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Differently Wired | ADHD in Community With Marcia · Neighbourly: Real Stories of Care and Community

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What does loving your neighbor actually look like? This
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is Journey with Care, where curious Canadians get inspired to
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love others well through real life stories and honest
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conversations.
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We are in our series differently wired together in community,
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and I'm so excited to continue this series. We've been having a blast
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listening to so many different guests, and we have more to come. And with me
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in studio, I have Marcia Hamm. But before I introduce you
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to her, I want to just encourage our listeners that we do have another
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podcast line. I wanna remind you to, subscribe to
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Journey with Prayer where we bring things, content from our
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Friday episodes from the head to the heart. So Mondays, I I
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hope you're following with us these short meditative prayers and how we can put these
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things into action, how we can process the content that we're listening to. So I
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encourage you to journey with prayer. Well, today, we
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have Marcy Ham with us here in the studio in our Shasta. Nice
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summer day, and, welcome to the podcast. Thank you very much. I'm
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excited to be here. Yeah. It's so good. You are back. For those that have
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been following along, you'll wanna listen to, Marcia's
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story on flavors of care, the creative,
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Enneagram 4, and we had a lot of fun in that one. And I was
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just excited to call you back in for this series, specifically
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on neurodiversities. I know you and I were sitting around a fire. We had that
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ice cream party Mhmm. Podcast meetup, and we started talking and
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dreaming. What about having this series? And you were part of that conversation,
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and here you are again this summer, and it's good to have you
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back. Yeah. I'm excited to explore a little bit of this angle of
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flavors with care, really. To me, it feels kind of an extension of that. It
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really is. Yeah. We're we're looking at all the different exceptionalities
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that are right around us. We have neurodiversities,
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and there's mental illnesses or diagnoses
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and conditions that maybe doesn't fit well
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within the neuro typical expectations and social norms,
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and you come with a very unique perspective. Can you tell us a little bit
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about yourself and your family dynamics that tweaked your
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interest when we talked about this topic? Yes. This has been on my mind
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for a while because, as a teacher, I was exposed to
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neurodiversities early in my career. I had students that I was
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making adaptations for and learning more about how their brains worked.
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And I cared really deeply for those specific students, and I kinda got interested
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in that area. But then as I moved into motherhood, we started to
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notice some exceptionalities in our oldest. And that's been quite
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a I was gonna say a long journey. It's been as long as her life,
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basically. But just some exceptionalities there, some differences, and
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we didn't know how to find support for the ways that it made life challenging.
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As we explored how to get her support and how to parent her
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well, I started to recognize things within myself that were maybe
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neurodiversities, and we've also are now seeing it in our youngest child as well
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that there's some differences about how his brain works as well. So this
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has been a huge learning journey for our family, but it's made me very
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passionate about it because now that I've seen it, I can't unsee it. Right. And
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so as a teacher too, it has transformed how I teach and approach my students.
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So what were the those early signs? You were saying something is different, my
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parenting experience, I'm needing to write a new
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manual. The parenting by the book isn't working. What what were
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some of those things that made you go, or or did you take it personally,
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like, I don't have my act together? It was a 100% I took it personally.
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Oh. I like, I don't have my act together? It was a 100% I took
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it personally. Oh. I my daughter was around age 2, 3.
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She was, you know, having tantrums or finding things difficult and finding a
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hard time regulating her emotions. And all these other parents seem to
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be able to manage when these things happen with their kids. And I was like,
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what am I doing wrong that I have, like, already screwed up parenting
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within 2 or 3 years. Right? And so I I took on a lot of
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shame about my parenting at that point. And, unfortunately, that
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meant then I actually parented her less well. Because
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every time she was struggling, I took it personally because it was like, now
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I'm a failure because she is struggling instead of being able to acknowledge
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her difficulties and say, oh, you're having a hard time. Let me help you. That's
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the pivot we've had to make over our journey, but it was not like that
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at the beginning. Yeah. No. I and I can identify with that as well
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in my own parenting journey and trying to
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discover how am I gonna raise this human
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Mhmm. And why can't I keep them calm? Yes.
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Calm. Feels very elusive. And and there's this
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illusion that calm and nice and smiling and put
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together means good Christian. Yes. Right?
