Latest / I Used To Be Crap At Sales / The Two Silent Killers Destroying Sales Careers (And How To Beat Them) | EP25 | Jessica Williams

Transcript

The Two Silent Killers Destroying Sales Careers (And How To Beat Them) | EP25 | Jessica Williams · I Used To Be Crap At Sales

0:00
Mark Ackers: Hi everyone. Here's what's coming up in today's
0:02
episode. My guest started out in banking, selling mortgages and
0:06
managing high net worth clients. Spent over a decade in corporate
0:10
sales and boardrooms before making the leap in 2015 to start
0:14
their own business. Since then, they've also trained over 5000
0:18
people and run and host the SME conference, an event I'm very
0:21
much looking forward to speaking at, and is about to begin a
0:24
doctorate focused on making sales a more ethical and
0:28
sustainable profession. My guest today is Jessica Williams, did
0:32
you used to be crap at sales? Yes. How crap are we talking on
0:36
a scale of one to 10?
0:37
Honestly, I think like a one, sometimes I have let my facial
0:41
expressions get the better of me, and sometimes my facial
0:45
expressions say far more than I should really. They describe me
0:49
as raw. So I'm not sure whether that was a compliment or what,
0:52
but I'm from Yorkshire, so I'm renowned of saying it as it is.
0:56
We've spoken about two of the biggest killers in the sales
0:59
profession. Is need for approval and imposter syndrome. I was
1:02
thinking, Who the hell am I to do all of this? Who the hell am
1:04
I to be able to, you know, to hold these positions. And I let
1:08
that get inside my head. You said I had to do something about
1:11
it. What did you do? 75% of that is here. And if you don't get
1:15
that sorted, it's a really dark place to be. I got to the point
1:19
where I was doing all of that and nothing was making a
1:22
difference. I was like, Okay, our perception, which isn't
1:24
reality of how successful someone else has been or what
1:27
they're doing. And I think that can be a really, really negative
1:30
trait, and I think it's easy to get sucked into that we're
1:33
responsible to turn ourselves around.
1:34
If you were to start again today, what's the one thing you
1:38
do differently to accelerate your journey.
1:46
Hello and welcome to another episode of The I used to be crap
1:49
at sales Podcast. I'm Mark Akers, your host, the co founder
1:52
and Head of Sales here at my sales coach, you'll know the
1:56
crack Buy Now this podcast is where we cut through the noise
2:00
and the glossy headlines and get into the messy truth about
2:03
building a sales career that actually works, my guest today
2:07
has very much lived that journey. My guest started out in
2:11
banking, selling mortgages and managing high net worth clients.
2:14
Spent over a decade in corporate sales and boardrooms before
2:18
making the leap in 2015 to start their own business. Just
2:22
Williams, a hybrid sales and marketing agency built on
2:25
relationships, not gimmicks. Since then, they've also trained
2:29
over 5000 people and run and host the SME conference, an
2:32
event I'm very much looking forward to speaking at in
2:36
October this year. They also sit on multiple boards. Is a fellow
2:40
at Northumbria University and is about to begin a doctorate
2:43
focused on making sales a more ethical and sustainable
2:47
profession. Personally, they're also an avid runner and outdoor
2:51
explorer who's completed 13 marathons, including Ultras,
2:54
helping to raise over 50,000 pounds for charities to date,
2:58
and a mantra, business can and should be a force for good. My
3:02
guest today is Jessica Williams, Jessica, welcome to the studio.
3:06
How are you?
3:06
Jessica Williams: I'm very well. I mean pressure after that
3:08
introduction, right? Do you know what? I get a lot of good
3:12
feedback on the intros. I do work hard on them. That's very
3:13
impressive. Honestly, I feel like you should be my voice over
3:15
from now on. Can you rewrite my LinkedIn profile please?
3:18
Mark Ackers: We can discuss that. Yeah, absolutely. Jessica,
3:19
thanks so much for coming to studio. We've had many in person
3:24
podcasts, but for a while, there's been a number of online.
3:26
So it's great to have someone back in the studio and sat in
3:29
the orange chairs. Chairs you claim to be very comfortable.
3:31
Honestly, they're super comfy, and now I know where they're
3:34
from. Thanks to your colleagues, I may purchase one.
3:37
So we always start of a yes, no question. Jessica Williams, did
3:40
you used to be crap at sales? Yes. How crap are we talking on
3:43
a scale of one to 10?
3:45
Well, honestly, I think, like a one, I think I was pretty bad.
3:45
Okay, maybe a two, one of the things I always like to ask
3:49
I've always loved chatting to people, but I don't think I
3:53
understood the importance of the closing. Ironically, right? So
3:57
maybe a two?
4:00
guests, because I've got so many I can think of personally. But
4:03
if you just reflect back on your career, is there a particular
4:06
like Howler of a mistake that you've made that's really bitten
4:09
you that you could share?
4:11
This a funny story. I'm definitely quite I was
4:13
described. Actually, I did a keynote on Friday, and I asked
4:16
them why they asked, you know, they asked me, and apparently
4:19
they described me as raw. So I'm not sure whether that was a
4:22
compliment or what, but I'm from Yorkshire, so I'm renowned of
4:25
saying it as it is, and sometimes I have let my facial
4:30
expressions get the better of me, okay? And sometimes my
4:34
facial expressions say far more than I should really. So
4:38
definitely I've kind of been seen wincing, kind of in
4:42
meetings and kind of go, you know, in quite a lot of
4:45
situations, I am better at controlling my facial
4:48
expressions now and not saying what I think as much. So I think
4:52
there's quite a few times where, yeah, I've probably either said
4:55
the wrong thing and been very, very direct, or my facial
4:58
expressions have indicated.
4:59
Stated absolutely how I'm feeling, even though my body
5:02
language was pretty much kind of contained, sent wrong, you know,
5:05
sent wrong emails. I did have a situation where I signed off an
5:10
email remarkably inappropriately, by accident,
5:13
using very inappropriate word. And yeah, I didn't, didn't hear
5:16
from that prospect again. Or what did you use? It was, it was
5:20
not a good word.
5:20
So let's start early in your career. You started financial
5:24
services, mortgages, private banking, advising high net worth
5:28
clients at Yorkshire bank. How did you first get into sales?
5:31
Was that by design or was that by accident?
5:33
going to be very, very honest here with you. So I was a little
5:36
bit naughty at school and got kicked out, much to my parents'
5:40
dismay. So I was very fortunate to go to an all private girls
5:44
school, and my parents, I think, had much higher hopes for me
5:48
than perhaps I yeah, I believed in and yeah, I had a pretty,
5:52
pretty, pretty rubbish childhood, to be honest with
5:56
you, for lots of different reasons, and I'll come on to
5:56
that in a minute. But in essence, I left school after
6:00
GCSEs, not on a voluntary basis, and start, kind of didn't really
6:05
know what to do. And that's how I ended up joining the bank,
6:08
because it was kind of a part time cashier role. You know, I
6:11
literally started as a cashier at the Yorkshire bank in
6:15
Sheffield and worked kind of my way up the ladder, and realised
6:19
pretty quickly that I enjoyed interacting with people and got
6:23
into kind of a pretty, pretty much a sales role within two
6:26
years. So talks about the weight of expectations of parents, I
6:29
suppose, for context, what did your parents do for a living? So
6:32
my parents are separated when I was young. My dad ran his own
6:37
very successful and still has a very remarkably successful
6:41
business, and my mum and stepdad ran a leisure business called
6:46
just Williams leisure. You'll see where the link goes now. So
6:49
both of my parents run their own businesses. I had a pretty,
6:52
pretty rubbish childhood. My little brother died when he was
6:54
seven years old. Sorry to bring the tone down, but that's one of
6:57
the reasons it's called just Williams is named after him, and
7:00
that drove me, but it did put a lot of pressure on me, a huge
7:03
amount of pressure, and I probably put quite a lot of
7:05
pressure on myself to succeed as well. And I think also that's
7:08
why I learned very quickly. And it's something that concerns me
7:13
about, you know, the generations that followed me, is that
7:16
ability to communicate with anybody. So from being very
7:19
young, because my little brother was you, was was ill, I
7:22
interacted with adults, left, right and centre in lots of
7:25
different contexts, in lots of different ways. So I learned how
7:27
to communicate.
7:28
I suppose just you referred him as your little brother. How old
7:32
were you?
7:32
I was 13 when he died, right? And he was seven when he died.
