Latest / Just What I Needed / EP010 Just What I Needed: ENOUGH (ft. Tyler Dickerhoof)

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EP010 Just What I Needed: ENOUGH (ft. Tyler Dickerhoof) · Just What I Needed

• Esther And Paul: Friends, welcome back to Just What I Needed. Today is a bittersweet day because if you see, if you're watching this on YouTube, you can see that I am here without my trusty partner, my everything, my queen, Esther is down today. So Esther has been hit by the bug. So we are flying not solo because we have an amazing guest today, but you are going to have me here today. If you've been listening to the show for a while, you know that we talk a lot to high achievers, people who are Paul Rivera: I'm my own wave Seeing light even on the thawed days of days I trust myself and know my worth There is nothing but stars behind me Can we go higher? Can we go higher? Together, we're better, you can dream bigger and louder Can we go higher? Esther And Paul: invested in the hustle culture and us at BX change, we're all about trying to get people towards authenticity and feeling good and making the impact that matters. So I think that all of us have been there in some, in some situation where we see that, that the intensity, the burnout, people just sort of going full speed and not necessarily getting what they want. So our guest today is Tyler Dickerhoof. Paul Rivera: Can we go higher? Esther And Paul: He is a leadership mentor, entrepreneur, host of impact-driven leader community, and author of the book, The Things We Hide. He has over 25 years of experience, more than $700 million in generated business sales. So he understands the real pressures that leaders face. He's a Cornell University graduate. Tyler once defined his worth by his achievement, often at the expense of relationships. But through personal development and entrepreneurship, he's confronted the hidden insecurities that shape his leadership. Paul Rivera: Together we're better to dream bigger and louder can we go higher? Esther And Paul: Today, he helps leaders slow down, tell the truth about what's really driving them, and lead with greater authenticity, clarity, and impact. am so glad to welcome you, Tyler, to our show. Tyler Dickerhoof: I I'm grateful, thankful that you were a guest on my podcast to come back and into pouring into your community. And as you mentioned earlier, bummed that Esther's not here, but I think we hit the hair quotient. So, you know, I think that's what happened today. Okay? Yeah. Esther And Paul: Yes! Hey, I think that's what it is. I think that's what it is. You know, there's a there's a there's a bonding that happens right there. ⁓ I tell I tell people I have several friends that I think should go our route and just be be free with it. I think it's the one of the most liberating things that I've that I ever did. I've been I've been this way for about 25, 26 years now. ⁓ So here's here's the metric that I give all men. Tyler Dickerhoof: Yeah, yeah, there you go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ absolutely. Okay? Yeah. Esther And Paul: Your hair has to serve at least one of two purposes. Okay. Purpose one is that it needs to enhance your physical appearance somehow. Purpose two, it has to protect your head from the sun. Right? So I started balding in my twenties. You know what I'm saying? So that protection from the sun thing was gone really fast. Where men get stuck is the enhancement of their physical appearance. And I think that that's where you just got to be bold. Tyler Dickerhoof: Okay. Okay. Okay? Uh-huh Esther And Paul: take the dive, give it a try. I don't know and let it go. I don't know anybody who's done the full shave and regretted it. So. Tyler Dickerhoof: Just let it go. Yeah. Well, you know, there's always the people that, you know, they shave their head like where we were talking to this minute ago, I had a buddy last week. ⁓ there's three of us, two of us bald, right? I've embraced it. And the third one, we're kind of like, Hey, Kevin, you need to get with the program. And he goes, well, I like, I like, I like shaved my head. I shaved my head, but yet, you know, I just like what, what it was too easy. It was like, Esther And Paul: You called him out by name! I love that, Kevin, get on it! Tyler Dickerhoof: You like what's the problem? I think that's the for me when I first started shaved my head which was been I was 25 so almost 22 years ago and you know at first it was some clippers because I wasn't quite ready to go all the way there and then I got down I'm like dude now Like I would hate to have hair like deal with it It's so much easier a couple times a week in the shower to shave my head like I don't have to worry about going to the barber all those things now Esther And Paul: It's true. completely. Tyler Dickerhoof: you know, sometimes to be pampered in a chair and you know, they, they, know, give you a head massage, you know, the hot towel. Okay. Sure. But to do it every three weeks, like some of my buddies who my dad is as bald as we are. And yet he continues to go to the barber and he just has the horseshoe. like, do you understand that it could be so much easier? Just some clippers in the shower. It's so easy. But that's not what we're here to talk about. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Esther And Paul: Yeah. You The little wisps of hair there. ⁓ you're, preaching to the choir over here. You are preaching to the choir over here. I can tell you though, that, we, we, we spent a few weeks last summer in, Dubai and we went to, I went to a couple of the Turkish barber shops there, which it is a real experience. And it's the whole, shave, the, the, haircut and the whole thing. It is worth the time, as you said, just to be pampered once in a while. I don't want to be doing that all the time, but, ⁓ it is, it is kind of nice. Tyler Dickerhoof: Okay. ⁓ yeah. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Nah. Esther And Paul: So, that is not what we're here to talk about today. But we could, know, you know how it is. Tyler Dickerhoof: It's It's good. That's right. That's part of it. Yeah. Sometimes people, you know, they're hiding with their hair. So it is a part of it. It's like you just, just own it and let it go. Let's go there, Paul. Like, let's talk about it. Like, and I'm turning the tables, but I know this is going to be a conversation. It's like when you start shaving your head, like you said, there's a metric. It's a lot. I've never heard that. It's great. For me, it was kind of like, ah, you know, it's going back a little farther. Just heck with it. I'll be bald. My dad's bald. I'm like, Esther And Paul: You know what? Let's go there. Yep. Yep. Tyler Dickerhoof: But I think there is so much of an insecurity in, uh-oh, if I don't have hair, you know, there's an identity. Oh, you know, real men have hair. It's like, it's kind of, we're at the generation now where it's like, no, real men are bald and like, are okay with it. Like you got the rock, Jason, you stayed them. Like you go through the list, right? And yet it's so much of a, you know, again, it lines up and it's amazing is the things we hide, we're hiding the fact that yeah, we're going bald. Esther And Paul: Correct. Yeah. Tyler Dickerhoof: Like it makes us less of a person. And instead, as you did so many years ago, as I did myself, it's like, just embrace it. It's okay. Like, don't hide it. Don't get the fake tip to pay that everyone knows. Dude, it's fake. Like, come on. Just, just everyone knows. Everyone knows. It's a, it's really a parallel into this idea of, you know, kind of, as you mentioned earlier in the world we live in today, Esther And Paul: Right. Tyler Dickerhoof: in my charge to help people embrace authenticity is funny and laughable tongue and cheek is, ⁓ you know, we're talking about our hair and being bald. It's a real struggle. And there's almost this element that if I avoid it, it's not real. If I avoid the fear of, you know, what business, what AI is going to do to my business. If I avoid the fear of man, I'm in my forties and all of sudden there's younger people and they're going to be in leadership roles because I've kind of got jumped. Well, what value do I have? It's the fear of, ⁓ did I, am I too late? ⁓ You are mentioning, I think this is a bit of a piece to conversation. ⁓ You know, the hustle culture, go faster, go harder, go faster. And I had the opportunity on my podcast to interview Claude Silver. Esther And Paul: Right. Tyler Dickerhoof: ⁓ Claude Silver is the author of Be Yourself. ⁓ She is ⁓ the chief heart officer at Vanner Media. And we had this conversation, we talked about hustle. And I said, hey, help me understand Vanner Media, like the hustle culture. And she goes, ⁓ that's a good story. I'm like, all right, tell me. Because I've noticed a change. She goes, yeah. We had a lot of males, particularly. And they were in their mid to late 20s. And they come