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Yes. Can we dig into that a little bit? What Jesus said, let the
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little children come and don't hinder them. Mhmm. What are we meaning here
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with our kiddos? Yeah. With ours, that has been a
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big challenge for for myself and my husband, in the church and
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in our even just our Christian community. We kind of assume
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that kids who can hold it together, who can manage their emotions,
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who can navigate surprising circumstances, and kinda be
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flexible and pivot and be resilient, I feel like we've
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almost kind of conflated that with good character
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in the church. And that if your child presents well, if they greet you
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politely when someone greets them, if they answer someone politely
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when someone speaks to them, if they're able to make eye contact, all of those
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pieces feel like, oh, this is such a good kid. And and adults will say,
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oh, I love that kid. They're so easy to talk to. Or, you know, they're
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such a great kid. And I have done that as a teacher. I've They always
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get the character awards too. They do. They get the character awards. They get this,
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academic awards. Right? They get all these. They get noticed for hard work,
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and sometimes it's really difficult as a parent of neurodivergent children
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because your children are working so hard every day to
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manage stuff that other kids don't have to manage, but people still
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assume that they're not even as good character as the baseline of the other
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students or kids. Yeah. And so I've
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really had to learn for myself to detangle
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what the fruit of the spirit looks like from what emotional regulation
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looks like. And those pieces, like, what is my brain needing to learn a
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new coping mechanism or my child's brain? And what is
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me needing to, like, be in tune with the Holy Spirit and respond to the
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Holy Spirit's leading. Tell me more about that. What what does that look like?
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Well, for me, particularly, it was kind of a journey from
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shame into freedom. And when I started learning about my daughter's
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brain and how she was different, suddenly a lot of things kinda started to slot
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into place. I was like, oh, this actually speaks to why I have a lot
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of shame in my life. Mhmm. And so a lot of my
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life and a lot of my kind of sin management or behavior management for
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myself was related to, like, everyone else can get this
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together. Everyone else doesn't get angry at the drop of a hat. Everyone else knows
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how to say sorry and offer forgiveness or to acknowledge
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someone else's perspective even without getting upset. And so I'm
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just failing. I'm failing. I'm failing. I'm failing. God must be so ashamed of me.
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When god looks at me, he's he's ashamed, and he's like, come on. Get it
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together. Get it together. Everyone else around you is getting it together. And so for
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me, the pivot moment was when I realized that god loved me exactly as I
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am, which sounds very base, like, very basic.
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Mhmm. But when I actually started to believe that at my very worst, when I
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could not manage anything and I felt like I could not hold anything together, that's
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when I was loved. And once I was able to see that,
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then that is what enabled me to be able to say
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sorry when I did explode or to be able to
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offer forgiveness when someone else hurt me. It enabled me to be able
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to say, oh, maybe I'm wrong. Like, are you seeing this a different way than
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me? And, ultimately, that then allowed me to be able to look at my child
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and not not see a child who is misbehaving and
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displaying to the world that I'm a terrible parent, but to actually see that my
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child was having a hard time. And then I could, in freedom,
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care for her. And then I can also hear from the Holy Spirit that,
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like, maybe you actually should give up this little thing that
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you're holding on to or this like, you're actually right in this situation. Right? Because
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a lot of times, especially with ADHD, kids have massive emotions because they
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struggle with the emotional regulation piece. Right. And so they might yell
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things at you that aren't really true or aren't really how the situation went, but
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that's how they're expressing this pain inside of them. And so
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you want to defend yourself and say, I didn't say that. I didn't do that.
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But sometimes it's like, holy spirit is like, it's okay. Like, you actually you're okay.
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You're loved. Yeah. Like, you're okay. You don't have to defend that you didn't say
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that to your kid. You have to notice that your kid's having a hard time
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and offer your help. Yeah. And for me, that has been immensely
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freeing and totally transformed how I parent. Well, and if you look it through the
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New Testament too, there's so many instances where Jesus looked beyond the
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behavior, beyond the social norms, beyond what a society said
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was right and wrong in the rule book of, like, social
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norms. He looked beyond that, and he looked at the heart,
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their belovedness. They are made in the image of God. And Yeah. And I think
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that is something, yeah, so simplistic, so baseline, and yet
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we often miss it, our own belovedness. When we are beloved,
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we can actually be responding a different way than out of a
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shameful, oh, I have to act a certain way. Yeah. That's
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exactly it. What are some glimmers of hope, some treasures along
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the way as you discovered her ADHD and as you were discovering
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your own that actually gave you sort of a lifeline, that gave you
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hope and and maybe words to what you were experiencing and saying, hey. I'm
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not broken. I'm just neurodiverse. Mhmm. I'm just operating out of
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a different system here. What were some of those pieces
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that gave you relief along the way? Yeah. I think some one of the
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first things actually for me, and this was before I really even realized I had
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ADHD, but it just had to do with some of the gifts, I think, that
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come from ADHD, which is like a the ability to see things that other people
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don't see, this kind of creative energy. And I
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remember intentionally not bringing up ideas in my marriage about how our
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family could grow and work together because I thought, well and this was kind of
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also in my view of women and men at this time. But, like, oh, well,
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my husband should be, like, leaving my home, and so he should be coming up
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with these ideas. And as we learn more about each other and I learn more
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about my brain, I was like, no. Actually, this is a gift that I see
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things other people don't see, and I can think of how to arrange things in
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a way that someone else wouldn't think of. And if I don't offer that,
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then we're all missing out. Mhmm. And so, again, that was part of my freedom
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journey too that once I realized that my brain was different and it wasn't a
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shameful thing, I was able to use my gifts far
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more often. And I was able to even enjoy using them because
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in the past, I would think, like, oh, if I think I'm good at this,
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then I should I should probably, like, not tell people I'm good at this because
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I'm a good Mennonite. But, you know, you don't wanna be prideful. Right?
