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"We Had No Structure to Fully Structured" — Building Sales Process in Real Time · Selling AI

• Warren Kucker: Hey there and welcome to another episode of Selling AI. Today I'm talking with Jim Robertiello, Director of B2B Sales at Poppin, a vertically integrated workplace furniture company that's grown from like a startup into a nationally recognized brand over the past decade. Jim was Poppin's, one of Poppin's early account executives, started back in 2014, part of the sales process as they were building it from scratch and has since launched markets in York, LA, and Miami. Here's what makes this episode interesting. Jim is selling a physical product in a world obsessed with software and AI, which means the selling challenges look a bit different. So today we're digging into channel complexity, persona-driven selling, what Pipedgen actually looks like when you're in a commercial furniture space, and whether AI has any business showing up in the world where you're selling something that you sit on in the office. So, all right, let's get into it. Jim, thanks so much for being on the show. Jim: Yeah, thanks for I appreciate you having on. Warren Kucker: Great. Well, listen, you had an interesting path. Pharmacels, corporate sales has been a poppin' for I think 11 years at this point, relatively early in their journey. What was that journey like? What did it teach you about selling? How things evolved for you over the past decade plus? Jim: Yeah, definitely. it's been, you know, I think early on I always knew I wanted to be in sales, but I didn't know exactly where I was going to end up. I think, gosh, being a pop in 12 years now, it's kind of hard to think back on the original roles that I had prior, but they each kind of taught me something unique. And I think pharmaceuticals, obviously that was kind of crazy, right? mean, long days, you're talking to doctors, right? You got to be pretty buttoned up. And I think I was 23 years old, baby face, right out of college, going into doctor's offices, trying to sell a product to people that are much smarter than me. that have been doing something for a decade, right? So that taught me a lot in the sense of being, you you got to articulate your pitch, you got to be very buttoned up. And I think that taught me a lot of prep work going in. then, you know, after that ended, gosh, I ended up at a small family company, Hampton Forage. You know, I say small, but it was a small company, but we were sold nationally into Costco. And that kind of let me know that I wanted to be in a family run, not necessarily a run, but a smaller environment, I think. I interned at Verizon, that kind of told me, hey, I don't really want to be at, ⁓ you know, necessarily a large corporation. So I left there saying that's where I wanted to be. And again, these were only one year clips at each of these companies. And then finally I ended up ⁓ at Equinox, which was where was selling corporate memberships, you know? And again, that taught me something that I can actually sell, you know, I can sell something that I enjoy and I like. Nothing against cutlery and flatware. That wasn't really my... passion, you could say, right? But selling fitness and health, like, yeah, that's something I'm active, I enjoyed, and, you know, I learned the process there of selling something you truly love. So that's what that taught me. And then, you know, I ended up at Poppin and here I am 12 years later. And that journey is a story of crossing paths in a sense that the chief operating officer at Hampton Forge ended up at Poppin, called me up one day, he became the VP of wholesale at Poppin and said, hey, I have this job for you. Why don't you come in? I know what it was, that it was poppin', saw it was colorful office supplies, I kinda said, ah, I'm not so sure this is gonna be for me, but I respect him and I'm gonna come in and take the interview. And I did and it was so, so much more and I'm so glad that I ended up at poppin' because again, it was gonna be a disruptor, we were building something great and building something in an industry that was kind of been the same more or less for the last century, right? And it's an old world industry, I would say yeah, mean those three first two jobs taught me a little bit of each and what I wanted to do with my career path and then kind of the journey of poppin' has been the moment of most, I mean, couldn't even imagine or fathom how rewarding it would be, you know, at the beginning. So. Warren Kucker: That's awesome, man. That's a really cool journey. Some typical sales hops in there, right? Which is great. You've to your stripes walking into doctor's offices. And you're absolutely right. Talking about things that they give you very little training on in an important setting really prepares you for other areas of sales. so that's really cool. Let's talk about Poppin. What was it like early days for you? What was the sales process like? And really, guess the most important, how has it kind of evolved over the past decade substantially? Jim: Yeah, no, and I think coming into Poppin, was what was the sales process? And this is nothing against how Poppin was structured in the beginning. It was all hands on deck. Like we're talking very much startup environment, growing at a rapid clip. Didn't really have, this was before we had a furniture line, by the way, when I first joined. So that was being created in the background. So we literally just had desktop supplies, call for office supplies, custom swag. Like we did corporate gifting, you know, it was, and the process was, well, Lucky for us, Poppin' was an approachable brand. It was new, so we had a lot of organic growth and inbound. And that was our sales process. Like, hey, you know, my old buddy Matt, he was literally the SGR. He sat on the other side of me. He would get an inbound call. He would talk to him. He would lean over and say, hey, Jim, I got a hot