cue to facilitate a
1:03:27
smooth ending, but take the person with ASD and they most likely will take that
1:03:32
statement literally, maybe even responding with, I don't actually need to get back to work right now,
1:03:36
missing that implied meaning that the other person wants to end the conversation
1:03:39
and then continue the conversation until finally they are told that by somebody
1:03:45
that it is time to wrap up and they feel confused when the other person seems
1:03:49
frustrated despite not having directly stated that they needed to leave.
1:03:52
So just that difference in processing nonverbal communication affects not just
1:03:56
individual interactions, but how both groups experience social situations overall.
1:04:00
HSPs might become overwhelmed because they're processing too much emotional info.
1:04:05
But individuals with autism might become overwhelmed because they're working
1:04:09
too hard to consciously decode social signals that other people process automatically.
1:04:14
And this explains why HSPs might need recovery time after social interactions,
1:04:18
and individuals with autism might need recovery time due to the mental effort
1:04:22
required to consciously track and interpret social cues that don't come naturally to them.
1:04:26
So I like to call this, it is the burning of emotional calories.
1:04:29
So think of HSP's social energy as more like a rechargeable battery,
1:04:34
and it drains gradually, but it's pretty predictable.
1:04:36
They're typically very aware of their energy level. They can pace themselves accordingly.
1:04:40
Their fatigue typically comes from processing the rich emotional and sensory
1:04:43
information in social settings.
1:04:45
Kind of like running multiple background programs on a computer,
1:04:47
they slowly use up your processing power.
1:04:50
So during that social event, the HSP might experience this gradual buildup of
1:04:54
emotional information because they're absorbing everybody else's feelings.
1:04:57
They have awareness of multiple layers of social dynamics happening right on
1:05:01
the spot simultaneously.
1:05:02
And then they have a deep processing of the conversations and the interactions that are having.
1:05:07
And then that comes with conscious management of their own emotional responses.
1:05:10
I think about a story I heard once at a wedding where this person that I think
1:05:15
was very highly sensitive, they might participate dancing, engaging in deep
1:05:18
conversations, celebrating with very genuine emotion, but they're aware this battery,
1:05:24
this rechargeable battery is going quick.
1:05:26
It is depleting. So they might take short breaks throughout the event,
1:05:29
step outside for fresh air, find quieter moments to recharge.
1:05:32
The next day, they probably need recovery time, not because the event was unpleasant,
1:05:35
but because their emotional processing system needs time to integrate all the experiences.
1:05:40
And if you think about the burning of emotional calories, somebody with ASD,
1:05:44
the burning of emotional calories is more like trying to run a complex piece
1:05:47
of software on incompatible hardware.
1:05:50
The system might work, but it requires significant extra processing power and maybe a few updates.
1:05:55
And every now and again, it might shut down unexpectedly if it becomes overwhelmed
1:05:59
and you're going to have to reboot it.
1:06:01
The fatigue comes from the constant conscious effort required to decode and
1:06:06
respond to social situations that others would process automatically.
1:06:10
So during these social interactions, somebody with ASD might experience intense
1:06:14
focus, and that's required for just basic processing, trying to read facial
1:06:18
expressions, trying to maintain appropriate eye contact.
1:06:21
But they could have difficulty filtering the relevant social information from the background noise.
1:06:26
And so they have this constant conscious analysis of social rules and expectations
1:06:30
going, which takes up energy.
1:06:33
And so they have this unexpected energy depletion from what could also seem
1:06:37
like really simple interactions.
1:06:38
You can take a common situation like small talk, because while most people engage in it automatically,
1:06:43
for somebody with ASD, it might involve trying to remember appropriate conversation
1:06:47
topics, or monitoring their own tone and volume, or attempting to gauge the
1:06:50
other person's interest, or processing sensory information from the environment,
1:06:53
or trying to identify when and how to end the conversation.
1:06:56
And so I think this explains why somebody with ASD might suddenly reach their
1:06:59
limit without warning, because it's almost like their processing demands became
1:07:03
too intense to maintain.
1:07:04
And it's like a computer or my phone, now that we moved to Arizona, that will overheat.
1:07:08
And all of a sudden, it just shuts down. That's a fascinating one.
1:07:11
If I think of one of the first clients I ever worked with with ASD,
1:07:14
they came in and they were looking for help on why they would be in a big meeting
1:07:19
or they would be talking with guys in the hallway or they would be talking with
1:07:23
their coworkers at lunch.
1:07:24
And then all of a sudden they would realize this is boring me and they would just leave.
1:07:29
And one of their coworkers finally pulled them aside and said,
1:07:33
hey, that's kind of rude.
1:07:34
Another one that was really fascinating about that person was they asked me
1:07:38
if, doesn't everybody think often in movie quotes, which I thought was really
1:07:42
interesting because they would just throw out movie quotes constantly.
1:07:45
And when they weren't met with somebody else sharing a movie quote or sharing
1:07:49
that experience, they didn't understand.
1:07:51
And so they were coming to me asking for help on how do they communicate more
1:07:56
effectively and not just through movie quotes.
1:07:59
So it was very fascinating to see that. So I have more, I have so much more
1:08:03
data. Maybe we'll save that for a follow-up at some point.
1:08:05
I would love your feedback if you have experiences that you would like to share
1:08:08
about your struggles or challenges or your wonderfulness with either HSP or ASD.
1:08:15
And if any of this resonated with you, I would love your stories.
1:08:18
I would love to do a follow-up that I just am able to share stories of how people
1:08:22
have recognized maybe any of the things that we've talked about today and what
1:08:26
they've done to either embrace it, accept it, or maybe even overcome it.
1:08:30
But I'm just grateful for your time. I'm so thankful for people tuning into
1:08:34
the podcast year after year.
1:08:36
And I would love it if you would follow this and rate and subscribe and review
1:08:40
and all those wonderful things wherever you get your podcast.
1:08:44
And taking us out per usual on the virtual couch is Aurora Florence and her amazing song.
1:08:49
It's wonderful because honestly, life truly can be once you embrace who you
1:08:53
are because you're the only version of you. Have an amazing week. We'll see you next time.
1:08:57
Music.