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So you wanna avoid Oh, she's so goody. Yeah. But, really, what it meant like,
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now I feel like, oh, I am good at this. Like, my brain is different.
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I can I can name what's different, and then I can honor what is good
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about it and also still see what I can improve on? Yeah.
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So creativity is definitely one of your strong suits. You're a creative
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writer. You're you're just creative in all things and and how you think what
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other expressions do you see that maybe aren't as natural
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for a lot of people? I think a lot of
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my brain works well for teaching actually in a in a classroom
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setting because ADHD brains tend to get like, we have a
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it's not really attention deficit. It's more like we can pay attention to a lot
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of things at one time, and that's what's can be overwhelming, and that's what can
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make emotional regulation difficult. But the beauty of that is that in a school
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system, there's already a structure Mhmm. But there's freedom within the
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structure, and that works well for me. And so in the classroom, I
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feel like I have opportunities to just try different ways of teaching and different ways
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of learning and different activities. And I have a lot of freedom to just think
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of new ways to teach lessons that aren't, you know, read the textbook, answer the
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questions. And I actually I see a lot of teachers who have probably have ADHD
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or maybe I'm just hypersensitive to it now, but I'm like, no. I wonder. So
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variety and and switching from a multiple of things of
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interest energizes you. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
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Absolutely. Alright. So when we're talking ADHD,
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what I understood growing up and not knowing a lot, not
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being exposed to a lot, I had this kind of image
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of this kid that just couldn't sit still, bouncing off the walls,
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oh, and they must have ADHD. But since then,
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I've learned and walked with people that it's so much different.
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It can be part of that. We might be able to see that in kids,
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but let's talk a little bit of what ADHD actually is. Let's
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demystify that a little bit. And then I wanna talk about what it's
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like for girls because that's a whole another game there. Yes. It is. And
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and I feel like we talk so what are the 3 types of ADHD
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that people could be diagnosed with? We're not gonna get clinical here. We're not trying
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to diagnose a disclaimer here. But from your understanding, what are the 3
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types of ADHD we're talking about? Yeah. So the hyperactive is kind of the what
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people assume to be ADHD. It's what people make jokes about. Right? Like, oh, I'm
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so ADHD or, oh, squirrel. Right? But there's also
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inattentive, and those tend to present much much more quietly. You don't see
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it externally. And then there's the combined type. So that where there's
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hyperactivity and inattentive. And it's usually
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it's I would say it's often both because but inattentive
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can get missed a lot in kids, especially because in the classroom, inattentive
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ADHD students don't have as much, disruption. They don't
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cause as much disruption because they might just be missing things without knowing that they're
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missing things, but they're not hyperactive on top of that. Another part of the hyperactivity
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that might be missed sometimes is actually some a child can or a person can
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have a hyperactive diagnosis, but the hyperactivity is actually not external. It's
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internal Okay. And it's racing thoughts. And so this is why there's a lot of
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overlap with anxiety as well. Yeah. I've heard it described to
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me as a race car brain with bicycle brakes. Mhmm. And it
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it's not necessarily external, but racing thoughts and busy mind
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Yes. And and easily distractible in in that way. And
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so I would imagine with a race car brain and bicycle
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brakes, it would be difficult in some functions for some
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people with executive function as well when there are certain
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tasks needing to be accomplished in organizing those things
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in a methodical way. That could be a challenge. Everything feels
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like what might be to someone else, oh, I'm gonna brush my teeth. That's one
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task. For an ADHD brain, that can feel like 5 steps,
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5 tasks. Because to break down, you have to say, oh, I need time. I
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need to think about brushing my teeth. I need to go to the bathroom. I
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need to get the toothbrush out. I need to, like, put the toothpaste on, and
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I need to actually be willing to feel the feeling, the sensory feeling of a
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toothbrush in my mouth. And so there's all these steps that can be really
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difficult for an ADHD brain to kinda start, whereas if someone else's, like, just
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do the thing. ADHD brain can get really bogged down on the steps. Sometimes they
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may not even know what the steps are, and then you feel overwhelmed. And then
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you might have the hyperactivity in your mind, but you aren't able to really
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anchor any of the things that are floating around in your head. They're just floating,
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and then you don't know where to start or how to do something, and you
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can kind of get into this frozen state. Well, let's talk about ADHD in
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girls because sometimes that can also be overlooked. Boys are more
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typically found out for autism or or ADHD and
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a lot of neurodiversities because even a lot of the studies that have been
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done have been typifying boys Yep.