lead, mind if I transfer? And he would just buzz it over to me. I'd pick up. And typically, wasn't even furniture. We're talking desktop supplies. Maybe they wanted 1,000 custom notebooks. You know, so that was literally the, and then who did we call upon? mean, of course, businesses, you know, any and any business that was either visited the website. So B2C was a big driver for us at that point, right? Anyone who came through the websites or products. And that really was a sales process. I mean, we had a CRM, we had NetSuite. So we had some structure, but you know, that was really the early, early on process. Then we got, once we launched furniture, that kind of put us into a new process, right? To be more buttoned up. we started doing more outbound. We were actually categorizing our leads and we had a different stages leads, prospects, only up to a customer. to today, if you fast forward, we literally have, in terms of a sales process, it's like any company you could ever imagine in terms of being A to Z. We've got the lead gen into prospects and the followups. We've got cadences, we've got. conversions, then they come into a customer, then we guide them through the process. We've got project managers, we've got, you know, constant update and outreach and ⁓ everything in between. So, you know, I don't know how else to say it, but it's fully structured. then it so went from no structure to fully structured. And again, that didn't really happen until furniture came along. And then we, you know, started to put it all together. But yeah. Warren Kucker: That's funny. So we've been talking for about a decade and I thought it was the other way around that you were in furniture and then you dabbled in supplies, ⁓ which is humorous that I was under that notion. I know was kind of early, you were kind of like an A at the time. Do you remember what was the decision-making framework? Where it was just like, let's get into office furniture. How did that come about? Obviously, maybe not even really a similar ICP in theory, right? You're going like B to B in that scenario, right? But yeah, what was the framework there? Jim: Now. Sure. Yeah, no, it's a good call. mean, initially, Poppin was thought to be solely a desktop supply company. I mean, that was the idea, right? And really, it was supposed to be B2C. So it was just supposed to be a website that was run in the background, e-commerce. And then when we launched our products, they were vastly different and they disrupted the desktop market because most desktop supplies were gray, black. Right, think about it. There was no color. There was no design and stuff you put on your desk that you truly, to elevate your workspace, right? Whether that was at home or at the office and... That was such a hit that we were like, wait a second, we can kind of create a furniture line that does the same thing, right? That's different, has some color, a little bit more modern, like kind of disrupts the current corporate vibe. And that's kind of how, you know, and then that evolved into even more ad values like stocking in and doing design in-house. That all developed later, but it was kind of just sort of a desktop. yeah, we sold file cabinets. We had a Pink Pond Conference Table. That was one of the first two products we had. So we saw how successful those were. Warren Kucker: Interesting. Yeah. Jim: you know, and selling a ping pong conference table back in the day was like, rang the bell at the front. That was like big, big sale, right? Compared to the desktop. But we saw how popular and successful those differentiated products were. And we're like, wait, we can probably maybe build a full line. And we had some really, really smart engineers and product designers that were already on board doing that. And it was an easy pivot for them to come and get creative with furniture. So it was just starting to evolve. It was being Warren Kucker: Yeah, right. Yeah, right. Yeah. Jim: cooked up in the background when I first joined, but it still hadn't been launched yet. So really it was desktop, custom swag, know, notebooks, anything you could do to set up a company that would be customized. So. Warren Kucker: That's awesome. And so like you in this space, you have like a channel model and like a direct model. How do you kind of manage that sales process for both of those? from the beginning, was it always those two? Did you start with just going to dealers and, did you actually, you started as B2C, you probably started direct. Jim: Yes. Yeah, we did. mean, we started direct and then the dealer and AMD sector started to gain traction, right? And that's where we had to evolve as a company. Because you're right, there is naturally some channel conflict there because we end up doing a lot of the same services that dealers do. you know, most dealers, you know, they have manufacturers, they can't really sell direct, they're going through the dealer and then that that's a harmonious relationship. But initially, you know, so the way you get around channel conflict like that is, I would kind of say radical transparency. Right? Like we pride ourselves on being as transparent as possible. And that means pricing our process, right? With our products and that goes as far as the dealers. So you eliminate the shine of Congo by just being really open and saying, Hey, I'm working this project. So is the dealer. How do we come together and make sure that everyone's protected and working in, you know, as soon as it's that trust level, right? As soon as you like it, it's never be a world where I would go straight to an end client and say, Hey, work with me on, I can get you a better deal. I'm saying, you know, that's ludicrous, right? So I think once the dealer market got comfortable with us and realized that we can work together too, you know, and it's, it's that communication and up the line and again, making sure everyone's protected. within the deal, right? The confines of the deal. Warren Kucker: Yeah, that's awesome. Early days of like just going direct and when you first started the Furniture line, what was that like? How are you getting your first clients? they your existing clients that were kind of buying desktop or did you just go out cold with basically almost a brand new business? Jim: Yes. Well, we were calling cold too. mean, we were, when I say we were calling anybody, anybody, if you were a company in New York in our backyard, you were probably hearing from us. I would say small emerging markets, we weren't going after Fortune 100, Fortune 500. don't see, we did have those clients on the desktop front because they would order swag from us. That was a harder market to penetrate. But most of our clients started as desktop, which is interesting, right? I mean, that's, so imagine we had five, six years of clients that Warren Kucker: Alright. Jim: We sold desktop and corporate branding too. That's a pretty large Rolodex, so to speak. And we tapped into those initially and we converted all, you those were companies that needed furniture and we converted a lot of those. So that's kind of what got us off the ground. And then we had a great marketing team as well. You know, I think we were clever with our marketing. We were fun. We were different. We were funny. Like that doesn't really happen furniture, right? And so those things stood out. And so that again, drove a lot of the organic growth. And that's when we started getting into campaigns and outreach marketing and stuff like that. Warren Kucker: Right. Yeah. Jim: But again, I would say most of our clients were natural conversions from our initial product set. Warren Kucker: Yeah, it's interesting the business model itself to go from great, like B2C desktop supplies. They're stodgy, they're old. I mean, at the time, it was probably just Franklin planners and ⁓ paper in boxes. Like you get in there and then you see a parallel like, hey, this is what the office looks like. It's not just a desktop, it's a furniture office, right? Like it's like a, and then you're running a whole different business model. It's an interesting pivot. Jim: Yeah, I mean, listen, we also had wholesale, don't forget. So we had our products in Staples, Container Store. So if you pick up a pack of pens, you turn it over. We usually had a picture of an office with furniture and we had our website. So our penetration was, you know, were, the brick and mortar is also what drove. People would call us up and be like, hey, I used to buy pens and notebooks from you, but it looks like you do furniture and you can, so, you know, we got it from a lot of different avenues, but yeah. Warren Kucker: All right. Right. Yeah, right. That's funny, yeah. Man, I can't think of another product off the top of my head really quick that would be like that level of like side marketing, right? Where it's like here, like it's pretty funny that I can't imagine anybody would even like equate the fact that they saw this image of your furniture on the back of your notebook, but packaging and like, yeah, like all this as well. This like matches the same vibe of what I like from an office table. That's really, that's really interesting. ⁓ Jim: Yeah. Right. Yeah, and they'll work somewhere a lot of them right at a company or you know, so. Warren Kucker: Did you ever get into a scenario like relatively early where you ended up with a really big client where it became like stressful? Like what was the first time you were like, ⁓ man, like we, we sold something. It's a big deal and we're going to have trouble fulfilling it early on. there this, this point in time for Pop It? Jim: There was. ⁓ And I think I can say this now, Indeed.com, they were a big client of mine. And I'd only sold them custom pen cups, notebooks, stuff like that. I remember I had a big presentation. had to go into the office and I was like, you know, I was pretty nervous. They're like, Indeed's headquarters in New York. I've got my little bin of desktop accessories and I've got some stuff branded with their thing on, you know. And I'm presenting this and I'm showing a slide deck and I think. Warren Kucker: Yeah. All Jim: the slide deck had a page about furniture and they stopped me and they were like, ⁓ so you do furniture as well? I said, yeah, we do. We're starting to get into it a little bit more. And like, ⁓ we'd to see what you could possibly do for us. And that turned into like, I think one of the larger orders at the time for Poppin' is a big deal. was like, we had no one had done like an office fit out. And again, we did a part of their office, but yeah, we got a little nervous because what are the, how do we project manage it? Like, what's the lead time? That was our first foray into like, okay, we. Warren Kucker: You Yeah, right. Yeah. Jim: big leagues, can do office build outs. so, and that just tells you the journey from like penetrating with pens, we're talking custom pens to get you in the door and then converting that into furniture. But yeah, and then it became a very large client of mine over the years and obviously grew from like a thousand, know, a couple hundred employees to like 10,000, something crazy. So. Warren Kucker: Yeah. Right, yeah. Who was in that room will kind of pivot into personas. Like who were you, directors of facilities at the time? Like what was the HR, like people that were looking at like what was the room where someone went from what you were selling initially to like, should we build out our office in this stuff? Jim: Yeah. It was HR. So HR specialists, it's interesting. They would handle a lot of the custom swag stuff, right? Because usually for internal events or new hires, that was a big thing, right? So ⁓ you join Indeed and you get a new hire packet and it's got custom pens and notebooks and all that sort of stuff. So they were in the room and I think they also oversaw a lot of the culture and furniture played into that. ⁓ and even, mean, at the time it was probably just