Latest / The Pausecast / Ep. 92: Pausing with Dr. Richard J. Davidson

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Ep. 92: Pausing with Dr. Richard J. Davidson · The Pausecast

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Hi, I'm Rachel O'Meara. Author of pause, harnessing the
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life changing power of giving yourself a break.
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I'm excited that you're here today and joining me on the paws
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cast where I interview thought leaders in the world of raising
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our Consciousness, emotional intelligence and helping us
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really reach our potential for more information, you can go to
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my website, Rachel, O'Meara.com, and download my free guide book.
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How to turn earn out into thriving.
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At work. Welcome everyone, and thank you
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for joining today. The podcast, I'm your host,
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Rachel O'Meara and today I am so honored to have dr.
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Richie Davidson joining us today from the University of Medicine
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of what of Wisconsin-Madison and the founder, and director of the
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center for healthy Minds. Hi dr.
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Richard Davidson, how are you today?
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I'm good. Rachel, thank you so much for
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having me. Yeah, thank you so much for
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being with us today and if you are not familiar with Richie's
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work, let me read a little bit of updates and background so
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that you can just have a little context here and what we're
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going to get into today and in the neuroscience and fascinating
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studies, and work that dr. Davis to is in the TU and I met
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a couple years ago when you came to Google for your altered
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traits talk. So it's been great to talk to
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you now. Dr. Davidson in is best known
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for his groundbreaking work studying emotion and the Brain.
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You've also been a fan and Confidant and friend of Dali
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Lama and I know he's influenced your work a lot.
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You also were the founder, like I mentioned for the center of
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healthy Minds, I want to, I want to get into that as well.
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I know you're working on a lot of good stuff there regarding
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well-being and how the brain is affected with things, like being
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more, attentive with attention training.
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Mindfulness can definitely talk more about that and super
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excited to learn more about that.
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And you've been on Kuwait International stages, like the
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world economic forum and you serve on the global Council of
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mental health. Not even I didn't know this.
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The hundred most influential people in the world in 2006 by
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Time. Magazine is pretty pretty
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incredible. So I mentioned also trait,
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that's your most recent work. I know you co-author that with
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dr. Dan goleman And what I wanted to
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invite you to do is to kick us off on a guided pause and
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whatever way that works for you certainly happy to do that for
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this guided pause for listeners. Please find a comfortable
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upright position. Where you can be grounded.
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Feel your feet on the floor. Ideally And rest with upright
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spine, not too loose, not too tight.
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And gently close your eyes. And simply bring awareness.
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Into your body. Notice.
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Whatever may be arising whether it's Pleasant or unpleasant, or
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neutral. And spend a few moments.
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Recognizing that when we engage in these kinds of practices.
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We can see that they're beneficial.
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Not only for ourselves. but for all the other people that we
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connect with both directly and indirectly, and so, in a very
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real sense, engaging in practices to calm our mind and
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open our heart. Are acts of generosity.
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Or all of those, We Touch. Let's spend a few moments now
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bringing into our mind and our heart one, or two people that
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are important to us in our daily life, it may be our spouse, it
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may be our children, it may be our coworkers.
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It may be a caregiver. Whoever it might be.
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But bring into our mind and our heart, someone who has been
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helpful and beneficial. And spend a few moments simply
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recognizing. And appreciating.
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All that they have done for us. And recognizing that our lives.
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Are so entwined and interconnected with those of
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others. And simply.
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Allowing this. Sense of appreciation.
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To emerge in recognition. Of all that these others
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contribute. To our life and to our
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well-being. And sending.
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Wishes. Of happiness and well-being.
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Do these people in return. As a way of expressing our
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appreciation. And we can use a simple phrase
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like me. You enjoy happiness.
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In the causes of Happiness, may you be free of suffering and the
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causes of suffering. And then we can simply rest.
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And notice whatever. Sensations feelings, thoughts.
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May have arisen. And we can open our eyes now.
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And come back to the podcast. So, thank you for this
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opportunity. Thank you.
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Thank you so much for guiding Us in that and I know I feel very
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different as a result and that link you mentioned between
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others. And I'm stealing the weaving.