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And girls can be missed. Can you tell us a little bit more about your
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experience in that field? Yes. Now my daughter has a couple
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different diagnoses. ADHD isn't the only one, but it was the first one that
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we had kind of articulated for us. And when she was
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younger, she was very explosive. She found it difficult. Like, we did use a
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lot of visuals to help her break down steps and things like that. We struggle
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a lot with aggression, actually. So she would when she was frustrated, she would hit
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or hurt. So we were worried about her going to kindergarten because we thought, how
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is this gonna work? We don't know if we can do it. We explored all
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the different kind of schooling options. We landed on the public school in our area,
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and we sent her to kindergarten, and we heard nothing from the teachers for the
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1st 2 months. And then we had our, you know, midterm parent teacher meeting,
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and the teacher's like, oh, she's just so sweet and lovely. We just love
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having her in class. And my husband and I think our jaws actually dropped.
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And and we looked at her and we said, like, you're serious? And she says,
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yes. And I was like, okay. Is she hit she hasn't hit anybody. No.
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She has not thrown anything. No. And we were
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just, like, flabbergasted. So, again, like, at this point in our journey, this was
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like, oh, we must be horrible parents because at home, we see this behavior. But
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at school, she clearly knows what the right thing is to do. She knows how
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to control her behavior. What are we doing wrong? So then we hear, you know,
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people say, well, you know, kids feel safe at home, and so that's when they
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explode and they let it all down. We're like, okay. But that's a normal kid
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thing to do. So is this in the realm of normal? Right? And so
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from k to 4, the teachers never saw the concerns we had. We continued
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having challenges at home, and our daughter actually expressed challenges that she was having at
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school, but the teachers kept saying, nope. She's lovely. Like like, a
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joy to have in class, always quiet, always obedient, always listening,
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and that just was not our experience in the home. And,
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what we learned through our journey now with her is that her anxiety about
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missing things because she knew she missed things. She knew she was missing social cues.
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She knew she if she left the room, she would miss instructions, and so she
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wouldn't actually even leave to use the bathroom because she felt this,
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like, deep fear that if she left, she would miss out and not know what
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was going on. And so the anxiety provided
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kind of the capacity to follow the rules and to get things done in the
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classroom and to mask all these ADHD symptoms. But then when she was
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home, then she wasn't anxious anymore because home was her safe place, and then
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all the symptoms just poured out of her. And so this we're
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seeing it again with our youngest. Right? I had some serious concerns this last week.
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He was having a lot of trouble regulating his emotions again. So I had a
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conversation with his teacher, and she says, you know, we just don't see that at
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school. Like, we don't see any signs of ADHD at school. And I that's
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I think too his anxiety is masking and kind of covering some of this.
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And so with girls, frequently, because they're more inattentive and less
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hyperactive, the masking is even more. My daughter's also hyperactive, but it's very common
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in girls to just be inattentive and kinda be in a daydreamy state. Mhmm. And
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so they don't get their things done, but they're smart. They're intelligent. So
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teachers think, well, you know, if she just focuses a little more, like, she just
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needs reminders to be on task, but, really, that's actually, like, a skill that
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needs to be worked on specifically for their brain. Right. So, behaviorally, they
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can mask and get by. They're socialized. Yeah. But at
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home, they're trying to make sense of it. And I wonder maybe you can
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speak to it from your own upbringing and experience, but what does that do
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to your understanding of self if you have to be somebody else in
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front of everybody at church or at school in you're
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following the social cues, but inside, you come home and you're
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just Yeah. You're melting down. Yeah. You always feel like you're having a hard time.
