Latest / The Virtual Couch / Turning Negativity Into Insight: Julie De Jesus on Interviewing Kevin Franke and What the Comments Reveal About Us

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Turning Negativity Into Insight: Julie De Jesus on Interviewing Kevin Franke and What the Comments Reveal About Us · The Virtual Couch

• 0:00
  Music.
• 0:22
  Hey everybody, welcome to today's episode of fill in the blank with your podcast.
• 0:26
  I think this is going to run on love ADHD, possibly waking up to narcissism
• 0:29
  as well as a virtual couch.
• 0:31
  Regardless, I am your host, Tony Overbay. I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist.
• 0:34
  And today's episode is a special one because I get to talk with one of my good
• 0:39
  friends, Julie DeJesus, formerly known as Julie Lee.
• 0:43
  You may know Julie as my co-host on love ADHD.
• 0:46
  She was passing through Arizona, so we got her in studio, and she recently had
• 0:52
  a chance to interview Kevin Franke,
• 0:53
  the former husband of Ruby Franke, whose story has been widely covered in the
• 0:59
  Hulu documentary, The Devil and the Family, which I can't recommend enough.
• 1:03
  It's a lot, but it's so well done.
• 1:05
  You might expect that today's conversation would be about breaking down her
• 1:08
  interview with Kevin, and that was the goal. but what we ended up talking about,
• 1:13
  what struck me the most was the reaction that Julie received after her interview aired.
• 1:20
  And it was a lot of criticism, which is part of being a content creator,
• 1:26
  which sounds so pretentious.
• 1:27
  But the comments, the strangers on the internet who suddenly felt like they
• 1:31
  were very confident, very entitled to tell Julie who she should be, how she should show up,
• 1:35
  all the things that she was doing wrong, how she should have conducted herself
• 1:38
  and a lot of what Kevin should have done, despite the fact that if you have
• 1:43
  listened to my podcast for a while, I will maintain that no one knows what it
• 1:47
  feels like to be him or you or me.
• 1:50
  And so that is truly something else, adorable, precious, that you can tell someone
• 1:55
  else how they should have lived their life or how they should feel.
• 1:59
  We can be genuinely curious. We can also say to ourselves, man,
• 2:03
  I would imagine I would handle it differently.
• 2:05
  But when you can get past that, then you can actually be curious and take in
• 2:09
  the material and really try to understand what that must have been like.
• 2:13
  I think we have such a desire to find connection or a community or a purpose,
• 2:21
  and we want certainty and we want to understand and we want to know all of these
• 2:24
  things that are just, they're wired. They're part of our default.
• 2:28
  So at this 30,000 foot view.
• 2:31
  It's like we're saying, well, I'm a human and he's a human, so I'm sure we all
• 2:36
  do the same things. So he shouldn't have done that because I wouldn't do that.
• 2:40
  Let me be very dramatically clear that the last thing that I am trying to say
• 2:44
  is that it is not okay for someone to have their own opinion.
• 2:48
  As a matter of fact, I love the concept of everything that we interact with. It's our muse.
• 2:53
  It's a chance to take a look at what I am seeing or what I'm hearing and what
• 2:57
  does it bring up for me? Does it bring up some big emotions?
• 2:59
  Am I offended? Do I want justice in this moment?
• 3:02
  But if I find myself then just wanting to get rid of that discomfort by telling
• 3:06
  that person what they did was wrong, that is, in my opinion,
• 3:11
  a pretty emotionally immature way to react. I can have a reaction.
• 3:15
  I feel angry. I feel frustrated. I feel sad.
• 3:19
  But that is a me thing. Why is it that I feel angry or sad? Oh,
• 3:23
  it's because I really can't imagine what that was like for Kevin and Ruby's kids.
• 3:29
  Or I might find myself having a lot of empathy for Kevin, and I didn't even
• 3:33
  anticipate that that would be the case when I hear his story.
• 3:36
  Or I might have a lot of anger because that anger is a me thing,
• 3:40
  and hearing his story or even watching the interview with Kevin and Julie brings up some emotion.
• 3:46
  But that, again, is my chance to take a look at what is happening to me because
• 3:51
  of this interview, this person, this thing that I'm interacting with.
• 3:55
  What we'll talk about a lot in today's episode is what people do with that immediate
• 4:00
  reaction, because all of a sudden they have big feelings.
• 4:03
  And I think if we have never really learned what to do with those feelings,
• 4:07
  then we want to diffuse them.
• 4:09
  We want to put them over onto somebody else. And okay, I don't like the way
• 4:12
  I feel. So obviously he is doing what he is doing wrong.
• 4:15
  He is doing his life wrong, even though no one knows what it feels like to be someone else.
• 4:21
  So when you can recognize the big feelings, absolutely welcome them in.
• 4:26
  What are the stories that they are telling you?
• 4:28
  Maybe that story is, I would sure hope I would never do something like that.
• 4:32
  But if I'm being really honest, I have no idea.
• 4:34
  I've never been that person walking in their shoes.
• 4:37
  Julie is one of the kindest, most genuine people I know.
• 4:41
  It is really funny and you'll hear it in this interview. And if you have listened
• 4:44
  to any of the Love ADHD podcast, that it's kind of funny that Julie did not
• 4:48
  know that she had ADHD until later in life.
• 4:52
  You will see ADHD on full display by both Julie and me.
• 4:56
  But when I first started seeing some of the comments roll in that we'll talk
• 5:00
  about today, honestly, I felt all the feelings.
• 5:02
  My heart sank because I worried about Julie because it's one thing to create
• 5:06
  content and another to suddenly be on the receiving end of a tidal wave of opinions
• 5:10
  from people who don't know you, but they do feel something. And if I feel it, it must be true.
• 5:15
  It's one of the signs of emotional maturity that I think most of us do.
• 5:19
  I was going to say we all do.
• 5:20
  So then if I feel it, it must be true. And then we will typically slip into
• 5:24
  the, then I'm going to assume that these feelings must be factual.
• 5:28
  And that really is what fascinates me. I know I still do it as well,
• 5:31
  especially as I spend more time working with people and talking about emotional immaturity.
• 5:36
  And I believe very strongly that we are all emotionally immature until we're
• 5:42
  not. And then even then, it is a lifelong process.
• 5:45
  When we don't do our own work, our own mental health work, we will often confuse feeling with truth.
• 5:50
  So we feel something really strongly and so it must be true.
• 5:53
  So if I feel that Kevin is a weak husband, then he is weak. If I feel like Julie
• 5:58
  should have conducted herself differently, then she must have done it wrong.
• 6:01
  And in essence, now I'm saying, I feel that it must be true.
• 6:03
  Now I need you to prove to me that you are not doing the thing that I think
• 6:08
  you're doing, which you can already see that that game's a little bit rigged.
• 6:12
  And it is such a common pattern and emotionally immature responses,
• 6:16
  mistaking these emotions for reality, projecting that reality onto others and
• 6:20
  now saying, now start dancing and let's see if I believe what you're going to say.
• 6:24
  What you'll hear in this episode is Julie and me unpacking some of the comments
• 6:28
  together with a lot of humor and honesty.
• 6:30
  We talk about what it is like to navigate
• 6:33
  being on the receiving end of criticism and why people
• 6:37
  are quick to give unsolicited advice or past judgment and then how black and
• 6:41
  white thinking keeps us from this genuine curiosity and i really believe that's
• 6:45
  where we grow we read some of the youtube comments out loud we respond in real
• 6:49
  time and i think that makes for some definite laughs and there's some takeaways we also,
• 6:55
  dive into gaslighting trauma bonding and why leaving abusive situations is.
• 7:00
  Rarely as simple, if ever, as outsiders want to believe.
• 7:04
  And I love that Kevin talked about this in his interview with Julie.
• 7:08
  I call it whole object relations, how somebody can feel anger,
• 7:11
  grief, gratitude, and love, and sadness, and frustration all at one time.
• 7:15
  That is the beginnings of emotional maturity.
• 7:19
  Also, we talk about why hurt people so often end up hurting people,
• 7:22
  and how online comments can reveal more about the commenter's inner world than
• 7:27
  even about the person that they're critiquing.
• 7:30
  And then we handle a little bit about projection and shame and black and white
• 7:34
  thinking when you see it, whether it's in your relationships,
• 7:36
  your family, or the comment section of YouTube.
• 7:39
  And Julie and I also talk about the cruise that we're co-hosting this January.
• 7:43
  We would love to see you there.
• 7:45
  The link will be in the show notes. If you'd like to keep up with me with other
• 7:48
  things, please follow me on Instagram at virtual.couch and TikTok at virtualcouch
• 7:53
  and head to tonyoverbay.com, sign up for the newsletter.
• 7:56
  Those are starting to get out with more regularity. And that is the best way
• 7:59
  to hear about upcoming courses,
• 8:01
  events, groups, including my Path Back Online recovery group,
• 8:04
  my men's emotional architects group,
• 8:05
  my private women's Facebook group for those navigating relationships with emotionally
• 8:09
  immature or narcissistic individuals or people with strong narcissistic traits,
• 8:14
  whether that is a spouse, a parent, a boss, a sibling, a religious leader.
• 8:18
  And I will maintain a cat because the majority of cats that I have met do in
• 8:23
  fact exhibit very strong narcissistic traits bordering, dare I say, on psychopathy.