7:35
And so you're having conversations with adults as a
7:38
13 year old, about right, okay, yeah, from even younger than
7:42
that as well. So, you know, I think it taught me how to
7:45
converse. It really shaped the rest of my life, not, I'm not,
7:49
you know, I don't believe in playing the victim in any way,
7:51
but it shaped the rest of my life in terms of my drive, in
7:53
terms of my ability to communicate with people, and
7:57
probably led me directly to my to my path to sales. I can
8:00
totally understand what you're saying in a sense of
8:03
communication, and learn to communicate with different
8:06
people. And the skill that that really teaches you in because
8:11
that's what it is in sales, is the ability to speak to
8:14
different people at different levels, at different times, and
8:14
alter how you communicate. So I think learning that at a young
8:18
age, I can see how that's really helped in the career you're in
8:21
today. So you've got two parents that have got their own
8:23
successful businesses. They they obviously want the very best
8:27
you, like any parent would what, what career did they want for
8:30
you? So I think they wanted me to go into the legal profession.
8:34
So I remember, though, did you do like careers, like one of
8:38
these weird assessments? So I did one. I did one. I remember
8:41
it came out I was going to be like a florist or a beautician.
8:44
I don't know what I answered, but yeah, I think there was a
8:48
there was a lofty sense that actually, I would probably be in
8:52
the legal profession. Ironically, my grandpa and my
8:55
mum's side set up the, what was then the Institute of sales and
8:59
marketing in Yorkshire, so he kind of led that. So a lot of my
9:02
and my dad's in sales, so, you know. And I think being your
9:05
own, running your own business, everyone's in sales, right? So I
9:09
think it was kind of natural to me to kind of fall into that.
9:12
Maybe, yeah, I can see why we pull towards that. And we've had
9:15
a lot of guests talk about their parents being in sales, them
9:19
overhearing sales conversations, understanding about commission
9:22
and what that leads to, etc. I suppose it's interesting.
9:23
Therefore, if your parents, when you go in the legal route, and
9:23
then you've gone down the sales route, sometimes that can be
9:24
difficult. And I've spoken about that, almost being a little bit
9:32
embarrassed to tell my parents I'm in sales and I make cold
9:35
calls. Did you have that feeling or not as such? Because
9:38
Absolutely. And it's like, well, I was in banking, wasn't I for
9:40
11 years so, and then I think my grandma, God, rest her soul. She
9:45
passed away last year, but she definitely told everyone I had a
9:47
PR company, even though I've had it for like 10 years. So, yeah,
9:52
I think there's, you know, my dad gets it. I think, I think
9:55
they both get it, really. But, you know, I think there's a lot
9:57
of people that still have that negative association.
10:00
From a sales perspective, I think the fact that it's my own
10:02
company obviously has helped enormously. I named it obviously
10:05
after their business in legacy to them and my little brother so
10:09
but, yeah, but I do think there is still such a negative
10:12
association with sales.
10:14
I'm always conscious when we talk about something, what I'm
10:16
about to say now, people listening to this podcast will
10:19
be the same as us, because they're listening to sales
10:22
podcast. They want to improve, they want to learn. But really,
10:26
we can all be guilty of thinking the profession and the image of
10:29
possession is changing. It's not it's just our bubble. And like,
10:32
do you think it's changing a bit, though, if you go and ask
10:35
the average person on the street what they think of a sales
10:37
person, there is still a negative association, isn't
10:40
that? Yeah, I think it's just our bubble, our network, who we
10:42
hang out with. And like I say, people listen to this podcast
10:45
will be of the similar mantra, and you can just be guilty of
10:47
thinking the profession's getting better. It's just who we
10:51
interact with. So we're in banking. You worked there during
10:56
the 2008 credit crunch. What was that like?
10:59
Really challenging. And I think that was a really, without
11:01
sounding cliche, a really big shift in my career and my
11:05
mentality. And you know, I understood and I loved working
11:08
in that industry at a very challenging time. But it became
11:12
very apparent that relationships were really, really important to
11:15
me. And actually I developed some amazing relationships with
11:18
with with my clients, but because of, obviously, the
11:21
nature of what was happening in, you know, in the crash, that we
11:26
were being forced to make decisions that were based on,
11:28
not the relationships that we had, but in essence, the the
11:32
industries that that these organisations were in. And I
11:35
think, you know, that was, I found that really challenging.
11:38
We had to make some really, you know, we were, as an
11:41
organisation, we were massively overly exposed in certain
11:44
markets. So, you know, we had to, you know, my expertise was
11:47
in the in the property side of things. So, you know, we had to
11:50
make some really tough calls. It did, however, shift me, my
11:53
mindset massively to realise that just because you run a well
11:59
performing business, and it might otherwise poor performing
12:02
sector. It absolutely is all about the individual. And for
12:05
me, it was kind of the turning point in terms of thinking. For
12:08
me, it is about, you know, the integrity of the individual
12:10
running that organisation, not necessarily the sector they're
12:13
in. So, you know, it was a bit of a shifting moment. And, you
12:16
know, it was clear that there was a lack of investment in the
12:19
market, for the industry, well, for the for the organisation I
12:21
was working for, and it was at that time, or just after that, I
12:25
started doing a lot of work on a corporate social responsibility
12:29
basis for the bank, and made connections with the
12:32
entrepreneurs forum and started our kind of outreach in that
12:35
field. So that was kind of the turning point that made me
12:38
really think about my future career and where it was going.
12:40
Because it wasn't about relationship, it was about
12:43
ticking a box, and it was about a sector. And that didn't sit
12:46
well with me at all. Why not? Because actually, for me,
12:48
everything is about relationships. You know, I'm a
12:50
massive, massive advocate for, you know, the key factors that
12:54
make up a really strong relationship in business or or
12:56
personally. And you know, it was about the fact that, you know,
13:02
the, you know, obviously change happened in a market. I
13:05
absolutely get that, but it was the it was the fact that, you
13:08
know, the relationships that we had, that I had with my clients,
13:11
etc, were really being tested and compromised. And it wasn't
13:15
necessarily something that I fully believed in at the time.
13:17
So I really struggled with
13:18
that. And when you talk about relationship and it matters. I
13:21
think anyone listening will go, of course, having great
13:24
relationships is only a good thing. What do you define as a
13:28
great relationship with your customers versus perhaps what
13:32
someone's standard definition might be? Well,
13:34
and I suppose it's semantics, really, isn't it? Everyone will
13:36
have a different definition for me. You know, we as an
13:40
organisation stand for years, and our business as a force for
13:43
good. So, you know, for me, it is important to have that
13:45
alignment of values, and I don't mean that in a fluffy sense at
13:48
all, is you've got to have a similar outlook to a certain
13:51
extent. You've got to have that trust there. You've got to have
13:54
that openness. I think that's really, really important, and
13:57
that ability to be able to communicate openly, that's
14:00
really, really important integrity is, you know, hugely
14:02
important. And I think, you know, are you working towards a
14:06
common goal, you know, so from a business perspective or a
14:09
personal perspective, is, what are you trying to achieve
14:11
together? And so for me, the kind of relationship aspect is,
14:15
is a really kind of key FOSS to my business and who I am as a
14:19
person.
14:19
And I can, I can I can tell that by the way you've answered the
14:21
question. What was really interesting is you use the word
14:24
Trust. And I think if you don't have trust, yeah, anything
14:28
exactly, but what you didn't use was the words or or leaning
14:32
towards like, being liked or being loved. It's about trust.
14:35
It's about working together. It's about a common goal. And
14:38
one of the things I've seen throughout my career is sales
14:41
people struggle with the need to be liked, the need for approval,
14:46
and that is around, you know, I want my customers and prospects
14:49
to like me, to love me. I want to get but as I say, You didn't
14:52
mention that. You mentioned about trust, and do you walk
14:54
that line quite well where, obviously you want to be liked,
14:57
right? You don't want to not be liked by your kind. Lessons, but
15:00
trust feels like basically what you're saying, very
15:03
literally, about two weeks ago, finished the book The Art of
15:07
being disliked. Literally, two weeks ago, I was smiling
15:11
because, yeah, I mean, I think notoriously, if you you know, I
15:15
don't know what the statistics are, but I think a lot of us are
15:17
more people pleasers tendencies than we like to think. And I
15:21
think sales people, you know, we have that, I'm generalising, a
15:24
lot of us have that constant need for gratification, and, you
15:28
know, being satisfied and getting the return that we're
15:31
looking for. But I do think, you know, I, I run a business, you
15:35
know, I can't, I can't be liked all the time. I don't want to be
15:39
disliked, but I don't necessarily have a need to be
15:42
liked. And I think that's a really difficult line and
15:44
something to say out loud, because I think people's
15:46
perception of you, when you say that's like, Oh, you're
15:48
arrogant, isn't it, though, if you say, Well, I don't need to
15:51
be liked, that's like, well, what? You're arrogant. And it's
15:53
not about that. It's about, you know, I'm very I'm very driven,
15:56
I'm very focused, and so for me, it's about, I'm here to achieve
16:00
what I need to achieve. Now that's on a relationship based
16:03
approach, but it's results driven ultimately. So, you know,
16:06
am I? Is everyone gonna like me? Absolutely not. And I know
16:09
there's lots of people out there that don't I'm pretty much like
16:11
Marmite because I say it as it is, but you know, that's okay.