office managers as well. Office managers, HR. Warren Kucker: Yeah, well. Jim: And I don't even know if there were directors of facilities in that meeting, that particular meeting, but they obviously came into the fold eventually. And Deed was very good at having an internal workplace team. So they had workplace experience managers that eventually came on and oversaw a lot of the furniture. So purchasing a bond. Warren Kucker: Yeah, it probably had a really good point. now thinking about it, saying mid 2010s, started to be where the like science behind office design and like the vibe before people use the word, like what became important in like an office setting. So you guys are at the forefront there. How did that shift around with COVID? Obviously it was a pivot business model. How did that work out during that timeframe from a sales perspective? Jim: Yeah, was, I mean, as was COVID for everybody, but it was just a completely unknown and scary time. And I think for us as a business, we had just come off like one of the best months ever, right? mean, 2019, you're right, because that shift mid-2000s and 2019, everybody, I mean, it felt like everybody was trying to refresh, do something new in their office, AI, tech, right? Trying to be more cool and functional within the workplace was just taking off and COVID completely Warren Kucker: Right. Yeah. Jim: that, you know, the hardest stop down, shop, right? And we're like, wait a sec, where did our entire business go? And, you know, we were able to pivot to work from home, you know, work from home programs where we're selling our furniture to employees that were now remote. So we were selling acrylic paneling for desks or, you know, germ spread and stuff like that. So we pivoted a lot of different ways, but it was a dark time because I think Warren Kucker: down. Yeah. Jim: no one was really investing in offices, no one was in offices, right? I mean, that's, and then coming out of COVID was more of the same, it very tentative, right? It was like, what's hybrid? I don't really want to make an investment in returning it. I don't know if employees are going to want to come back. We're downsizing, maybe breaking our lease to evolving to kind of now where I think we're back in the sense that COVID has now created a thing where everyone, how do we get people back to the office? And that is a compelling factor. Warren Kucker: Yeah. Okay. Jim: And it can't just be the same old, we want you to come back, but our office hasn't changed. We've actually made it smaller and it's not gonna be very functional for you. And the whole point of workplace experience is you're trying to bridge the gap from home to the office, right? You want it to feel comfortable, cozy. That's where people, not to that extreme, but that's where people feel most productive in an environment that they're comfortable in, right? And so you're bridging that gap in a sense. And that became very important as the return to office. And it's still happening as we speak. You know what I mean? Warren Kucker: All Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. Jim: but things are ramping up for sure. we're, we're, Poppin is reaping the benefits of a lot of that refresh. And we're being creative partners and, you know, consultative partners to our clients and not just, yeah, put a lot of great furniture that's beautiful and colorful into your space, but how do we, how do we make it functional? How do we match your, different departments and your team and what your actual hybrid goal is? Is it three days? Is it two days? Like, what do you actually need from a furniture standpoint? So yeah. Warren Kucker: Right. Yeah, it's actually like a pretty funny shift in trends pretty quickly. Like one, it's hard to remember a time where like, ⁓ before just being facilities and it's like, how many people can I get in the office? is what you're looking at, right? Like that's the setup, right? Then again, 2010 became a little bit more about do I want to come into this office? What do I, how do you make it a place where people enjoy coming a second home and I do productive work? And that science came into it where like, really like HR starts to get involved as like a people problem, the office. Then COVID shuts it down, you work from home, like it's a completely different perspective. Now everyone's optimizing their home space to try to be spend all day there in a particular space. Jim: Right. Warren Kucker: And then like, what do you come out of? I didn't think about the fact that now you're probably, are trying to get people back in the office several days a week, but just two challenges. One, you're right, I didn't think about this. You're trying to get people back in the office. So you want to make it pleasant. And two, also do you, how do you optimize for the fact that people are in three days a week instead of five? Like how are you, how do you manage that flow? So that all like puts pop in it, like a weird kind of like sway in a market, a 15 year span where three distinct things happened and this space is kind of interesting. Jim: Yeah, I mean, listen, you gotta imagine the selling approach changed from pre-COVID to post-COVID, right? You got much more, you got much savvier clients who are reading and figuring out, I can't just do what I was doing before. you know, so again, that's, that's had to become a lot more granular and that's good because Poppin was already ready for that. And that's what we kind of already been doing throughout our process. You know, nothing really changed for us. We just had to get more specific with our clients and understand, you know, more about what their return to office looked like. But. Warren Kucker: Yeah, right. Yeah. Jim: What I will say is you imagine an employee that was having issues in an open desk area with no places to meet, that's a big concern. They're not really compelled to go back to that same environment, right? And that's where you might say, okay, well