to Claude and they say, man, I just, don't know if I can do this. I don't know if this is the place for me. And she's like, what do you talk about? You are the perfect person for her. She's like, yeah, but I just, I feel like it's, it's, push, push, push, push, push. And I'm just like, feel like I'm in a pressure cooker. And at that point, you know, it was very much Gary leaning into the hustle grind. Not that that was him. He was very much the, the consistent just go, but that to some look like a hustle and grind, right? And it was just being the consistent and doing the work. And so they made a decision that day, says, they removed everything in their complex that had the word hustle on it because it gave the wrong perception and intention. And it was so amazing to me because as watching Gary and Esther And Paul: Yeah. Tyler Dickerhoof: You know, I'm not down with the F bombs. That's just not me. But I hear his heart. I'm like, that dude gets it. Gets it. And it was funny, just a day or two ago, he shared something about empathy. And I'm like, that's him. It's genuine. It's authentic. It is him. And admire it. And yet there was always this cognitive dissidence in my opinion. He had that heart. You'd hear him talk about it with people of, you know, he'd be out of school talking to a kid and just like, hey, keep doing it. You're doing fine. Esther And Paul: Yeah. Tyler Dickerhoof: Like I didn't get anywhere until I was almost 40. You're fine. Just keep going. Which is so counterintuitive to the, you better pour it all in and like, man, if you're not there by 25, pack it up and go home. You're done. it's, but that's the feeling sometimes we get from this outside perspective, the hustle and you know, hearing that from Claude and watching that and seeing them double down on the empathy of you're okay. Wherever you're at, that's fine. Just be you. Don't try to be somebody else. Last week I was at an event and Dan Martell spoke to the group I was in. So Dan Martell, buy back your time. In almost verbatim, Dan shared the same. And kind of this idea in his journey and his story and imagine you and listeners are familiar with it. I won't go into it in depth, but the challenges and he almost said, I had to reform because I was making it about all the wrong reasons. And in a season where his business, you know, nearly collapsed and just the, the, the change, the, the pain that he had to go through in six months. And he shares the story of all the lessons learned. And I can distill them down into one of these things. One thing, stop making it about you and make it about others. And when it comes back to our joke and comment about our hair, stop making it about you. Make it about others. Paul, have you heard this story about, ⁓ you know, when people look at a picture, like you take a picture of a group and who, who's the first person you look at when you, when you see a picture of, know, you're in, who's the first person you look at a hundred percent, there could be 99 other people and you're looking at yourself. And here's the ironic thing about that. Esther And Paul: I look for myself. Tyler Dickerhoof: Every single person does the exact same thing. They're not looking to say, Psh, Paul didn't shave his head today. It's getting a little, you know, shaggy up there. They aren't. They're looking at, is that what I look like in a picture? ⁓ you know, it was a bad hair day. ⁓ man, I really need to shave. I shouldn't have wore that shirt. Look at my sweaty pit stains. That's what everyone's looking at. The reality is no one else is. No. Esther And Paul: So fascinating. I love that. That's a, that's a great story. was thinking about something that you said though. One of the things that, that we've really been leaning into, ⁓ the last year or so, would say in terms of, in terms of our work and what we do has been a really big emphasis on values. And one of the things that's super interesting about values is the, is the safety piece and how different people find safety and how important that is to, to reach that, you know, and, and it, there's a, Tyler Dickerhoof: ⁓ Esther And Paul: There's a lot of work on it, but like I know that my safety is actually growth. So when, when things get hard for me, I need to, I need to see, I need to push myself a little more. need to stretch a little bit. I need to see where I'm growing. Right. ⁓ Esther, her safety is, ⁓ self actualization when things get tough for her, she needs to become the best version of herself. You know? So it's interesting as we, as we think about. Tyler Dickerhoof: Mmm, love it. I love that Esther And Paul: No, no. And then there's, different ones. You know, there are some people for whom safety, their safety is more of like a physical safety. So when things get down, I need to know that my environment is safe, that I feel good, or there there's other people for whom there's their safety spaces, like sort of love and belonging. Like when things get tough, I have my people around me and I know that I've got my support system. And once I have that, then I can build up. Right. But it's really interesting because when we see, when we talk about the Tyler Dickerhoof: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Esther And Paul: You know, that sort of hustle culture and shifting that hustle culture. It's really about that creating that values alignment so that people can find their own safety. Right. So what find what it is that they can, can dig into and sort of retrench and, and find that that strength and that authenticity within them. So, you know, it's one of the things that, that I think one of the biggest mistakes that, that we hear is that, you know, that this whole authenticity thing is fluff and all of that. When you know what mean? So, so that's one piece. And then the other piece that you talked about, which I thought was, was really, really great. The whole make it about others. We spend a lot of time talking about servant leadership, you know, so this, this whole idea of I'm, I'm here, I'm here because of you and I'm here for you. And what I, what I can do is, is make us make us all better by making you better, know? So I, I, I see definitely that, ⁓ that alignment, but here's my question for you. Tyler Dickerhoof: Okay, well I was just gonna say, you shared something that I, you know, if you have a question, ask a question. That's what you're here to do. I took that as like, man, let's expound on some of those, but let me hear your question, because maybe it'll expound on those instead of me jumping ahead. ⁓ Esther And Paul: Go ahead, see, Well, you tell me if it goes in a different direction, but my question is, so it sort of like, how do you define, how do you draw the line between what feels like hustle and what is sort of like healthy ambition? Tyler Dickerhoof: Let me go in what I was thinking ties into this and tied in. Have you, um, Mike Foster, he wrote the book seven primal questions. Are you familiar with that book? Okay. And what's interesting as you talked about this, this safety space, that's everything that it's about is safety. And what's really interesting is, is I, if you're familiar with those questions, I don't even, mean, am I enough? Uh, am I valued? Like, I don't know. off the top of my hand. Great questions. Right. Um, Esther And Paul: Okay. I am. Tyler Dickerhoof: But what's very interesting to me and is my journey and what I write about in the things we hide is the first part of that is recognizing our fears and insecurities. And one of the things that I do within my community when I interact with people, and usually I go first, right? I'm vulnerable. share my biggest insecurity is do I have value? Do I actually have value to people? And the roots of that go back into, you know, elementary school. you know, exacerbated in middle school into, you know, high school, which I found that's a lot of people. A lot of people find that like that's, that's the, the, the cauldron. But as I asked that question to people, it always kind of comes back to am I enough? Do I have value in kind of that whole thing? And so what's interesting as, as you talk about the, the, the safety pace place. Right? It's like, ⁓ when I'm growing, I know that I am going to add value to others. That's what I hear there. Right? When you talk about Esther and the self-actualization and that is, okay, I do have value. This is who I am. This is what I bring to the table. And it's so interesting to me because I think that the challenge we have in pushing to prove ourselves is we still have this opinion, whatever I am is not enough. And in the book, I write about a story about John Wooden, the basketball coach. So the famous UCLA basketball coach. And I've heard this story recounted from Sevels and others. And so I kind of elaborate on it. And John was famous for when he coached his team for two main things when it came to the start of the season. One, he would teach everyone how to put