• 8:28
  So whether you came here curious about Kevin Franke or interested in Julie's
• 8:32
  experience, or you just want to learn a little bit more about emotional maturity
• 8:35
  and action, this episode has a little bit of everything, some hard truths,
• 8:39
  I think some good laughs and some insight on, I think, why people say the things that they do.
• 8:45
  And what do we even do with that? I am so grateful that Julie was willing to
• 8:48
  sit down and to have this conversation, let's get right to it.
• 8:51
  And honestly, one of my dreams, I think, but I know, first of all,
• 8:54
  I want to say, hey, welcome to the deep end of the internet,
• 8:57
  right, Julie? Are you starting? Yeah, we're starting.
• 8:59
  Okay, great. Julie DeJesus. Are you used to it yet?
• 9:02
  But I love it. Whenever I say it or realize, I'm like, oh, yeah,
• 9:05
  I just love my new last name a lot. Do you take offense when people still refer to you as Julie Lee?
• 9:09
  So much offense. I can tell. No, zero offense. I literally, as you're coming
• 9:13
  here, I just changed it in my sister's phone because it still comes up as Julie Lee.
• 9:16
  And so now it has DeJesus in my phone. I love that. Did it have the updated picture too?
• 9:20
  That's amazing. This is meant to be. Let's talk about our cruise because I'm
• 9:23
  pumped. I'm pumped. I didn't realize this shows how much I'm not paying attention.
• 9:27
  I came and apologized to you for not really promoting it as much as I could.
• 9:31
  And I just assumed you were out there, pounding the pavement, getting the word out.
• 9:34
  Nor to nor knocking. But I think you said, what percentage of A-ing it were
• 9:39
  you doing? Half. Half. And I said, I'm a fifth.
• 9:41
  I'm like a half of one cheek. The people that really care are signing up. Yeah, they are.
• 9:45
  I appreciate it. There's still plenty of time. It's the end of January.
• 9:48
  Yes, there's still spots. Flying and not swimming. We're on a boat.
• 9:51
  Cruising. Cruising out of Galveston, Texas. Correct.
• 9:54
  January 26th. Fourth. Fourth. fourth but the
• 9:58
  we will be on the boat on the 26th coming
• 10:01
  for sure i was saying the 26th is a really i mean that's an important part
• 10:04
  of it yeah day absolutely it's midweek it's mid-cruise
• 10:07
  yeah it's the most important day it is probably one of our creative workshops is
• 10:10
  on that day yeah so we're gonna do creative workshops dinner i'm super
• 10:14
  excited because some of the people that i do know they're coming and i
• 10:16
  i'm gonna sound egotistical but i'll say you might
• 10:19
  even get to eat dinner with me and it's my own family yeah
• 10:22
  they're saying i think we'll pass like i
• 10:25
  think we will find another place for dinner right yeah that is
• 10:28
  what's nice about the cruise though is because yes we
• 10:31
  have these couple workshops i think when it gets closer we
• 10:34
  might even send out an email about some possible excursions if we want to
• 10:37
  do them all together which would be sweet but what's nice is really like the rest of
• 10:40
  the time you can just cruise with your family and royal caribbean's doing kids
• 10:43
  sale free which i did not know when we started this i'm pretty stoked about
• 10:46
  that because then people can come with their families and just have a fun vacation
• 10:49
  hopefully a discounted rate because we got it all in bulk room but then we can
• 10:53
  talk mental health stuff and have a good time And this is what I've been saying
• 10:56
  when I've been talking about it or the advertising it is I 100% if you find me on that boat,
• 11:01
  ask me anything, your marriage questions, your ADHD.
• 11:05
  Anxiety, depression, narcissism, emotional maturity. I love this stuff. I do.
• 11:09
  That's what's awesome. No, you really do. You're not like you don't go run into your cabin and hide.
• 11:14
  Let's talk. I think they'll have to be. So there could be more boundaries.
• 11:17
  Right. Can you get off the table, please? He is the right person to me and get
• 11:20
  free therapy. I think I said in one of the ads, man, if you find me with soft
• 11:23
  serve ice cream in hand And then I said, okay, I probably won't be carrying
• 11:25
  it around in hand. I'll have it in a bowl.
• 11:27
  Or in the cones. A cone. And then ask me anything, please.
• 11:31
  So that'd be fun. And I don't know what our workshops are yet,
• 11:33
  but those will be fun. You'll know.
• 11:34
  We're going to talk all about mental health and thriving and stuff and resilience
• 11:37
  and all that. So you're going to have good stuff to add to that. I'm excited.
• 11:40
  Okay. So there's a link in all the show notes all the time. Come sign up.
• 11:44
  We're both going to put more effort.
• 11:46
  I was going to say A's into the promoting it. Right? We're excited. Yeah. Okay.
• 11:51
  Is Love ADHD going to come back? I've been asked this a number of times.
• 11:54
  That's such a question and that is TBD.
• 11:57
  Yeah. Why did it disappear, Julie?
• 12:00
  Wow we both have adhd it got so funny though
• 12:02
  it was so fun though and it was but then every
• 12:05
  time someone this is the problem is everyone some time someone talks to
• 12:08
  me and is like i love this i binged it i just i'm like
• 12:11
  we gotta do this but you and i both have other
• 12:14
  ventures that also pay our bills and so it's
• 12:17
  a little bit tricky but i love it yeah it will come back so much yes it will
• 12:21
  come back that's what you just said it will come back it will but today we are
• 12:25
  here to talk about the interview you did with kevin frankie yes first i am curious
• 12:29
  and we'll get to the fun stuff i was gonna say when we first hit record i would
• 12:33
  love to just go through the youtube comments and then.
• 12:36
  React to them as a therapist no i want to can
• 12:39
  we please yeah i actually wanted to do a little at some
• 12:42
  point i want to you know how they do unlike jimmy fallon how you just read them with a straight
• 12:45
  face how did you score the interview and
• 12:48
  i loved what you talked about what is the name of the documentary i watched
• 12:50
  it immediately yeah it's called devil in the family the
• 12:54
  fall of ruby frankie and he said it was the most watched documentary
• 12:57
  ever and it was so good it really did a
• 13:00
  really good job and he even kevin feels
• 13:03
  like they did a really good job and it's not like he's
• 13:06
  painted as a perfect person on it he's been very i've been really impressed
• 13:10
  with his just ownership of whoa mistakes were made and whoa i would do things
• 13:16
  differently and also just really honest with the level of gaslighting and brainwashing
• 13:20
  and just noticing something by chad the other day I was watching an interview by him.
• 13:23
  Chad's his oldest son. The oldest son, yeah. Who has quite a big following online.
• 13:27
  And I know that Chad and... Sherry. Sherry, thank you. Which I did read her
• 13:31
  book. It really was amazing.
• 13:32
  I heard it was phenomenal. I actually reached out to her. Sherry,
• 13:34
  if you ever watched this.
• 13:36
  And said, I'd love to have you on the virtual couch. But at that point, it just went nuts.
• 13:39
  But it was such a good book. I haven't read the book yet, but I've heard such good things.
• 13:43
  But I've just been really impressed as I've listened to some of their interviews
• 13:46
  and them describe it. I feel like...
• 13:49
  I've seen both of them be compassionate towards Kevin for his situation and also say what's true.
• 13:57
  And also, I've seen Kevin be so proud of them.
• 14:00
  And I just think that has been a really cool thing to see. Not always common
• 14:03
  in our world today. People want things to be black and white.
• 14:05
  But I've seen some really neat understanding just from afar.
• 14:08
  The way Kevin speaks of his children, he's really proud of them.
• 14:10
  Kevin talked about something that I call whole object relations,
• 14:13
  which is the ability to have multiple emotions in one thing.
• 14:17
  Didn't you love that part? Yeah, it was so good because he can be angry and
• 14:21
  sad and frustrated and grateful all at once.
• 14:24
  And that's what so many of the YouTube comments are about. Exactly.
• 14:27
  And even things attacking me is like, how can you have this person on that was
• 14:30
  involved with someone that did this?
• 14:32
  Or how can you say you loved her? And I don't know about you,
• 14:34
  when I watched the documentary, I was so touched at that part where he says,
• 14:38
  this is the person. I was in the hospital room. This is the person.
• 14:41
  And I just thought, this is real life. This is what it's really like to be in
• 14:44
  a relationship with someone who starts to go down a path you don't agree on.
• 14:48
  But it's not all at once, like the frog in the water.
• 14:51
  So it's a little at a time. Very little. And over years, that's the thing. Years and years.
• 14:55
  And the brain craves certainty so much. So we're giving people the consistent benefit of the doubt.
• 15:01
  We're making it about us. Maybe I need to do something different or all that.
• 15:05
  I don't want them to think this.
• 15:07
  I'm not going to bring this up. And you do that over and over again.
• 15:10
  And over time, it just is. And I think that's what's fascinating.
• 15:13
  Now, one of the things I also want to do, I have the transcript and I should
• 15:16
  have highlighted places, but there were several places where my good friend
• 15:20
  Julie Lee or Julie DeJesus mentioned things and I'm like, oh,
• 15:24
  here she goes. She's about to say, oh, I learned these things from my friend Tony.
• 15:28
  Do you know of any of those things? You talked about, hey, we're all a unique combination.