16:15
And how long have you been like that, of that mindset where you
16:18
don't need to be liked
16:19
probably, I mean, my business has been going. We turned 10
16:23
earlier on this year, so I think that took a long time.
16:26
Realistically, I think it's probably only in the last few
16:28
years. And as I say, you know, I'm really conscious. I feel
16:30
like quite conscious saying it out loud, because I feel like it
16:33
sounds really arrogant. And it's not about arrogance. It's, you
16:35
know, the key thing that I've learned over the last few years.
16:38
And again, I'm not suggesting I'm perfect in any way, but it's
16:41
about setting boundaries. You know, for me, about, you know,
16:44
I'm very purpose driven. I'm very goal driven. I'm very
16:47
focused, and not all the time. By the way, I had some great
16:51
white wine on Friday night, and that was not focused. But, you
16:53
know, I'm, I'm very clear about what I need to achieve, and I
16:56
think it's taken me a long time to appreciate that. Actually, I
16:58
don't need to please everybody, and I don't need to be, you
17:01
know, everyone's best friend. And I actually can be
17:03
controversial. That's who I'm. It's taken me a long time to
17:06
kind of the word authentic is totally overused, I think, but I
17:09
am myself now, and I say it as it is. And maybe I don't know,
17:14
I've earned the right to do that. Maybe I've just, you know,
17:17
you know, I've got to an age where I can, maybe I'm more
17:20
caught. I don't know what it is, Mark honestly like, but I think
17:23
it's not that I'm arrogant. I feel like I'm justifying it now
17:26
because it is. It's a strange thing to say, but, you know, I'm
17:29
pretty confident in who I am. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but
17:33
I don't need people to love me or like me anymore like I used
17:36
to.
17:36
I think what's interesting is, how did you realise that you
17:39
needed to make that shift? Did someone point it out to you, or
17:42
was there a moment when you thought, I'm being a people
17:45
pleaser here?
17:45
I had a couple of tough situations that I was part of
17:49
for a long time, and had a really tough time about three,
17:52
four years ago, which, as I said, I've never really talked
17:55
about. Ironically, I was doing a keynote on Friday, and I talked
17:57
about my journey for the first time, like my personal journey,
17:59
because I can talk about sales and marketing till the time till
18:02
the guys come home. Till the cars come home, but I've never
18:04
really talked about my journey, and I said it then, you know.
18:06
And I think it was a real shift for me that I made a conscious
18:11
decision that you can't exert your energy trying to keep
18:14
everyone else happy to your own detriment, you know. And I use
18:18
the example of Christmas, right? Sorry to say the word Christmas,
18:21
but, you know, and you just like, you just try and keep
18:23
everyone else happy, and you're like, the only person that's
18:25
unhappy is yourself. You know, I think you get to a point where
18:29
you have to have really clear boundaries. You have to be
18:32
confident in your own ability. You know, you have to be able to
18:35
back that up from a credibility perspective. I'm not just saying
18:38
everyone's confident in their own ability, but I think it is
18:40
easy to get consumed by other people's your perception of
18:46
other people's perception. Does that make sense? Right? And I
18:49
think the way that social media is now is that we just scroll
18:52
and we scroll and we scroll. And there is a real issue with
18:56
looking at how everyone else lives their life and our
18:58
perception, which isn't reality of how successful someone else
19:01
has been or what they're doing. And I think that can be a
19:04
really, really negative trait, and I think it's easy to get
19:07
sucked into that. And so I'm not saying I'm perfect in any way,
19:10
shape or form, but I'm very, very conscious decision to set
19:14
boundaries and to not let that affect me as much as it used to.
19:17
And you
19:17
spoke about having, like, a couple of tough moments. Were
19:19
they like professional moments with clients,
19:22
perhaps in a few of the different roles that I, that I,
19:26
that I was part of at the time, right?
19:28
Okay? And I mean, you are, you're very busy, you're in lots
19:31
of different roles and non exec positions, etc. So again, share
19:34
only what you're comfortable with, but you had situations
19:36
where maybe being a people pleaser has affected you, and
19:39
you've had to sort of stand up and disconnect from if they like
19:42
you or not, because that's not going to serve well for either
19:45
party. Yeah, so maybe slightly controversial. So I've
19:49
definitely been appointed for the wrong reasons to some of the
19:52
situations or some of the organisations I've been
19:54
appointed to. And I don't say that lightly, I obviously have a
19:58
lot of NDAs in play. So I'm going to be very cautious in
20:02
terms of what I say, but I put a massive expectation against
20:05
myself, and also I was appointed for the wrong reasons. So, you
20:09
know, I think the pressure that that kind of accumulated to get
20:12
there to result in a situation where I actually stepped down
20:16
from everything I did four years ago. So, you know, I think it
20:20
was very much of, again, I'm not a massive fan of the word
20:23
imposter syndrome, but I definitely had something if that
20:26
was the case. And I was thinking, Who the hell am I to
20:28
do all of this? Who the hell am I to be able to, you know, to
20:31
hold these positions and I let that get inside my head, and
20:35
that's a really, really dangerous situation if you let
20:38
those things get inside your head, and if you listen, and if
20:40
you see all that scrolling that you do, if you let it get inside
20:43
your head, it is only a downward spiral, or it certainly was for
20:46
me. And so, you know, that was quite a journey to recovery for
20:49
me in terms of getting back on my feet, and I made it. That's
20:52
where kind of boundaries come in. I was like, right? I know
20:55
what I need, you know, I think for the first time in my life,
20:58
certainly in the last two years, I know what I need to preserve
21:01
my energy. I know what I need to stay focused. I know what I need
21:04
to kind of achieve, what I need to do. And you know, I do have
21:07
lots of things on but I'm very cautious and very protective of
21:10
my time. And you know, I spend time with people that I choose
21:14
to spend time with
21:15
them, sales leaders. I guarantee this, the forecast you're
21:18
looking at isn't accurate. Why? Because your reps have deals
21:23
that become stuck in the pipeline, things like champion
21:26
leaving not being taken to power. Competitor enters the
21:30
deal at the last minute. They're ghosting. You imagine if your
21:33
reps had access on demand to support where they could get one
21:37
to one deal coaching with one of our expert coaches. That's what
21:41
we provide your reps. Can use it proactively. Perhaps they've got
21:45
a meeting coming up and they want to ensure they're putting
21:48
their best foot forward. They can book time with a coach and
21:50
prepare for that upcoming meeting. Or perhaps it's
21:53
reactively. There's a snag, there's a last minute problem.
21:56
They need help moving an opportunity forward. They can
21:59
book same day coaching with one of our expert sales coaches and
22:03
get help deal coaching gives your reps every opportunity to
22:07
secure the best outcome and keep your forecast as accurate as
22:11
possible. So it's interesting. You hit up on imposter syndrome
22:17
there, and I think we've spoken about two of the biggest killers
22:21
in the sales profession is need for approval and imposter
22:24
syndrome. And I think it's really important to say, as far
22:27
as I'm aware, in terms of my experience and the time that
22:31
I've spent in this industries, everyone has that, yeah, I agree
22:34
to a different level in terms of need for approval. There was a
22:38
research done by objective Management Group. We actually
22:41
used their evaluations at my sales coach, and the need for
22:46
approval was the number one thing that separated elite sales
22:50
people to low and average performers. Need for approval
22:53
from whom the prospect okay, that need for I don't want to
22:57
ask tough questions, I don't want to challenge, I don't want
23:00
to push, I don't want to consult. I'm worried about
23:02
upsetting them. I'm worried about losing the sale when they
23:06
haven't got anything to lose at this stage. It's interesting.
