Latest / Leading Leaders Podcast with J Loren Norris / 4/17/2026 WHEN SUBTLE STORIES TELL YOU WHO THEY ARE - BELIEVE THEM

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4/17/2026 WHEN SUBTLE STORIES TELL YOU WHO THEY ARE - BELIEVE THEM · Leading Leaders Podcast with J Loren Norris

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He walked onto the stage with his sponsor, you know, the
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person who invited him to be there.
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And she asked him in front of a crowd of thousands of people.
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She said to this young man, about nine years old.
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So tell us, what do you want to be when you grow up?
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And she was pretty sure that his answer was going to be, I want
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to be a teacher. I want to be an educator.
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I want to, I want to be just like you.
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And he pulled her down so she would lean into his ear.
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And he held the mic away from himself.
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And he whispered his little 10 year old self.
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He said, is it OK if I just say I want to be happy?
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Now that my friends, is a profound question.
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Is it OK if I say I just want to be happy?
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And that's what we're going to talk about in this episode of
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Join us, get away and relax. I'm Jay Lauren Norris with
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Leading Leaders Podcast. There are many occasions where a
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leader will look at their team and they think to themselves, my
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top performers are slacking off. They're not they're not doing
1:57
the job that they're supposed to be doing.
1:59
They're not participating in the way that they should be
2:02
participating. They could be performing at an
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even higher level than they are right now and they're just,
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they're just not there. You're not exactly sure why
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that's the case. You just know that I'm not
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getting my KPIs, my goals, my standards of expectations for
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them. They're so far off.
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They must not care about their job anymore.
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They must not like what it is that they're doing.
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Sometimes that notion that thought they don't like what
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they're doing is so far down the line from the leaders thought.
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The leaders thought is, well, they must not want their job,
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they must not care about the paycheck.
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They don't care what we want. And so you think they're just
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slack it off for other reasons. And we never asked the question,
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why are you not giving 100%? Why are you not performing?
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We've got all the measurements. We know what time you're
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supposed to be here and what time you're supposed to leave,
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what the numbers are you're supposed to produce, what your
3:01
sales commissions are. I, I'm on a lot of calls with
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Grant Cardone's team and if you listen to Brandon Dawson and
3:09
Jared talk about how they track the performance, I mean, Jared
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can tell you and, and he has some spreadsheets, spreadsheet
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after spreadsheet after spreadsheet.
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Every department's head has one. They pull these spreadsheets out
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and they're like, how many minutes were you on the caller?
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How many seconds were you on the call?
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How many dials did you make today?
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How many outbound calls? How many inbound calls?
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How many of those led to a conversation?
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How many of those conversations led to a close?
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How many of those closes had a dollar value over X or under X?
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How many of those dollar values then led to a further sale?
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How many of those clients that you closed in that conversation
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had become lifelong clients? What's the lifelong value of
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that client? And now there's a metric to
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actually go back and say a lifelong client's worth $10,000.
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And that $10,000 came from the 15th phone call.
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And in the 15th phone call, there was a 7 minute
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conversation which led to an upgrade.
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And at some point, you lose the fact that that $10,000 sale is a
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human and that salesperson that closed the deal also most likely
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a human. Now, that may be changing the
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days of AI because I know there are a lot of people are moving
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their inbound sales and their customer service over to AI.
4:22
So you're not even talking to a human.
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But see, AI doesn't get tired. They don't have opinions.
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AI never wants a day off to go fishing.
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AI is never concerned about a child having a birthday party
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that they're going to miss because you know, it's a big
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sales day, it's the end of the month and you got to get
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commissions and AI doesn't have that problem.
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But see as we continue to move to a society that's more focused
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on AI profitability and margins, I mean, yeah, we may have to
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invest a lot up front in our data centers and our and our
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purchasing of the software and our managing our license,
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etcetera, etcetera. But once we've done that, once
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we've got all that money invested and out of the way, now
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all of a sudden we have a much more efficient workforce.