• 15:31
  And you got a couple of them, right? Nature, nurture, birth order,
• 15:33
  DNA, abandonment, rejection, hope, spheres. I did not first hear that from you.
• 15:37
  Oh, yes, you did, my friend. That is my spiel.
• 15:39
  I've got a t-shirt that says all those things, as a matter of fact.
• 15:41
  And I even thought about- You came up with that? Yes. Not my therapist when
• 15:44
  I first got into therapy. No. When we'd never met. No. It was all from you? Yes.
• 15:48
  I mean, the whole speech of them. The whole speech of them. There was.
• 15:51
  And talking about getting out of discomfort, radical acceptance,
• 15:54
  psychological flexibility.
• 15:55
  And I kept going, here she goes. she's about to throw me a little
• 15:57
  little bone here nope she's like and as
• 16:00
  i've always thought all by myself and came up with on my own
• 16:03
  i've done my own research right but i'm
• 16:06
  not bitter i feel safe blink twice no that
• 16:10
  was my immaturity and i'm being honest the super funny part about that is
• 16:13
  i remember i had a one of the first years i was
• 16:16
  a therapist in my early 30s so just you know a few years ago
• 16:19
  um insert laughter sorry i
• 16:22
  zoned out for a second because i think this is a fake nail that's on my leg
• 16:26
  and it's sparkling black is that one of your clients probably yeah sitting and
• 16:30
  fiddling with it okay what is this so i'm so sorry no you've been in therapy
• 16:33
  30 years no it was quite the opposite of that i was saying in my early 30s a
• 16:38
  few years ago oh okay anyway yeah
• 16:42
  now i can't remember the joke i was gonna make dang it no wonder oh it was there
• 16:45
  was okay a real of that part right here and with the question of why have you
• 16:48
  guys why are you guys gonna do the.
• 16:51
  This is the answer okay but there was i still
• 16:53
  remember the kid there was a kid and he was in his
• 16:56
  teenage years i was a brand new therapist and i still remember him and he said
• 17:00
  nobody likes to be showed on and i thought loved it so i started saying that
• 17:04
  is you yeah well what's funny is i know that it's this other guy and i'll hear
• 17:07
  other people say it and now i'll say how dare they i'll hear somebody like i
• 17:11
  don't know oprah winfrey or brenne brown i'm like do they listen to my stuff
• 17:14
  i mean that's how egotistical i can be,
• 17:16
  100 it's fascinating but i even i know who told
• 17:19
  me that but i'm not gonna say it out loud because i don't want them to have the credit no
• 17:22
  i said it first okay we can read the youtube comments
• 17:25
  but how did you score the interview because when you
• 17:27
  texted me i remember and i just was like wait what you're like
• 17:31
  oh guess who i'm interviewing and then the funniest part was then i
• 17:34
  completely forgot someone that would care i did and i did and then
• 17:37
  there were some people that are like not knowing how to react i was like tony okay i know
• 17:39
  that i texted you about wanting to connect kevin at
• 17:42
  some point because a lot of the people that i work with are trauma
• 17:45
  bonded to a narcissistic person and that's
• 17:48
  that intermittent reinforcement the person that gives you the punishment also delivers the
• 17:51
  reward and kevin has lived it i have guys right now that have honestly said
• 17:56
  before you interviewed him that if there was anybody that would really understand
• 18:00
  it would be a guy like kevin frankie for real and that's why i want him to know
• 18:04
  that yeah because i see him and in the comments we'll talk about that and you
• 18:08
  literally are working with men who have been in constantly.
• 18:11
  And i've sent your interview with kevin and
• 18:14
  when he when he talks about the you can't tell him two plus two
• 18:17
  is four could you tell i was like bawling through that whole i
• 18:21
  don't know what about two plus two that just brings up so many feelings for
• 18:24
  me having well because everybody else is telling them come on man you know it's
• 18:27
  four right and then even if they're like ah and the advice he gives of how to
• 18:31
  help someone get out of it was just so that's the part that when i read the
• 18:34
  comments as a person a therapist now 20 years and of working with narcissistic
• 18:38
  and emotionally immature relationships,
• 18:40
  the trauma bond is a very consistent piece of that, whether it's intense like
• 18:44
  Kevin's, where he's willing to.
• 18:47
  Be separated from his kids for a year which no one will understand no one will
• 18:51
  understand unless they've been in his exact situation even then you can't even
• 18:54
  understand and when i'm talking with my clients it's not that i don't think
• 18:57
  like you know this is crazy right i'm a human but then i also know that has
• 19:02
  worked so far zero percent of times and helping somebody out of a trauma bond,
• 19:05
  it's just like when you're working with somebody and they have hallucinations
• 19:08
  so they hear voices the first thing you do is you don't say oh no you don't
• 19:10
  it's like tell me about that you know what is that like approach with curiosity
• 19:13
  so anyway how did you get the interview so it's actually I think it's really cool.
• 19:19
  Had a mutual friend who was friends with Kevin long before any of this happened,
• 19:24
  hadn't heard from him in a while, and had just reached out to me saying,
• 19:28
  hey, I feel like I can't imagine that what he's been through the last couple
• 19:33
  years, and I'm in contact with him now.
• 19:35
  And I'd love for him to be able to go to dinner with some of us that I know
• 19:38
  would be safe people for him.
• 19:40
  And so I was honored that they just asked me, hey, how would you feel about
• 19:44
  this? And I was like, yeah, but I did. I hadn't watched the documentary.
• 19:47
  And then I did before going to dinner with him, which was fine.
• 19:53
  Either way, I assume that he walks in and thinks everybody's seen it.
• 19:56
  But I don't know. So it's this whole awkward thing of do I play dumb and just
• 19:59
  be like, oh, hi, what's your name? Because I wouldn't have recognized him if
• 20:02
  I had not watched the documentary before.
• 20:03
  Because when that all went down, it actually was in my hometown,
• 20:07
  really close to where I lived.
• 20:09
  I remember I had an aunt from the East Coast text me and say,
• 20:11
  hey, have you heard about this?
• 20:12
  Almost saying which your influencer crowd in utah look at this you know and
• 20:17
  at the time i was like i don't want to hear about that but just i was going
• 20:20
  through my own stuff i didn't want to just really consume a lot of things that
• 20:23
  felt negative and so it had been a couple years since that happened and yeah
• 20:27
  so we just went to dinner my husband and i with a few friends and met him there
• 20:32
  and it wasn't even about him it was just about some friends getting together
• 20:35
  and inviting him into a group that we already had.
• 20:38
  And I just, he sat across from me and I just instantly felt.
• 20:43
  I wanted to learn so much from him. I had so much to learn from him.
• 20:47
  And my husband and I both were really impressed with him. And my husband's never seen the documentary.
• 20:51
  I am glad I watched it. But also, I don't know that my interactions with him
• 20:55
  would have been that different had I not.
• 20:57
  Everybody we meet every day has stuff we don't know about. His just happens to be public.
• 21:01
  And so, I don't think it really changes how I interact with him.
• 21:04
  Can I ask a very vulnerable question of you and then you'll see where I'm going with this?
• 21:06
  I like what you said that he can walk in and probably would assume that there
• 21:11
  are a lot of people that would recognize him. Yeah. I haven't asked him that.
• 21:14
  Because I've had a handful of people that have had some level of pretty big fame or notoriety.
• 21:19
  And we've talked about this and because that's a thing, it's a tangible feeling
• 21:22
  with even you being out there and having video.
• 21:25
  And do you ever, you get recognized because you've told me about that. I mean, and I have too.
• 21:29
  That's why I'm saying it's very vulnerable because it's going to sound egotistical,
• 21:32
  but I'm just saying it's fascinating because all it takes is a couple of times like that.
• 21:36
  And I know you kind of think maybe somebody around here does, right?
• 21:40
  There is a weird thing where I've gotten recognized a couple times.
• 21:43
  And then there's this weird thing where your brain's like, oh,
• 21:46
  everyone knows who I am. And you're like, what do I do with this?
• 21:48
  And you're not that, but because the few people that do, all of a sudden you're
• 21:52
  like, wait, am I picking my nose?
• 21:54
  And it's this funny thing, but it's very stressful because I feel like I need
• 21:57
  to be like a perfect human being that has answers.
• 22:01
  I'm a mess a lot of the time as we all are, but it is funny how it just takes
• 22:06
  a couple of times and you're like, does everybody know me?
• 22:08
  And like, no one's heard of you. And that's what I love. So that's why I said
• 22:11
  it's very vulnerable because, and we've been, we moved here to Arizona.
• 22:14
  It's been a year and a half ago. And it was maybe the second week that we were
• 22:18
  here and we're at a softball game.
• 22:19
  Somebody recognized me and I'm sitting there with my wife and two of my daughters.
• 22:23
  And so then of course that sets the table. And I got recognized in the Phoenix airport early on.
• 22:28
  And it's kind of like not since, but you'd get those two early and all of a
• 22:32
  sudden I'm walking around the mall and I'm like, I don't know. You can't go anywhere.
• 22:35
  Are there cameras in the bushes? Like, I don't know. And I'll joke with my wife
• 22:39
  when we're heading out. I'm like, I forgot a Sharpie.
• 22:42
  Like, I don't want to let the people down. Come on. I don't think she thinks it's very funny.