23:08
But then there's that imposter syndrome, because all too often,
23:12
sales people are selling to someone in a more senior
23:16
position, in a role they've not done, perhaps in an industry
23:19
they've never worked in. And you can have that imposter syndrome,
23:22
you know? And everyone suffers from that, but it's when you
23:25
understand that that's what's happening, and you work on it,
23:28
you can start to overcome it. It sounds like you've come out the
23:30
other side. And I
23:31
don't think you appreciate when you're in it, that you're in it.
23:34
No, it's like the power of reflection, isn't it? Is? You
23:36
can say, God, you're absolutely, that was totally, and you can
23:38
give it that label, but actually, when you're in it, you
23:41
don't see it, and that's the danger. And it's, how about, how
23:44
do we ensure that people don't get in that vicious cycle?
23:47
Because I think when you get to the bottom, it's too late. I
23:49
mean,
23:49
in some ways, I think you almost have to experience it to it's
23:52
like, it's like a rite of passage, in some ways, but you
23:55
don't know what you don't know. And until someone points it out
23:58
to you, you can't start to work on it, and it sounds like you
24:03
had your own journey. Who's helped you through imposter
24:06
syndrome, through need for approval.
24:07
See, I would agree and disagree with that. So I think self
24:10
awareness is one of the most important aspects of the only
24:12
person in sales. So from a characteristics like EQ and
24:15
sales, self awareness as part of EQ is like one of the most
24:19
important aspects. So for me, that is, like, almost one of the
24:21
top things that I recruit for is that level of self awareness.
24:24
Because actually it's you. You have to be able to spot it in
24:27
yourself. So yes, other people can that can be there, and you
24:30
can have coaches, mentors, and, you know, you can go to
24:33
conferences, you can listen to this amazing podcast, obviously.
24:36
But I do think that it's really important that you have a level
24:40
of self awareness, to be able to understand actually when this is
24:44
happening to you, and when you feel that now, when it becomes a
24:48
physical sensation. So which I felt, where you can kind of feel
24:52
that, almost like that stress, you know, we've been there where
24:54
you know it's a genuinely physical reaction your body,
24:57
when you you know whether that be fear or that be pressure. Or
25:00
whatever that is, it's not intuition. There's a difference
25:02
between intuition and fear, right? And you can feel that
25:04
physical you know. That is your body telling you you know,
25:07
whereas, actually, if you you know, if you record yourself, or
25:11
if you've got a mentor that can kind of coach you and listen
25:14
back, you know, to certain conversations. If you are self
25:18
aware and if you're being objective, you can kind of say,
25:20
well, actually, why am I speaking to that person, that
25:23
stance or that style, or whatever it is, Am I speaking to
25:26
them on a book I've just read vertical or horizontal
25:29
relationships? And I think for me, it is how I got to that
25:33
journey was, yeah, I mean, I had a pretty I was at the bottom of
25:36
that cycle, you know, I was at the bottom of that kind of
25:39
spiral. And so I think you're right. I don't think, I think I
25:41
think it's very difficult to understand it, unless you've
25:43
been through it, unless you're in it. And I was at the bottom
25:46
of it, and I was like, right, I have to do something about this,
25:48
because this is consuming me, and this isn't, this is not
25:51
making me good at my job. This is not making me, you know, good
25:54
at anything, to be honest with you. So
25:57
what did you do? Then you said I had to do something about it.
25:59
What
26:00
did you do? So, well, this was, I suppose, this was with,
26:03
combined with lots of other things at this at the time,
26:05
right? So I just literally had a bit of a long, hard look at my
26:09
life. Honestly, I had some therapy, and I just realised
26:13
that actually, the types of things that I was doing that was
26:16
leading to me feel, for me to feel totally like an imposter,
26:20
and just, you know, at least it's some pretty negative
26:22
feelings, I think, yeah, I got a coach, I got, like, a mentor, I
26:26
got some therapy and and I quit the thing that was making me
26:29
feel pretty
26:30
sure. So I think what you shared there is exactly what people
26:33
need to hear like you've identified a weakness. It's
26:36
impacting your career, the thing that pays your mortgage funds
26:40
your lifestyle is impacting that, and you've gone and done
26:42
something about it proactively, and you didn't wait until it was
26:45
too late. I
26:46
mean, I was on the verge. Don't be wrong. So I, you know, I
26:49
think, I think with anything when it whether it be imposter
26:52
syndrome or whatever it is, you know, we live in such a fast
26:56
paced world, don't we? Is, you know, I journal, I run, you
27:01
know, I, I'm pretty good at kind of, I guess, sleep, I, you know,
27:04
all the things that we think are going to help us. And I was
27:06
pretty good at doing all of that. I got to the point where I
27:09
was doing all of that, and nothing was making a difference.
27:11
I was not okay. I was just not okay. You know, I think it's
27:14
your ability to think you've got to get yourself out of this, and
27:17
I think only you were responsible for doing that. And
27:20
so when I realised I was not okay, I went and did everything
27:24
I could. And, you know, it took a while. My business wasn't any
27:28
great shape at the time because I'd probably stepped away from
27:30
it a bit too much. We're responsible to turn ourselves
27:33
around. And I think I definitely, yeah, I definitely
27:36
did that. I
27:36
think that's the key. Like, no one's coming to save you. No,
27:38
no. So who did you work with from a coach point of view,
27:41
like, what? What was the kind of brief that you gave that coach?
27:44
So I've had lots of different coaches throughout my whole life
27:46
and mentors. So we've got a non exec now in the business, and,
27:50
you know, I've got some really sharp growth plans, so he's very
27:53
much to support me for that. I've also got a culture coach at
27:56
the moment who is like a leadership and a culture coach
27:58
for me. So I'm really trying to scale my business at the moment.
28:01
And you know, you know, I haven't done it to this level
28:03
before. So for me, it's about really understanding who I am,
28:07
where my like, blind spots are just in 360 degree feedback that
28:11
was fun. And you know, it's about kind of understanding what
28:14
type of culture I want to create in the business. So, you know,
28:17
there is a different person for you on a coaching or on a
28:21
mentoring, on an exec perspective, depend it on the
28:24
different time in your life, right? Depend on the different
28:27
phase that you're going through, dependent on your goals,
28:29
dependent on your ambitions. So, you know, I think you have to,
28:33
and sometimes you don't have to have someone formal. So, yeah,
28:36
there's loads of other business owners that I like go for walks
28:38
with, or sometimes wine with. Do you know, I mean, you just chat
28:42
and say how it is, and because it's not, it's not all rosy.
28:44
It's really, really tough running a business. And
28:48
actually, a lot of that, I would say, I don't know, quote, don't
28:52
quote me on this, but I reckon, like 75% of that is here. And if
28:57
you don't get that sorted, it's a really dark place to be, and I
29:01
think that's one of the key things that I've done over and
29:04
I'm getting better, I'm not perfect at is you've got to be
29:06
able to be vulnerable, you've got to be able to be honest,
29:09
you've got to be able to not let the noise bother you. You've got
29:12
to be able to surround yourself with good people and have frank
29:15
conversations, and you've got to have boundaries, and they're the
29:18
things that have kind of, you know, I've worked on a lot over
29:21
the
29:21
years. It sounds like what you've done really well is
29:23
surround yourself with people that have almost been on the
29:26
journey that you want to go on, had the success that you want to
29:29
have, and people that you can just be open and honest with and
29:32
have the conversation. Because without that, you're just left
29:36
to your own devices. After more than a decade in banking and
29:38
entrepreneurs forum. You obviously mentioned them. That's
29:42
how that job would have come about. Then you sat up and took
29:45
the leap to set up just Williams in 2015 How long did you have
29:49
the idea before actually going, I'm doing
29:52
it. Oh, you like this, right? So I said when I was 15, I'm going
29:56
to be a CEO by the time I'm 30, right? I had no. Idea what that
30:01
was going to be in. But I think, you know, I was surrounded by
30:03
parents that ran their own business, and I did one of my
30:06
modules for my math, for my MBA, was nature, nurture,
30:08
entrepreneurism, which I think is quite interesting anyway, but
30:12
yeah, I'd said, basically, when I'm 15, right, by the time I'm
30:14
30, I'm going to be Chief Exec. So I had no idea for what, or
30:17
like, what I mean I was, I only had two staff, but, you know,
30:19
technically, kind of got it. So when I left the bank, I did an
30:24
MBA and specialised in sales psychology. Worked for the
30:27
entrepreneurs forum for two years. Realised during my time
30:31
there, through a lot of the data that they collected for people
30:34
that run their own businesses, there were two issues that just
30:37
came up time and time again for and this was based on businesses
30:42
that were growing and, you know, yeah, the based on success
30:46
metrics, in essence. And the two aspects were access to finance,
30:50
so always cash related. And finally, returning sales people.