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Go back to the turn of the century, all right?
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Go back to the turn of the last century and what you're going to
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find is labor unions were created because big industry,
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big money didn't look at humans. They looked at profit margins
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and it didn't. They didn't care if it was
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migration or the work age or the work hours or the, or the
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limitations on workspaces. How long can we leave them in a
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coal mine? As long as they dig out enough
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coal, we'll compensate their families if we lose them.
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But we've got to get enough coal out of there for profit.
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We've got to get enough goods shipped across the sea to make a
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profit, and the more profit, the better.
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What we call slave labor is. It's not a colloquialism.
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Workers unions were put together because some industrialists were
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so driven by profit. They didn't care if they
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snatched mom out of the home and put her in the workplace, or
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snatched the kids out of the home or out of the school and
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put them in the workplace. A lot of the principles and
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practices that we have in Western society today are there
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because profit driven leaders forgot that they had humans
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doing the job. Now, it's easy today to get into
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a place where we have standards, we have KPIs, we have
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measurements, we have these ways of knowing that the team that
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we're working with is actually doing the job we're paying them
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to do. And all of those things are
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good. Those metrics are good.
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It's good to know what's going on in your business.
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In fact, there's an old management principle that says
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you cannot manage what you do not measure.
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So if you're not tracking how many phone calls they're making,
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how many emails they're sending, how long those conversations
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are, you're not going to know whether or not you're going to
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get results. And if you do get results, it
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might be an accident and a fluke and you're not going to know
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what to duplicate to get a better result, right?
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You could very easily look at your metrics and the four M's
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model, mimic, master, multiply. Well, if you don't have enough
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measurement of your model, how do you know what to mimic?
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You don't know if it's any good or not.
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But see, we still begin in that process very quickly to move
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from the human being to the human doing.
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And what we find often is that our team is not slacking.
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They're cracking. They're beginning to fragment
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themselves. They've, they have to, for
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sanity's sake, sometimes literally separate themselves in
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the job from themselves in life. They have to step away from the
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job for a moment. That's why they take long
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vacations. They have to step away from the
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job for a moment and try to gain their sanity back and ground
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themselves and go, who am I in this world?
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What is my purpose? Is it just to drive profit?
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Is it just to stuff money in the bank?
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Is it just to stack cash? And for some people, that's what
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drives them. No judgement.
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If that's what drives you, if that's why you're here, that's
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between you and your maker. But if your purpose is something
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different than just stacking cash, just buying stuff, just
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having things, then losing touch with that is a genuine crisis.
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We wonder why our mental health conditions across the world are
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what they are right now. And a lot of it has to do with
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that. Hard driving, fast-paced Twitch
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based society. I mean that social media and the
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phones and the video games and the conversations and, and
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everything seems to happen very, very fast.
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I've trained my own clients in the conversation concept that
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when someone asks a question, their anticipation because of
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the way they've been trained by social media, by regular media,
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by conversations they're having with Co workers and other people
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in the work environment. Their expectation of your answer
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is a list of bullet points or a very quick 30 second story that
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runs the entire gamut of everything they need to know
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very quickly. And it may end with, hey, go
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look here, watch this video, read this book.
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What they don't want is a Harry Potter novel.
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They ask a 10 second question, they expect a 32nd answer.
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They have 15 more questions for you where they expect 10 to 32nd
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answers and they ask the first question that you give them a
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900 page answer and you've lost them.
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It's no wonder as our brains are being trained to respond to
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things in very short times, to hear things in very short times,
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to pay attention to a very short time, a very limited amount of
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information. It's no wonder that when we set
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someone to a task that is repeated over and over and over
9:54
again for 8 hours a day or, or a task that takes months to
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complete, that we lose their attention.