on their socks. You could have been a 21 year old, all American. It's going to go be the number one draft pick. And this is your senior season and the beginning of practice, Coach Wooden is sitting in front of you and all your teammates and saying, this is how you put on your socks. That's it. That's the start. The number two thing that he did, which I think was so amazing is he would take, you know, the teammates and some of them had been there for years, some were brand new and he'd let them play basketball and he'd watch them and he'd observe. He'd observe when they did something that added value to the team. They grabbed a rebound, they made an assist, they, they, you know, scored a basket. And most usually it was when they were scoring or making passes for other people to score. And then he would go back and he would say to the team, Hey, Bill, AKA Bill Walton, one of the greatest basketball centers ever. When you get the ball in this spot, you shoot a basket. You don't pass it. You don't do anything else. You shoot a basket. And then he'd go to somebody else and their spot on the court and like, you shoot here, if you're, you know, get it anywhere else, you need to pass it. Like, and he would guide them. And I tell the story because this is what I think is so challenging. What are you best at? What are you best at? You you hear all the time people say, ⁓ do your best, be your best, ⁓ bring out the best. What is it? Tell me what it is, cause I'd love to know. What are you best at? You you hear all the time people say, ⁓ do your best, be your best, ⁓ bring out the best. What is it? Tell me what it is, cause I'd love to know. And I remember it was about a year ago as I'm going through this process and one of my, I would say mentors and friends, it was John Gordon actually. And he talked about this element of best and I'm like, dude, I'm sick of hearing about best, but I have no idea what my best is. I don't know. How can I do something to bring out the best in others? And this lesson in this acronym hit me best starts with B be aware. Paul, you're aware of what you do well. Same point. You're aware of what Esther does. Well, if you're aware of what others do well, just be aware. That's what coach wouldn't help the players do as he helped them become aware. Well, not only the player that had the ball, but at that point, the other four players in the court all knew what they did. Well, so be aware. The next one, E, that's enough. You don't have to do any more. You don't have to do any less. If you are a great rebounder, every time you rebound the ball, you outlet it to the point guard and off and running to score. That's what our team values from you. Just do that. Don't think you have to be a three-point shooter, a ⁓ guy who scores on the ball. Just don't do that. Don't think today. You need to become something that you're not just... understand what you do great and that's enough. And then there's S and this is where it ties in. Serve. No, Coach Wooden said that to the players. It's like, Bill, when you're scoring, you're serving the team. know, somebody else, when you're passing the ball, you're serving the team. That's what you do best. Do more of it. So you're aware of that's enough and then serve people. And here's the last piece. And you only learn this through mentorship or experience. And the last one is timing. Let's go back to basketball. If you're familiar with basketball, you can get the ball in the key, know, the place right under the basket. You could get the ball there in your spot where you should shoot and it's not the right time to shoot. Cause you're at the wrong end of the court. Or that time is running out and all you have to do is hold the ball and the game is over and you won. You don't have to shoot. And so it's understanding this element of be aware of what you're great at. That's enough. Use it to serve people and then understand when is the right time to deploy it. That's your best. That's what best is. And yet, is you're gonna think about this and you're probably gonna send me a message later like, wow. ⁓ Esther And Paul: I love that. Tyler Dickerhoof: I hear all these people talk about best, but they don't describe it at all. I understand where that's confusing for so many people because it was just like, be your best. Help me. What is that? And at the same point, process like the players, some players probably knew what they were really good at, but they needed coach Wooden to believe in them and validate it. And once that happened, boom. All American Hall of Famer done. Esther And Paul: Yeah. Yeah. I love this. I'm going to tell you, I'm going to tell you from a completely different angle. don't know if you remember this from our previous conversation, but I'm an economist by training, by love and profession. so this whole process you're describing is incredibly parallel to what economists call comparative advantage. Right? So when we're thinking about what you're best at, there actually may be something Tyler Dickerhoof: Yes, sir. Love it. Bring it. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah. Esther And Paul: that I'm really good at, but if, if lots of other people are really good at it, that's not where my value is. Right. So you're looking for your comparative advantage and a big piece of that is having, so you'll hear me talk about this a lot. If you hear me speak in other venues, I talk a lot about basically big universe and small universe. And so many people are stuck in small universe. So they think that, that this immediate circle in, when within which they Tyler Dickerhoof: Yeah. Esther And Paul: they live or within which their minds live a lot of the time is the whole universe, but it's just the small universe. So, so much of the work that we do is trying to get people to see a bigger universe, right? And part of seeing that bigger universe is one of the things that brings that awareness, right? So if I'm so stuck in my mind about what's the value that I bring and what, you know, is it enough and all of that I'm, I'm in small universe thinking, right? So, so I'm trying to get to big universe where I can sort of look over it and go, ⁓ man, if I hadn't Tyler Dickerhoof: 100%. Esther And Paul: If I hadn't been there for this, if I hadn't contributed to this, that outcome wouldn't have happened. Right. If it's a basketball analogy, right. If I hadn't been there for the assist, if I hadn't made that pass, that basket wouldn't have happened. Right. So that awareness is part of, is part of understanding your comparative advantage. The other part is understanding that this is what you do do more of that. Right. That this is, this is what you bring. This is where your value is. And not, not only I love the enough. Tyler Dickerhoof: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Esther And Paul: because that's your jam. That's what it is, you know, and that's amazing. Tyler Dickerhoof: Because you know, everyone is constantly saying, I gotta do more. And you, it's kind of like the whole idea of the big universe, know, little universe, right? It's people feel safe in the little universe, because, ⁓ okay, then I'm not pressing to have to do more. But in that stretch and you say, hey, get into the big universe, well, I gotta do more? Like, no! You just do what you do, but you do it for people in a bigger way. Esther And Paul: Right? Tyler Dickerhoof: That's the big universe instead of, all right, just stay small and be a little safe. And, know, I don't know if you guys experienced this in the Dominican. I never been there, but you get into some locales that are fairly, um, either homogenous or they're pretty, um, close proximity and people fall into this mindset. Oh, well, this is just the way it is. You know, I happen to, know, different communities in the United States. I've seen this where some communities. Esther And Paul: Yeah, exactly. Tyler Dickerhoof: There's, you know, entrepreneurs galore. There are businesses that just boom, it is constantly iron sharpening iron. And then there's other communities where like, it's the classic, I've heard the story about crabs, you know, you put two crabs in a pot, you don't have to have a lid on it because the crab just pulls the other crab down in their crab communities. And to me, that's kind of the, the little universe is a crab community. We'll just pull everyone down so everyone's, you know, kind of even. It's this push for equality and equanimity and like, That has never been a part of human existence. That's not survivalism. It's not. How do you provide more resources for more to survive? You push towards, you know, not domination, but you have to thrive. Well, how do you thrive? You create more for others. That's just, you know, evolutionary economics in this context. And it's not, well, you know what? We're gonna make sure everyone has a little. Well, you make sure everyone has a little, there's still going to be people that don't