Latest / Atomic Rambo Podcast / Night Terrors, Alcohol, and the Para Who Finally Broke the Cycle | Andy Williams

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Night Terrors, Alcohol, and the Para Who Finally Broke the Cycle | Andy Williams · Atomic Rambo Podcast

• Dan Holder: I'm Dan this is the Atomic Rambo podcast. my guest Andy Williams. Pleasure to be here. Thanks for inviting me on, Dan. Pleasure, mate. This is something I've wanted to do for a long time ⁓ because ⁓ we're in that rare situation where both of us have ⁓ operated in Afghanistan at times. but we fought in the same place. So you were in 2006 and I was in 2010. I was last boots on the ground when I left and you were there really early on when... It was pretty dicey and it was pretty dicey when I was there as well. So yeah, really interesting. Like I said, I can't think of an occasion where I've actually sat down with someone and had a conversation like this from two different perspectives. Cause yeah, we, we handed over to the Marines in the, for the winter tour as well. What Herrick was it that you were on? Four. The first one in Sangan. But what will be interesting as well to find out is that the MO of the Taliban changed a lot in that time as well. ⁓ was pretty much... the ID thread was pretty much non-existent then. There were suicide bombers, so yeah, it'll be interesting to hear your take on that. Yeah, yeah, for sure. you were in the paras. Yeah. Yeah. And do want to tell us a little bit, before we go into war and all the other jobs you've had and everything, do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself and where you come from and a little bit about that? Yeah, sure. I'm from not not too far from here on the North Wales coast. For the most part, I grew up there. But when I was when I was a kid, well, my my parents abandoned me at a young age when I was a toddler. And so it meant that when I was very young, my sister and I, we we went to live in Saudi Arabia for a period of time because my dad lived over there. He lived and worked over there. So we spent a few years there, although every year I'd go back for two months to Saudi. And that was a brilliant experience in itself as a young lad. Yeah, mad. Just, you know, especially in the 90s to experience somewhere so different to our own culture. It was brilliant. But yeah, so my sister and I, we ended up living in a small flat on the North Wales coast and from the age of, she would have been 15, she became my mum essentially, my only primary caregiver. Yeah, incredible woman. We'll talk bit more about her later. There's something in your book, and something I need to add as well, is that behind you is your book and you're an author beyond the drop zone, which I've read, and it's a fantastic read. And also... it resonated with me in ways I didn't. We've got a lot in common. Like I said before we started recording, I feel like we've almost lived parallel lives to some extent. Yeah. 15, your sister is caring for you. She's 15. She's 15. Yeah. I am. five or six. So yeah, so my mum, she was an alcoholic essentially and very violent as well. And because I was so young. I have got some memories of her because she came back onto the scene at different stages but I never really spent any time with her. So really my sister and my brother got the brunt of how she was and yeah, when I must have been four, three or four, she just one day just disappeared. yeah, it's strange because even though I was so young, Even at a young age I knew what like abandonment felt like. And so growing up I could never understand why I didn't have a mum and a dad like everybody else at school. It was almost embarrassing to say, because if you say, I live with my sister. that as a kid. do remember other kids though having similar, it's hard isn't it? Yeah but you only know what you know don't you? Yeah although I knew it was different, know I didn't know any different and you know she did a fantastic job for someone so young you know to give up her childhood as it was. I mean I'd never class myself as bullied but my dad left for before I was born. And at primary school, some kids used to be like, well, you don't have a dad type of thing. And I remember my mum going into school and having a word with the headmistress and my mum's pretty hard. ⁓ Me being like, but yeah, it's a thing. Kids, especially then, I'd say now like families are split up and stuff a lot more often. Yeah, it's more of a common thing. But it did have a strange impact on me because I don't know if it was some kind of defensive mechanism, but it was a bit of a nightmare in terms of it made me quite cold and I was very careful with who I trusted. I didn't really fit into any kind of friend group, but I had friends. And yeah, I was just... I think I was just sort of desperate to prove to my mum and everybody else to make something of myself. So I think I was destined to join the military from a young age really. Was your brother in the Marines? Yeah, so my brother was a bootneck. He left at 17. There's a bit of an age gap between him and I. He left before she did, so he was already down in Limston doing his train and doing his thing. So yeah, he joined in the late 80s. I think he did. When I was born. Yeah, it's crazy to think the age gap, but I did look up to him hugely as a kid, especially coming from a small town. for someone to go and have all these experiences and he'd come back on leave and he'd tell me all these stories about being in the Marines. I was just fascinated with it like you would be. So why the Paras then? It was a big decision to decide to go to the Paras. mean we used to go down to, it was based in Deal, you had the Royal Marines Band there and he did a stint there. and I used to go down there for a weekend and he'd take me into the barracks, he'd show me the weapons and I was just absolutely obsessed with joining the military. And then I joined the army cadets when I was... 12 and sort of learned a bit more about the military, had some brilliant experiences with the army cadets and then I got to a point in my life where I thought I just I didn't want to copy him and follow in his footsteps. Yeah I get that. I just wanted to kind of carve my own path and that that was where you know I first learned about like the Paris and the Reg and the whole thing of throwing yourself out of an aircraft, the beret, it just appealed to me. You can see why as a young kid, being a paratrooper's like, it ticks all the boxes doesn't it? For a young lad who wants to be in the military. And I had all these, there was a series called Combat and Survival, I don't know if you remember the magazine. throughout, I think it was throughout like the 90s and just like a military magazine and every week there would be a new one released and there'd be a section about some kind of battle honor or some kind of like war story. There'd be a bushcraft section, there'd be some kind of like military field craft thing and I was obsessed with it you know. This was from probably the start of secondary school. And yeah, that was the only thing I was going to do. Did you, because I was never in the cadets, I never had anything to do with the military until the day I turned up. ⁓ And the lads who had been in the cadets, it felt like they were so far ahead of me, especially early on, just because they knew so much. Just even the simple stuff, you know, I'd never, I'd I'd, I'd, I've been in a tent before, but I've never really done anything other than running. That's literally all I did when I was younger. And I'd done team sports and stuff, but when it came to anything to do with the military, I knew nothing and it felt like they were really far ahead. apart from my Fizz seemed to get me through. But do you think that that really helped? Because you went in really young, didn't you? Yeah, 16. Yeah, 16 and nine months. It was as early as I could possibly get in. And I had not really thought about it like that. But yeah, you're probably right. And I think what also helped me is that my my sister married very young and left the flat. And so from a young age, I was probably about 15, although she'd come back and she'd fill the cups with food. I pretty much lived on my own. From what age? Probably about 15, 15 and a half. I think it served me really well. mean, as a kid it brilliant. And there's a really good friend of mine called Cyrus Rustam, he ended up going to 40 Commando. And we used to just bunk off school and train. We'd do these crazy runs from the North Wales, all the way along the North Wales coast to Llandudno. 30 mile run and then get a train back. we'd put... So you were in Goot, you... Yeah, I mean, I mean, you were prepped, weren't you? ⁓ absolutely, mate. Yeah, absolutely. in ways that most lads definitely weren't. And they all come from these these magazines where I'd read about these horrendous exercises. So then I would think of a ⁓ fitness event to go to complement it. So it might be dragging a telegraph pole along the beach, on the sand or put some rocks in a bag and run up the mountain. Yeah, it probably wasn't the most sensible way to train, but I think we bounced off each other really well. Did your brother try and steer you away from being in the military, did he also love it? He did a short period and there just wasn't, he didn't get the opportunity to deploy at that time, it was just that period of time and he got out to get married which I think was probably maybe a mistake at the time for him and he'd agree with that. But no, he was dead keen on it. And when I made the decision to join the Power Riz, I actually wrote him a letter. And I thought he was going to be dead disappointed in me. And he was fine. He's absolutely fine about it. And I just explained my reasons. And yeah, he's probably my biggest supporter going through the depot. Also, if someone wants to do something at that age that are gonna do it, and you may as well be supportive and at least guide them through in the best way possible, I think. I don't promote people joining the military, I'm not like, join the military or anything like that. But if someone's fully committed and I can see it, you know what it's like when you're a 16 year old kid and you wanna join the paras, that kid's joining the paras, regardless of what you say. Yeah, it's, I think you may as well be positive about it. So that's good. I'm pleased. I'm exactly the same as you, know, so I'm going through at the moment with my son who's now 19 and I probably wouldn't steer him in the direction of doing the path that I did. There's nothing wrong with that, but I think that you didn't necessarily have to be on the front line. you know, in my opinion, modern warfare has changed to what it was when we were in. So... ⁓ But when you're that age, you know best, don't you? And in a way, I want him to make his own decision. He has to make that decision himself. Agreed. Because the decision he makes, as we know, will change the course of his life. whatever he decides, I'll be a huge supporter. If he turned around and said he wants to be in the Royal Marines, I'd be a huge supporter of that as well. Yeah, he can go and eat some crayons there. Who are both great at it. Yeah, fair. Yeah. That's good to hear. All right, so join the Paras. At 16, was that called junior? What was it called? At that time they'd got rid of... changed it? Yeah, so this was just after 9-11. So similar to yourself, know, it was a great time to join in terms of... Operations. Yeah, yeah. I mean, so fortunate, even though it came at a cost that we were able to join at a time where you got to do what you wanted to do, what you aspired to do as a soldier. So yeah, it was just Catric up in North Yorkshire. The Army Careers Advisor, they tried to steer me in the direction of the Army Foundation College, which again, nothing against that. But I just wanted to wait a little bit longer and then go in to Catric for phase one. It was all up there. So Northern Ireland tours? Yeah, Northern Ireland was my first tour. Like going through the depot, I felt like from living on my own, from the training, I was quite well equipped to be a soldier at a young age. And I found myself helping the older lads because I could already maintain a house. I was fairly domesticated. I could use an iron. I was fit. And when it came to where you go in battalion, two parrots were already in Ireland. I initially wanted to go to Tsu Parra because my PTI was Tsu Parra, guy. unfortunately he was killed in Afghan years later, but just someone I... Like an inspiration, someone you looked up to who was a good bloke. Yeah, know, disgustingly fit. Yeah. Just ⁓ for him through, someone I really respected. ⁓ I couldn't, that option wasn't available because they were in Ireland. So yeah, I ended up going to Tsu Parra ⁓ ⁓ Not long after I got to Battalion, the Battalion were training to go to Iraq for the second Gulf War. So unfortunately... So what year is this? 2003. So I got to Battalion in 2002, beginning in 2002, they deployed in 2003. Yeah, following like the fall of Saddam and the US-led invasion. But because I was only 17, I couldn't deploy. So, you know, to say I was gutted is an understatement. You know, you get to battalion the whole... Although as we learn later, you have to be careful what you wish for. Exactly. Yeah, 100%. And I think that deployment for the battalion, it was... it wasn't what everybody hoped for. Yeah. In a, you know, in a, in kind of perverted way. Kinetic sense. Yeah. Yeah. I get that. And yeah, so I was stuck on rear guard at 17 