Latest / The Living Conversation / Dr. Nick Egan on Zen, Tibetan Buddhism, and the Nature of Mind

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Dr. Nick Egan on Zen, Tibetan Buddhism, and the Nature of Mind · The Living Conversation

• 0:00
  Foreign.
• 0:15
  I'm
• 0:15
  Anthony
• 0:16
  Wright
• 0:16
  and
• 0:16
  I'm
• 0:16
  your
• 0:16
  host
• 0:17
  today
• 0:17
  along
• 0:18
  with
• 0:18
  my
• 0:18
  co
• 0:19
  host.
• 0:20
  And
• 0:21
  this
• 0:21
  is
• 0:21
  a
• 0:21
  living
• 0:22
  conversation
• 0:23
  and
• 0:23
  we
• 0:23
  are
• 0:23
  here
• 0:24
  with
• 0:24
  our
• 0:24
  guest,
• 0:25
  Nick.
• 0:27
  And.
• 0:30
  Forgive
• 0:30
  me,
• 0:30
  Nick,
• 0:31
  what
• 0:31
  is
• 0:31
  your
• 0:31
  last
• 0:31
  name?
• 0:32
  Egan.
• 0:33
  I
• 0:33
  was
• 0:33
  just
• 0:33
  going
• 0:34
  to
• 0:34
  put
• 0:34
  it
• 0:34
  on
• 0:34
  the.
• 0:35
  On
• 0:35
  my
• 0:35
  profile
• 0:35
  here.
• 0:36
  Okay.
• 0:37
  Yeah.
• 0:37
  All
• 0:38
  right,
• 0:38
  so,
• 0:38
  and
• 0:38
  Adam
• 0:39
  and
• 0:40
  I
• 0:40
  were
• 0:40
  talking
• 0:40
  about
• 0:41
  that
• 0:41
  Adam
• 0:41
  is
• 0:42
  going
• 0:42
  to
• 0:42
  begin
• 0:44
  a
• 0:44
  podcast
• 0:45
  that
• 0:45
  is
• 0:45
  a
• 0:46
  little
• 0:46
  bit
• 0:46
  more
• 0:46
  flexible
• 0:47
  than
• 0:47
  the
• 0:47
  radio
• 0:47
  format
• 0:48
  that
• 0:48
  we're
• 0:48
  in
• 0:48
  right
• 0:49
  now.
• 0:49
  So
• 0:49
  why
• 0:49
  don't
• 0:49
  you
• 0:50
  talk
• 0:50
  a
• 0:50
  little
• 0:50
  bit
• 0:50
  about
• 0:50
  that
• 0:50
  to
• 0:51
  get
• 0:51
  us
• 0:51
  started,
• 0:51
  Adam?
• 0:52
  Yeah.
• 0:52
  Thank
• 0:53
  you.
• 0:53
  So
• 0:53
  also
• 0:53
  welcome
• 0:54
  everyone
• 0:54
  to
• 0:54
  the
• 0:54
  first
• 0:54
  episode
• 0:55
  of
• 0:55
  the
• 0:55
  Way
• 0:55
  Between
• 0:56
  Podcast,
• 0:57
  the
• 0:57
  crossover
• 0:58
  episode.
• 0:59
  And
• 0:59
  basically,
• 1:00
  I
• 1:00
  just
• 1:00
  honestly
• 1:01
  enjoy
• 1:02
  speaking
• 1:02
  with
• 1:02
  you
• 1:02
  guys
• 1:03
  a
• 1:03
  lot
• 1:03
  and
• 1:04
  felt
• 1:04
  like
• 1:04
  I
• 1:04
  had
• 1:04
  the
• 1:04
  bandwidth
• 1:05
  to
• 1:05
  do
• 1:05
  a
• 1:05
  little
• 1:05
  more
• 1:06
  on
• 1:06
  it.
• 1:07
  And
• 1:07
  I
• 1:07
  know
• 1:07
  you
• 1:07
  guys
• 1:08
  both
• 1:08
  are
• 1:08
  swamped,
• 1:09
  so
• 1:09
  I
• 1:09
  figured
• 1:09
  I
• 1:09
  would
• 1:09
  take
• 1:09
  the
• 1:10
  lead
• 1:10
  on
• 1:10
  the.
• 1:10
  The
• 1:10
  Way
• 1:10
  between
• 1:11
  podcasts
• 1:11
  where
• 1:11
  we
• 1:12
  can
• 1:12
  do,
• 1:12
  you
• 1:13
  know,
• 1:13
  I
• 1:13
  can.
• 1:13
  I
• 1:13
  can
• 1:13
  host
• 1:14
  it.
• 1:15
  It's
• 1:15
  a
• 1:15
  little
• 1:15
  bit
• 1:16
  more
• 1:16
  of
• 1:16
  a
• 1:16
  long
• 1:16
  form
• 1:17
  where
• 1:17
  we
• 1:17
  can
• 1:18
  get
• 1:18
  more
• 1:18
  in
• 1:19
  depth,
• 1:19
  I
• 1:19
  think,
• 1:19
  on
• 1:19
  certain
• 1:20
  things
• 1:20
  and
• 1:20
  do
• 1:21
  a
• 1:21
  little
• 1:21
  more
• 1:21
  storytelling.
• 1:22
  A
• 1:22
  lot
• 1:22
  of
• 1:23
  times
• 1:23
  here
• 1:23
  we,
• 1:25
  in
• 1:25
  a
• 1:25
  fun
• 1:26
  way,
• 1:26
  bounce
• 1:26
  around
• 1:27
  from
• 1:27
  ideas
• 1:27
  to
• 1:27
  ideas.
• 1:28
  We
• 1:29
  have
• 1:29
  to
• 1:29
  take
• 1:29
  those
• 1:30
  quick
• 1:30
  breaks
• 1:30
  and
• 1:31
  whatnot.
• 1:31
  So
• 1:32
  on
• 1:32
  the
• 1:33
  podcast
• 1:33
  format,
• 1:34
  we'll
• 1:34
  have
• 1:34
  a
• 1:34
  little
• 1:34
  more
• 1:34
  time
• 1:35
  and
• 1:35
  we'll
• 1:36
  hopefully
• 1:37
  have
• 1:37
  Anthony
• 1:37
  and
• 1:37
  Nick
• 1:38
  on
• 1:38
  quite
• 1:38
  often
• 1:39
  and
• 1:40
  explore
• 1:41
  philosophy
• 1:42
  in
• 1:42
  a
• 1:42
  story
• 1:43
  format
• 1:43
  where
• 1:43
  we're
• 1:43
  looking
• 1:43
  at
• 1:44
  different
• 1:44
  philosophers
• 1:44
  and
• 1:45
  philosophies,
• 1:46
  how
• 1:46
  they
• 1:46
  developed
• 1:47
  over
• 1:47
  the
• 1:47
  years,
• 1:48
  how
• 1:48
  they
• 1:48
  began,
• 1:49
  what
• 1:49
  are
• 1:50
  some
• 1:50
  key
• 1:50
  points
• 1:50
  that
• 1:50
  we
• 1:50
  can
• 1:51
  use
• 1:51
  even
• 1:51
  now
• 1:52
  in
• 1:52
  our
• 1:52
  life
• 1:52
  today.
• 1:53
  So
• 1:53
  a
• 1:53
  lot
• 1:53
  of
• 1:53
  things
• 1:53
  that
• 1:53
  we
• 1:54
  look
• 1:54
  at
• 1:54
  here
• 1:54
  on
• 1:54
  the
• 1:54
  Living
• 1:54
  conversation,
• 1:55
  but
• 1:55
  just
• 1:56
  in
• 1:56
  a
• 1:56
  little
• 1:56
  bit
• 1:56
  more
• 1:56
  of
• 1:56
  an
• 1:57
  in
• 1:57
  depth
• 1:57
  format,
• 1:57
  I
• 1:57
  would
• 1:57
  say.
• 1:59
  And
• 1:59
  that's
• 2:00
  exciting.
• 2:00
  Congratulations.
• 2:01
  Congratulations.
• 2:01
  That's
• 2:02
  going
• 2:02
  to
• 2:02
  be
• 2:02
  available
• 2:03
  on
• 2:03
  the
• 2:04
  Apple
• 2:04
  podcasts.
• 2:05
  Yes.
• 2:06
  That'll
• 2:06
  be
• 2:06
  available
• 2:06
  on
• 2:06
  Spotify
• 2:07
  and
• 2:07
  Apple
• 2:07
  and
• 2:07
  everywhere
• 2:08
  else
• 2:08
  that
• 2:08
  you
• 2:08
  might
• 2:08
  want
• 2:08
  to
• 2:09
  get
• 2:09
  your
• 2:09
  podcast
• 2:09
  from.
• 2:10
  Definitely.
• 2:11
  All
• 2:11
  right,
• 2:13
  well,
• 2:13
  what's
• 2:13
  up,
• 2:13
  you
• 2:13
  guys?
• 2:17
  Anybody
• 2:17
  want
• 2:17
  to
• 2:17
  start?
• 2:19
  I'll
• 2:20
  let.
• 2:20
  Adam.
• 2:20
  Adam,
• 2:21
  you
• 2:21
  can
• 2:21
  start.
• 2:21
  Yeah,
• 2:21
  you
• 2:22
  tell
• 2:22
  me.
• 2:23
  Yeah,
• 2:23
  I
• 2:23
  mean,
• 2:23
  the.
• 2:24
  The
• 2:24
  different
• 2:24
  kind
• 2:25
  of
• 2:25
  things
• 2:25
  that
• 2:25
  we'll
• 2:25
  be
• 2:25
  looking
• 2:26
  at.
• 2:26
  You
• 2:26
  know,
• 2:27
  I,
• 2:27
  as
• 2:28
  you
• 2:28
  guys
• 2:28
  well
• 2:28
  know,
• 2:28
  I
• 2:28
  have
• 2:29
  a
• 2:29
  manuscript
• 2:30
  out
• 2:30
  working
• 2:31
  on,
• 2:31
  trying
• 2:31
  to
• 2:31
  get
• 2:32
  different
• 2:32
  eyeballs
• 2:33
  on.
• 2:33
  Originally
• 2:34
  I
• 2:34
  had
• 2:34
  it
• 2:34
  titled
• 2:35
  Be
• 2:36
  a
• 2:36
  Short
• 2:36
  and
• 2:38
  well,
• 2:38
  now
• 2:38
  I
• 2:38
  changed
• 2:38
  it.
• 2:38
  It's
• 2:39
  called
• 2:39
  the
• 2:39
  Art
• 2:39
  of
• 2:39
  Living.
• 2:40
  But
• 2:40
  it
• 2:40
  was.
• 2:41
  It
• 2:41
  was
• 2:41
  meant
• 2:41
  to
• 2:41
  be
• 2:42
  in
• 2:42
  the
• 2:42
  first
• 2:42
  place,
• 2:43
  a
• 2:43
  story
• 2:43
  of
• 2:44
  philosophy
• 2:44
  east
• 2:44
  and
• 2:45
  West.
• 2:46
  It
• 2:47
  was
• 2:47
  meant
• 2:47
  to
• 2:48
  describe
• 2:49
  different
• 2:49
  philosophers
• 2:50
  and
• 2:50
  how
• 2:50
  they
• 2:51
  influenced
• 2:52
  their
• 2:53
  societies,
• 2:53
  how
• 2:54
  they
• 2:54
  developed
• 2:54
  their
• 2:54
  ideas.
• 2:55
  And
• 2:55
  how
• 2:55
  their
• 2:56
  influence
• 2:56
  still
• 2:57
  trickles
• 2:57
  down
• 2:58
  all
• 2:58
  the
• 2:58
  way
• 2:58
  to
• 2:58
  us
• 2:58
  today,
• 2:59
  how
• 2:59
  their
• 2:59
  influence
• 3:00
  helped
• 3:00
  shape
• 3:01
  institutions
• 3:02
  east
• 3:02
  and
• 3:02
  west,
• 3:03
  how
• 3:03
  their
• 3:03
  influence
• 3:04
  helped
• 3:04
  shape
• 3:04
  hearts
• 3:05
  and
• 3:05
  minds
• 3:05
  east
• 3:05
  and
• 3:05
  West.
• 3:06
  So
• 3:07
  that's
• 3:07
  going
• 3:07
  to
• 3:08
  be
• 3:08
  a
• 3:08
  big
• 3:08
  focus
• 3:09
  on
• 3:09
  the
• 3:09
  way
• 3:10
  between
• 3:10
  podcasts,
• 3:11
  for
• 3:11
  example,
• 3:12
  looking
• 3:12
  at
• 3:12
  the
• 3:12
  origins
• 3:13
  of
• 3:13
  Socrates
• 3:14
  or
• 3:14
  Confucius
• 3:15
  or
• 3:15
  Lao
• 3:15
  Tzu
• 3:16
  or
• 3:16
  Hui
• 3:17
  Ning
• 3:17
  from
• 3:17
  the
• 3:17
  Zen
• 3:17
  tradition,
• 3:18
  making
• 3:19
  sure
• 3:19
  we
• 3:19
  give
• 3:19
  a
• 3:19
  real
• 3:19
  thorough
• 3:20
  description
• 3:20
  of
• 3:21
  how
• 3:22
  their
• 3:22
  ideas
• 3:22
  arose,
• 3:23
  maybe
• 3:23
  a
• 3:23
  little
• 3:23
  bit
• 3:23
  about
• 3:24
  their
• 3:24
  biography.
• 3:25
  And
• 3:25
  that'll
• 3:25
  be
• 3:25
  the
• 3:26
  jumping
• 3:26
  off
• 3:26
  point
• 3:27
  to
• 3:27
  some
• 3:27
  conversations
• 3:28
  about
• 3:28
  how
• 3:28
  their
• 3:28
  philosophy
• 3:29
  can
• 3:30
  influence
• 3:30
  us
• 3:30
  today,
• 3:31
  how
• 3:31
  their
• 3:31
  philosophy
• 3:31
  can
• 3:32
  help
• 3:32
  us
• 3:32
  in.
• 3:33
  In
• 3:33
  the
• 3:33
  art
• 3:33
  of
• 3:33
  living,
• 3:33
  in
• 3:34
  the
• 3:34
  art
• 3:34
  of
• 3:34
  living.
• 3:34
  Well,
• 3:35
  help
• 3:35
  us
• 3:36
  navigate
• 3:37
  life.
• 3:37
  Basically,
• 3:38
  we
• 3:38
  talked
• 3:38
  about
• 3:38
  before
• 3:38
  on
• 3:39
  this
• 3:39
  podcast
• 3:39
  about
• 3:40
  how
• 3:40
  Socrates,
• 3:41
  one
• 3:41
  of
• 3:42
  the
• 3:42
  first
• 3:42
  things
• 3:42
  that
• 3:42
  hit
• 3:42
  for
• 3:43
  me
• 3:43
  in
• 3:44
  philosophy
• 3:44
  was
• 3:44
  in
• 3:45
  my
• 3:45
  Philosophy
• 3:45
  101
• 3:46
  class
• 3:46
  as
• 3:46
  a
• 3:46
  freshman,
• 3:47
  where
• 3:48
  philosophy
• 3:49
  Socrates
• 3:50
  is
• 3:50
  trying
• 3:50
  to
• 3:51
  show
• 3:52
  the
• 3:52
  power
• 3:53
  and
• 3:53
  the
• 3:53
  value
• 3:53
  of
• 3:54
  philosophy.