have any period. You're never going to solve that. It's but if you give an upward ladder, this understanding the comparative advantage, right? We economics, I failed economics. Now I had other classes, but intro to econ, I failed as a senior because I didn't go to the class because I thought I could just take I already taken a bunch of economics and it was the first class. Esther And Paul: you Tyler Dickerhoof: in my, and I graduated 2001. So this was the fall of 2000, the first class at Cornell university where all of the, ⁓ homework had to be submitted online. And I was traveling some doing things. And so I, I got to the first preliminary exam and I started doing the math and I needed to get 118 points on a hundred point possible exam to pass the class, but it was already too late. So I had to get an F. Esther And Paul: ⁓ wow. Tyler Dickerhoof: From that experience led me to the probably the class that I loved the most and use the most today, which was interpersonal communication, all about body language, communicating, all those other things. That to say coming back to economics is the only way to screw up economics is mess with economics. When you put in those barriers, meaning, okay, Paul, guess what? You're great at XYZ. Now that's not enough. You need to now... add this to your plate. Okay, that's totally, that's not even my skill set. Well, that's what we need. Like, okay, I'm willing to work at it, but if that's not what I'm fitted to do, that's not my jam, then I'm no longer a fit here. That's okay. And again, messing with the economics is when we put false barriers in there, you inflate it, you, you decide we're going to put in a floor. Well, that's going to drive up the entire price of everything, not be a support. It just, you got to live with that sometimes. And it's the same here when we lead people. Well, you need to work harder. You need to be here more. It's like, really? Is that going to lead me to a more success? And we saw this during COVID and now the years after it's like, well, the only way you can be successful is if you're sitting in an office, you know, 10 hours a day. Well, to me, it's pretty amazing. And you're close enough to the history of education. There's a lot of people today that are 35 and younger that most last couple of years of their college education, they never stepped in a classroom. It was a hundred percent online. So you're telling me the people that were able to accomplish that before AI and cheating, they were able to get a degree and you're telling me they can't be self-sufficient work at an office at a home and do high quality work. Who's the one missing? Esther And Paul: Exactly. I was just thinking as you were telling, as you were telling that story, was struck by one of the most emotionally challenging jobs I've ever had, which is that for a while I worked for the U S department of state. I was a diplomat. And when you, when you come in as a diplomat, they it's, it's a pretty rigorous, ⁓ selection process. they, know, and this is to be a diplomat means that you're working outside of the United States. Right. So I, Tyler Dickerhoof: Mm-hmm. Esther And Paul: I got accepted, I got accepted, I went through the whole training process and then they have what's called, it's called Flag Day, which is where they assign you to your country and it's called Flag Day because they give you a little flag, right? So I went in, most of the diplomats that when they first come in, I would say are probably late 20s. Most of them have done some sort of like ⁓ school of foreign service kind of training. They're coming straight out of their masters. There's a significant proportion of them. Tyler Dickerhoof: Mmm. Esther And Paul: for whom this job is sort of their first real job, right? That's an overgeneralization, but that's largely true. Okay, great. I was not in that situation, right? I had a PhD in economics. I'd been a professor for 14 years at that point, you know, and all of that. So I came in and ⁓ on Flag Day, ⁓ I forgot to mention, I speak six languages, okay? So on Flag Day, I get handed my flag and my flag says Jamaica. Tyler Dickerhoof: Yeah. Mm-hmm, yeah. Esther And Paul: And I love Jamaica. It was a wonderful place, but they speak English in Jamaica. They could have picked any other diplomat to go, but they sent me. I'm like, okay. Okay. So let's go to Jamaica. We're going to, we're going to do, we're going to make the best of it. ⁓ I went, I went there and ⁓ I was assigned to work in the consulate, which again, there isn't, there is an econ office there, right? That does economics. And ⁓ I kind of. reached out to my boss and I said, Hey, well, you know, I, kind of have this expertise. This would be a really good place for me to at least pitch in sometimes. And they said, absolutely not. You're, you are a generalist, so you're going to be here and this is what you're going to do. And I went, okay, fine. Literally about three days after I had that conversation with my boss, the folks from the econ section come down and they're like, ⁓ we could really use your help. understanding basically what our job should be and how we're going to set our metrics and what we're going to do. And man, it was all I could do to say, ⁓ I'm just a generalist. don't know. You know what I mean? But, but of course, of course I helped them out, but it, it left that taste in my mouth, right? Of, of man, this is so deeply misaligned. It's so deeply inefficient, right? And that's as an economist, that drives me insane, right? Seeing, seeing that, that wasted energy, the wasted Tyler Dickerhoof: Yeah. Yeah. Esther And Paul: Potentially it ended up being a, I don't want to say a no growth job for me because I did learn a lot, but it's not a job that stretched me in any way. And it's not a job where I felt that I was contributing. So it's, it is the only job that I have ever in my life left. And I've had a job every day since I was almost 15. ⁓ it's the only time I've ever left a job without having another job lined up, you know, and I have a family and children to support, but I just, I just couldn't do it anymore. You know, so. Tyler Dickerhoof: Yeah. Yeah. Mmm. Yeah. Couldn't do it. Esther And Paul: It's, it's, it's, it's such a fascinating thing. How important at the end of the day that that alignment, that understanding that not only that you have value, but that you're actually getting to use your value, you know, in some way. Tyler Dickerhoof: ⁓ yeah. Well, and I think the big crux there is it you know as you share that story you got to the point where you understood that you know, there's a lot of people that it takes a moment to get there and You know wooden was the coach that helped players understand that ⁓ You know, you think we each have the opportunity there are people in our lives and and to me that's a big part of leadership is helping people See what they can't see That's it to believe in them That's more about leadership and and having that vision and helping connect the dots then then really what most people think it's not managing It's not my great. No, it's help people see what they can't see Well part of that internally is are we doing the the growth the self actualization? To appreciate what we're good at and pressure test and ask people it's like hey I think I'm pretty good at this like would you like am I off base? And yet it takes in a tremendous amount of humility and this authentic vulnerability to go to someone and say, ⁓ I, I, I have an economics background. Like, ⁓ wow. ⁓ okay. You can absolutely help us instead of diffuse it because, you know, I'm just making up a story all of a sudden. ⁓ we screwed this up. We should have put Paul over here. We put them here. That's just the assignment. got to roll with it. We just got to follow orders instead of saying, this doesn't quite match up. Like, let's shuffle the deck here. Let's, you know, instead of him being a starter, he needs to be the sixth man. Cause when he comes in, he torches everyone. Like, ⁓ you know, there's the notoriety, the storter starter, but like, Hey, what helps the team best? And I think that's, that is this understanding of what keeps us either as leaders or individuals. from getting to that point. And that to me is the things we hide. The things we're afraid of saying, ⁓ I'm not good enough because I'm bald. I'm not good enough because I don't have this amazing head of hair that people envy. No, you are what you are. That's okay. Instead of lying into those, going into those fears and insecurities of saying, yep, that's it. I can own it. Well, then you start to own how it shows up. Esther And Paul: Yeah. Tyler Dickerhoof: And the big part, and I use this example of the window in the mirror. You know, a lot of times people say, Oh, you know, take a look in the mirror. All right. It's a liar. I don't know if you noticed this when we started recording, I mirrored my video. don't know if you could tell it. So I'm looking at