with, had the, he was a full screw. He was ex two rep foreign Legion maniac. And he kind of looked after us. And then as the guys turned 18, they'd be straight on an aircraft over to Iraq. But the battalion came back. And that was hard in itself because you're part of a battalion that's just come back from, even though wasn't very kinetic, they still come back from war. They crossed the border into Iraq. And then you're a crow on the station, brand new, and you have to prove yourself. So that was incredibly hard, especially at a young age as well. You you're going into a platoon of men. So yeah, I came back and I ended up going on the boxing team and that helped hugely, I think, with Intrigate, integrating into battalion. So I did a bit of boxing as a civilian and... When I got to battalion, probably the same in the corps, you have like an inter-company competition. I was pretty much voluntold that's what I was going to do because I was fit and I'd done a bit of boxing. It was like me, I was in the cross-country team. I did one run and they were like, yeah, this guy's... I don't want to do it, Corporal. Yeah, I did the unit. the unit cross country, Pierce dressed as Robin Hood and came second. They were like, okay. Brilliant. is that, is that- That's at 40. Yeah. So is that in like within the, within 40? Yeah, within 40. So yeah, similar thing. If I'm honest, there's not many boxes on that team, you're just people that are fit and you can... Yeah, who are little bit handy and fit and want to train and committed. The actual level of skill is probably a bit debatable, but especially with... It was, I think it was three, two minute rounds. So, you know, from the get-go, you need to, you know, you sort of head down windmill in, so to speak. But yeah, I did all right in the company boxing. It was invited to go on the battalion team. Mega. Which was a, huge privilege. And like, I'm sure it's the same in the core. You're pretty much a professional athlete. You're- just training all the time, yeah. Training all the time. tracksuit soldier, we had our own scoff times in the canteen, we would travel around the country and spar against, like we sparred against the England team, we'd go against other units and went on to win the intercompany boxing for the whole of the army. Brilliant, really really tough, mean the... the knowledge around cutting weight is probably quite ruthless. Not ruthless, we didn't kind of, you just had to make that weight, you know. Okay, yeah, don't, so I've never boxed, I've never, and I'm shit at cutting weight. I don't know anything about it. I run heavy. But, and that's why I've got a huge amount of respect for people that do that for a living, because it's not just those... those rounds in the ring, it's your whole lifestyle. the other stuff, Yeah, cutting out meals, the long runs when you're just feeling absolutely... But amazing for discipline, consistency. All the boxers I know are really on it. Yeah, definitely, definitely. those attributes, as you'll know, they transfer into every aspect of your life, whether it's... looking after your kit and making sure your belt kit is squared away or out in the field or whatever, any other area of training. Yeah, so I did the boxing for a year and then I knew the battalion were going to be going to Northern Ireland. So I missed out on the first Iraq. Pretty much did a year as a tracksuit soldier. Which I think is a great introduction to it. That's great. and you did, there was an element of respect in the battalion because the team were phenomenal. They went on to win for the next decade, I think. was like incredible team. So you had a little bit of respect in battalion with the more senior private soldiers. And then there was an option to go box for the army as an individual, but I just, that was enough for me. I wanted to get into platoon, know, sort of prove yourself among the blokes. And then, yeah, went to Northern Ireland in, I think it was either end of 2003, beginning of 2004 for the marching season. Yeah. And was that... So Northern Ireland was that like policing essentially, know, patrols. policing, bit of riot type stuff. Yeah, yeah. So it's for the marching season over the summer months. So we go down to Lid in Kent. Yeah, Lid and Hive ranges. Yeah. You do all your public audit training there. And it's horrendous, know, especially when the weather's hot in all your riot gear. it's... Brilliant training, brilliant training. It's pretty invaluable actually, isn't it? That type of stuff. Yeah, yeah. And I remember you've probably experienced it yourself. The villages that you'll go to. did. I did. Obviously I never went to Northern Ireland. I only did one tour of Afghanistan, but I did do some of the training that was like similar that obviously came off the back of all Northern Island tours. And I found, I didn't find it fun. Wrong word. It was just like good. I enjoyed it. yeah. Just quite carnage. ⁓ absolutely. At the time you're hanging out, but then when you look back, you think that was actually a brilliant time. Yeah. In the mock village with shops and houses and people. you run through these these scenarios that you might get over in Northern Ireland. So I can't remember how long the beat up training was, but we ended up deploying to West Belfast. It's for the marching season, we are area of operations. We mostly supported the PSNI, the police service in Northern Ireland. And there were some pretty sticky situations, you know, where... You're talking like thousands of people that yeah a mob of people that can turn on you Quite frightening and a different it was a different type of conflict to anything else I went on to experience because it's so up close and I'm very personal and It's angry Yeah, absolutely. there's no... You can't really control it. Once it switches, it switches quite bad. Yeah. And there's no use of lethal force. It was all public order. batting rounds and things like that. But we were only out there a few months to cover the marching season and most of the time you're just preparing in the barracks, intelligence briefings, atmospheric patrols and then actually supporting the marches. So yeah, I came back from that and then almost immediately was told we were going to go to Iraq. So yeah, that was good because I sort of got the chance to actually deploy. Yeah, I'm as a, so were you what 18? Iraq was nearly 19. you're going to be chomping a bit to smoke up the middle. Yeah, just to deploy to a desert environment, know, get a good inking. something different, Yeah, and so Iraq then, what was your primary role there? So I come back from Northern Ireland and then the battalion run the carders that they do every year or every couple of years where if you want to specialise in a certain area, if you want to be a medic, a sniper, a signaller and my boss at the time he said he'd give me the option to go to any platoon that I wanted or at least try out for the carder. And for some reason, I don't know why, a support company and the heavy machine guns appealed to me. ⁓ Being on a 50 cal machine gun, I thought was a pretty cool thing to do. ⁓ There was now a lot more use of it in a vehicle mount, using the vehicles. So when it did the heavy machine guns carder, in where did we go I think it was down near Haverford West, Southwest Wales a couple of months and then they take however many they can. So Heavy Weapons course was that HMG? It wouldn't have been GMG then, would it? It was, no, we actually... GPMGSF? Yeah, yeah, GPMGSF. It's a mega-course, I think. ⁓ brilliant, yeah. GPMGSF is a fantastic weapon. ⁓ I don't know if it's the same in the Marines, but just support company as a whole. Fire support group, yeah. Yeah, it's more senior. Yeah, lads that have got experience. You normally get the more experienced corporals in there and stripies and yeah, I agree with that. Lads dropping jabs and yeah, those type of lads. Because I think when I left, I think they ended up combining tanks and guns into just, know, FSG mortars. Yeah, it was great. Yeah a bit more relaxed, you know people had at the time longer hair Bigger side ease which is the thing to do at the time It's definitely a similar vibe in the Marines. Yeah, you know your standard address a bit more relaxed but good professional soldiers big drinking culture Yes, in battalion as a whole. Yeah, you know, but especially machine gun especially sport company I'd say mortars, mortars in the Marines probably get that. What is it about mortars? It's exactly the same in the regiment. I don't know what it is about I don't know what it is with mortars. They're all maniacs. Yeah, they're loose. mortars, well mortars is still a thing obviously in lads, but they're the guys with the mullets and tashes. Yeah. If they could. Yeah, yeah. With short denim shorts. There's footage, I don't know who it came from in Afghan, but all of sudden the blokes were wearing no tops, just a plate carrier, a Mohican, and then just boxer shorts and flip-flops. It's like war fighting. Yeah, that's mortals, lads. But yeah, so. So you were in. Just a rifle company initially. Rifle company, yeah. Yeah. And then went over to the guns and then was attached to a rifle company for an Iraq deployment, which was to the south of Iraq, to Basra. And I later went back there as a civilian and spent, you know, many years of my life in that area. But yeah, I went back to Iraq. It wasn't very kinetic that tour. There was a significant risk of IDs. There was a lot more going on north of Basra, especially in Phleujo, Ramadi, in the top with the US and SF guys. But a brilliant deployment. mean, we were in... I forget the name of the camp now, an old airport, old Basra airport. I mean you had like Burger King and it was fantastic. But as a gun team we would go out on the ground in the the Wimix with the guns mounted and we'd spend days in the desert you know just completely self-reliant, no one to answer to. and we would carry out these atmospheric patrols over two, three, four days just living in the desert. For the basis of people that don't know, Wimix are armored Land Rover. Yeah, Yeah, essentially a stripped down Land Rover that has guns mounted on So you're quite light and fast really, but with good firepower. Yeah, brilliant firepower, 50 cal on a turret. Just not so good if you hit a mine. Yeah, that's the thing. So, manoeuvrability, firepower, awesome, but little to no armour protection. And they roll easily, you'll know. Yeah, with the top weight, Yeah, brilliant. Yeah, and what I would say about what it sounds like with that Iraq deployment, is I would have been a completely different soldier if I had done something like that before I went to what we'll talk about going to sangin. Interesting, Because I had no operational experience whatsoever. My first was sangin. And I think just that knowledge and just working together with people in with live rounds with like just actually going through stuff and it not being that kinetic, okay, fair enough, but... being in a contact or anything would have helped a lot. So your first on the ground it was sang in? That's flushed about. six and a half months. Jesus, yeah. Yeah, that's point man. That is, yeah, that's interesting. So you've got to learn. Yeah, quickly. there was an occasion in Iraq where we were shot at, but it was kind of, we kind of just laughed about it because they weren't aimed rounds. They're just... Yeah, yeah. Some of them. And it was just a burst of fire and it came from across the border in Iran. We were liaising with a police commander and... this was a regular thing that happened, know, sporadic rounds of fire across the border. And ⁓ it was an accurate fire, but it was still in the general direction and it was enough to sort of... Was it like crack, crack, crack? Yeah, yeah. I'm talking a few rounds, but... No, I get it, But then you've got like, you know... But that's what I mean, but you're still getting that experience and I think that is invaluable. which probably helped with what you then went to do because, yeah, it got a little bit hairier after that, didn't it? Yeah, yeah, definitely did. Definitely did. yeah, we had four Wimix that made ready, you know, 50 cal machine guns ready to kind of unleash hell. And you can do a lot. You can do a lot with 50s like, like suppressing fires. Unreal. Like you're getting your head down aren't you? And you've got, you know, you think you've got these young paratroopers that, you you desperately want to get into a contact and like you said, you've got to be extremely careful what you wish for but you do, 18, 19, you don't really realise that do you? No and I didn't, you know, I knew going into sangin that we were going there. with a very high IED threat and to maybe get in the odd contact, but it ended up just being both, like heavy. So yeah, that's, yeah. But at the same time, I was, that's what I was there for. I'd be lying if I said I didn't join up to go and scrap. And that's probably. It's strange for people to listen to that have not been in that situation, but there is this weird dichotomy of that, you know, that we're so fortunate that we had the opportunity to do that. You know, there's guys in the regiments now that are, you know, they're hanging out to have that opportunity. And I don't know how about how you feel about this, but... and will probably go into it, but as a result of that, if I had the option, it probably wasn't worth it for me. I wouldn't change it, but if I'd have known then what I know now, yeah, the consequences of it were quite heavy. Were heavy, yeah. The