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You always feel overwhelmed. And I think for my daughter, I've definitely seen
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that it feels like she has a hard time trusting that someone actually
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loves her for who she is, and that if she's not perfect, then she's
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not loved, which we have worked so hard because of all the learning that I've
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done. I'm like, I don't want her to get that message at all because I
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had to work so hard to unlearn that. But because they can see, they
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can pick up on the social norms around them and adjust their behavior, but then
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when they get home, they cannot manage it. And that sense of failure there's a
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an ongoing sense of failure with kids with ADHD because they're always
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trying their hardest, and it's never quite doing what everyone else around expects out of
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them. And do you think they grow out of it as they get in a
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to be an adult with ADHD, or does it come with them into
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adulthood hood that I'm not enough, I am less than, I'm
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failure? Yeah. Unless they do really hard intentional work
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with parents, with therapists, with friendships
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even. It's very difficult to unlearn that default belief about
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yourself. Because I think ADHD kids get something like, I don't know, they
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hear no 70 times a day or something like that because they are always doing
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things that they know they shouldn't, but they do anyway, and then the negative
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feedback. Well, it's that impulsivity. Right? Yeah. Because sometimes,
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the people can do things more impulsively and then think about it
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later. Yeah. Exactly. And I see this in my classes all the time,
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and I even have to battle it. So knowing all of this and having this
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deep kind of well of experience and knowledge about how an ADHD brain works and
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how that affects their self worth, I still catch myself sometimes
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being like, oh, that kid, he just doesn't wanna learn. You know? And then I'm
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realizing, no. I don't think my classroom is actually equipped to help him
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learn, and I am maybe am failing as a teacher. And I know I
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work in a system that or the school system is not a perfect system. Classrooms
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and aren't always set up for the best learning environment for every kid. But as
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a teacher, what can I do to make it accessible for this
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child to want to learn because it is so difficult for them? They're working so
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much harder to pay attention in the classroom than the average kid is. Yeah.
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And I don't believe people innately are trying to
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be terrible people. Yep. There's coping mechanisms. There's
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things we just do what we gotta do to get by. Yeah.
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Right? Yeah. And they know they know what is good and right and
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what benefits their relationships, but the impulsivity and the executive function piece really is a
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hindrance to them being able to do what they know is right.
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Yeah. No. That's so good. What are some ways that have
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been
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to
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to you and your children? What are some of those things that and, obviously, it'll
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be different for different people, but what has been helpful for you? Well,
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my my children would say a pet would be the most helpful, but we have
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not quite gone there yet. We are babysitting some cats right now to try it
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out, but, they really love that the calming
21:33
presence of an animal. But also, what's been most helpful, honestly, is as
21:36
parents, us acknowledging that it's not they're not being bad.
21:40
They're having a hard time. Mhmm. So we can come alongside. So when they're overwhelmed,
21:44
I say, like, I'm here to help. And that posture, as a parent, rather
21:48
than I'm here to tell you how you've done it wrong or I'm here to
21:50
correct your behavior, I'm here to make you a good person, know I'm here to
21:53
help you. That posture has been really helpful for us. That's good. But in addition
21:57
to just some of the the physical outlet pieces, to be able to
22:01
make sure that we have physical stimulation, that there's weighted blankets, that
22:04
there's weights, like, heavy work, that they're, like, climbing monkey bars,
22:08
and we're active as a family is really important as well for helping us
22:12
regulate. And another thing that we find helpful for
22:15
us is just the actual, like, slowing down of
22:19
our schedule. Mhmm. A lot of families go, go, go because if you
22:23
have a hyperactive kid, sometimes you need a schedule. But if you have a
22:27
a kid with a brain difference like this, you want they can't be bored,
22:31
but they also can't just be busy all the time. And so you have
22:34
kind of navigate this tension between you want them to have tasks that
22:38
they feel accomplished in and that they do well in and that they feel successful
22:41
at, but not to kinda push them beyond their window of tolerance and to make
22:45
time for downtime. So we intentionally plan, like, if we're going doing something big on
22:49
a weekend, we're not gonna do something big on a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. Right? So
22:53
we have to build in these rhythms. Yeah. These are really good
22:56
because these are all accessible resources. We have playgrounds. There
23:00
are weighted blankets. There are pets. You know? And Yeah. And I know that's been
23:03
very helpful in our home. These are things that we can do that
23:07
actually make a big difference. And and I've heard of some families have
23:11
gone medication route and others that haven't needed to. They've they
23:15
found other therapeutic routes and a combination thereof.