my camera and I can read my name, Tyler Dickerff, right? Instead, if I, if I could change the setting, I don't know if it'll let me, um, while we're recording, right? I just flipped it. I know if you can tell that, see it now, the sudden it's backwards. And you know, that is something that this idea as leaders, we say, hey, go look in the mirror. Well, it's a liar. So you've ever looked in the mirror and say you have a blemish on one side of your face, it's on the right side of my face in the mirror, it's on the left. Well, that's what happens in all of our interactions with others is we look in the mirror, we're like, I'm good. You look through the window and say, Tyler, dude, you're a hot mess. discrepancy is what holds people in saying, Paul, you need to be a generalist. I don't want to admit that we placed you in the wrong place or I don't want to look at the team and saying, dude, you could actually serve us way better here over this position. Because then all of a sudden the fear of like, oh, what if I get it wrong? Go back to that moment. They move you. They take you out of the generalist. They put you in the economics. All of a sudden it gets heaps like, why did you move Paul? Dude's got a PhD in economics. They're asking him for help. That's where he's best serving us. Instead of having that confidence, they're like, well, if I move him, I'm going to get fired because I'm not allowed to do that. In that window in the mirror, and we're going through this conversation again, is this idea of you have to be confident enough, and okay, that's who I am, to get a perspective through the mirror, but then go to the window and say, Paul, what do you see? And then be willing to allow someone else to tell you that. And sometimes that's a peer. It's like the buddies that are bald shave your head, dude. Like it's okay. It's okay. You're like, I love you. I care about you. Well, it's the same thing through the window. It's like, I'm doing this not to tear you down, but like to show you what you can't see. I had a mentor tell me this maybe a year or so ago. Everyone talks about self-awareness, right? It's impossible. There is no way. No way for me to be fully self-aware. Now I can gain awareness. I gain awareness by how people react to me, what people in, you know, that, that, you know, good and bad share with me. You can't filter that. Somebody's got a axe to grind. All right, you got to take that. And then somebody's over here. like, ⁓ you're the best over here. You're somewhere in the middle. Right. And it's that understanding that coming back to what we said, it's, if we don't get there because we're afraid and we're hiding something. And we just think if I put these barriers up, that'll keep me safe. But those barriers just block us from being able to interact, relate, connect, serve other people. It keeps us from leading. Esther And Paul: Incredible. I'm going to have a couple of thoughts. I have a couple of thoughts and then I have a question for you. ⁓ Thought one is a random one because it'll tell you a little bit about how my brain works. like this thing and this idea of looking in the mirror and the mirror being a liar. ⁓ When I was ⁓ when I was in college, I did ⁓ I did some time abroad ⁓ in France and I happened to work at the Musée d'Orsay, which is a beautiful museum. Tyler Dickerhoof: Go for it. Yeah. Esther And Paul: anyone who hasn't gone, you really need to go. It's an old train station that was converted into a museum and it's mostly impressionist art. But what was, what was in there for a little while was this painting by a Belgian painter named Rene Magritte. And it's really famous. think most people have seen it. It, it, it's the painting of a pipe and underneath it, says, ce ne pas une pipe, which in French means this is not a pipe. And the whole point is it's not a pipe. It's a painting of a pipe, but it's not a pipe. Right. And so that what you're looking at is not reality, right? It's a, it's a distortion. It's a portrayal of reality. Right. So, so understanding the difference between what you think you see and what is real is where, is where that growth lies. So that's really fascinating. That's what came into my mind as you were giving that analogy. The other, the other thing is, one of the topics that I speak about a lot is what, I call the cost of inaction. So when we have, when we have this fear, Tyler Dickerhoof: That's great. I love it. Mmm. Esther And Paul: ⁓ it, as exactly as you said, like, I mean, it stalls you, it keeps you in place. It keeps you in the small universe. And then thinking about, you know, the, the work, a lot, a lot of the awareness work for me is understanding what happens if I stay on this perceived safe path that I'm on. And I say perceived because so often what, what I think in my small world is safety is actually not. Right. So that, that understanding, what if What if I stay here? What am I missing out on? What am I giving up? What pieces of myself am I giving up to stay in this, in this spot that feels safe right now? What am I not doing? What is it? What's that thing that you're not doing? And it could be anything. I mean, in my world, it can be anything. It can be, what's the, what's the hard conversation you're not having with a loved one? What's the, what's the, what's the education that you're not seeking. What's all of that? You know, I spend a lot of time talking to young, ⁓ black and brown kids and, know, thinking about what their, what their future can look like. And, and, ⁓ such a big piece of it is, is giving them that slightly bigger universe than what they've got, because there's so much of that thinking you were, you were mentioning it earlier, that, that idea of you're told from, from childhood, this is your place. This is where you belong. And. And there's cultural reinforcement that goes behind that, right? That if you're trying to be something different, then you're trying to be something that you're not, and that's not meant for you and all of that. And I've spent my life and my career trying to debunk that kind of thinking, but it's that. It's that whole idea of what are you giving up? What are you not doing? And at the same time, people say to you that it costs me too much. It's going to cost me too much. And it goes back even to the bald hair, right? Tyler Dickerhoof: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Esther And Paul: Like people say, I don't, I don't want to do it. I'm afraid to do it because people are going to make fun of me. My wife's going to make fun of me. My kids are going to make fun of me and, it's going to cost me too much somehow. You know, but the, all of that, you know, it's just sort of getting people to take that jump and, move to the next place. Tyler Dickerhoof: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that the, you know, the piece of the greatest risk is not taking a risk. Yeah. And ⁓ there's a, one of the first elements that I understood ⁓ kind of creates these, the, I would say the walls, the protective mechanisms of our fears and insecurities. And I call them the four walls. And you mentioned one of them inaction, I call it inactivity. And it's kind of this theory, if I don't address it, it won't hurt me. Esther And Paul: 100%. Tyler Dickerhoof: If I don't have the conversation with my wife, a coworker, someone else, it'll just kind of play out. Like I won't have to like put myself at risk. ⁓ one of the other walls is insensitivity. Meaning I'm just going to be a jerk. Like, Hey, Tough luck. It kind of like there's an element and I don't take it this way exactly, but you could play it out when you were talking about being the diplomat in Jamaica where you're like, hey, I could do this. I got all these languages like tough luck, suck it up. This is what you're doing instead of, you know, being empathetic and say, ⁓ all right, help me understand more. Cause maybe I miss something right. And that insensitivity of just like, I'm going to be a hammer. Cause I don't want to be empathetic because then I don't know how to act after that. One of the other walls is isolation. You know, people that will just say, I'm not a team player. want to go play by my, I want to go do something by myself where it's just on me. And a mentor share at one point is people that say they're self-made haven't made much. Not possible. It's just not possible. You can't do anything great alone. And this idea of isolation and leadership is if I extract myself away from some, everyone else, then it's that little universe, right? Shrinks down the last one. Esther And Paul: You Tyler Dickerhoof: in which we've kind of alluded to and it was my solace, my wall of protection is intensity. I'll just put my head down and push, you know, so kind of you have the inactivity to a point of I'm not going to anything, let it play out as opposed to there's a wall there. I'm going through it and I don't care what it looks like on the other side. And as I