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And between I think that's something you.
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I know I tap into when I when I can have a moment like that and
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really focused. So thank you.
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I was really, really nervous. I'll call it.
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Yeah and and so I know with your work, I am be a neuroscientist.
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I think the most, what I'm most interested in today I think is
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is really learning more about knowing the Neuroscience of
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what's really going on behind the scenes when we are attention
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training like that in a practice.
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And I know that's been a lot of focus of your work.
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We're really studying. Brain and understanding those
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differences that can be that can be seen on a, for example, an
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MRI scan right? Where there are changes in what
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you see. And can you just share a little
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bit about what it, what it is that you are doing in that field
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because it's so new. There's not a lot of experts in
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it. I don't think at the moment.
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I know it's growing we can begin with kind of the remarkable fact
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that when we Engage in these very simple practices like we
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just did to nurture our mind and cultivate these positive
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qualities, our brains change, they change both functionally as
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well as remarkably structurally to and this is something that's
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now been observed many many times the detail.
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Al's, in many ways, we're still being worked out, but here are a
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few of the things that we've discovered first.
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What we've discovered is that different kinds of meditation
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practices like this have different effects on the brain.
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This is really not very surprising.
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But, you know, it may be of interest to some to, to hear
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this scientifically validated. And so, we know, for example,
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All that simple mindfulness, practices differ from practices
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that are explicitly designed to cultivate kindness and
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compassion, even though they share some similarities, they
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also produce some differences in the brain.
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So that's one important element. The second element that's
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important is that the extent to which changes are observed in
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many cases, in many studies Dee's seems to be associated
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with the length of practice the extent to which a person is
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practicing. And again, that's not so
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surprising, but it's of Interest I think to see it empirically
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confirmed. And so from this kind of
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evidence we can that practice seems to matter.
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And in most cases, the more practice you do, the greater the
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magnitude of impact that we see in the brain now with regard to
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practices that specifically nurture, kindness compassion,
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one of the things that we see is that there are circuits in the
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brain that we know are important for perspective-taking for em.
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See and for positive emotion, all of which are strengthened by
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these practices, and research shows that it actually doesn't
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take that much training to begin to see an objective change in
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the brain. Whether those changes in the
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brain indoor or not, is of course of go interest.
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And you tend to see more enduring changes with more
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consistent practice. And so while it is possible to
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see a change in the brain with very short-term practice it is
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and we've published data showing that a cumulative total of seven
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hours of practice over the course of two weeks is
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sufficient to produce a A measurable functional change in
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the brain, having seen that and said that we also know that in
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order for those changes to endure in order for those
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changes to become the new Baseline.
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So to speak in, order for there to be a true altered trait, more
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practice is required, Gotcha. So, so you said seven hours
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within two weeks that right? Yes.
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It's a change. 30 minutes a day for two weeks, 30 minutes, a
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day. And then.
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So what is what is it that you see is a result, like,
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physically in the world knowing my brain is, may be shifted a
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little bit. What are the results I would be
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expecting or could potentially benefit from?
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Can you give a couple examples? Sure.
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Sure. So we've looked at this
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behaviorally as well and people tend to be more altruistic, more
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willing to share they report higher levels of well-being.
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They show less implicit bias, meaning that their in-group so
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to speak becomes larger and more inclusive.
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Civ. Those are some of the benefits
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that have been scientifically established.
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I love knowing what I could expect and I know.
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Well, I'm curious, what is your personal practice as a someone
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who studies as can you walk us through what you do and and
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what, and how long you are, just an average on a difficult day
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and I'd love to see what that looks like to.
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I've been at this for a long time.
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I've been back here on the far end of the Continuum, Mary
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practicing for more than 40 years.
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My first Meditation Retreat was in 1974 and so I've been
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practicing pretty much ever since.
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And, you know, I practice every day and my typical practice on a
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typical work day is I would say around 45, Minutes and I do a
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number of different kinds of practices that come from, the
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Tibetan Buddhist tradition that includes awareness practices,
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compassion practices and other similar kinds of things similar
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to what we did. I think in the beginning of our
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podcast. So those are great as examples
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and I like the idea of having a yeah, like, having you share,
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what you do? It's possible.