consequences of it were heavy. I would still do it again, but... Obviously I wish the lads didn't die. Yeah, of course, yeah. But I wouldn't change it just because who I became out the back of it. I learn a lot. But yeah, I mean there's so much when it comes to that, like Afghan as well, there's so much that you're just like, what the fuck are we doing? But the way I kind of compartmentalise it is that for me it was... on both sides, Taliban and us, it was young lads wanting to scrap. Like regardless of whatever way you look at it, the camaraderie, you're doing it for your mates. I've never been, I love my country, but. I'm not going to pretend I was doing it, you know, for that because the day you set your foot off the CH-47, you step your foot into Afghan, the first thing you think is, well, this ain't saving anything at home, is it? Yeah. And I'm sorry, but people are lying if they say that that was doing something that was saving the country or protecting it because... It just wasn't. Like you said then, for me it was about the person to my left, person to my right, person in my immediate team. That's all that mattered to me. So how long did a rut go on for then? I think we were there for four or five months. It was slightly shorter deployment. yeah it came back from that and that's 2003 2000 that rack was 2005 oh okay yeah yeah so I only must have been four five yeah and then almost immediately so you've already deployed twice by the age of 19 yeah 19 Yeah, I came back from Iraq, got married. the old classic. Yeah, yeah. Thought it was for the right. And it was. No, yeah. was at the time. Yeah, hindsight. Fantastic. Yeah. And they say, don't they, absence makes the heart grow fonder. And yeah, almost immediately Afghans started coming on the radar. You know, probably similar to Iraq and Ireland. In 1819. My knowledge of geopolitics and the wider, broader scope of what was going on in the world, it was non-existent. As if you can form an opinion on that by being in the reg anyway. Yeah, exactly. Like, you're going one way, one way only. And your briefings and everything are directed towards you being an effective warfighter, not fucking knowing the ins and outs of the... the politics and what's really going on. Yeah, was crazy. when I, I mean, jump in the gun a little bit, but I came back and as we'll go into it, I was... I wasn't right and I didn't know it at the time but my brother introduced me to an ex undercover cop and this guy, he was taken hostage in Bosnia, this guy. He's phenomenal story, I'd love to speak to him now and he was... My brother wanted him to kind of check that I was okay. And one of the first things he said to me was, do you know why you were there? Do you know why you were in Sangin doing what you did? And I was 20, 21 at the time. was like, no, no, no. I know we have the mission brief. supporting the Afghan police. the stabilisation, crunch and everything, but really that specifically what we were doing, the wider thing of it, I didn't know, if I'm honest, I know now, but I didn't know at the time. Yeah, was coin a thing when you were there? don't think so. Counting in surgency. Yeah, there was counter-services. I know you were doing that. It's just obviously they bought they bought out like a this is what we're doing type of thing. Yeah, yeah, not not as much. mean there were courageous restraint we had at the beginning. Yeah, no, doubt the phrase doesn't. Yeah, this is where we'll talk about the differences and what you were doing and what I was doing in the same area and how it evolved over time. Yeah, we didn't even have the phrase positively identifying a target. wasn't the idea. because it was a, I forget the name of the rules of engagement card alpha. changed it. Yeah. And it was essentially war fighting, you know. Yeah. So that's what we, so we went out as, I could be wrong on this because memory is a little bit hazy, but we had little cards and it had card alpha written on it. And then it, you know, you need to positively identify a target. things like they were the rules of engagement and then we moved into war fighting later on as it got worse and worse and it became apparent that there was no point having courageous restraint because then you're getting fucking killed. So yeah ours adapted over time but it definitely caused some issues early on. We should have been shooting earlier in some circumstances. But we're worried. That's tough, Yeah, because we'll get on to that. yeah, that's interesting because I think a lot changed. So you were in Afghanistan in 2006, right? Yeah, so we deployed, was the Easter of 2006. It was the first one into Helmand province. So a lot of the district centers... Musakala, Nauzed, Sangen, the blokes would go in there and take in that compound for the first time and fortify it. But yeah, like I said, from my experiences anyway, other than Kajaki, heavily mined, it was very much conventional warfare, small arms, rockets, mortars. know, everything that he joined for really. And, you know, I think it would have been incredibly more challenging to have that IED risk as well as the kinetic side of it. I know the battalion, they ended up going back in, I think it was 08 and 2010, I think, and it changed again, you know, but yeah, it was a unique. period of time. Yeah, so you deployed there and your job again was what I would call Fire Support FSG, Group Heavy Weapons. So we had a number of several district centres that were strategically located as you all know around the Helmand River, throughout Helmand and a lot of them were former police buildings, governors, compounds and we would occupy them as a gun team. So in the example of Sangen as you well know there was a flat mud roof and we would man the guns on there you know 24 7 but additionally to that every day we were putting out patrols around the area yeah and then we would we would take two of the guys and they would go with the... So when you say mud roof was this in Jackson? Yes. So you were in main Jackson, which is just off of the main Sangin Bazaar. Yes. Just next to it. And then you've got the river around the back. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. Where you'd wash the fast flowing river. Yeah. That one. Yeah. Yeah. Where they lost kids down the tunnel. Yeah. ⁓ crazy. Like you'd, you used to go in as a hold, a length of rope so that you didn't get washed down the river. Yeah. So yeah, yeah, so we occupied that. There was a team of, I think there was eight of us, and we were either on the guns, I'd like two or three 50 cal positions, GPMG positions on the first level and then on the roof. And then every day we would go out and support the rifle company. doing various patrols, like counter insurgency ops to get high value targets in some cases. ⁓ But yeah, that was similar to you. That was my first deployment onto the ground, so to speak. Yeah, so what was your first contact like then? So we, ⁓ where did you do beat up training for it then? Because we went to Oman. in the UK, obviously it's just the same as Hellman. Honestly, my first day on patrol I was fucking dangling. I was in a bad way. Almost to the point of like this isn't even workable. We're heavy as anything. I'm like metal detecting and yeah I was going down. And it turns out I'm not that good in the heat. I adapted. didn't take, you know, I always adapt. It just takes a bit of time. But that first patrol, you know, my brain was cooking. It's hard to explain just how challenging it is. You you have a hot day in the UK and you think, you know, this is horrendous. But then it's the added, you know, your plate carrier, the sheer amount of weight you're carrying and ammunition. your helmet so you're not, it's just sweltering and then that's before the physical exertion side of it. Did you have a period of time of acclimatising in Bastion? Before you were straight out of the ground. We were straight out, yeah. The problem was the rifles were hanging out. They'd lost a lot of guys. We were taken over from the rifles. So we went there and then we went on patrols with them. Small patrols because they weren't that far out because they'd just been beaten back to Jackson basically. So we were going out on what do call it, familiarisation patrols with them. And I fucking remember meeting them for the first time just looking at them and being like ⁓ dear I remember seeing their eyes. I remember the right yeah, I remember that rifles tour that they had a They got absolutely bad just 30 odd lads they they lost In that area so you relieved them from sangin yeah, yeah, and then our first proper patrol We went straight out. So if you're on the roof, I'm pretty sure it's south. Do know where Pyle was? Down the river towards the green zone where it's like really green. Yeah, down there. We went straight out down there. and just went on a big old patrol. One of the lads got a couple of confirms of GPMG and we're scrapping immediately and we're like, holy fuck, this is a little bit more kinetic. And that was like day one, the first patrol the lads went on. Yeah, I know where you mean. You used the term one back wood. No. was in that direction through the cornfields where the Chinese rockets would come from. Yeah and you've got the series of tree lines. Yeah. And I spent a load of time cutting those tree lines down under fire so that you guys at the fire support group had better arcs and could actually, because they were just coming up all the ditches, lines all the time, like you said mortars. Accurate sniper fire. had a hello, you know, we had a black hole go down that was here. Yeah It's wild because when you actually leave the compound, there's hardly any hard cover is there for a period of time? It's a you get to the actual into the bizarre or if you go the other way, there's nothing. Yeah, you know So you just out in the open But yeah, yeah, it's the day I arrived ⁓ The section went out into the bazaar and were contacted and I was on the gun on the roof and in the initial contact one of the blokes from A Company was shot through his femur and another guy was shot through his shoulder and this was the start of what was 50 days there. That was actually quite minor into what was to come, but that was my first experience of, you know. Yeah, someone getting shot through the femur and the shoulder. And I was just like... It's the minor thing. Yeah, yeah. And probably saying similar to yourself, you you're just like, what? But some of the gun lads had been there previously for a short stint. So I kind of knew, I knew what was going into, but not to the scale that what it went into. Yeah. And I think what helped me massively is I kept a contact chart on a bit of a ration box. I've still got it now. throughout the period we were there, there was only a handful of days where there was no form of contact. know, every day, sometimes it was several hours, sometimes it was multiple times in the day. it was hard to distinguish between incidents because it all just kind of blurred into one. So fortunately for me, especially when it comes to writing the book, I had a time and date stamped of the incidents, what rounds were fired, what casualties were sustained, how many confirmed kills of the Taliban there were. So yeah, that helped. I think that helped as well in processing the events as well. because you could go back into each It's a good idea. I've got little diaries, they're a little bit different. Do you journal now? Yeah, yeah. And with my clients doing the work I do now, I get people to journal, especially the guys, because if they don't want to talk about their emotions, sometimes they might write them down, and it's a good start to get people to start processing things. But I actually, I had the little right in the rain books. Like, I don't know, that big. And I was jotting things down and I've looked back at them, not recently, it probably six months ago. And the beginning I've got really good and then it's just like short entries like... so-and-so was lost. It just ends up being a right shit show and I can't physically write much about it, which kind of makes sense now that I then suffered with it after. I was talking about this recently, I was with some veterans over the weekend and When you actually think back, we were talking about some of the things we involved with, like we ran out of food for two weeks. Literally ran out of food to eat. And the only thing we had was biscuit browns with melted Yorkie bars, know, the not for civilians. And then other than that, it was either... the Afghan bread that the turp would bring in for us. the, did you have Zamzam? Does that ring a bell? It's like an Afghan Fanta that is, like the consistency of syrup. And just obviously high sugar, but. We were a bit more set up when we were there. There was more. At Jackson, I wasn't at Jackson for that long. I was in the small patrol bases mainly, patrolling from there. But they had like supplies coming in, like you could get drinks and things like that. They had like a little tuck shop and stuff. So I think it was a bit more set up by the time I went there compared to when you were there, which was... I've seen pictures and I've seen videos of when you were there and it just looks a bit more wild. Yeah, I mean there's no wonder, you know, what happened when I came back because I just think for yourself as well to live in that high state of arousal for a sustained period of time, physiologically that is going to change things in your brain. 