conceptualize those four walls, build a house and you know, we lean against a wall for safety or maybe into a corner. And as I recognize those are our the response to our fears and insecurities. And you know, there'll be this idea and I first thought, oh, you you could take down those walls just by brick by brick by having conversations and realize, no, those walls will always be there because you can get come to grips with being bold, right? Okay, I got past the fear and insecurity of what people are gonna think, but then all of sudden, oh, now all of a sudden I'm fat, okay? And now that perception of, oh, people judge me by my body condition, my makeup, and maybe I'm super skinny, I don't have any muscle tone. Now all of sudden, the hair is one thing and now it's all of sudden a new insecurity. How do I respond to that? Likely the same way. And so what I recognize coming back to the window and the mirror is like, the narcissist, I just came up with this last week, in the book, the narcissist is the one whose walls are lined with mirrors. They're like, man, I look good, I look good, I look good. It's not me, it's everyone, I'm good. The healthy person puts windows in their walls and they clean their windows. They, they, go through the action of, you know, interacting with people in different ways to say, all right, what do I, what can't I see? Help me understand what I don't understand because I only have my perspective. I don't have yours. And when you give me your perspective, then all of sudden we have a relationship. And you know, so the coming back to this, this central idea, if we get stuck in that house, and leaning against those walls. We fall into the pattern of starting to create the narrative of where I'm comfortable, other people will be comfortable too. When I'm unwilling to take a risk, that means they're unwilling to take a risk. Instead of saying, hey, if we link arms together, we're both strong. That's it. That's how we move forward. Like one plus one in human economics is not two. It's a multiple beyond that. Plain and simple. And that's been replicated in so many ways and it's like that's how you survive in that vulnerability of say, this is what I'm good at, this is what I can do. And also coming to grips with like, had a guest tell me one time, he's written like, 17 books. He goes, he never thought he'd write a book because his fourth grade teacher, when he struggled to read, cause he's dyslexic said, ⁓ I don't even worry about reading. You'll never write one. He's written 17. Now how he goes about writing a book compared to you or I is probably different, but yet he can do it. And so this idea of those stories that we are told that then push us into that house to find the protection. Esther And Paul: Yeah. Tyler Dickerhoof: and then we're afraid to go to the window and say, Hey Paul, what do you see? That's what keeps us stunted and away from being authentic. And it's not this idea that we can get rid of our fears and insecurities like, Nope, you're sitting here in the room. All right, I see you. Great. You're going to come over and slap me in the head. And then I have to deal with it instead of, you know, hiding it. Say, ⁓ yeah, okay. You're here. Great. Now do I own how I respond? And then you go through the practice of when it shows up to say, ⁓ yeah, no, you don't have bearing here. I know I'm really good at passing the ball. Is my talent shooting? No, I'm a 30 % shooter. That's it. But you know what? I lead the team in assists and steals and all those other things. And my team is better for it. I don't have to look like the top scorer to be a value to the team. And that's just being authentic and saying, yeah, that's who I am. Esther And Paul: That's the round out to the comparative advantage story, which is exactly that. When you're using your comparative advantage, when I'm using my comparative advantage, we're doing it together, we're linking arms, that's where the increasing returns come. That's where one plus one equals three. That's where we put that together. I was thinking also about... ⁓ Tyler Dickerhoof: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Esther And Paul: I really love the imagery of sort of your, the four walls and what they're lined with. think that is, that is potent, right? Is your, is your, is your, are your walls lined with mirrors or are they, are your walls lined with windows? was thinking about, ⁓ and then, and then what you said after that of basically I see from my perspective, but I don't see from, from your perspective. Right. And so ⁓ one of the, one of the things that I love to do is to do what, what, what we call a systems analysis. where the whole point of the systems analysis is exactly that. So here's my point of view and here's my perspective, but then I'm going to go to another, another node, another hub within the system. And I'm going to look at it from that perspective. And ⁓ man, look at all these things. I didn't see before. Look at all these things I didn't account for before. Look at all this information I didn't have. And then look at all the skills that I don't have that somebody else does have. Right? So bringing that all together, I think is, is huge. I have, I have a question for you that, that I hope won't take us in a too terribly different direction, but maybe it will. One of the things that, that I see, ⁓ and as I said, we've had the opportunity to, to, to live and work all over the place, right? Just, just last year we worked in, Esther and I worked in 15 different countries last year. And one of the biggest, I think, I think unfounded, but one of the biggest fears that I see from people. Tyler Dickerhoof: Okay. Esther And Paul: is the fear of technology, artificial intelligence, and they're sort of already questioning their own value, and then they see this thing that's out there, ready to strip more value from them. I'm wondering if you have a take on that, you? Tyler Dickerhoof: ⁓ yeah, what's funny is we were wrapping up the previous ⁓ kind of piece. I was thinking about that. You know, this idea and fear of AI and it's gonna displace me and all of a sudden the value I have is no longer value. You're still a human. There's value. There's value in some concept. I come from a farming background and it was funny the other day I was thinking, it's like, you know, the... turn of the 20th century was probably really the advent of when tractors and implements really took over, took over from horses. Now, some parts of the world, there's still a lot of horses. And the farmers that said, man, I'm not gonna buy into that technology. Man, that is, know, this, that, whatever, I'm gonna stay with horses. Well, they're Amish, that's okay. They're a thriving community, you can do it. But yet, if you look at the amount of food produced throughout the world, The lion's share is done with implements. Guess what? We're in the same age. Now, there's still people that drive those tractors. I was talking to a guy yesterday and we were talking about, you know, the airlines and pilots. And, you know, some planes are so sophisticated now, pilot doesn't have to do much. But you know what? They have to sit there at the controls in case they need to do something. You know, it's like the Waymo cars. that, you know, probably people have seen the TikTok and the videos of the Waymo cars and Phoenix or wherever and it starts pouring raining and the car stops because it doesn't know what to do. You know, there needs to be a human element still involved there. So this idea that, you know, I think Jensen Huang mentioned it the other day. It's like, people shouldn't look at AI as replacing people. It's like, how can it actually, like, I'm not getting rid of people. I'm hiring more people so we can do more. Esther And Paul: you Tyler Dickerhoof: And I think that's the element that I embrace with AI. And one of the positions that I think in the next five years is going to be massive. Take all the people that are computer science, technology, you know, that has been displaced because AI can do your job. can code. Go be an AI implementation specialist. I'm going to come to you, Paul, and say, here's how we create a suite of using all the technologies. And it is going to massively you know, uptick your work, you know, what you guys can do as an organization. That is a role that you like, you can't hire that person fast enough. So the person getting laid off because they're like, Oh, well, I don't, you know, all you have to do is pivot. Like go understand, Oh, you can still use the same. You know, it's kind of been going back to, know, when you were in Jamaica, it's like, all right, you know, I can be in this generalist, but how can I still use my economics? You probably did without even realizing it. Now, did you get to do it all the time? No. And that's where it's kind of like, you have to scan that horizon to say, where can I go? I thought about this this morning. Again, cow, my