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We can all get there if you really wanted to practice with
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him, if you're starting right now, I would say and woman,
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knowing, we're on that. Yeah.
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Yeah. One of the things that I often
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say is that when human beings first evolved on this planet,
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none of us were brushing our teeth and yet virtually, every
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human being on the planet brushes their teeth now.
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And this is a learned behavior, it's not part of our genome and
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we do this because we recognize that it is important for our
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personal physical hygiene. We believe that our minds may
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even be more important than our teeth.
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And if we nurtured our model for even as short a time as we brush
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our teeth every day, my conviction is that this world
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would be a very different place. Yeah.
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Yeah, I like that is that's a great analogy in terms of the
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teeth care and actually I know in my book caused there's a I
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call it mental flossing. So it's funny.
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You say that because it is I feel like it's like you're
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getting any clues of the skunk, you know, you're getting
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conscious and learning more about what's happening for you
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and that and that awareness level another question I had.
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So let's see if I weren't a know like maybe I just don't like to
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meditate and I've tried it. Challenging.
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And there's so many I know I've been in that space myself.
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Before I really just sat down and tried it, but are there
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other ways to cultivate those? If I don't have a meditation
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practice, let's say, I want to just be really.
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I'm committed and dedicated towards changing my brain but
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maybe that's just not for me. In terms of a sitting practice,
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what would you recommend or are there things to do?
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That can connect, can keep us in that forward, momentum and in
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terms of changing their brains in the same way.
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What do you think that's really great?
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Important question, Rachel deeply pondering over the last
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several years. One of the things that we
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believe is possible is that one can engage in these practices
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while you are engaged in other activities of daily living that
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donut that are not sitting. So you don't have to do these as
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formal practices, you can do this.
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While you're commuting while you're, you know, on on a bus,
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you can do this. As you're walking, you can do
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this. When you're doing physical
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exercise, you can do this. When you are washing dishes,
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cleaning your house standing in a line.
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There are so many opportunities in everyday life during which we
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are not engaged in cognitively demanding.
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Other activities, where we can practice this sort of thing.
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And so we I don't know. From a hard-nosed scientific
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perspective at this point in time, the extent to, which these
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active practices May produce the same benefit as more formal
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meditation practices. But from everything we've been
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able to glean so far. I think that these active
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practices can really be very, very beneficial.
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And so we actually have developed a, we have an
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initiative in our Centre called the healthy Minds initiative
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that in part involves the development of an app to teach
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people. Some of the practices in four of
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the major pillars of well-being. And we allow people in who use
19:28
this app to engage with it in many different ways and it's
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possible to do all this training without Were meditating for even
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one minute? That's exciting.
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It's possible to do this as you're engaged in other
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activities of daily living and so we strongly believe it's
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possible. And we have the aspiration to
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collect scientific data on it as we roll This Out knowing that
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tell us a little bit more about the app, how could I get it or
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help our listeners? Learn more because I don't know
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if you're wanting it yet, but where are you with that?
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Well, before I talk about the app, I need to say very briefly
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a little bit about the four pillars or constituents of
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well-being, which is the question.
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Yeah, go ahead from which this is.
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This is built. So the four pillars of
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well-being or these, the first is awareness and that would
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include mindfulness also includes the central component.
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We call Meta awareness, which is knowing what your mind is doing
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the faculty of monitoring. The second pillar is connection
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and connection refers to those qualities that nurture positive
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social relationships, qualities like appreciation, and kindness.
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Having a positive outlook. The third pillar, we call
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Insight and this is about self-knowledge, it's inside.
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Right into The Narrative of ourselves.
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We all have this narrative that we carry around and in the in
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one extreme, one extreme end. There are people who have a very
21:22
negative self narrative, who have a lot of negative,
21:26
self-beliefs, and who actually hold these beliefs to be a true
21:31
description of who they are. And, of course, that is a
21:34
prescription. For depression.
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And so part of human, flourishing is having a healthy
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relationship to this narrative and really understanding it for
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what it is at a deep experiential level.
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And what it is is a constellation of thoughts.