100%. because it's just not normal. You can go out on an op and it can be very kinetic, but for that sustained period of time, I generally didn't think I was gonna leave that place. I considered all sorts, I considered ⁓ putting a pistol and shooting my ear off at one point to get myself out. I know it wasn't us, the Americans, there were definitely guys NDing on themselves. Oh really? People shooting themselves in the foot, people doing all kinds of... Can you blame them? We were going out on patrol and getting casualties all the time. It was even worse, the Americans, we'd watch them go out on patrol. I'd be there in the briefings because I was a point man and I had a big map with dots where I knew where all the devices were which we hadn't done anything with because you couldn't get anyone there because they'd get shot at or killed. I'd go in on there, they'd ask for little bit of intelligence and then I'd watch them go out and they'd just extended line ⁓ and just go and it'd be like... They'd stack up on a fucking compound that we said there's IEDs on and then get multiple casualties because they're going through the door and then it was set off a daisy chain of IEDs and you're like, no wonder lads did not want to go out on patrol. Yeah, horrendous. And then apparently after we left it got even worse. The USMC took over. For the US lads, yeah. Yeah, to the point of they basically had to steamroll the old place and then they just ditched. Because we were only supposed to be there for a few weeks and just because we were so short on the ground, like I say, we ended up staying there for 50 days. And psychologically, that was tough because, you know, we'd be told, 48 hours, there's a chin-up coming in, you're going to be relieved in place. And then the night before, it was like, sorry, lads, you're here for another two weeks. But imagine sang in without fire support. Yeah, fire support and air. Yeah, we just, don't think we'd have held it. There was a period where we had a bad batch of 50 cal ammo and after every round you had a stoppage, which is obviously not ideal in a contact. Yeah. So we ended up, we got to a point where we were down to the last couple of boxes of ammo, which as you know in a firefight will go in a matter of minutes. And then we managed to get a, I think it was a Stonian ammo, but you know, was enough, it was enough that we were kind of like, if it goes off tonight, like it has done every other day, there's a good chance we're gonna run out of ammo here. There's only one occasion out on the ground where we were told to fix bayonets. Yeah, and yeah that was you know a day that will always forever stay with me because a good friend of mine, he was shot through the neck and we were surrounded by the Taliban. We could hear them talking over the mud walls and ⁓ Yeah, so it was kind of like an atmospheric patrol. We went out of B Company. From the moment we left the compound gates, we were in contact in the open ground. And that went on for the next 14 hours. ⁓ It was wild. mean, there were RPG rounds being fired down the alleyway. where a Taliban fighter would rush out of the finale way, pop a one off, rounds ricocheting everywhere. It ended up in a friend of mine, he was shot through the neck and then at that point we fixed bayonets. because of the intensity of the fighting, the platoon was split and we kind of... At one point we wanted to lob grenades over the walls but we couldn't because we didn't know where it was and there was a distinct moment where I remember looking into this irrigation ditch. and there was an interpreter lying there and I thought he was dead because he was just lying there motionless and it was only when I looked closely I could see he was crying and he pissed himself I was just like what is what is going on and then given that you know given the order to fix bayonets and we we essentially pushed the Taliban all the way back to the Helmand River north they had nowhere else to go so they were pretty much fighting for their lives. Yeah, it was incredibly, incredibly intense and then, you know, a few hours later I was back on stack. Did your mate die? He survived and this was something that stuck with me for a long time and, you know, I've sort of kind of worked my way through it now but... We were in a situation where we were in a, it was a half mud wall and we'd been ambushed from one side. So we went up onto this flat roof just to try and identify a firing position. He was shot through the neck. Then it came out of his neck, ricocheted and went into his chest cavity. Stu, a good friend, he was my gun team partner. we went up and we had this impossible situation where do we keep him where he is and you know put rounds down but we thought he was dead or was dying it was very you know yeah and so we had to get him off that roof so we did the best we did we did the best we could in a horrendous situation and kind of I left all of my trauma bandages, everything I had, and then me, Stu, and a few others went back onto the roof to put down fire support so that this guy could be evacuated. Crazy scenario, so on the way in to get him evacuated, Quad Bike came in with a trailer. quad bike was hit with an RPG that didn't detonate, quad bike rolled, driver got back up, him on the back and so yeah to answer your question he survived but he's paralyzed from the neck down. R okay. Jesus. Yeah when he went I thought I wouldn't see him again I thought that was the end of it and when I actually wrote the book I reached out to him and I was like, look, this is something that had a significant impact on my life. I want to write about it, but I want your blessing because it's quite personal. he was fine with it. he was fine with it. So yeah, he was kind of quite like Reggie Bowie. He was like, yeah, I just want you to make it sound good and send me a copy of the book. Yeah, make sure it's Ali. Dark humour. That's it. And then one of my... One of the things that really sort of haunted me afterwards was my hand and my sleeve were saturated in his blood. for years later, if I drew any blood, say if I was biting my nails and I drew a bit of blood, the sight and the feel and the smell of that, it'd take me right back there. It's extraordinary how trauma can have that effect on you. Yeah, mines, mines, the dust. If it's a summer day and it's dusty and I get that, you know, that weird dusty smell that just like sets me off. the heat. fields with tree lines at the back. So I used to when I was a tree surgeon I climbed trees. This is in the early days like after Be climbing a tree and then if there was like a field of a tree line in the back all of sudden I'd just be like staring at it next minute. I'm back out the back of Jackson Scrapping. Yeah, it's yeah, just crazy the triggers in it crazy. Yeah, yes, like you said smells and Yeah, so it took me a long time to work through that and, you know, like I say, we did the best we could in a horrendous situation. Yeah. It sounds like he's really lucky. Yeah. I mean, lucky. Yeah. And I remember, we, all his weapon in his kit, we did this like fighting withdrawal to a building called, I think we just called it the Chinese Restaurant. It was like semi derelict, it had been blasted with bombs. I remember being that emotionally fatigued. We got there, made a brew, we were waiting for the air, and then I actually fell asleep, well we all fell asleep for like 10 minutes, it felt like hours. woke up and it was kind of like, right, we need to get back to the compound now. And again, it was, we were in contact the whole way back. I mean, that day could have gone a lot worse than what it did. And yeah, so yeah, it's just one of those things that I think it's... Of course that's going to have an impact on you. I don't think you would be a human being if it didn't on some level because of course it's not a normal thing to experience. Yeah, also that level of contact when you're under fire for that length of time. mean, your eyes are on stalks and you're digging in with your eyelids. But for 14 hours, that's a long time. My worst, not worst, but my largest contact was when I was in a patrol base. I was in Pyleace. out the back, down the, there's like a little track that runs, I think it's like 700 meters out the back of Jackson. We were in there and... a good push to try and overrun us basically. And you know, my biggest contact was one where we didn't even have one injury, but we were clacking off claymores on the walls and we had two Apaches Winchester themselves just trying to keep them off us. And I was raining GMG just literally hosing and getting RPG rounds to the front and rounds to the sandbags. That sticks in my mind as our biggest contact day and that's not even one of my traumatic things. But you think about it and then I know, I don't know whether you do, but you talk about like a glass and it's filled up with little bits of trauma and you know, it all builds up and ours was just, from being in singing, I just found that we were in such... so many traumatic incidences with people being lost and people being blown up and all sorts that the chances of you being okay after unless you're like I don't know a narcissist or like extreme was really low if you survived. yeah and that you know it's quite ⁓ It helped me a lot knowing that in the years that came after, knowing that I wasn't the only one, because I thought it was just me and I was just weak. You know, and I know that the narrative has changed hugely around PTSD, but, you know, thinking like, ⁓ it's just me, I'm the only one. And obviously now I know that that's not the case and that wasn't the case. And for some guys it was... immediately after some guys it was 10 years after or life circumstances that gave them a period of time where they're in their head a lot and they don't have a support network. that's when it manifested itself. So, and that's why I think things like this are invaluable. Absolutely invaluable. Yeah. Agreed. And just being open and talking about it, Mike, because I talk to guys all the time, exactly what you just said. They're like, ⁓ I've been fine. But I know people that started struggling with it 20 years after doing stuff, you know, and all of sudden they're like, I'm just not feeling all right. I'm thinking about this all the time. And yeah, you know, it can add. I know we, as we said from the beginning, we have a lot in common, but booze for me was the thing that delayed everything. I was just boozing all the time, so then I didn't have to think about it. Did that cut happen pretty much as soon as you got back? Yeah, not far off, and then when I ⁓ was awarded the medal, I was going to lots of champagne do's and things all the time, being paraded around. having my citation read out all the time. So I was just reliving my friends dying and you know being blown, I got blown up and took loads of things. Very lucky, no physical injuries, just a mental one. And because I was reliving it over and over and over again, having my citations over there, you can have a read. But having to relive that over and over again just got it worse and worse and then night terrors started getting bad. I was getting daily flashbacks and then I was like well I can work really hard during the day doing my tree work and then I'll just go down the pub. then you could just sink six or seven pints and you'd black out or whatever and then... Yeah, it's so similar. mean, yeah, different, but... And interesting words when you said you were being paraded around. Yeah, it wasn't my choice. Yeah, I was... I'm from the RMR, right? I'm a rubber dagger. I'm just a rubber dagger that ended up being a point man and fighting. know, hardcore fighting troop in the Royal Marines in one of the worst places on the planet. It just went like that, you know, but... For them, for a rubber dagger to come back and win, or not, be awarded a bravery medal was quite a thing for them. So they obviously, you know, wanted to use that. Which is fine, and I speak to all these guys now and they're all my friends. And they didn't realise, they didn't even know I was bad because they never even understood what I was doing. Because it's all lost, isn't it? You don't come back and go, ⁓ yeah, I was doing this and I was doing that. You come back and go, ⁓ how was the tour? And you're like, yeah, that was alright, you know. It's only when they've asked me a few questions, and you know, really, really experienced bootneck who I ski with every year. I remember him, I went and helped him do some tree work at his house, right? And I was like, oh, what was your tour like, Matt? And he kind of explained, he's like, what about yours, Dan? Never really heard about it. And I started explaining and I was like, is that not normal? And he was like, fuck no. And then I started to click. And you know, he'd done Northern Ireland, he'd done Iraq, he's done Afghan, he'd done loads of stuff. And he was like, ⁓ no, I've never experienced to that level. And then I started to think, ⁓ actually, sangin' was a, or just Afghan in general. Was there a certain time where you knew like this, I'm not, this isn't normal, I'm not right, and I need some support, do you think, or was it more gradual? ⁓ If I've been honest, I knew I wasn't okay. but still young. You still think that you're... I got therapy and I went to Combat Stress, the charity lasted a few days and left and then ended up going down the private sorted the flashbacks and the night terrors out and then it was just a process of time and working on myself and stuff like that but I ended up just going fully private and doing it all myself. And that never stops