23:18
What has been your way of navigating the idea of
23:22
medication and those things? Yeah. That was a big thing. That was very difficult, and
23:26
it still remains kind of a difficult thing for various support people in her
23:29
life. We have tried a couple different medications, for
23:33
ADHD. That that medication did not work well for us. Right now,
23:36
there's we're using some medication for anxiety, and that is actually working
23:40
better. It can make the ADHD worse in a way because the anxiety was helping
23:43
her mask all of the symptoms. And so then once you take away the
23:47
anxiety, then now you have to learn the skills of actually working with how your
23:50
brain is. But there's more joy there is what we found
23:54
because there's the the joy piece is is present. But for some, I know that
23:57
the medication has brought the joy. And so for me, I really
24:02
I always wanna enter that conversation about, medication and
24:05
supports with grace. Right. Because it's very tempting. If you
24:09
don't have any experience with someone who's neurodivergent, It's very tempting to be
24:12
like, well, medication we wanna avoid a medication at all costs. We wanna make sure,
24:16
like, you know, we can pray, we can trust Jesus. Right? There's all these kind
24:19
of spiritualisms you can try to, like, layer on top of it and then just
24:22
say, like, God will heal them or, you know and really, it's a matter of,
24:26
like, using the tools that God's given us. Right. And he's given us a variety.
24:30
It's a whole toolbox. And if we wanna honor the image of God in
24:33
somebody, we don't make hard and fast rules like never take medication
24:37
or always take medication. Right? We honor the image of god in that person and
24:40
what's gonna work best for their flourishing. And curiosity.
24:44
Right? It's different for everybody. Right? And and there's a different
24:47
pathway and different therapeutic approaches that are supportive.
24:51
Mhmm. But I I have a personal question to ask you off of that.
24:55
I've heard of people wanting to pray away neurodiversities.
25:00
Interesting. And yet I see the beauty, the diversity,
25:04
the the exceptionality within the brains of people
25:08
that are differently wired. Yeah. And not to put things on a pedestal,
25:12
better or worse than, but there's such exceptionalities of creativity
25:17
and intelligence and different creative ways of approaching things.
25:21
I'm gonna be point blank. Yeah. Do you wanna be healed from that?
25:24
No. No. But I do know I do know. I have I have
25:28
students who have articulated that to me that they would like there to be a
25:31
a pure. They would like to be healed of it. They feel they don't see
25:35
the beauty in it. And so it does take a lot of work Right.
25:39
To trust god's plan in that because
25:43
they have experienced so much negativity around it that they don't see the beauty in
25:46
it. But I would never want to pray that away in somebody or
25:50
hope that that gets healed. Because I think I think the more
25:54
that we can listen to one another and learn from one another, the more,
25:58
people with different brains can actually excel, and we aren't gonna be trapped in this
26:02
world that just expects everyone to be one way or think one way or look
26:05
one way. It's actually gonna benefit the entire community of god if we can
26:09
embrace these diversities. And I think that, to me I always think
26:13
too, like, the image of god is not just, like, in the one person. The
26:16
image of god is actually in our community because I personally I am made in
26:20
the image of god, but my brain and the way I see the world
26:23
isn't that that's that would be very limiting if God only thought like
26:27
Marcia. Right. Right? So but but to have your brain and my brain
26:31
and Johan's brain. Right? Like, and all these different brains that altogether we collectively
26:35
reflect god's goodness. Absolutely. And so I I think we want
26:38
to honor him. Not a deficiency that I don't have it altogether. You don't have
26:42
it altogether. No. We're made in the image of God, and collectively,
26:46
we can bear God's witness. Yeah. And we're well, we need each other then to
26:50
point people to who how good he is. So it's exciting, and it feels way
26:53
less lonely. It feels way less scary because I
26:57
don't have to have all the pieces. Well, we could talk about a whole bunch
27:00
of things. But before we close, I do need to dive into one topic. I
27:04
know you have a lot of experience in church ministry personally and
27:08
as a couple, as a family. What's your experience
27:11
been for yourself navigating your faith in
27:15
community, in church community with neurodiversities?