guess what? We've added four pop-in pods where you can go and make private calls. We've made your desk a little bit bigger with privacy panels and to make it more comfortable. Those sort of things, employees are like, ⁓ cool, right? They're listening and they're making it more attractive to come back, so yeah. Warren Kucker: Awesome, man. Cool, cool, cool. Well, let's dive into a second piece here, a little bit more in this space. So not just from a sales perspective, once you close deals, you're managing customers, it's an ongoing relationship, you're also involved in like the product management, the installation side of things, at least from a PM standpoint, how do you balance like your sales role and I'll say this like semi-operational role on a day-to-day basis? Jim: Yeah. Yeah, you know, ⁓ that's a great question because I think naturally in sales, people want to be close to the deal always, right? Because they're their clients. And you got to remember, we might do 90 % of the work in terms of cultivating that client, getting them to a close, a great place where they've purchased all the furniture that they want. But then what does the client remember is the final 10%, right? Like, it's the final mile that really is what counts in the end, because that's the last thing that they're going to remember that you delivered on what you promised and what you've been promising for this. 90 % of the journey and that innately says, well, I want to be really close and, you know, hover over the process, but you really, that's something that you have to obviously separate yourself from because those aren't really revenue generating activities. And that's not really what you should be doing at the end of the day. And so I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, but I think we've got such a great project management team and we're such a small nimble team that we over communicate. But I think what really changed the game is with the visibility aspect internally in our systems, right? So. We've kind of got this thing where you can see when a deal closes, where it is at every single stage. So I can look in the system and see exactly where my deal is and how my project manager has progressed it. And I really have to reach out to them in a cozy spot. And I'm seeing all the email communication that I'm still copied on. So it's more of like a visibility and understanding that an actionable thing where I'm taking up my time getting involved in it. So yeah, again, I would say having that internal visibility and that timeline track. Warren Kucker: Thank Jim: all the information that's going on in the background. Because before it was just kind of living with our project managers and then that's us following up with them. That's the manual aspect, right? But having it actually in a, you know, where everyone can kind of see it and know exactly where the deal is at. But yeah, it's hard. mean, I I still stay close to my deals, you know, but yeah, so. Warren Kucker: right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, plus it's like, It's easy to get sucked into non-selling activities, right? Sales is hard, making sure your projects that you just sold don't have to rails. A little bit easier to kind of spend your time on. And there's actually like more roles like this in sales than I really realized, right? Especially in this space, construction, interior design, these types of things. You end up with this hybrid kind of like PM sales role. Seems like you guys are striking the right balance. You want to make sure it's delivered. You want to make sure your customer's happy, but like you're not saddled with a day to day that keeps you Jim: Correct. Warren Kucker: adding the value you shared in the sales process in that way. Jim: Yeah, no, exactly. I mean, it's a delicate balance, right? Like the the initially the person, you know, a client is who they dealt with us, right? In the beginning, that's who they trust. So it's also beneficial to have us and know that we're along for the journey and that we're there if they need us. But that also our project manager is great. They're on top of everything. And, you know, so but yeah, hybrid role for sure. But yeah. Warren Kucker: Yeah. Cool. Well, that's great. Well, maybe another tact here. you launched the Miami market. I know you're a national brand, but you launched that market. What was that like? What did it take to open a new territory? Was there something specific that was like a big change in your day to day when you launched that market? What was that process like? Jim: Yeah, definitely. So I launched LA first and that was a huge learning curve because correct. And then down to Miami. So, you know, New York was a little bit, I don't want to say it wasn't cushy because that's where HQ was. We didn't have any other locations. New York City was our backyard from a branding perspective. So a lot of people knew who we were and had heard of us. And we did some fair amount of marketing and advertising in New York. you know, a lot of that was organic. But then going to LA, Warren Kucker: Gotcha. From New York, you went New York to LA? you, yeah. Yeah. Jim: I don't know the landscape. We've sold some projects there. We have some revenue in that market, but there's really not much, right? And all of sudden you pop up a showroom, right? So we had a physical presence there. We launched the market and there was a huge launch party and then everyone leaves and it was just me. so, no, I say just me, but that's not like I didn't have support from... It fell on me and I'm sitting there, it dawned on me. And I had a great marketing team and I had great support. so going back to your initial question of what does it take to drive a market? Warren Kucker: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, agreed, but it fell on you, Jim: is borderline guerrilla marketing because people don't know you and it's getting boots on the ground and networking and also leveraging