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We lose their focus, and then they feel like my life is
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incomplete. I didn't get to check off the
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list. I didn't get to do the part that
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I wanted to. Now, I recently really talked
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about, even here on this podcast, I've talked about the
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six types of working genius and this idea of slacking versus
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cracking it. It seems completely remote from
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those two things, but I want you to think for a moment about
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personality profiles and assessments like disk, like
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strength finders. Those are two of my my 2
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favorites for personality. But the six types of working
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genius is a different kind of thing.
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It really looks at not just your personality, but your working
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style, and it asks the question, what really lights you up?
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What is it that that makes you happy about doing the work that
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you do? How do you know that the work
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you do is worthwhile to you? Many people have never had the
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opportunity to ask that question.
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In fact, in one of the blog podcasts about six types of
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working genius, Patrick Lincioni, who actually wrote the
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book, said, you know, we, we actually have had several
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people, dozens of people, thousands of people now go
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through this assessment. And one of the ladies went
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through the assessment and she said, well, you know, I've
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always been an attention to detail kind of person, always
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driving the bottom line, making sure the checklists were ticked
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off, etcetera, etcetera. She said, this is just the way I
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do my job. This is the way I do my work.
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A few years later, she came back and took the test again.
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The assessment gave her a completely different result.
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It was a different read. What she really enjoyed doing,
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what really lit her up in life, what was really in her
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wheelhouse, her comforts on her. And I could do this in my sleep
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and still love it, as opposed to this is what I do every day.
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And it's a grind. You know, the six types of
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working genius. There's really three areas
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you're genius where you're just, this is me, man.
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I can do this all day long. It's not even work to me.
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I just, I love it so much. I can do this.
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I'm competent at it. I can do it efficiently,
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productively. I can do it well.
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I can do it to meet all the standards, but I really don't
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like it or I don't even want to have to do that.
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I'll do it proficiently if I have to, but please find someone
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else to do that task. Now when you realize that if you
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could break down all of the tasks in your work environment
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into those 3 categories. I really love it and I thrive at
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it and it lights me up and it jazzes me to do it and, and I
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could do it really, really well. I could do it really well, but I
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don't like to I, I do it when I have to or please keep that away
12:45
from me. If you broke down all the work
12:47
in your environment, even in your own preferences, even in
12:50
your own work styles, it might change the way you approach your
12:55
job. Might also change the way you
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delegate the work that must be done into one of those three
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primary categories based on somebody else's desire to do the
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work. When this lady took the
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assessment the first time, she was actually on active duty in
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the military. Well, in the military, you
13:15
always check off every list, you complete everything, and you do
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what somebody else tells you to do.
13:20
Brainstorming, generally not the job of a soldier of any rank.
13:27
You're going to receive orders from somebody who has already
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thought it out. Your job is not to brainstorm or
13:31
figure it out. Your job is to do what you're
13:32
told. And that's what her first
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assignment said, Her first assessment said.
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When I get a job task, I do exactly what I'm told.
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I follow everything. I check off everything.
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That's that. I'm very diligent in that.
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The second time she took it, she realized that one of her
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greatest strengths was to step out of the the matter for a
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minute and say, what if we reimagined all of this?
13:56
What if we just wandered around, not wandered, wondered, What if
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we thought of new ways to do this?
14:04
What if we brainstorm this? What if we threw it out there
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and just see how many other ideas there are, other
14:09
innovations that we could do to to pull this off.
14:11
And what she found was her greater strength, her greater
14:16
capacity, her greater competence, and her greater joy
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in work was oriented around wonder more than finishing a
14:26
task. Now, as a leader, you might feel
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like my people have given up on the diligence necessary to get
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the job done. And I have to wonder, have you
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as a boss kind of forgotten what it is that's important to them?
14:41
What lights them up? Do you have the right people in
14:43
the right zone doing the right kind of job?
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And as a leader, you've got to ask those questions.
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But I'm going to give you a little insider trick that that
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you may not know. I've seen this work first hand
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and I practice it as a leader, as a communicator, sometimes
14:59
literally by just sitting in the back of the room and saying
15:02
absolutely nothing, just observing.