either does it you know the working on yourself? No but I would say you know I'm training in EMDR at the moment to help people. because I think with my experience and being a trained therapist and it would be quite a good tool to help people really well. And I call it post-traumatic growth now. Like I've done so many things because of what I went through that I see as apart from the losses of the lads, like I was explaining earlier, I wouldn't take any of it back because I'm... glad that I went through it and it's made me the resilient person that's here today. So yeah, in terms of, there's one thing I want to ask you about singing at that time, because I know a lot of lads that were on similar tours in the earlier days, the mortars, what was that like? Yeah, so over the course of the 50 days, the MO of the Taliban, did change. Initially it was small arms. automatic weapons and then I remember us we were listening to the ICOM chatter and they said which is a radio that listens into the Taliban talking basically yeah their frequency Turp will be listening to it and they I think they use the term along the lines of our friends with barrels are coming over and a lot of the Taliban they were foreign fighters and distinctly remember the time where they came over and then the mortars started to come and Obviously being in a static location on a flat roof. It's not ideal. No Fortunately they were They were fairly Unaccurate most of the time but it was close enough. It was close enough and there was a few occasions where I thought that was it, you know, there's one occasion in particular where was looking out of a sanger position. They had some intelligence on the ICOM and they said, we're getting ready to fire the barrels. And as you do, everyone stands to you. You're on the gun, you're observing your arcs and you're waiting. And what usually happened after the bombs were fired would there would be some kind of an assault on the compound. and a good friend of mine, Nick, were on the gun and were looking out of this sandbag position. And it's just eerily silent. It's not like a kinetic firefight where it's just noise and it's carnage and people are screaming. It was just silent, apart from the odd crackle of a radio. And then the sandbag in front of our face. We're on the first floor. It just slumps off the Sanger position and it falls to the ground And we were like, well, that's not normal sandbags. I just fall off and so we would put our head through the Sanger position and there was an intact 82 millimeter mortar bomb Smoking on the ground and it had been dropped it hit the sandbag in front of our face and fallen For whatever reason, divine intervention, it was a dud round, it didn't detonate. And at the time we just laughed about it. We all withdrew to a safe area, EOD had to come in, wire it up and there was a controlled explosion. and I was actually able to get hold of the fin of the mortar and my plan was to put it on a bracket and frame it. Did it get taken off you? Yeah. When it came back. I was gutted. I was absolutely gutted. I had shot glasses with my old 40 mic mic because I had a UGL, underslung grenade launcher and I had the cases for shot glasses for drinking and they got taken off me. on the way back through by the wrath. But then I don't know would it have been a healthy reminder or not. a claymore bag for a wash bag as well for a long time and someone stole that off me as well. Yeah that was the other thing I noticed that as the time went on you know the saying when it comes to the slaughter bombs bullets and water when we first got there everyone's got all their like alley tailored weapon and boots and then by the end we were feral you know claymore bag was just add bonds and yeah bag with grenades and and then you know you're firing a jimpy with with flip-flops on you know no top on you just i think we were all losing the plot to some degree and it just got very you know very primal ⁓ you know everyone loses like an incredible amount of weight. mean, I look at some of the pictures you look ill. You're after one of my races. Yeah, pretty much. But yeah, so yeah, the mortars and ⁓ the Chinese rockets, the 107 millimeter rockets, which were incredibly hard to identify firing position. Our mortars were quite good. identifying fine positions for the mortars. Yeah, there's a few times where they're bracketing you in. When you're seeing them come in. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. There was one particular occasion on a roof where a good friend of mine, they bracketed in to an extent where the next round was on our heads. The one before, we're talking like 40, 50 meters away. Yeah. they're shifting one degree or whatever. Yeah. and were the only thing we did in that situation, pulled out a pack of cigarettes. Yeah, I lit one, I give it to him, I took another one out. and we were just smoking, literally waiting to die, if not die, just be... And the only thing that went through my head was when it lands, I just hope that it kills me outright, you know, or I don't have to see. And Stu said to me, you know, because you carry your own morphine, don't you? So he said to me, look, my morphine's here, Try not to stick it through your thumb. Yeah, yeah. And I said the same. And it never happened. And that was another thing that played in my mind. nothing actually happened but psychologically you know it'd be like someone putting a pistol to my head I thought that was it. Yeah so I've had some good thoughts about this I think it all begins before you even leave because I don't know about you but I wrote letters to all the people that important to me then you've gone through the training about what happened, know, medic training, all sorts. So you're already, and even if you didn't, even if you went on a tour and didn't do a lot, you've still gone through that process of like leaving and maybe not coming back. And I think that maybe isn't understood enough. Yeah, that's it, that's it. Cause you've already prepped yourself. At a young age, ⁓ to try and think of the words that you want to be your last words to your loved ones is hard, isn't it? Yeah, I mean I was 23 and you've basically written your eulogy to people you know by that age. Yeah, yeah. When you actually think about that, you've already prepped your brain. for loss and you're going through all these things and that's completely real. And you know, not just to mention your family at home, mean... Yeah, I mean for them it's even worse. I was married at the time. I know one of the guys, he was on the sat phone to his mum when a mortar round landed not that far away and literally blew him to the other end of the ground whilst he was on the phone to his mum. Yeah, incredibly tough for them because we go through that psychologically, but when we're there, we are present, we? We are just surviving that moment. Life's simple. Yeah. Life's simple, isn't it? So you're there, you've got basically one job. Survival and doing your soldiering job, whatever it is. So mine was point man, yours was fire support, being on patrol. that's all you've got to do, eat, sleep, do some fizz if you can, sometimes, and then fight. There's not a lot else going on and that's why it's quite... I can see why guys went back over and over and over again, because life is a lot more simple there than it is when you come home and you've got... all manner of shit to deal with. Bills, life, car breaking down. Life is And you can just put it to the side and just focus on that. And I do think there's a lot to that as well. Yeah, I It's a simple living in that. and it's traumatizing it is, that feeling, that feeling of adrenaline being in contact, there's something addictive about that, because you'll never feel so alive as what you do in those moments. You may not feel like it at the time, but I remember just... being in contact, almost having like everything slows down. You'd have experienced auditory exclusion, so you can only hear certain things. I mean, the brain is literally remarkable what it does in those scenarios. Short contacts feel like hours. Like I everything slows down, narrow point of vision. Yeah, it's just, it's never- It happened to me. I stepped over a bomb, but because I was so zoned in and in flow, everything slowed down. My brain's like recognising it and there's like screaming at me to stop and I literally look down and I'm like an inch off a pressure plate. And it is because of that heightened adrenaline and I was going into a really hot area, lads have been killed, blown up, all sorts and we were going to be dragging them out. And on my way in, know, some it's on my side, but that is exactly what happens, you know? Like you're literally, everything slowed down, you're hyper aware, you're just trying not to fuck up. Either yourself or your mates. One thing I found interesting about what you said, which I've kind of forgotten about, was that feeling of, I'm not gonna get out of here. Because that is the feeling, all the lads I knew, we were all like, fuck Yeah, yeah, and it particularly there I Think a lot of other guys I talked to yeah, they were in big firefights and things and you know you have that day but but there just felt like the likelihood especially being on patrol with the IED threat and you know you get contacted and you want to like used the bun line for cover, but you can't use the fucking bun line for cover because that's where the IED is going to be and it was just this constant thing of no matter what you do you're up against it. I don't know how you felt but in a weird way after... after so much time there, I almost became okay with it. I was kind of like a piece of it. yeah, 100%. It's like, you know, if it happens, it happens and I'm okay with that. But, you know, just to have that, to go through that in your mind is not normal. know, accepting that you're going to be killed or badly injured. Yeah, and you start playing crazy games like number games like, well he died, the percentage of me now dying is this and you're like, fucking hell. And that's how your brain starts working because you're basically playing roulette every day. It's wild. Wild times, So the main differences then of you being in Sangen and me being in Sangen was the IED threat then I guess. Or the heightened IED threat because I got blown up. about 50 meters outside of Jackson. That's how close they were getting bombs in. I mean, I would guess that after a period of time, they must have just realized that we can't beat them in a kinetic fight. No, you can't scrap, yeah. I mean, they did try and scrap, yeah, but using... they would ambush us, the worst scraps were they would ambush us when we've got casualties so then they would you know come from both sides and try and flank us and all sorts of stuff. But I talked to people about this all the time, I'd do exactly the same if I was them. Yeah of course you would. Yeah, of course you They were not. They were well organised, they were determined enemy and they didn't have the might of the coalition forces behind them. They didn't have fast air, but they still put up a fight. accurate fire, everything. They had Kazi back routes, they had everything. And they knew our SOPs, right? They knew that we took casualty what we were going to do. say about sangin or your tour in afghan? ⁓ We ⁓ came back sangin almost immediately went to Kajaki. Yes, which I know a lot of lads who were there on Herrick 7. ⁓ And so ⁓ for Kajaki, especially September, quite a significant event happened where... ⁓ Mark Wright was killed, two of the lads became lost legs and it was quite a significant incident but it was a completely different deployment for us. We pretty much were manning the guns, a lot of indirect fire. massively mine, I think it one the most heavily mined areas in the world. Old legacy mine fields as well, weren't they, from the Russian times? But yeah, yeah, and then what happened to me, which I think didn't help us, when we left Afghan and... We are, think we overnighted in Kabul and then we went to Cyprus for a period of decompression, a night of decompression. And I randomly, in a weird set of circumstances, my dad, he'd retired from Saudi and he lived in Cyprus and he was about 45 minutes from Bloodhound Camp. So we'd... We'd just come, we'd just landed and I thought, I'm going to ask the Sergeant Major, can only say no. And I said, look, I've not seen my dad for years. I think I'd not seen him for two years at that point. He just recovered from prostate cancer. Is there any way, rather than me go to the beach, I can go and see my dad. And to my surprise, the Sergeant Major said, yeah, I'll get you a driver. We'll drop you off for the night. We'll pick you up in the morning. and I didn't tell my dad. So at the time I had, I mean I'd lost a ridiculous amount of weight. I was chain smoking roll ups. It's hard to imagine now, but I had really long hair, massive sideys, and I was wearing a ripped machine guns t-shirt, and I had these Gulf War I shorts that I'd taken off a dead Taliban fighter. So we had a bag from the killer. I was seeing these shorts and I thought, pretty alley then. So I made them into shorts. Were you pretty essence? I mean, you still are, That was the peak of essences. The driver took me and I knocked on the door. My dad didn't recognize me for a few moments and I had a night in Cyprus with him. And this, was very bizarre because a lot of my childhood was spent on holidays at this exact house in Cyprus. We used to spend the time in Saudi and then every year we'd have a couple of