27:19
The first thing that comes to mind is the kind of
27:22
shame, of like, oh, this person always reads their whole bible in
27:26
a year. Am I like, should I really be in charge of this ministry if
27:29
I don't have a daily bible reading habit? Right? Like and I've
27:33
learned to also this actually kinda more more recent part of my journey is that,
27:36
like, I'm in connection with the holy spirit, and I'm meditating on scripture a lot
27:40
now, but I actually don't sit and have a a habit because habits are
27:43
very difficult for ADHD brains. But I'm enjoying my
27:47
participation in scripture now instead of seeing scripture as a, oh, I failed to read
27:50
today and I failed. Right? And it it gets become a joy to
27:53
meditate on scripture when when the holy spirit brings it brings it to mind. So
27:57
that was something I had to learn when as a leader, I felt like, an
28:01
imposter in leadership. Because here I am leading people in ministry,
28:04
and I don't have these habits that everyone says a good Christian should have or
28:07
these spiritual disciplines. And so the spiritual disciplines part always
28:11
terrified me because discipline is not something that I come by naturally. Naturally. However,
28:15
when I, again, when I when I could trust that I was loved, it totally
28:17
changed that because that's not spiritual disciplines for me. It's
28:22
it's a spiritual response to a father who loves me. Right. Right? And
28:25
so it's a responsiveness thing. It's not a enforce it
28:29
thing. One other area of ministry that I always think about when I think about
28:32
neurodiversity as well is, like, the parenting aspect. We we talk a lot
28:35
of churches will emphasize a lot of family support and family ministries
28:39
and all these pieces, and very few in my experience are actually
28:43
supporting the families that need the most support. They're supporting kind of the middle
28:46
ground families, kind of the average, the you know? And
28:50
those parents still need support. Don't get me wrong. We wouldn't even make the group.
28:54
If I went to the group and told them what life is like in my
28:57
house, nobody around the table would know what to do with it. They would they
29:00
would they would kinda just their eyes would go buggy. They might judge my character
29:04
and then my ability to be a parent and my ability to be in ministry.
29:07
And and I would I'm we're left more alone. A lot of parents of neurodivergent
29:10
kids feel very, very alone in the church because yeah, it's always safe to
29:14
share what life is actually like when your brain operates differently. So
29:18
my hope and dream is that we can eventually
29:21
see a church that wants to, like, notice,
29:25
name, and honor these diversities and to provide specific
29:29
CarePortal or even just to consider and listen to each other
29:32
so that when we when we build a parent curriculum, that we're not just thinking
29:35
about kind of the average typical child, but that we are considering, okay. If we're
29:38
gonna build this parent curriculum for our church, let's make sure we talk to a
29:41
family of a kid whose disabilities are physical and, like, makes are they having
29:45
trouble accessing specific spaces? Or let's talk to a family where their brain
29:49
the child's brain is different, and so they are developmentally different. Let's make sure that
29:52
those voices are included in the planning because that'll then be represented when
29:56
we equip each other as the believers. Right? And that's not to complicate the curriculum.
29:59
It's actually to enhance it, to make it more accessible. I
30:03
I've heard some people say, well, in in our kids' ministry, we don't
30:07
have those kind of kids. I'm like, well, then why? Yeah. Right? Because we
30:10
wanna make it accessible. So listening to those families who are
30:14
navigating it is a gift. Yeah. And what are some of the things that you've
30:18
experienced as a family that has worked well in your church experience and your
30:21
faith journey? Well, what's worked really well is having a a home group, like a
30:25
small group of families that is close to us. Because for our children, big public
30:29
spaces can be very difficult and very overwhelming. Mhmm. And so having
30:32
people come to our home regularly and being in our lives,
30:36
the parents gathering and praying together and the kids, you know, worshiping with us and
30:39
then playing on their own and those pieces those adults felt very safe for
30:43
my children. My children felt like they could talk to them. It was just,
30:47
the real picture of the community of God, not just, you know, a service on
30:50
a Sunday morning. And so I think the small group and 1 on 1 family
30:54
connections are really vital for a church family. You can't just go to a service
30:57
and say I'm part of this church, but you need to be spending time, lived
31:00
life with people around you because then they also can see
31:04
the complexity. Right? They're the ones who then can pray, and I can say, hey.
31:07
I this is what happened in our home. And they're not shocked. Their eyes don't
31:10
widen because, you know, you're not just doing a one off parenting group with them.
31:13
You're actually doing everyday life with them, and they've seen the different things that have
31:16
happened. And then they are there's compassion and grace there because they know.