your physical presence. But leveraging your physical presence and more of a way of just, I have a showroom, bring clients to show them products. We were hosting events weekly and I'm talking all themed, right? Or there was a certain demographic or channel we were going after, right? So there were dealer centric events, there were inclined only events, there were A &D design that all had a speaker. We usually had panels. to draw people in and then we would all the 80s would be in there. So that drove a ton of success because in LA people love events. was just like they were, and Poppin was the new person in town who was this. We benefited a lot from that, that's, know, starting a new market and if you're in it, you gotta be on the ground. And I was going, you know, it's events, it's BizNow, it's networking. Who are the mover and shakers of LA, right? In terms of. Warren Kucker: Right. Right, yeah. Jim: The A &D community, right? Who are the big drivers? What do they do? Can I meet with them? Can I learn more about their process? Who are the dealers in LA that drive a lot of the business and that sort of thing? ⁓ but yeah, tons of tons of networking. And again, if you've got a physical office and a presence and you're selling a physical product, leverage that, because our showroom was, it was a beautiful space and we had a ton of great product in there and we put a lot of innovative stuff in there that we were launching and there was newness. So, yeah. Warren Kucker: Gotcha. Yeah, right. Awesome. You were the, I can tell you, new kids on the block. there, has there been a time in the past like five, six, seven years in either like LA or Miami where someone came in to like the market that was new and like you weren't the new kids on the block anymore. And you're like, ⁓ man, like who are these, who are these guys? Like you became kind of the, like you moved up, got like closer to being the old guard and there was somebody else doing the same kind of guerrilla marketing that came in. And you're like, ⁓ man, I can't believe we're at this stage in our life cycle. Jim: That's, You know, it's interesting. I just feel like Poppin was such a unique company. We still were kind of the only player in our line of work and what we did. There's two or three other players now that kind of do what we do, but we were still kind of the only ones. And I feel like you got to imagine a lot of the furniture deals in those markets are driven by dealers and A &D. And so when people search like, How do I design an office? Usually design firm comes up, right? They're going through those channels and they don't really require marketing. Whereas like, people don't know who Poppin is. We have this model that's strange, not strange, but it's unique and it's not what the industry is. So we've got to get that voice out there and say, hey, this is what Poppin does. This is why we're different. And frankly, I mean, there was no other company like Poppin that ever was in LA in my time. So we benefited greatly from that. It wasn't like, you know, Veri, who you've probably seen with the Veri desk, right? They've got. Warren Kucker: Interesting, Jim: That's how they started. They never really entered the market while we were there, right? And they would have been considered a competitor. They probably would have been on the streets and doing the same thing that I was doing, right? So I think just benefited from being the only one out there in that sense. And again, it was easy to speak to people about popping because we were different and very approachable. So it made the process a lot easier. Yeah. Warren Kucker: Gotcha. Right. Yeah, that's awesome. That's cool. Excellent. Let's maybe just pivot a little bit more. So let's talk about AI. I was here in a very physical space. What are the trends you're seeing in your space in relation to AI? Obviously, is there anything in the physical space that people talk about when you're doing a sale? And or is there like a shift in how people view what the office environment will be like and so that's changed the sale with like what's how's that become a part of day-to-day or not at all because it's completely unrelated Jim: No, I think it is unique selling a physical product and where does AI fit into all of that? I will say there is technology that is currently available. I think a lot of the larger firms probably use, but it's an AI technology that you don't know who the exact employee is, but it tracks the movement of the employees within the space. And it can track the utilization of which furniture and which arrangements and configurations that they utilize the most. Warren Kucker: out. Jim: you can actually optimize the AI what you're, not only what you're ordering and what type of furniture, but how you're configuring it and actually where it's located in the physical space. So that is becoming a new tool. And because normally what you would do is what's cool about Poppins Furnace is very modular, it's reconfigurable. So we can sell something to a client and if it's not really working out, we kind of we test it and then we reconfigure it and we can move it and we can kind of do it on the fly where this kind of gets down to a science and gets some really data backed. reasoning behind certain floor plan designs and what we're selling to clients. So that's been unique. And I know Google used it in their Spruce Goose, which is their office over in Playa Vista. That was a big thing. there was like 100 vendors that were involved in that. But there are some companies now that are working with more smaller to mid-size. making it more manageable. so anyway, that's how I've kind of seen AI be beneficial. I think it's great. And I think that's why not do that before. you know, being certain of a way that, you know, people are utilizing the furniture. So anyway, I think, yeah, I think that's a cool technology. think that, and I do, I am seeing a little bit in the design aspect too, which again, you