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It's a powerful tool. If you're a leader, I highly
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recommend you do it from time to time.
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Here's what you're looking for. You're looking for those little
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stories, micro stories, comments.
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Now, in attitude engineering, we're looking for those
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comments, those phrases, those repeated phrases especially that
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kind of indicate to us as leaders how people think and
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feel about their job, how I think, how I feel.
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Put those two together. That's an attitude.
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The attitude engineering process is to take how they think and
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how they feel as it comes out in language and then shift that
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language because it shifts how they think and how they feel.
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Now, here's what you need to know.
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If you hear people telling these subtle little stories about
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their life, about who they are, about what lights them up around
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the water cooler, in the break room, at lunch, at a banquet, at
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a dinner function for the company, they have these side
16:03
conversations that have nothing to do with work.
16:06
And if you'll listen closely to those stories, what you'll hear
16:09
is what's genuinely important to them.
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Oh, they'll, they'll be clear to their friends about the things
16:16
that they don't like to do at work, the things that drive them
16:19
a little bit into anxiety at work, a little bit off the rails
16:24
at work. It it just irks them to have to
16:27
do the same task over and over. And sometimes that'll be pointed
16:31
at a particular person. But see, it's in these subtle
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little stories that they tell to each other on their social
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media. Those subtle stories tell you
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who they are. Not the doing, not the KP is the
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standards, the expectations, but the being.
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The Who are they, What lights them up, What do they care
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about? What are they related to?
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And when you can hear through those subtle little stories what
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it is that really brings them joy in life, what it is that
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really brings them excitement in life.
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When you can shift their KP is their standards, their
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expectations, their metrics, their measures.
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When you can shift those levels of responsibility into a zone
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where they also get joy, fulfillment, completion, where
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they feel like I'm significant, I matter.
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My contribution isn't just the KPI.
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I'm actually doing something that I love to do, and what I
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love to do is good for my company.
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What I love to do is beneficial to my organization.
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When you see that shift take place, you're going to see a
17:46
whole lot more productivity out of them because they're now
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doing what they love to do and seeing the results from it
17:52
because they're more competent and they're more confident in
17:56
the thing that you need done. Now, I understand it's not
17:59
possible in every workplace. It's not possible in every
18:01
organization to shift people around years ago.
18:05
It's been probably close to a decade now, but there was a
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season that I worked with a group called ID, not ID Life,
18:13
the MLM, but ID within a larger organization.
18:17
And in this organization, we would send people through a
18:20
class where they would do three different assessments.
18:22
It was their spiritual gifts, it was their disc assessment, and
18:25
it was their strength finders. And then we would take the
18:28
results of those things and look at all the places within our
18:32
organization where there was a chance to volunteer.
18:36
As an ID coach, one of the things that I was tasked to do
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was to meet people who'd come out of this assessment and sit
18:43
down with them and help them look through all the various
18:45
volunteer roles and say which one of these volunteer roles or
18:48
which one or two or three of these are something that you
18:51
would really love to do and would accelerate your gifts.
18:56
I had a particular opportunity to sit down with a lady, one of
18:59
the ones that we were helping to place in a volunteer role.
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And I I had her resume, I had her spiritual gifts assessment.
19:06
I had her strengths finders, I had her own assessment of her
19:10
work skills. What is it that you're really
19:13
good at? And I looked at all of them and
19:16
I realized there were a couple of places where her passions,
19:20
her desires didn't match up. Her job, what she did for a
19:25
living and what she loved to do. There was no correlation between
19:29
them. And I asked her, I said, you
19:32
know, I see that you have a skill in video, in video
19:35
editing, color correction of framing, all of that kind of
19:39
stuff that that's a pretty high level skill we have need for
19:45
volunteers in that capacity. Is that something you like to
19:49
do? And I watched her face as she
19:53
answered the question and she looked me right in the eye and
19:55
she said sure. And those eyebrows told me
19:59
everything I needed to know was a little bit of a dispensive.