weeks in Cyprus. And so I was walking through these bars with my dad and... Literally 24 to 40 hours earlier, I was fighting the Taliban and now I'm reliving these experiences of my childhood. It's weird, it? And it was almost like I was... It sounds strange now, but... It was almost like I was observing this from a third person perspective. It didn't feel real. I thought this is like a dream. yeah. then I got bird's eye view. Yeah. Yeah. It was a really strange experience. went back the following morning to walk and it was described as an absolute carnage because as you know, blokes put themselves in hospital. They were scrapping. It was just absolute like anarchy for 24 hours. Yeah. We were just naked. flipping tables, destroying everything. Yeah, it just seemed pointless. I mean, maybe it's for a reason to blow off steam, I mean, it really work, it? Yeah, I wonder, think, like, if there was more of a... gradual decompression, would it have helped guys in the long run? don't Probably not. I think maybe the actual reality is you just can't do much other than some gentle integration back into work. But I know for me, as soon as I got back to 40, I was then being sent back to RMR. So within a week, yeah, basically within a week I was back and... down the pub just drinking on my own while my mates were working and they'd come and meet me and just be like, ⁓ so how was it then? Yeah, I'm just like crazy. Yeah. I'm in my hometown just drinking down the pub, kind of trying to process what's actually happened, but you've got no real chance of it. No, your brain must just be like, what is going on? So when you come back then, how'd that go? So yeah, so I had... This is where it starts to get bit weird and a bit dark because I had a whole host of medical, like physical medical issues that just came out of nowhere. I went to South Africa and I was in, know, fit as anything, no issues. I came back and my wife at the time was mithering me about, it was like a freckle I had. Obviously I spent a lot of time in Saudi as a kid. I'm a closet ginger at heart. Even though I love being in the heat, my body is hanging out. In 2021 they diagnosed me with skin cancer, the most aggressive form, malignant melanoma. Didn't know how far it spread, didn't know whether it was terminal or what. and I'd not long got back from Afghanistan, I was 21, and I thought, I've survived all that and now I'm gonna die of cancer. I had a biopsy, then I had an emergency surgery, and they were confident that they'd removed it all. And, I mean, don't get me wrong, this whole period of time was just strange because I'd just had a son, he was born about... So he's born in November, so he's born like a couple of weeks after I got back. So I'm dealing with being now, being a dad. I've now just been told I've got cancer and I'm trying to process what's just gone on. So then I think they've got rid of it. I go back for a second lot of surgery. and they've got rid of it but I'm at high risk. Then I stop pissing blood. So I'm like, right, this isn't right. Automatically my brain goes, well, the cancer spread. know, can't be, that's the only logical thing that's happened. Again, I get sent for a load of different tests and they take a biopsy of my kidney and they diagnose me with an incurable kidney disease. So I honestly thought that because of the things we were involved with out there, it was almost like a final destination feeling. I thought I should have been killed there. And because I wasn't, I'm now going to die of this, painful incurable disease. So I had all that going on and then... Which is a lot. Yeah, it was a lot to deal with at 21. And then I... I was drinking, know, same as you. Alcoholism runs in the family, like, you know, my mum's an alcoholic, I've got memories of her drinking excessively. Yeah, and being abusive. And being abusive. And so it was the only thing I could do to quiet what was going on in my head. And it was a weird feeling because I didn't want to be awake in the day. but I also was too scared to sleep. I was literally scared to go to sleep. And so I got into this really unhealthy routine of drinking, just getting absolutely leathered to the point where I'd pass out. But I just stay awake all night and I'd be listening to music. And then I I felt emotionally like numb. It almost felt like... like dead inside. Just nothing there. Nothing. Yeah, I didn't feel happy. Like grey. I had no feelings. I just had a son. I had no feelings at all about being a dad. I had no feelings about dying really. I was just in this sort of... It's because you've already come to terms with it. Yeah, I'm in this weird like transient state of just numbness. And so in a really perverted way, I thought, well, I need to prove to myself that, you know, I'm still... I still have empathy, I'm still a human being. So I did the only logical thing that anyone would do. I ordered shit loads of videos off the internet of people being executed. Yeah, that's not weird. In like the most barbaric ways imaginable. You know, they were old school like video cassettes from America and it was just video after video of people being... stoned, set on fire, know, manipulate in all kinds of horrendous ways you can think of. And so I thought, right, what I'll do is I'll just watch this and hopefully I'll feel disgusted or I'll feel something. And that will tell me that I'm still human. I'm still present. I didn't feel anything and I'm still drinking. And it was only going to go one way. And yeah, you know, it did, but it did save me at the same time. So one evening, ⁓ we've got my in-laws around and we're drinking, we're just trying to have a nice meal. We're in the married quarter. And I start play fighting with my sister-in-law and... It's all fun and games, you know, where I'm trying to put on a face, trying to show everyone that I'm okay. I think my wife at the time, she knew I wasn't right, but other than the excessive drinking, I was trying to just get by. And we were distracted from the fact that we had a newborn and I didn't know whether I was going to die or not of this disease. And then we were play fighting and... She throws a like a punch at me messing around and it happens to connect with the corner of my eye and I feel pain like like you do if you get hit in the eye you know it was like a sharp sting of pain and then for some reason I don't know why it was almost like a switch went off and all you know months of emotion and rage and everything it just started pouring out of me yeah crying uncontrollably uncontrollably yeah and ⁓ and i you know i was just self-destruct so i just start like leathering myself so i've foot clenched fist i'm just punching myself crying and saying you can't help me you can't help me and ⁓ You know, it's a horrendous thing for them to have to experience. Yeah, traumatising in itself really. Yeah, yeah, and I know it was for them and my brother-in-law, he jumps up from the kitchen table, he rugby tackles me to stop me from being able to hit myself. I fall onto the side of the kitchen top and I look up, I see the handle of a kitchen knife. pull it out of the holder and then in front of my family I'm trying to cut my wrists open. It was horrendous mate, mean it was like some sort of horror story. know luckily I did it, you know weren't successful. I don't know if it was a genuine attempt to take my life, I think it was more of a cry for help and I was just, I didn't know what else to do. It's extreme though isn't it? Yeah, was I mean extreme to the like... to the next level, it? I've had similar, how drunk were you? I wouldn't say I was drunk, I was certainly drunk, but I knew what I was doing. Okay, yeah, so it's a proper physiological response to, yeah, you've just been triggered basically. Yeah, yeah, but it saved me, you know, and she, I went to hospital and then I was... ⁓ one of the guys from Iber2 and he basically stagged on me like on suicide watch and then I ended up going to the med center because I was still in and then that was when I first started seeing a psychologist because I was losing you know is in terms of insanity I was losing the plot I thought I was like hearing things I thought I could like see things in the dark When I think about it now, it's like I was thinking about someone else. That wasn't me, but it was, you know, and I didn't know how to deal with what was going on in my head. Yeah, well you just have no tools. Yeah, I did have... Or what I would say is awareness or even understanding of what was going on, that's all. Yeah, 100%. And ⁓ yeah, and then so I started seeing the psychologist. it probably went on for about a year. It was nothing other than talking, CBT. Yep, journaling. And that one of the key things he did to me, what he did for me was I said to him that it's all a blur, like I can't distinguish when there's an incident where I shot this guy on a bridge, but I was mixed up between that and the Paddy incident and I had to go back through the log. Because your mind's put them together because that situation hasn't gone into the memory part of your brain. Right. I'm just talking out loud. No, no, no. Yeah, it makes But that hasn't gone in there, so it's just a jumbled up, you know, images of what you think has happened because your brain's basically lying to you. in order to stop you from experiencing it. so he said to me, he said, I want you to write down from start to finish what happened. Don't worry about the spelling. You know, can write in crayon if you want to. Try not to eat them. And I did. And that was the very foundation really of what the book ended up being. It helped me hugely. A lot of stuff came up from childhood, you know, I had a lot of issues with, was in households that were plagued with domestic violence, you know, never felt like I was wanted, all that sort of stuff come up. extreme like hyper arousal for bangs, even now, mate, like fireworks and that sort of thing, I can't handle it. And I think your amygdala, it's triggered and it can't distinguish between safety and danger. And so it does what it did on that roof and it's just... Survival. Yeah, it's survival. And then what used to happen historically is I'd have a flashback or a start response. and then there'd be a flood of emotion, know, like all that. And it, you know, don't get me wrong, it still happens occasionally, but it's manageable. And I my triggers. It was decided that the best thing for me would be to leave the military. And it probably was at that point, because the battalion were already gearing up for another deployment. And I don't know whether I would have been a liability to myself and somebody else at that time. But... Yeah, definitely. The other thing was that I thought it was just me. I thought it's just me. I am just weak. Yeah, and do know what? Leaving and having a different plan and I continued to see the psychologist, it helped hugely. Yeah, And that shows... I work with some people who've got complex PTSD as well and... So complex PTSD means that there's two forms of trauma, right? I think people think it means it's complex. It is complex, but it's made up of, normally, of something in the childhood and then something else so that they go together. Because I think people think it means that it's like a complicated, it's not, it's just multiple forms of trauma. And I work with people with similar things. and you've just hit the nail on the head, it can be really simple to understand it. You just need to see someone who understands it. Like you said, mainly it was some CBT and a bit of journaling got you to compartmentalise, ⁓ this is what's actually going on and this is why I'm thinking this way. Because the problem is, is that people with... And it's not always PTSDs. People got all kinds of issues. But unless you understand it and have some form of awareness, it's really hard to sort out. You're not just going to magically sort it out on yourself. You need someone who actually understands it properly. But it can, like for me, the EMDR therapy really helped. stopped the flashbacks and the night terrors. But like you said, you've managed to, we'll be saying maintain it. Yeah. And reduce the level. Yeah, 100 % tap. I mean, we're going back 20 years, but it's, you know, a lifetime of your jar, your cup being filled. But, you know, I'm in a position now, don't get me wrong, I have my, I have bad days like everybody else. The withdrawal hit me quite hard in 2021 when they pulled out that unexpectedly I had a massive dip and I couldn't put my on it. What a shit show. I know. There was how it was done, what we sacrificed in sangin for it to just... I have a different view on it because when I left... I knew Americans that were there who said, it's gone. So I knew Sangin was gone. I could be wrong with the dates two or three years after I left there. And I knew Taliban had that already. So then when it came to 2021 and everyone's like, oh my God, we've lost Afghan. I was like, we already lost Hellman long time ago. It's just that we're never going get told about it. and I knew that, you know, ultimately I knew that would happen eventually, but it just unexpectedly caught me off guard. Of yeah, why wouldn't it? Yeah, all of a sudden it's in your face in the news everywhere. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But yeah, you know, other than that. And I do, like you said about lived experiences, I feel fortunate enough now that... I do a lot of keynote speaking to businesses, not just about trauma, but leadership decision making. But I'm in a position now where I am essentially in charge of eight other people in the emergency services. And we do have young people that come through and they may not have a different kind of trauma, but they might not have seen a deceased body before or... especially the young ones, I feel like I'm that I'm in a position now where I can recognise the indicators and I can say... Because you're lived experience? Yeah, yeah. And say, let's have a chat. How you're feeling now is normal. And these are some of the things that could maybe help you. And if that doesn't help you, I'll signpost you to professionals. To someone that can go that extra mile. So just for the purpose of the podcast, you are now a fireman, right? Yeah. And which I think is a great job. I also think it's a really hard job. And I I think it's great that you've gone into that after having PTSD. think some people would be like, I'm not gonna do something like that because RTAs, all the stuff you, you're in and around could be quite triggering. But I also think that shows a lot of strength and also character from yourself. So you've left the military medically discharged. Yes. Then you would think you would stay away from all this stuff but you didn't. So then what did you go into after this? So I still think I'm so fortunate because you'll be the same. know so many guys that... Being medically discharged, it gave me a chance to start again. know, so many guys that were kicked out and they needed help. You know, they were traumatized individuals and they've got into a scrap downtown. They've been kicked out. They've gone to prison. You know, luckily I had a resettlement program. I didn't have a clue what I was going to do. And the only thing I thought I could do that I was good at was... close protection and at that time, post-Sedam, that industry blew up for lack of a better term and ⁓ so I thought that's what I'm gonna do and I didn't think it didn't have to be hostile environment. You've got your conventional bodyguard and if you like for high net worth people. So I went away and I did a three month course in Hereford and it was... It was one of the most reputable courses at the time for CP, all run by regiment guys. Tough, tough. It weren't an attendance course. Wasn't a buck sheet. Yeah. But at the same time, I applied for loads of different things. I applied for the prison service. I applied for the Met Police and I applied for the security services. So this was ongoing whilst I was doing my course. I nearly went and joined the prison service. I was offered a position at Wormwood Scrubs. I just had a medical to do. And the issue with my kidneys, was, so the prognosis was essentially, eventually at some point in your life, you will have organ failure, but we don't know how long that will be. We will just monitor the deterioration of your kidneys. And, you know, I took some meds and that was pretty much it. Other than that, I lived a normal life. I was very lucky in that I was successful in my application for the security services. good. And went down to TEM's house, had a series of interviews. What course was it? Was it Ronin course or? ⁓ the CP course, no, was, the company were called, I think they're disbanding now, Anubis. I do remember. I was aware of Ronan and they had the South African. I finished the course but then I ended up going to London and working for the security services. I desperately wanted to go into the agent handling side of things but you needed a degree. which I didn't have. The service partly funded me to do a degree. I started a degree in psychology and international terrorism. This time, it was quite unique, so during the Arab Spring, so 2010, Tunisian street vendor, Mohammed was easy. He set himself on fire in protest to government corruption and all the rest of it. That sparked what was to be the Arab Spring and the clothes protection industry blew up and I knew so many guys that were doing that and earning mega bucks on convoys in Iraq. And so I... It was a big decision. The only person that knew what I was doing at the time was my sister. I decided to leave the Crown Service and go into the close protection world. So I had a short period of time where I worked for a Russian family in the capital and then a place came up on a contract in Iraq. So I jumped on with that. Back out and he goes to the Middle East. Yeah, yeah, and it was, yeah, I mean, it was nothing like Iraq. The risk was there, but... A lot less support. A lot less support. Not calling in air if you've got a problem, are you? And yeah, and you're in a team of local nationals that, you know, are vetted to a minimal level and the abilities of that, you know, it's different. its own specific issues, doesn't it? Yes, yeah, that's different. You know, you're carrying an AK-47. It's too classic. Good weapon. It was just an extension. Up to 400 metres. Yeah, maybe not as accurate, but it does the job. And yeah, so did that for, I was on a rotation for years working for an American client. And then... I ended up going freelance. So an opportunity presented itself for me to work directly for companies as a consultant. And it varied from surveillance work both in the UK and abroad. did a period of time ⁓ working undercover for like months at a time. was going to say for people that don't understand this, Andy was doing some pretty Gucci stuff. Some actual sneaky beaky, watching people. It was good, it was... It's intense though, I bet. Yeah, it was intense and it had its... It was difficulties because I was freelance. I'd go through months and months where I'd load a work and it's brilliant You know your contract after contract, but then You know then you're sort of scratching around for bits and pieces of work, and it's good people make a career doing that You know I did it for ten years and then yeah longer than you're in the military yeah, yeah, and it was know it was great and Oh yeah, I was exposed to traumatic incidents nowhere near the level of Afghanistan. More from witnessing the suffering of a civilian population in a war-torn country. Especially Mosul and Syria, the impact of war on them is not great. So, yeah, one of the last gigs I did was in 2014, ISIS pretty much walked through Mosul unchallenged, declared it part of their caliphate. And then in 2016, the Peshmerga ⁓ Kurdish fighters and the Iraqi special forces, they took Mosul back from ISIS, deployed out there with a media team to report on what was going on. Yeah, fantastic. mean, we were going into tunnels where ISIS fighters were there hours earlier. They shaved their beards to blend in with the civilian population to try and escape, you know. And it was dicey because... And I get it from a media point of view, they need to report on the story. But if a Kurdish commander tells them that, ⁓ that village is clear, we cleared it 20 minutes ago, that village is not clear to me. Of course it's not. And there's that balance of risk of they need Would it ever be clear? Yeah. I mean, there was recorded incidents of ISIS fighters hiding in the tunnels and then popping up, or they were booby trapping buildings. So was happy enough to go within a safe distance. but we're not going walking through all the buildings. Yeah, you don't want to be too inquisitive, you? No. Your life's already... I've already on borrowed time. Yeah, it's like me trying not... I try to really be specific in things I do now, because I'm trying to lower the... risk like exposure to risk. I've done some really high level like climbing big trees and like the risk levels are really high. I was in the Marines before. Yeah, that was dicey. I do high altitude mountaineering. I've almost copped it. In terms of hobbies, you that's what I mean. Yeah, but it's the same with that. Like I knew guys in the Marines who just needed to look around that corner. I need to look in that hole. I need to find out what's going on and fucking you know and some of those lads found out the hard way you know. Yeah and it comes with experiences doesn't it? And maturing and yeah and as far as I was concerned that was what I was going to do for a long time. ⁓ one of the companies I worked for, would run in-house courses for NGOs, journalists, government agencies. Brilliant, you know, just two week course cover everything from surveillance maneuvers to pre-hospital care. say again, sorry. And med. Yeah, yeah, yeah. then my kidneys failed over very rapidly. So I knew it was coming. I would be regularly checked, but then I come back from a contract from that deployment. And then over a relatively short period of time, I just like rapidly went downhill. And yeah, to the point where I collapsed, rushed into intensive care and was put on dialysis to keep me alive. So just in time context, we're obviously 2026 now, how long ago was that? So this was at the back end of 2016. Okay. Yeah. I was transplanted in randomly on D-Day 6th of June, 2017. Yeah. Of all the days. Yeah. And the transplant comes from? Yeah, it comes from my sister. Yeah, wild. Yeah. Who looked after you all those years ago. Yeah. Because we don't really have much of a family, but the way I see it, I survived my childhood because of her. If it wouldn't have been for her, I'd have gone into the care system. And all these years later, she saved my life for second time. What a sister. So, yeah, it was incredible, mate. But, you know, I... I'm sure if it was the other way around you wouldn't even question it, would you? Yeah, and it was strange because because McKinney's had failed, the level of toxins in your blood are building up, so essentially you poison yourself for the inside out. And it just felt like the worst bottle hanger you could have, but all the time. But after I was transplanted, I woke up and it almost felt like I was 20 years younger. Really? Yeah, that's mad. It's how I feel now I don't drink. Hangovers, mate. I can't even imagine having one now. How long have you been serving Five years. There's a lot to be said for that, It's unreal. I'm not quite there yet, but... It's not the beer. and end all it's not you quit drinking and and life's just magically better but there's a very strong correlation with me achieving a lot and having quit drinking yeah and also being way better at dealing with PTSD stress anxiety there's a real correlation and that's why I help people quit drinking. you have help with that or did you just decide? No I didn't, I did it my own and I wish that I'd gone to someone like me and just make it make sense, a bit like the PTSD piece because once you actually have a bit of an understanding about why you're drinking and what... because normally drinking's the sticking plaster on the issues, know. Once you work that out, you're like, ⁓ fucking hell. And it's not that simple to quit. It can be a long, awkward process, but going through it is quite transformative, to be fair. I don't miss it at all, and I was a big drinker. I fucking love drinking. So scenarios now where, I don't know, say you go to a function or you go to... night out do you is it more time yeah this is what I mean you tell yourself all these things yeah you think like weddings I've all the weddings I've been too sober I've had great time yeah I used to get in shit like you know drink too much or not want to be there you know like ⁓ just have a drink that'll make me alright like all those things that you tell yourself just weren't true I have stopped doing a lot of things that I used to do. So I used to go to lot of festivals and things, but I drink my way through them. Where really I'm just not that bothered about going to festivals. And then your friendships change a bit. Some got stronger to be fair. I always told myself, well if I stop drinking, my best mates won't want to hang out with me because we all drink together. And they were like, no we'll just hang out and do something else. So I was just lying to myself. I'd never asked them the question. It just turns out they're quite happy going for a run or going to the pub and having zero beers. It's just not the issue. that I made it out to be. Yeah. I wonder whether we tell ourselves that, you know, to make it... ⁓ no, we do. Yeah, to keep it going. Yeah. The other big thing with it is... So I tried over and over and over again, probably five times in a row. The way I did it was I set myself a big goal, was I wanted to do an Ironman. And I knew drinking weren't going to help. And then I stopped drinking. And then within a year, I'd done the Ironman. And I was like, well, okay, well that showed. Because it took me, I wanted to do an Ironman when I come back from Afghan, but I just spent the whole time drinking and then we got close to doing it. I stopped running, I stopped everything. But as soon as I quit drinking, I was able to do an Ironman within a year. And there's no way you'd have achieved that going on the lash or drinking that, I'm assuming. Or the level of training that you would have put in. And then the other big thing was not doing it for someone else, doing it for yourself. So I always used to do it for my former partner. know, I'm this time, I'm going to quit, you know, for you, because to make us better type of thing. and then, but it only takes that other person that you've pinned your quitting drinking on to mess up or not be nice for a day or something for you to go, well, fuck you. I'm supposed to be doing this for you. And it's not their fault, it's yours for pinning it on them, but you need to do it for yourself. If you don't do it for yourself, there'll be some excuse or some reason for you not to see it through. But. One of my questions