know, and like AI in terms of designing a space, right? So design software that can then just design it out without actually having a human do it, which I still think is where I get a little bit torn on AI and messing around with physical, like that should be a personal process, right? And something that you should do. Warren Kucker: Well, that's interesting. Right. Jim: and talk to the client. Furniture is a touch, feel, enjoy physical product. You sit on it, like you said. It's something that you actually interact with, not technology or an AI. I've seen that, but I'm not sure that really fits. And of course, as you know, outreach. Well, how can we better narrow our target market? Because furniture is very specific, you've got to catch somebody at an exact point in time where they're either moving offices, they need a refresh, or there's a need. Warren Kucker: Perfect. rank. Right, right. All Yeah. Jim: That's difficult. mean, you can't just cast a wide net because so many people already have furniture. It's just a waste of time, right? So you got to use AI. And AI has been a great tool to kind of narrow down on our who's moving, whose leases are up soon, who should we be reaching out to and when. And then, you know, procuring, you know, kind of narrowing down our messaging and just what companies and what industries are growing, right? Using that data and reaching out to those. So I think that's been immensely beneficial in just growing the pipeline and Warren Kucker: Yes. Jim: and in Legion in general. Warren Kucker: That's interesting. I'd say tracking software they're talking about, is that more of something that a facilities team would deploy and then you're leveraging the data when you're talking about it? Or is there something specific that Poppin may deploy prior to a build out or something? Jim: No, would be something that we would, a firm that we would partner with that actually has the proprietary software. And then they, it's usually done by device or the computer, right? So there's a little bit of privacy laws with that, but obviously, you know, the software would be embedded. So wherever you go with your computer or your phone or whatever, if you're logged into your email, that's how they kind of track where you are. And they don't know who you are, who it is, but they can tell people are moving within the space, how long you sit somewhere, who's using what, right? Warren Kucker: Okay, gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's Who's using what? All right. Yeah. Jim: I see it a lot in film blitz and pods, which you don't need software for. It's actually a sensor you can put underneath the top inside the pod and it can tell when someone's in there, how long they're in there and then when they get out. So that tracks utilization. So there actually are physical sensors too. So it can be either embedded in the technology or it can be physical, which is a little bit more of an economical route and easier for small to medium sized companies to kind of manage. So it's not really AI, but it is that physical part. You attach a sensor, but still technology. Warren Kucker: Okay. Okay. Right. Yeah. When you're pitching that as part of the process, what's the ROI for the people that better usage of what you're purchasing or better employee engagement or what's the end result for your potential customers that you're like, use this software and then we build our furnitures, we do some tweaking over a couple of months or years and optimize the space. Why are they doing that? What do they get out of that? Jim: Yeah, I think the way to do it, and if you can, is when you can, they haven't moved yet, they have furniture, it's maybe older. We would preferably like to see how they're utilizing that to get a sense, right? Because it's a little bit, otherwise you're going in cold, we're still selling them a new solution or floor design that we don't know how it's going to work, and then we got to kind of do it after the fact. If we can get proactive with it, yeah, there's a lot of benefits in saying, well, how are people utilizing your space now? ⁓ it turns out no one's using this. Warren Kucker: Right. Jim: It's actually people are meeting in the cafe high tables because they like that, you know, that atmosphere over lounge, right? So you can get points of data on an existing space before they move. And that's kind of where you want to catch them and get the most data collection. But then you can do it post. But what it does is that's the towel of how much people are enjoying the space and you're offering them what they actually need to do their job and collaborate. Right. So the benefit is happy employees and productive and productivity, obviously. Right. So. Warren Kucker: All right. Jim: People are most productive when they're in spaces, like I said before, they're comfortable in, but also, know, they're creatures of habit, everyone is, right? So where do they wanna work and how do they wanna work? Yeah. Warren Kucker: Awesome, man. It's really interesting, again, it's stuff that I think most would take for granted, right? I'm going back to kind of like my Apple days where I'm sure it was like... Jim: Sure. Warren Kucker: Apple has done really well. Every building was different. Every every space was different. I can just even think about like spaces that were like wholly unused and it either it was in the wrong spot or there wasn't a privacy for what you were trying to do or just like the couch was uncomfortable. The back was too far from the front. Right. So it's just like and then we probably complain that there wasn't enough booth space because we're all in cubes and that may or may not have been true. Right. Like it could have been true. But if I create what you see it's 25 percent utilized. There's never a time in the day where 75 percent of the booths are taken up. Well then I don't have to purchase more boot space. That's just that we have to figure out the problem, right? Something