• 3:54
  And
• 3:55
  his
• 3:55
  argument
• 3:56
  is
• 3:56
  that,
• 3:56
  you
• 3:57
  know,
• 3:57
  if
• 3:57
  you're
• 3:57
  going
• 3:58
  out
• 3:58
  to
• 3:58
  see,
• 3:59
  wouldn't
• 3:59
  you
• 4:00
  want
• 4:00
  a
• 4:00
  wise,
• 4:00
  experienced
• 4:01
  sea
• 4:01
  captain
• 4:02
  or
• 4:02
  would
• 4:02
  you
• 4:02
  want
• 4:02
  an
• 4:02
  ignorant
• 4:03
  one?
• 4:03
  Which
• 4:03
  one
• 4:03
  will
• 4:03
  give
• 4:03
  you
• 4:03
  better
• 4:04
  luck?
• 4:05
  Same
• 4:05
  thing
• 4:05
  with
• 4:06
  a
• 4:06
  doctor,
• 4:06
  same
• 4:07
  thing
• 4:07
  with
• 4:07
  a
• 4:07
  general.
• 4:08
  So
• 4:08
  he
• 4:08
  says
• 4:09
  the
• 4:09
  argument
• 4:09
  is,
• 4:10
  then
• 4:10
  why
• 4:10
  in
• 4:10
  the
• 4:10
  world
• 4:11
  would
• 4:11
  you,
• 4:11
  would
• 4:11
  you
• 4:12
  not
• 4:12
  value
• 4:13
  philosophy
• 4:13
  as
• 4:14
  the
• 4:14
  highest
• 4:14
  good?
• 4:15
  Why,
• 4:15
  why
• 4:16
  in
• 4:16
  the
• 4:16
  world
• 4:16
  would
• 4:16
  you
• 4:16
  not
• 4:17
  seek
• 4:17
  the
• 4:17
  art
• 4:17
  of
• 4:18
  wisdom
• 4:18
  so
• 4:19
  you
• 4:19
  know
• 4:19
  how
• 4:19
  to
• 4:19
  navigate
• 4:20
  this
• 4:20
  life
• 4:20
  with.
• 4:20
  With
• 4:21
  the
• 4:21
  best
• 4:21
  luck?
• 4:22
  So
• 4:22
  that's
• 4:22
  one
• 4:22
  example
• 4:23
  of
• 4:23
  what
• 4:23
  we're
• 4:24
  looking
• 4:24
  at,
• 4:25
  you
• 4:25
  know,
• 4:25
  most
• 4:26
  famous
• 4:26
  philosophers,
• 4:27
  most
• 4:27
  influential
• 4:28
  philosophers
• 4:28
  and
• 4:29
  how
• 4:29
  they,
• 4:30
  they
• 4:30
  can
• 4:31
  guide
• 4:31
  us
• 4:31
  in
• 4:31
  a
• 4:31
  lot
• 4:31
  of
• 4:31
  ways.
• 4:32
  So
• 4:32
  when
• 4:32
  I
• 4:32
  first
• 4:32
  heard
• 4:33
  that
• 4:33
  story
• 4:33
  I
• 4:34
  mentioned
• 4:34
  before,
• 4:34
  that
• 4:34
  was
• 4:35
  it
• 4:35
  for
• 4:35
  me.
• 4:35
  I
• 4:35
  went
• 4:36
  straight
• 4:36
  to
• 4:36
  registration
• 4:37
  and
• 4:37
  changed
• 4:37
  my
• 4:37
  major.
• 4:38
  I
• 4:38
  said,
• 4:38
  I
• 4:38
  agree
• 4:38
  with
• 4:38
  you,
• 4:39
  Socrates.
• 4:39
  I
• 4:40
  want
• 4:40
  to
• 4:40
  learn
• 4:40
  how
• 4:40
  to.
• 4:43
  Yeah,
• 4:44
  it
• 4:44
  reminds
• 4:44
  me
• 4:44
  in,
• 4:45
  in
• 4:46
  Buddhism,
• 4:47
  specifically
• 4:47
  in
• 4:47
  Tibetan
• 4:47
  Buddhism,
• 4:48
  there
• 4:48
  are
• 4:48
  a
• 4:48
  lot
• 4:48
  of
• 4:49
  formulations,
• 4:49
  a
• 4:50
  lot
• 4:50
  of
• 4:50
  almost
• 4:51
  like,
• 4:52
  well,
• 4:53
  they're
• 4:53
  just
• 4:53
  lenses
• 4:54
  with
• 4:54
  which
• 4:54
  to
• 4:54
  view
• 4:55
  the
• 4:55
  entirety
• 4:55
  of
• 4:56
  spirituality.
• 4:57
  And
• 4:57
  one
• 4:57
  of
• 4:57
  the
• 4:57
  most
• 4:57
  famous,
• 4:58
  one
• 4:58
  of
• 4:58
  the
• 4:58
  most
• 4:58
  foundational
• 4:59
  is
• 4:59
  view
• 5:00
  path
• 5:01
  and
• 5:01
  then
• 5:01
  results.
• 5:02
  So
• 5:02
  it's
• 5:02
  like
• 5:02
  the
• 5:02
  view
• 5:03
  is
• 5:03
  philosophy
• 5:05
  in
• 5:05
  one
• 5:05
  way.
• 5:05
  It's
• 5:06
  also
• 5:06
  like
• 5:06
  my
• 5:06
  meditative
• 5:07
  view.
• 5:07
  It's
• 5:07
  how
• 5:07
  I'm
• 5:07
  thinking
• 5:08
  about
• 5:08
  myself
• 5:08
  and
• 5:08
  others
• 5:10
  and
• 5:10
  it
• 5:10
  informs
• 5:11
  then
• 5:11
  path,
• 5:12
  right?
• 5:12
  So
• 5:12
  the
• 5:13
  view
• 5:13
  is
• 5:14
  the
• 5:14
  foundational
• 5:14
  component
• 5:15
  of
• 5:15
  path
• 5:15
  and
• 5:16
  then
• 5:16
  that
• 5:16
  will
• 5:16
  lead
• 5:16
  to
• 5:17
  ideally
• 5:18
  like
• 5:18
  the
• 5:18
  outcome
• 5:18
  of
• 5:19
  enlightenment,
• 5:19
  which
• 5:19
  would
• 5:20
  be
• 5:20
  the
• 5:20
  result.
• 5:21
  So
• 5:21
  that
• 5:21
  view
• 5:21
  piece
• 5:22
  is
• 5:22
  so
• 5:22
  important
• 5:22
  and
• 5:23
  it
• 5:23
  just
• 5:23
  reminds
• 5:23
  me
• 5:23
  as
• 5:24
  you
• 5:24
  were
• 5:24
  talking,
• 5:24
  Adam,
• 5:25
  it
• 5:25
  wasn't
• 5:25
  until,
• 5:26
  you
• 5:26
  know,
• 5:27
  early,
• 5:27
  I
• 5:28
  won't
• 5:28
  say
• 5:28
  modern
• 5:28
  times,
• 5:28
  but
• 5:29
  kind
• 5:29
  of
• 5:29
  pre
• 5:30
  modern
• 5:30
  times,
• 5:31
  that
• 5:31
  Philosophy
• 5:32
  was
• 5:32
  divorced
• 5:33
  from
• 5:33
  the
• 5:33
  path
• 5:34
  element.
• 5:34
  And
• 5:34
  especially
• 5:35
  in
• 5:35
  the
• 5:35
  west,
• 5:35
  in
• 5:35
  the
• 5:35
  east,
• 5:36
  not
• 5:36
  as
• 5:36
  much.
• 5:36
  Right.
• 5:37
  Philosophy
• 5:38
  was
• 5:38
  always
• 5:38
  a
• 5:39
  component
• 5:39
  of
• 5:39
  the
• 5:39
  path.
• 5:40
  It
• 5:40
  still
• 5:41
  is.
• 5:41
  And
• 5:41
  so
• 5:41
  it
• 5:42
  was
• 5:42
  like
• 5:42
  a
• 5:42
  modernization
• 5:43
  of
• 5:43
  philosophy
• 5:44
  as
• 5:44
  its
• 5:44
  own
• 5:45
  discipline,
• 5:46
  but
• 5:46
  then
• 5:46
  also
• 5:46
  lost
• 5:47
  elements
• 5:47
  of
• 5:48
  the
• 5:48
  path
• 5:49
  component
• 5:49
  from
• 5:49
  at
• 5:49
  least
• 5:50
  my
• 5:50
  perspective,
• 5:52
  definitely.
• 5:53
  Anthony,
• 5:53
  you
• 5:53
  may
• 5:53
  remember
• 5:54
  this
• 5:54
  as
• 5:54
  well
• 5:54
  where
• 5:54
  Dr.
• 5:55
  Wu
• 5:55
  had
• 5:55
  a
• 5:55
  similar
• 5:56
  type
• 5:56
  of
• 5:56
  outlook
• 5:57
  on
• 5:57
  this.
• 5:57
  We
• 5:57
  always
• 5:57
  mentioned
• 5:58
  Dr.
• 5:58
  Yi
• 5:59
  Wu
• 5:59
  from
• 5:59
  our
• 5:59
  studies
• 5:59
  at
• 6:00
  California
• 6:00
  Institute
• 6:01
  of
• 6:01
  Integral
• 6:01
  Studies
• 6:01
  on
• 6:02
  this
• 6:02
  show.
• 6:02
  We
• 6:02
  often
• 6:02
  mentioned
• 6:03
  him
• 6:03
  as
• 6:03
  a
• 6:03
  mentor
• 6:03
  for,
• 6:03
  for
• 6:04
  all
• 6:04
  three
• 6:04
  of
• 6:04
  us
• 6:04
  really
• 6:05
  in
• 6:05
  so
• 6:05
  many
• 6:05
  ways.
• 6:06
  But
• 6:06
  he
• 6:06
  had
• 6:07
  a.
• 6:08
  Developed
• 6:09
  a
• 6:09
  system
• 6:09
  of
• 6:11
  integral
• 6:11
  life
• 6:12
  philosophy.
• 6:13
  So
• 6:13
  the
• 6:14
  Institute
• 6:15
  of
• 6:15
  Asian
• 6:15
  Studies
• 6:15
  where
• 6:16
  we
• 6:16
  studied
• 6:16
  was
• 6:17
  renamed
• 6:17
  the
• 6:17
  California
• 6:18
  Institute
• 6:18
  of
• 6:18
  Integral
• 6:18
  Studies.
• 6:19
  The
• 6:19
  Institute
• 6:19
  of
• 6:20
  Asian
• 6:20
  Studies
• 6:20
  was
• 6:20
  co
• 6:21
  founded
• 6:21
  by
• 6:21
  Alan
• 6:21
  Watts
• 6:22
  and
• 6:22
  Haridas
• 6:23
  Chaudhary
• 6:24
  from
• 6:24
  India.
• 6:25
  And
• 6:25
  there's
• 6:26
  a
• 6:26
  little
• 6:26
  backstory.
• 6:27
  Hari
• 6:27
  S.
• 6:27
  Chaudhary
• 6:28
  was
• 6:28
  a
• 6:29
  student
• 6:29
  of
• 6:29
  Sri
• 6:30
  Aurobindo.
• 6:31
  The
• 6:31
  Sri
• 6:31
  Aurobindo
• 6:33
  developed,
• 6:33
  I
• 6:33
  think
• 6:34
  it
• 6:34
  was
• 6:34
  integral
• 6:34
  yoga.
• 6:35
  Yes.
• 6:35
  And
• 6:36
  that
• 6:36
  was
• 6:36
  where
• 6:36
  you
• 6:37
  were
• 6:37
  using
• 6:37
  yoga
• 6:38
  to
• 6:38
  bring,
• 6:39
  I
• 6:39
  would
• 6:39
  say
• 6:39
  maybe
• 6:40
  bring
• 6:40
  spirituality
• 6:40
  into
• 6:41
  this
• 6:41
  world.
• 6:42
  And
• 6:43
  his
• 6:43
  student
• 6:43
  Hari
• 6:44
  Deschaghary
• 6:44
  developed
• 6:45
  integral
• 6:45
  philosophy.
• 6:47
  And
• 6:47
  as
• 6:47
  Dr.
• 6:48
  Wu
• 6:48
  began
• 6:48
  working
• 6:48
  in
• 6:49
  the
• 6:49
  early
• 6:49
  80s,
• 6:50
  I
• 6:50
  think
• 6:50
  it
• 6:50
  was
• 6:50
  at
• 6:51
  the
• 6:51
  Institute
• 6:51
  of
• 6:51
  Integral
• 6:52
  Studies
• 6:52
  he
• 6:53
  developed
• 6:53
  a
• 6:54
  theory
• 6:54
  of
• 6:54
  integral
• 6:55
  life
• 6:55
  philosophy.
• 6:57
  So
• 6:57
  integral
• 6:57
  life
• 6:58
  philosophy
• 6:58
  is
• 6:58
  that
• 6:59
  all
• 6:59
  philosophy
• 6:59
  should
• 7:01
  influence
• 7:01
  daily
• 7:02
  life.
• 7:02
  And
• 7:03
  as
• 7:03
  he
• 7:04
  developed
• 7:04
  the
• 7:04
  system
• 7:04
  more
• 7:04
  and
• 7:05
  more,
• 7:05
  the
• 7:05
  reason
• 7:05
  why
• 7:05
  I
• 7:05
  mentioned
• 7:05
  this
• 7:06
  is
• 7:06
  because
• 7:06
  he
• 7:06
  developed
• 7:07
  a
• 7:07
  triangle
• 7:08
  of
• 7:08
  integral
• 7:08
  life
• 7:08
  philosophy.
• 7:09
  So
• 7:10
  when
• 7:10
  Nick's
• 7:10
  mentioning
• 7:11
  view,
• 7:11
  path
• 7:12
  and
• 7:12
  results
• 7:13
  reminds
• 7:13
  me
• 7:13
  of
• 7:13
  Dr.
• 7:14
  Wu's
• 7:14
  triangle.
• 7:14
  The
• 7:14
  top
• 7:15
  point
• 7:15
  of
• 7:15
  the
• 7:15
  triangle
• 7:16
  had
• 7:16
  reality,
• 7:17
  reality
• 7:18
  like
• 7:18
  okay,
• 7:19
  Dao
• 7:20
  in,
• 7:20
  in,
• 7:21
  in
• 7:21
  Daoism
• 7:22
  or
• 7:22
  heaven
• 7:23
  and
• 7:23
  Confucianism
• 7:24
  or
• 7:25
  maybe
• 7:25
  you
• 7:25
  could
• 7:25
  substitute
• 7:26
  with
• 7:26
  humanity
• 7:27
  and
• 7:27
  Confucianism.