background, agriculture, an industry that probably is more attractive to the 20 to 25 generation throughout the world than any other. guess is agriculture because agriculture people don't realize is tremendously technologically advanced. We talked about the tractors, right? We talked about all of those things. And there is a place for AI in all of it. But yet there's still a place where you need to grab a shovel, a fork. Sometimes you got to be willing to do work with your hands. And as I see it and understand that work, AI will never replace. But being able to blend those two together, it's like the trades, the people that, like I have a friend who has a, this, AI or this laser scanning camera that can go into a new build and will scan the whole thing, create this picture, measure everything, give it to the contractor saves them so much time. Well, but it still takes someone to verify the camera set up. It still takes a person, but yet it makes their job so much easier. Like there are roles for people to do that. And it's just willing to say, okay. Instead of looking at it, I'm sitting behind a desk. in whatever locale that's my job is now I may be in a different place, but I think we've, we've massively seen as a culture. I'm not going to say this for everyone, but there's a lot of people over the last 10 years that have said, I don't want to be in a high rise and you know, living in an apartment and never put my foot in the dirt. There's there, there's a human quality to that, that we absolutely must have. that closeness to the earth, that ethereal. And like I said, I think there's huge opportunities, tremendous, but it's not going to look like, you know, with an econ degree, it's like, Hey, go be a trader in Wall Street. Honestly, computers do that now. There's no place for that person. Like it doesn't exist anymore. Esther And Paul: Exactly. I love, I love where this conversation is going for one, just to, just to sort of talk backwards, the, the idea of, of grounding is something that I think has really, ⁓ taken root to, sort of use the analogy, but, this idea of, I want to sometimes, as you said, put, put my body in nature and, feel those things and, the, and Tyler Dickerhoof: Mmm. Esther And Paul: having that rise to the level of priority for people, think is... Tyler Dickerhoof: I think much of the world it has. COVID drove it, you know, in so many ways. And I think, you know, some of the popular media, whether it's Yellowstone or some of those shows that drove it even more and fantasized what agriculture is. Now, agriculture is probably one of the most dire industries in our world today because economics affect it more than anything else. But I also think, you know, it's like anything, you know, can't go down forever. Esther And Paul: ⁓ yeah, I agree. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tyler Dickerhoof: Whoever goes down has to rebound and especially, I think we still wear clothes and eat. So yeah. Esther And Paul: I've had the opportunity in my life and career to come across different kinds of, of agricultural technology. And I think it's fascinating. ⁓ man. The stuff that is done out there, especially what I've, I've had a chance to see it's sort of these harvesting machines that go through and make sure that they select what's, what's ready, what's not and leave what's not ready for one, for one more and more that that is AI it's AI doing that. And the, interesting thing about AI is that Tyler Dickerhoof: ⁓ yeah. ⁓ yeah. ⁓ yeah. Esther And Paul: there's somebody telling it what it is. You know what I mean? There's somebody whose job it is to do all of that, you So that's really fascinating. You said something that also that I think is really, really important that I want to talk a little bit more about, which is this idea of pivot. Like this isn't working. That's not going to be a thing anymore and you need to pivot. I want to highlight it because I know that it's something that I have, I, Esther, Tyler Dickerhoof: Yeah, yeah, there's a human quality behind it, yeah. Esther And Paul: Lots of people have done in our lives. I know actually that when I was on your show, ⁓ little over a year ago, we were in a very different situation because at that time, at that moment, we had all of our revenue lined up for the rest of 2025. had everything set. had signed contracts for a substantial amount of money and it was going to be great. ⁓ and because of the change in. ⁓ administration in the US, every single one of our contracts was cut. Every single one. We were left without any revenue whatsoever. And so it was very much a forced pivot. We had to recreate ourselves and it ended up being a great year for us, but it was a reinvent yourself. was a talk about asking yourself, am I providing value? What do I have? Is it enough when you just saw everything from basically the top come down and say what you do is not what I'm gonna fund anymore and that's not gonna get any support anymore. the message. Tyler Dickerhoof: Let me just, too often, and I don't know how you and Esther felt about this, but too often people look at ⁓ a contract or a paycheck as their value. And what I think as we're sitting here and you can attest is that had no bearing on the value. All it said is the market was no longer open. That farmer's market along that street closed, so you had to go to a different avenue. And I would imagine as you're bringing, yeah, I would imagine as you're bringing up, you're better off for it because you understood, yeah, okay, that wasn't stable for all the reasons, right? Good and bad. You're not saying it's all good. I'm not saying it's all bad. It is what it is. Like I've gone through that. You know, I have a degree in animal science. I'm gonna speak about leadership, do leadership coaching. mean, it's... Esther And Paul: That's the T in best. Tyler Dickerhoof: Like that getting hung up there can be such a small universe mindset. Now, here's what I do know. And it takes growth is if we're continuing to hide, then it continues to impound like compound on us. If we address it, what it is, it's kind of one of the things that I've understood. And I mentioned the four walls and, you know, there there's people that The outside world, that's where all the problems are. It was the administration. It was them. It was the big bad this. It was that as opposed and or other people say, ⁓ man, they just, I'm not any good. I don't have any value. It's like, no, the truth is in the middle. It's not either one of those. ⁓ they no longer, the timing was no longer. Okay. Well, we need to go apply differently. That's okay. But the, the, the personal confidence, the awareness, the Having belief in saying Paul man what you guys are doing is great This is who needs your service now no longer them and it's actually gonna be way more impactful and fulfilling and you were just kind of lulled away is because all that's easy it looked good as opposed to taking a risk and saying, know it they as they say it's not the people that ⁓ You know make a million dollars and then they say that the first million is easy, the second million, the third million, that's when it gets harder because you have to say, what am I willing to walk away from for something bigger? And you get out, oh, things are pretty good. You know, I got a stable job. And then all of sudden, boom, you get laid off and like, yeah, that's not a stable job at all. Then that can happen to anyone. It's all right. How do I do this? What do I do? Like, where am I willing to take those chances? Yeah. Yeah. Esther And Paul: And it played out exactly as you're saying, actually, we ended up realizing exactly that that wasn't the people we were going to serve. We found a, we part of the pivot was finding that that audience. And I think that we had, I don't think I know that we actually had a much, much deeper impact because of that pivot that we made. So, and it's, it was, yeah. Yeah. No, no. Tyler Dickerhoof: Yeah, yeah. It doesn't mean they're not hard. It doesn't mean like you didn't feel like you got kicked between the legs. Don't get me wrong, I've been there. But then when you get beyond that and you have the ability to say, okay, that doesn't define me. How can I improve? What can I do? What was I missing? Where did I take for granted? Okay, those are real things you have to address. Be realistic in it. But now, okay, where can I move forward? Esther And Paul: Absolutely. Let me ask you this. So, so I know you've got your book out. ⁓ and you've been, you've been doing this kind of work for a while. I've, know, you're, you're not a newbie to this. So what, ⁓ what, why was this the right time for a book? Tyler Dickerhoof: Yeah. One of the really practical reasons is, and honestly it's a bigger reason than not, is my youngest son is a sophomore in high school. And as I've had the opportunity to interview a lot of authors like yourself and others, ⁓ one of the things that was implored