30:54
And they were the two things that I think it was like, fight,
30:56
no, it wasn't. It must have been about seven or eight quarters
31:00
just came up time and time again. And I was like, there's
31:03
an issue here. And I was very aware that, you know, even
31:05
though I never had an actual sales role, as in, in the job
31:09
title, I was literally doing that day in, day out in Bangkok,
31:11
right? And, you know, I started talking to family and talking to
31:16
other people, and was aware that I it just has such a negative
31:19
association compared to our European American counterparts,
31:23
you know, the the association with sales is just not a good
31:26
one. And I was like, there has to be a different way of doing
31:29
it, you know. And speaking to a lot of the owners of the
31:31
businesses, they were hiring sales people. They were, you can
31:34
guess, this lasting less than two years, not working out,
31:38
wasting a lot of money, and they were just going through this
31:41
cycle time and time again, and kind of going, Well, nothing's
31:45
changing. And I was like, well, it has to be a different way. So
31:48
that's really when I, you know, I did my, did my MBA at the same
31:53
time. So did and specialise in, as I say, sales psychology. And
31:57
looked at and looked at options, and then, yeah, set up, set up
32:01
the business and doing sales consultancy, which obviously has
32:04
kind of expanded
32:06
and grown since then. And you've obviously got two parents that
32:09
have got their
32:09
own businesses. Well, they wanted one sets retired, the
32:11
other one's not now, but, yeah, but when you're
32:13
doing that, how much did you speak to them about this? Did
32:16
they encourage you? They try and put you off. Do they give you
32:18
any words of advice? I
32:19
think they were like, go for it. But, you know, I was earning
32:23
great money working in the banking industry. It was very
32:27
ethical. I can assure you, I was earning great money in the
32:30
banking industry. And when I worked a lot, I did what I've
32:33
always been an absolute kind of I've always had a very strong
32:36
work ethic, probably, you know, from my parents. But yeah, I
32:39
think they were like, you know, just give it a go. Give it a go.
32:44
I do know what it's awful. I don't remember what they said. I
32:46
remember asking somebody in the first six months if it got easy,
32:49
and they were like, No, you just get better. I was like, Yeah, I
32:53
keep telling myself, and look that newer every day. I'm like,
32:55
come on, you've got this.
32:58
So 10 years later, you've built a BEC Corp, you've trained 1000s
33:02
created recognisable brands, certainly here in the Northeast.
33:05
You know, when I've told people, come on the podcast, they know
33:07
exactly who you are and what's going on. If you were to start
33:11
again today, what's the one thing you would do differently
33:15
to accelerate your journey?
33:16
Oh, do you know? I know the answer to this straight away. I
33:20
would hire quicker and more and more senior, and I would
33:24
outsource more. I think there's a real issue when you set up a
33:27
business, regardless of what you're in, what what sector or
33:29
industry, and you think, you think you should know all the
33:32
answers, so you don't ask the questions, because you feel
33:35
like, well, I've set up my own business. I should know this.
33:38
And you know, you I didn't take as many risks as I should have
33:41
done in terms of hiring senior people. So I would have hired
33:44
quicker, and I would have outsourced more. So What
33:46
stopped you from hindsight in the first place, was it cash
33:49
cash flow? Right? I was going to say, was it cash flow? Yeah,
33:52
when you say high, saying what kind of level we talking about.
33:54
So obviously there was just me when I set up, but I would have
33:58
hired more senior sales and marketing professionals sooner.
34:02
Obviously, we're at a different stage now in the business, but I
34:05
think when I first set up, I tried to do too much,
34:09
and was it all your own money in the business? Okay? So that also
34:13
adds a different dimension where you've really
34:14
got to, yeah, I didn't get any investment. And, you know, we've
34:17
pretty much, we've grown organically. As I say, we're at
34:19
a stage where we've got quite a lot of changes happening with
34:22
the business. Happening with the business at the moment, so we're
34:24
in a very different position to what we were then,
34:26
understandably, 10 years on. Was that a conscious decision just
34:29
to bootstrap it yourself, rather
34:31
than get investment? Yeah, it was because I think, you know,
34:33
it was the first business I had. I wasn't 100% sure where it was
34:37
going to go. And, yeah, I think it was probably a little bit of
34:41
naivety as well, if I'm
34:42
honest, right? Okay, so we're hire more senior, yeah, take
34:45
some risks. Outsource quicker and outsource quicker. What?
34:48
What kind of things would you outsource quicker, like,
34:51
perhaps, so I probably would have got, like a VA virtual
34:54
assistant. I would have outsourced some of the finance
34:58
stuff quicker, yeah, and. Thing that, you know, I think you try
35:02
to wear so many hats, right? You know, I was used to wearing very
35:06
well, and I'd done, you have to hit the ground running. I had a
35:10
mortgage, and I had a lodger for just over a year, which was
35:15
just, I've got some horrendous stories from that. I'll tell you
35:19
over over a pint. But I took a lodging because, you know, I
35:22
earned no money, you know. And I had we in, you know, I barely
35:25
paid myself for the first year and a half. So, you know, it's
35:28
kind of that you just do what you can to make it work. We
35:33
didn't have any, you know, we didn't even have necessarily
35:36
monthly reoccurring revenue. Now, then, as I say, our model
35:38
is very, very different, but we grew, I think, in the first
35:42
three years, we grew up to 17 staff, which was crackers, and
35:46
then the wheels came off, and then, yeah, it was, it was a bit
35:48
tough. And now we're kind of back where we are now,
35:50
well, and make a success that you have done 10 years later as
35:55
part of that journey you you talk about, I mean, going to 17
35:58
people in three years, it feels like you've learned some lessons
36:01
there, because I say the wheels come off, tell us what you're
36:03
comfortable with, but when you say the wheels come
36:05
off, what do you mean? So we grew very, very quickly. So when
36:08
I said I didn't outsource quickly off, do you know? I
36:10
mean, it was like that was in the first year. So we grew
36:12
remarkably quickly. We were kind of, we won loads of awards, we
36:16
won loads of new clients, and honestly, we didn't have the
36:19
infrastructure to cope with it. Obviously, I didn't know that at
36:22
the time. You know, we were just growing at such a rate. I
36:25
appreciate it's relative. But, you know, we were growing at
36:28
such a rate that I was very quickly, kind of, you know, lots
36:32
of people start a business because they like what they do.
36:35
Leading a business is very different to starting something
36:38
when it's just you and you do, you know. So I'm quite honest
36:40
and open about it, and saying I was probably a little bit out of
36:43
my debt and I didn't have the people around me to that I do
36:46
now to support that growth. And also, you know, our clients
36:50
terms were short, we were probably were naive. So, you
36:53
know, we were on six. I mean, it's, I'm laughing at myself
36:58
now, going, you fool. You know, it's quite obvious, isn't it, in
37:01
hindsight, right? So you'll love this, and I can't believe we did
37:03
this, but how I used to be crap at sales. I have admitted this.
37:07
So we ourselves some of our because we worked across
37:09
multiple industries. So some of them had, like, you know, nine
37:13
month pipelines. Like, 12 months pipelines, our contract terms
37:16
were six months. Like, course, it wasn't going to work. Do you
37:19
know what I mean? So, you know, we weren't evidence in that ROI
37:23
within the first six months, because, actually we but we
37:26
developed a really strong pipeline that was clearly going
37:28
to drop us, you know, further further down the field. So, you
37:30
know, it caused us a, you know, some issues in terms of
37:33
retention rate with staff and with clients. And, yeah, we kind
37:38
of went, this is this is not sustainable. And it wasn't,
37:41
I think there's an important segue here into just Williams.
37:44
So it was a sales and marketing consultancy where people would
37:47
outsource. Ironically, the thing that you're saying you would
37:49
have done yourself quicker is to outsource, and
37:51
that's what your business was. Yeah, we're always good at
37:53
telling other people, it's just doing ourselves, right,
37:56
exactly, but yeah, so that challenge, therefore outsourcing
37:59
sales to you. You're building pipeline for them in a six month
38:03
agreement, but their sales cycles
38:05
Jessica Williams: up to 12 months. Yes, what could possibly
38:07
go wrong?