• 7:28
  Then
• 7:28
  the
• 7:28
  base
• 7:29
  of
• 7:29
  the
• 7:29
  triangle
• 7:30
  had
• 7:31
  your
• 7:31
  practice
• 7:32
  and
• 7:32
  your
• 7:32
  theory,
• 7:33
  your
• 7:33
  words.
• 7:34
  This
• 7:34
  was
• 7:34
  his
• 7:34
  triangle
• 7:35
  of
• 7:35
  integral
• 7:35
  life
• 7:35
  philosophy.
• 7:36
  Nick,
• 7:36
  could
• 7:37
  you
• 7:37
  say
• 7:37
  something
• 7:38
  about
• 7:39
  maybe
• 7:39
  how
• 7:40
  you
• 7:40
  would
• 7:40
  look
• 7:40
  at
• 7:40
  that
• 7:41
  in
• 7:41
  terms
• 7:41
  of
• 7:41
  view
• 7:42
  and
• 7:42
  path
• 7:43
  and
• 7:43
  results?
• 7:45
  Well,
• 7:45
  that
• 7:45
  would
• 7:46
  be.
• 7:46
  So
• 7:46
  result
• 7:47
  in
• 7:47
  that
• 7:47
  formulation
• 7:48
  would
• 7:49
  be
• 7:49
  considered
• 7:50
  Dao
• 7:51
  or
• 7:52
  humanity,
• 7:53
  if
• 7:53
  you
• 7:53
  wanted
• 7:54
  to
• 7:54
  take
• 7:54
  a
• 7:54
  Confucian
• 7:54
  bent
• 7:54
  to
• 7:55
  it.
• 7:55
  So
• 7:55
  it's
• 7:56
  interesting
• 7:56
  because
• 7:57
  there's
• 7:57
  sort
• 7:57
  of
• 7:57
  a
• 7:58
  circular
• 7:58
  notion
• 7:58
  to
• 7:59
  it
• 7:59
  because
• 7:59
  ultimately
• 8:00
  within,
• 8:01
  certainly
• 8:01
  within
• 8:01
  Buddhism,
• 8:02
  the
• 8:03
  view
• 8:04
  creates
• 8:05
  the
• 8:05
  path
• 8:05
  which
• 8:06
  then
• 8:06
  creates
• 8:06
  the
• 8:06
  result.
• 8:06
  But
• 8:07
  from
• 8:07
  one
• 8:07
  another
• 8:07
  perspective
• 8:08
  the
• 8:08
  result
• 8:08
  is
• 8:09
  already
• 8:09
  self
• 8:09
  existent.
• 8:10
  Right.
• 8:10
  So
• 8:10
  like
• 8:11
  we
• 8:11
  all,
• 8:11
  we
• 8:11
  don't
• 8:11
  need
• 8:11
  to
• 8:12
  fabricate
• 8:12
  nature
• 8:13
  of
• 8:13
  mind
• 8:13
  or
• 8:14
  Buddha
• 8:14
  nature
• 8:15
  or
• 8:15
  however
• 8:15
  you're
• 8:16
  thinking
• 8:16
  or
• 8:16
  you
• 8:16
  know,
• 8:16
  emptiness
• 8:17
  or
• 8:17
  interconnectedness.
• 8:18
  Those
• 8:18
  are
• 8:18
  all
• 8:18
  terms
• 8:19
  for
• 8:19
  kind
• 8:19
  of
• 8:19
  the
• 8:20
  same
• 8:20
  thing
• 8:20
  in
• 8:20
  Buddhism,
• 8:21
  just
• 8:21
  kind
• 8:21
  of
• 8:21
  Described
• 8:22
  from
• 8:22
  different
• 8:22
  perspectives.
• 8:23
  And
• 8:23
  so
• 8:24
  the
• 8:24
  result
• 8:24
  is
• 8:24
  already
• 8:25
  pre.
• 8:25
  Existing.
• 8:26
  But
• 8:26
  from
• 8:26
  the
• 8:26
  point
• 8:26
  of
• 8:27
  view
• 8:27
  of
• 8:27
  the
• 8:27
  practitioner,
• 8:28
  there's
• 8:28
  no.
• 8:29
  You
• 8:29
  have
• 8:29
  to
• 8:29
  walk
• 8:29
  the
• 8:30
  path.
• 8:30
  Right.
• 8:30
  Even
• 8:30
  though
• 8:31
  you
• 8:31
  know
• 8:31
  from
• 8:31
  an
• 8:31
  outsider's
• 8:32
  perspective,
• 8:33
  an
• 8:33
  enlightened
• 8:33
  perspective,
• 8:34
  that
• 8:34
  result
• 8:34
  is
• 8:35
  already
• 8:35
  existing.
• 8:36
  So
• 8:36
  I
• 8:37
  think
• 8:37
  it
• 8:37
  goes
• 8:37
  very
• 8:37
  nicely
• 8:38
  when
• 8:38
  you're
• 8:38
  talking
• 8:38
  about
• 8:38
  reality
• 8:39
  that
• 8:40
  aligns
• 8:40
  with
• 8:40
  what
• 8:41
  the
• 8:41
  result
• 8:41
  would
• 8:41
  be
• 8:42
  because
• 8:42
  it's
• 8:42
  not
• 8:42
  something
• 8:42
  that's
• 8:43
  created
• 8:43
  or
• 8:43
  fabricated,
• 8:44
  it's
• 8:44
  something
• 8:44
  that's
• 8:45
  discovered
• 8:45
  as
• 8:45
  an
• 8:45
  already
• 8:46
  existing.
• 8:47
  Discovered.
• 8:47
  Yeah,
• 8:47
  I
• 8:47
  was
• 8:48
  thinking,
• 8:48
  oh,
• 8:48
  you
• 8:48
  have
• 8:48
  to
• 8:48
  come
• 8:49
  to
• 8:49
  the
• 8:49
  realization.
• 8:50
  But
• 8:50
  with.
• 8:50
  Yeah,
• 8:51
  yeah,
• 8:51
  exactly.
• 8:52
  With
• 8:52
  students
• 8:52
  and
• 8:52
  clients,
• 8:53
  it's
• 8:54
  assisting
• 8:54
  them
• 8:54
  to
• 8:55
  develop
• 8:55
  the
• 8:55
  view,
• 8:57
  be
• 8:57
  able
• 8:57
  to
• 8:57
  see
• 8:58
  the.
• 8:58
  Is
• 8:58
  that
• 8:58
  correct?
• 8:59
  Yeah,
• 9:00
  it's
• 9:00
  interesting.
• 9:01
  Like
• 9:02
  I
• 9:02
  would
• 9:02
  say
• 9:02
  all,
• 9:04
  all
• 9:05
  mistaken
• 9:06
  action
• 9:08
  comes
• 9:08
  from
• 9:08
  a
• 9:08
  lack
• 9:08
  of
• 9:09
  view.
• 9:09
  Right.
• 9:09
  So
• 9:10
  like
• 9:10
  if
• 9:10
  you
• 9:10
  are
• 9:10
  finding
• 9:11
  yourself
• 9:11
  on
• 9:11
  a
• 9:11
  path
• 9:12
  or
• 9:12
  if,
• 9:12
  if
• 9:13
  you
• 9:13
  want
• 9:13
  to
• 9:13
  say,
• 9:13
  if
• 9:13
  you're
• 9:13
  talking
• 9:14
  like
• 9:14
  more
• 9:14
  of
• 9:14
  a
• 9:14
  coaching
• 9:15
  perspective,
• 9:15
  it's
• 9:16
  like
• 9:16
  my,
• 9:16
  the
• 9:16
  patterns
• 9:17
  of
• 9:17
  behavior
• 9:17
  and
• 9:17
  belief
• 9:18
  that
• 9:18
  I
• 9:18
  have
• 9:18
  are
• 9:19
  creating
• 9:19
  outcomes
• 9:20
  that
• 9:20
  I
• 9:20
  don't
• 9:20
  necessarily
• 9:21
  want.
• 9:21
  And
• 9:22
  so,
• 9:22
  and
• 9:22
  then
• 9:22
  it's
• 9:22
  like,
• 9:22
  well,
• 9:23
  what
• 9:23
  other
• 9:23
  patterns
• 9:24
  and
• 9:24
  beliefs,
• 9:24
  what
• 9:25
  other
• 9:25
  beliefs
• 9:25
  and
• 9:25
  actions
• 9:26
  should
• 9:26
  I
• 9:26
  have?
• 9:27
  Because
• 9:27
  most
• 9:27
  people
• 9:27
  are
• 9:28
  so
• 9:28
  locked
• 9:28
  into
• 9:28
  their
• 9:28
  current
• 9:29
  pattern
• 9:29
  of
• 9:29
  beliefs
• 9:30
  and
• 9:30
  behavior
• 9:30
  that
• 9:30
  they
• 9:30
  don't
• 9:31
  see
• 9:31
  that
• 9:31
  there
• 9:31
  are
• 9:31
  alternatives.
• 9:32
  Right.
• 9:32
  They,
• 9:32
  they
• 9:32
  call
• 9:33
  it.
• 9:33
  We
• 9:33
  call
• 9:33
  it
• 9:34
  like
• 9:34
  reality.
• 9:35
  Right.
• 9:35
  Well,
• 9:35
  that's
• 9:35
  just
• 9:35
  reality.
• 9:36
  I'm
• 9:36
  just
• 9:36
  responding,
• 9:37
  you
• 9:37
  know,
• 9:37
  I
• 9:37
  mean,
• 9:37
  we've
• 9:37
  all
• 9:37
  had.
• 9:42
  You're
• 9:42
  right,
• 9:42
  exactly.
• 9:42
  So
• 9:43
  the
• 9:43
  first
• 9:43
  step
• 9:43
  would
• 9:43
  be
• 9:44
  just
• 9:44
  recognizing
• 9:45
  that
• 9:45
  actually
• 9:45
  that's
• 9:46
  a,
• 9:46
  that's
• 9:46
  a
• 9:46
  pattern
• 9:47
  of
• 9:47
  belief
• 9:47
  and
• 9:47
  behavior
• 9:47
  that
• 9:48
  I
• 9:48
  could
• 9:48
  potentially
• 9:49
  let
• 9:50
  go
• 9:50
  of
• 9:50
  or
• 9:50
  change
• 9:51
  or
• 9:51
  disrupt
• 9:51
  in
• 9:51
  some
• 9:51
  way.
• 9:52
  And
• 9:52
  then
• 9:52
  that's.
• 9:53
  So
• 9:53
  if
• 9:53
  we
• 9:53
  take
• 9:53
  like
• 9:53
  that
• 9:54
  base
• 9:54
  path
• 9:55
  fruition,
• 9:56
  that
• 9:56
  would
• 9:56
  be
• 9:57
  the,
• 9:58
  the
• 9:59
  foundation
• 9:59
  of
• 9:59
  it,
• 10:00
  right?
• 10:01
  How,
• 10:01
  how
• 10:02
  do
• 10:02
  you
• 10:02
  assist
• 10:02
  people
• 10:03
  in.
• 10:04
  I
• 10:04
  mean
• 10:04
  it's
• 10:05
  kind
• 10:05
  of
• 10:05
  like
• 10:05
  I've
• 10:05
  heard
• 10:06
  Alan
• 10:06
  Watts
• 10:06
  talk
• 10:07
  about,
• 10:08
  does
• 10:09
  a
• 10:09
  fish
• 10:09
  notice
• 10:09
  the
• 10:10
  water
• 10:10
  that
• 10:10
  it's
• 10:10
  in
• 10:12
  or
• 10:12
  do
• 10:12
  the
• 10:12
  birds
• 10:12
  notice
• 10:13
  the
• 10:13
  air?
• 10:13
  Or
• 10:14
  for
• 10:14
  us,
• 10:15
  do
• 10:15
  we
• 10:15
  notice.
• 10:15
  Mind,
• 10:16
  how
• 10:17
  do
• 10:17
  you
• 10:17
  assist
• 10:17
  people
• 10:18
  to
• 10:18
  that
• 10:19
  larger
• 10:19
  context?
• 10:21
  That's
• 10:21
  where
• 10:22
  the
• 10:22
  dialectics
• 10:23
  come
• 10:24
  in.
• 10:24
  Right.
• 10:24
  So
• 10:24
  like
• 10:24
  very
• 10:25
  much
• 10:25
  a
• 10:26
  kind
• 10:26
  of
• 10:26
  a
• 10:26
  Socratic
• 10:27
  method,
• 10:27
  so
• 10:28
  asking
• 10:28
  questions
• 10:28
  about
• 10:29
  it.
• 10:29
  So
• 10:29
  it's
• 10:29
  like,
• 10:29
  well,
• 10:30
  if
• 10:31
  there's
• 10:31
  some.
• 10:31
  So
• 10:32
  I
• 10:32
  always
• 10:32
  start
• 10:32
  with
• 10:32
  the.
• 10:33
  There's
• 10:34
  usually
• 10:34
  some
• 10:34
  situation
• 10:35
  or
• 10:35
  a
• 10:36
  result
• 10:36
  that
• 10:36
  they
• 10:36
  are
• 10:36
  not
• 10:36
  liking.
• 10:37
  Right.
• 10:37
  There's
• 10:37
  some
• 10:37
  outcome
• 10:38
  in
• 10:38
  their
• 10:38
  normal
• 10:38
  life.
• 10:39
  And
• 10:39
  so
• 10:39
  then
• 10:39
  the
• 10:39
  question
• 10:40
  is
• 10:40
  like,
• 10:40
  okay,
• 10:40
  well
• 10:41
  you
• 10:41
  don't
• 10:41
  like
• 10:42
  X
• 10:42
  outcome,
• 10:43
  then
• 10:44
  what
• 10:44
  are
• 10:44
  the.
• 10:44
  What
• 10:44
  are
• 10:45
  you
• 10:45
  telling
• 10:45
  yourself?
• 10:45
  What's
• 10:45
  the.
• 10:46
  I
• 10:46
  like
• 10:46
  to
• 10:46
  talk
• 10:47
  in
• 10:47
  terms
• 10:47
  of
• 10:47
  story
• 10:47
  and
• 10:47
  narrative.
• 10:48
  So
• 10:48
  I
• 10:48
  say,
• 10:48
  what's
• 10:49
  the
• 10:49
  story
• 10:49
  that
• 10:49
  you're
• 10:49
  telling
• 10:49
  yourself
• 10:50
  about
• 10:51
  that?
• 10:51
  Well,
• 10:51
  I
• 10:52
  had
• 10:52
  to
• 10:52
  do
• 10:52
  that.
• 10:52
  Okay,
• 10:53
  well
• 10:53
  why
• 10:53
  did
• 10:53
  you
• 10:53
  have
• 10:53
  to
• 10:53
  do
• 10:54
  that?
• 10:54
  Well,
• 10:54
  I
• 10:54
  had
• 10:54
  to
• 10:54
  do
• 10:54
  that
• 10:54
  because
• 10:55
  this
• 10:55
  person
• 10:55
  in
• 10:55
  the
• 10:55
  situation
• 10:56
  was
• 10:56
  the
• 10:56
  other
• 10:56
  way.