20:01
It was like, look, whatever you know, if that's where you need
20:04
me, I'm willing to serve. I'm I'm willing to do that.
20:07
It is my skill set. It is what I get paid for.
20:09
I'm pretty good at it. If that's what you need, I'm
20:13
willing to do it. And as soon as I saw the
20:17
eyebrows, I turned the paper over and I said, let me ask you
20:20
something if budget was no issue.
20:25
If you could do whatever you want to do in your off time, if
20:28
you're not sitting behind an editing Bay or standing in front
20:31
of a camera, what would you want to do?
20:35
And I could see a little tears form in the corner of her eyes.
20:37
And she said, you know what I'd love to do?
20:39
I'd love to host big parties. And I said, what do you mean?
20:43
She said, I I just wish I could invite people to my home and
20:46
have, you know, the trays of hors d'oeuvres and, and walk
20:48
around and welcome them and introduce them to other people
20:51
and, and let them build relationships.
20:53
I love to watch people build relationships and I don't even
20:55
have to be involved in them. I just want to be the place
20:58
where that kind of stuff happens.
21:00
I said, OK, and, and what would that look like on a weekend?
21:04
And she said, you know, if I could invite the, the
21:07
dignitaries and the VIPs and then introduce them to, to
21:10
everybody else and say, you know, I, I just want you to be
21:13
here and be comfortable and know that you're taking care of and,
21:15
and you can let all the, the other stuff in the world slip
21:18
away. I'll take care of everything
21:20
while you're here. I said did you know that here in
21:24
this workplace, here in this organization, we actually have a
21:28
budget for exactly that. We actually have a kitchen staff
21:34
that prepares what we send out on would be silver platters to,
21:39
to AVIP room for the people who are here as guest speakers and
21:42
those who are here to perform. And when they come here, and we
21:46
don't want them to be bombarded by the crowd, we give them
21:50
special access and they come to these, you know, secret security
21:53
rooms and, and they wait for their time to perform.
21:57
And while they're there, they're kind of locked away,
21:59
sequestered. They're on their own.
22:01
There's no, nobody there other than themselves to kind of
22:03
entertain them or make them feel at home.
22:06
Did you know we actually have volunteers now?
22:08
You've got to have a high level of discretion and you've got to
22:10
be able to, to protect their privacy and protect their
22:13
security and, and know that you're not going to lead a bunch
22:16
of people in there. You're just going to serve them.
22:21
If, if the budget was unlimited and the opportunity was there to
22:24
walk right in that room and bring them whatever they wanted,
22:27
a special coffee or a drink or a snack or whatever else, how
22:30
would you feel about doing that? And I thought she was going to
22:33
jump across the table and hug me.
22:35
She was so excited, so lit up. She's like, that's exactly what
22:39
I want to do, but I don't have the kind of budget to do that.
22:42
I, I can't buy those kind of snacks.
22:44
I, I don't have an apartment that's worth entertaining
22:47
people. And I said, again, I'm talking
22:49
about right here on premises and I'm talking about the fact that
22:51
the organization already pays for all those things.
22:54
We just need a few more people who will actually facilitate
22:58
that. Go to the kitchen and prepare
23:00
the trays, go to the coffee shop and get their coffee made to
23:04
order and and then deliver it to them so they don't have to
23:07
wander through the crowd. Would would you be willing to do
23:10
that? And she was tears of joy.
23:13
She was ecstatic. She said, would I be willing?
23:16
Nothing. When can I start?
23:18
That's exactly what I want to do with my life.
23:21
I, I want to be in hospitality. I mean, I can do video, but I
23:24
want to be in hospitality. And it reminded me that on a
23:28
regular basis, we tend to put people in a category that
23:37
profits us. We've put people in a space
23:41
where what we're asking is what can I get from them?