38:09
Mark Ackers: It's easy to sit here with 2020, I know, right,
38:11
and look
38:12
Unknown: back. I mean, it's pretty obvious when you say it
38:14
out loud anyway, but, yeah, but, but I think
38:15
Mark Ackers: part of it as well, though, like you say, if you're
38:17
not able to hire senior people, and you're hiring people where
38:20
everyone looks up to you, that is difficult. And you are going
38:23
to drop balls, and sometimes you drop the wrong ones. But I think
38:27
that's something I've always sort of said to myself, is
38:29
you're going to drop balls, make sure you drop the right ones,
38:31
Unknown: and it's hard. I mean, I wish we could all do that. How
38:34
do you manage that?
38:35
Mark Ackers: Oh, didn't say do it well. So you say the wheels
38:39
come off after three
38:41
Unknown: years? Yeah, probably three four, yeah, talk to us,
38:44
being
38:44
Mark Ackers: the owner of the business, being the person that
38:46
buck stops with. Like, tell us about that. Like, what? How did
38:50
you cope with that? I think
38:50
it kind of, do you know what it was probably, I'm saying three
38:53
four years. It was probably about, well, no, wasn't it kind
38:56
of coincided, actually, it was five years, sorry, because it
38:58
coincided with the the pandemic. Don't you think? Like, like,
39:01
like, does anyone else, I think that's like a time warp, like,
39:03
it feels like it happened like 25 years ago, but yeah, it
39:06
coincided with that, actually. And, you know, I think
39:10
ultimately it the book stops with you, you know, and this is
39:14
probably one of in regards to our earlier conversation, is
39:18
where you kind of have to put those boundaries up and you kind
39:20
of have to say, right? Okay, so I'm gonna have to make some
39:23
really tough calls here, and everyone's gonna like me and
39:26
everyone's gonna like the outcomes, but ultimately, my job
39:29
as the owner and leader of the business is to do the right
39:32
thing for the business. Now, as a BEC core, our job is to use
39:36
our business for a force for good. So we believe in
39:38
stakeholder equity in essence. So it's quite different just to
39:41
a limited company, which is limited, you know, if you, if
39:43
you're limited by guarantee, obviously it's shareholder
39:46
equity, not stakeholder equity. So I am governed legally. Our
39:49
articles of association are different. So I'm governed by a
39:53
different kind of creed. So for me, it is about our
39:56
stakeholders, every single one of them. So you know, you have
39:59
to make some tough. Calls, you have to change your model, and
40:05
you have to keep going, and you have to have some amazing people
40:07
around you to be able to help you do that. And you have to be
40:10
really frank and really honest with yourself and say, right,
40:12
okay, why did this go wrong? And these are not questions that you
40:16
answer in 24 hours or even two or three months. But, you know,
40:19
I think maybe my banking background and being relatively,
40:22
you know, I'm not risk averse, but I'm certainly risk
40:24
conscious. Is that, you know, I've always made sure that we
40:27
are well protected as an organisation and well financed,
40:30
and I don't take unnecessary risks.
40:32
Talk to me about tough calls, tough days, what? What was the
40:36
absolute bottom moment for you, and the toughest moment in that
40:40
period? I
40:40
think I had a week where, like, five people handed the notice
40:43
in. That was a bit soul destroying, you know. And we're
40:45
at the point where, as I say, we didn't, we didn't, you know,
40:48
we've never made anyone redundant, but we, I think the
40:51
writing was on the wall. And that was really, that was hard,
40:56
because it's, it kind of still feels personal rejection, you
41:01
know. And actually, in sales or leading a business, Rejection
41:04
hurts, it does. And I think that's another issue from a
41:07
sales perspective, isn't it, which kind of goes to LinkedIn
41:09
with the other things that we've talked about is that, you know,
41:11
you can't make rejection personal, but sales rejection
41:14
and leadership rejection are different. I know that, but you
41:18
know, ultimately, even a few weeks later, I was like, my god,
41:21
they saved me from having to make them redundant. But at the
41:24
time, it was like, What do you mean? You're leaving? You're
41:27
kind of having that, like, ridiculous conversation you had
41:29
where, you know, actually it's a BEC, it's like a benefit that
41:32
they're leaving to the business. But actually, if it still feels
41:34
really personal, you know. And you know, during covid,
41:36
obviously we were, we were doing sales and marketing for clients.
41:39
Some of them wanted to put us on hold, you know? I mean, I
41:42
remember single handedly moving our office into, like, a tiny,
41:46
little office myself one Saturday, you know, what? On
41:49
Sunday, you know. And like, shifting all the desks and,
41:52
like, you know, it was that's quite soul destroying. Well, you
41:55
know, you're paying rent for something for like, a year, and
41:57
no one's allowed in the office, or whatever. And then, you know,
42:00
so lots of situations, you know, like that. I do think people,
42:04
regardless of what industry you're in, people is always one
42:07
of the hardest things of running any business, regardless of
42:09
sector or anything it's it's people that's the hardest
42:13
aspect.
42:13
Do you ever come close to just giving up during that period? Do
42:16
you know
42:16
what? I literally had a talk with somebody today about that
42:19
bizarre Lake because I think it's some people call it
42:21
motivation, some people call it focus. Some people call it Mojo,
42:24
whatever. But I think, yeah, it's hard, right? You know, from
42:29
a cash flow perspective, from a from a from a mental like
42:33
awareness perspective, from a just trying to keep your head
42:35
above water perspective, like, you know, the thing is, is about
42:38
and actually this is the same in sales and leading a business is
42:41
you have to perform every single day. Yeah, you have to choose to
42:45
turn up. You have to choose to bring that energy. You have to
42:48
bloody well choose that you're going to have a good day.
42:50
Because if you don't, you let it rule you. And I'm not being
42:52
cliche in terms of saying that. So that's very much similar in
42:55
sales as it is in leading a business, because I have to
42:57
choose every day to come in and be positive and positively
43:00
influence my team. That's a choice. When I think you start
43:04
to waver a little bit and you know that, you know it's not
43:08
that you let your emotions affect other people around you,
43:12
but I think when you kind of just think, I've just got
43:15
nothing left, then, yeah, I think you have to question that.
43:18
But that's ability to manage your right energy levels and
43:21
know yourself and have that self awareness to know that. Yeah,
43:26
I've had some really, really, kind of tough times, and I've
43:28
had some really, really, but I don't know a business owner that
43:31
hasn't It's your ability to pick yourself back up. It's grit.
43:35
It's absolutely if you know what you're trying to achieve, right?
43:38
It's and that's why I'm like, I believe in purpose led
43:40
businesses, is that I'm very, very clear about what I'm trying
43:43
to achieve. So that doesn't make it easy. That doesn't make it,
43:45
you know, like, I'm making it sound easy. It's not, you know,
43:48
the punch bug in my gym. It's like, great fun on some days. Do
43:52
you know what I mean? Like, bottle of red wine. Love it. I'm
43:54
not saying any this is right? I'm just saying we all have our
43:56
different coping mechanisms, and I think the more that you know
43:59
your own you can you can be more consistent in from sales
44:03
perspective or from a leadership perspective, in terms of and it
44:06
is about surrounding yourself with good people. So important,
44:09
when you say, surround yourselves by good people,
44:12
people could interpret that differently. What do you mean by
44:14
that?
44:15
I think it's having a mixture of people that you can talk to
44:19
openly. So whether it be coaches, mentors, whatever that
44:22
looks like, I think it's having a good mixture of friends,
44:25
family around you, but I think it's having a really good team
44:27
that will support you in that well, that will challenge you,
44:29
but are there to positively influence and bring the same
44:32
level of energy? And I think that's really, really important,
44:35
that the that you've got that purpose centred leadership,
44:38
which allows you to focus on on the same goal in a business, and
44:42
that you are kind of dedicated in terms of achieving that. What
44:45
I'm
44:45
definitely picking up, Jessica is just how you have got
44:48
yourself to a place where you will just surround yourself with
44:51
the right people, but you'll open up, you'll communicate,
44:54
you'll share what, what's working, what's not working.
44:56
Turn to people for advice. Unfortunately, so many people
44:59
don't do that. They sort of live in their own mind, and they
45:03
don't open up and they don't share. Why do you think that is?
45:06
It's almost like you've beaten me to my own questions. To you,
45:11
people want to hear your answer to that.