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And then finally, the last pillar well-being was purpose
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and here, research has established that having a true
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north, That extends beyond the self and involves others or or
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other objects is really something critical for
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wellbeing. And one of the key elements here
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is how our everyday behavior is aligned with our sense of
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purpose. So to what extent is more and
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more of our daily Activities part of our sense of purpose.
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Can you find the place in yourself?
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Where even something as seemingly menial as taking out
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the garbage is part of who you are?
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It's part of your sense of purpose.
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Yeah. Well and so those are the four
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pillars of well-being. There are there's a lot of
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scientific evidence around each pillar and there are specific
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practices. Has, which can be done either as
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formal meditation practices or as active practices while you're
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out and about in the world to nurture these pillars.
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And so our app is based upon this framework and it includes
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scientific information about each of these four components.
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It also includes specific practices to nurture each of
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these components, the more Formation about.
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It can be gleaned from our website and listeners can go to
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our Center for healthy Minds, where information about this can
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be found. We are not Distributing the app
23:56
to the general public at this point in time.
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The app is being distributed to organizations.
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And we initially created A version for the workplace
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setting but we are creating versions for different sectors
24:10
in age groups. And we will be disseminating
24:16
this sort of in a step step by step fashion.
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I should say that when we typically do disseminate it,
24:25
it's accompanied by some in-person component to.
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There's some in-person touch points which we think are going
24:33
to be important. But this is sort of the core of
24:37
it. I am excited to have it at some
24:42
point learning. Like in my hand said to see it
24:44
because I know I've been hearing about it for a while now, and I
24:47
think what your corporate team with these four pillars is so
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important. And I know well-being is such a,
24:53
it's a term that I think means so many different things to so
24:56
many different people. Some people think it's maybe a
24:59
more happiness angle, but the way that you're incorporating a
25:03
spectrum including Honest Connection in sight and I think
25:07
really importantly purpose where it's living purposefully,
25:10
whether you're taking out the trash and like, knowing this is
25:14
serving you, I've learned a lot about that recently and it's
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just so powerful. So, thank you for the work that
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you're doing and just putting that into a digital capacity.
25:24
And then, like you said this, imagine that the human component
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of it is important as well as much as the others but to have
25:31
that Dean harnessed in a way that's capturing the data.
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My guess is, that's, that's pretty profound and in terms of
25:38
what it can mean and what we can synthesize from it.
25:41
So I'm excited to continue to learn more and I'll put in the
25:44
show notes and links to your site and how to get more
25:48
information and think. Great.
25:50
For sure. Your definition is well-being.
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Those four things that you mentioned in that are also in
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this in this at that you're building.
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Well-being is our, these four components and it's not Really
26:05
happiness. You know, I've seen without mama
26:08
cry in response to a tragic event and he was deeply sad yet.
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He maintains very high levels of well-being.
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So the idea that well-being is equated with happiness, I think
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is is not right? It's and I think there are many
26:29
good examples of of times when we're not happy, but we still
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You can have high levels of well-being.
26:38
Yeah, I 100% agree and you mentioned flourishing which I
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think is really more of the heart of living the good life
26:45
and an extraordinary life, and I feel like that's what we're
26:48
really govern for, right? We were when we're wanting to
26:52
feel purposeful and and have that well-being and and I think
26:57
I speak for myself. I know to me happiness was
27:01
really just like waiting it in in my prior years.
27:04
So it's really morning about being aware to the Things that
27:07
we all think of Happiness, getting the house and the
27:10
relationship we want. And all these real external
27:13
things and, and to your point, I think the well being really is
27:17
much deeper and it had been. And what I like to think about
27:21
is like, happiness is the byproduct of that, right?
27:23
Like, it happens when the other things happened and it's there
27:26
as well as, as well as the aliveness.
27:29
That can be cultivated like you saw with the Dalai Lama crying
27:32
and tap into yourself, so you can really Thrive and live
27:36
purposefully Yeah, that's beautiful.
27:40
In terms of what you're what you're working on.
27:42
What do you do for your own transformation?