• 22:45
  But so I can't, I go back to, but I cannot imagine actually thinking that people,
• 22:52
  that the majority of people, if you have a Hulu documentary.
• 22:55
  Yeah. He actually is recognized probably a lot. Yeah.
• 22:58
  Perhaps you've seen me on my stint on the Deep Cable BYU channel where I talk for five minutes.
• 23:03
  My three minutes on Good Things Utah, right?
• 23:08
  Like four years ago, I'm like, I was on the news. so
• 23:11
  they're like oh we can't find you anywhere we giggle you nowhere no like it's
• 23:15
  there okay no i don't want to make you feel bad julie but last night i'm sitting
• 23:19
  there thinking okay i'm gonna i'm gonna finish i'm gonna listen to this thing
• 23:22
  again on the way home from the airport last night and i pull up interview i
• 23:25
  did with kevin so i pull youtube and i'm like kevin frankie it's all i do,
• 23:29
  i just feel like i know exactly what you're about to say because that's
• 23:32
  happened to me too it's so crazy i thought okay your
• 23:36
  interview with him is brand new and it's fresh and it's hot and
• 23:39
  i'm like just i'm and i'm driving immediately kind of like kevin
• 23:42
  frankie next to be one of these scroll no scroll
• 23:46
  and then i'm like kevin frankie j u l
• 23:50
  i e no but eventually
• 23:52
  it came up it did oh and i is that
• 23:55
  hurt your feelings no because truly it's truly it's not about me wait but some
• 24:03
  people i just wish more positive things were noticed because there is so much
• 24:08
  about him out there and And it is so insane and mean and so much of it is not
• 24:12
  even factual that I'm like,
• 24:14
  it's just unfortunate that that's what makes the news. But no, it's not about me.
• 24:17
  I just hope the people that it is helpful to, I just hope people will listen
• 24:22
  to it. Look, it comes up very first now.
• 24:26
  Should we read some of the comments? Let's do this. Okay, this is going to be
• 24:28
  fun. I'm reading though. You read them. Okay.
• 24:30
  And I will give you a final say on edits. That's what I was going to say. Do I say swears?
• 24:34
  Julie, read your YouTube comments. I'm not going to read the mean things about Kevin as much. Okay.
• 24:38
  And I can tackle some of those, honestly, not from a mean place,
• 24:40
  but from a emotionally immature people commenting place. Okay. Then let's do it. Okay.
• 24:45
  You don't just abandon your kids for over a year, even if your therapist tells you to.
• 24:51
  Okay. Yeah. I'll read the ones and diagnose people. Okay. Okay.
• 24:54
  So am I skipping these? Yeah. Do you want to read the ones about you?
• 24:56
  Is my favorite i just want to also it's insane to compare
• 24:59
  your wife being in prison with someone losing their sister to cancer
• 25:02
  these aren't the same thing they're not even the same universe okay
• 25:05
  now first of all were you aware that those weren't the same things i
• 25:08
  mean literally yeah they're not the exact same no
• 25:11
  i always love that we actually do literally live in the same universe yeah
• 25:14
  maybe not that person but anyway but talk about the context is
• 25:17
  what matters they listened this person did listen to the interview talk
• 25:20
  about what the context of because i thought that was beautiful and
• 25:23
  when you were talking about your sister absolutely what's interesting is
• 25:26
  i was trying to be careful as a host you don't want to make it
• 25:29
  all about you just i would assume as a therapist i know what
• 25:32
  it's like to be a therapist it's the same right no i just kidding no but you're
• 25:34
  absolutely correct you want it but there actually is quite a bit in here about
• 25:37
  how i made things too much about me yeah and for me
• 25:41
  there was a moment where it's more of a conversational style
• 25:44
  where he has come to a lot
• 25:47
  of truths that my sister as
• 25:50
  she was dying with cancer came to and i think that's a neat correlation
• 25:53
  to recognize of when everything is stripped away that
• 25:56
  and you don't have like needing the validation of other people is not really
• 26:02
  going to fix this like it's so big it's so unfixable by just common coping whatever
• 26:08
  the same truths are realized in lots of work yes meditation yes and thinking
• 26:14
  and prayer or whatever that looks like for people.
• 26:17
  For me as a traveler in life that's something i want to pay attention to because
• 26:19
  i'm like okay i can do that now without having to go there to get it yeah so that's what it was about,
• 26:26
  was that she was she said a lot of the same things he was saying
• 26:28
  when he was at his lowest yeah which that was beautiful
• 26:31
  because and you guys talked about this was it so were
• 26:34
  you saying that grief is a language is that what it was he said that yeah which
• 26:37
  is i love that gang chills here too because you
• 26:40
  probably think that you came up with this but i always say you don't
• 26:43
  know what you don't know see how i just said a funny thing there you weren't
• 26:46
  paying attention where you i said you think that you said you came up with that
• 26:48
  come on that was funny okay but
• 26:52
  what i mean but that is no one no one knows what it would
• 26:55
  feel like to be in that situation until they are in
• 26:58
  that situation and i just so well
• 27:01
  here like you know let me make it about me my mom passed away
• 27:03
  just a few weeks ago and i spent the three or four
• 27:06
  days there by her bedside and i have talked to a lot of people about that process
• 27:11
  and it is funny because then it's hard to not assume that you kind of have an
• 27:15
  idea of what that would be like but boy once you are there and you are just
• 27:21
  going through all the emotions, now all of a sudden I think, oh, I'm in the club.
• 27:24
  I could get a t-shirt and now I can talk more real about that.
• 27:27
  But not that you have to have the exact experience, but then you have to go
• 27:31
  through things to then get to those depths of soul and really have to go find yourself.
• 27:36
  And so, I love that you said getting rid of that need for external validation
• 27:40
  when all of a sudden your world is gone or you don't really have much time left on this earth.
• 27:45
  And no amount of external validation is going to fix that. So,
• 27:48
  to me, That bless the person's heart. I always say that in therapy,
• 27:51
  and then we can say whatever we want about them.
• 27:52
  This is one of the biggest concepts of emotional maturity that I think is around.
• 27:56
  And this is one of the, I think once you see it, you cannot unsee it.
• 27:58
  If I feel it, it is true. That's a childhood adaptation.
• 28:01
  If I think my mom and dad are mad at me, then they are. And then we say,
• 28:04
  they say, you're so mad at me. And our parents like, no, I'm not champ.
• 28:07
  And then eventually they're like, now this is me being mad at you.
• 28:11
  They'll eventually get what they want there. But then when we become adults,
• 28:15
  we still, if we haven't done our work, then we're still saying,
• 28:17
  no, I think this and so it's true and now you need to prove it's not.
• 28:22
  Like that is an incredibly emotionally mature thing to
• 28:24
  do so basically she's saying you did your
• 28:27
  job and you were being you wrong because i
• 28:30
  think so so now i need you to make me feel better about myself
• 28:34
  start dancing start dancing no i just
• 28:37
  want to include this because there are some people that said some positive things
• 28:40
  which is cool great interview i really appreciated the honesty and
• 28:42
  authenticity praying for healing for all of your family kevin love that
• 28:45
  yeah kevin needs to work on accountability and
• 28:48
  not playing the victim in his own life he has free
• 28:51
  will and advanced education and access to
• 28:54
  so many resources there is really no excuse for
• 28:57
  how badly he showed up in this case jody having
• 29:01
  mental breakdowns and claiming to be possessed she was divorced and her own
• 29:05
  kids don't talk to her and she lost her license does that sound like someone
• 29:08
  that an educated person should take advice from even if that advice involves
• 29:12
  betraying his own kids i get that he's human yeah i get that he's human i want
• 29:16
  to start every conversation that way i I get that they're human,
• 29:18
  but I get that he's human, but he's a grown man who chose to have a family and
• 29:22
  now he's responsible for them. No excuses.
• 29:25
  Okay. So that is riddled with all or nothing black or white thinking.
• 29:29
  It just is this or that you either get it or don't.
• 29:32
  Now let's talk about the psychology of projection. So most likely I would imagine
• 29:36
  this person grew up in a pretty black and white environment where there was good and bad.
• 29:39
  And so if you didn't do the right thing, it was the wrong thing.
• 29:42
  And there's probably, I would imagine some good old perfectionism,
• 29:44
  maybe a little OCD of thought, some things, but I don't even know who the person
• 29:47
  is. That is literally me judging.
• 29:49
  But I'm just bringing some gentle awareness. Correct. But then it also has the,
• 29:54
  it's, I call it mind reading.
• 29:55
  So we all know, we all think the same. Yes.
• 29:58
  So then, so he should know because, and then it's the, I call it the right guys
• 30:03
  thing. It's like, I mean, cause I would never do that. Right guys?
• 30:05
  You know, you're looking over your shoulder, nobody's there.
• 30:07
  I mean, yeah, but it's, no, I wouldn't do that.
• 30:09
  And because I would hate to think that I ever could.
• 30:11
  Now we're getting into that world of, because if that stuff can happen,
• 30:15
  then this is world is crazy.
• 30:16
  You know, this is like that. So I need certainty. I need, right?