I've asked people on this is, what is the one thing you've changed in your life that's had the biggest impact? And mine is drink. Me quitting drink made me be able to rationalise all this that we're talking about to understand my childhood and how that affected me. And just whilst I was boozing, there's just that cloud that never enabled me to really fully understand things. So yeah, for me, it's made a big difference. extraordinary mate, huge difference. Yeah and now I've gone on, know, done multiple big mountains, like a lot of big mountains and big races like my recent race is absolutely no way in hell. I would have ever been able to do like 293 miles in the Arctic if I was still boozing on the weekend or... Yeah I suppose as a matter of perspective when you think what would you rather have, you know... you're not going to achieve those things whilst you're doing this. Yeah. You know, is the level of enjoyment you get from having a night out, it, know, what, what, what matters most to you when, where you go in? Yeah. Yeah. And, ⁓ and when you're honest with yourself, I love the pub. still go to the pub. That's fine. Yeah. But fucking hell the next day when I wake up with a fresh head. and other people have got a banging headache. I'm like, yeah, fucking no way am I going back to that. It's that simple for me now. But it is also, of all the things I've done, I think it's the hardest thing I've ever done was quit and drink. because of everything it comes with. So I'd say for people that are thinking about quitting drinking, it's not all like some easy road that just gets better because your life changes in ways that you never ever thought. Like I wouldn't be sitting here with you if I hadn't quit drinking. And you've had a good run at it, you know what mean? Yeah, I've had a fantastic run at Yeah, I was a pro drinker for sure. So you still drink a bit? Yeah, a bit. I do think... Yeah, I do think that without a shadow of doubt, what I want to achieve would be helped by me not drinking at all. So my relationship with alcohol has changed dramatically. That said... You know, are still times, remember Sunday being one of them, where you get a taste for it and then you've got three, four, five days of regret and hating on yourself. That's my Which isn't healthy. But... But interesting what you said about some of the races you've done. So I've now recently discovered ultra running and fell running. And what I have found is that it's nothing on the scale to what you are doing. It's all hard. But yeah, I've got an ultra in the Brecon Beacons coming up. 50k? 50k. Yeah, 50k. I've got a few bits in between there as part of training, like fell running. I've been watching your Strava. It's good, you're a good runner. It's like, fell running is a sport, it's disgusting, but I love it for that reason. It's amazing, for the head and mind and... Yeah, I love the map and compass. There's no path, just see that feature there, go up and down that a few times. I love it. And ⁓ yeah, I do think that is what I need to focus on and having some, you know, long-term goal. And what I've found is by having something to train for, As a result of that, drinking's been drastically reduced to nearly nothing. Because you've got a goal, and that's what I mean by having a goal. But I do think it'd benefit from just stopping, and that would, I know that would be incredibly hard, but not unachievable. Would it be incredibly hard because you pin a lot of your identity to it? Yeah, oh, yeah, without a shadow of a doubt. without a shadow of doubt and you almost don't, like most of us, start drinking when you join the military, you almost don't know a scenario where you are out and you're not drinking, because you've always done it. And the culture we come from, the drink culture in the military. So, and when you lay it out, Where is it you're going and what is it you want to achieve? The answer is right there for you, if that's holding you back. Yeah, it's what's important to you. And what's important to you isn't the things that it used to be. It's changed, isn't it? And that's why you're starting to question whether alcohol lives in your life, isn't it? And then becomes the performance piece, like how do you want to... Do you want to be this guy or do you want to be the guy that crushes the ultra? Yeah, yeah. That's the difference. And the other thing is I don't want to get to an age where I think, imagine what you could have done if you weren't hungover. Because for me, it's not the next day. ⁓ I can pretty much go in on a night out and I'll feel fine. But my ⁓ level of productiveness, my sleep, So I might have a few days where I don't do anything as opposed to getting up early and actually, you know, it might mean eating bad food or missing a training session. just has a massive effect. Yeah, has an accumulative effect. Yeah, that is the, that's the big thing we're drinking is it's not the next day. It's all the things that happen, the eating bad. especially if you're trying to do... So obviously I'm a little bit interested in ultras and stuff and I had a massive ⁓ break. I've only been running again for last three years or so. But I used to be a good runner so it's kind of slowly coming back. I'm nowhere near as quick as I used to be but I can still put out like... long distances. Yeah you've got it, it's in there. It's all in here yeah, it's in here yeah. But you know I DNF'd 200 milers last year, I had a terrible time with lower back injury and I was you know being silly and still trying to do stuff and I shouldn't have, I should have just rested. So you've got that 50k, when's that? Yeah, so end of July. It's in the Brecon Beacon, so it's hilly. ⁓ But yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. I've got a couple of, I the fell runs, so if I see one I'm off work, I'll book on to it. do it, yeah. Yeah, that's what I want to start doing more locally. And I love that you just, I'm ideally located where, you know, a couple of hours I can be in the lakes or in Breck, in Snowdon. But I love the simplicity of just rocking up. Just going for a run. It's a couple of quid. There's normally cake at the end, which always helps. You need to keep me in the loop if there's any races, because I need to be able to find more local races. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. I need to get the misses on it, because I'm not that... There's so much going on. Every time we go walking nearby, there's normally a race on. And I'm like, I would have just done it if I'd known. Yeah, it's just being informed, isn't it? Especially where you are. Yeah. So long, what about long-term then? Where do you see yourself? Well, I can see, I do really like ultras. If I can stay injury free and my body allows me to, I feel... So I did the fan dance this weekend, raising money for Blind Veterans UK. Decided to carry a 40 kilo log on the selection route. As a team but... And that was with Chris wasn't it? Yeah, Chris was on that. So I love those sort of events. It gives me something to focus on. So more of that sort of thing. Brilliant. I'd like to go bigger scale, but one day at a time for me. How old are you? 40. 40, all right. Yeah, I'd love to look at something bigger. yeah, for me that is the way and I'll continue doing my keynote speaking for businesses. Yeah, brilliant. think if people buy into a lived experience it doesn't matter you know it could be anybody from our generation of being in that in the military at that time more than happy to talk about it. And I love what I'm doing now with the Fire. It's a fantastic career. It's almost like being in a section again. Yeah, I was gonna say, so the Fire service, although obviously with your PTSD background stuff, like I was saying, I think it's great that you've gone into that, but it also gives you a lot of what you had before, doesn't it? A camaraderie, purpose, a little bit of like... It's exciting, can be exciting. So yeah, it ticks a lot of boxes, doesn't it? And it was your missus that said you should do it, wasn't it? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Listen to the missus. Yeah, always. Yeah, it was just after a year after I was transplanted. I wasn't going to go back to working in the Middle East. and she said, why don't you consider this? was fortunate enough that they were recruiting and that I was able to get in. yeah, it ticks a lot of boxes. I think that sense of belonging to something, you know, that helps a lot. I sold my tree company four or five years ago, something like that, when I quit drinking. And I suffered, I didn't... I had a load of guys working with me, some ex-paros, a really good mate of mine, a load of good lads, my brothers, all sorts, and we had a really amazing team. I sold the company, and then the next day it dawned on me that that was why it was there. It was because of the group I had around me all the time, and now all of sudden I wasn't working with them all the time. And I didn't think enough about that. and how to transition. ⁓ We had a good six months, a year, before it happened. So we had done things all together for the end and stuff like that. So we had tried to do what we could, but it had more of an effect on me than I thought it ever would. So that piece of being in your tribe and with people and working together, I think is really important. And like you said, it can be... know, guys from the Corps, guys that are into climbing, you know, having that social unit. So I've come back from this event the last few days. So great to be around like-minded people. Everyone's on their different paths. We've also learned that you can't always help everybody. definitely can't. As you all know, it is... it takes a lot from you as well. It takes a lot from you as much as you want to try and help as many people as you can. But yeah, it's important in that sense of belonging. Yeah. Is there anything you know now that you wish you knew then? Then as in? When you're in the military. If I knew now, well... I prioritise self-care bit more now, while I do a lot. So the small habits that I do every day. Like most veterans, I have my quirks and I know I do. I could be... socially awkward in a group environment and I like things a certain way but I know that if I smash a bit of fizz in the morning, know, cold, big fan of cold showers or cold water exposure, I've been putting the right foods in my body and sleep is a massive one, like I would, you're prioritised sleep. I'm just so much more of a better person well-rounded. It's going to put me in a position to when things do go wrong, which they inevitably do, to handle that better and it not to So doing the simple things consistently. Yeah. Fair one. Yeah. Same. Yeah. think moderation. for me would have just been key. If I could have just moderated the booze when I was younger, I think things would have worked out quicker. I think things worked out the way they were supposed to regardless, yeah, moderation for me. And that piece that I normally ask people, what's one thing that you've changed that's made the biggest difference to your life? One thing that I've changed from what from life as in from when I was in the military this Just one thing you've changed in your life. That's had the biggest impact So for me it was booze so quitting the booze just fucking transformed everything. Is there anything you've changed probably writing? Writing yeah journaling. I'd recommend it for anybody. That was the reason obviously the book came out of it. I Like so many of us we live our lives at such a pace And we're all in the same position. We all have bills to pay, we have a career, we have family and friends. For me, even just a few lines of journaling, it helps offload that what's going on in your head. And it's something I didn't do when I was in, but every day now I'll try and a lot of the time it's just gibberish, but it helps. Yeah, but sometimes the act of doing it that matters more than what you've written down, doesn't it? Yeah, I'd recommend it to anyone. Yeah, that's a great answer. And especially for, I set up this podcast to help my clients and a lot of ⁓ people I work with are like, ⁓ I just don't want to write. So it's good hearing it from someone who actually you never used to write and now you, written a book and the book's great as well. Like the book's genuinely brilliant. Appreciate your sense of Yeah, it reads really well. I've read, as you asked, I've been reading a lot of books. So it is a really great book. So where can people find your book? Because it is a great story. Yeah, so Amazon or Audible, it's paperback hard. It's in all different formats. I self-published it. yeah, Amazon. I've got a website beyond the drop. So yeah, it's all in Yeah, because you've got that, the Velcro patch. Yeah, yeah, there's merch. Merch, merch, a little bit. Andy's got merch, I love it. So yeah, I can't help myself, know, kit, alley, clothing. yeah, cheers. Excellent. And anything else you want to add? Just thanks for having me on. Absolute pleasure. Yeah, genuinely. And for me, I've been really looking forward to it because it's just sitting down with someone who's been to Sangen. Just because I don't meet that many people who've actually experienced similar to what I have. Like we said, it's an exclusive club. It is an exclusive club and if you came back, you were lucky. And if you came back and still survived after that, you were lucky. So, yeah, thanks Andy. Thank you, Thank you. mate. Legend. Appreciate it. You good? Yeah, good, yeah. recording, did it go as you? Yeah, I think so.