45:13
So my take on it is, I think we are fear, we fear perception, we
45:20
fear failure. And I think people, yeah, I think people,
45:24
some people actually don't want to help themselves. What do you
45:27
mean by that? So, you know, I think some people in, as I
45:32
appreciate, this is slightly controversial, but I don't think
45:34
everybody chooses to help themselves. I don't think
45:37
everybody wants to actually get out of the situation that
45:39
they're in with that mindset, because it's protective, and
45:42
because actually that means they'll have to deal with their
45:44
emotions, perhaps slightly controversial.
45:47
I don't know, like I what I do know is people show, I suppose I
45:51
didn't know where you were going with that, if you were thinking
45:53
that people must enjoy
45:55
potentially that I think most people do what you know,
45:58
absolutely want to, you know, be the best version of themselves,
46:02
or whatever terminology you want to use. But, you know, I think
46:06
it is. You know, self reflection is really, really important. You
46:09
know, I'm a massive I ref, you know, I reflect on everything. I
46:13
journal loads I always have done. I have a coach that kind
46:16
of holds a mirror up for me. I have some really honest friends.
46:19
I have, you know, people in business that surround that I
46:22
surround myself with. And I, you know, I don't let myself get
46:25
away with stuff. I hold myself accountable. And I, you know,
46:29
I'm a massive fan of journaling, as I say, in terms of the
46:32
business and also personally, because it helps you keep so
46:36
accountable. And I think if you don't have that level of self
46:38
awareness, it's the one thing that I'd say, you know, if
46:40
there's another book that you read, I read, I read loads and
46:43
loads and loads, but I have a real desire for constant
46:46
improvement of myself and listen to books, read books. That's one
46:52
of the reasons I'm doing the doctorate. But I read loads of
46:54
books on emotional intelligence, and it really changed my
46:56
perception and also the I think we have a responsibility when we
47:00
work in a team environment, is that how we impact other people?
47:03
And I don't think it's fair that sometimes the way that we impact
47:07
other people, and I think if you're not aware of the impact
47:09
that you're having on those people, which is a negative one,
47:13
then you know what makes me quite uncomfortable. So, you
47:16
know, I think you you have to be I think one of the key, another
47:19
key attribute for sales people is you have to be inquisitive,
47:23
right? You have to be curious. That's about yourself as well.
47:25
If you think that you're the finished article, then no one
47:28
can help you, but you shouldn't you the minute you stop
47:30
learning, you start dying genuinely, because you have to
47:33
be that. As I said, I know it's really cliche, but you have to
47:36
be the best version of yourself. And you can't do that unless
47:39
you're really self reflective, and you look at yourself and go,
47:42
Okay, how can I get better? How can I get to what I'm trying to
47:45
achieve? How can I help my team get to where they need to get
47:48
to? How can I, you know, set, you know, achieve the goals that
47:51
I want. But you have to start with self
47:52
reflection. You've signed your team up to another E Learning
47:55
course. You've hired a trainer to come in and run a workshop.
47:59
But guess what? Six months later, pipeline and performance
48:02
is still lumpy. My sales coach turns learning into doing. We
48:05
evaluate everyone on your team, we identify with real data the
48:10
critical gaps that are holding them back, and then we remedy
48:13
it. We match each person to their dream coach and provide
48:17
consistent one to one coaching to help them fulfil their
48:21
potential and hit the number less one size fits all,
48:24
training, more personalised support, which results in the
48:27
growth of your team. That's predictable sales execution.
48:30
That's my sales coach really hitting like the key themes that
48:38
make elite sales people across this podcast, and I'll try and
48:41
get them all. But we spoke about need for approval. We spoke
48:45
about ability to handle rejection. We've spoke about
48:47
trust. You've just talked about their accountability. Spoke
48:51
about being inquisitive. You spoke about emotional
48:54
intelligence. Like these are all key attributes that you see in
48:57
elite sales people and leaders really, very hard to interview
49:01
for, though, a lot of those things, aren't they? And I'm
49:04
guessing you've had this in the past, where you've hired what
49:07
you believe to be good people, and then you've realised they
49:10
haven't got those traits. How quickly do you remove them?
49:14
Oh, God. I mean, what's that old adage that you hire high,
49:18
slowly, and you fire quick? Something like this. Obviously,
49:21
that's not the phrase is this, it's something like that, isn't
49:23
it? Yeah, I mean, definitely it's. They are really difficult
49:28
traits to hire for. You know, we do various different type of
49:33
psychometric testing. I get my culture coach or my non
49:36
executive on some of the final interviews. And actually, what
49:41
we've done, we've, we've hired quite a few people recently, is
49:44
we get where, for example, a sales manager, or hire a sales
49:47
manager with, with, with, kind of a more senior member of staff
49:52
or a business admin have interviewed that so they've,
49:54
they've, they've kind of aligned the role and helped interview.
49:57
If I knew the answer that question, I would never. Ever
50:00
have any staffing issues, and we would be growing to the nth
50:03
degree. I think it's a really tough one. I think you've just
50:07
got to, you know, you if they're not right, you've got to get
50:09
them out quickly, unless you see potential. And so I will say
50:12
that unless, unless you see, because there's a difference
50:16
between cart and won't. So for me, it's very much around their
50:19
if they want to get better, I'll absolutely support them get
50:22
better. If they're a dickhead, you get them out straight away.
50:25
I had a bit of an HR issue because I put on my wall at
50:28
dickhead free zone,
50:29
who's head of HR for your business? You'd be right then.
50:32
Jessica Williams: That was a while ago now, but yeah, so
50:34
Mark Ackers: you mentioned, I don't know, maybe a half hour
50:37
ago, about doing a 360 feedback assessment. And you spoke there
50:42
about your goals and where you're trying to get to. You
50:44
spoke about, I really love the phrase, if you're not learning
50:47
your dying. Bit dramatic, but hey, but I really like so my
50:53
question to you is, and you probably work this out there,
50:55
what are you trying to work on? Where's your big flaws today?
50:58
What was on surface from that feedback, and what are you doing
51:02
to improve on
51:03
that? So I'm really, we're in a real growth phase in the
51:05
business at the moment, and sometimes, I mean, it's about a
51:10
year, over a year now, since I've done kind of client facing
51:12
work. So, you know, it took me quite a long time to step away
51:15
from that, to kind of lose, lose control, and I don't know
51:19
everything that's going on, and I think I'm still learning on
51:22
how to deal with that. You know, that's quite just to let my kind
51:26
of team, and as my marketing manager, keeps telling me, it's
51:29
not all about me. So, you know, we've got a real ambition,
51:32
obviously, that the business is it's difficult scaling a service
51:36
based business based on one person, which is what I've done.
51:39
So the business has to be more than just me. From for multiple
51:42
from multiple perspective, you know, perspectives, it has to be
51:45
more than just me. So, you know, for me, it is about learning how
51:49
to step away, learning how to let my team take over. I'm
51:53
learning, I'm learning a little bit about that. I'm not saying
51:56
I'm a control freak. Come tonight to know what's going on.
51:58
And, you know, it's kind of like I've got a bit of FOMO, really,
52:02
as to what's as to what's going on. So I'm learning that that's
52:05
quite a big thing. And, you know, I'm learning that
52:09
decisions are being made in my business without me now, not
52:11
saying I like it. That's happening, and that's the right
52:13
thing to do. You know, it's kind of my baby, my baby's growing
52:15
up, and it's like, you're proud of it, but at the same time
52:18
you're like, What do you mean? You don't need me. Of course,
52:22
you need me. So, you know, I'm learning that at the moment to
52:25
kind of like, step away, to BEC off. And, you know, it's,
52:30
that's, and that's quite interesting. And, you know, also
52:33
trying to manage a scale of business from a cash flow
52:37
perspective, from a, you know, from lots of different angles.
52:40
I've never, I've never, I've never looked at that before. And
52:42
we're making some big changes. We merged the two businesses
52:44
together a few months ago. So again, these are all new
52:47
situations. We have never merged two businesses together. We're
52:50
in the process of launching an employee management ownership
52:52
scheme. I've never done that before, so we're doing that. You
52:55
know, we've got kind of quite a lot of big things that we're
52:58
looking at where, you know, we we may be or may not be looking
53:01
for finance. We may or may not be looking for acquisitions. So
53:04
there's quite a lot that may or may not be happening and and I
53:08
start my doctorate in three weeks. So, you know, it's like,
53:12
kind of Yeah, let's do this. So I've got quite a lot to learn,
53:16
right? I
53:16
mean, it sounds like it. I mean, using your analogy like the
53:19
business being your baby, yeah? Until you get that, and at some
53:22
Jessica Williams: point it's really pretty. By the way, don't
53:23
call it ugly.