• 30:19
  I know you feel like you taught me everything which you have i did i'll say
• 30:22
  in my book i see you there's a chapter about black and white thinking and about
• 30:25
  the safety of thinking in black and white yes and i say it in much less intelligent
• 30:29
  ways no you had that out there before but no but you're saying in a very smart
• 30:33
  therapeutic way but i do think there's truth to,
• 30:36
  thinking in black and white provides false safety yes that could not happen
• 30:40
  to me i don't do those he must this must be wrong so then it can never happen
• 30:45
  to me because that is a terrifying thought not to realize how mortal I am. Yes.
• 30:49
  And that bad things could happen to good people.
• 30:52
  Okay. And actually you quoted me in your book. So maybe I still could have taught you this. Correct.
• 30:56
  That's a fair point. Correct. No, I love what you're saying there.
• 30:59
  And it really is. We're all just trying to make sense of things. We want certainty.
• 31:02
  We want to rid ourselves of our discomfort. And so we like to say,
• 31:06
  if I was an educated man with this many kids, then I would have told that therapist
• 31:09
  you're wrong. And I would have been out.
• 31:11
  Which that's a lot of magical thinking that I would do all of these wonderful things.
• 31:14
  If I was that same person in that same spot. Great story. There are so many
• 31:17
  things that somebody would have to defend there, and I guarantee you that you
• 31:20
  would start one or two of those, and then they would still, yeah, but, well, yeah, but.
• 31:23
  So I don't believe that person's coming from a place of genuine curiosity.
• 31:27
  Bust their heart. Yeah, they just want to be heard. Yep.
• 31:30
  Okay, this old is, here we go. He's also a member of a religious organization
• 31:35
  where men are the priesthood holders and head of the house.
• 31:38
  He had all the power and gave it up to act like a kicked puppy.
• 31:43
  His youngest son is 100 times braver and more of a man than this guy. Man.
• 31:49
  You want to take that one or do you want me to take it? There's a lot there.
• 31:51
  I think that I can start going into the projection, black and white thinking.
• 31:54
  I think it's so it's true, make me feel better about this. We all think the
• 31:58
  same. So you start seeing these patterns. What does priesthood holder mean?
• 32:01
  What does head of household mean? What does that mean to you?
• 32:04
  How did you grow up? That is where I'm like, oh, I.
• 32:08
  Is that what that means is to have all the power whoa do i think some
• 32:11
  people believe that 100 is that all truth his youngest
• 32:14
  son is 100 times braver and more of a man than this guy that
• 32:17
  is a really big statement to make people you've never met yes yeah
• 32:20
  and that which is magical thinking that i would know but i like that
• 32:23
  you said that too because the way people are growing up the things that
• 32:26
  we saw modeled yeah i just have a couple right now they've
• 32:29
  been married for a very long time and we just had the conversation of
• 32:32
  she grew up where people yelled and screamed and then
• 32:34
  worked it out and the guy essentially felt like he grew up in a library
• 32:37
  so when people yell and scream then he plays small and
• 32:41
  waits for the storm to pass and so you put that dynamic together and
• 32:44
  anyone's saying well well obviously it happens this way
• 32:47
  it doesn't understand they responded to it well guess
• 32:50
  he wasn't that indoctrinated because ruby was the priesthood in
• 32:53
  that relationship so therefore what is priesthood we
• 32:56
  could get into that ruby was the priesthood in
• 32:58
  that relationship that's funny too because that would mean whoever gets to rule with the
• 33:01
  iron fist then is that actually means god's power which
• 33:04
  is like god is much different than yes same was the priesthood
• 33:07
  in that relationship i assume we're talking about joseph smith i think i can't even think
• 33:10
  of a funny one off the top of my head okay like i couldn't think of somebody cal
• 33:12
  there's so many things in there there's a funny one there
• 33:15
  julie about you where they tuned out 30 minutes in i want
• 33:18
  to know how you felt about that so good this was a great interview thank you
• 33:22
  i grew up in a cult heavily indoctrinated and in the discourse surrounding the
• 33:26
  case i've seen how many people really don't understand what being indoctrinated
• 33:29
  and abused is like and i'm glad for them but i hate that kevin now not only
• 33:33
  has to live with the consequences of his actions.
• 33:35
  But also with the constant hate and criticism of people who understand so little.
• 33:39
  I especially appreciated hearing about Kevin's personal faith after all of this.
• 33:43
  I hope he knows there are a lot of people who are there praying for him, not just haters.
• 33:47
  That's beautiful. Beautiful. And I do think that far fewer people take the time
• 33:52
  to send those things, but the people that need to have a voice in commentary
• 33:58
  of putting others down in the comment section,
• 34:00
  I find that that is a bit of a pastime for them or that is how they start to feel like they matter.
• 34:05
  As busy with other relationships and things like that.
• 34:09
  And which is again i will own the judgment yeah totally i
• 34:12
  just like this the way the footage is placed i thought you guys were holding hands i
• 34:15
  think that was right i just love the breakup of that any other comments lol
• 34:18
  it was very well cut i mean it looked like you guys were in the same studio
• 34:21
  haha yeah i thought that was a new girlfriend lol it's just funny yeah any targeted
• 34:28
  parent knows exactly what they saw in the footage of his police interview i
• 34:33
  wasn't 100 sure on that But I mean,
• 34:35
  I loved how he talked about when he was in that police interview.
• 34:38
  Oh, and if you've watched it. Yeah.
• 34:40
  Oh, it's a lot. Yeah. And I can't even imagine all of the emotions,
• 34:44
  the adrenaline, the fear, all of those things going on at that time.
• 34:48
  Now we're getting into something that I think you taught me,
• 34:50
  the amygdala hijack. When you're flooded with emotions and cortisol and your
• 34:53
  heart rate elevates, you literally lose access to the prefrontal cortex from part of your brain.
• 34:57
  You can't make sense of things. You're in that reaction, fight or flight.
• 35:00
  People in the comments are not nice to the interview or she did a good job.
• 35:03
  Oh, that's nice. But then someone says, yes, she did.
• 35:06
  The person being interviewed didn't do a good job, though. That's where all
• 35:09
  the emotions are coming from.
• 35:11
  So many interviewers interject too much of their own story into the interview.
• 35:14
  Okay. I stopped listening at 30 minutes. So many interviewers interject too
• 35:19
  much of their own story into the interview.
• 35:21
  I choose podcasts because of who the subject is, not the person conducting the interview.
• 35:26
  A good interviewer learns to listen more and talk less.
• 35:30
  Julie, your thoughts? I agree. they should
• 35:33
  learn to talk less they should go find another podcast they
• 35:36
  enjoy more and i think it's okay so this is what i thought was fascinating
• 35:39
  early on when people would say oh get to it
• 35:41
  or the it takes too long to get to the point or i don't like their intro music
• 35:46
  or whatever my first thought was always oh well then on your podcast you could
• 35:50
  do it differently but if you really think that that person thinks that they're
• 35:54
  drive by listening to you interviewing someone that they can now tell you how
• 35:58
  you should be doing you differently than the way that you did.
• 36:01
  So they apparently had a script of what your interview should have looked like
• 36:05
  that they did not get to you.
• 36:06
  So you were unaware of how you were supposed to do the podcast.
• 36:10
  Is that fair? And that was a good old differentiation. Everything's a me thing.
• 36:14
  It's an opportunity for me to self-confront and grow. Is there truth in that? I don't know.
• 36:18
  Maybe. But next time it's the first time that I'm interviewing Kevin Franke,
• 36:21
  then I'll do it differently.
• 36:22
  Totally. Okay. Here's one. This This is new to me, 13 hours ago.
• 36:26
  I don't really understand all the emotion around the deity conversation.
• 36:30
  There are so many things that are right in front of me to be emotional about.
• 36:33
  It just seems like a waste of time and energy to be focused on something that
• 36:36
  I view as being just as much make-believe as dragons. I just don't get it.
• 36:42
  I have lots of friends that are atheists i can understand that i've been through
• 36:45
  immense suffering really through my entire life but i don't see the need
• 36:48
  to pin all my hope and strength on a fairy godmother i
• 36:52
  also don't believe in a fairy godmother just don't put that it is in my book but
• 36:55
  yeah i don't actually believe in one though i'm not trying to be mean or rude
• 36:59
  which i can appreciate or denigrate anyone's faith i'm really not sorry i love
• 37:03
  when things start with that that's just exactly what it seems like to me i don't
• 37:06
  get it you don't need to do that there There are so much better reasons to go
• 37:10
  on and so many ways to get that strength you need in your weakest moments.
• 37:13
  You don't have to try to imagine it into being.
• 37:16
  Okay. So I have big thoughts on this one is when somebody says that I don't
• 37:21
  get it, that's where I did an episode not too long ago about genuine curiosity.
• 37:25
  And I do not believe that is genuine curiosity. That's I don't get it.
• 37:28
  So I'm being curious. But then when you now tell me what you think,
• 37:32
  then I call it provide me with an attack surface. So now I can tell you what
• 37:36
  is wrong with your beliefs because I think there's a few different layers of curiosity.
• 37:39
  One is, okay, fine. I will be curious to check a box. Okay, no, tell me.
• 37:43
  There's another version where I go, no, I really want to know so that then I
• 37:46
  can tell you that you're wrong and I'm right because that'll put me in this one-up position.
• 37:49
  So genuine curiosity is an active process. You have to step outside of your ego.
• 37:53
  You have to learn how to be, not react.