• 10:57
  Okay,
• 10:57
  cool.
• 10:57
  Yeah,
• 10:57
  you
• 10:57
  had
• 10:58
  to
• 10:58
  do
• 10:58
  that
• 10:58
  in
• 10:58
  these
• 10:59
  ways.
• 11:00
  What
• 11:00
  might
• 11:00
  somebody
• 11:01
  else
• 11:01
  have
• 11:01
  done
• 11:02
  in
• 11:02
  that
• 11:02
  situation?
• 11:03
  And
• 11:03
  then
• 11:04
  if
• 11:04
  they
• 11:04
  say
• 11:05
  everybody
• 11:05
  would
• 11:05
  have
• 11:06
  done
• 11:06
  the
• 11:06
  exact
• 11:06
  same
• 11:07
  thing
• 11:07
  in
• 11:07
  that
• 11:07
  exact
• 11:08
  same
• 11:08
  situation,
• 11:08
  there's
• 11:09
  no
• 11:09
  other
• 11:09
  outcome,
• 11:10
  then
• 11:10
  we
• 11:10
  can
• 11:10
  start.
• 11:11
  I
• 11:11
  can
• 11:11
  kind
• 11:11
  of
• 11:11
  unravel
• 11:12
  that
• 11:12
  a
• 11:12
  little
• 11:12
  differently.
• 11:13
  Most
• 11:13
  of
• 11:13
  the
• 11:13
  time,
• 11:13
  99%
• 11:14
  of
• 11:14
  the
• 11:14
  time
• 11:14
  they'll
• 11:14
  say,
• 11:14
  well,
• 11:15
  other
• 11:15
  people
• 11:15
  might
• 11:15
  have
• 11:15
  done
• 11:16
  this,
• 11:16
  they
• 11:16
  might
• 11:16
  have
• 11:16
  done
• 11:16
  that.
• 11:17
  And
• 11:17
  then
• 11:17
  usually
• 11:17
  what
• 11:18
  happens
• 11:18
  is
• 11:18
  people
• 11:18
  are
• 11:18
  very
• 11:18
  quick
• 11:19
  to
• 11:19
  say,
• 11:20
  oh,
• 11:20
  but
• 11:20
  you
• 11:20
  know,
• 11:21
  there's
• 11:21
  reasons
• 11:21
  why
• 11:21
  I
• 11:21
  didn't
• 11:22
  do
• 11:22
  that
• 11:22
  thing.
• 11:22
  And
• 11:23
  it's
• 11:23
  like,
• 11:23
  okay,
• 11:23
  yeah,
• 11:23
  let's
• 11:23
  just
• 11:24
  bracket
• 11:24
  that.
• 11:24
  So
• 11:24
  I
• 11:24
  use
• 11:25
  a
• 11:25
  lot
• 11:25
  of
• 11:25
  like
• 11:25
  phenomenological
• 11:26
  tools
• 11:26
  from
• 11:26
  psychology.
• 11:27
  So
• 11:27
  let's
• 11:27
  bracket
• 11:28
  that.
• 11:28
  We'll
• 11:28
  come
• 11:28
  back
• 11:29
  to
• 11:29
  it.
• 11:29
  I'm
• 11:29
  not
• 11:29
  saying
• 11:29
  that's
• 11:30
  wrong,
• 11:30
  but
• 11:30
  if
• 11:31
  we
• 11:31
  were
• 11:31
  that
• 11:31
  person,
• 11:32
  like
• 11:32
  how
• 11:32
  might
• 11:33
  somebody
• 11:33
  else.
• 11:34
  And
• 11:34
  sometimes
• 11:34
  like
• 11:35
  a
• 11:35
  really
• 11:35
  good
• 11:35
  way
• 11:35
  to
• 11:35
  shake
• 11:36
  it
• 11:36
  up
• 11:36
  is
• 11:36
  to
• 11:36
  use
• 11:37
  people
• 11:38
  that
• 11:38
  they
• 11:38
  don't
• 11:38
  necessarily
• 11:39
  admire,
• 11:39
  like
• 11:40
  not
• 11:40
  hero,
• 11:41
  not
• 11:41
  idealized
• 11:41
  and
• 11:42
  do
• 11:42
  the
• 11:42
  opposite.
• 11:42
  So
• 11:43
  like
• 11:43
  use
• 11:43
  a,
• 11:44
  like
• 11:44
  if
• 11:44
  you
• 11:44
  are
• 11:45
  very
• 11:46
  liberal,
• 11:46
  you
• 11:46
  then
• 11:46
  use
• 11:47
  Donald
• 11:47
  Trump,
• 11:47
  like
• 11:47
  what
• 11:48
  would
• 11:48
  Donald
• 11:48
  Trump
• 11:48
  have
• 11:48
  done?
• 11:49
  Or
• 11:50
  if
• 11:50
  you're
• 11:50
  very
• 11:50
  conservative,
• 11:51
  use
• 11:51
  like
• 11:51
  what
• 11:51
  would
• 11:51
  Biden
• 11:52
  do?
• 11:52
  And
• 11:52
  then,
• 11:52
  and
• 11:53
  people
• 11:53
  are
• 11:53
  like,
• 11:53
  they
• 11:53
  laugh
• 11:54
  exactly
• 11:54
  like
• 11:54
  that.
• 11:54
  And
• 11:54
  they're
• 11:55
  like,
• 11:55
  well,
• 11:55
  they
• 11:55
  would
• 11:55
  have
• 11:55
  done
• 11:55
  the
• 11:56
  worst
• 11:56
  thing
• 11:56
  possible
• 11:56
  thing.
• 11:57
  It's
• 11:57
  like,
• 11:57
  okay,
• 11:58
  so
• 11:58
  there's
• 11:58
  a
• 11:58
  range
• 11:58
  of
• 11:59
  choices
• 11:59
  about
• 11:59
  how
• 12:00
  one
• 12:00
  might
• 12:01
  respond
• 12:01
  to
• 12:01
  situations
• 12:02
  and
• 12:02
  those
• 12:02
  choices
• 12:03
  will
• 12:03
  then
• 12:03
  create
• 12:03
  different
• 12:03
  outcomes.
• 12:04
  So
• 12:04
  it
• 12:04
  kind
• 12:04
  of
• 12:05
  loosens.
• 12:05
  It's
• 12:05
  all
• 12:05
  about
• 12:06
  just
• 12:06
  like
• 12:06
  loosening
• 12:07
  things,
• 12:07
  loosening
• 12:08
  up
• 12:08
  the
• 12:08
  grip
• 12:08
  of
• 12:09
  so
• 12:09
  called
• 12:09
  reality.
• 12:10
  Because
• 12:10
  one
• 12:10
  of
• 12:10
  the
• 12:10
  things
• 12:11
  that
• 12:11
  I
• 12:11
  find
• 12:11
  very
• 12:12
  useful
• 12:12
  and
• 12:12
  very
• 12:12
  powerful
• 12:13
  is
• 12:14
  to
• 12:14
  assist
• 12:15
  people
• 12:15
  with
• 12:15
  a
• 12:15
  hypothetical.
• 12:17
  Yeah,
• 12:17
  well,
• 12:17
  what
• 12:18
  would
• 12:18
  it
• 12:18
  be
• 12:18
  like
• 12:18
  if.
• 12:19
  Yeah,
• 12:20
  but
• 12:20
  I
• 12:20
  can't.
• 12:20
  Well,
• 12:21
  but
• 12:21
  in
• 12:21
  order
• 12:21
  to
• 12:21
  process
• 12:22
  that,
• 12:22
  you
• 12:23
  just
• 12:23
  did.
• 12:23
  So
• 12:24
  what
• 12:24
  would
• 12:24
  it
• 12:25
  be
• 12:25
  like
• 12:25
  if
• 12:25
  we
• 12:26
  had
• 12:26
  to
• 12:27
  take
• 12:27
  a
• 12:27
  short
• 12:27
  break?
• 12:29
  I'm
• 12:30
  Anthony.
• 12:30
  Right.
• 12:30
  And
• 12:31
  I
• 12:31
  am
• 12:31
  your
• 12:31
  co
• 12:32
  host
• 12:32
  with
• 12:33
  Adam
• 12:34
  Dietz
• 12:35
  on
• 12:35
  the
• 12:35
  Living
• 12:35
  Conversation.
• 12:36
  And
• 12:38
  we
• 12:38
  are
• 12:38
  interviewing
• 12:39
  Nick.
• 12:39
  And
• 12:40
  how
• 12:40
  can
• 12:40
  people
• 12:40
  get
• 12:41
  a
• 12:41
  hold
• 12:41
  of
• 12:41
  you,
• 12:41
  Nick?
• 12:42
  They
• 12:42
  can
• 12:43
  go
• 12:43
  to
• 12:43
  nickeganphd.com
• 12:44
  or
• 12:45
  they
• 12:45
  can
• 12:45
  go
• 12:45
  to
• 12:46
  shiftleadership.group
• 12:48
  and
• 12:48
  it's
• 12:48
  e
• 12:48
  G
• 12:49
  A
• 12:49
  N
• 12:50
  E
• 12:50
  G
• 12:50
  A
• 12:50
  N.
• 12:51
  Correct.
• 12:51
  Okay.
• 12:51
  And
• 12:52
  Adam.
• 12:53
  Yeah,
• 12:53
  you
• 12:53
  can
• 12:53
  search
• 12:54
  me
• 12:54
  up
• 12:54
  on
• 12:54
  substack
• 12:55
  free
• 12:55
  substack
• 12:56
  the
• 12:56
  way
• 12:56
  between
• 12:57
  and
• 12:57
  you
• 12:58
  can
• 12:58
  also
• 12:58
  contact
• 12:58
  me
• 12:58
  directly.
• 12:59
  Deeds
• 12:59
  adam
• 13:00
  Gmail.com.
• 13:01
  Great.
• 13:02
  Well,
• 13:02
  we're
• 13:02
  going
• 13:02
  to
• 13:02
  take
• 13:02
  a
• 13:02
  short
• 13:03
  break
• 13:03
  and
• 13:03
  be
• 13:03
  right
• 13:03
  back,
• 13:04
  so
• 13:04
  stay
• 13:04
  tuned.
• 13:08
  Foreign.
• 13:19
  I'm
• 13:19
  Anthony
• 13:20
  Wright
• 13:20
  and
• 13:20
  I'm
• 13:20
  your
• 13:20
  host
• 13:21
  today
• 13:21
  on
• 13:21
  the
• 13:22
  Living
• 13:22
  Conversation
• 13:23
  with
• 13:23
  my
• 13:24
  co
• 13:24
  host,
• 13:25
  Adam
• 13:26
  ds
• 13:26
  And
• 13:26
  we
• 13:27
  are
• 13:27
  interviewing
• 13:28
  our
• 13:28
  guest,
• 13:28
  Nick
• 13:29
  Egan.
• 13:29
  And
• 13:30
  before
• 13:30
  the
• 13:30
  break,
• 13:31
  we
• 13:31
  were
• 13:31
  talking
• 13:32
  about
• 13:32
  how
• 13:32
  to
• 13:33
  assist
• 13:33
  people
• 13:34
  in
• 13:35
  finding
• 13:36
  a
• 13:36
  way
• 13:36
  out
• 13:37
  of
• 13:37
  their
• 13:38
  habitual
• 13:39
  mind.
• 13:39
  And
• 13:39
  I
• 13:39
  suggested
• 13:41
  the
• 13:41
  hypothetical
• 13:41
  what
• 13:42
  would
• 13:42
  it
• 13:42
  be
• 13:42
  like?
• 13:43
  So
• 13:44
  in
• 13:44
  order
• 13:45
  to
• 13:45
  process
• 13:45
  that,
• 13:46
  you
• 13:46
  have
• 13:46
  to
• 13:47
  imagine
• 13:47
  doing
• 13:47
  it.
• 13:48
  But
• 13:49
  do
• 13:49
  you
• 13:49
  have
• 13:49
  any
• 13:49
  thoughts
• 13:51
  about
• 13:52
  assisting
• 13:53
  people
• 13:53
  like
• 13:53
  that?
• 13:53
  Adam
• 13:55
  it's
• 13:56
  very
• 13:56
  interesting
• 13:57
  that
• 13:57
  you
• 13:58
  mentioned
• 13:58
  that,
• 13:58
  because
• 13:58
  the
• 13:58
  first
• 13:58
  thing
• 13:59
  that
• 13:59
  comes
• 13:59
  to
• 13:59
  mind
• 13:59
  is
• 13:59
  that,
• 14:00
  is
• 14:00
  that,
• 14:02
  you
• 14:02
  know,
• 14:02
  especially
• 14:02
  when
• 14:02
  we
• 14:02
  were
• 14:02
  in
• 14:03
  the
• 14:03
  classroom,
• 14:03
  when
• 14:04
  we
• 14:04
  still
• 14:04
  had
• 14:04
  teaching
• 14:05
  jobs,
• 14:08
  when
• 14:08
  a
• 14:08
  student
• 14:08
  would
• 14:09
  come
• 14:09
  up
• 14:09
  and
• 14:09
  ask
• 14:09
  something,
• 14:11
  you,
• 14:11
  you
• 14:11
  don't
• 14:11
  know,
• 14:12
  for
• 14:12
  all
• 14:12
  you
• 14:13
  know,
• 14:13
  they're
• 14:13
  enlightened.
• 14:14
  Exactly.
• 14:15
  So
• 14:15
  you
• 14:15
  start
• 14:16
  there
• 14:16
  and,
• 14:17
  and
• 14:17
  you
• 14:18
  don't
• 14:18
  know
• 14:18
  where
• 14:19
  they
• 14:19
  want
• 14:19
  to
• 14:20
  go.
• 14:20
  You
• 14:20
  don't
• 14:20
  know
• 14:20
  where
• 14:20
  they've
• 14:21
  been.
• 14:22
  So
• 14:22
  it's
• 14:22
  really
• 14:22
  a
• 14:22
  blank
• 14:23
  slate
• 14:23
  and
• 14:23
  you
• 14:23
  kind
• 14:24
  of
• 14:24
  have
• 14:24
  to,
• 14:24
  I
• 14:24
  think
• 14:24
  that's
• 14:25
  where
• 14:25
  Zen
• 14:25
  comes
• 14:25
  in,
• 14:26
  where
• 14:26
  it's
• 14:27
  just
• 14:27
  moment
• 14:27
  to
• 14:28
  moment.
• 14:29
  How
• 14:30
  can
• 14:30
  we
• 14:30
  together
• 14:30
  go
• 14:31
  to
• 14:31
  the
• 14:31
  highest
• 14:31
  level?
• 14:33
  Huang
• 14:33
  Nang
• 14:33
  talks
• 14:34
  about
• 14:34
  this.