upon me is it's a lot of work. And I didn't want to be in a place to where I couldn't be at his basketball games or when he wasn't driving. that all of a sudden it's like, no, I'm out of town, I'm this or that. And all of a sudden they're driving and I can cater my schedule. it's like, that's part of it. Number two is also from doing the work and distilling it and realizing that as I continue to kind of move along that journey, this is the next step to being able to bring out my best and serve people. And it's just a step on that pathway. Is it gonna be? the best book ever written? No, it's my first. I get that. Is it gonna impact people? I truly think it will. ⁓ That's out of my hands. That's, you know, in a power bigger than me. And I just am willing to do the work and then continuing to do the work and saying, all right, well, this is the pathway. How do I help and serve people? you know, continue to go through the next phases. Like, ⁓ you know, recognizing our fears and insecurities, owning how they show up and reframing our mindsets and beliefs is the start. You know, the next piece of that that I had to go through is I had to grow, come back to growth. had to grow for myself. I had to grow for others. Then I had to grow with others. That led me down a path of saying, ⁓ now I have a vision of what life could be. Well, how do I connect and bring people with me so I can influence them? And so that's kind of, as you can already say, there's the next couple of books already set up and knowing that, ⁓ that is just the way life is. Yeah. So. Esther And Paul: Yeah. Yeah. I can, I can tell you from, from our experience that having, having done the first book, the, the ideas for the, for the follow on books, the, could, I could have met the man. could have done it so much better. You know, kind of a thing is, is there. So that's, that's great. I I'm, I'm, I've had the chance to, to dig into the book a little bit. ⁓ I know that the, that sort of the, the, the sort of origin story, the hook that goes behind it is, is a really heavy one. So for our, for our listeners, I would recommend you, I definitely recommend grabbing this book because it's, I'm, how do I say, one of the things that we coach people on is storytelling and, and how it is that you bring people in, know, and my favorite one, one of my favorite ones is, ⁓ if you ever get a chance to watch it, and this will come back to your book, but if you ever get a chance to watch it, there is, ⁓ Tyler Dickerhoof: Yeah. Yeah. Esther And Paul: ⁓ man. just, I just blanked on his name. What's name of the actor that, that played the black Panther that Chadwick Boseman, Chadwick Boseman, there's a, there's a great clip on YouTube where he's giving, ⁓ a commencement speech and he talks about, and he talks about one time when he met Muhammad Ali, ⁓ and when he was a student at that same school. And so it's him, he's, he's coming out and, and he, as he's telling the story, he talks about, he's walking through the campus. Tyler Dickerhoof: ⁓ yes. Hmm, yes. Esther And Paul: And he sort of looks up lost in his thoughts and there's Ali in front of him. And that Ali, this mythical guy, and that he talks about how as he's approaching him, they acknowledge each other. And for a moment, Ali does sort of the classic stance that he has. And Chadwick talks about how in just that second, you felt like you could fly like a butterfly, sting like a bee. And it's just... He tells the story of an interaction that happened over what must've been about 15 seconds, but he brings you into that space. You know? ⁓ and I, and I say that because that story one is because I think that's one of the elements of good storytelling of bringing people into that space. Like, like they were there with you. and I, and I, and I felt that immediately as I, as I started reading about sort of the, the, the origin of the story and what Tyler Dickerhoof: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Esther And Paul: what sort of motivated this book for you. I don't wanna give it away necessarily, but I encourage people who appreciate that kind of storytelling to pick it up. And honestly, the whole reason for that is that that's what makes you wanna keep reading it. That's what opens you to the wisdom and wisdom is the lived experience that goes behind things, which is I think what I value most. Tyler Dickerhoof: Yeah. It's okay. Yeah. What I was gonna, so you know what Paul is alluding to is ⁓ I tell this story about when I was 14 and my younger brother died in a farming accident. He was three and I drove over him. And I recount that story and one of the elements that I wanna just impress upon is it ⁓ wasn't something that I thought I hid, but I didn't talk about it. You know, people knew, but it wasn't something that I understood impacted me. And I think that's kind of really the whole impetus of the things we hide is, you know, someone could ask you like, Hey, Paul, you your ball, you know, it's that element. It's like, yeah, I started shaving my head because, you know, I was losing my hair and I was okay with it. Like to you, that's not a story. But then all of sudden, if you go into the stories like, yeah, you know, it took me a long time to wrestle with it. And I was afraid of what people think and I'm making things up, but those are the realities that happens for people. And for 25 years of my life, I didn't really give it a second thought. But then all of sudden there was a moment where I did, was confronted in saying, this is how you deal with things. And it was an illusion to my intensity and being that bulldozer that just pushed myself to accomplish whatever. And the ultimate next step in why this story And you asked earlier why not? Well, you know, it's been a kind of work in progress to develop it. But the big reason is so my brother who was three when he died, his name is Joel. His life has purpose. Because it's being able to tell the story of his life as a three year old and passing away that didn't end that day because now some, you know, 32 years later still has purpose because we're sitting here talking about it. And we're talking about the impact it had on me and impact had on others. I don't know. But yet as I've gone through that and done the work and realize the impact of that moment for me is very similar to a lot of other people. And there's one element that I've, I've, I've really grasped and understood the last seven, eight years that I've worked through this and whatever point it came along the way, every single person. listening to this, just as much as you, Esther, in the other room, everyone has fears and insecurities. There's no one exempt. There's no one in the world. No one at any point in time that ever lived is exempt. There's historical documents going back tens of thousands of years recounting fears and insecurities. It's not new. But I think the opportunity to say, do we hide from them? Or do we recognize and embrace them and say, yep, they're there and then own how we show up. That determines, are we gonna live in a small universe or big universe? Esther And Paul: I love it. It all comes back to big and small universe. love that Tyler. I cannot tell you how much I've appreciated this time that we've had together. can you, do you want to give folks ⁓ a rundown of, of where they can find you and that sort of thing? Yep. Tyler Dickerhoof: Yes, sir. Yeah, it's been great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, ⁓ my website, Tyler Dicker hoof.com go there. You can see all the good stuff. ⁓ the book, the things we hide book.com available at all the bestsellers, ⁓ you know, Amazon, all those things. ⁓ you can also buy it directly there on that website for now. And so, ⁓ yeah, thank you so much, Paul. ⁓ that will be coming out probably in the summer of 26. So that will be coming out later this year. ⁓ for sure. You get to, ⁓ Esther And Paul: Do you have an audio version? Amazing. Tyler Dickerhoof: ⁓ Hear my voice Esther And Paul: That's even better. I love it when it's the actual author reading it. There's some... Tyler Dickerhoof: Yeah, to my wife, she'll grin. We're talking about one day and she, you somebody asked and I said, yeah, I'll record it. And they're like, can't you have somebody else? We hear your voice all the time. And I'm like, thanks a lot. Appreciate it. But no, I actually, you know, I've enjoyed the book writing process. I'm going to look into that season and enjoy it as well. So. Esther And Paul: Yeah. Well, we wish you all the best luck on it. ⁓ I look forward to hearing more about it and seeing what I know is going to be the amazing success of it. And I think more importantly, the impact that it has on those who read it and those who hear the message that it has to share. So I cannot thank you again so much for being on here with us today. And for all our listeners, I really hope that this was just what you needed. See you next time. Tyler Dickerhoof: Thank you.