• 37:56
  And so when he says, I don't get it, no one needs this, then it's like,
• 38:01
  okay, hey thanks for sharing because i don't think he's really wanting to be
• 38:04
  in a reciprocal dialogue.
• 38:08
  Absolutely i will say there's this
• 38:10
  one did was it taken off the really
• 38:13
  the mean ones that said the bad words i didn't see bad words did you see the
• 38:18
  cheating the affair thing i think i saw that one that is wait saying that you
• 38:22
  and him were yeah they used a different word but okay maybe that one got blocked
• 38:27
  ah it's so unfortunate it was no that was the one just the way that it was worded
• 38:31
  that I was like, this is just... Just mean?
• 38:34
  It's just mean, and it's just so off base of even anything that is being talked about.
• 38:39
  But I get it. People are hurt. But I just, actually, Kevin, we've been talking
• 38:44
  back and forth, and I'm like, don't, do not, you are forbidden from looking
• 38:47
  at any of the comments on there, which he's so used to this. I bet.
• 38:50
  I'm sure he knows not to if he's not going to. But yeah, there was someone then
• 38:54
  that gone on and said that we have an intimate,
• 38:58
  a very physically intimate relationship because that's
• 39:01
  the only way clearly that we could
• 39:03
  be doing this interview and i thought that was so fascinating i
• 39:06
  was like huh and actually remind me different but
• 39:09
  when we've done podcasts before adhd i had a lot of questions about if we were
• 39:13
  involved or if we were married really really like huh so that is a requirement
• 39:17
  i mean i was offended okay just wait wait i think is that didn't we figure you're
• 39:22
  two decades older than me that's sounds dramatic but It's the fact that we're
• 39:26
  all in committed marriages.
• 39:27
  It's just funny. It's like, it's such a cheap shop. Wait, hold on. Two decades, though.
• 39:29
  Is that true? I'm 35. Oh, wow. Yeah, it's decades.
• 39:33
  So you'd be like my kid. Yeah, that's why it's just like... It's a trip.
• 39:36
  Yeah, and then there's just lots of questions. There's something in German, which I looked at.
• 39:40
  Check your heart. You might have some promuladic stuff here because you still
• 39:43
  love Ruby. And then they have red flags. Again, it's that...
• 39:45
  Yeah, trauma bond. Trauma bond, yep.
• 39:48
  There's just a lot of stuff also questioning, like, about his activity and his
• 39:51
  religion, which, again, it's just so fascinating to me.
• 39:55
  I feel like that wasn't the point of any of the interview. And I think I am
• 40:00
  fairly certain. I know some of the answers to those questions,
• 40:02
  but there's part of me that doesn't even want to answer him because I just feel
• 40:04
  like it's his story to share. And what does it have to do with the interview?
• 40:07
  It doesn't. And again, it's like somebody just saying, I didn't like this one
• 40:11
  thing. So you need to make me feel better.
• 40:13
  Which even when I asked Kevin to do this interview, cause I thought about it a lot.
• 40:16
  I just met this man. He has no reason to trust me. Why would he.
• 40:20
  When I talked about it, I followed up with, and I feel this way of,
• 40:23
  you don't owe me anything.
• 40:25
  He doesn't owe anyone to do this no not at all like
• 40:28
  he's he's done everything he needs to do he has every
• 40:31
  right to go on and live the most healing life he can for himself for his
• 40:33
  kids so he did this because he felt like
• 40:36
  what i've learned maybe it could be helpful to someone and it will and it already
• 40:40
  is like i've gotten messages and messages that people are like i am bawling
• 40:44
  my eyes out because this is i have experienced this not to the same degree it's
• 40:49
  different but i relate with this and i relate to the truths i feel hope i feel
• 40:53
  there's so much of that just usually those aren't the people commenting on YouTube.
• 40:57
  I don't even know how to comment on YouTube. Yeah. You know?
• 40:59
  Cause if I like, I need to probably be more intentional about saying,
• 41:02
  Hey, well done. I so appreciate it. Like it. And I move on.
• 41:05
  And most of the comments are reserved for the people that are wanting to just take shots.
• 41:09
  This dude is disgusting and ridiculous. He let it happen.
• 41:12
  Don't give this delusion a platform.
• 41:15
  There's no justification for exploiting children. Again, what's interesting
• 41:19
  to me too, is as we watched the documentary is.
• 41:22
  From what I saw and from what I've understood, I have several mutual friends
• 41:26
  that were good friends with them during all this before it went as South.
• 41:30
  I feel like vlogging was kind of new. This eight passengers channel,
• 41:34
  I didn't know about. But I think it was a new thing that there wasn't people.
• 41:39
  It's just so much easier to have. Hindsight's 20-20. This wasn't really a thing.
• 41:45
  No, what's that called? Presentism, where we judge the past based on the present.
• 41:48
  And it's super easy to do that. So, you take that along with no one knows what
• 41:52
  it feels like to be you or me and we're in those moments, we're reacting and
• 41:56
  then quite frankly, we're trying to make sense of things as they happen.
• 41:59
  So, I think that's fascinating too.
• 42:01
  Yeah, totally. Here's another one. A white privileged wealthy male claiming
• 42:05
  hurt people hurt people.
• 42:07
  Ooh, let's unpack that. What's going on for that person? That is hard, but that, whoa.
• 42:11
  You just walked away from your kids and family because your wife's lover told you to hogwash. Okay.
• 42:16
  I was sitting there thinking, Julie, there's something i wanted to make
• 42:19
  sure we talk about again making it all about myself working in
• 42:22
  this space as a therapist so i was familiar with jody
• 42:25
  hildebrand i worked with a couple of guys that then
• 42:28
  were divorced or ran out of their marriage by jody hildebrand yeah and i know
• 42:33
  i have multiple friends that worked with her two friends in the documentary
• 42:35
  in the meetings that i was looking closer it's my third time watching i was
• 42:39
  like oh my gosh and i started texting i'm like you were the same i remember
• 42:43
  you telling me about these groups and things you were learning.
• 42:46
  I never made the connection. It was Jodi's group till two nights ago.
• 42:49
  What I thought was really fascinating. One of my clients has sent me,
• 42:51
  I have drawings that they had, that Jodi had their kids draw.
• 42:55
  And it is heartbreaking because it's basically stick figure little kid drawings
• 42:59
  that say truth and distortion.
• 43:01
  And it's like her vibe, even with their kids.
• 43:03
  And I ended up getting two or three guys that were, of course,
• 43:06
  all confidentiality. I'm changing information.
• 43:09
  My whole message on dealing with people that struggle with turning to,
• 43:12
  And since it's on YouTube, I have to say, I think cornography, addicted to corn.
• 43:18
  Oh, because does it make the video not show up? It can sometimes.
• 43:21
  Turning to that as an unhealthy coping mechanism that my number one rule is no place for shame.
• 43:25
  Shame is, I helped maybe 16, 17, 100 guys at this point.
• 43:30
  And shame has been a component of zero of their recovery.
• 43:32
  Jodi said, you start from a place of shame and you must feel shame.
• 43:36
  Isolation. And it is the craziest thing in the world to start from that place.
• 43:41
  And so I was almost honored at one point to have learned that it was mentioned
• 43:45
  that what do I know? because I am coming from this place of just,
• 43:50
  I was being deceptive and delusion.
• 43:52
  And because I did not. This is you? Yeah, that I learned through one of my clients
• 43:56
  that I was seeing individually that he was working with her as a couple.
• 43:59
  That then I was being told that I don't know what I'm talking about.
• 44:02
  So I love that. He was currently working with them? So that was kind of fun.
• 44:05
  So Cody's stuff then was like, hey, therapist, you don't know what you're talking
• 44:07
  about. My other therapist is teaching us this. Yes.
• 44:10
  How fun is that? So that was a little bit of satisfaction, even watching that whole thing play out.
• 44:14
  I just thought that was really, really interesting. but then seeing the
• 44:17
  pictures from the impact was big was big and i
• 44:20
  feel like there's a lot of people being quiet that actually did work with
• 44:22
  her because they don't want to be involved which everybody has a right to their privacy
• 44:25
  especially with therapy but it is interesting that it's
• 44:29
  really easy to the more and more i've talked to everybody i
• 44:32
  know that worked with her highly intelligent educated people also these were
• 44:36
  not and it's just so fascinating to me because i think having watched the documentary
• 44:42
  a few times now what really was cemented in my brain by the end is she actually
• 44:46
  was really nice and pretty darn helpful in the beginning. In the beginning. She gained the trust.
• 44:51
  Years. Yes, it was a long game. For years, it was a long game.
• 44:54
  That's what trauma bonding is, that intermittent reinforcement is the long game.
• 44:57
  I mean, Chad talks about it in interviews now, he's like, and they talk about
• 45:00
  their marriage was looking better. There was positive things happening.
• 45:04
  So, you get, you dig the closet and you get the trust and then you start turning
• 45:09
  the dial after you have it and that's how someone can be effective in doing what she did.
• 45:13
  They can. And what I think is fascinating too is when you go to therapy.
• 45:16
  There's, I remember some data and And these days now I think,
• 45:19
  okay, our memory is crazy that I need to probably look this up.
• 45:22
  So I will tell you, I don't know the source, but there was a thought that 40%
• 45:25
  of couples got better just by signing up for therapy because now they were doing something about it.