• 14:34
  You
• 14:34
  know,
• 14:34
  when,
• 14:35
  when
• 14:35
  a
• 14:35
  student
• 14:35
  comes
• 14:35
  to
• 14:36
  Hui
• 14:36
  Nang,
• 14:36
  he
• 14:36
  says
• 14:36
  if
• 14:37
  they
• 14:37
  ask
• 14:37
  something
• 14:38
  very
• 14:38
  lofty
• 14:39
  with
• 14:40
  the
• 14:40
  most
• 14:40
  mundane
• 14:40
  thing,
• 14:41
  if
• 14:41
  they
• 14:41
  ask
• 14:42
  something
• 14:42
  very
• 14:42
  mundane,
• 14:42
  then
• 14:43
  he'll
• 14:43
  answer
• 14:43
  something
• 14:43
  very
• 14:44
  lofty.
• 14:44
  So
• 14:45
  in
• 14:45
  a
• 14:45
  sense,
• 14:45
  there's
• 14:45
  the
• 14:46
  middle
• 14:46
  way
• 14:46
  in
• 14:46
  practice
• 14:47
  there,
• 14:47
  where
• 14:47
  you're,
• 14:48
  you're
• 14:48
  helping
• 14:49
  people
• 14:49
  balance
• 14:49
  out
• 14:50
  and
• 14:50
  helping
• 14:50
  people
• 14:50
  kind
• 14:51
  of
• 14:51
  snap
• 14:52
  out
• 14:52
  of
• 14:52
  it.
• 14:52
  So
• 14:52
  the
• 14:52
  first,
• 14:53
  you
• 14:53
  know,
• 14:53
  what
• 14:53
  really
• 14:54
  strongly
• 14:54
  comes
• 14:54
  to
• 14:54
  mind
• 14:55
  when
• 14:55
  you're
• 14:56
  talking
• 14:56
  about
• 14:56
  helping
• 14:56
  people
• 14:56
  pop
• 14:57
  out
• 14:57
  of
• 14:57
  these
• 14:57
  patterns
• 14:58
  is
• 14:58
  I
• 14:58
  think
• 14:58
  Zen
• 14:59
  is
• 15:01
  the
• 15:01
  ultimate
• 15:02
  refined
• 15:03
  practice
• 15:03
  for
• 15:04
  this.
• 15:04
  They
• 15:04
  take
• 15:04
  all
• 15:05
  skillful
• 15:05
  means
• 15:05
  they
• 15:06
  could
• 15:06
  possibly
• 15:06
  take
• 15:07
  and
• 15:07
  try
• 15:07
  and
• 15:07
  help
• 15:07
  people
• 15:08
  pop
• 15:08
  out
• 15:08
  of
• 15:08
  their
• 15:08
  mind,
• 15:09
  so
• 15:09
  to
• 15:09
  speak.
• 15:10
  But
• 15:10
  I
• 15:10
  think
• 15:10
  that
• 15:11
  the
• 15:11
  other
• 15:12
  beautiful
• 15:13
  element
• 15:13
  that
• 15:13
  is
• 15:14
  in,
• 15:15
  exemplified
• 15:16
  in
• 15:16
  Zen
• 15:17
  is
• 15:17
  that
• 15:17
  you,
• 15:18
  it's
• 15:18
  every
• 15:18
  moment.
• 15:19
  It's
• 15:19
  every
• 15:19
  moment,
• 15:20
  and
• 15:20
  any
• 15:20
  person
• 15:21
  that's
• 15:21
  coming
• 15:21
  up
• 15:21
  to
• 15:21
  you
• 15:21
  in
• 15:22
  that
• 15:22
  moment
• 15:22
  could
• 15:22
  be
• 15:22
  enlightened.
• 15:23
  In
• 15:23
  the
• 15:23
  next
• 15:24
  moment,
• 15:24
  they
• 15:24
  could
• 15:24
  not
• 15:25
  be
• 15:25
  enlightened.
• 15:25
  Hui
• 15:26
  Nang
• 15:26
  also
• 15:26
  said
• 15:26
  that
• 15:27
  when,
• 15:27
  when
• 15:28
  you
• 15:28
  know,
• 15:28
  in,
• 15:28
  in
• 15:28
  one
• 15:29
  moment,
• 15:29
  your
• 15:29
  mind
• 15:29
  can
• 15:30
  go
• 15:30
  to
• 15:30
  the
• 15:30
  highest
• 15:30
  level
• 15:31
  and
• 15:31
  be
• 15:31
  enlightened.
• 15:31
  In
• 15:32
  the
• 15:32
  next
• 15:32
  moment,
• 15:32
  your
• 15:32
  mind
• 15:33
  can
• 15:33
  go
• 15:33
  into
• 15:33
  the
• 15:33
  lowest
• 15:34
  hell.
• 15:35
  So
• 15:35
  when
• 15:36
  anyone's
• 15:36
  coming
• 15:36
  up,
• 15:37
  it's,
• 15:37
  it's
• 15:38
  so
• 15:38
  moment
• 15:38
  to
• 15:38
  moment.
• 15:39
  I
• 15:39
  don't
• 15:39
  mean
• 15:39
  to
• 15:39
  be
• 15:40
  Cliche,
• 15:40
  like
• 15:40
  be
• 15:40
  in
• 15:40
  the
• 15:41
  moment
• 15:41
  type
• 15:41
  of
• 15:41
  thing.
• 15:41
  But
• 15:41
  when
• 15:42
  you're
• 15:42
  hap.
• 15:42
  These
• 15:43
  are
• 15:43
  in
• 15:43
  the
• 15:43
  Zen
• 15:44
  tradition.
• 15:44
  This
• 15:44
  is
• 15:45
  very
• 15:45
  serious
• 15:45
  business
• 15:46
  in
• 15:46
  some
• 15:47
  ways.
• 15:47
  In
• 15:47
  some
• 15:47
  ways,
• 15:48
  when
• 15:48
  a
• 15:48
  student
• 15:48
  comes
• 15:48
  to
• 15:49
  a
• 15:49
  teacher
• 15:49
  and
• 15:49
  asks
• 15:49
  a
• 15:49
  certain
• 15:50
  question,
• 15:50
  then
• 15:50
  it's
• 15:51
  like
• 15:51
  all
• 15:51
  time
• 15:51
  and
• 15:51
  space
• 15:52
  just
• 15:52
  freezes.
• 15:53
  And
• 15:53
  they
• 15:53
  have
• 15:53
  this
• 15:54
  interaction
• 15:55
  and
• 15:55
  they
• 15:55
  both
• 15:55
  know
• 15:56
  we're
• 15:56
  speaking
• 15:56
  in
• 15:56
  a
• 15:56
  light
• 15:57
  language
• 15:57
  right
• 15:57
  now.
• 15:58
  This
• 15:58
  is
• 15:58
  speaking
• 15:59
  of
• 15:59
  Socrates.
• 16:00
  This
• 16:00
  is
• 16:01
  the
• 16:01
  most
• 16:01
  critical
• 16:01
  thing
• 16:02
  that
• 16:02
  could
• 16:02
  possibly
• 16:02
  happen
• 16:03
  in
• 16:03
  the
• 16:03
  universe
• 16:03
  right
• 16:03
  now
• 16:04
  between
• 16:04
  me
• 16:04
  and
• 16:05
  this
• 16:05
  student
• 16:06
  or
• 16:06
  between
• 16:06
  me
• 16:07
  and
• 16:07
  my
• 16:07
  mentor.
• 16:08
  And
• 16:08
  if
• 16:09
  I
• 16:09
  can
• 16:09
  really
• 16:10
  lock
• 16:10
  in,
• 16:10
  I
• 16:10
  can
• 16:11
  really
• 16:12
  let
• 16:12
  my
• 16:12
  mind
• 16:13
  be
• 16:13
  completely
• 16:14
  as
• 16:14
  high
• 16:14
  as
• 16:15
  level
• 16:15
  as
• 16:15
  it
• 16:15
  can
• 16:15
  right
• 16:16
  then,
• 16:16
  then
• 16:16
  I
• 16:17
  am
• 16:17
  just
• 16:18
  doing
• 16:19
  the
• 16:19
  most
• 16:19
  important
• 16:19
  thing
• 16:20
  I
• 16:20
  could
• 16:20
  do
• 16:20
  as
• 16:20
  a
• 16:20
  human
• 16:20
  being.
• 16:21
  I'm
• 16:21
  uniting
• 16:22
  all
• 16:22
  time
• 16:22
  and
• 16:23
  space
• 16:23
  in
• 16:23
  my
• 16:23
  own
• 16:23
  mind.
• 16:24
  And
• 16:24
  so
• 16:25
  I
• 16:25
  think
• 16:25
  Zen,
• 16:26
  give
• 16:26
  us
• 16:26
  this
• 16:27
  example
• 16:27
  of
• 16:28
  time
• 16:29
  and
• 16:29
  time
• 16:29
  again
• 16:29
  in
• 16:29
  colons
• 16:30
  and
• 16:30
  different
• 16:30
  interactions.
• 16:31
  Okay,
• 16:32
  stuff's
• 16:33
  about
• 16:33
  to
• 16:33
  get
• 16:33
  real.
• 16:34
  Let's
• 16:34
  lock
• 16:34
  in.
• 16:35
  Let's
• 16:35
  have
• 16:35
  this
• 16:35
  interaction
• 16:36
  where
• 16:36
  we.
• 16:37
  We
• 16:37
  try
• 16:37
  to
• 16:38
  go
• 16:38
  to
• 16:38
  the
• 16:38
  highest
• 16:38
  level
• 16:38
  together,
• 16:39
  so
• 16:39
  to
• 16:39
  speak.
• 16:40
  You
• 16:40
  know,
• 16:40
  Chongta
• 16:41
  also
• 16:41
  talked
• 16:42
  about
• 16:42
  forgetting
• 16:42
  the
• 16:42
  self.
• 16:43
  And
• 16:44
  I
• 16:44
  look
• 16:44
  at
• 16:44
  that
• 16:44
  and,
• 16:45
  you
• 16:45
  know,
• 16:46
  bring
• 16:46
  in
• 16:46
  as
• 16:47
  a
• 16:47
  parallel
• 16:47
  the
• 16:47
  work
• 16:48
  of
• 16:48
  Mihaly
• 16:48
  Csikszentmihalyi
• 16:49
  in
• 16:50
  his
• 16:50
  talk
• 16:50
  about
• 16:51
  flow.
• 16:52
  But
• 16:52
  I'm
• 16:53
  curious,
• 16:53
  Nick,
• 16:54
  about,
• 16:55
  as
• 16:55
  being
• 16:55
  a
• 16:56
  student
• 16:56
  of
• 16:56
  Tibetan
• 16:57
  Buddhism,
• 16:57
  is
• 16:58
  there
• 16:59
  a
• 16:59
  modality
• 17:00
  of
• 17:00
  this
• 17:01
  same
• 17:01
  sort
• 17:01
  of
• 17:01
  thing
• 17:01
  about
• 17:02
  where
• 17:03
  one
• 17:03
  forgets
• 17:04
  about
• 17:04
  the
• 17:04
  self
• 17:04
  or
• 17:05
  talk
• 17:05
  a
• 17:05
  little
• 17:05
  bit
• 17:05
  about
• 17:06
  the
• 17:07
  approach
• 17:08
  from
• 17:08
  Tibetan
• 17:08
  Buddhism?
• 17:10
  Yeah,
• 17:10
  it's
• 17:10
  interesting.
• 17:11
  I
• 17:11
  mean,
• 17:11
  there's
• 17:11
  so
• 17:11
  much
• 17:11
  there.
• 17:12
  First,
• 17:13
  Adam,
• 17:13
  you
• 17:13
  reminded
• 17:14
  me
• 17:14
  of.
• 17:14
  There's
• 17:15
  a
• 17:15
  great
• 17:15
  story
• 17:16
  with
• 17:16
  Kali
• 17:17
  Rinpoche,
• 17:17
  who
• 17:18
  his
• 17:18
  previous
• 17:18
  incarnation,
• 17:19
  he's
• 17:19
  now
• 17:19
  a
• 17:20
  young
• 17:20
  incarnation.
• 17:21
  And
• 17:21
  he
• 17:21
  was
• 17:22
  a
• 17:22
  relatively
• 17:22
  well
• 17:22
  known
• 17:23
  Tibetan
• 17:23
  teacher.
• 17:24
  And
• 17:24
  he,
• 17:24
  I
• 17:24
  think,
• 17:24
  was
• 17:25
  in
• 17:25
  the
• 17:25
  Bay
• 17:25
  Area,
• 17:25
  actually.
• 17:26
  He
• 17:26
  met
• 17:26
  with
• 17:27
  some
• 17:27
  Japanese
• 17:28
  Rinzai
• 17:29
  teacher.
• 17:29
  And
• 17:29
  the
• 17:29
  Rinzai
• 17:30
  teacher
• 17:30
  was
• 17:30
  there
• 17:30
  and
• 17:31
  picked
• 17:31
  up
• 17:32
  an
• 17:32
  orange
• 17:32
  and
• 17:33
  said,
• 17:33
  what
• 17:34
  is
• 17:34
  this?
• 17:35
  And
• 17:35
  through
• 17:35
  a
• 17:35
  translator.
• 17:36
  And
• 17:36
  Kaliminpoche
• 17:37
  just
• 17:37
  looked
• 17:37
  at
• 17:37
  him
• 17:37
  and
• 17:37
  then
• 17:37
  he
• 17:38
  said
• 17:38
  again,
• 17:38
  what
• 17:38
  is
• 17:38
  this?
• 17:39
  You
• 17:39
  know,
• 17:39
  doing
• 17:39
  like
• 17:39
  the
• 17:40
  Zen
• 17:40
  thing,
• 17:40
  right?
• 17:40
  And
• 17:41
  Kalinpoche.
• 17:42
  And
• 17:42
  so
• 17:42
  he
• 17:42
  did
• 17:42
  it
• 17:42
  a
• 17:42
  third
• 17:42
  time.
• 17:42
  And
• 17:42
  then
• 17:43
  Kali
• 17:43
  Rinpoche
• 17:43
  turned
• 17:44
  to
• 17:44
  his
• 17:44
  translator
• 17:44
  and
• 17:44
  he
• 17:45
  said,
• 17:45
  do
• 17:45
  they
• 17:45
  not
• 17:45
  have
• 17:45
  oranges
• 17:46
  in
• 17:46
  Japan?
• 17:50
  So
• 17:50
  it's
• 17:50
  like
• 17:50
  very.
• 17:51
  That
• 17:52
  the
• 17:53
  method
• 17:53
  of
• 17:54
  like,
• 17:54
  answering
• 17:54
  from
• 17:55
  the
• 17:55
  ultimate
• 17:56
  when
• 17:56
  asked
• 17:56
  the
• 17:57
  relative,
• 17:57
  and
• 17:57
  answering
• 17:58
  from
• 17:58
  the
• 17:58
  relative
• 17:58
  when
• 17:58
  asked
• 17:59
  the
• 17:59
  ultimate,
• 18:00
  it
• 18:00
  is
• 18:00
  a
• 18:00
  very
• 18:00
  profound
• 18:02
  tool,
• 18:03
  especially
• 18:03
  when
• 18:05
  I
• 18:05
  think
• 18:05
  the
• 18:05
  student
• 18:05
  is
• 18:05
  ready
• 18:06
  for
• 18:06
  it.
• 18:06
  And
• 18:06
  I'll
• 18:06
  just.