27:47
What can you tell us? A little bit about other things
27:52
or whatever, little modest increments in my own Evolution
28:03
and flourishing to my my meditation practice.
28:07
Practice, largely and I in addition to my daily practice, I
28:14
typically do about a month of retreat every year it's divided
28:20
into a couple of segments but I do at least one month of much
28:28
more intensive Retreat, physical exercise on a regular basis
28:33
which I think is helpful and important.
28:37
And so Those are the key elements for me, good to hear
28:42
what everyone is doing out there.
28:44
What are you most proud of in terms of your work and what you,
28:48
what you've done in the world? What really warms my heart is
28:52
when I hear people say that they've begun a regular practice
28:58
because they've been moved by the work that we've done and the
29:04
science suggesting the the value of this and to see a larger
29:14
swath of the population, engaging in these practices is
29:19
really heartening, you know, according to the latest data
29:25
available in the United States, reliable, survey data, almost
29:30
20% of the US population indicates that they use
29:35
meditation, at least, Once a week on a regular basis and
29:41
that's about 46 million people. And it didn't used to be that
29:46
way. And that's encouraging, that's
29:49
amazing. I didn't know that either.
29:52
Yeah, well those they're published data showing that
29:56
reporting that. So you know, it's heartening to
29:59
see that the work we're doing. You know, has played some role
30:05
in encouraging people to take their minds, their own minds
30:11
more seriously and to recognize that they can shape their own
30:16
brains by transforming their minds.
30:21
Yes, and I want to reiterate that point.
30:24
That last Point, again we can always shape our brains, it's
30:27
just a matter of. What are you willing to be for
30:32
yourself and dedicate towards the practice?
30:34
And it can happen and and then when that does, it's remarkable,
30:39
but we have to do it. Each of us has to take that,
30:41
I'll call it personal responsibility and it's almost a
30:44
requirement in our human existence to transform, right?
30:48
Like, that's what I take away and and your Are doing
30:51
incredible work on the on the end of the scientific front to
30:55
know this works and to have that statistic be a reality where
31:00
we're just going to continue to grow in terms of numbers.
31:04
Ideally hopefully with people who are being more aware that
31:09
they can cultivate the mind that they want, no matter how they
31:12
were born, no matter what their family world was like no matter
31:16
what and that is that is true inspiration.
31:20
Army and hopefully others as well.
31:23
So there anything else that you want to add?
31:25
And where can people go to find out more about you?
31:28
I think we've covered a good range and if anyone wishes to
31:33
learn more about our work, I would encourage them to please
31:38
find us on our website. It's the center for healthy
31:42
Minds at the University of Wisconsin-Madison and the
31:45
website is Center healthy minds dot-org.
31:49
And I want to also just express my appreciation to you Rachel
31:54
for for all of your work and for bringing attention to, so many
32:01
of your followers to the importance of nurturing, these
32:06
qualities that we all have in ourselves but that require
32:11
cultivation. I can't say it any better than
32:15
that. So thank you so much for to.
32:18
It's an honor to have you on the program.
32:19
I just want to express my gratitude on on your powerful
32:23
messages today and your great work in the world.
32:26
Keep going. It's awesome.
32:28
Thank you so much. Thanks for listening today.
32:37
I'm Rachel O'Meara, the author of pause, harnessing the life
32:40
changing power of giving yourself a break now that you've
32:44
had a chance to listen to the podcast.
32:47
I want to invite you to continue the conversation and join the
32:50
private Facebook group. Be the pause, you can search for
32:54
it on Facebook or go to facebook.com slash groups /b the
32:58
pause. It's also in the podcast notes
33:01
for this episode. Also, if you are juggling with
33:05
overwhelm or being stressed out at work and you're not really
33:08
sure what to do next. I invite you to download the
33:12
free guide book for the three keys to turn overwhelm into
33:18
thriving at work. This is on my website, Rachel,
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O'Meara.com and you can download it there today.
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See you soon. juggling with overwhelm or being stressed out
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at work and you're not really sure what to do next.
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I invite you to download the free guide book for the three
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keys to turn overwhelm into thriving at work.
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This is on my website, Rachel, O'Meara.com and you can download
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it there today. See you soon.