• 45:30
  And so often you keep telling yourself, I'll do it later and I'll do it when
• 45:33
  it gets worse, but then things get bad and then it's too uncomfortable and you
• 45:37
  just say, okay, no, next time if something happens, I'm going to get help.
• 45:40
  So just the very fact that you're signing up and somebody is saying words and
• 45:43
  they seem confident about it.
• 45:45
  I will often notice that because I love being a couples therapist.
• 45:49
  And when somebody comes in, hey, we've got the right tools. It takes a lot to
• 45:53
  come in here, a lot of courage.
• 45:54
  And so they get better. They get better. And then there's like a little bit
• 45:57
  of honeymoon period. And then they go back to their home base.
• 46:00
  And then they think, oh my gosh, we can't even therapy well.
• 46:03
  So I think she rode that cycle. She's saying, I'm very confident.
• 46:06
  It's also as a therapist that you have to make a living by charging for this
• 46:10
  stuff. I was blown away by how much she charged.
• 46:13
  And she was also coming from this place of, can you tell us?
• 46:16
  I know I cannot, but I know I do know.
• 46:18
  And it was like, she would, yeah. Cause she was, yeah. Oh gosh.
• 46:21
  She had a whatever point million dollar home down there in Southern Utah.
• 46:24
  I would feel bad when I bumped my hourly rate up 10 bucks every couple of years.
• 46:28
  And she's going thousands of dollars to sell these packages.
• 46:31
  And there is a part where you feel like, and I think this is what started happening.
• 46:35
  The educated people, the wealthy people, you feel like you are joining that
• 46:39
  a special flower club. It's like Costco.
• 46:41
  When you think, oh, I'm going to get what I pay for because if I'm going to go. Yeah.
• 46:44
  Okay. Poor kid heart walking to Costco. I'm like, I don't belong here.
• 46:47
  Does anyone realize I don't belong at Costco? She did create a sort of a status there. Yep.
• 46:51
  And okay. So here's the comment. This entire story is pathetic.
• 46:56
  The entire story this entire story is pathetic mr frankie is a spineless wimp
• 47:01
  what kind of man allows a therapist to control him so the two of you are having
• 47:07
  dinner are you there we go,
• 47:11
  ing the entire family continues to profit
• 47:14
  on youtube i see you are too what
• 47:18
  i did like is they say i see you i saw i see you and i was like wait are
• 47:21
  they gonna use that to twist it so i see you are too
• 47:23
  so we're i am not profiting yeah zero dollars
• 47:28
  either of us fyi yeah is the comments
• 47:31
  like that so you two are having dinner i'm like oh that means
• 47:34
  steak yeah okay hope it's good everybody knows
• 47:37
  if you're having dinner with i talked to my husband this morning i was like hey fyi
• 47:40
  just so you don't find out online there's a thing going on okay you know you
• 47:45
  weren't even aware of no but he's like oh that's why you went on vacation like
• 47:49
  obviously because you're high didn't so apparently i i didn't know that but
• 47:52
  the internet does so and you took your kids so that was like you brought my
• 47:55
  kids yeah yeah what a good cover i know right yeah.
• 47:59
  Oh, it's just funny. Bless their heart. But that is a mean thing to say.
• 48:03
  When one becomes differentiated, you're going to know who you are without needing
• 48:07
  others to tell you and grounded and not playing small and taking ownership of
• 48:10
  things that you can't, that is a process of learning who you are. So you're grounded.
• 48:15
  One of the greatest things there is if somebody is sitting there and they're
• 48:18
  saying those things to you and when one is maybe not differentiated,
• 48:22
  they want to defend and fight back and prove.
• 48:24
  But if I know that those are not true, it's so powerful to be able to say,
• 48:28
  hey tell me what your hope was there did you want me to like get really angry
• 48:31
  or i'm because i'm not really sure i'm so cute do you want a hug
• 48:34
  do you need a hug yeah because i think that's ultimately what it is you
• 48:37
  and this is saying that about a stranger i would need a hug i
• 48:40
  do think at the core if somebody is there at that
• 48:43
  point they are now here's where kevin was so spot
• 48:46
  on hurt people are hurting people and so they
• 48:48
  want you to get mad so they can go yeah you you stink too and then
• 48:51
  they get a little adrenaline pump and then they can drive along and go
• 48:54
  to the next video and tell those people they suck too and because
• 48:57
  the most hurt people the most emotionally mature don't know
• 49:00
  they exist unless they're interacting with another human and they need that
• 49:03
  in a way of saying i'm real i'm still breathing yeah which
• 49:06
  is heartbreaking and that's why when i think often when somebody does
• 49:08
  engage a little bit with somebody like that they thrive off
• 49:11
  of it it's like oh man i'm getting a connection yeah
• 49:14
  it's the whole no attention is worse than bad attention
• 49:17
  and that's again it's like how do i know i exist and when
• 49:20
  you're growing up and you're a kid then you will get attention
• 49:23
  either be in the star student or the emo kid or
• 49:26
  the one that shuts down that and that's
• 49:29
  honestly sad or unfortunate so this is
• 49:32
  interesting i've been discussing so i'm newly married who did
• 49:35
  the ring ceremony i saw your wedding they seemed super cool yeah they knew what
• 49:39
  they were doing for sure you did i did it was so fun it was really fun that
• 49:42
  was that was a great wedding i need to send you the vows because i actually
• 49:44
  just got the recording of it the fun thing is that tony me and my husband none
• 49:48
  of us had any time to prepare because he took so long primping at the other not No.
• 49:53
  Your husband the other one the other one with the shaved head.
• 49:55
  Yes, there's no hair to do and it takes me like five minutes Anyway,
• 49:58
  we don't know. No, it's we adore.
• 49:59
  He's so sweet though. I love that guy. I just want to have Yeah,
• 50:01
  for real because the first time I ever met him He is love he is a lovable fridge
• 50:06
  you want to hug but it's interesting We've talked about this a little bit where
• 50:09
  sometimes I've noticed that I something I've seen in myself as transitioning
• 50:14
  into a new relationship a second marriage primates his first is I've noticed
• 50:17
  that when if we aren't talking.
• 50:20
  I really struggle I feel like in some ways something in me hurts even more than if we are fighting,
• 50:27
  like, arguing, I don't want to say fighting, fighting can mean a lot of things,
• 50:29
  but, like, disagreeing, it's the silence is more painful, and I was thinking
• 50:33
  about that, and I was like, oh, I think that's, it's this feeling of,
• 50:36
  wait, am I here, am I real?
• 50:38
  Absolutely, Julie. And I think that's a common human experience to navigate of-
• 50:42
  what is this bringing up for me from where what you know
• 50:45
  is am I real am I am I secure when it's quiet that's
• 50:48
  an anxious attachment and usually we partner up with a good old
• 50:51
  avoidant and then we got this anxious avoidant loop and then we're the
• 50:53
  goal is to become secure yes right and
• 50:56
  so at that point even be able to express that hey are we good and if he says
• 51:00
  we're good and then if I want to ask again five minutes later that's a me thing
• 51:03
  yeah and now I need to learn to soothe or calm because if it's like okay I don't
• 51:06
  feel like we're good now I'm back into that I feel it so I think it's true so
• 51:09
  can you make me feel better but I'm not really sure what it's going to take
• 51:11
  And you have no clue where to start, but go ahead.
• 51:14
  But the interdependency is I take care of my own needs and I'm able to ask for
• 51:19
  help taking care of my needs, which is can we just check in real quick?
• 51:22
  Are we good? And you say yes, but then me trusting we're good because you said.
• 51:26
  And then when you get the advanced levels of that is, man, I am so grateful
• 51:29
  that we are good because now let me take you my train of thought.
• 51:32
  When I sense a shift in body language or when I notice that you picked up your
• 51:36
  phone quick, I'm telling myself the story because then we can dig into it.
• 51:40
  And if he's like, man, tell me more about that.
• 51:42
  Now we're designed to deal with emotion in concert with another human.
• 51:45
  So this safe human has said that. And I'm like, okay, so I don't know,
• 51:49
  my feelings about when my dad or whatever.
• 51:51
  And now we get to blame our parents. And now we're back. It's,
• 51:53
  can you see where that is good versus I don't, man, I don't want to say this
• 51:57
  because I don't want them to think I'm crazy.
• 51:59
  So then I'm managing their emotions and I'm not being open. I'm not letting them see me.
• 52:03
  Yeah, I know. It's a lot. Yeah. Which is funny because that's honestly why I
• 52:07
  just, I do like these comments and I know we're cracking wise and but there's
• 52:11
  a reason why every behavior is a need-seeking behavior.
• 52:14
  Every emotion is trying to tell us a story. And so, the person is wanting someone
• 52:18
  to see them, which is what your whole thing is.
• 52:21
  Sorry we twisted that, look, I see you. Yep. Manipulative.
• 52:24
  No, but, and I am like, I am teasing a little, I guess there's part of me that
• 52:28
  feels like, well, I have the right to a little bit because you're saying these things.
• 52:30
  But in all reality, I think it's important to point out the craziness of online in part.