• 18:06
  I'll
• 18:06
  share
• 18:07
  like
• 18:07
  a
• 18:07
  brief.
• 18:07
  So
• 18:08
  I
• 18:08
  actually
• 18:08
  studied
• 18:08
  Zen
• 18:09
  pretty
• 18:09
  seriously.
• 18:09
  For
• 18:09
  three
• 18:10
  years
• 18:10
  before
• 18:10
  I
• 18:10
  migrated
• 18:11
  over
• 18:11
  to
• 18:11
  the
• 18:11
  Tibetan
• 18:12
  side.
• 18:12
  Yeah.
• 18:13
  And
• 18:13
  one
• 18:13
  of
• 18:14
  the
• 18:14
  most
• 18:14
  profound
• 18:15
  experiences
• 18:16
  that
• 18:16
  I
• 18:16
  had
• 18:16
  was
• 18:16
  actually
• 18:17
  in
• 18:17
  the
• 18:17
  lunchroom
• 18:18
  in
• 18:18
  the
• 18:18
  temple
• 18:18
  there.
• 18:19
  And
• 18:19
  it
• 18:20
  was
• 18:20
  a
• 18:20
  casual
• 18:21
  time.
• 18:21
  And
• 18:22
  so
• 18:22
  I
• 18:22
  was
• 18:22
  able
• 18:23
  to
• 18:23
  ask
• 18:23
  the
• 18:23
  Roshi
• 18:24
  a
• 18:24
  question.
• 18:25
  Very.
• 18:26
  He's
• 18:26
  very
• 18:26
  powerful,
• 18:27
  Roshi.
• 18:27
  Very.
• 18:28
  I
• 18:28
  would
• 18:28
  consider
• 18:29
  him
• 18:29
  absolutely
• 18:29
  a
• 18:29
  Bodhisattva.
• 18:30
  And
• 18:30
  I
• 18:31
  said
• 18:31
  to
• 18:31
  him,
• 18:31
  I
• 18:32
  had
• 18:32
  actually
• 18:32
  been
• 18:32
  studying
• 18:32
  at
• 18:32
  that
• 18:33
  time
• 18:33
  for
• 18:33
  a
• 18:33
  fair
• 18:33
  amount.
• 18:34
  And
• 18:35
  I
• 18:35
  said
• 18:35
  along
• 18:36
  the
• 18:36
  lines
• 18:36
  of,
• 18:36
  like,
• 18:36
  hey.
• 18:37
  Because
• 18:37
  in
• 18:37
  my
• 18:37
  mind,
• 18:37
  I
• 18:38
  thought,
• 18:38
  like,
• 18:38
  well,
• 18:38
  when
• 18:38
  you
• 18:38
  die,
• 18:39
  if
• 18:39
  you're
• 18:39
  enlightened,
• 18:40
  you
• 18:40
  go
• 18:40
  to
• 18:40
  Nirvana,
• 18:41
  right?
• 18:41
  You
• 18:41
  go
• 18:41
  to
• 18:41
  a
• 18:41
  place
• 18:42
  and.
• 18:42
  But
• 18:42
  if
• 18:42
  you
• 18:43
  aren't
• 18:43
  enlightened,
• 18:44
  then
• 18:44
  you
• 18:44
  come
• 18:44
  back,
• 18:44
  but
• 18:44
  then
• 18:44
  you
• 18:44
  have
• 18:45
  to
• 18:45
  be
• 18:45
  a
• 18:45
  Bodhisattva,
• 18:46
  which
• 18:46
  is
• 18:46
  like
• 18:46
  a
• 18:46
  person
• 18:46
  that
• 18:47
  commits
• 18:47
  to
• 18:47
  coming
• 18:47
  back
• 18:47
  to
• 18:48
  save
• 18:48
  the
• 18:48
  world.
• 18:48
  So
• 18:48
  I
• 18:48
  asked
• 18:49
  him,
• 18:49
  I
• 18:49
  said,
• 18:49
  hey,
• 18:49
  Roshi,
• 18:50
  when
• 18:50
  you
• 18:50
  die,
• 18:51
  you
• 18:51
  personally,
• 18:52
  are
• 18:53
  you
• 18:53
  going
• 18:53
  to
• 18:53
  go
• 18:53
  to
• 18:53
  Nirvana?
• 18:54
  Are
• 18:54
  you
• 18:54
  going
• 18:54
  to
• 18:54
  come
• 18:55
  back,
• 18:55
  you
• 18:55
  know,
• 18:55
  know,
• 18:55
  and
• 18:56
  help
• 18:56
  us?
• 18:56
  And
• 18:56
  I
• 18:56
  meant
• 18:57
  it.
• 18:57
  I
• 18:57
  was.
• 18:57
  I
• 18:58
  was
• 18:58
  serious,
• 18:58
  right?
• 18:58
  And
• 18:58
  it
• 18:58
  was
• 18:58
  kind
• 18:59
  of
• 18:59
  like
• 18:59
  a
• 18:59
  digging
• 19:00
  question.
• 19:00
  And
• 19:01
  he
• 19:01
  looked
• 19:01
  at
• 19:01
  me
• 19:01
  and
• 19:01
  he
• 19:02
  had
• 19:02
  this
• 19:02
  deep,
• 19:02
  resonant
• 19:02
  voice,
• 19:03
  and
• 19:03
  he
• 19:03
  said,
• 19:03
  this
• 19:04
  is
• 19:04
  Nirvana.
• 19:05
  And
• 19:06
  I
• 19:06
  was
• 19:06
  like,
• 19:06
  wow,
• 19:07
  that.
• 19:07
  It
• 19:08
  literally
• 19:08
  shook
• 19:09
  me
• 19:09
  for
• 19:09
  a
• 19:09
  minute.
• 19:09
  I
• 19:10
  mean,
• 19:10
  I
• 19:10
  won't
• 19:10
  go
• 19:10
  so
• 19:10
  far
• 19:10
  as
• 19:10
  to
• 19:10
  say,
• 19:11
  like,
• 19:11
  I
• 19:11
  had
• 19:11
  a
• 19:11
  Ken
• 19:11
  show
• 19:11
  or
• 19:11
  anything,
• 19:12
  but
• 19:12
  it
• 19:13
  definitely
• 19:13
  shook
• 19:13
  me
• 19:14
  and
• 19:14
  made
• 19:15
  me
• 19:16
  stop
• 19:17
  ordinary
• 19:17
  thinking
• 19:17
  at
• 19:18
  that
• 19:18
  moment
• 19:18
  and
• 19:18
  have
• 19:19
  a
• 19:19
  deeper
• 19:20
  insight
• 19:20
  that
• 19:20
  stuck
• 19:20
  with
• 19:20
  me
• 19:20
  even
• 19:21
  to
• 19:21
  this
• 19:21
  day,
• 19:21
  you
• 19:21
  know,
• 19:21
  20,
• 19:22
  25
• 19:22
  plus
• 19:22
  years
• 19:23
  later.
• 19:23
  Yeah,
• 19:23
  well
• 19:23
  done.
• 19:24
  Yeah,
• 19:25
  he's.
• 19:25
  He's
• 19:25
  an
• 19:25
  amazing
• 19:26
  guy.
• 19:26
  Anyway,
• 19:27
  they
• 19:27
  do
• 19:28
  in
• 19:28
  the
• 19:29
  closest.
• 19:30
  So
• 19:31
  within
• 19:31
  Tibetan
• 19:31
  Buddhism,
• 19:32
  there's
• 19:32
  different
• 19:32
  kinds
• 19:33
  of
• 19:34
  vehicles,
• 19:35
  right?
• 19:35
  So
• 19:35
  there's
• 19:35
  like,
• 19:36
  Sahaja
• 19:36
  Yana,
• 19:36
  there's
• 19:37
  Zogchen,
• 19:37
  Mahamudra,
• 19:38
  there's
• 19:38
  all
• 19:38
  these
• 19:38
  different.
• 19:39
  Tibetan
• 19:40
  Buddhism
• 19:40
  suffers
• 19:40
  from,
• 19:41
  like,
• 19:41
  an
• 19:41
  embarrassment
• 19:41
  of
• 19:41
  riches
• 19:42
  because
• 19:42
  it
• 19:43
  was
• 19:43
  the
• 19:43
  late.
• 19:43
  It
• 19:43
  was
• 19:43
  the
• 19:44
  last
• 19:44
  transmission
• 19:45
  out
• 19:45
  of.
• 19:46
  Out
• 19:46
  of
• 19:46
  India
• 19:46
  to
• 19:47
  go
• 19:47
  to
• 19:48
  another
• 19:48
  country.
• 19:48
  Right
• 19:48
  before
• 19:49
  then.
• 19:49
  The
• 19:49
  Muslim
• 19:50
  invaders
• 19:50
  came
• 19:50
  and
• 19:50
  kind
• 19:50
  of
• 19:51
  mostly
• 19:51
  destroyed
• 19:51
  Buddhism
• 19:52
  at
• 19:52
  that
• 19:52
  time.
• 19:53
  And
• 19:53
  so
• 19:53
  because
• 19:53
  of
• 19:54
  that,
• 19:54
  it
• 19:54
  contained
• 19:55
  the
• 19:55
  sum
• 19:55
  total
• 19:56
  of
• 19:56
  all
• 19:56
  of
• 19:56
  the
• 19:57
  practices
• 19:57
  that
• 19:57
  were
• 19:57
  in
• 19:57
  vogue
• 19:58
  at
• 19:58
  that
• 19:58
  time.
• 19:58
  So
• 19:58
  everything
• 19:59
  from
• 19:59
  like,
• 19:59
  Vajrayana,
• 20:00
  like
• 20:00
  tantric
• 20:00
  stuff,
• 20:01
  you
• 20:01
  know,
• 20:01
  body
• 20:01
  things
• 20:01
  and
• 20:02
  working
• 20:03
  with
• 20:03
  energies
• 20:03
  and
• 20:04
  all
• 20:04
  of
• 20:04
  that.
• 20:04
  But
• 20:04
  one
• 20:05
  of
• 20:05
  the
• 20:05
  crown
• 20:05
  jewels
• 20:06
  was
• 20:06
  called
• 20:06
  Dzogchen.
• 20:07
  And
• 20:07
  then
• 20:07
  also
• 20:07
  Mahamudra,
• 20:08
  through
• 20:08
  different.
• 20:09
  Two
• 20:09
  different
• 20:09
  transmissions.
• 20:10
  And
• 20:10
  there
• 20:10
  was
• 20:10
  the
• 20:10
  shamanic
• 20:11
  tradition
• 20:11
  also
• 20:11
  that
• 20:11
  was
• 20:12
  melded
• 20:12
  with
• 20:12
  that,
• 20:12
  right?
• 20:13
  Yeah,
• 20:13
  the
• 20:14
  shamanic
• 20:14
  tradition
• 20:14
  was
• 20:15
  existing,
• 20:15
  preexisting
• 20:16
  in
• 20:16
  Tibet
• 20:17
  and
• 20:17
  then
• 20:18
  kind
• 20:18
  of
• 20:18
  melded
• 20:19
  very
• 20:19
  nicely.
• 20:19
  I
• 20:19
  would
• 20:19
  make
• 20:20
  the
• 20:20
  argument
• 20:20
  that
• 20:20
  like
• 20:21
  late
• 20:21
  tantra
• 20:22
  in
• 20:22
  India
• 20:23
  has
• 20:23
  all
• 20:23
  of
• 20:24
  the
• 20:24
  hallmarks
• 20:24
  of
• 20:24
  the
• 20:24
  so
• 20:25
  called
• 20:25
  shamanic
• 20:25
  tradition.
• 20:26
  You
• 20:26
  know,
• 20:26
  there's,
• 20:26
  there's
• 20:27
  out
• 20:27
  of
• 20:27
  body
• 20:27
  experiences,
• 20:28
  there's
• 20:28
  healings,
• 20:29
  there's
• 20:29
  rhythmic
• 20:30
  things,
• 20:30
  there's,
• 20:31
  you
• 20:31
  know,
• 20:31
  prayers,
• 20:32
  there's
• 20:32
  a
• 20:32
  connection
• 20:32
  with
• 20:33
  spirit
• 20:33
  beings
• 20:34
  that
• 20:34
  are
• 20:34
  considered
• 20:35
  nature
• 20:35
  spirit.
• 20:35
  So.
• 20:36
  But
• 20:36
  what
• 20:37
  you're
• 20:37
  asking
• 20:37
  is
• 20:37
  about
• 20:37
  is
• 20:38
  the,
• 20:39
  the
• 20:39
  kind
• 20:39
  of
• 20:39
  non
• 20:39
  dual
• 20:40
  and
• 20:40
  what
• 20:40
  the,
• 20:41
  what
• 20:41
  the.
• 20:42
  What
• 20:42
  is
• 20:42
  similar
• 20:42
  to
• 20:42
  that
• 20:43
  koan,
• 20:43
  what
• 20:43
  Adam
• 20:44
  was
• 20:44
  talking
• 20:44
  about,
• 20:44
  or
• 20:45
  that
• 20:45
  kind
• 20:45
  of
• 20:45
  answer
• 20:45
  that
• 20:45
  rattles
• 20:46
  you
• 20:46
  to
• 20:46
  your
• 20:46
  core
• 20:46
  and
• 20:47
  exposes
• 20:47
  the
• 20:47
  nature
• 20:47
  of
• 20:48
  mind
• 20:48
  is
• 20:48
  a
• 20:48
  mind
• 20:48
  to
• 20:49
  mind
• 20:49
  transmission
• 20:50
  called
• 20:50
  pointing
• 20:51
  out
• 20:51
  the
• 20:51
  nature
• 20:51
  of
• 20:51
  mind.
• 20:52
  And
• 20:52
  so
• 20:52
  you
• 20:53
  and
• 20:53
  many
• 20:53
  teachers
• 20:54
  are
• 20:54
  doing
• 20:54
  it
• 20:54
  all
• 20:54
  the
• 20:54
  time.
• 20:56
  And
• 20:56
  if
• 20:56
  you
• 20:56
  can,
• 20:57
  if
• 20:57
  you
• 20:57
  can
• 20:57
  kind
• 20:57
  of
• 20:57
  catch
• 20:58
  the
• 20:58
  vibe
• 20:58
  of
• 20:58
  it,
• 20:58
  you
• 20:58
  will
• 20:59
  have
• 20:59
  this
• 20:59
  moment
• 20:59
  of
• 21:00
  clarity.
• 21:00
  And
• 21:00
  then
• 21:00
  what
• 21:01
  that
• 21:01
  does
• 21:01
  is,
• 21:02
  allows
• 21:02
  you
• 21:02
  to
• 21:03
  then
• 21:03
  meditate
• 21:03
  on
• 21:03
  that
• 21:04
  as
• 21:04
  a
• 21:04
  stabilizing
• 21:05
  platform.