53:26
Mark Ackers: You can get ugly babies, though. We should
53:27
definitely cut that out. Some will come from in the comments,
53:30
the way they've got on me this morning. They probably will put
53:35
it in the trailer, sticking that analogy, business being your
53:38
baby, and decisions happening without you, and you have to
53:41
step away. I always sort of liken that to when you teach a
53:44
child to ride a bike, you have to accept they're going to fall
53:47
off. I remember saying that to my boy, yeah, interesting.
53:51
Called William, yeah. And I said to him, you know, before I let
53:54
him go, I was like, right? You just to, you know, you are going
53:58
to hurt yourself. You are going to fall off and you're gonna and
54:02
we started on the grass, then we went to the concrete, because
54:04
that is a lot harder on the grass, and just knowing when you
54:08
let them go, because I couldn't keep up with him, he's gonna
54:11
fall off. But it's difficult, isn't it? Like when it's your
54:13
business? One of the key things I'm picking up, Jessica is the
54:16
importance your mindset plays. You're very self aware. You're
54:19
obviously always trying to improve and your mindset. I
54:22
mean, you've run 13 marathons, including some international
54:25
ones, but ultra marathons as well. What is an ultra marathon?
54:29
Specifically, Insanity,
54:32
technically, technically, it is anything above a marathon, but
54:36
if you're kind of a serious runner, it kind of has to be
54:40
over 30 miles. I've only done two ultras. Oh,
54:42
just, just, just the two. Oh, we won't talk about that. Then. I
54:45
mean, you've got to have an incredible mindset to run ultra
54:48
marathons and marathons. And yeah, you've run 13, just
54:51
jumping slightly out. But what's the best International Marathon
54:54
you've
54:55
run? So I've done five internationals. So actually,
54:58
kind of pretty much decided 30. In three years as well, which
55:01
kind of makes it even more, a little bit more insane. I didn't
55:04
always say I was totally balanced with my decisions, but
55:06
I think again, one of the things that I had a thing to prove
55:09
myself, which I've definitely done now. My last one was
55:11
Vancouver in May 2025, and that was pretty special. That was
55:16
pretty amazing. I loved Lisbon. It was so hot. But Lisbon,
55:20
Lisbon and Vancouver. I think of my favourite internationals in
55:24
the UK, I would say, oh my god, I hated Kilda. I can't even tell
55:29
you how much I hated that run. I just hate Kilda. Never,
55:33
honestly, I've never been so miserable in my whole life.
55:36
Anyway, sorry, don't ever do Kilda marathon. Yorkshire
55:39
marathon, where I got a PB was probably my favourite,
55:42
very good. And you really, you compare running to, like running
55:46
a business. Tell me more. Tell me more
55:48
about that. I'm a I'm generally a massive advocate for fitness
55:51
and mental agility. I think they for me, you know, finding that
55:55
balance between, you know, I've always been quite into my
55:57
fitness, and it gives me a focus, it gives me a clarity. It
56:02
gives me headspace. It gives me dedication to whatever I'm
56:06
trying to achieve. And because I'm quite goal driven, I've
56:09
normally kind of aligned. So, you know, I did Mont Blanc was
56:12
probably one of my biggest achievements during that three
56:14
year period as well. And it was, you know, aligned to kind of a
56:17
marathon. You set yourself a goal, and you have to, you know,
56:20
you don't just, like, you don't just grow a business. It happens
56:23
you have to align it to a goal. You don't just achieve a sales
56:25
target, because it happens you have to align it to a goal. And
56:28
a marathon is very similar, that you don't just turn up on a race
56:30
day having not, you know, having not prepared. It's about a multi
56:33
factor of things in terms of, actually, the consistency.
56:36
Consistency is everything right in life, in whatever role you're
56:40
in. For me, especially in sales, consistency is really, really
56:43
important. It's about doing your preparation. Really, really
56:45
important. It's about making sure that you are in the best
56:48
space that you can be, you know. And a marathon is a lot about,
56:53
you know, you're this, this bit, you know, you are far more
56:56
capable physically than you think you are.
56:59
I'll take your word for it, in terms of, you talk about, like
57:03
everything sort of coming together, etc, you've got the
57:05
well, you created the SME conference. Tell us what that is
57:11
and who should attend.
57:12
So this is the fourth year that we've been running this
57:15
conference. For the last three years, it's been called sales,
57:18
service and success. So it's literally just been aimed at the
57:21
sales market. But since our rebrand to the SME agency, which
57:24
is sales marketing events, we've rebranded our conference to the
57:27
SME conference. So it is on the 23rd of October. It is at when
57:32
you're told you are one of our keynote speakers, and it is for
57:35
anyone within the North East region or further afield who is
57:39
looking to grow their business, who is looking to expand their
57:44
sales team, their marketing team, or hire a senior sales and
57:48
marketing professional, and is interested in learning from
57:51
people that are all the things we've talked about that, say it
57:54
is it, say it is it. Is that kind of lead by example. And so
57:58
we've got some amazing speakers there, obviously yourself on the
58:01
sales space, on the marketing space, people that are kind of
58:04
experts in terms of the way that you speak, the way that you
58:07
articulate. We've got some, yeah, we've just got a really
58:09
good culture guy there. So we've got some really interesting
58:12
speakers.
58:13
Well, I'm very much looking forward to it. And tickets
58:15
available now. They are, indeed. It's an incredible venue.
58:18
Winyard Hall. I have spoken there once before. Oh, all
58:21
right, I was the best man there. So this would be a very
58:24
different type of talk. I don't think, I hope it will be
58:27
slightly, I think won't be as funny. Jessica, there's,
58:30
there's, there's loads that I've just not got to cover with you.
58:33
I definitely would want to do a part two. If you had to pick one
58:36
defining moment in your career that's really shaped the success
58:39
of your business and where you are today.
58:43
What would it be? I would say, having to shut my office down
58:46
and all those redundant, all those not redundancy, sorry,
58:50
having to shut the office down for covid. And no, let me start
58:53
again. I think having the failure that we did in year,
58:57
kind of four or five really shaped me to to be the person
59:01
that I am from the business side, I think climb Mont Blanc
59:05
shaped me to be on a personal side, to be as resilient and
59:09
determined as I am.
59:10
So it's, it's really rising from adversity and and challenges,
59:15
and it feels like you've managed to see what is, you know,
59:18
unprecedented with the with the pandemic, and what would be
59:22
unprecedented for me climbing Mont Blanc, but thanks. I'll
59:28
take your word for it, but being able to take from those lessons
59:32
and build from on there has been instrumental for you. So I
59:35
suppose the lesson and the takeaway for people is, when you
59:37
are being challenged, it's an opportunity to grow. And what
59:41
can you what can you what can you learn surrounding it with
59:43
the right people? The
59:44
key thing that I will say in regards to that is you don't
59:46
always see that opportunity as it's happening, but it's your
59:49
ability to reflect afterwards. So, you know, none of us in
59:51
that, in that really difficult, challenging time, can kind of
59:54
go, oh yeah, this is great, but it's your ability to reflect and
59:58
adapt afterwards.
59:59
Amazing. Yeah, I'm going to round up or off. I'm going to
1:00:02
round off with a new feature that I'd like to introduce. I
1:00:06
want you to ask a question for my next guest, and it can be any
1:00:10
question you want.
1:00:11
I don't know who your next guest is, though, nor do I Oh,
1:00:13
wonderful. How have you aligned your personal values to your own
1:00:17
professional growth?
1:00:18
I love it. Jessica, genuinely say I'm just scrolling here on
1:00:21
my note. There's so much I've not got to ask you, but this has
1:00:24
been an amazing episode. I love how open, honest you've been. I
1:00:28
think people can take so much from what you've gone through,
1:00:31
and there's just so many nuggets we've touched upon that I think
1:00:34
it's gonna be a great episode for people to do. Thank you for
1:00:36
coming all the way to offices. Appreciate not too far for you,
1:00:40
but it's great to have you here, and I look forward to getting
1:00:43
that I can't work out if you like white wine, red wine or
1:00:45
beer, because we spoke about all of them, but having a drink in
1:00:47
the future, and I definitely would like to do the second
1:00:50
episode in the future.
1:00:50
Unknown: Count me in red wine. Thank you for having me. You.