• 52:36
  Just not to take life too seriously and people that don't actually know you probably,
• 52:41
  it's a good idea to not put too much into their
• 52:44
  advice yes however there is
• 52:47
  something about as we actually pull this apart i'm getting really sad because
• 52:50
  i'm like no i want i don't want them to feel like that yeah i don't want them
• 52:54
  to want to say those mean things about people they don't know because actually
• 52:56
  there's like a little kid inside hurting i don't mean that patronizing i've
• 53:00
  been that person well we all have that that inner child and that is the way that we were Okay,
• 53:04
  now let's get deeper. I love where this is gone, by the way.
• 53:07
  Kevin Franke has been our muse and we appreciate that, Kevin,
• 53:09
  because the interview was wonderful and I want everyone to watch that.
• 53:12
  And I had all these- He gave away gold. He did. For me listening, I've learned so much.
• 53:17
  And so now maybe what we're going to do is right now I've set this stage for
• 53:20
  a part two because I actually had legitimate questions about other things like,
• 53:24
  but I really like where we're going here because that inner child that are,
• 53:27
  I love this concept of the, Our childhood adaptations,
• 53:30
  the things that kept us alive as a kid, now are maladaptive as an adult.
• 53:34
  So these, somebody that needs to tell somebody how bad they are,
• 53:38
  like that is how they were seen as a kid.
• 53:40
  It kept them alive. So you get to say, thank you, inner child.
• 53:43
  This is the way that you, yep. And, but now let the big kid take over.
• 53:46
  Oh, so good. The bus, driving the bus. Yeah. Do you use that analogy?
• 53:50
  And you guys said it in Kevin's interview, even, and it was about the emotions,
• 53:54
  being able to be on the bus. No, I taught you that. That's what you're remembering.
• 53:58
  Okay yes yes and i've
• 54:02
  been to therapy so i know that it was yes this
• 54:05
  is an analogy that truly has helped me a lot though is the yes and
• 54:08
  i love that thank you just took me a minute no this
• 54:11
  is one of the for me one of
• 54:14
  the most powerful ways i have been able
• 54:17
  to deal with my own things from the past which
• 54:20
  is i am driving the bus yeah but
• 54:23
  also five-year-old julie is sitting in the seat in the bus or not the bus the
• 54:27
  van i'm driving the van five-year-old julie sitting in the van 12-year-old julie
• 54:32
  sitting in the van 22 year old city this little kid that thought this this teenager
• 54:35
  thought this and so when i when people in the van have opinions about where
• 54:41
  i should go which direction.
• 54:42
  I don't just shut them up and not listen to them i'm
• 54:46
  like oh okay i hear you i hear you three-year-old in a car seat yeah
• 54:49
  but i'm also not going to expect a three-year-old to drive a van it's not
• 54:52
  compassion and so as i did my own i've done a
• 54:54
  lot of like inner child healing and reading a lot of books that really spoke to
• 54:57
  me just this idea that we're not because i didn't
• 55:00
  like the idea but i do feel these things and they feel strong and
• 55:03
  it's like i gotta recognize them but being able to know i'm protecting the three-year-old
• 55:08
  i'm not shutting up the three-year-old i'm protecting them by saying man i hear
• 55:12
  you you're hot and you're hungry and you're scared that this trip will never
• 55:16
  end because it feels like eternity only two minutes because you're three i get
• 55:20
  that and I am aware of it and that's gonna help me.
• 55:23
  I'm gonna take all your advice from all of you, okay, and then as the adult,
• 55:27
  I'm going to drive the van where I think is the best place for all of us to
• 55:31
  considering all of our feelings and opinions.
• 55:33
  But I'm not gonna unstrap the three year old, put him in the fancy and say-
• 55:38
  Yeah you should drive because that's not protecting the three that's not taking care
• 55:41
  of the three-year-old isn't capable of that that's unfair and
• 55:44
  now my job as an adult is i get to i get to take care of
• 55:47
  these people and for me that that's really helped
• 55:50
  me to not shame myself yeah about some
• 55:53
  feelings that come up that sometimes feel very irrational because
• 55:56
  they are not they're not level with
• 55:59
  the most mature yeah and with the situation it's like
• 56:02
  this tiny thing happens and it brings up these feelings of like
• 56:05
  and as an adult I'm able to see this doesn't make
• 56:08
  sense over this tiny thing that happened but I can stop
• 56:11
  and say okay who's in the van who's hurting who's hot who's hungry
• 56:14
  what's going on I hear you I see you now I'm
• 56:17
  gonna make a decision and the adult has to be willing to put up or deal
• 56:20
  with or make space for all the emotions and
• 56:23
  be grounded okay not reactive can I
• 56:26
  read something on here please okay this is not one of the quotes but
• 56:29
  but yes before you do that can we end on one there's one
• 56:31
  more feedback i want to end on it because yeah we'll
• 56:34
  wrap it up too we went an hour julie oh my gosh i'm
• 56:37
  so sorry and you're wait now why are you sorry why did
• 56:40
  you feel the need to apologize tell me more about this okay here we go what
• 56:45
  an incredible interview and such a change of pace from the headlines it's amazing
• 56:48
  to see so much humanity and love coming through this heartbreaking situation
• 56:52
  thank you both for bringing out the light in the dark and helping listeners
• 56:55
  to see each other beyond what's on the surface i love this not just like it's okay hey,
• 56:59
  people don't think the interview is incredible or that I'm a great host.
• 57:02
  Like, that's beside the point.
• 57:03
  But I just, the humanity and love coming through the heartbreaking situation.
• 57:08
  That they can see the effort of trying to share light and good,
• 57:12
  bringing out the light and the dark.
• 57:14
  I don't care, really, my presentation style. Like, that's, it's fine.
• 57:17
  It's okay if people don't like that. But I appreciate that people are...
• 57:21
  Can pay attention to good and saying hey that rings true to me
• 57:23
  too it's kind of the difference i feel like between being trying
• 57:26
  to be a problem maker and a problem solver yeah yeah
• 57:29
  i love the problem solver of even if they're like
• 57:32
  oh that was so annoying the way she did that i hate oh i hate her hair like
• 57:36
  oh great but that they can say even if they do they can say oh that one piece
• 57:41
  of truth i'm gonna take that i'm gonna leave what i don't like but i'm gonna
• 57:44
  take that for them it doesn't need to be about perfection or me or him or anything,
• 57:49
  but just if this was helpful in some way, great.
• 57:51
  We're all human. And that is mature. Somebody can not like my hair and think the message is okay.
• 57:55
  That's fine. And that's okay. And it really is okay. It doesn't really impact
• 57:57
  my life unless I... Okay.
• 57:59
  Well, let me say this. This is a quote that I put on a recent podcast about
• 58:02
  emotional immaturity, and it's from a book, a fiction book.
• 58:06
  Did you ever read The Silent Patient by chance? No. It was brilliant.
• 58:09
  But the author, Alex Michelaitis, then followed up with one called The Fury.
• 58:13
  So, a fictional character talked about their therapist. So, again,
• 58:16
  we're talking fictional character, fictional therapist, but it is one of the
• 58:18
  most brilliant concepts I've ever heard.
• 58:21
  He says, my therapist was called Mariana. I remember once she said something
• 58:24
  chilling. It messed my head for a long time. Looking back, I think it changed my entire life.
• 58:28
  She said, when we are young and afraid, when we are shamed and humiliated, something happens.
• 58:32
  Time stops. It freezes at that moment. A version of us is trapped at that age forever.
• 58:36
  A frightened child is hiding in your mind. It's still unsafe.
• 58:39
  It's still unheard and unloved.
• 58:41
  And the sooner you get in touch with that child and communicate with them
• 58:44
  the more harmonious your life will be and here's the big part after all
• 58:47
  that's what he grew you for isn't it a strong adult body to look after
• 58:50
  him in his interest to take care of him and to protect him you
• 58:53
  were meant to liberate him but instead you ended up becoming his jailer i
• 58:57
  get the chill still your inner child didn't know how to protect itself or speak
• 59:01
  up for itself it imprinted these emotions and said okay when you're an adult
• 59:06
  you can heal this so go get them but then we become the adult we miss the message
• 59:10
  so we still react as these immature,
• 59:13
  reactive adults that are saying, hey, look at me.
• 59:16
  This is the way I did it as a kid. And our own inner child is like,
• 59:20
  what the? You're like big now.
• 59:21
  Can't you be calm and curious? I thought the big kid had the answers.
• 59:26
  But I love that. We were meant to liberate that inner child, not become its jailer.
• 59:31
  A fair amount of wardens in the comments, apparently. And also some big kids
• 59:36
  were showing up there too. Yeah, they were.
• 59:38
  Julie Lee, how fun was this, huh? This is good. The band is back.
• 59:41
  Thanks for, the band is back. Yeah. Thanks for, wait, hang on.
• 59:48
  I don't know where this is going. The drummer's back. That thing you do?
• 59:51
  Remember how they have more than, is that not a normal drum?
• 59:53
  Just in that thing you do. Yeah, I don't know the reference.
• 59:56
  Also, we're going on a cruise.
• 59:57
  We are. We'll probably wear sunglasses there.
• 1:00:02
  Okay, thank you so much, Julie. Thanks for having me. Hopefully I hit record.
• 1:00:06
  That is all right. Man, can you imagine? Can you imagine?
• 1:00:10
  Flying past our heads and out the other end the pressures of the daily grind it's one.
• 1:00:18
  Music.