31:20
Mhmm. And I think a a key piece to to circle back to what
31:24
you started with to to know that people are loved,
31:27
not by behavior or the complexities that they're trying to navigate in
31:31
a neurotypical world. It's complicated. We have weird rules, kinda like
31:35
learning English. It's weird. Right? Like, Why do we say the things we do
31:39
and and why do we word things? English is complicated, but so is the
31:42
neurotypical world to navigate. But for people, for
31:46
children to grow up knowing and for adults to have to relearn
31:50
if they've only discovered their neurodiversities in a later life, because let's
31:53
face it so many. And we've had some people on the podcast
31:57
later on in life that found out their neurodiversities to
32:01
understand their belovedness that they are not broken. They are made in the image of
32:04
God. Yep. And they are beloved. And what a
32:08
different projection. It doesn't necessarily take away the complexities,
32:12
but it gives a solid foundation. Yeah. And it makes you part of a beautiful
32:16
story Yeah. Instead of just It reframes it. Yeah. Exactly.
32:19
So, Marcy, are is there anything else that you'd like to share with our listeners?
32:23
Yeah. There's a part of ADHD that a lot of it has to do with
32:25
emotions, which we didn't actually know prior to our daughter's diagnosis.
32:29
And this piece of the rejection ADHD
32:33
often comes with what's called rejection sensitivity, and so they
32:36
feel they feel very deeply. And I think this plays into how we talked about
32:39
self worth as well. Right? That there's when they feel that's perceived that
32:43
someone has rejected them or that they have failed, they feel it sometimes
32:47
physically in their bodies, and it can feel it's very
32:50
overwhelming, and it can be very difficult to come back from. And one
32:54
of the things that has been really helpful for me is learning
32:58
to name and to honor emotions without letting them rule your life,
33:02
and I think that's an area where I have hope that the church
33:05
can grow Mhmm. Because I really feel a lot of
33:09
times we wanna say, well, you know, it's faith, not feelings. Right? We gotta just
33:12
trust God, know he's good, but I have all these feelings. And so for,
33:16
specifically, people with ADHD, how do you have faith when you have these
33:20
feelings that feel so viscerally real? Like you feel hurt
33:23
by this person, and maybe you found out they didn't intend to hurt you, maybe
33:26
you found out, like, there was never their intent, but you can feel it physically
33:30
in your body Mhmm. It's very difficult to honor
33:34
that and then also recognize what the truth actually is. And I think it
33:38
can be tempting when we overspiritualize things to just say, well, you know the truth.
33:41
You know the truth. Right? And but to actually say, no. I can honor it.
33:44
I can name this and say it makes sense that I feel this way because
33:48
of how my brain operates. Mhmm. It makes sense, and I
33:51
know it's true that this person did not mean to hurt me. Right? So there's
33:55
there's a tendency, I think, in Christian circles to, like, emphasize the truth and proclaim
33:58
the truth and name it. Right? But we have to first be able to name
34:02
that it makes sense what our body is going through because of our neurodiversity
34:06
and put that together with the truth because that's when we can actually access the
34:09
truth. Yeah. So, so good. And before we
34:12
close, I am curious, where have you felt
34:16
most connected with God,
34:20
most seen, most beloved? What what are some of those ways that
34:24
you and I know that's just your unique experience, but Mhmm. How have you
34:27
felt most seen and loved by God? I think
34:31
nature is a big part for me because there's a lot of physical sensations that
34:35
are calming in nature that help with emotional regulation and some of the impulsivity
34:39
that comes with ADHD. That would be my default and where I where I most
34:42
consistently feel seen and loved by God is by the beauty of nature and the
34:46
beauty of the story that I'm part of. But I think the most powerful
34:50
time that I've ever felt it was when I saw myself
34:53
screaming at my 3 year old daughter because she could not restrain her
34:57
impulses. And here I was yelling at her impulsively
35:01
because I could not restrain my impulses. And at my very worst, as
35:04
I was praying about it later, the holy spirit gave me this picture that he
35:07
came Jesus came and stood right beside me and put his arm around me as
35:10
I was screaming. And as I was doing that, when my
35:13
holy spirit was showing me that, I then looked at my daughter and I was
35:16
like, yes. But what about her? Now she suffered this trauma of me
35:20
failing as a parent. And Jesus said, no, no, I'm with her too. And
35:24
so he was there protecting her and surrounding her and loving her. And so
35:28
that to me has been the most powerful experience of the holy spirit showing
35:31
me that I'm loved, then that she's loved, and that that's where we start.
35:36
Thank you for joining another conversation on Journey with Care,
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