• 21:05
  So
• 21:06
  instead
• 21:06
  of
• 21:06
  just
• 21:07
  sitting
• 21:07
  and
• 21:07
  trying
• 21:07
  to
• 21:07
  meditate,
• 21:08
  watching
• 21:08
  your
• 21:08
  breath,
• 21:09
  your,
• 21:09
  your
• 21:09
  object
• 21:09
  of
• 21:10
  awareness
• 21:10
  becomes
• 21:10
  the
• 21:10
  nature
• 21:11
  of
• 21:11
  mind
• 21:11
  itself.
• 21:12
  So
• 21:12
  again,
• 21:12
  the
• 21:13
  name
• 21:13
  of
• 21:13
  that,
• 21:14
  it's
• 21:14
  pointing
• 21:14
  out
• 21:15
  the
• 21:15
  nature
• 21:15
  of
• 21:15
  mind
• 21:16
  is
• 21:16
  that.
• 21:16
  Right.
• 21:17
  That's
• 21:17
  the,
• 21:17
  that's
• 21:18
  the
• 21:18
  moment,
• 21:18
  right,
• 21:19
  that
• 21:19
  you
• 21:19
  get,
• 21:19
  you
• 21:20
  get
• 21:20
  the
• 21:20
  clarity
• 21:21
  what
• 21:21
  Adam
• 21:21
  was
• 21:21
  talking
• 21:22
  about
• 21:22
  when
• 21:22
  there's
• 21:23
  that
• 21:23
  co
• 21:23
  on
• 21:24
  and
• 21:24
  there's
• 21:24
  that
• 21:24
  moment
• 21:25
  of
• 21:25
  clarity
• 21:25
  around
• 21:26
  what
• 21:26
  the
• 21:26
  nature
• 21:26
  of
• 21:26
  mind
• 21:26
  is.
• 21:27
  Now
• 21:27
  the
• 21:28
  flow
• 21:28
  state
• 21:28
  is
• 21:29
  considered
• 21:29
  a
• 21:30
  different
• 21:30
  thing.
• 21:30
  The
• 21:31
  flow
• 21:31
  state
• 21:31
  is
• 21:31
  just
• 21:31
  a
• 21:32
  samadhi,
• 21:32
  meaning
• 21:33
  like
• 21:33
  a
• 21:33
  mental
• 21:33
  absorption
• 21:34
  of
• 21:34
  a
• 21:34
  meditative
• 21:35
  object.
• 21:35
  You
• 21:35
  don't
• 21:36
  necessarily
• 21:36
  have
• 21:36
  an
• 21:37
  example
• 21:37
  of
• 21:37
  the
• 21:38
  nature
• 21:38
  of
• 21:38
  mind
• 21:38
  at
• 21:38
  that
• 21:38
  point.
• 21:39
  So
• 21:39
  you
• 21:39
  can
• 21:39
  have
• 21:39
  an,
• 21:40
  or
• 21:40
  a
• 21:40
  quote
• 21:40
  unquote
• 21:41
  ordinary
• 21:41
  meditative
• 21:42
  experience
• 21:42
  that
• 21:42
  has
• 21:42
  flow
• 21:43
  state
• 21:43
  that
• 21:43
  isn't
• 21:44
  necessarily
• 21:44
  the
• 21:44
  nature
• 21:44
  of
• 21:45
  mind.
• 21:47
  So
• 21:47
  do
• 21:47
  you,
• 21:49
  this
• 21:50
  is
• 21:50
  an
• 21:50
  odd
• 21:51
  question.
• 21:51
  Do
• 21:52
  you
• 21:52
  think
• 21:52
  that,
• 21:53
  or
• 21:56
  to
• 21:56
  take
• 21:56
  it
• 21:56
  out
• 21:56
  of
• 21:57
  the
• 21:57
  realm
• 21:57
  of
• 21:57
  thinking,
• 21:57
  do
• 21:58
  you
• 21:58
  consider
• 21:58
  it
• 21:58
  possible
• 21:59
  to
• 21:59
  be,
• 22:00
  to
• 22:00
  have,
• 22:01
  for
• 22:01
  a
• 22:01
  student
• 22:02
  to
• 22:02
  be
• 22:02
  aware
• 22:03
  of
• 22:03
  the
• 22:03
  nature
• 22:03
  of
• 22:03
  mind
• 22:04
  but
• 22:04
  not
• 22:04
  be
• 22:04
  aware
• 22:04
  of
• 22:05
  it
• 22:06
  or
• 22:06
  to
• 22:06
  have
• 22:06
  the
• 22:06
  nature.
• 22:07
  Oh,
• 22:07
  that's.
• 22:08
  But
• 22:08
  they
• 22:08
  aren't
• 22:09
  aware
• 22:09
  of
• 22:09
  it.
• 22:09
  That.
• 22:09
  Right.
• 22:10
  That's
• 22:10
  very,
• 22:11
  very,
• 22:11
  very
• 22:11
  common.
• 22:12
  So
• 22:12
  in,
• 22:12
  in
• 22:12
  the
• 22:12
  Tibetan
• 22:13
  tradition,
• 22:13
  they
• 22:13
  say
• 22:13
  like
• 22:14
  it's
• 22:14
  so
• 22:14
  close
• 22:14
  that
• 22:15
  you
• 22:15
  don't
• 22:15
  realize
• 22:15
  what
• 22:16
  it
• 22:16
  is.
• 22:16
  Right.
• 22:17
  And
• 22:17
  if
• 22:17
  we
• 22:17
  take
• 22:18
  the,
• 22:18
  the
• 22:18
  Kalachakra,
• 22:19
  like
• 22:19
  the
• 22:19
  highest
• 22:19
  Tantric
• 22:20
  traditions,
• 22:20
  they
• 22:21
  actually
• 22:21
  say
• 22:21
  that
• 22:22
  you
• 22:22
  will
• 22:22
  have
• 22:22
  moments
• 22:23
  of
• 22:23
  it.
• 22:23
  You
• 22:23
  have
• 22:23
  about,
• 22:24
  you
• 22:24
  have
• 22:24
  a
• 22:24
  moment
• 22:25
  of
• 22:25
  it
• 22:25
  every
• 22:26
  now
• 22:26
  and
• 22:26
  then.
• 22:26
  Right.
• 22:27
  And
• 22:27
  adding
• 22:27
  up
• 22:27
  to
• 22:27
  a
• 22:28
  sum
• 22:28
  total
• 22:28
  of
• 22:28
  about
• 22:28
  three
• 22:29
  years
• 22:29
  during
• 22:30
  your
• 22:30
  entire
• 22:30
  life.
• 22:31
  Oh,
• 22:31
  so
• 22:31
  you'll
• 22:32
  have
• 22:32
  like
• 22:32
  a
• 22:32
  little
• 22:32
  flash
• 22:32
  of
• 22:33
  it
• 22:33
  all,
• 22:33
  you
• 22:33
  know,
• 22:34
  regularly
• 22:34
  and
• 22:34
  we
• 22:35
  just
• 22:35
  don't
• 22:35
  realize
• 22:35
  what
• 22:35
  it
• 22:36
  is.
• 22:37
  And
• 22:38
  unfortunately
• 22:38
  in
• 22:38
  the
• 22:39
  west,
• 22:39
  we
• 22:39
  don't
• 22:39
  even
• 22:39
  know
• 22:40
  to
• 22:40
  look
• 22:40
  for
• 22:40
  it
• 22:40
  or
• 22:41
  value
• 22:41
  it
• 22:41
  much.
• 22:42
  Even
• 22:42
  in
• 22:43
  the,
• 22:43
  even
• 22:43
  in
• 22:43
  Tibet,
• 22:44
  this
• 22:44
  is
• 22:44
  a.
• 22:45
  We're
• 22:45
  in
• 22:45
  rarefied
• 22:46
  territory.
• 22:46
  I
• 22:46
  see.
• 22:48
  Well
• 22:48
  said.
• 22:48
  Yeah,
• 22:49
  yeah,
• 22:49
  yeah.
• 22:50
  So
• 22:50
  do
• 22:51
  you
• 22:51
  have
• 22:51
  that
• 22:51
  experience
• 22:51
  with
• 22:52
  your
• 22:52
  students,
• 22:52
  Adam?
• 22:55
  Well,
• 22:55
  the
• 22:55
  students,
• 22:57
  it's,
• 22:57
  you
• 22:58
  know,
• 22:58
  it
• 22:58
  was
• 22:58
  a
• 22:59
  100
• 22:59
  level
• 22:59
  course.
• 23:00
  And
• 23:00
  I
• 23:01
  deeply
• 23:01
  empathize
• 23:02
  with
• 23:02
  freshman
• 23:03
  college
• 23:03
  students
• 23:04
  because
• 23:04
  on
• 23:04
  one
• 23:05
  hand,
• 23:05
  I
• 23:05
  was
• 23:06
  at
• 23:06
  that
• 23:07
  age.
• 23:07
  On
• 23:08
  one
• 23:08
  hand,
• 23:08
  I
• 23:08
  was
• 23:09
  making
• 23:10
  these
• 23:10
  moves
• 23:10
  to
• 23:11
  change
• 23:11
  my
• 23:11
  major
• 23:11
  and
• 23:12
  fully
• 23:12
  commit
• 23:12
  to
• 23:12
  a
• 23:12
  life
• 23:13
  of
• 23:13
  philosophy.
• 23:13
  On
• 23:14
  the
• 23:14
  other
• 23:14
  hand,
• 23:14
  I
• 23:14
  was
• 23:14
  being
• 23:15
  a
• 23:15
  total
• 23:15
  idiot.
• 23:15
  I
• 23:16
  was
• 23:16
  skipping
• 23:16
  class
• 23:17
  and
• 23:17
  partying
• 23:18
  and
• 23:18
  doing
• 23:19
  stupid
• 23:19
  stuff.
• 23:20
  So,
• 23:20
  you
• 23:21
  know,
• 23:21
  especially
• 23:21
  freshman
• 23:22
  year.
• 23:22
  So
• 23:22
  for
• 23:22
  me,
• 23:23
  no
• 23:24
  offense
• 23:24
  to
• 23:24
  my
• 23:24
  students
• 23:24
  or
• 23:24
  anything,
• 23:25
  but
• 23:25
  I
• 23:25
  know
• 23:25
  that
• 23:25
  a
• 23:25
  lot
• 23:25
  of
• 23:26
  them
• 23:26
  are
• 23:27
  busy
• 23:27
  with
• 23:27
  other
• 23:28
  stuff.
• 23:28
  You
• 23:28
  know,
• 23:28
  some
• 23:29
  of
• 23:29
  it
• 23:29
  may
• 23:29
  be
• 23:29
  noble,
• 23:29
  some
• 23:30
  of
• 23:30
  it
• 23:30
  may
• 23:30
  be
• 23:31
  less
• 23:31
  noble,
• 23:32
  but
• 23:33
  I
• 23:33
  think
• 23:33
  that
• 23:33
  at
• 23:33
  that
• 23:34
  age
• 23:34
  and
• 23:34
  that
• 23:34
  exposure,
• 23:35
  when
• 23:36
  I
• 23:36
  empathize
• 23:36
  with
• 23:36
  them,
• 23:37
  it's
• 23:37
  that
• 23:37
  you're
• 23:38
  just
• 23:38
  first
• 23:39
  having
• 23:39
  any
• 23:40
  kind
• 23:40
  of
• 23:40
  exposure
• 23:41
  to
• 23:41
  philosophy.
• 23:42
  I
• 23:42
  didn't
• 23:42
  know
• 23:42
  what
• 23:42
  philosophy
• 23:43
  was
• 23:43
  when
• 23:44
  in
• 23:44
  high
• 23:44
  school.
• 23:45
  Yeah,
• 23:46
  I
• 23:46
  mean,
• 23:46
  I
• 23:46
  had,
• 23:47
  I
• 23:48
  mentioned
• 23:48
  before
• 23:48
  I
• 23:48
  had,
• 23:49
  you
• 23:49
  know,
• 23:49
  I
• 23:49
  had
• 23:49
  some
• 23:49
  moments
• 23:50
  of
• 23:50
  being
• 23:50
  like
• 23:50
  a
• 23:51
  lovesick
• 23:51
  puppy
• 23:51
  and
• 23:52
  looking
• 23:52
  for
• 23:52
  ways
• 23:52
  out,
• 23:52
  going
• 23:53
  to
• 23:53
  the
• 23:53
  library
• 23:53
  and
• 23:54
  looking
• 23:54
  up
• 23:54
  books
• 23:55
  on
• 23:55
  Buddhism,
• 23:55
  thinking
• 23:55
  that
• 23:55
  was
• 23:56
  the
• 23:56
  way
• 23:56
  out
• 23:56
  as
• 23:56
  a,
• 23:56
  as
• 23:57
  a
• 23:57
  Northern
• 23:57
  California
• 23:58
  hippie
• 23:58
  with
• 23:58
  little
• 23:58
  exposure
• 23:59
  to
• 23:59
  Buddhism.
• 24:01
  So
• 24:02
  those
• 24:02
  were
• 24:02
  some
• 24:02
  moments
• 24:02
  where
• 24:03
  I
• 24:03
  was
• 24:03
  kind
• 24:03
  of
• 24:03
  finding
• 24:03
  my
• 24:04
  way
• 24:04
  out.
• 24:04
  But
• 24:05
  when
• 24:05
  I
• 24:05
  went
• 24:05
  into
• 24:05
  Philosophy
• 24:06
  101,
• 24:06
  I
• 24:07
  just
• 24:07
  happened
• 24:07
  to,
• 24:08
  to
• 24:08
  be
• 24:08
  there.
• 24:09
  I
• 24:09
  didn't
• 24:09
  choose
• 24:09
  it.
• 24:09
  It
• 24:10
  was
• 24:10
  part
• 24:10
  of
• 24:10
  the,
• 24:10
  you
• 24:10
  know,
• 24:11
  part
• 24:11
  of
• 24:11
  the
• 24:11
  requirement.
• 24:12
  And
• 24:12
  it
• 24:13
  resonated
• 24:13
  deeply
• 24:14
  with
• 24:14
  me.
• 24:14
  But,
• 24:15
  you
• 24:15
  know,
• 24:15
  my
• 24:15
  habits
• 24:16
  and
• 24:16
  my,
• 24:17
  my
• 24:17
  patterns
• 24:18
  were
• 24:18
  not
• 24:18
  academic,
• 24:19
  were
• 24:19
  not
• 24:19
  scholarly.
• 24:20
  I,
• 24:21
  like
• 24:21
  I
• 24:21
  said,
• 24:21
  skipped
• 24:22
  class
• 24:22
  as
• 24:22
  much
• 24:22
  as
• 24:22
  I
• 24:22
  could
• 24:22
  get
• 24:23
  away
• 24:23
  with.
• 24:23
  Honestly,
• 24:24
  that
• 24:24
  was
• 24:25
  freedom
• 24:25
  as
• 24:25
  a
• 24:25
  freshman.
• 24:26
  So,
• 24:26
  so
• 24:26
  it
• 24:27
  was
• 24:27
  for
• 24:27
  me.