23:45
How can I maximize the relationship I have with them?
23:50
What can I do to get more out of them, more for the bottom line,
23:54
more for the profitability, more for the customer service?
23:57
What else could I do? And, and what often happens is
24:00
we find a little gap where it seems like they've got a little
24:03
more time than they've got work to do.
24:05
And, and we find a little work that needs to be done and we
24:08
throw it on top of them. And eventually we've got this
24:13
chef salad of tasks where nothing really seems the same.
24:17
It's, it's all kind of related because it's all in the same
24:20
bowl. But that's the only
24:21
relationship. You got eggs and you got bacon
24:23
and you got cheese and you got tomatoes, you got olives and you
24:25
got salad. And you're looking at it going,
24:27
which one of these is really who you are?
24:31
Well, none of them really. I'm a toast kind of girl.
24:35
But the challenge for management, for leadership is
24:40
that at some point we've got to throw the brakes on and go, I
24:42
can't just lead people with KPISI, can't just lead people
24:48
with metrics and measurements. I've got to lead people as
24:52
people. And I'm going to be honest and
24:55
tell you, as we make this major cultural, economic, geopolitical
25:01
shifts where so much more of the work is done by robots, by AI,
25:06
by technological devices than by humans, I'm afraid we're going
25:10
to find ourselves in a place as leaders where our touch with
25:14
humanity is eroded. We could easily find ourselves
25:20
losing touch with our humanness all together.
25:25
I want to challenge you as a leader to remember you are a
25:29
human and for the most part, you lead humans.
25:35
It requires more of us as leaders to maintain our
25:39
humanity, to realize that people have an emotional connection to
25:43
the work that they do. It's called purpose.
25:45
It's called value. It's called significance.
25:48
They also have a human connection to the people around
25:51
them. They want to know that they
25:53
matter to other people and that other people matter to them.
25:56
They don't want to be so wrapped up in their job that they lose
25:58
sight of the other humans that they're serving.
26:02
They don't want to forget about the customers.
26:05
You think I'm kidding? Just ask, is there anyone you
26:09
know who loves to call into customer service and be handled
26:13
by a robot or an automated device?
26:18
I, I can tell you the number of times that I call into an 800
26:21
number, a service number. I just want a quick solution.
26:24
And instead what I get is your number.
26:31
So and so, so and so. A call will be made to you in 45
26:35
minutes. Would you like to speak to a
26:38
human? Yeah.
26:39
The odds that you're going to speak to a human are 0.
26:41
And so all of a sudden, my humanness gets a little
26:44
frustrated, a little angry, a little irritated, and I feel
26:47
like I'm being disrespected because I'm not important enough
26:50
for another human to talk to. I only get the automated system,
26:53
which half the time can't understand what I'm saying or
26:56
process the thought or the problem that I have, because it
26:58
doesn't fit in the menu that somebody thought of as a
27:01
potential problem. None of us want to be there as a
27:05
customer. Most of us don't want to be
27:09
there as a team member or an employee.
27:13
And as a leader, is your role to see to it that humanity is not
27:17
forgotten in this transition? Yeah, there's work that humans
27:21
have to do, but humans are not human doings.
27:24
They're human beings. They have feelings, they have
27:27
emotions, they have human connections, they have
27:29
relationships, and all of those matter.
27:32
And the more you can tap into what lights them up, what gives
27:36
them joy, that makes them feel complete and fulfilled in the
27:40
assignments that you give to them, the more you're going to
27:42
find not only work satisfaction, job satisfaction, but a deeper
27:46
correlation between performance and relationship.
27:51
As a leader, that's on you. And if you have forgotten that,
27:55
you may think all your team is slacking.
27:58
They're not slacking, they're cracking.
28:01
They've reached a breaking point.
28:03
And if you don't fix that soon, you might lose them.
28:06
I'm Jay Lauren Norris with Leading leaders podcast for
28:09
Tella Like it is TV. Have a blessed day.
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