interesting there. Yeah. Jim: Yeah, and to your point, cost savings, right? Don't spend the money on things. It's right that maybe you don't need or they're not, people aren't going to utilize. So, I mean, that's huge benefit in predictability for clients and knowing what they're purchasing and feeling confident in it. Cause you know, going in post COVID, was kind of like, well, I don't know what, here's my hybrid model, but this all sounds great. In theory, this is a great design. You listened to everything I've said, but we don't know for sure until people are actually back in the space. And so, okay, that's great. And then how do we track it from there? It's more of like anecdotal, hey, Warren Kucker: Right. Jim: How are you feeling by bright versus data? So, yeah, yeah. Yep. Warren Kucker: Right. Awesome. Cool. Maybe last question. I'd say, ⁓ how do you see some trend shifting in this space over the next couple of years? ⁓ Does AI change anything in this furniture space at all? Do you think your sales process will be fundamentally different a few years from now, or how we're interacting at the office? What might shift in the next few years? Jim: That's a great question. That's the beautiful thing. We don't know. I mean, I think we're in a little bit of a cycle where we pre-COVID, then COVID, then post-COVID, right? And then everyone's kind of rushing to get everyone back to the office. And then I think things are going to ultimately change again in the next few years when everyone is back into the office. And then we've got to kind of follow as a furniture company, like, is the hybrid model here to stay? that over? Is that 70 % of the companies or is everyone going back five days a week? Because what I honestly think is it's still in test phase. And I still think companies are still feeling out what is working best for them. And it's happening in real time now. And it's been happening for the last few years. And I think we need to track that. And if it goes back to everyone's back in the office five days a week, do we know if that's going to happen? That's going to change things. And I we'll get back to something close to that. I don't know if we'll ever go back five days a week. I think it's just super hard for companies. I know the Googles of the world, Microsoft, Boeing, they can make those calls and Amazon, right? You got to come back. But for our large target market, I think we'll say it's going to be hybrid, but we just have to be ready to adapt. And I think in a couple of years, we're going to see people coming back to pop in and saying, Hey, our idea of what we thought was the best return office has changed. And we're going to be back to the drawing board a little bit and saying, okay, well now they need some more desks. We need to pare down on the lounge area. don't over, you know, who knows? But that's the fun part about. our industry is always evolving and know, don't want to, Cocoa was not a great event, but events like that impact and we have to adapt, you know, and we kind of sort of did. So, ⁓ can't say where we'll be, you know, well, I think Poppin is poised to be ready because we're so flexible and nimble and I think a lot of the French companies will ultimately follow suit, right? So, yeah. Warren Kucker: No, it's weird to think because, I mean, 10 years ago there was no notion of work from home. So I think I had to work from home for a doctor's appointment in 2014 and I had to ask my boss and that was the one day I worked from home and I swear I didn't get anything done. I wasn't set up to work for a full day from home. And then it became the norm and now we're switching back to a new norm, which ideally is probably three or four days a week, but that just leaves a lot of things to figure out. If you're in an office on a Friday, then no one's there. Like what was the point of being in the office? If everyone's in the office the same three days, you're really, now we're taking assets that we were using five days a week and using them three days a week. Like how do we manage that space in an appropriate way? It opens up a whole series of questions that actually kind of makes it more valuable to look at optimization, utilization, and also just like overall productivity environment. Like are people enjoying their space there when they got a taste of not going in anymore? Jim: 100%. I mean, I think back to Poppin, are you kidding? Working from home remote? That was not an option. know, and that was, you know how it was, like you had to be back and, you know, we were there all day, five days a week. It wasn't like, hey, you know, I'm gonna work home on a Friday because, you know, no, you're either sick or you're in the office. Right. You know, we come from the days beyond. Warren Kucker: Yeah. You're right. Yeah. Yeah, no, you have to work. Yeah, right. Yeah. doesn't seem so far in at this point, right? Now it's a complete discussion point. Every job interview, it's like, it an office? Is it hybrid? Is it remote? Like, it's a whole, it's a major part of the job decision now that was just completely off the table right in 2017. It didn't exist. Jim: Right. No, I know. So there you go. Massive, change in a span of, you know. Warren Kucker: Yeah, I'm sure you were in 2019 you were predicting a major pandemic that would completely shift the paradigm of work from home versus commercial. You were on a podcast back then you were calling it. So great, Jim. Well, listen, I really appreciate being on the podcast. Really interesting kind of backstory, the evolution of like, again, a new company in like an old space that honestly is still the new company in old space. It seems like a new entry in every 30 years. So another 20 years until the new kid on the block comes along and drops a pop in, I'm sure. Appreciate you being on the show. Jim: No, I know. 100 Cent. That's for sure. Well, thanks a lot, Warren. Appreciate it, as always. Yep, bye. Warren Kucker: Excellent. Take care.