• 24:27
  It
• 24:27
  wasn't
• 24:28
  until
• 24:28
  I
• 24:28
  came
• 24:28
  back
• 24:28
  and
• 24:29
  saw
• 24:29
  the
• 24:29
  same
• 24:29
  teacher,
• 24:30
  oh
• 24:30
  my
• 24:30
  goodness,
• 24:30
  he
• 24:31
  has
• 24:31
  another
• 24:31
  class
• 24:31
  on
• 24:32
  Far
• 24:32
  Eastern
• 24:32
  religion
• 24:33
  at
• 24:33
  a
• 24:33
  300
• 24:33
  level.
• 24:34
  Then
• 24:34
  I
• 24:34
  was
• 24:34
  ready.
• 24:35
  So
• 24:36
  I've
• 24:36
  not
• 24:36
  taught
• 24:36
  a
• 24:37
  class
• 24:37
  at
• 24:37
  the
• 24:37
  300
• 24:37
  level.
• 24:38
  You
• 24:38
  know,
• 24:38
  as
• 24:38
  a,
• 24:38
  as
• 24:39
  a.
• 24:39
  I
• 24:39
  think
• 24:40
  I
• 24:40
  can
• 24:40
  call
• 24:40
  myself
• 24:41
  a
• 24:41
  Confucian.
• 24:42
  So
• 24:42
  this
• 24:42
  all
• 24:43
  really
• 24:43
  is
• 24:44
  propriety
• 24:44
  you're
• 24:45
  doing.
• 24:46
  I'm
• 24:46
  so
• 24:46
  lucky
• 24:47
  to
• 24:47
  have
• 24:47
  been
• 24:47
  exposed
• 24:48
  to
• 24:48
  this
• 24:49
  type
• 24:49
  of
• 24:49
  philosophy
• 24:51
  in
• 24:51
  propriety,
• 24:52
  just
• 24:52
  in
• 24:52
  the
• 24:52
  university,
• 24:54
  just
• 24:54
  going
• 24:54
  to
• 24:54
  Philosophy
• 24:55
  101
• 24:55
  class.
• 24:55
  I
• 24:56
  felt
• 24:56
  like
• 24:56
  I
• 24:56
  had
• 24:56
  a
• 24:56
  100
• 24:57
  level
• 24:57
  understanding.
• 24:57
  Then
• 24:58
  I
• 24:58
  went
• 24:58
  to
• 24:58
  Philosophy
• 24:59
  3,
• 24:59
  300
• 24:59
  class.
• 25:00
  I
• 25:00
  feel
• 25:00
  like
• 25:00
  a
• 25:00
  3,
• 25:01
  300
• 25:01
  level
• 25:02
  of
• 25:02
  understanding
• 25:02
  true
• 25:03
  philosophy.
• 25:04
  Then
• 25:04
  I
• 25:05
  doubled
• 25:05
  down
• 25:06
  and
• 25:06
  committed
• 25:06
  again
• 25:07
  and
• 25:07
  went
• 25:07
  to
• 25:07
  have
• 25:08
  a
• 25:08
  master's
• 25:08
  degree.
• 25:08
  And
• 25:09
  I
• 25:09
  felt
• 25:09
  like
• 25:09
  I
• 25:09
  was,
• 25:09
  you
• 25:09
  know,
• 25:10
  somewhat
• 25:10
  a
• 25:10
  master
• 25:11
  of
• 25:11
  philosophy
• 25:11
  and
• 25:11
  then
• 25:13
  keeping
• 25:13
  sticking
• 25:13
  with
• 25:14
  it
• 25:14
  like
• 25:14
  it
• 25:14
  was
• 25:14
  a
• 25:15
  doctor
• 25:15
  of
• 25:15
  philosophy
• 25:15
  to
• 25:16
  be
• 25:16
  able
• 25:16
  to
• 25:16
  talk
• 25:16
  about
• 25:16
  it,
• 25:17
  maybe
• 25:17
  try
• 25:17
  and
• 25:17
  transmit.
• 25:18
  So
• 25:18
  as
• 25:19
  a
• 25:19
  Confucian,
• 25:19
  I
• 25:19
  felt
• 25:19
  like
• 25:20
  I,
• 25:20
  I
• 25:20
  walked
• 25:20
  that
• 25:21
  path
• 25:21
  of
• 25:22
  level
• 25:22
  100,
• 25:23
  just
• 25:23
  a
• 25:23
  bachelor
• 25:24
  just
• 25:24
  even
• 25:25
  hearing
• 25:25
  about
• 25:25
  it.
• 25:25
  Level
• 25:26
  300,
• 25:26
  okay,
• 25:27
  upper
• 25:27
  division.
• 25:27
  Now
• 25:28
  you're
• 25:28
  kind
• 25:28
  of
• 25:28
  like
• 25:28
  a
• 25:29
  little
• 25:29
  bit
• 25:29
  more
• 25:29
  of
• 25:29
  a
• 25:30
  sophisticated
• 25:30
  bachelor
• 25:31
  and
• 25:31
  master,
• 25:31
  so
• 25:32
  to
• 25:32
  speak.
• 25:32
  So
• 25:32
  from
• 25:33
  my,
• 25:33
  from
• 25:33
  my
• 25:33
  perspective,
• 25:34
  the
• 25:35
  students
• 25:35
  who
• 25:35
  are
• 25:35
  at
• 25:35
  the
• 25:36
  100
• 25:36
  level,
• 25:37
  they
• 25:37
  just
• 25:38
  simply
• 25:38
  have
• 25:38
  a
• 25:38
  little
• 25:39
  glimpse
• 25:39
  of
• 25:39
  it
• 25:39
  and
• 25:40
  then
• 25:40
  they
• 25:40
  have
• 25:40
  to
• 25:41
  make
• 25:41
  it
• 25:41
  their
• 25:41
  own
• 25:42
  or
• 25:42
  not.
• 25:42
  They
• 25:42
  still
• 25:42
  have
• 25:43
  their
• 25:43
  choices.
• 25:43
  It's
• 25:44
  like
• 25:44
  they're
• 25:44
  declaring
• 25:45
  their
• 25:45
  major,
• 25:45
  so
• 25:46
  to
• 25:46
  speak.
• 25:46
  When
• 25:46
  you're
• 25:46
  at
• 25:46
  the
• 25:46
  100
• 25:47
  level,
• 25:47
  yeah.
• 25:47
  But
• 25:48
  you're
• 25:48
  deciding,
• 25:48
  do
• 25:49
  you
• 25:49
  want
• 25:49
  to
• 25:49
  stick
• 25:49
  with
• 25:49
  philosophy
• 25:50
  or
• 25:50
  not?
• 25:50
  And.
• 25:51
  Yeah,
• 25:51
  go
• 25:51
  ahead.
• 25:51
  Sorry.
• 25:52
  The
• 25:52
  seeds
• 25:52
  were
• 25:52
  sown,
• 25:53
  though,
• 25:53
  at
• 25:54
  that
• 25:54
  100
• 25:54
  level.
• 25:55
  I
• 25:56
  think
• 25:56
  that
• 25:56
  you
• 25:56
  can't
• 25:56
  unsee
• 25:57
  it.
• 25:57
  Once
• 25:58
  Socrates
• 25:59
  is
• 25:59
  asking
• 25:59
  you,
• 26:00
  do
• 26:01
  you
• 26:01
  want
• 26:01
  to
• 26:01
  examine
• 26:02
  your
• 26:02
  life
• 26:02
  and
• 26:02
  have
• 26:02
  a
• 26:02
  life
• 26:03
  worth
• 26:03
  living?
• 26:03
  You
• 26:03
  can't
• 26:04
  unsee
• 26:04
  that.
• 26:04
  It's
• 26:04
  going
• 26:04
  to
• 26:05
  be
• 26:05
  in
• 26:05
  there
• 26:05
  your
• 26:05
  whole
• 26:06
  life.
• 26:06
  And
• 26:07
  you
• 26:07
  can
• 26:07
  try
• 26:08
  as
• 26:08
  hard
• 26:08
  as
• 26:08
  you
• 26:08
  want
• 26:08
  to
• 26:09
  avoid
• 26:10
  it
• 26:10
  or
• 26:10
  deny
• 26:10
  it
• 26:11
  or
• 26:11
  think
• 26:11
  that
• 26:11
  that's
• 26:12
  just
• 26:12
  so
• 26:12
  mundane,
• 26:13
  but
• 26:13
  that's,
• 26:14
  that's
• 26:14
  the
• 26:14
  purpose
• 26:14
  of
• 26:15
  life.
• 26:15
  As
• 26:15
  Carl
• 26:15
  Jung
• 26:16
  would
• 26:16
  say.
• 26:16
  You,
• 26:16
  you
• 26:16
  know,
• 26:16
  we
• 26:17
  said
• 26:17
  mentioned
• 26:17
  before,
• 26:18
  you're
• 26:18
  on
• 26:18
  a
• 26:18
  hero's
• 26:18
  journey.
• 26:19
  You're.
• 26:19
  You're
• 26:19
  here
• 26:20
  in
• 26:20
  this
• 26:20
  world
• 26:20
  to
• 26:20
  experience
• 26:21
  your
• 26:21
  soul.
• 26:22
  You're
• 26:22
  here
• 26:22
  in
• 26:22
  this
• 26:23
  world
• 26:23
  to
• 26:24
  transmit
• 26:24
  your
• 26:24
  soul
• 26:25
  or
• 26:25
  to
• 26:25
  integrate
• 26:26
  your
• 26:26
  soul
• 26:26
  into
• 26:26
  this
• 26:26
  life.
• 26:27
  And
• 26:27
  whether
• 26:28
  you
• 26:29
  decide
• 26:29
  to
• 26:30
  take
• 26:30
  up
• 26:30
  that
• 26:30
  challenge
• 26:31
  or
• 26:31
  not
• 26:31
  is
• 26:32
  on
• 26:32
  you.
• 26:32
  And
• 26:32
  if
• 26:32
  you
• 26:32
  don't
• 26:33
  take
• 26:33
  up
• 26:33
  that
• 26:33
  challenge,
• 26:34
  if
• 26:34
  you
• 26:34
  don't
• 26:34
  cultivate
• 26:35
  yourself,
• 26:35
  then
• 26:36
  you
• 26:36
  will
• 26:36
  stay
• 26:36
  in
• 26:36
  similar
• 26:37
  patterns
• 26:37
  and
• 26:37
  life
• 26:38
  will
• 26:38
  teach
• 26:38
  you.
• 26:39
  Life
• 26:39
  will
• 26:39
  keep.
• 26:40
  Keep
• 26:40
  coming
• 26:40
  at
• 26:40
  you.
• 26:41
  It.
• 26:42
  The
• 26:42
  principle
• 26:42
  of
• 26:43
  life
• 26:43
  is
• 26:43
  right
• 26:43
  in
• 26:43
  front
• 26:43
  of
• 26:44
  your
• 26:44
  face
• 26:44
  every
• 26:44
  day.
• 26:44
  And
• 26:45
  if
• 26:45
  you're
• 26:45
  flowing
• 26:46
  with
• 26:46
  the
• 26:46
  principle
• 26:46
  of
• 26:47
  life,
• 26:47
  then
• 26:48
  you'll
• 26:48
  be
• 26:48
  having
• 26:48
  the
• 26:49
  deeper
• 26:49
  cultivation.
• 26:49
  If
• 26:50
  you're
• 26:50
  flowing
• 26:50
  against
• 26:51
  the
• 26:51
  principle
• 26:51
  of
• 26:51
  life.
• 26:51
  And
• 26:52
  it's
• 26:52
  going
• 26:52
  to
• 26:52
  keep
• 26:52
  coming
• 26:52
  at
• 26:52
  you,
• 26:53
  teaching
• 26:53
  you
• 26:53
  these
• 26:53
  lessons
• 26:54
  over
• 26:54
  and
• 26:54
  over
• 26:54
  until
• 26:54
  you
• 26:55
  find
• 26:55
  the
• 26:55
  proper
• 26:55
  way
• 26:56
  through
• 26:56
  it.
• 26:56
  Yep.
• 26:57
  And
• 26:57
  our
• 26:57
  proper
• 26:58
  next
• 26:58
  step
• 26:59
  is.
• 26:59
  We
• 26:59
  have
• 26:59
  to
• 26:59
  take
• 27:00
  a
• 27:00
  short
• 27:00
  break.
• 27:00
  I'm
• 27:00
  Anthony
• 27:01
  Wright
• 27:01
  and
• 27:01
  I'm
• 27:02
  the
• 27:02
  co.
• 27:02
  Your
• 27:02
  co
• 27:03
  host
• 27:03
  on
• 27:03
  the
• 27:04
  Living
• 27:04
  Conversation
• 27:05
  with.
• 27:06
  I'm
• 27:06
  Adam
• 27:06
  Deets.
• 27:07
  I'm
• 27:07
  a
• 27:07
  co
• 27:08
  host
• 27:08
  or
• 27:08
  host
• 27:08
  on
• 27:09
  the
• 27:09
  Way
• 27:09
  between
• 27:09
  podcast
• 27:10
  as
• 27:10
  well.
• 27:10
  In
• 27:10
  this
• 27:10
  crossover
• 27:11
  episode.
• 27:12
  And
• 27:12
  we're
• 27:12
  here
• 27:12
  with
• 27:12
  our
• 27:12
  guest,
• 27:13
  Nick
• 27:14
  Egan.
• 27:15
  And
• 27:15
  how
• 27:15
  can
• 27:15
  people
• 27:16
  contact
• 27:16
  you,
• 27:16
  Nick?
• 27:17
  You
• 27:17
  can
• 27:18
  find
• 27:18
  me
• 27:18
  at
• 27:18
  nickeganphd.com
• 27:19
  or
• 27:19
  at
• 27:20
  shiftleadership.group.
• 27:22
  And
• 27:22
  Adam,
• 27:23
  I'm
• 27:24
  on
• 27:24
  Substack.
• 27:24
  Free
• 27:24
  Substack.
• 27:25
  You
• 27:25
  can
• 27:25
  search
• 27:25
  me
• 27:26
  up
• 27:26
  at
• 27:26
  the
• 27:26
  way
• 27:26
  between
• 27:26
  on
• 27:27
  there
• 27:27
  on
• 27:27
  Substack
• 27:28
  and
• 27:28
  also
• 27:29
  just
• 27:29
  contact
• 27:29
  me
• 27:29
  directly.
• 27:30
  Ds
• 27:30
  Adam.
• 27:31
  D
• 27:31
  I
• 27:31
  E
• 27:31
  T
• 27:31
  Z
• 27:32
  Adam
• 27:32
  Gmail
• 27:33
  com.
• 27:33
  And
• 27:33
  I'm
• 27:33
  Anthony
• 27:34
  Wright
• 27:34
  and
• 27:34
  my
• 27:35
  website
• 27:35
  is
• 27:35
  theonaut
• 27:36
  T-H-E-O-N-A-U-T.com
• 27:39
  and
• 27:39
  there
• 27:39
  is
• 27:39
  a
• 27:40
  comment
• 27:40
  panel
• 27:40
  in
• 27:41
  on
• 27:41
  the
• 27:41
  website.
• 27:42
  So
• 27:43
  stay
• 27:43
  tuned.
• 27:43
  We'll
• 27:43
  be
• 27:44
  right
• 27:44
  back.